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<v Speaker 1>To start with, I really want you to know that

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<v Speaker 1>I do understand and genuinely value how important logic and

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<v Speaker 1>reason are, whether we're talking about presuppositional arguments for God

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<v Speaker 1>or just good old fashioned P equals P. Please don't

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<v Speaker 1>mistake my position on this. I love a good, clean

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<v Speaker 1>syllogism as much as the next skeptic, but as a therapist,

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<v Speaker 1>I can't help but notice and worry about the role

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<v Speaker 1>that hyperrationality and skepticism at all costs often play in

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<v Speaker 1>the so called angry Internet atheist experience. I don't buy

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<v Speaker 1>into tired stereotypes of our community as a collective of

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<v Speaker 1>spots and datas stripped of emotion and running on pure reason.

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<v Speaker 1>And yet I've spent enough time in this space to

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<v Speaker 1>know how easy it can be to use logic as

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<v Speaker 1>armor and intellect as a way of keeping vulnerability at bad.

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<v Speaker 1>Like our friend doctor Firth god be Here recently pointed out,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't love logic or hate some mentality without getting

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<v Speaker 1>pretty emotional about it. There's always a heart behind the argument.

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<v Speaker 1>So no, I have no ambition of settling the war

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<v Speaker 1>between logic and emotion, but I am interested in making

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<v Speaker 1>space for both, because when someone calls in with their story,

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<v Speaker 1>their doubt, their outrage, or grief or confusion. We owe

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<v Speaker 1>them more than just a flaw of syllogism. We owe

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<v Speaker 1>them empathy, curiosity, and the courage to say I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know when that's the most honest answer we have. This

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<v Speaker 1>is talk Hethen, a community for conversations where reasons meet compassion,

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<v Speaker 1>and where every question deserves a thoughtful human response. So

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<v Speaker 1>give us a call because the show is coming right now. Okay, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome everyone. Today is Father's Day, June eighth, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm your host, Christy Powell, and with me today for

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<v Speaker 1>our first time together, is Heathen Scott Dicky.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, all right, I'm looking forward to working with

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<v Speaker 2>you today, Chris. I've been looking forward to this to

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<v Speaker 2>the show for a long time. I do want to

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<v Speaker 2>point out that, at least in Minnesota, it's June fifteenth, today, June.

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<v Speaker 1>Fifteenth, yet that is on me. Thank you for catching that.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know if there was a time difference or

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<v Speaker 2>what time zone you're in there.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, don't you to talk about what year it

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<v Speaker 1>is right now? I don't want to talk about the news.

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to celebrate Father's Day and get into

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<v Speaker 1>some good, clean syllogisms and logic and compassion and calls

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<v Speaker 1>for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>For sure, I'm really hoping that we get some callers

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<v Speaker 2>that are either passionate about a logical argument or if

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<v Speaker 2>they want to analyze and emotional argument, So hopefully we

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<v Speaker 2>can get a nice mixture there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, no, that sounds great. Of course, this is

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<v Speaker 1>talk Heathen, and we are open to all of your

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<v Speaker 1>questions about religion, secular humanism, atheistic morality, cosmology, philosophy, science, history, life,

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<v Speaker 1>the universe and everything that said, Scott, is is there

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<v Speaker 1>anybody else that you're really hoping to speak to today?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, last week I was listening to the show

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<v Speaker 2>and there was somebody that was talking a lot about math,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of smack about math, And so I'm hoping

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<v Speaker 2>we get some math related content because i think because

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<v Speaker 2>as some of you may know, I'm a math teacher

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<v Speaker 2>in my other life, and it seems like whenever I'm

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<v Speaker 2>watching a show that I'm not on, that's when the

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<v Speaker 2>math callers come in. So if you have a math

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<v Speaker 2>related argument, I'd love to dig into that with you too.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh man, Yeah, just any opportunity to listen to you

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<v Speaker 1>explain infinity until my brain explodes. I'll just be kind

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<v Speaker 1>of quietly eating popcorn here in the background. All right,

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<v Speaker 1>all right, I'm ready, So let's do it. Talk Heathen

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<v Speaker 1>is a production of the Atheist Community of Austin. We're

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<v Speaker 1>a five oh one c three nonprofit organization that is

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<v Speaker 1>dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

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<v Speaker 1>and the separation of religion and government. We are a

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<v Speaker 1>live call in show with open lines, so get your

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<v Speaker 1>calls in at five one two two four two or

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<v Speaker 1>from your computer at tiny dot ce c slash call

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<v Speaker 1>t H. And while we wait for all of these

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<v Speaker 1>passionate and logical calls to roll in, let's touch base

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<v Speaker 1>with our backup host today, Jamie the Blind Limy, Who's

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<v Speaker 1>going to go over our talk Eathen to me segment? Jamie,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you got for us this week? Jimy, let

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<v Speaker 1>me get you unmuted?

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<v Speaker 2>There, Amy's there we go.

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<v Speaker 1>Hell, there we are? How are you?

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<v Speaker 3>I am excellent? And for this Beard, I paid the

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<v Speaker 3>iron price. So we asked last week, Oh, what was

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<v Speaker 3>God's biggest mistake? So God's beigest mistake was blank? So

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<v Speaker 3>in at number three, we have Phil Herning Honing. God's

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<v Speaker 3>biggest mistake was leaving a message to a message to

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<v Speaker 3>creation that can be seen only by one guy in Nebraska.

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<v Speaker 3>I wonder what that's referencing too. I am so.

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<v Speaker 1>Curious about who this guy in Nebraska is. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>aware of any particular cult, any particular news story about

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<v Speaker 1>this idea. I do kind of just love the notion

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<v Speaker 1>of just one random dude cruising down the interstate between

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<v Speaker 1>Cordon Fields, right right.

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<v Speaker 3>He's the one who knows Jeff and.

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<v Speaker 1>All held Jeff.

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<v Speaker 3>And then at number two, gade Us. God's biggest mistake

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<v Speaker 3>was having Jesus crucified on Friday and then resurrected on Sunday,

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<v Speaker 3>making him miss the Saturday morning can't.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, man, if you're gonna have to work on a weekend, jeez.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah man, miss anyway. And at number one, it's

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<v Speaker 3>caade More God's biggest mistake, ORed biggest blunder. He made

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<v Speaker 3>certain parts of the body incredibly fun to mess around with,

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<v Speaker 3>then insisted that it's about to do so. Either that

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<v Speaker 3>or the existence of the platypus. That thing is trash

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<v Speaker 3>heap of nonsense together. True enough, the Platypus is the

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<v Speaker 3>closest thing we have to Pokemon in real life from

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<v Speaker 3>the black Light. It's got a venomous barb and it

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<v Speaker 3>sweats milk.

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<v Speaker 2>There you got to weird world, all right?

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<v Speaker 1>Uh well, yeah, thank you, Jamie. I know that the

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<v Speaker 1>prompt for next week is finish the joke Jesus Mohammad

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<v Speaker 1>and Joseph Smith walk into a bar. We want to

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<v Speaker 1>hear your responses in the comments section. Scott, what do

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<v Speaker 1>you got for that one?

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<v Speaker 2>All right? All right, I put a lot of thought

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<v Speaker 2>into this. Here's my Joe and I wrote it down

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure I didn't screw up the word in here.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Jesus Muhammad and Joseph Smith walk into a bar.

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<v Speaker 2>The bartender sets a single beer down on the bar

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<v Speaker 2>with three straws and says, it's our new profit sharing policy.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Father's Day.

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<v Speaker 1>I gotta do a dad joke.

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<v Speaker 2>I gotta get a dad right, all right?

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<v Speaker 3>This one for me, Jesus Mohammad and Josepith walking to

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<v Speaker 3>the bar and the bomb and says, is this some

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<v Speaker 3>kind of joke?

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<v Speaker 1>There you go? Or Jesus Mohammad and Joseph Smith walk

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<v Speaker 1>into a bar? At least it was in a school.

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<v Speaker 3>Or thank you Christy for I'm going to make a kopa.

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<v Speaker 3>I messed that up and Christy got my back. But

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<v Speaker 3>I'm going to get Christie's back now because there's some

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<v Speaker 3>people we need to think.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Absolutely, I want to get our care up on

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<v Speaker 1>the screen. Thank you for all of your hard work,

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<v Speaker 1>all of your patients with us this morning is we're

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<v Speaker 1>goofing around in the green room, and thank you so

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<v Speaker 1>much for helping us put this show on.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, cheers to the crew.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Scott, Okay, so we were diving into it. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>go ahead and jump on the lines. Yeah, all right,

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<v Speaker 1>sounds good. Cool. Let's hear from Benji and Alabama, who

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<v Speaker 1>I guess has some questions about secular morality. Benji, what's

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<v Speaker 1>on your mind? You're hearing us? Okay, well, we will

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<v Speaker 1>work to get that sorted out. Benji, I'm gonna put

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<v Speaker 1>you back in the queue and hopefully we'll talk to

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<v Speaker 1>you soon. In the meantime, Scott, I'm curious from your perspective,

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<v Speaker 1>do you share my concerns at all that I brought

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<v Speaker 1>up at the top of the show. You know, is

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<v Speaker 1>it just an occupational hazard? Of mine as a therapist,

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<v Speaker 1>or do you see this sort of like over intellectualizing

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<v Speaker 1>aspect of our community.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know what's interesting is is you know, somebody

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<v Speaker 2>watching the show might look at us and they might see,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Scott, you're the math teacher, that's the logic side,

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<v Speaker 2>and then Christy or the therapist that's the therapy, that's

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<v Speaker 2>the emotional side.

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<v Speaker 1>Got a right brain situation.

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<v Speaker 2>But in many ways, I mean, we can interpret that,

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<v Speaker 2>revert you know, we could reverse that. I mean, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a math teacher, but I'm not I'm not a mathematician.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm an educator. So my job is to really make

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<v Speaker 2>the math content meaningful to my students. Whereas you, as

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<v Speaker 2>a as a professional therapist, your job is to apply

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<v Speaker 2>the science to your clients. You know, different situations.

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<v Speaker 1>So take all those big emotions and organize them and

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<v Speaker 1>give them a framework and.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of exactly exactly. So, I think in that

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<v Speaker 2>way we're we're both very similar. Is that our both

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<v Speaker 2>of our careers kind of integrate. Uh, these these two

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<v Speaker 2>or these these things that are appear to be these

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<v Speaker 2>two different kinds of forces. But to answer your question

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<v Speaker 2>about do we see this as over you know, intellectualization,

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<v Speaker 2>And I would say yes and no one. Yes, it's

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<v Speaker 2>very easy to to focus on things like logic, especially

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<v Speaker 2>when you're talking to somebody who you think is failing

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<v Speaker 2>on the logical side of things. But I do think

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't necessarily use the word over intellectualizing, because thinking

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<v Speaker 2>about emotion can be a very intellectual process. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>it's uh, it's very deep in analysis, it's very humans centric,

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<v Speaker 2>and so really what we're talking about here is uh,

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<v Speaker 2>maintaining some sort of balance between logical approach and UH

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<v Speaker 2>and incorporating our human emotions in that. And it's one

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<v Speaker 2>of those if you're really good at talking about one

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<v Speaker 2>of those two things, it is in fact very easy

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<v Speaker 2>to to set one of them aside. And I know

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<v Speaker 2>that talking about emotions. You mentioned doctor Firth Godbe here earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, he's really uh, you know, I just love

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<v Speaker 2>listening to him talking about his field of expertise, that

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<v Speaker 2>of emotion, in that you know, he can he can

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<v Speaker 2>really quantify things, and he he has the knowledge of

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<v Speaker 2>the history of the subject to really bring that to bear.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think it's really it's not so much

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<v Speaker 2>of a focusing on one thing at the expense of

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<v Speaker 2>another thing. But I think it's it's it's a balance

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<v Speaker 2>where people can bring their own expectations into it. For example,

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<v Speaker 2>let's say I wanted to read like a book called

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<v Speaker 2>Don Quixote. Okay, we've all heard of Don Quixote, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was originally written in Spanish, and so there's a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of things that I would need to bring to

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<v Speaker 2>bear on a problem like that. I'd have to learn

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<v Speaker 2>how to speak Spanish, for one thing. How I can

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<v Speaker 2>take the words that are written in Spanish and translate

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<v Speaker 2>them into concepts and ideas that I'm familiar with. But

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<v Speaker 2>then once I've done that step, then that only gets

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<v Speaker 2>me to a point where I am then able to

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<v Speaker 2>appreciate the literature and the themes and the messages, and

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<v Speaker 2>so that much might be the that might represent the

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<v Speaker 2>emotional side of the balance too, And so they are

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<v Speaker 2>really two parts accomplishing the same goal that the idea

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<v Speaker 2>being to understand somebody's cultural perspective, their sociological perspective, their

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<v Speaker 2>historical perspective. And so, boy, this is the longest answer

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<v Speaker 2>to a really very short question. And but yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>do I do see that. I do see that I

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<v Speaker 2>see as a math teacher, of course, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>be focusing on mathematics, but as I said before, motivation

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<v Speaker 2>can be a big part of that and can be

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<v Speaker 2>can be a stumbling block for especially new teachers that

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<v Speaker 2>are having difficulty with that thing. But as you gain

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<v Speaker 2>experience as a human being, as you interact with your students,

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<v Speaker 2>you kind of develop that sort of thing. And I

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<v Speaker 2>would imagine that maybe for a therapist it might be

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<v Speaker 2>the flip side. It might be maybe somebody went into

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<v Speaker 2>therapy to be a therapist because they really care about people.

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<v Speaker 2>They really we have a strong and broad knowledge of

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<v Speaker 2>emotional states and you know, human emotion and that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing. But as they learn, then they can apply

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<v Speaker 2>more and more science to the to the situation. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I do see things leaning one way or the

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<v Speaker 2>other in conversations, but I don't necessarily think that that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that should be avoided or even a bad thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's good because then we can survey that

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<v Speaker 2>that landscape and decide what best applies to us and

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<v Speaker 2>our own approaches to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, that that notion of balance is super important,

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<v Speaker 1>but also the idea of translating a word about emotion

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<v Speaker 1>into another language. I mean, that really lines up with

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Firth Godbee. Here's work about how our understanding of

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<v Speaker 1>emotion has changed time after time after time. These aren't

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<v Speaker 1>you know, specific compounds in the body that we can

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<v Speaker 1>isolate and say like, oh, this is the dopamin feeling,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the serotonin feeling. The way that we interpret emotion,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just this sort of arbitrary lens that we are

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<v Speaker 1>applying to these physical sensations. And that's true of thoughts too.

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<v Speaker 1>Thoughts and emotions are really just the different ends of

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<v Speaker 1>the same spectrum, or maybe not discreet from one another

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<v Speaker 1>in any meaningful way. And I think that's really valuable

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<v Speaker 1>in getting this conversation out of that sort of like

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<v Speaker 1>mind body dualism, or that notion of like the animus

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<v Speaker 1>or the soul being somehow separate from the logic or

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<v Speaker 1>the brain, or all of these kinds of complexities. So

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot I think to be aware of here

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<v Speaker 1>as we try to find a healthy balance in our lives.

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<v Speaker 2>Right And I think that word they use right there, awareness,

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's key, especially self awareness and reflective awareness.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that can I mean, that's really part of it.

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<v Speaker 2>We are and integrating different aspects of the human experience,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think and awareness of the way other people

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<v Speaker 2>are reacting in the way and self awareness the way that

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<v Speaker 2>you are reacting can be very valuable in improving whether

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<v Speaker 2>you know, maintaining that balance and also improving both aspects

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<v Speaker 2>of that at the same time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, beautiful. I think there is so much to

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<v Speaker 1>get into here. But I'm hearing from the crew that

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<v Speaker 1>we've got Benji back on the line, So let's jump

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<v Speaker 1>back on the calls. Yeah, all right, okay, Benji and Alabama,

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<v Speaker 1>what's on your mind today? Oh? Okay, well, fair enough,

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<v Speaker 1>Let's give it one more try. Let's go ahead and

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<v Speaker 1>touch base with Tucker in Iowa. All right, Tucker, are

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<v Speaker 1>you hearing us?

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<v Speaker 2>I think we are narrowing in on the problem here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it seems to be okay, Well, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>put all of the calls back into the line and

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<v Speaker 1>trust our incredible crew to get that sordid for us,

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<v Speaker 1>to let us know when we're ready to go. Yeah. So,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess, Scott, when that balance gets sort of off level,

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<v Speaker 1>what are the signs or the hallmarks of dismissing emotion

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<v Speaker 1>in our understanding of things like cosmology or epistemology, like

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<v Speaker 1>when do we know that we're kind of out of step?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's the tricky part, right, That's that's the tricky part.

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<v Speaker 2>That's where that self awareness comes in, if we're looking

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<v Speaker 2>for I think it was was it Mark Twain that

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<v Speaker 2>said the easiest person to fool is yourself, right and

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<v Speaker 2>and the German and the hardest person to convince that

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<v Speaker 2>you've been fooled is yourself. And so it's very looking

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<v Speaker 2>back at yourself in the mirror can be very, very challenging.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think that you know, recognizing well, I

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<v Speaker 2>think the first step would be to admit the possibility

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<v Speaker 2>that you are not getting a good view of yourself

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<v Speaker 2>or you're not taking into consideration certain aspects of your

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<v Speaker 2>own emotional self. But I think that we need to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to look back at ourselves and recognizing when

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<v Speaker 2>we are in fact bringing our own emotions into into

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<v Speaker 2>the process, and that can be that can certainly be

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<v Speaker 2>a benefit that can you know we were talking about before,

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<v Speaker 2>that drives your your passion, that drives your motivation, that

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<v Speaker 2>can drive your interest as well. But on the flip

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<v Speaker 2>side of that, we don't want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>we we go too far in that direction. We don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to rely solely on our emotional responses, because history

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<v Speaker 2>and biology has shown that our emotional responses can be

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<v Speaker 2>very can be misled, can be misled. And that's because

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<v Speaker 2>our intellectual and our emotional selves kind of evolved responding

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<v Speaker 2>to different aspects of the environment, you know, our and

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<v Speaker 2>UH A book that I read called Thinking Fast and

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<v Speaker 2>Slow by Daniel Kaman, I think when I when I

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<v Speaker 2>read that, that really helped me focus on that particular

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<v Speaker 2>difference we have. We have our emotional selves that are

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<v Speaker 2>quick to respond to scenarios and quick to respond to

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<v Speaker 2>danger especially, and then we have our slower intellectual self

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<v Speaker 2>where we can kind of analyze a little bit more

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<v Speaker 2>deeply and it's less less involved with emotion. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think being able to recognize that you have that

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<v Speaker 2>balance in yourself and being able to recognize when it's

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<v Speaker 2>off kilter, I think can be very challenging. I you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as as you do as well. I wish we could

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<v Speaker 2>have some kind of like pill that we could take

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<v Speaker 2>that would that would fix that for us, right, that

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<v Speaker 2>would that would give us that clear view of our

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<v Speaker 2>own selves. But I think that can be an extreme

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<v Speaker 2>challenge for for everybody, and I don't know I'd be

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<v Speaker 2>interested to hear what other people have to say. So

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<v Speaker 2>if anybody wants to call and we do have open lines,

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<v Speaker 2>uh and talk to us about that, I love to

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<v Speaker 2>I love to hear people's opinions on this kind of thing,

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<v Speaker 2>because you know, people think of things that I even

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<v Speaker 2>thought of, and that helps me to improve myself. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think it all kind of starts. It's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>starts at home, as they say, right, It's it starts

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<v Speaker 2>with looking at yourself, and anybody can point the finger

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<v Speaker 2>at somebody else and say you're not being logical, or

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<v Speaker 2>you are reacting inappropriately or so forth. But in order

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<v Speaker 2>to recognize that in our ourselves, I think takes practice

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<v Speaker 2>and diligence.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think it's the self deception part that you

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<v Speaker 1>kind of zoomed in on that is so significant to me.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not that I want to like criticize people for

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<v Speaker 1>being eighty percent logic and only twenty percent emotion, or

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<v Speaker 1>that it would ever or could ever work in that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of way. But it's when I see people, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>in our community, who are insistent they like I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>an emotional person. You know, maybe my partner or my

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<v Speaker 1>children are just too emotional, whereas I operate from pure

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<v Speaker 1>logic and reason. And then the moment you start to

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<v Speaker 1>sort of push back, like, really is your logic and

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<v Speaker 1>reason like all that pure, you start to see the

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<v Speaker 1>anger boiling up that they are unself aware of, that

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<v Speaker 1>they are in denial or about or unwilling to really

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<v Speaker 1>acknowledge as meaningful and significant and not altogether like unhealthy.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, right, Yeah, I mean that's part of the normal,

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<v Speaker 2>normal human existence, right, is that type of thing? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>we've evolved, we have actually evolved to not notice those

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<v Speaker 2>kinds of things in ourselves. We've evolved to try to

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<v Speaker 2>present ourselves as some kind of as leaders and as

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<v Speaker 2>dominant people and as the one that everybody wants to be.

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<v Speaker 2>And so admitting weakness is on the surface, that can

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<v Speaker 2>be seen as a weakness, right, the fact that you

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<v Speaker 2>admit that there are weaknesses, But when you sit back

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<v Speaker 2>and think about it, you want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>you if there are weaknesses there, you want to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that they're that you can recognize that they're there,

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<v Speaker 2>and that you can take steps to move forward. And so, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so that the self awareness, I think is really really

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<v Speaker 2>a key thing, and it's hard to do, especially if

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<v Speaker 2>you're arguing with somebody about something. Like I said, it's

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<v Speaker 2>easy to point fingers, it's easy to say what's wrong

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<v Speaker 2>with their argument, and especially when they're not also doing

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<v Speaker 2>any self reflection. Right, So if they're telling you that

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<v Speaker 2>you're doing things wrong, and then you think, well, maybe

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<v Speaker 2>I am doing things wrong, and then it seems like

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<v Speaker 2>it kind of pushes it one way, and our egos

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<v Speaker 2>respond instantly with that, with that fiery, that fiery response.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't want to be the weak one. We don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to be the vulnerable one. And I think the

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<v Speaker 2>willingness to show vulnerability, well this is my opinion, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think the willingness to show vulnerability is really a

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<v Speaker 2>true sign of strength. And when I'm talking to somebody,

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<v Speaker 2>if they can be vulnerable and or admit their own

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<v Speaker 2>weaknesses to me, I think, Okay, that's a strong person.

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<v Speaker 2>That's somebody that I want to talk to. That's somebody

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<v Speaker 2>where we can make some progress and and and we

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<v Speaker 2>can kind of set aside the egos and and really

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<v Speaker 2>have some good conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that that vulnerability piece is so challenging here. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>do you feel like there is pressure in our community,

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<v Speaker 1>especially when contrasted with a more like faith based belief system.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there pressure on secular people to always sound rational

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<v Speaker 1>at the at the expense of being emotionally on it? Uh?

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<v Speaker 2>I think there is some pressure there. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 2>can see with the responses that we have to our

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<v Speaker 2>shows that it's when when we when we have hosts

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<v Speaker 2>that tear into callers, you know, tear down their logic

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<v Speaker 2>and that kind of thing, we get a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the most positive responses.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's the longer discussions, the the back and forth discussions,

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<v Speaker 2>the more empathetic approach doesn't necessarily get that strong response.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think there is some, Uh, there is

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<v Speaker 2>some pressure, and I think a lot of that becomes

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of that comes from our tendency to have

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<v Speaker 2>those short sighted goals, right that that quick you can

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<v Speaker 2>point to align on an argument and say there's where

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<v Speaker 2>your logic failed, and that kind of thing. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I think the concreteness of a logical examination makes it

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<v Speaker 2>easier to get that you know, that dopamine kick and

403
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<v Speaker 2>that and that ironically that that emotional kickback from from

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<v Speaker 2>pointing at the uh, at the logic, I think UH

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<v Speaker 2>that those short term benefits, I suppose we can call them,

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<v Speaker 2>make it very easy to move in that direction, both

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<v Speaker 2>as somebody who's talking to the theist or as somebody

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<v Speaker 2>who's watching the show watching somebody else talk to the theist.

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<v Speaker 2>And so there is pressure. But then there are people

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<v Speaker 2>that and these are the hosts that I appreciate the most,

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<v Speaker 2>and that includes yourself definitely, the people who do take

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<v Speaker 2>the extra time to be empathetic, the people that do

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<v Speaker 2>take the extra time to understand not only what the

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<v Speaker 2>other person is saying, but why they're saying it and

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<v Speaker 2>how why they're saying it the way they say it,

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<v Speaker 2>and that kind of thing, and I think that can

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<v Speaker 2>lead to more long term benefits that can lead to

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's really the kind of thing that if

419
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.039
<v Speaker 2>something is going to convince somebody to become an atheist

420
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:51.000
<v Speaker 2>and abandon their religion, it's going to be those those

421
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.079
<v Speaker 2>longer conversations that do take those two things into account.

422
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:59.559
<v Speaker 2>And so it's really just a quick response, a quick feedback,

423
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:02.920
<v Speaker 2>a quick you know, kick of adrenaline or whatever, versus

424
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:09.039
<v Speaker 2>the longer but more ultimately beneficial goal of actually connecting

425
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:12.440
<v Speaker 2>with a human being and making progress together as you

426
00:23:12.519 --> 00:23:15.400
<v Speaker 2>explore these uh, these truths and untruths.

427
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, all fair to say. So to that end,

428
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:21.720
<v Speaker 1>I believe our connections are back up and running. So

429
00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:26.160
<v Speaker 1>let's have a human conversation with Tucker in Iowa if

430
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:26.480
<v Speaker 1>we may.

431
00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:29.039
<v Speaker 4>There, Hi, can you hear me now?

432
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad to hear your voice. Glad you're here.

433
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:33.759
<v Speaker 1>What's on your mind?

434
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:34.160
<v Speaker 5>Ya?

435
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:41.279
<v Speaker 4>So, first of all, it's Tucker formerly known formerly known as.

436
00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:45.119
<v Speaker 1>The Okay, thank you for sharing that with us. Glad

437
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:45.920
<v Speaker 1>to be speaking to you again.

438
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:53.799
<v Speaker 4>So, what I actually identify as is an agnostic anti theist,

439
00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:00.880
<v Speaker 4>anti theist in the in the sense of being against

440
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:07.319
<v Speaker 4>Christian nationalism and the encroachment of religion into our government school.

441
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:14.079
<v Speaker 4>But I am still kind of I do still have

442
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:19.640
<v Speaker 4>some spiritual beliefs or supernatural as Richard likes to prefers.

443
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.559
<v Speaker 1>I think that's an important distinction, and we can sort

444
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:25.359
<v Speaker 1>of get into why. But walk me through I guess

445
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:27.480
<v Speaker 1>your sort of viewpoint.

446
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:32.680
<v Speaker 4>Here, my viewpoints as it pertains to what.

447
00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, when you say that you have some supernatural beliefs,

448
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.839
<v Speaker 1>and maybe you also use the word spiritual to describe

449
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.559
<v Speaker 1>those beliefs. What is it that you're referring to?

450
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:50.319
<v Speaker 4>Well, I have had experiences in what at first glance

451
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:56.680
<v Speaker 4>seems to have been communications with my dead father and

452
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:03.279
<v Speaker 4>noticing some a couple of really interesting things that happened

453
00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.519
<v Speaker 4>to my mother and sister as well from my father.

454
00:25:06.920 --> 00:25:12.599
<v Speaker 4>I still believe my best friend is psychic. And it's

455
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:16.599
<v Speaker 4>well that I really nearly fall down the rabbit hole

456
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:17.440
<v Speaker 4>with these things.

457
00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:20.799
<v Speaker 1>Go ahead, Well, I guess what I'm interested in here

458
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.480
<v Speaker 1>is why we're referring to these ideas is supernatural? Like

459
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:28.200
<v Speaker 1>I think I take your meaning, but I also feel

460
00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:32.519
<v Speaker 1>like that term supernatural sort of implies that it isn't

461
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:36.359
<v Speaker 1>real and that it's not natural, that it's somehow outside

462
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:41.799
<v Speaker 1>of something. Why are these not just natural phenomena, you know?

463
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:44.440
<v Speaker 1>Which isn't to say that we can or can't speak

464
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:47.880
<v Speaker 1>to the dead, obviously, like we can start to deconstruct

465
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.079
<v Speaker 1>those notions if we need to. But what makes the

466
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:54.079
<v Speaker 1>what gives you the idea that these are supernatural beliefs?

467
00:25:54.119 --> 00:25:58.079
<v Speaker 1>And how are they distinct from I guess natural beliefs

468
00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:59.680
<v Speaker 1>And why have these categories?

469
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:07.440
<v Speaker 4>Uh? Well, bluntly, because there's at least a couple of people,

470
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.759
<v Speaker 4>uh that uh, I suppose you could say is kind

471
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.039
<v Speaker 4>of are kind of in leader in a leadership position

472
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:20.359
<v Speaker 4>or uh or at least highly looked up to. Who

473
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:26.960
<v Speaker 4>made the distinction with me that instead of spiritual, I

474
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.680
<v Speaker 4>should be using the word supernatural.

475
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Do you think there's a difference between those terms, I

476
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:35.480
<v Speaker 2>mean comes on the way that you would normally use

477
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.359
<v Speaker 2>that those two words. Are they different or do you

478
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:42.720
<v Speaker 2>resist against using those words interchangeably?

479
00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:48.519
<v Speaker 4>Well, I have been since uh you know, as as

480
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:53.200
<v Speaker 4>part of my my communication what I called in about

481
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.759
<v Speaker 4>is that some people really do take a very hard

482
00:26:56.839 --> 00:27:04.359
<v Speaker 4>line against anything spiritual or supernatural. My my definition of

483
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:12.599
<v Speaker 4>supernatural would be like ghosts or uh, aliens or those.

484
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:16.240
<v Speaker 1>Are some categories. What's the definition that unites them together?

485
00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:20.599
<v Speaker 4>Well, I don't I you know, like I said, it's

486
00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:25.079
<v Speaker 4>been you know, strongly communicated to me from some folks

487
00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:29.000
<v Speaker 4>that uh, that they are separate. But what I'm trying

488
00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:32.720
<v Speaker 4>to get to is that you know those people who

489
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.000
<v Speaker 4>have you know, who I've spoken with, and that you

490
00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:39.000
<v Speaker 4>know they take a real hard line against any type

491
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:44.640
<v Speaker 4>of spiritual or supernatural belief. And so I'm only right

492
00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:47.680
<v Speaker 4>now just kind of get enough courage to be out

493
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:50.839
<v Speaker 4>there with the with the community and say that I

494
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:55.519
<v Speaker 4>still have some spiritual beliefs. I mean, I kind of

495
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:58.039
<v Speaker 4>feel like you've given me the permission to use that

496
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:00.680
<v Speaker 4>word now in me natural.

497
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.559
<v Speaker 1>You know, I definitely don't want to declare myself the

498
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:08.240
<v Speaker 1>arbiter of what words mean. I can tell you that

499
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:13.160
<v Speaker 1>I hold beliefs or operate in practices that I would

500
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:17.319
<v Speaker 1>describe as spiritual, sure, but I don't see any of

501
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:22.240
<v Speaker 1>that as having a lack of like materialistic truth or

502
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:27.200
<v Speaker 1>not standing up to an empiricist worldview or an empirical worldview.

503
00:28:28.039 --> 00:28:29.559
<v Speaker 1>It seems to me, and I know we're kind of

504
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:31.839
<v Speaker 1>flirting with a couple of different words and some very

505
00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:36.400
<v Speaker 1>loose definitions, but as we dive into it, the sense

506
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:39.640
<v Speaker 1>that I'm taking away, the understanding that I'm gaining here, Tucker,

507
00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:43.000
<v Speaker 1>is that there are things that you believe in that

508
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:46.839
<v Speaker 1>people around you are telling you aren't real, and that

509
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:52.480
<v Speaker 1>the like unifying definition of supernatural as we're applying it here,

510
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.279
<v Speaker 1>are just things that other people dismiss as being made

511
00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.039
<v Speaker 1>up and to me that would not fall under the

512
00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:03.519
<v Speaker 1>definition of spirituality. That's another conversation that we can hold

513
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:05.440
<v Speaker 1>off on for just a moment. But how do you

514
00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:08.240
<v Speaker 1>respond to the notion that, at least if you are

515
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:12.599
<v Speaker 1>taking these insights from other people, that you are perhaps

516
00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:16.440
<v Speaker 1>holding two categories of beliefs in your mind, one which

517
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:19.960
<v Speaker 1>you recognize as real and one which other people do

518
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:21.279
<v Speaker 1>not recognize as real.

519
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:27.759
<v Speaker 4>Yes so, Christie, yes that that that's a pretty good summation.

520
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:31.759
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, so, not to oversimplify it, but why believe

521
00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.839
<v Speaker 1>in things that aren't real, or at least that other

522
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:37.880
<v Speaker 1>people don't believe are real? Or maybe another way of

523
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:40.559
<v Speaker 1>thinking about it is, if you believe that all of

524
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:44.079
<v Speaker 1>these things are in fact true and real, why have

525
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.200
<v Speaker 1>separate categories?

526
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.680
<v Speaker 4>Honestly, Christie, I don't. I don't have an answer to that.

527
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:53.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can appreciate that. I mean, we can get

528
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:58.599
<v Speaker 1>into all the complexities of narcissism and of epistemology and

529
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.480
<v Speaker 1>these sorts of notions. But what we believe to be

530
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:07.400
<v Speaker 1>true is somewhat intuitive. It is, on at least some level,

531
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.079
<v Speaker 1>based on how an idea makes us feel. And I

532
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.480
<v Speaker 1>think it's worth really examining and asking the question are

533
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:19.160
<v Speaker 1>these beliefs grounded in reality? Do they hold up to examination?

534
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Is there a like literal type of truth to it.

535
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:27.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, Scott, can you help offer any clarity here?

536
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.240
<v Speaker 1>I know that we're kind of swimming in some like

537
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.880
<v Speaker 1>very vague language, right right, Tucker.

538
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.799
<v Speaker 2>I'm curious in the notes here for the caller, the

539
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:40.799
<v Speaker 2>call screener, they said that you, some in the atheist

540
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.880
<v Speaker 2>skeptic community take a very hard line against any type

541
00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:45.559
<v Speaker 2>of spiritual beliefs, and it can be very hard to

542
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:48.759
<v Speaker 2>be authentic. I'm curious as to what would you think

543
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:51.839
<v Speaker 2>would be the appropriate response if you were talking to

544
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:56.119
<v Speaker 2>a skeptic and you presented a belief, maybe you like

545
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.039
<v Speaker 2>you said, you believe that your friend is a psychic.

546
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:00.720
<v Speaker 2>What do you think would be the roparate amount of

547
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.000
<v Speaker 2>pushback that skeptics should give you.

548
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:07.480
<v Speaker 4>Well, the skeptics that i'm some of the skeptics that

549
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:14.920
<v Speaker 4>I'm referencing describe my some of my spiritual beliefs and experiences.

550
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:22.000
<v Speaker 4>They describe them as idiotic, unrational, a lot of negative words,

551
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.680
<v Speaker 4>you know, wasting my time of You know, then you're

552
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:31.000
<v Speaker 4>not really an atheist or a skeptic if you believe

553
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:36.880
<v Speaker 4>this stuff. And honestly, I whenever, whenever I'm asked, I

554
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:42.839
<v Speaker 4>I do not just use the word atheist because I

555
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:47.440
<v Speaker 4>am not. I have not crossed over to that absolute

556
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:53.440
<v Speaker 4>definition of I have no evidence for spiritual things.

557
00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:56.680
<v Speaker 6>Okay, and so you would sorry, go ahead, Christine, Well,

558
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.440
<v Speaker 6>I suppose I was just going to say that, you know,

559
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:03.799
<v Speaker 6>whether we we divide atheism into like hard atheism or

560
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:07.000
<v Speaker 6>separated out from agnosticism or any of those things.

561
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.079
<v Speaker 1>I do think it's worth pointing out that atheism doesn't

562
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:14.319
<v Speaker 1>have a position, so to speak, about the existence of aliens.

563
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:20.279
<v Speaker 1>You know, we do associate atheism with skepticism, with rationality,

564
00:32:20.680 --> 00:32:23.279
<v Speaker 1>and I think that some of those belief systems might

565
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:25.680
<v Speaker 1>push back on whether or not we are able to

566
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.720
<v Speaker 1>commune with the dead and some of these things. But again,

567
00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:32.319
<v Speaker 1>we're really getting into all of these labels. And my

568
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:37.839
<v Speaker 1>ultimate curiosity, Tucker, is why you would believe in something

569
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:42.119
<v Speaker 1>that most people seem to believe isn't real and whether

570
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:46.359
<v Speaker 1>or not you yourself believe it to be quote unquote real.

571
00:32:46.599 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 1>And what is that word real really mean or what

572
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:51.000
<v Speaker 1>is it doing in that sentence?

573
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:56.519
<v Speaker 4>Okay, understood. So I feel like this conversation has turned

574
00:32:56.519 --> 00:33:02.720
<v Speaker 4>away from my original intent, and I appreciate you guys,

575
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:06.640
<v Speaker 4>stance on you know what is real and what is not?

576
00:33:06.960 --> 00:33:12.519
<v Speaker 4>And why would I continue to believe? And the statement

577
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:19.160
<v Speaker 4>that you made Christy that most people would be skeptical

578
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:26.200
<v Speaker 4>or not believe my experiences kind of a add popular statement.

579
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:30.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, that's fair to say. So I'm not necessarily

580
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:34.720
<v Speaker 1>trying to destroy your logic, but I am interested in

581
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.079
<v Speaker 1>why you would hold these beliefs that may or may

582
00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:41.880
<v Speaker 1>not hold or past the like smell test of rationality.

583
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Do you consider yourself to be skeptic?

584
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:45.359
<v Speaker 1>I do?

585
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:48.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay? How would you say that you apply that skepticism

586
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:51.720
<v Speaker 2>to your own beliefs? If you feel like other people

587
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:56.279
<v Speaker 2>are being maybe unfairly overly critical? How what you know?

588
00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:58.920
<v Speaker 2>Earlier I asked you what would be the appropriate response?

589
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.440
<v Speaker 2>But maybe more specif physically, what I could ask you is,

590
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:05.079
<v Speaker 2>what are you applying to your own beliefs? If if

591
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.079
<v Speaker 2>you consider yourself to be part of the skeptic community,

592
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:11.760
<v Speaker 2>and I think that you are, I would be curious

593
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.039
<v Speaker 2>as to how you self apply that. How do you

594
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.360
<v Speaker 2>how are you skeptical of your own beliefs? And if so,

595
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:23.639
<v Speaker 2>are you meeting your own threshold of rationality?

596
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:32.199
<v Speaker 4>Yes? Because because I am continuously looking for ways to

597
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:38.159
<v Speaker 4>falsify those beliefs, the beliefs that I've experienced something spiritual

598
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:43.599
<v Speaker 4>or supernatural, the belief that you know that I think

599
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.880
<v Speaker 4>psychics are real. I'm constantly trying to put those to

600
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:53.360
<v Speaker 4>the test and find a naturalistic reason for them.

601
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:55.920
<v Speaker 2>Do you share that if somebody were to come up

602
00:34:55.920 --> 00:34:59.760
<v Speaker 2>to you and say, I don't I don't accept your beliefs,

603
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't accept your belief that your friend is psychic,

604
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:05.000
<v Speaker 2>or whatever it is that you're presenting at that time,

605
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:09.880
<v Speaker 2>how do they respond when you present the approaches, when

606
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.039
<v Speaker 2>you present them that self reflection here, I've tested it

607
00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:15.079
<v Speaker 2>this way, this way, this way, and this way. What

608
00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:17.079
<v Speaker 2>kind of response do you get from that? Or are

609
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:20.119
<v Speaker 2>you saying that many in the skeptical community can be

610
00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:24.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of dogmatically skeptical, which I think is obviously the case.

611
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:26.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we're all human beings, and human beings can

612
00:35:26.840 --> 00:35:29.880
<v Speaker 2>do can even do the right thing for the wrong reasons,

613
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.239
<v Speaker 2>and that kind of thing. But do you find that

614
00:35:33.559 --> 00:35:37.000
<v Speaker 2>self reflection being able to present that to others? Do

615
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.599
<v Speaker 2>you think that you're being still unfairly judged at that point,

616
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:43.960
<v Speaker 2>and are you open to the possibility that maybe you

617
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:47.320
<v Speaker 2>are not being as skeptical of your own beliefs as

618
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:49.960
<v Speaker 2>you might be of someone else's.

619
00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:54.280
<v Speaker 4>As to your last as here, can you repeat the

620
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:56.239
<v Speaker 4>last question? Youah? Sure?

621
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Sure? I asked, are you open to the possibility that

622
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:02.800
<v Speaker 2>you are not seeing yourself in the same way that

623
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:06.039
<v Speaker 2>you might look at others? Are you being more critical

624
00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:08.960
<v Speaker 2>on others' beliefs and maybe less critical? And I'm not

625
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.039
<v Speaker 2>suggesting that you're doing this, I'm just asking are you

626
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:13.679
<v Speaker 2>open to that possibility?

627
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:14.679
<v Speaker 3>Well?

628
00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:20.639
<v Speaker 4>Yes, absolutely, I am open to that possibility. And I come,

629
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:25.719
<v Speaker 4>as I said, I call myself an agnostic anti seist.

630
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:29.639
<v Speaker 4>The agnostic part for me is kind of backwards from

631
00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:34.719
<v Speaker 4>the way you would usually use it. But I am

632
00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:36.239
<v Speaker 4>now I'm getting confused.

633
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:39.719
<v Speaker 1>Sure, well, I know that this is all getting kind

634
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:43.159
<v Speaker 1>of far ranging. So Tucker, if you'll forgive me for

635
00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:47.639
<v Speaker 1>kind of just rushing right into one particular point, maybe

636
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.199
<v Speaker 1>we can bat that around just a little bit before

637
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:53.199
<v Speaker 1>we move on to the next call. And I suppose

638
00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:56.039
<v Speaker 1>what I want to ask is the question of how

639
00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:59.679
<v Speaker 1>is it possible that your sister could be psychic? When

640
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:03.320
<v Speaker 1>we have billions of people on the planet, many of

641
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:06.920
<v Speaker 1>whom have claimed to be psychics. Themselves, but not one

642
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:12.119
<v Speaker 1>of which has ever been able to empirically demonstrate psychic ability.

643
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:17.679
<v Speaker 1>How does your skepticism balance that or maintain that belief

644
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:22.199
<v Speaker 1>in your sister's psychic abilities when no one ever has

645
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:26.199
<v Speaker 1>been able to demonstrate psychic powers.

646
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:31.760
<v Speaker 4>Well, it's definitely not my sister. It's a very good

647
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:32.519
<v Speaker 4>friend of mine.

648
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:35.480
<v Speaker 1>Misunderstood. Okay, Sure, all I have.

649
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.480
<v Speaker 4>All I have are my experiences.

650
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:42.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, I hear you. But you have more than your experiences, right,

651
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:46.440
<v Speaker 1>You have at least some amount of access to all

652
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.480
<v Speaker 1>of the experiences, all of the research, science, all of

653
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.480
<v Speaker 1>the data, all of the thoughts and opinions good, bad

654
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:58.039
<v Speaker 1>or otherwise, of this incredibly advanced society that we've built.

655
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:01.440
<v Speaker 1>You know, you have more than just your experiences to

656
00:38:01.519 --> 00:38:04.960
<v Speaker 1>help you evaluate these truth claims, and you can choose

657
00:38:05.119 --> 00:38:07.760
<v Speaker 1>or not choose to use those things. You can take

658
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:10.360
<v Speaker 1>the experiences that you have and you can say that

659
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:14.599
<v Speaker 1>they are very important, slightly important, not important at all

660
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:18.920
<v Speaker 1>in contrast with all the data sets and the research

661
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:21.960
<v Speaker 1>and the everything else here. But you have more than

662
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:24.559
<v Speaker 1>just what you yourself have witnessed in the room.

663
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:26.559
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I have access to it.

664
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:29.760
<v Speaker 1>Yes, So without you know, trying to ask you to

665
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:34.559
<v Speaker 1>prove or disprove your your friend psychic ability. In answer

666
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:38.559
<v Speaker 1>to Scott's question about are you being skeptical? Are you

667
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:44.159
<v Speaker 1>applying that same level of you know, curiosity to these

668
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:48.599
<v Speaker 1>issues as you might apply to other problems. How do

669
00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:49.159
<v Speaker 1>you respond?

670
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:57.079
<v Speaker 4>Because I am constantly trying to falsify those experiences, and

671
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:02.559
<v Speaker 4>you know, past studies don't help me with that, Okay,

672
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:08.559
<v Speaker 4>Because yeah, I know that that psychic powers have never

673
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:12.199
<v Speaker 4>been empirically proven, and I don't believe we ever would

674
00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:12.840
<v Speaker 4>be able to.

675
00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:18.239
<v Speaker 1>So's it's not just like a black Swan consideration. It's

676
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:22.960
<v Speaker 1>more that there is something unique about quote psychic ability

677
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:28.639
<v Speaker 1>that just defies scientific convention. So this is a inevitable

678
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:30.760
<v Speaker 1>thing that we will always be struggling with.

679
00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:34.920
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, you know, I really, I really wanted to have

680
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:41.559
<v Speaker 4>a discussion of about your opening statement, and I was

681
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:45.039
<v Speaker 4>hoping to use my experiences to you know, highlight that.

682
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:48.119
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, fair enough. I do know that we do

683
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:49.920
<v Speaker 1>have some other calls on the line, but I'd love

684
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:52.320
<v Speaker 1>to give you an opportunity before we wrap up here

685
00:39:52.360 --> 00:39:55.199
<v Speaker 1>to respond to that monologue I gave it at the beginning,

686
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.039
<v Speaker 1>and I'd love to hear what you thought.

687
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.719
<v Speaker 4>Well, not right now, I'll let some somebody else come

688
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:03.039
<v Speaker 4>up and see. Thank you guys for taking.

689
00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:06.519
<v Speaker 1>Well fair enough. Thank you so much for opening up

690
00:40:06.519 --> 00:40:09.239
<v Speaker 1>and being vulnerable enough to share some of these ideas

691
00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:12.559
<v Speaker 1>with us. Take good care, Scott. Anything that you want

692
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:15.239
<v Speaker 1>to kind of add or just a poke at before

693
00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:15.880
<v Speaker 1>we move on.

694
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Sure, Yeah. I would like to say to Tucker, I

695
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:23.159
<v Speaker 2>think you have an opportunity here. As somebody who is

696
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:26.760
<v Speaker 2>skeptical of religious beliefs, you you will occasionally talk to

697
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:29.800
<v Speaker 2>people who believe those things, maybe even in spite of

698
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:32.039
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they know that there's not a lot

699
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:35.719
<v Speaker 2>of evidence supporting those beliefs. And now as somebody who

700
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.559
<v Speaker 2>has experienced that kind of thing, and I'm not I'm

701
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:40.760
<v Speaker 2>not saying that I can guarantee that your beliefs are

702
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.159
<v Speaker 2>false or anything like that, but at least you have

703
00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:47.280
<v Speaker 2>a strong feeling for for something that you are being

704
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.880
<v Speaker 2>told is being irrational. And that's kind of the same

705
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.639
<v Speaker 2>boat that you know that the religious crowd are in.

706
00:40:52.679 --> 00:40:56.039
<v Speaker 2>And so I think I think what what you've stumbled

707
00:40:56.119 --> 00:41:00.800
<v Speaker 2>upon is an opportunity for you to be empathetic and

708
00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:05.760
<v Speaker 2>to understand the feeling that somebody is going through as

709
00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:08.119
<v Speaker 2>you're talking. If you're talking to them about religion, perhaps

710
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:11.440
<v Speaker 2>being skeptical, then you know, now you kind of know

711
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:13.480
<v Speaker 2>what it feels like to be in their shoes, as

712
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, as you've experienced from the other side. But

713
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:18.599
<v Speaker 2>one other thing I wanted to point out, Christy, and

714
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:22.719
<v Speaker 2>that is you mentioned something about how you didn't want

715
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:25.239
<v Speaker 2>to be the arbiter of what words mean, and I

716
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:27.440
<v Speaker 2>thought that that was an excellent example of what you

717
00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:31.559
<v Speaker 2>had mentioned earlier about over intellectualization and how we really

718
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:34.639
<v Speaker 2>get focused on what's in the deck in the dictionary

719
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:38.800
<v Speaker 2>about these words, when really what's important is understanding what

720
00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:40.360
<v Speaker 2>the person is meaning, what they.

721
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:43.079
<v Speaker 1>The idea that they're trying to convey, regardless of what

722
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.599
<v Speaker 1>mouth sounds come out of their face hole.

723
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.639
<v Speaker 2>In order to convey it, I would use almost word

724
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:50.599
<v Speaker 2>for word what you just said. So, yeah, that you

725
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:52.559
<v Speaker 2>exactly summed up what I was trying to say there.

726
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:54.679
<v Speaker 2>So I thought that was kind of a neat little uh,

727
00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:56.519
<v Speaker 2>a little flashback to that there.

728
00:41:56.719 --> 00:42:01.679
<v Speaker 1>Fair enough, Yeah, beautiful. Well let's talk to Nick in a, Massachusetts.

729
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:06.039
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, all right, hey Nick, Well, yeah, so I wanted

730
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:14.119
<v Speaker 5>to talk about consequentialism of mechanistically definable truths.

731
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, so walk us through that a little bit.

732
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:19.639
<v Speaker 1>Hit us with some definitions just so that we're all

733
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:21.960
<v Speaker 1>starting off on the same clean table.

734
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:26.760
<v Speaker 7>Okay, So like there's you know, so like every statement,

735
00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:31.280
<v Speaker 7>everything that can be said, anything that can be communicated

736
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.960
<v Speaker 7>through language, has that aspect of like you it's true

737
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:39.000
<v Speaker 7>that you can say it's true. So everything has some

738
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:42.559
<v Speaker 7>element of truth in that scope. Where but that's like

739
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:44.519
<v Speaker 7>the scope that we're talking about.

740
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:48.079
<v Speaker 1>Like truth by definition, like a foot is twelve inches

741
00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:51.440
<v Speaker 1>long because we define the word foot to mean something

742
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:54.159
<v Speaker 1>that is contains twelve inches? Do I do I have that?

743
00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:54.400
<v Speaker 5>Right?

744
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:55.039
<v Speaker 7>Yeah?

745
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:55.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

746
00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:01.320
<v Speaker 7>And basically like every single statement, imaginable, composable, have that property.

747
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:05.480
<v Speaker 7>But then I guess, like if we go further into

748
00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:09.840
<v Speaker 7>like what's the next sort of like truth paradigm that

749
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:12.639
<v Speaker 7>we're concerned with, I would say that, like I mean,

750
00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:16.000
<v Speaker 7>I gets like our main truth paradigm that we're concerned

751
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:20.559
<v Speaker 7>with is like mechanistic uh, like think like statements that

752
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:27.320
<v Speaker 7>can be like mechanistically verified and like proven too. Like

753
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.360
<v Speaker 7>so so like you'll you you you might have a

754
00:43:31.159 --> 00:43:34.280
<v Speaker 7>like you'll grab a statement and if you're reaching into

755
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:36.400
<v Speaker 7>a black box. You're you know, you don't know what

756
00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:38.360
<v Speaker 7>statement you're gonna pull out, So you don't know if

757
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:41.119
<v Speaker 7>like you're gonna be able to like generate a mechanistic,

758
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:47.480
<v Speaker 7>mechanistically possible representation of that you know, that idea, the claim,

759
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:49.679
<v Speaker 7>the sentence, whatever you want to call it, the information,

760
00:43:50.760 --> 00:43:56.079
<v Speaker 7>and so like that mechanistically like rely like consistently reliably

761
00:43:56.159 --> 00:44:01.639
<v Speaker 7>mechanistically coherent representation of the information is like the type

762
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:06.159
<v Speaker 7>of truth that we're concerned with, and especially when it

763
00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:10.280
<v Speaker 7>comes to like conversations about like God or supernatural things, like,

764
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:13.000
<v Speaker 7>we want to be able to have like a mechanistic,

765
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:17.400
<v Speaker 7>grounded representation of that information.

766
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:20.320
<v Speaker 1>So that we try to put it in order. For me,

767
00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.800
<v Speaker 1>what does this look like on the ground, What is

768
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:26.199
<v Speaker 1>a important statement that you're trying to apply these ideas

769
00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:27.960
<v Speaker 1>to Because I'm still having a little bit of trouble

770
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:31.599
<v Speaker 1>following or wrapping my head around some of these ideas.

771
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:35.679
<v Speaker 7>So, I mean, so is it like the position of

772
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:42.679
<v Speaker 7>a secular like government to be like, so there's like Christianity.

773
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:48.360
<v Speaker 7>It believes in the resurrection of a human being called

774
00:44:48.760 --> 00:44:52.920
<v Speaker 7>Jesus Christ, and this was like a one time event

775
00:44:53.400 --> 00:45:00.440
<v Speaker 7>and that this person like atomically reassembled and their heat nature.

776
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:06.639
<v Speaker 7>It came back like that's a mechanistically impossible statements like,

777
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:09.000
<v Speaker 7>so I mean to stay like I said it, I

778
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:11.960
<v Speaker 7>said the words, But it's not like there's no mechanistic

779
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:16.519
<v Speaker 7>reality that like into the future. You know that, Like

780
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.519
<v Speaker 7>you're not in the same reality anymore. If there, if

781
00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:22.719
<v Speaker 7>you're if you you're suddenly in a reality where that

782
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:23.320
<v Speaker 7>can happen.

783
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:30.519
<v Speaker 1>It's like, so, okay, so when feet have eleven inches? Yeah, scudder,

784
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:33.119
<v Speaker 1>are you able to parse any of this out or

785
00:45:33.159 --> 00:45:34.360
<v Speaker 1>help me see where we're going?

786
00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:38.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm having a little difficulty following Nick, But let me

787
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.559
<v Speaker 2>ask you a couple of questions that might clarify what

788
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:42.280
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about here. First of all, what is it

789
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.440
<v Speaker 2>that you mean by truth or true? Because that there

790
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:48.440
<v Speaker 2>are some there are a variety of ways that people

791
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:51.320
<v Speaker 2>use that term, and you know, if we're talking about

792
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:54.440
<v Speaker 2>the importance of it being the concepts that are being conveyed,

793
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.239
<v Speaker 2>I suppose we need to, you know, put our money

794
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:57.880
<v Speaker 2>where our mouth is and ask you what you mean

795
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.519
<v Speaker 2>by those terms. But my second question and would be,

796
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:06.880
<v Speaker 2>then are you distinguishing between something being true and something

797
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:11.559
<v Speaker 2>being Humans being able to demonstrate that something is true.

798
00:46:11.719 --> 00:46:13.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, because those are two different things, although obviously

799
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:17.079
<v Speaker 2>they're related to each other. I'm I'm not really sure

800
00:46:17.119 --> 00:46:20.960
<v Speaker 2>where the mechanistical aspect of it is coming in. Are

801
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:24.079
<v Speaker 2>you distinguishing between truth and demonstrability?

802
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:28.960
<v Speaker 7>So like it's you can, like so you can like

803
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:35.239
<v Speaker 7>codify into epistemology that it would be impossible for the

804
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:40.079
<v Speaker 7>sun to like suddenly slam onto the surface of the

805
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:43.800
<v Speaker 7>Earth in less than in less than like a second

806
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:45.760
<v Speaker 7>or like less than a tenth of a second. I

807
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:48.800
<v Speaker 7>don't know, I don't know what breaks like physics or

808
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:52.440
<v Speaker 7>how many seconds is like like under how many seconds

809
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:57.360
<v Speaker 7>is what constitutes breaking physics? But basically like that, you're

810
00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:00.400
<v Speaker 7>like you you can operate under that assumption, like that

811
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:05.679
<v Speaker 7>you can operate under that epistemological assumption that like that

812
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:09.719
<v Speaker 7>will not happen because it's mechanistically impossible. So like the

813
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:13.679
<v Speaker 7>like truth we're talking about here is like it like

814
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:19.039
<v Speaker 7>it's possible to happen in reality, Like so it's not possible.

815
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Rather, so are you saying that, I mean, if you

816
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.519
<v Speaker 2>think of like girdles in completeness theorem, if you think

817
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:27.840
<v Speaker 2>of like girdles in completeness theorem. One of the one

818
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:30.840
<v Speaker 2>of the implications of that is that in any kind

819
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:34.280
<v Speaker 2>of language that's used to describe reality, there are going

820
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.800
<v Speaker 2>to be truths that are cannot be determined to be true,

821
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:41.119
<v Speaker 2>And there will also be statements that are false even

822
00:47:41.159 --> 00:47:44.480
<v Speaker 2>though they can be proven to be true using that language.

823
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:47.679
<v Speaker 2>And and I think the point there was that languages

824
00:47:47.719 --> 00:47:51.119
<v Speaker 2>that we used to describe reality can be deficient when

825
00:47:51.159 --> 00:47:54.840
<v Speaker 2>in fully characterizing that that reality. Is that what you're

826
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:55.800
<v Speaker 2>talking about.

827
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:58.760
<v Speaker 7>Well, I think what you just said that from from

828
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:00.519
<v Speaker 7>my understanding of what you just said, I think you

829
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:03.800
<v Speaker 7>said that, like language doesn't really have a built in

830
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:08.960
<v Speaker 7>mechanism to like establish some sort of like mechanistic a

831
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:13.000
<v Speaker 7>priori clarification of like possibility.

832
00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:16.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think, so, what's your endgame then here?

833
00:48:17.159 --> 00:48:19.559
<v Speaker 2>If if that's kind of what you're saying, if there

834
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:21.920
<v Speaker 2>there is going to be some kind of disconnect between

835
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:26.199
<v Speaker 2>the language of truth and the actual values of truth,

836
00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:29.119
<v Speaker 2>is so where does this lead you? I mean, what

837
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:31.559
<v Speaker 2>you're so, let's say, let's say that we kind of

838
00:48:31.559 --> 00:48:35.599
<v Speaker 2>came to some kind of conclusion on that. Therefore, what so, like.

839
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:40.000
<v Speaker 7>I operate under the I don't like I grant freedom

840
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:43.679
<v Speaker 7>of religion, right, but I don't grant the possibility like

841
00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:47.840
<v Speaker 7>I'm granting the person the freedom to operate, like like

842
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:54.719
<v Speaker 7>I'm not interfering with their right to operate under false pretensions,

843
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:59.000
<v Speaker 7>but I'm like not opening it up for a possibility

844
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:04.760
<v Speaker 7>that it's possible to like resurrect by yourself in some

845
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:09.000
<v Speaker 7>cave when you're clinically dead for three days and you

846
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:13.079
<v Speaker 7>already started rotting like it's not you, it's not gonna happen.

847
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:17.239
<v Speaker 7>So like I'm going to operate under the assumption that

848
00:49:17.239 --> 00:49:22.000
<v Speaker 7>that like my government doesn't like doesn't recognize that as

849
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:26.039
<v Speaker 7>mechanistically possible or like a viable Uh.

850
00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:30.119
<v Speaker 1>Like I'm when I'm boiling it all down, Nick, I'm

851
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:33.159
<v Speaker 1>hearing that like fake things are fake and real things

852
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:35.719
<v Speaker 1>are real. I want to let you know I'm on

853
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:38.360
<v Speaker 1>board with going on this journey with you. I Am

854
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:41.400
<v Speaker 1>down to do the syllogisms and to throw out all

855
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.960
<v Speaker 1>of the big philosophy words and we can talk about

856
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:49.800
<v Speaker 1>consequentialism and morality and epistemology and some of these terms

857
00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.639
<v Speaker 1>that you're throwing our way. But I'm I don't know

858
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:55.480
<v Speaker 1>that you're putting them together in a way that makes

859
00:49:55.519 --> 00:49:59.960
<v Speaker 1>any organized sense. I don't want my failure to understand

860
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:03.239
<v Speaker 1>and what you're saying to be a form of dismissing

861
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:06.119
<v Speaker 1>everything that you're saying. But we've been after this for

862
00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:08.760
<v Speaker 1>a good few minutes, and I got to tell you,

863
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:11.920
<v Speaker 1>I think Scott and I are both really scratching our head.

864
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:14.639
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of our audience is scratching their head.

865
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.400
<v Speaker 1>And i'd really invite you to take what it is

866
00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:19.880
<v Speaker 1>that you are attempting to say and see if you

867
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:23.400
<v Speaker 1>can't explain it to a five year old, and see

868
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:26.159
<v Speaker 1>if you can't break it down a little bit further

869
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:29.239
<v Speaker 1>to make sure that you're clear on what it is

870
00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:31.760
<v Speaker 1>you're trying to say. I'm sorry if any of that

871
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:36.000
<v Speaker 1>feels disrespectful or defaming, but I think that your thesis

872
00:50:36.039 --> 00:50:38.679
<v Speaker 1>here needs is a little bit undercooked. Is that okay?

873
00:50:38.920 --> 00:50:43.039
<v Speaker 7>I mean I don't know if it's fully undercooked, but

874
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:46.480
<v Speaker 7>I get what you're saying. My whole thing is that

875
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:52.719
<v Speaker 7>there's like like if we're going to ground like conversation

876
00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:59.559
<v Speaker 7>in or anything you know, society Collin shows, town Hall

877
00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:04.639
<v Speaker 7>like podcasts or you know, like even comedy or like

878
00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:08.400
<v Speaker 7>you know, Congress or Costco or wherever you're.

879
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:10.960
<v Speaker 1>At, communication is what you're getting at, like everything that

880
00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:13.519
<v Speaker 1>you're describing. We were saying, if we're going to ground

881
00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:17.159
<v Speaker 1>our communication in something that something should be.

882
00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:20.840
<v Speaker 7>What, Well, it's not really like communication. It's more like

883
00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:23.440
<v Speaker 7>the social contract itself.

884
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:27.000
<v Speaker 1>Right, like as some kind of culture society Like.

885
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:30.400
<v Speaker 7>We we yeah, like that, Like that's kind of like

886
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:36.960
<v Speaker 7>the tying thread to anything, including communication. But it's just

887
00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:41.480
<v Speaker 7>like that's kind of like where I'm at with how

888
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:49.960
<v Speaker 7>religion like affects my outward position into like you know,

889
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:53.119
<v Speaker 7>the like because every no one from my day to

890
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:56.360
<v Speaker 7>day experience. People aren't like walking around like reciting their

891
00:51:56.679 --> 00:52:01.679
<v Speaker 7>epistemology or you know, they're like what their reality is

892
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:05.440
<v Speaker 7>grounded on. But I kind of like expect that my

893
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:09.519
<v Speaker 7>government doesn't really operate in that loose sense and that

894
00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:12.840
<v Speaker 7>like it's doing it like it's having some sort of

895
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:17.880
<v Speaker 7>due diligence in not really like going back and reconsidering

896
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:22.480
<v Speaker 7>things that have already been like mechanistically discounted. Does that

897
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:22.920
<v Speaker 7>make sense?

898
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:26.280
<v Speaker 1>So like saying data driven government is something that I

899
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:29.119
<v Speaker 1>think we can all sort of co sign. That is

900
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:32.360
<v Speaker 1>certainly a world that I aspire to, even if as

901
00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:36.719
<v Speaker 1>I've become increasingly frustrated about our capacity to provide for

902
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:40.880
<v Speaker 1>that right now. But beyond that, Nick, I don't know

903
00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:44.360
<v Speaker 1>that we're getting any closer to a mutual understanding. And

904
00:52:44.519 --> 00:52:46.960
<v Speaker 1>I'd love to invite you to spend some time with

905
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:50.719
<v Speaker 1>these ideas, maybe bounce them back and forth with CHATCHYBT

906
00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:52.880
<v Speaker 1>until you feel like you have something that's a little

907
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.760
<v Speaker 1>bit more clean and ready to present, and when you're ready,

908
00:52:55.880 --> 00:52:57.960
<v Speaker 1>give us a call back. Bring your a game, as

909
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.599
<v Speaker 1>we like to say, because i'd love to bet understand

910
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:03.320
<v Speaker 1>what it is that you're talking about. But now, over

911
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:07.239
<v Speaker 1>ten minutes into it, I'm even more less certain I

912
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.679
<v Speaker 1>understand what you're saying than I did when we very

913
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:13.559
<v Speaker 1>first began, So respectfully, please work on it a little bit,

914
00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:17.000
<v Speaker 1>give us another try, and we'd love to better understand

915
00:53:17.000 --> 00:53:18.480
<v Speaker 1>what it is you're looking to express.

916
00:53:18.760 --> 00:53:21.480
<v Speaker 7>So well, Okay, last time, question? Is there like is

917
00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:23.920
<v Speaker 7>there a way like do you think it's appropriate for

918
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:31.519
<v Speaker 7>a government to take like positions and active actively or

919
00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:36.480
<v Speaker 7>active like our counter to religious beliefs like?

920
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:40.400
<v Speaker 1>So, I mean appropriate is a very complicated term that

921
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:43.360
<v Speaker 1>covers all manner of sins. You know, if you are

922
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:48.559
<v Speaker 1>existing under a religious law, then is it appropriate for

923
00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:52.800
<v Speaker 1>the government to support religious ideas? I guess does it

924
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:55.840
<v Speaker 1>make it beneficial, does it make it useful, does it

925
00:53:55.880 --> 00:54:00.519
<v Speaker 1>make it desirable? Absolutely not. I do wish that our government,

926
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:03.480
<v Speaker 1>in particular here in Texas, here in the United States,

927
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:08.239
<v Speaker 1>was more data driven, was less interested in tradition, was

928
00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:13.599
<v Speaker 1>less interested in the religion that we don't necessarily officially endorse,

929
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:17.360
<v Speaker 1>but increasingly we're pretty comfortable with endorsing it. All of

930
00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:21.280
<v Speaker 1>that is very concerning to me. But I don't really

931
00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:24.039
<v Speaker 1>know how to answer your question any further than that,

932
00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:26.440
<v Speaker 1>And I think, unfortunately we're gonna need to leave it

933
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:28.880
<v Speaker 1>there so that we can open up the calls to

934
00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:30.400
<v Speaker 1>or the lines of some other calls.

935
00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:33.719
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, I feel you like when

936
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:36.079
<v Speaker 7>we bring it to like government and context, it's like

937
00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:40.079
<v Speaker 7>democracy seems to be able to it seems to change

938
00:54:40.159 --> 00:54:42.639
<v Speaker 7>what it thinks it can vote on with respect to

939
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:45.360
<v Speaker 7>other people's rights. So it's just like it's always putting

940
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:49.960
<v Speaker 7>itself in danger and peril because it's like, uh, like

941
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:54.079
<v Speaker 7>there's powers that want to make less freedom or democracy

942
00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:54.880
<v Speaker 7>or whatever. Whatever.

943
00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:56.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, Nick, maybe we can leave maybe we can leave

944
00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:57.880
<v Speaker 2>you with this idea here.

945
00:54:57.920 --> 00:54:58.159
<v Speaker 1>I do.

946
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:03.159
<v Speaker 2>It's clear that you're struggling to clarify and explain something

947
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:05.519
<v Speaker 2>that you think that you feel is important in your mind.

948
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:09.000
<v Speaker 2>And in a way, I'm envious of you because you

949
00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:11.280
<v Speaker 2>have a wonderful puzzle in front of you to kind

950
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:16.719
<v Speaker 2>of uh put together. I would recommend Christie's advice and

951
00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:18.960
<v Speaker 2>think of it. Try to explain it like you were

952
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.679
<v Speaker 2>explaining it to a five year old. You know, teachers

953
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:23.679
<v Speaker 2>say the best way to learn something is to try

954
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:26.960
<v Speaker 2>to teach it, and it really focuses forces you to

955
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:30.360
<v Speaker 2>look at something in a particular way. What's important, What

956
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:32.800
<v Speaker 2>are the connections and relationships that are important, What are

957
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:34.719
<v Speaker 2>the facts and the quantities that are important, and that

958
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:37.239
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing. And so I think if you did

959
00:55:37.239 --> 00:55:40.039
<v Speaker 2>something like that, try to try to break down what

960
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:41.960
<v Speaker 2>you're trying to say as if you were talking to

961
00:55:42.039 --> 00:55:44.280
<v Speaker 2>a five year old, and then and then from there

962
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:48.079
<v Speaker 2>you can become you can add sophistication and nuance and

963
00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:49.719
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing, and then and then build it

964
00:55:49.800 --> 00:55:52.239
<v Speaker 2>up to something a little bit stronger. But yeah, I

965
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:55.280
<v Speaker 2>was I was having difficulty following you there. And it's

966
00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:58.480
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily your fault. It's it's, uh, this is a

967
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:01.079
<v Speaker 2>great example here. Clearly you have a passion about this

968
00:56:01.159 --> 00:56:03.599
<v Speaker 2>subject and you're struggling with the logic of it, and

969
00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:06.119
<v Speaker 2>so you need to find that appropriate balance. And so

970
00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:08.639
<v Speaker 2>I wish you luck with that, and I look forward

971
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 2>to talking to you at a future time if and

972
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:14.599
<v Speaker 2>when you were able to kind of solidify it a

973
00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:16.400
<v Speaker 2>little bit more and come up with something a little

974
00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:17.199
<v Speaker 2>bit more concrete.

975
00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:19.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I definitely do hope to hear from Nick again,

976
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:22.719
<v Speaker 1>because I think he was pressing on some pretty interesting

977
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:28.440
<v Speaker 1>sociological big topics. But what those topics were I couldn't

978
00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:31.400
<v Speaker 1>really say. I won't say it, but there was somebody

979
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:33.760
<v Speaker 1>in the chat who compared it to vog on poetry,

980
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:36.599
<v Speaker 1>and I thought that that was just brilliant. So thank

981
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:41.320
<v Speaker 1>you for that. And before we move on move back

982
00:56:41.360 --> 00:56:43.800
<v Speaker 1>to the calls, I did want to take a quick

983
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:47.159
<v Speaker 1>moment to thank our top five patrons. Each week we

984
00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:49.880
<v Speaker 1>do like to recognize five of the people, six of

985
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:54.199
<v Speaker 1>the people really who contribute to the ACA at tiny dot,

986
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:58.280
<v Speaker 1>cc slash, Patreon, thch you can be one of these

987
00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:01.000
<v Speaker 1>wonderful folks, But for this week, I do want to

988
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:05.320
<v Speaker 1>recognize and our top spot oops all Singularity number two

989
00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:10.840
<v Speaker 1>Dingleberry Jackson, three co Levi Helvetti, number four Ja Caltoon

990
00:57:11.239 --> 00:57:16.159
<v Speaker 1>and number five Moldrid d Malcontent. Seeing a little bit

991
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:19.639
<v Speaker 1>of movement in those bottom spots, which is always exciting

992
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:24.440
<v Speaker 1>at a competition. Yeah, right, and then our honorable mention

993
00:57:24.599 --> 00:57:27.440
<v Speaker 1>this week in the number six spot is Joseph Schmidt.

994
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:30.719
<v Speaker 1>So thank you all very much for all of your support,

995
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:34.440
<v Speaker 1>and we invite everybody watching to support us there or

996
00:57:34.480 --> 00:57:38.519
<v Speaker 1>through a super chat, or really to just support by

997
00:57:38.599 --> 00:57:43.840
<v Speaker 1>joining the community, by you know, going to Atheist hyphencommunity

998
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:48.079
<v Speaker 1>dot org, looking into membership, being up to date on

999
00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:51.480
<v Speaker 1>what's going on in the organization. We really do hope

1000
00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:55.000
<v Speaker 1>that people will take this beyond the shows, beyond being

1001
00:57:55.079 --> 00:57:59.199
<v Speaker 1>a passive viewer and subscriber on YouTube, as much as

1002
00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:03.039
<v Speaker 1>we do appreciate all of your likes and subscribes. Okay,

1003
00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:06.400
<v Speaker 1>and actually, you know, we have had so much trouble

1004
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:09.519
<v Speaker 1>with the phone lines today, it looks like we are

1005
00:58:09.800 --> 00:58:12.880
<v Speaker 1>getting that pieced back together. I hope that we're able

1006
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:15.000
<v Speaker 1>to speak to some of the folks that I know

1007
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:19.320
<v Speaker 1>we're waiting on the lines. Yeah, Scott, do you as

1008
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:24.679
<v Speaker 1>a teacher, As a teacher who studies mathematics and abstract concepts.

1009
00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:29.400
<v Speaker 1>What can you offer folks like Nick who are maybe

1010
00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:33.280
<v Speaker 1>just not able to take these big ideas and put

1011
00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:36.239
<v Speaker 1>them out into the world in like clear and easy

1012
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:37.320
<v Speaker 1>to understand language.

1013
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think what he did today was an excellent

1014
00:58:40.639 --> 00:58:44.239
<v Speaker 2>first step, I mean trying to It's one thing to

1015
00:58:44.280 --> 00:58:48.599
<v Speaker 2>have a concept in your mind and struggle to understand it.

1016
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:51.280
<v Speaker 2>But if if you can't, I mean, like the old saying,

1017
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:53.679
<v Speaker 2>oh is if you can't explain it to somebody like

1018
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:55.400
<v Speaker 2>their a five year old, then you don't really have

1019
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:59.239
<v Speaker 2>a good grasp on it. And that's not true, literally true.

1020
00:58:59.239 --> 00:59:00.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean you can have a good grasp on it

1021
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:03.360
<v Speaker 2>and still struggle to find the communication and find the

1022
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:06.960
<v Speaker 2>way of explaining it. But going through that process of

1023
00:59:07.320 --> 00:59:11.079
<v Speaker 2>talking to somebody, of getting feedback from that person, he

1024
00:59:11.159 --> 00:59:14.280
<v Speaker 2>got some feedback from us. Even if that feedback amounted

1025
00:59:14.320 --> 00:59:17.360
<v Speaker 2>to mostly we're not really sure what you're talking about,

1026
00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that kind of tells him that the way

1027
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:25.440
<v Speaker 2>he's describing this concept that he's thinking, there's it's a

1028
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:28.599
<v Speaker 2>little bit lacking. And we know that our language kind

1029
00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:33.079
<v Speaker 2>of informs about our thinking process, and so by listening

1030
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:35.559
<v Speaker 2>to the I would encourage him to go back and

1031
00:59:35.599 --> 00:59:37.639
<v Speaker 2>listen to the way he described it. He might be

1032
00:59:37.639 --> 00:59:40.079
<v Speaker 2>able to spot way different ways that he could describe

1033
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:43.159
<v Speaker 2>it better. But I think the key to wrestling with

1034
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:47.199
<v Speaker 2>those kind of things is really just breaking it down.

1035
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:49.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean that, you know, if you want to teach something,

1036
00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:52.960
<v Speaker 2>you need to understand what the important points are. You

1037
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:55.639
<v Speaker 2>need to understand how they relate to each other. You

1038
00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:58.559
<v Speaker 2>need to understand how those points relate to maybe what

1039
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:01.159
<v Speaker 2>we were talking about yesterday, and how they are going

1040
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:03.119
<v Speaker 2>to relate to what we're going to talk about tomorrow

1041
01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:05.519
<v Speaker 2>and that kind of thing. And so it's just really

1042
01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:10.480
<v Speaker 2>just having some kind of process where you break it down.

1043
01:00:10.519 --> 01:00:13.000
<v Speaker 2>And I think the best way to do that is

1044
01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:15.880
<v Speaker 2>to talk to other people. And so, you know, talk

1045
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:17.840
<v Speaker 2>to people like us. Talk to people that might be

1046
01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:21.320
<v Speaker 2>more inclined to maybe accept what you're saying, or maybe

1047
01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:23.639
<v Speaker 2>even that agree with what you're saying. Or maybe you'll

1048
01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:26.079
<v Speaker 2>hear somebody say something that you think, oh, yeah, that's

1049
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:28.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of like what I was talking about. Talk to them,

1050
01:00:28.599 --> 01:00:30.519
<v Speaker 2>tell them what Maybe they you know, maybe they can

1051
01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:33.159
<v Speaker 2>make a connection with your concepts a little bit easier.

1052
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:36.840
<v Speaker 2>But you'll get that feedback from them, and so seeing

1053
01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:41.440
<v Speaker 2>the feedback of other people can really enlighten you know,

1054
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:45.599
<v Speaker 2>your own opinion of your of that concept yourself. And

1055
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:48.360
<v Speaker 2>we can even see that in our discussion with Tucker earlier.

1056
01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:52.159
<v Speaker 2>Tucker was talking about, you know, having a belief and

1057
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:57.280
<v Speaker 2>having that belief being criticized, maybe even unfairly criticized by

1058
01:00:57.320 --> 01:00:59.880
<v Speaker 2>other people, and so you can learn from that as well.

1059
01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:01.760
<v Speaker 2>It's not just a well, I'm not going to listen

1060
01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to you kind of thing, but you can find out, well,

1061
01:01:03.960 --> 01:01:06.000
<v Speaker 2>why are you being critical? Why do you think that's

1062
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:09.480
<v Speaker 2>a fair criticism, or maybe asking yourself, why am I

1063
01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:12.400
<v Speaker 2>being defensive? Or why why am I Why am I

1064
01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:16.039
<v Speaker 2>feeling that I'm being attacked here? Is it because of

1065
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:18.679
<v Speaker 2>I am actually being attacked or is it because I'm

1066
01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:22.119
<v Speaker 2>being defensive of my own beliefs? And so it's a

1067
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:26.159
<v Speaker 2>it's a very it's a very challenging labyrinth to uh

1068
01:01:26.239 --> 01:01:29.320
<v Speaker 2>to navigate, but it it is navigable if you have

1069
01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:32.159
<v Speaker 2>that passion and that that motivation to move forward and

1070
01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:35.199
<v Speaker 2>you have those basic tools of application that can that

1071
01:01:35.239 --> 01:01:37.800
<v Speaker 2>can get you through that made so it's uh, you know,

1072
01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:41.800
<v Speaker 2>that was a big question that you were asking, and

1073
01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:43.760
<v Speaker 2>so you know it's it's the way that we each

1074
01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:45.639
<v Speaker 2>approach it I think can be very valuable.

1075
01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:46.760
<v Speaker 1>But I think the.

1076
01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Key step, though, is to just talk about it. Just

1077
01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:52.159
<v Speaker 2>talk to other people, talk to yourself about it. I

1078
01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:54.320
<v Speaker 2>mean that if I had a thought like that in

1079
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:56.639
<v Speaker 2>my head and I didn't have anything else going on,

1080
01:01:56.719 --> 01:01:59.079
<v Speaker 2>I could see myself just sitting there and just thinking

1081
01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:03.360
<v Speaker 2>about it for and and and you.

1082
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:05.760
<v Speaker 1>Need to bring it out into the real world.

1083
01:02:05.880 --> 01:02:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, exactly.

1084
01:02:07.119 --> 01:02:10.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Something else I want to circle here is that

1085
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:12.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, you and I are not afraid of using

1086
01:02:12.280 --> 01:02:15.880
<v Speaker 1>the big words, like we can shorthand things by not

1087
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:19.400
<v Speaker 1>having to explain every single concept and just sort of

1088
01:02:19.519 --> 01:02:23.239
<v Speaker 1>drop in epistemology or consequentialism or some of the other

1089
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:27.519
<v Speaker 1>things that that I'm sorry Nick was hitting on, but

1090
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.440
<v Speaker 1>I think there's a lot to be said about scaffolding.

1091
01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:34.199
<v Speaker 1>Like when I was at university, I found that, in

1092
01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:38.639
<v Speaker 1>particular in the fields of mathematics, I would have professors

1093
01:02:38.679 --> 01:02:42.440
<v Speaker 1>that I'm relatively certain were pretty brilliant, that we're like

1094
01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:46.400
<v Speaker 1>doing advanced research and that we're very well respected in

1095
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:50.360
<v Speaker 1>their fields, who couldn't teach for shit, whose classes were

1096
01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:54.239
<v Speaker 1>just like an absolute drudgery because they didn't have that

1097
01:02:54.360 --> 01:02:59.360
<v Speaker 1>capacity to offer that intellectual scaffolding to make it accessible

1098
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:02.480
<v Speaker 1>to others, which is not for nothing why I'm so

1099
01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:06.199
<v Speaker 1>blown away by folks like Forrest Valkei, who can be

1100
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:11.519
<v Speaker 1>just absolutely brilliant and able to explain it to a

1101
01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:14.920
<v Speaker 1>five year old without missing a beat. So, if you

1102
01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:19.199
<v Speaker 1>are holding one of these like challenging, difficult to wrap

1103
01:03:19.239 --> 01:03:23.039
<v Speaker 1>your hands around philosophical concepts in your head and you

1104
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:25.079
<v Speaker 1>want to give us a call about it, don't be

1105
01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:28.639
<v Speaker 1>frightened to use those big words, but make sure that

1106
01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:32.000
<v Speaker 1>you are able to distill it down for a broad

1107
01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:35.400
<v Speaker 1>and general audience. And you know, the hosts on these shows,

1108
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:37.639
<v Speaker 1>we're ready to go on those journeys with you, but

1109
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:39.760
<v Speaker 1>we all have our own skill sets, we all have

1110
01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:43.079
<v Speaker 1>our own backgrounds, and if the two of us have

1111
01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:47.079
<v Speaker 1>no concept of what we're even discussing, it's unlikely that

1112
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:50.400
<v Speaker 1>the audience is able to really get much out of

1113
01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:52.400
<v Speaker 1>it either. Is that all fair to say? Yeah?

1114
01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:55.119
<v Speaker 2>Definitely, And in addition to that, I would add that,

1115
01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:58.079
<v Speaker 2>go and look back at your own discussion. You know,

1116
01:03:58.119 --> 01:04:00.360
<v Speaker 2>if you can identify the place, if you feel like

1117
01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:02.599
<v Speaker 2>we were kind of with you for a second and

1118
01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:05.119
<v Speaker 2>then we got lost at one point. That's a that's

1119
01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:07.159
<v Speaker 2>a big red flag there, you know what was just

1120
01:04:07.239 --> 01:04:10.360
<v Speaker 2>said that caused that rift. And so by looking back

1121
01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:12.880
<v Speaker 2>at the interaction, look at the kind of questions that

1122
01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:15.719
<v Speaker 2>are being asked, look at the at the kind of uh,

1123
01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:18.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, facial expressions and that kind of thing that

1124
01:04:18.519 --> 01:04:21.440
<v Speaker 2>that you're getting. And so by looking back at your conversation,

1125
01:04:21.599 --> 01:04:24.079
<v Speaker 2>not only can you learn, oh, here's where I did

1126
01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:26.519
<v Speaker 2>really well, here's where I didn't do really well, but

1127
01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:28.880
<v Speaker 2>you can also see things that you might not have

1128
01:04:29.039 --> 01:04:32.039
<v Speaker 2>noticed during the course of the conversation. And so I

1129
01:04:33.159 --> 01:04:37.000
<v Speaker 2>think that self reflection, I think is an excellent starting point.

1130
01:04:37.000 --> 01:04:39.519
<v Speaker 2>And I think that uh, you know, that's really the

1131
01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:41.920
<v Speaker 2>first step into having that deep understanding. If you want

1132
01:04:41.920 --> 01:04:44.400
<v Speaker 2>to get to that point where you understand something well

1133
01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:46.760
<v Speaker 2>enough that you can explain it to a five year old,

1134
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:48.559
<v Speaker 2>you have to talk to a few five year olds.

1135
01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:50.800
<v Speaker 2>You have to understand how a five year old thinks.

1136
01:04:50.840 --> 01:04:53.519
<v Speaker 2>You have to understand the presuppositions they're bringing in, and

1137
01:04:53.559 --> 01:04:56.239
<v Speaker 2>so on and so forth, and so that's I mean,

1138
01:04:56.599 --> 01:04:58.559
<v Speaker 2>I guess that's kind of the theme of the show today,

1139
01:04:58.639 --> 01:05:01.280
<v Speaker 2>right how we can integrate those that logical thinking with

1140
01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:05.400
<v Speaker 2>that emotional component, you know, talking to a human being

1141
01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:08.880
<v Speaker 2>trying to convey that concept is to get from inside

1142
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:12.119
<v Speaker 2>of my mind into my student's mind. I mean, that's

1143
01:05:12.199 --> 01:05:16.000
<v Speaker 2>really the challenging, the difficult part to navigate, right, That's

1144
01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:19.360
<v Speaker 2>that chasm that we're trying to cross. And if you can,

1145
01:05:19.639 --> 01:05:21.880
<v Speaker 2>if you can do that, if you take those steps

1146
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:25.119
<v Speaker 2>by talking to people that disagree with you, and also

1147
01:05:25.159 --> 01:05:27.840
<v Speaker 2>by talking to people that agree with you, by talking

1148
01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.679
<v Speaker 2>to people that don't know about what you're talking about,

1149
01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:33.079
<v Speaker 2>and by talking to people that do know what you're

1150
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:35.840
<v Speaker 2>talking about, you can get you can incorporate all that

1151
01:05:35.960 --> 01:05:39.920
<v Speaker 2>kind of feedback and you know, if you internalize it

1152
01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:42.280
<v Speaker 2>and think about it and digest it, and then maybe

1153
01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:44.159
<v Speaker 2>next time what comes out will be a little bit

1154
01:05:44.199 --> 01:05:47.639
<v Speaker 2>more clear and a little bit more understanding sure or understandable.

1155
01:05:47.679 --> 01:05:50.519
<v Speaker 1>I should say, yeah, well, so before I let you

1156
01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:54.079
<v Speaker 1>out the door, I did want to ask, just as

1157
01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:58.239
<v Speaker 1>we are talking about, you know, awe and grief and transcendence,

1158
01:05:58.280 --> 01:06:01.679
<v Speaker 1>and he's very like, send some mental sort of words

1159
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:05.039
<v Speaker 1>or earlier in the show, Tucker used the words spiritual,

1160
01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:08.239
<v Speaker 1>which we never quite defined, but that I like to

1161
01:06:08.320 --> 01:06:12.440
<v Speaker 1>kind of kick around as a interesting if challenging concept.

1162
01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:18.000
<v Speaker 1>In any case, whenever we're talking about awe, grief, transcendence,

1163
01:06:18.079 --> 01:06:21.880
<v Speaker 1>these types of things in secular spaces, is there pressure

1164
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:25.480
<v Speaker 1>to you know, kind of qualify it or to bring

1165
01:06:25.559 --> 01:06:29.360
<v Speaker 1>it down and take some of the majesty out of it,

1166
01:06:29.440 --> 01:06:32.800
<v Speaker 1>to find rationality in all of it, or are we

1167
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:35.719
<v Speaker 1>allowed to, I guess, to use those words and to

1168
01:06:35.960 --> 01:06:38.280
<v Speaker 1>explore that those bigger feelings.

1169
01:06:39.039 --> 01:06:41.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, of course, I think there there would have to

1170
01:06:41.239 --> 01:06:43.679
<v Speaker 2>be room for that kind of thing. You know, I'm

1171
01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:46.559
<v Speaker 2>a math teacher. Yeah, but I'm a human being as well.

1172
01:06:46.639 --> 01:06:48.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, I have very deep emotions I have. I

1173
01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:52.159
<v Speaker 2>am in awe of certain things. I experience grief, I

1174
01:06:52.239 --> 01:06:56.519
<v Speaker 2>experience elation, you know, I have the full spectral spectrum

1175
01:06:56.559 --> 01:07:00.599
<v Speaker 2>of emotions. But I think that in some way, I

1176
01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:04.960
<v Speaker 2>think that there is pressure to maybe not address those

1177
01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:05.599
<v Speaker 2>kind of things.

1178
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:07.000
<v Speaker 1>But I think in other in.

1179
01:07:07.159 --> 01:07:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Very real other ways, there's also pressure to, you know,

1180
01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:15.840
<v Speaker 2>to incorporate that and to work that into your thought

1181
01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.880
<v Speaker 2>process and your communication process and so on.

1182
01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:22.719
<v Speaker 1>So we don't have to qualify or flinch away from

1183
01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:26.000
<v Speaker 1>exactly discussing some of these big picture things. Yeah.

1184
01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:29.119
<v Speaker 2>Right, And if you really want to be effective in communicating,

1185
01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:32.079
<v Speaker 2>which I think Christy, that's sorry to fanboy a little bit,

1186
01:07:32.119 --> 01:07:34.039
<v Speaker 2>but I think that's something that you do exceptionally well

1187
01:07:34.159 --> 01:07:37.000
<v Speaker 2>is actually make a connection with the with the caller.

1188
01:07:37.000 --> 01:07:39.159
<v Speaker 2>And if you want to do that, if you want

1189
01:07:39.159 --> 01:07:42.920
<v Speaker 2>to actually have a productive conversation, if you are really

1190
01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:46.880
<v Speaker 2>in search of the truth, then having that connection with

1191
01:07:46.960 --> 01:07:50.119
<v Speaker 2>another human being is really a key part of that

1192
01:07:50.199 --> 01:07:51.360
<v Speaker 2>step in my opinion.

1193
01:07:52.039 --> 01:07:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, So, finally, in this debate, not debate about

1194
01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:01.239
<v Speaker 1>you know, logic versus sentimentality or all of this, I

1195
01:08:01.280 --> 01:08:04.079
<v Speaker 1>want to ask, if we are in the process of

1196
01:08:04.159 --> 01:08:08.400
<v Speaker 1>reconstructing a worldview after religion, how do we avoid just

1197
01:08:08.440 --> 01:08:13.360
<v Speaker 1>building another system that privileges certain ways of knowing? Or

1198
01:08:13.639 --> 01:08:15.960
<v Speaker 1>are we meant to do that? Is it important that

1199
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:19.880
<v Speaker 1>we know things through particular means and not others?

1200
01:08:20.680 --> 01:08:23.600
<v Speaker 2>I think, well, in some ways where it's kind of

1201
01:08:23.600 --> 01:08:28.520
<v Speaker 2>inevitable that we're gonna do that way. Again, referencing Kinneman's

1202
01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:33.600
<v Speaker 2>book Thinking Fast and Slow, it's difficult to think slowly.

1203
01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:34.279
<v Speaker 1>It's difficult.

1204
01:08:34.359 --> 01:08:37.920
<v Speaker 2>There are some ways of thinking that are difficult, and

1205
01:08:38.840 --> 01:08:43.359
<v Speaker 2>as a math teacher, much of my duty is to

1206
01:08:44.279 --> 01:08:47.640
<v Speaker 2>help students embrace that difficult and show them that it's

1207
01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:50.199
<v Speaker 2>worth it, it's worthwhile to do that kind of thing.

1208
01:08:50.560 --> 01:08:52.600
<v Speaker 2>And if you can do that, if you can show

1209
01:08:52.680 --> 01:08:56.199
<v Speaker 2>that it's worthwhile to do that, to pursue that kind

1210
01:08:56.279 --> 01:09:00.600
<v Speaker 2>of challenging, difficult way of thinking, then you're you're in

1211
01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:02.960
<v Speaker 2>a way, you're co opting the quick way of thinking.

1212
01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:06.119
<v Speaker 2>You're saying, here's something that's valuable, go for it, go

1213
01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:09.079
<v Speaker 2>after that, And so that kind of gets that motivation

1214
01:09:10.439 --> 01:09:14.840
<v Speaker 2>going there. So I think if we were to rebuild society,

1215
01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:18.359
<v Speaker 2>I think it would be one of the keys. And

1216
01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:20.600
<v Speaker 2>of course, obviously this is just my opinion, but I

1217
01:09:20.600 --> 01:09:25.239
<v Speaker 2>think one of the keys would be to incorporate that

1218
01:09:25.399 --> 01:09:28.439
<v Speaker 2>kind of thinking. Incorporate we've been talking about balance, I think,

1219
01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:32.079
<v Speaker 2>recognizing that that kind of balance is needed, recognizing that

1220
01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:35.199
<v Speaker 2>the benefits of that kind of balance. Right, if you

1221
01:09:35.399 --> 01:09:38.119
<v Speaker 2>if you, as Nick found out, if you have difficulty

1222
01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:42.319
<v Speaker 2>communicating your ideas, it's difficult to get the logical kind

1223
01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:44.760
<v Speaker 2>of feedback that might help you break down the logic

1224
01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:48.159
<v Speaker 2>of your own thinking. And so, and especially since our

1225
01:09:48.199 --> 01:09:50.960
<v Speaker 2>own brains kind of think work along those lines too,

1226
01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:55.640
<v Speaker 2>are our original thinking processes were based off of our speaking,

1227
01:09:55.880 --> 01:09:58.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, the ways that we communicate. It started out

1228
01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:02.239
<v Speaker 2>as communication to yourself kind of thing, and so I

1229
01:10:02.279 --> 01:10:06.960
<v Speaker 2>think it's vital and critical to incorporate that kind of balance,

1230
01:10:07.279 --> 01:10:09.720
<v Speaker 2>and it would be it's going to be difficult to

1231
01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:11.920
<v Speaker 2>do that. If we ever get an opportunity to do

1232
01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:14.520
<v Speaker 2>something like that, it's going to be hard, and I

1233
01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:18.640
<v Speaker 2>think we need to embrace the difficulty and just understand

1234
01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:20.199
<v Speaker 2>that it's a worthwhile effort.

1235
01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Heard. Yeah, Well, so let's bring Jamie back into this

1236
01:10:24.079 --> 01:10:27.159
<v Speaker 1>conversation and get his take on some of these ideas

1237
01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:31.079
<v Speaker 1>and then help remind us about the question of the week, Jamie,

1238
01:10:31.319 --> 01:10:34.159
<v Speaker 1>how'd you like the show with all the technical difficulties

1239
01:10:34.199 --> 01:10:36.800
<v Speaker 1>and big confusing words.

1240
01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:42.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, I would say, despite being a hideous flesh golm

1241
01:10:42.039 --> 01:10:44.720
<v Speaker 3>that was birth from the birthing pools in the Black Country,

1242
01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:49.199
<v Speaker 3>the first has kept a session and an atheist third.

1243
01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:53.960
<v Speaker 3>So talking in that framework, talking about Tucker's call, I'd

1244
01:10:54.039 --> 01:10:56.960
<v Speaker 3>like to, you know, acknowledge and validate that having your

1245
01:10:57.000 --> 01:11:00.800
<v Speaker 3>ideas and beliefs criticized can be paid for. Because we

1246
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:03.520
<v Speaker 3>don't choose to believe something, we just believe it or

1247
01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:05.880
<v Speaker 3>we don't. You can't choose not to believe something you

1248
01:11:05.960 --> 01:11:08.760
<v Speaker 3>have to convince away from it to it. And I

1249
01:11:08.840 --> 01:11:12.119
<v Speaker 3>believes form part of our personality, our core. So who

1250
01:11:12.119 --> 01:11:13.960
<v Speaker 3>you what you believe is sort of who you are,

1251
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.000
<v Speaker 3>So it is very easy to feel attack. And I

1252
01:11:16.039 --> 01:11:20.319
<v Speaker 3>will also acknowledge that some members of the sort of

1253
01:11:20.319 --> 01:11:22.720
<v Speaker 3>skeptic community can be very sharp with their words, were

1254
01:11:22.760 --> 01:11:25.960
<v Speaker 3>known for it, and in certain circumstances I think you

1255
01:11:26.039 --> 01:11:28.279
<v Speaker 3>touched on this. We are encouraged to be sharp because

1256
01:11:28.319 --> 01:11:31.560
<v Speaker 3>it's entertaining, be sharite, sure to watch someone get a

1257
01:11:31.640 --> 01:11:34.079
<v Speaker 3>verbal drubbing. But then to come to the skeptic part.

1258
01:11:34.279 --> 01:11:38.439
<v Speaker 3>My view on belief and epistemology and things like that,

1259
01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:42.119
<v Speaker 3>the reasons to believe is that there's no safe minimum

1260
01:11:42.119 --> 01:11:45.279
<v Speaker 3>dose of bullshit. There's no safe dose of irrationality. I

1261
01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:48.960
<v Speaker 3>treat irrationality the same way I treat alcohol or drugs,

1262
01:11:50.000 --> 01:11:54.600
<v Speaker 3>in that I've indulged myself. There are eyehold certain irrational beliefs,

1263
01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:58.680
<v Speaker 3>but I understand their irrational and accept them, and therefore

1264
01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:02.199
<v Speaker 3>understand that if anyone critic sizes them and exposes the

1265
01:12:02.239 --> 01:12:06.760
<v Speaker 3>logical flaws in them, I'm believing in them knowing and

1266
01:12:07.239 --> 01:12:10.239
<v Speaker 3>much like though like those substances that can be comforting

1267
01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:14.920
<v Speaker 3>and can be can be fun, and can be you know,

1268
01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:18.640
<v Speaker 3>something to turn to in times of stress. They are

1269
01:12:18.640 --> 01:12:22.359
<v Speaker 3>inherently dangerous and damaging. I don't think irrational thought has

1270
01:12:23.279 --> 01:12:27.239
<v Speaker 3>While it has its emotional positives, it is intellectually damaging

1271
01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:33.000
<v Speaker 3>and I will pin myself to that. So, yes, if

1272
01:12:33.039 --> 01:12:35.960
<v Speaker 3>someone was rude and crass and callous to you, it's

1273
01:12:36.960 --> 01:12:40.439
<v Speaker 3>valid to feel bad. But you have to understand that

1274
01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:45.319
<v Speaker 3>the type of thought processes that allow someone to believe

1275
01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:48.279
<v Speaker 3>in psychics or ghosts or something, the same thought processes

1276
01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:52.239
<v Speaker 3>that lead people to be anti vacs or like flat

1277
01:12:52.319 --> 01:12:56.760
<v Speaker 3>earthers or moon landing denials or whatever. You know, ridiculousnesses

1278
01:12:56.800 --> 01:12:59.560
<v Speaker 3>that can cause real, true harm. So as that. As

1279
01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:04.880
<v Speaker 3>for Nick, we always say attack ideas, not people. That

1280
01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:07.760
<v Speaker 3>was very difficult to do because I had no idea

1281
01:13:07.800 --> 01:13:15.399
<v Speaker 3>what he was talking, Yeah, punching smoke. So I'm hoping

1282
01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:17.000
<v Speaker 3>that Nick calls back. I would like to have a

1283
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:20.000
<v Speaker 3>conversation with him, but I'm hoping that he does poll

1284
01:13:20.119 --> 01:13:23.359
<v Speaker 3>your advice and give his conversation and orchiect to me,

1285
01:13:23.640 --> 01:13:28.920
<v Speaker 3>as in, remove the bollocks please. And it may sound

1286
01:13:29.039 --> 01:13:32.159
<v Speaker 3>rich as whipping cream from someone that looks and sounds

1287
01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:36.479
<v Speaker 3>like me. But sounding smart is not being smart, and

1288
01:13:36.560 --> 01:13:38.960
<v Speaker 3>it is better to be smarter than you sound than

1289
01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:40.359
<v Speaker 3>sound smarter than you are.

1290
01:13:41.319 --> 01:13:47.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's deep words again, Eli five, Yeah, exactly.

1291
01:13:47.560 --> 01:13:49.960
<v Speaker 3>Oh And a reminder, since I didn't do it last time,

1292
01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:51.359
<v Speaker 3>but I'm going to do it this time that the

1293
01:13:51.479 --> 01:13:57.359
<v Speaker 3>question of the week is Jesus Mohammed and josh Or

1294
01:13:57.439 --> 01:14:02.880
<v Speaker 3>Smith Joseph Smith. Sorry, what a Mormon dude walk into

1295
01:14:02.880 --> 01:14:08.880
<v Speaker 3>a bar? I'm so sorry.

1296
01:14:10.079 --> 01:14:12.680
<v Speaker 1>No, thank you, thank you for coming out and for

1297
01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:15.399
<v Speaker 1>walking us through some of this. I am sort of

1298
01:14:15.439 --> 01:14:20.079
<v Speaker 1>fascinated by that question of is there some amount of

1299
01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:25.520
<v Speaker 1>irrationality that is good? Is all bullshit inevitably poison I mean,

1300
01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:28.960
<v Speaker 1>alcohol is poisoned. But I think there's at least some

1301
01:14:29.079 --> 01:14:34.279
<v Speaker 1>sociological evidence that cultures that have the ability to interfere

1302
01:14:34.319 --> 01:14:38.760
<v Speaker 1>with consciousness gain some benefit from it. Does that mean

1303
01:14:38.760 --> 01:14:40.560
<v Speaker 1>that we should all be allowed to have a little

1304
01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:43.399
<v Speaker 1>bit of delusion as a treat I don't know what

1305
01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:45.479
<v Speaker 1>to do with any of it, but I really appreciate

1306
01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:47.600
<v Speaker 1>the opportunity to kind of talk through some of these

1307
01:14:47.680 --> 01:14:51.239
<v Speaker 1>ideas with y'all. Who are y'all sending loverings out to?

1308
01:14:51.399 --> 01:14:52.399
<v Speaker 1>Before we head out.

1309
01:14:52.239 --> 01:14:56.319
<v Speaker 3>For today the millions of people around the country who

1310
01:14:56.359 --> 01:14:58.520
<v Speaker 3>did a wonderful thing yesterday, and I'll say no more

1311
01:14:58.560 --> 01:14:59.079
<v Speaker 3>than sure.

1312
01:14:59.159 --> 01:15:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we appreciate everybody who is contributing to our democracy,

1313
01:15:03.119 --> 01:15:06.239
<v Speaker 1>who is aware of the needs of the many right

1314
01:15:06.279 --> 01:15:09.279
<v Speaker 1>now and being a part of the good Scott anybody

1315
01:15:09.279 --> 01:15:09.479
<v Speaker 1>for you.

1316
01:15:09.960 --> 01:15:13.840
<v Speaker 2>I would like to send out loverings to Fried Jemmy,

1317
01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:16.520
<v Speaker 2>who gave us a superchat. Fried Jemmy, I think there's

1318
01:15:16.520 --> 01:15:18.840
<v Speaker 2>a story behind that name. I'd love to hear that sometimes.

1319
01:15:18.840 --> 01:15:22.079
<v Speaker 2>But the superchat was for five dollars, Fried Jemmy said,

1320
01:15:22.199 --> 01:15:24.760
<v Speaker 2>Jeremiah here. Sorry I wasn't able to wait online to

1321
01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:27.399
<v Speaker 2>talk with the host today. I had an unexpected company

1322
01:15:27.479 --> 01:15:30.600
<v Speaker 2>arrived right before my turn came up. Well, we're sorry

1323
01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>we missed you too, Jeremiah, but maybe next time.

1324
01:15:32.840 --> 01:15:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Glad to know I wasn't just stood up right exactly.

1325
01:15:36.359 --> 01:15:36.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1326
01:15:36.800 --> 01:15:40.399
<v Speaker 1>I want to send loverings out to everybody who endured

1327
01:15:40.439 --> 01:15:43.840
<v Speaker 1>with us through some technical issues, but mostly for just

1328
01:15:43.880 --> 01:15:46.479
<v Speaker 1>being a part of our community, for being here and

1329
01:15:46.600 --> 01:15:50.800
<v Speaker 1>participating in these conversations, and for recognizing that, you know,

1330
01:15:50.840 --> 01:15:53.880
<v Speaker 1>whether it's a lot or a little of delusion that

1331
01:15:54.119 --> 01:15:58.159
<v Speaker 1>having religion in our government and in our schools and

1332
01:15:58.279 --> 01:16:02.960
<v Speaker 1>in our decision making, in our relationships can be incredibly

1333
01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:06.159
<v Speaker 1>damaging and working to be a part of the solution

1334
01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:09.840
<v Speaker 1>on those issues. So we love you very much. We

1335
01:16:09.920 --> 01:16:12.159
<v Speaker 1>send out our rings. We appreciate you for being here.

1336
01:16:12.399 --> 01:16:16.039
<v Speaker 1>Happy Father's Day. And to anybody still watching, if you

1337
01:16:16.079 --> 01:16:19.239
<v Speaker 1>don't believe, this is your community and we appreciate you

1338
01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:22.159
<v Speaker 1>being here. And if you do believe, we definitely don't

1339
01:16:22.199 --> 01:16:44.159
<v Speaker 1>hate you. We're just just not convinced. We want the truth.

1340
01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:47.439
<v Speaker 1>So watch Truth Wanted live Fridays at seven pm Central

1341
01:16:47.800 --> 01:16:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Call five one two nine nine nine two four two

1342
01:16:51.359 --> 01:16:54.359
<v Speaker 1>or visit tiny dot cc forward slash call tw