Speaker 1: I'm also questioning where has Jamie Diamond been? Has anybody been?
Speaker 1: He's been pretty quiet, and I wonder what that's about,
Speaker 1: Especially with you know, a lot of these other big
Speaker 1: investment banks and asset managers coming out in favor of this.
Speaker 1: He's really taken a back seat. I find that to
Speaker 1: be His silence is the most deafening for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Remember his last public appearance on Fox. He cursed out
Speaker 3: Brian Armstrong. He says he doesn't like this bill. He
Speaker 3: was really angry.
Speaker 2: Maybe the pr folks said, hey, take a break.
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Speaker 3: Hey folks, welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast Crypto water
Speaker 3: Cooler series where Amanda and I dive into the latest
Speaker 3: details around crypto and what you need to know.
Speaker 2: Amanda great to see you.
Speaker 1: Great to see you too. Happy Friday.
Speaker 2: Happy Friday, Amanda.
Speaker 3: Loads and loads of news to talk about, lots around
Speaker 3: the Clarity Act and much more. We got to talk
Speaker 3: about the ethics agreements, well, I should say disagreements, because
Speaker 3: there's a lot of negotiations still happening. The Republicans put
Speaker 3: forth some ethics language really great, but the Democrats are
Speaker 3: still saying we want a little bit more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what was a six hundred and sixteen
Speaker 1: page you know, you know, revision and then you have
Speaker 1: I think it's six Democrats, if I'm not mistaken, who
Speaker 1: are are kind of like the make or break of
Speaker 1: getting this through. So I just I hope it can.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's like Ron Hammond was telling us
Speaker 1: when we were on the trading floor of the New
Speaker 1: York Stock Exchange. It's the government and at the eleventh
Speaker 1: hour they can throw a wrench and so it's like
Speaker 1: you just don't know what they're going to do. You know,
Speaker 1: you and I were both such a champion and previous
Speaker 1: episodes of Also Brooks and all of a sudden she's
Speaker 1: kind of about faced and is singing a different tune.
Speaker 1: So I don't know, we shall see.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of this look, it's the sausage making
Speaker 3: process of I'm going to come heavy handed so that
Speaker 3: we can negotiate. I think, you know, they might be
Speaker 3: trying to play their cards that way because to your point,
Speaker 3: also Brokes, she helped get this bill out of the
Speaker 3: Senate Banking Committee. But the Democrats overall, including her, are saying,
Speaker 3: we want each state attorney general to enforce this, but
Speaker 3: they're all different states. How do you get all these
Speaker 3: people on the same page to be a mess? So
Speaker 3: I don't agree with that, but again, this could be
Speaker 3: a negotiation tactic. Okay, you want us to back off
Speaker 3: on this issue, well give us this issue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you. I was listening to the
Speaker 1: other episode that you do where it's just you and
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you. When you put it in
Speaker 1: the hands of the state, that's you know, first, can
Speaker 1: we get it past at the federal level and focus
Speaker 1: there before we start creating jurisdictions where it kind of
Speaker 1: muddies the water because to your point, different states can
Speaker 1: do things in different that's the beauty of putting it
Speaker 1: at the hands of the state, which I'm all for.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to something we don't even have
Speaker 1: regulation yet. As from a broader perspective, we can't start
Speaker 1: doing that, you know, we have to start somewhere.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you can imagine each state attorney general has
Speaker 3: different perspective. Sure it may have some common ground things,
Speaker 3: but overall they may handle things different. We see it
Speaker 3: right now with different states. New York does things different
Speaker 3: from Florida and then Texas. So it's going to be
Speaker 3: a mess. So I don't think this is the way
Speaker 3: to go forward.
Speaker 1: I completely agree. It's like I said, it has to
Speaker 1: start at the federal level focus bring it back. But
Speaker 1: it seems to me like the Democrats keep kind of
Speaker 1: what's that turn, like filibuster when you're on the floor
Speaker 1: and somebody does something to distract from the actual point.
Speaker 1: That's how I feel it because first and foremost, like
Speaker 1: we have to get back to what this is the innovation,
Speaker 1: This is the future of capital markets. You know, tokenization
Speaker 1: like this is going to really broaden I pos and
Speaker 1: and bring trillions back into this country and and bring
Speaker 1: more people back to the States to to you know,
Speaker 1: empower them to create companies within this space. And all
Speaker 1: of a sudden it's taken a different turn now and
Speaker 1: we're more focused on politicians who are are benefiting from
Speaker 1: and I just feel like we need to get back
Speaker 1: to where we where we started.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And the amount of jobs this is going to
Speaker 3: create is going to be exponential because this technology has
Speaker 3: so many applications. Obviously you have AI, you have robotics
Speaker 3: in these things, and they're all moving in parallel. But
Speaker 3: it's no longer I need to be in the United
Speaker 3: States because I need the infrastructure of the United States,
Speaker 3: the roads, the bridges and all that. No, this is
Speaker 3: all digital. I can go work in the Dubai or
Speaker 3: Australia and build the same company. May you know, could
Speaker 3: you could argue, Okay, well you won't get the same
Speaker 3: access to capital. Yes, but I can still get capital.
Speaker 3: It's just I can still build that business out if
Speaker 3: I want, because.
Speaker 2: It's all digital.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: So we got to get this right.
Speaker 3: But what's surprising, Amanda Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon came
Speaker 3: out yesterday and said, pass the CLARITIAC.
Speaker 2: This is a big contradition. Contradiction.
Speaker 3: Excuse me to what Jamie Diamond and the community banks folks,
Speaker 3: and the ABA, the American bankers Association have been saying
Speaker 3: huge photo confidence here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's about time. I'm happy he sees
Speaker 1: the benefit to this. I'm also questioning where has Jamie
Speaker 1: Diamond been? Has anybody been? He's been pretty quiet, and
Speaker 1: I wonder what that's about, Especially with you know a
Speaker 1: lot of these other a big investment banks and asset
Speaker 1: managers coming out in favor of this. He's really taking
Speaker 1: a back seat. I find that to be His silence
Speaker 1: is the most deafening for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, remember his last public appearance on Fox, he cursed
Speaker 3: out Brian Armstrong.
Speaker 2: He says he doesn't like this bill. He was really angry.
Speaker 2: Maybe the PR folks said, hey, take a break from.
Speaker 1: That's well, you have a good PR team at least
Speaker 1: they said take a step back. But I do find
Speaker 1: did he lose the argument? Does he think he won
Speaker 1: in some way? Or is he coming up with some
Speaker 1: sort of arsenal of he's going to come out that
Speaker 1: would work with something. I don't know. I just find
Speaker 1: his silence to be interesting.
Speaker 2: Well, his pitbull on the leash. Elizabeth Warren is on
Speaker 2: the attack.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw her video as she's
Speaker 3: saying this bill is just going to enriche Donald She's
Speaker 3: making all about Donald Trump. This is not about Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: Does he have some crypto exposure, Yes? Do I wish
Speaker 3: he doesn't he didn't have that, sure, But this is bigger.
Speaker 3: This is about America.
Speaker 2: It's getting jobs, leading in technological innovation.
Speaker 1: That's why I don't understand how you can be so
Speaker 1: against a press. You don't have to like President Trump.
Speaker 1: You know, we've had multiple presidents in recent years that
Speaker 1: I have been not in favor of. But you can't
Speaker 1: be such you can't take such a hard line to
Speaker 1: the point where now you're going to stall innovation in
Speaker 1: this country. You still have to be pro America, right,
Speaker 1: It's like otherwise I don't understand what you're doing. Like there,
Speaker 1: we have to separate. But Elizabeth Warren seems to be
Speaker 1: very emotional and all of her reactions, everything she does.
Speaker 1: I think it's time for her to retire. Yes, it's
Speaker 1: too emotional.
Speaker 3: And a funny thing is, you know, she's very loud.
Speaker 3: She puts on this great show, but she doesn't actually
Speaker 3: get any legislation pass. Don't get me wrong. She has
Speaker 3: influence on the Democratic Party. But the good thing is
Speaker 3: that her bark is louder than her bite is more,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Yeah, but not everybody is
Speaker 3: a fan of what David Sachs is, or excuse me,
Speaker 3: David Solomon. You know, Goldman Sachs has been saying the
Speaker 3: community banks came out and called Goldman Sacks of failure
Speaker 3: at doing banking and deposits, which is ironic. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: That is interesting to me. I don't know what the
Speaker 1: community banks have in their back pockets there, but I
Speaker 1: don't understand that statement at all. I don't know if
Speaker 1: they're just trying to insert themselves into the media cycle
Speaker 1: or what is that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's weird.
Speaker 3: Like Goldman Sachs is one of the most successful banks. Yes,
Speaker 3: they don't handle like the commercial you know, retail banking,
Speaker 3: but they're hugely successful. And it goes back to, you know,
Speaker 3: the falsehood of well this is going to cause deposit flights.
Speaker 3: I'm telling you, I don't think there were average Joe
Speaker 3: and Jane going to the community bank, right, Not the
Speaker 3: big commercial banks and the federal credit unions overnight are
Speaker 3: about to go. Oh let me put all my money
Speaker 3: in stable coins so I can earn yield. No people
Speaker 3: have bills to pay Like I'm a crypto native user,
Speaker 3: been here since twenty sixteen. I put a little bit
Speaker 3: of my money in stable coins, and my money I
Speaker 3: use the everyday normal processes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what will become the community banks. So
Speaker 1: I didn't even think of that until now that they're
Speaker 1: you know, hollering about Goldman Sachs. I do wonder what
Speaker 1: will as you know, traditional finance becomes more and more
Speaker 1: un chain and you already have, as you pointed out,
Speaker 1: the community banks, not a lot of Joe Schmoser going
Speaker 1: there already, and now with the rise of tokenization, what
Speaker 1: will become of them?
Speaker 3: I think kind of what we saw in the banking crisis,
Speaker 3: I believe early twenty twenty three, where some of them
Speaker 3: got absorbed by the bigger banks like Jamie JP Morgan
Speaker 3: and so for I think that's the end goal.
Speaker 2: These bigger banks are going to become more powerful.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's why they're yelling. Yeah, they're treading water.
Speaker 3: Now on the topic of ethics real quick, because we
Speaker 3: interviewed Congressman Brian's Style yesterday. That interview was published this morning.
Speaker 3: He was able to get his bill passed, which bans
Speaker 3: congressome trading stocks in the House. We don't know if
Speaker 3: it's going to pass the Senate, but this is a
Speaker 3: huge win. It seems like there's a larger theme here
Speaker 3: of ethics and cleaning up cong Yeah.
Speaker 1: I love this because it really is about restoring trust
Speaker 1: in the American people too, which has been lost for
Speaker 1: various reasons. I mean, you've even seen President Trump's latest speech,
Speaker 1: which unfortunately he didn't touch on our geopolitical climate. But
Speaker 1: now we're going down the rabbit hole of election fraud
Speaker 1: in this country, and I just think there are a
Speaker 1: lot of things that need to be restored, and this
Speaker 1: is one of them. I think Nancy Pelosi really kind
Speaker 1: of blew the lid. It's been on both sides of
Speaker 1: the aisle, but specifically her for the years of successful
Speaker 1: investing that she and her family had. And it's just
Speaker 1: you hear the salaries of some of these people and
Speaker 1: who are in high office, you know, positions in our government,
Speaker 1: and the salaries are not huge, but yet they own
Speaker 1: multi million dollar homes, you know, with motes around them,
Speaker 1: and you do question that. So I'm happy to see
Speaker 1: and I did ask him yesterday, you know, as this
Speaker 1: complimentary in terms of the ethics issue with clarity, and
Speaker 1: he did say yes, So I hope that that's a
Speaker 1: step forward.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I hope it doesn't get indoors doesn't die.
Speaker 2: You know, by the time it gets to the Senate.
Speaker 3: You know how the game is, right, it's yea fairly
Speaker 3: easy to move bills in the House, but the Senate
Speaker 3: is always the big hurdle. But hopefully they can do
Speaker 3: this and get it right because it's time for a change.
Speaker 3: It's ridiculous what they've been doing. And I mean, Nancy
Speaker 3: Pelosi is the I mean the rock star of insider trading, right,
Speaker 3: the greatest trader of all time?
Speaker 1: Am Yoh yeah. You know what's wild to me, Tony,
Speaker 1: is that people who work in finance, who aren't even
Speaker 1: on the trading side right there, may be in the
Speaker 1: equity research part. They have huge clauses in their contracts
Speaker 1: of they are not allowed to invest, they're not allowed
Speaker 1: to play the stock market because they do have access
Speaker 1: to research reports, to analysts reports. And it's crazy how
Speaker 1: many restrictions are in place for an employee of an
Speaker 1: investment bank but not our politicians.
Speaker 3: Big hypocrisy, and they need to fix it and maybe
Speaker 3: part of it is taking blockchain tech, and I think
Speaker 3: Elon had this vision of putting government spending and all
Speaker 3: this information even if you put campaign donations on chain.
Speaker 3: I don't think this is going to happen tomorrow or
Speaker 3: next year, but maybe in the next lifetime that all
Speaker 3: of these informations and things are on the chain, so
Speaker 3: it's more transparent, you get real time information. Well, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: Nancy Pelosi got donation from this corporation. Okay, let's watch
Speaker 3: what she does with the laws around that industry, right,
Speaker 3: those type of things. I think it will help fix it,
Speaker 3: but we got ways to go, of course.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting that they still allow for ETFs,
Speaker 1: so they're still allowed with regard to mutual front funds,
Speaker 1: retirement funds, you know, they're still allowed exposure through a
Speaker 1: regulatory entity, but they're just not allowed to invest in
Speaker 1: a stock. I do think that's interesting, and I'll have
Speaker 1: to do more research there. But I wonder if there
Speaker 1: are there eventually will be loopholes as we get more regular,
Speaker 1: you know, regulatory clarity, how that still gives them kind
Speaker 1: of insider trading just simply having access.
Speaker 3: But one of the questions I asked Congressman style was
Speaker 3: what about other assets? Because they could trade oil, they
Speaker 3: could trade other commodities. Right based on if you know
Speaker 3: a war is going to happen, or you know some
Speaker 3: the trade of horror moves is about to close, there's
Speaker 3: still other assets and things that can be traded here
Speaker 3: outside of stocks.
Speaker 2: So I think it may.
Speaker 3: Be a crawl walk run approach where he's probably like, look,
Speaker 3: I know I can't get all assets in every iteration
Speaker 3: of these things, but let's start with a baseline and
Speaker 3: a foundation to get this going right.
Speaker 2: Now, Amanda, time is running out, man.
Speaker 3: August seventh is the hard date. I don't think we're
Speaker 3: gonna get anything done later this year because of the
Speaker 3: midterm elections. I could be wrong, but if it misses
Speaker 3: the August window I saw, I think Center Tuon was
Speaker 3: saying it won't happen.
Speaker 2: Now that's one man's opinion, but I don't know what
Speaker 2: do you think.
Speaker 1: I hope it sounds like they're working through this weekend,
Speaker 1: and I am very I have to remain optimistic until
Speaker 1: we see it fall through. I just have to. I
Speaker 1: saw recently on Twitter, right before we got on here,
Speaker 1: that Patrick Witt is optimistic. I've been behind him the
Speaker 1: whole time. I hope, I hope he's right. But we
Speaker 1: shall see because once, you know, Congress leaves for recess,
Speaker 1: that's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And when comes September, when they're back or late
Speaker 3: early October, it's going to be election season, musslinging focused
Speaker 3: on campaigning and all that.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I really hope. I mean, businesses hate uncertainty
Speaker 1: more than regulation. So right now, this is a very
Speaker 1: strange time for this industry. And I'm hopeful that, you know,
Speaker 1: end of July. I know we're July twenty fourth right now,
Speaker 1: so I'm hoping beginning of next week we'll have more
Speaker 1: up to date.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and fingers crossed for big upbates next week because
Speaker 3: I think next week is a critical week. To your point,
Speaker 3: we're going to be at the end of July and
Speaker 3: this thing has to be voted out of Senate because
Speaker 3: then it has to go to the House to be
Speaker 3: voted on, and we got to get out of the
Speaker 3: House whenever President Trump sciens it is not a big deal.
Speaker 2: It's just getting it through these hurdles right exactly.
Speaker 3: Now, Moving ahead, the Digital Chambers sued the State of
Speaker 3: Illinois regarding their ridiculous digital asset crypto tax. Now, I
Speaker 3: did some sleuthing here and the governor's buddy buddies with
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Warren, So he's a crony, and you know, Elizabeth
Speaker 3: Warren is the one who gave him the idea for this.
Speaker 3: But glad to see the chambers suing them to get yes.
Speaker 1: Same Sam. I think it was zero point two tax
Speaker 1: specifically targeting this industry. And I think it's ridiculous because
Speaker 1: again you have mostly Democrats right criticize, criticizing, and and
Speaker 1: Republicans the ethical side of politicians, specifically President Trump on
Speaker 1: his you know, insider knowledge of crypto and the benefits
Speaker 1: that he and his family have received and a lot
Speaker 1: of the money he's made, let's face it. But now
Speaker 1: you have a state who sees an opportunity here who
Speaker 1: could potentially make you know, million, tens of millions of
Speaker 1: dollars for their state. So they're targeting this industry. They
Speaker 1: see regulation coming, they see the future, and they're going
Speaker 1: after it. And that's branded as sound policy, but it's
Speaker 1: don't you think that that also blurs into ethical It's
Speaker 1: just to me, it's so hypocritical.
Speaker 3: Big time, big time hypocritical and at first I was like,
Speaker 3: you know, where the hell did this come from? And
Speaker 3: I started, you know, googling the governor's name, and I decided,
Speaker 3: let me put Elizabeth Warren's name next.
Speaker 2: See their campaigning.
Speaker 3: They they're going after the folks who are being supported
Speaker 3: by the crypto industry, those who are pro crypto, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, okay, I get it. This guy just
Speaker 3: wake up randomly. It is like, you know what, let's
Speaker 3: tax crypto transactions and all that. Elizabeth Warren se did
Speaker 3: the idea and and of course, of course she did, of.
Speaker 1: Course, and I could see that being a domino effect.
Speaker 1: I fear that Illinois will be the first of many
Speaker 1: dominoes to fall because they're going to say, okay, you're
Speaker 1: going to get this pass. We're going to figure out
Speaker 1: a way to also, you know, benefit from this, and
Speaker 1: this will be what they do. And it's and it is.
Speaker 1: I think the Digital Chamber is saying this is unconstitutional
Speaker 1: based on you know, their their laws in the state,
Speaker 1: and I agree with that. While that's that hasn't been
Speaker 1: you know, made firm by the court yet, like that
Speaker 1: hasn't been a reality, it is it seems very unconstitutional.
Speaker 3: Absolutely singling out at excuse me, a specific asset class.
Speaker 3: And I'm glad the Digital Chamber is suing them. We
Speaker 3: got to get maybe Cody Carbone back on the podcast
Speaker 3: to talk about this, plus the Clarity Act and much more.
Speaker 3: But I think they're going to lose this at the
Speaker 3: State of Illinois for sure, because this is draconne and
Speaker 3: just ridiculous. And it goes back to our point earlier
Speaker 3: that the Democrats want every state attorney general to handle.
Speaker 2: Some of these things.
Speaker 3: So let's say Illinois is doing this, but Indiana is not, right,
Speaker 3: you have this hodgepodge madness confusion. So it goes back
Speaker 3: to Democrats, the idea of having East state handle this.
Speaker 2: No, it can't work.
Speaker 1: Isn't that so interesting? You know, Democrats as a whole,
Speaker 1: for all their agendas, have always wanted big government. They
Speaker 1: want the government involved, they want it at the federal level.
Speaker 1: And I find it's so interesting now that they're against this. Now,
Speaker 1: let's put it in the hands of the states. Every
Speaker 1: other huge issue, education, you know, Rob Wade, all these
Speaker 1: things they have pushed into the government like federal hands.
Speaker 1: And it's become Republican philosophy. Now used to be democrat
Speaker 1: to keep it at the hands of the state, and
Speaker 1: I just I find that very ironic that now they're like, okay, now,
Speaker 1: let's let the states handle this. It's like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: because you're going to profit in a way that you can.
Speaker 3: Fits your agenda. Yes, so so annoying, but yeah, more
Speaker 3: power to the digital chamber. And if other states try
Speaker 3: to do this, I think the entire crypto industry will
Speaker 3: gang up and sue them, just like they did on
Speaker 3: it against the regime and saw the sec under Gainster
Speaker 3: and other agencies took big losses in courts.
Speaker 2: So you know, we'll fight, and I think the industry
Speaker 2: is ready to fight for sure.
Speaker 3: Absolutely moving ahead, we got big news from the DTCC,
Speaker 3: so they have process their first live production trades of
Speaker 3: tokenized stocks, ETFs and treasuries with big firms like JP Morgan,
Speaker 3: black Rock, Goldman, Sachs, and Vanguard.
Speaker 2: This is incredible.
Speaker 3: You're seeing all these powerhouses coming together and they're collaborating
Speaker 3: on the infrastructure for where things are headed. You know
Speaker 3: you mentioned earlier about tokenized assets and the future of
Speaker 3: capital markets. I have the thesis that the entire capital
Speaker 3: markets and economies will run on blockchain rails.
Speaker 2: It looks like that's the direction we're heading in.
Speaker 1: I agree, And it's so funny. I think just a
Speaker 1: short while ago, how many people were googling what the
Speaker 1: acronym was DTCC. I think a lot of people did
Speaker 1: not know what this entity was. But everybody relies on it,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think of them like Visa. It's
Speaker 1: like no one's talking about Visa, but everybody knows, you know,
Speaker 1: what they are and how they use it, and I
Speaker 1: just they're the plumbing. So I think this is great
Speaker 1: because tokenization is changing finance. There's so many layers that
Speaker 1: are relying on you know, it's I mean, each layer
Speaker 1: has costs, each layer has delays. You know, you have
Speaker 1: the broker, you have the custodian, you have all these
Speaker 1: different layers. And so instead of these five parties or
Speaker 1: whatnot updating five different databases, now you have everyone referencing
Speaker 1: one source of truth, and that's the blockchain. And I
Speaker 1: think that's really a huge, huge step. And an entity
Speaker 1: like the d TCC, which you know is just doing
Speaker 1: I mean Quadrille and zip money annually that they're clearing
Speaker 1: this is a huge step in the right direction.
Speaker 2: This is massive. This is the big eight hundred pound
Speaker 2: gorilla in the room.
Speaker 3: And I don't think a lot of people recognize that
Speaker 3: to your point, like many may not know because they're
Speaker 3: not the big names and the forefront. They're in the
Speaker 3: back end, right. They know the names of black Rock
Speaker 3: and JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs, but those entities and
Speaker 3: financial institutions can't function without the DTCC. So the fact
Speaker 3: that they're all in, they've been publishing a lot of
Speaker 3: things they're doing with different blockchains like Canton Network, Stellar,
Speaker 3: I believe.
Speaker 2: So it's incredible.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I have to pinch myself, like, wow, these firms
Speaker 3: are actually doing it. You know again, you go, I
Speaker 3: was here since twenty sixteen, so I've seen icos and
Speaker 3: mean coins and NFTs and now it's like trad fi
Speaker 3: institutions taking the blockchain, building incredible real world use cases
Speaker 3: and utility and solving problems and improving efficiency.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, because your current stock market is
Speaker 1: asleep during the weekends during holidays, so if you you know,
Speaker 1: blockchain does not. And that's really as simple as it is.
Speaker 1: So you have liquidity that improves, you have settlement time
Speaker 1: that is improving. Who doesn't want that, you know, put
Speaker 1: you you want a transaction done, and you happen to
Speaker 1: get in on the Friday, but it's a three day
Speaker 1: weekend and so Monday it's a holiday. Now you don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about that anymore. And I think that's great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and especially if there's like macro news of like
Speaker 3: war or whatever, right that's happening and you can't get
Speaker 3: out of your acid go in or out right because
Speaker 3: it's like you said, but in a tokenized twenty four
Speaker 3: seven market, you can. And Crypto was the start of that,
Speaker 3: the genesis of it all exactly.
Speaker 1: It's it's really the fact that Wall Street is really
Speaker 1: seeing this as a benefit shows crypto is clearly not
Speaker 1: going anywhere, you know, it's here. It's just how how
Speaker 1: now this becomes, how this mature is into the space,
Speaker 1: How the two collide.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I hope people maybe via this podcast and
Speaker 3: some of the work we've been doing, they recognize that
Speaker 3: it's not just about the coins. The coins is like
Speaker 3: the representation of the blockchain. And yes there's bad blockchains
Speaker 3: and bad coins and speculative you know, garbage that happens
Speaker 3: in every industry, right, there's zombie stocks on the stock
Speaker 3: market and things like that. But recognize this is technology.
Speaker 3: This is the next layer on the internet. Look at
Speaker 3: the blockchain and then if you want to invest and
Speaker 3: say I'm going to bet on this blockchain, then you
Speaker 3: grab the coin. I like to remind people look at
Speaker 3: the blockchain first, not the coin first.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's why it's your your infrastructure companies,
Speaker 1: you know, your stable coin, issuance companies, your your treasury. Like,
Speaker 1: these are the companies that are winning because they have
Speaker 1: the infrastructure from a speed, you know, the settlement layer,
Speaker 1: the cost layer, the technology portion, you know, I know
Speaker 1: we'll get to that. The Securitize and Cancer Fitzgerald partnership,
Speaker 1: like that's such a huge deal because they are the
Speaker 1: tech beneath of running you know, huge financial institution.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and to your point, Securitized they went public recently
Speaker 3: Viaspac merger on the New York Stock Exchange. So these
Speaker 3: infrastructure companies are growing, they're going public, they're expanding globally.
Speaker 2: So it's exciting times.
Speaker 3: And again I think a lot of people are just
Speaker 3: so focused on price and look, I have a portfolio
Speaker 3: of crypto assets. I won the price to go up,
Speaker 3: but don't miss the forest with the trees here where
Speaker 3: the world is changing, The markets are changing, and it's
Speaker 3: because of this technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think Wall Street specifically, you know, not just
Speaker 1: from a crypto standpoint, They're understanding that banking products are
Speaker 1: moving in this direct, like eventually they will all be
Speaker 1: tokenized to the point where investors are now looking at
Speaker 1: it as more appealing because of that. So I think
Speaker 1: you also have banks that understand, Okay, if we're going
Speaker 1: to attract investors, we need to get on board with this.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, I think the banks, if I'm not mistaken there.
Speaker 3: We spoke to the head of Crypto City, Ryan Rugg.
Speaker 3: They're doing tokenized deposits, so like this is more on
Speaker 3: the commercial side versus the retail. Retail may be stable coin,
Speaker 3: but tokenize the positive they'll be able to move capital
Speaker 3: between each other faster, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you think of the specifically with IPOs, with
Speaker 1: Cantor Fitzgerald, I mean, the traditional IPO, you had the
Speaker 1: company that was raising the money. You had a lot
Speaker 1: of intermediaries because of the traditional IPO, and so when
Speaker 1: you bring in blockchain now into that, that's ownership that
Speaker 1: originates digitally and every layer everything becomes programmable and so
Speaker 1: that asset is never leaving the blockchain.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And to your point, Canter and securitize the announced
Speaker 3: partnership to bring IPOs on chain, which is pretty wild
Speaker 3: when you think about it, that eventually companies when they
Speaker 3: go public, they're going to go public on chain versus
Speaker 3: the traditional way because it's all going to be running
Speaker 3: a blockchain anyway.
Speaker 2: And it's just fascinating.
Speaker 3: And I think there's folks we've interviewed also to talk
Speaker 3: about private equity going on chain, so companies ahead of
Speaker 3: time can start putting out shares on chain even before
Speaker 3: they do an IPO and get more participants in there.
Speaker 3: So it's going to change capital formation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like that blockchain. You know, I think
Speaker 1: we've said this in a lot of episodes, like people
Speaker 1: are going to stop saying it, people are going to
Speaker 1: start you know, it's going to go into the background
Speaker 1: because it's no longer just this add on product. It
Speaker 1: becomes the operating system as a whole. And I think
Speaker 1: that's where we're seeing the evolution of this industry. It's
Speaker 1: very exciting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we are living in one of the most incredible
Speaker 3: technologically advanced or the genesis of a technological movement that's
Speaker 3: going to change the world in the next hundred years.
Speaker 2: And I guess an analogy.
Speaker 3: To that would be like the late eighteen hundreds into
Speaker 3: the early nineteen hundreds with that industrial revolution, with the
Speaker 3: combustion engine, electricity, light bulb, automobile, well, internet, blockchain, AI, robotics, UH,
Speaker 3: space exploration, solar energy and all that. Right, just imagine
Speaker 3: what the world's going to be like in fifty years
Speaker 3: with all this technology in place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's gonna be the fifth element with Bruce Willis.
Speaker 2: Are you going to cry or freeze yourself? Amanda?
Speaker 1: You know, oh, man, I don't think years, so I
Speaker 1: don't know why it's so morbid to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, But you know, there's some folks who are talking about, well,
Speaker 3: you're this is a really weird thing to talk about.
Speaker 3: But your version of yourself could be put into an
Speaker 3: AI model where it has your attributes, knowledge and things like.
Speaker 3: It won't be like you like your soul to speak,
Speaker 3: but that version could live in an AI format and
Speaker 3: people can then download into a robot avatar.
Speaker 2: It's wild the things that you could potentially do.
Speaker 1: And I imagine there are certain people you want that with.
Speaker 1: I don't know why anybody would want to keep me
Speaker 1: in a name, AI wrote, I get like the genius
Speaker 1: is like the most brilliant minds your bit like you
Speaker 1: want that, you want their brains here on this earth. Still,
Speaker 1: I get that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, it's it's pretty wild. It's going to be
Speaker 3: an interesting feature. But we got to talk. I think
Speaker 3: last item here. You know, we're still in the crypto
Speaker 3: bear market. I think we're going to come out of
Speaker 3: it soon. But as per every bear market, there are casualties,
Speaker 3: and this is I think healthy. Not that I want
Speaker 3: to see anybody fail or companies to fail, but I
Speaker 3: think there's a natural aspect to bull and bear.
Speaker 2: Markets where the herd gets thinned out.
Speaker 3: You know, as it's saying goes when the tide goes
Speaker 3: back out, you see who's swimming naked. We had a
Speaker 3: bunch of bitcoin treasury issues here, Jack Maller stepping down
Speaker 3: from twenty one Big Coin Treasury Company, Mark Moss's Satsuma
Speaker 3: Bigcoin Treasury Company. The shareholders green lighted the sale of
Speaker 3: all their bitcoin and exiting from the London Stock Exchange
Speaker 3: and then Bitmax Exchange is shutting down. So these are
Speaker 3: casualties so far.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this and I agree with you. I
Speaker 1: don't think these are failures. I think this is just
Speaker 1: the evolution of what we're seeing this industry, you know,
Speaker 1: come into I think the Mark Moss business model, you know,
Speaker 1: because I think he would only join that company last year,
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. So that's it's very interesting because
Speaker 1: a lot of these companies, I mean Jack Mallers, he
Speaker 1: was one of the first personalities in bitcoin, and and
Speaker 1: to be fair, these these companies were kind of copycats
Speaker 1: of Strategy, but the problem was that they were more
Speaker 1: so you know, it was like by bitcoin sell, by
Speaker 1: bitcoin cell, and it was so reliant on the market
Speaker 1: that even through one bear market, Satsuma could not survive.
Speaker 1: And so you have to question why has strategy, you know,
Speaker 1: continued to survive through all these bear markets, And it
Speaker 1: is to you know, strategies credit. They did build a
Speaker 1: financial engineering portion that was unbeatable that you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: Michael Saylor understands convertible debt and and all these things
Speaker 1: that you had to know in order to survive those downturns.
Speaker 1: But these these other guys, I don't. I think it
Speaker 1: was just too It was like they were forced sellers.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's the kiss of death. It's like
Speaker 1: when when that's your business model. And Mark Moss especially
Speaker 1: prided himself on a lot of these almost like Ted Talks,
Speaker 1: if you will, of how to be a good businessman,
Speaker 1: and so it was shocking to see that his business
Speaker 1: was completely built on whether bitcoin falls or not. That's
Speaker 1: to me, that's not a good business model.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, a lot of these guys were copycats, but they
Speaker 3: didn't execute well to your point, and you're starting to
Speaker 3: see the weakness and the chinks in the armor now,
Speaker 3: and it looks like many of them are going to
Speaker 3: have to shut their business down. Because even I was
Speaker 3: questioning at one point, you know, why are all these
Speaker 3: guys starting bitcoin treasury companies? There's only room for so
Speaker 3: many because Strategy obviously had the biggest brand, the head
Speaker 3: start right, first movie advantage, But do we need twenty
Speaker 3: of these? Like, what the hell would I want to
Speaker 3: go invest in the It's just weird.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it's interesting because you think about why
Speaker 1: Michael Sailor is famous, and it's because the guy bought bitcoin.
Speaker 1: That's it. That's and it's interesting because that's the least
Speaker 1: important part when it comes to these companies, these bitcoins.
Speaker 1: And what's another misconception is bitcoin treasury companies are not
Speaker 1: necessarily known for buying bitcoin. They're known for for having
Speaker 1: access to capital markets. There that's it's in fact, bitcoin
Speaker 1: is secondary really in terms of how they they strategize.
Speaker 1: So I think because he became famous for that, uh,
Speaker 1: that that was not that was just not It was
Speaker 1: the least important part. And it's really because, like I said,
Speaker 1: strategy never became a forced seller. So they continued, they
Speaker 1: continued on. But my point that I'm trying to get
Speaker 1: to is you had Sailor, Moss Sailor, look at all
Speaker 1: these guys that I hope that we bitcoin specifically gets
Speaker 1: away from the personalities and starts becoming the actual you know,
Speaker 1: let's let's form companies, let's talk about the technology portion infrastructure,
Speaker 1: because we have to get away from these influencer mentalities
Speaker 1: where you're just getting on stage simply because you bought
Speaker 1: bitcoin and you seem to know more than everyone else.
Speaker 2: That's such a great, great point.
Speaker 3: And we've talked a lot about Michael Sailor, for example,
Speaker 3: needs to not be the face of bitcoin into your
Speaker 3: and even to these other guys, Jack Maller, So great
Speaker 3: point there, and and the other factor that I thought
Speaker 3: of while these guys were launching these bitcoin treasuries, why,
Speaker 3: especially with ETFs and black Rock and all these institutions saying, hey,
Speaker 3: we have a bitcoin ETF, we will custody it. It's safe,
Speaker 3: We're not doing anything crazy with it. Come invest You're
Speaker 3: already working with us, you know our brand. Why the
Speaker 3: hell would I go to buy twenty one Capitals or
Speaker 3: the company's share right, I'm talking about the average investor. Now.
Speaker 3: Now those are sophisticated and understand certain things, sure, but
Speaker 3: the average are just going to be like.
Speaker 2: What the hell would I? What the hell is twenty
Speaker 2: one Capital go to black rocker Fidelity.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well that's why I'm fascinated that they didn't see
Speaker 1: this coming, because bitcoin is an asset is probably the
Speaker 1: most trusted amongst crypto. It's really it's real. It's been
Speaker 1: on the balance sheets, you know, battle tested on balance
Speaker 1: sheets at some of these big institutions. How did you
Speaker 1: not see this coming? Where eventually, like the natural evolution
Speaker 1: is where now institutions are adopting this and they're going
Speaker 1: to form their own products. You're going to go belly up.
Speaker 1: That's just how it works.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And consumers are already in the process of trying
Speaker 3: to get educated about bitcoin. Many of them are still skeptical.
Speaker 3: What makes you think they're going to go the next
Speaker 3: step leaf frog bitcoin to go say I'm going to
Speaker 3: hold your stock because you hold bitcoin and I don't
Speaker 3: know what you're doing, like it the mentally for again,
Speaker 3: the average investor, right, they're not going to do that.
Speaker 3: That's a hard sell if it's already hard to sell
Speaker 3: them crypto, which.
Speaker 1: Is new, right, And once clarity passes hope does, you're
Speaker 1: just going to see more and more products, more companies
Speaker 1: coming out of that. This will be a pastime where
Speaker 1: it was like And if you want to be on
Speaker 1: the media portion of you know, the broader market, that's
Speaker 1: one thing. But if you're doubling down on being the
Speaker 1: face of an asset, I think you're doing yourself a
Speaker 1: huge disservice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that goes against bitcoin too, right,
Speaker 3: So Toshi knock them out of being anonymous.
Speaker 2: You don't know who it.
Speaker 3: Is, so all of a sudden, sailors the poster boy
Speaker 3: for bitcoin and these guys come on, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 3: shouldn't be that way. No, Well, Amanda, hopefully in the
Speaker 3: next two weeks when we meet, the Clarity Act has
Speaker 3: passed the Senate, passed the House and we're celebrating.
Speaker 2: Maybe I bring some champagne in here and I love it.
Speaker 1: I've got glasses, but I can't. Yeah, well we'll digitally toast.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll see how it works out.
Speaker 3: But everyone, thank you so much for tuning in, and
Speaker 3: we'll catch you in the next one.
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone, Thanks Tony,