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Every 60 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:30.520 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 61 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:34.800 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your 62 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:38.000 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 63 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:53.639 Good Evening nineteen eighty two, Oregon businessman Phil Champagne, age 64 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:58.560 fifty two, dies in a tragic voting accident off Lopez Island. 65 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:03.000 He survived by one ex wife, four adult children, an 66 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:07.319 octagenarian mother, and two despondent brothers. Phil didn't know he 67 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:09.879 was dead until he read it in the paper. All 68 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.199 things considered, he took it rather well. So did Phil's 69 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.120 brother Mitch, the beneficiary of a one point five million 70 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:21.599 dollar policy on Phil's life. Nineteen ninety two, Washington restaurant 71 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:25.719 tour Harold Stegeman, famous for his thick juicy steaks, is 72 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:29.000 arrested by the Secret Service for printing counterfeit United States 73 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:33.520 currency in an Idaho shed. In addition to the bogus bills, 74 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:38.479 Stegeman also has a fraudently obtained passport, a fabricated Cayman 75 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:43.879 Islands driver's license, and Phil Champaigne's fingerprints. When the uproarious 76 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.800 reality of Harold Stegemann's secret identity hit the headlines. The 77 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.919 Counterfeit Resurrection of Phil Champagne became one of the most 78 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:56.199 celebrated and hysterically funny true crime stories of the twentieth century. 79 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:00.919 And while every supermarket, tabloid and television talk show hounded 80 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:05.360 after the untold story, only Edgar Award winner Burl Bear 81 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:09.800 captured Champagne's confidence and received permission to detail Phil's post 82 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:14.159 mortem career of fraud, deception, trickery, lies and fine prime 83 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:17.000 rib bringing to life the exploits of a man his 84 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:20.639 family thought dead over a decade ago. The book that 85 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:25.040 we're featuring this evening is Man Overboard, The counter Counterfeit 86 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:28.920 Resurrection of Phil Champagne, with my special guest journalist and 87 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:33.839 author and podcaster Burrel Bear. Welcome back to IRAM, and 88 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.800 thank you for grady to to do the legendary Burl Bear. 89 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.600 It's always a pleasure to be on your show, Dad, 90 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:42.120 and you know it's not easy being a living legend. 91 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:46.399 I'm under more pressure than an astronaut and I do 92 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:51.240 understand that pressure, and so I'm glad you have not 93 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:53.160 succumbed to that pressure. And here we are now. 94 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.240 I'm a strong man. 95 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:00.439 Iron ironclad, iron man, the iron Man of true crime. Really, 96 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.800 that's right. This was actually my first true crime book, 97 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.480 and I think it's a source of amusement to me, 98 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.879 not having done a true crime book before when I 99 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.720 did this originally twenty years ago, and the one that's 100 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:17.839 out now is a brand new twentieth anniversary edition and 101 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.600 it's like one of those Criterion DVDs with the special 102 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.399 bonus features. It has bonus features that the original book 103 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:30.480 didn't have, including transcripts of the fed's interrogation of Harold's 104 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.920 stegment alias to live for Phil Champagne, and also some 105 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:37.240 other little tid vincid, a brand new afterward by Phil himself, 106 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.759 who is now eighty four years old, just as charming 107 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:43.120 as ever, and of course additional information, a new introduction 108 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:46.959 by legendary Barrel Bear. And it's a snazzy new publication. 109 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:50.680 It's both as an e book and a paperback, and 110 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:53.360 I'm really glad the book's out again and people are 111 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:58.759 getting kick out of it. Yes, absolutely so. I think 112 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.199 you've corrected me in the nunciation. I should have checked 113 00:06:01.240 --> 00:06:02.959 with that when we had a couple of minutes beforehand, 114 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:05.040 so it's Stegman or Stegman. 115 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:12.399 It doesn't really matter. It's segment, you know. Uh, we'll 116 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:16.120 get to the point of the story. We'll explain the alias, 117 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:19.800 why he had that alias, and what a horrifying, inadverted 118 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:21.920 mistake was to use that name. 119 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:27.040 But we'll yes, yes, absolutely absolutely, this is a fascinating story. 120 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:29.399 And as we mentioned, we might as well talk about 121 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:31.920 this a little bit too. Is that I think it's 122 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:34.600 interesting the background of this story as well, and of 123 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:36.959 course the follow up to this story. So we'll be talking. 124 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:39.480 We'll have that ability to talk about this, so not 125 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:42.199 only the book, but some of the things like having 126 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:47.160 Phil Champagne at a book signing, so that's that's very 127 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:49.560 very unique. But also I want to talk about because 128 00:06:49.639 --> 00:06:53.680 you know, I love dropping names myself and tell us 129 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.639 how you really came to write this book and and 130 00:06:57.839 --> 00:06:59.319 the and rule connection. 131 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:02.560 Well, yeah, this is a strange one. It was a 132 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.680 Sunday night at home, minding my own business in Walla Walla, Washington, 133 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:10.120 about that twenty one years ago, and I got a 134 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.120 phone call out of as sky King was saying, out 135 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:15.480 of clear blue of the western sky, I get a 136 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.279 phone call from Buck Ormsby now Buck Oramsby is a 137 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:22.519 very famous and highly regarded musician bass player for the 138 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:26.519 legendary Pacific Northwest group of the Whalers. And he and 139 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.199 I are not close personal friends, but I'd say we're acquaintances. 140 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.480 You know, we've known each other on off for decades 141 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:34.079 and for me to get a call from him at 142 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:38.920 home was very surprising, and he says, there is this 143 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.759 true crime case that I want to know if you're 144 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:47.199 interested in writing about. Apparently Ann the Rule had been 145 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:50.439 approached about the book and her play was pretty full. 146 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.839 My name came up and he gave me a call. 147 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:57.040 I said, well, facts for the information. Well, now you 148 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:00.399 remember fax machines, the kind of a combination between a 149 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:03.879 telephone and the printer, And all of a sudden they're 150 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:08.800 getting all these newspaper articles. So this bizarre story of 151 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:13.199 this guy Harold's Segment arrested for counterfeiting, and then they 152 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:15.519 figure out he's not really Harold's Segment, but they don't 153 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:18.519 know who he is. And it just got crazier from there. 154 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:20.839 And it turned out he was a guy named Phil 155 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.759 Champagne who had been dead for ten years. And I went, yeah, 156 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:28.120 this is fascinating. I've got to find out what in 157 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.560 the world this is about. So Phil consented to meet 158 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:36.399 with me. Now, apparently several other authors had gone to Phil. 159 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:38.480 And because this story at the time was one of 160 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:41.879 those top of mind, everyone talking about it, all the 161 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:46.600 tabloid talk shows, you know, wanted this story. I wanted 162 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:48.279 to get in there and talk to Phil because people 163 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.480 were just one of those things that captured people's imagination 164 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:55.320 right off the bat well. I guess other authors had 165 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.360 gone to see Phil in prison. He was his Geiger 166 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:03.440 Correctional Center of federal prison but Spokane, Washington, and I 167 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:06.679 figured in my mind that probably these guys showed up 168 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:09.919 looking like authors. And he said, you know, hi, I'm 169 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.159 an author. I want to do a book. I decided 170 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:15.080 I'd take a different approach. He knew who I was, 171 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:16.840 I knew why I was there. So I went to 172 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:18.960 a Geiger correctional center. I was just wearing jeans and 173 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:23.360 my Saints sweatshirt and it was a beautiful day and 174 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.320 being in some minimum security federal prison, uh, you know, 175 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:29.639 I was well, he wasn't behind plexiglass or anything. We 176 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.840 went outside a little pictic table and got a cup 177 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.240 of coffee in a styrofoam company. I just sat there 178 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.039 for a minute and I didn't say anything to him. 179 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.399 The first thing I said was Phil, how good were 180 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.840 the bills? A friend? You know? How good were the 181 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:45.960 counterfeit bills? 182 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:47.120 He said, always? 183 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:48.919 Just some of them made him all the way to 184 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.759 the Federal Reserve Bank before they were caught. Well, he 185 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:55.759 got busted because you know, they supposed to have been 186 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:59.559 buying pies, you know, things like this. I said, why 187 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:01.600 don't I just dan, Phils? Why didn't you take these 188 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.000 bills down on spray gathering? Spoken when you got the dough, 189 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:08.039 you know, drug dealers and stuff, you know, buy twenty 190 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:09.639 bucks with a dove with a one hundred dollars billion 191 00:10:09.679 --> 00:10:11.080 gets you change. He said, well I would do that, 192 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.200 but I'm sixty three years old. I know nothing about 193 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.840 drug dealers. I know nothing about bad sort of things. 194 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:18.919 So we bought pies instead. So we just started talking 195 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:24.120 about criminal matters, criminal things, you know. Didn't even discuss 196 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:26.200 a book until we were all done talking. He says, 197 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.480 what are you going to do the book? I said, yeah, 198 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.720 I've you the book, and so we hit it off. 199 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.360 We just hit it off right away. Similar sense as 200 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:37.879 of humor. I said, this is a nice correctional center, 201 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:39.279 and he goes, yeah, well, are you going to correct 202 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.200 my golf swing, my table manners? 203 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:44.879 Yeah? 204 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:49.759 Yeah. He's a real character. He's eighty four now and 205 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:51.919 he's every bit is charming. And this is one of 206 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:56.519 the things about philm and why the secret Service agent 207 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:59.000 who busted him will be the first to tell you 208 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:01.360 a guy named Lyle when he's retired now this is 209 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.360 his last case and his favorite one, and he said, 210 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:09.240 I really like Phil is he is the last of 211 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:14.039 the great gentleman crooks, as charming and polite as you 212 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.399 could possibly imagine, who was like like you were in 213 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:19.919 one of these old George Saunders Saint movies or a 214 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.600 Falcon movie with Tom Conway or the great Ronald Coleman, 215 00:11:25.159 --> 00:11:29.480 you know, handsome, suave, debonair charming. And that's exactly what 216 00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:34.039 Phil Champagne was like. It is like and now he 217 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:35.399 loved him. 218 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.840 What's fascinating about this story is because when we talk 219 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.080 about and you know, I think it conjures up that 220 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.159 idea catch me if you can, or the sort of 221 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.759 beneva and crook, the kind of criminal that really does 222 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:51.360 have some compassion and sympathy for people sort of the 223 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:55.200 robin hood of criminals, and everybody loves that kind of 224 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.080 even people get behind that kind of criminal and help 225 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:01.879 them avoid detect and conviction. 226 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.159 I mean, Phil never had an evil, evil plot in 227 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:08.080 his mind. What uh we were getting inhet of the 228 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.120 story or not. But you know, basically, as you said, 229 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:14.320 he falls off the sailboat. He's rescued by apparently an 230 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:16.799 illegal fisherman who's not going to take him to the hospital. 231 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:19.080 You know, it takes him back to his old cab. 232 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.279 Well, let's not burl, let's not quite go Let's not 233 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:26.000 go that quick, because this story really really demands that 234 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.919 we understand who Phil was and then who Phil became, 235 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.960 because unlike a lot of guys that have a life 236 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.559 of crime and then become a crook, this guy really 237 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:44.960 goes to a metamorphosis of incredible total translation. But before 238 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:49.200 this incredible event, he is this sort of a different character. 239 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.200 So if they made the movie about this guy's life 240 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.000 and he actually would have died as people thought, the 241 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.879 chapter would have been written one way, but instead he's 242 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:01.399 written about three different ways. So let's go back to 243 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.399 Let's go back to the lifestyle and the life of 244 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:10.039 Phil Champagne with his brother, Really, what was he involved with? 245 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.799 What kind of guy was he? And what was he 246 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.159 looking at and at what age and when? If he 247 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:18.840 looked back at his life, really, what was his life 248 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:20.279 like that? Well? 249 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:23.879 He was a respected Portland, Oregon businessman and essentially crime 250 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:27.399 for adult life, an excellent career and in otherwise lack 251 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:32.320 loss or existence. If his life could be described in 252 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.519 one word dull, two words dull and boring, he had 253 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:39.679 he kind of grew up. He didn't grow up any 254 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:41.639 sort of wealth at all, pretty much in poverty. He 255 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.919 and his brother's Mitch and John Robin, born in Seattle, 256 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:52.240 in a variety of jobs, worked as a milkman, you know, 257 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.200 of delivering milk one thing and another. His brother Mitch 258 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:01.200 and Phil and John Robin did form a rather successful 259 00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:06.080 construction company in Oregon, you know, building homes and that 260 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:09.039 sort of thing. And he had a wife and kids. 261 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:13.320 But the time of his demise he was going through 262 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:17.000 a very difficult divorce. This was the nineteen eighties when 263 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:19.240 I don't know if you were around them, but interest 264 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:23.679 rates in the United States were astronomical. It was it 265 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.639 became almost impossible to afford to buy a home because 266 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:30.559 the interest rates on your home loan would be so high. 267 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:34.440 This was really impacting the building industry. And you know, 268 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.320 things were difficult all the way around, and Phil was 269 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.639 getting pretty depressed. And so his brothers trying to cheer 270 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:45.200 him up, you know, said come on, we're going to 271 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:48.080 take you out on the sailboat. We're going to go up, 272 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:50.759 you know, around the San Juan Islands, and we're just 273 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.200 going to have a good time. You know, we'll drink, 274 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.240 we'll swap dirty stories, we'll sail around and just have 275 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:00.639 one of those weekends that brothers had where they forget 276 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.279 all their troubles. That was the idea. They just wanted 277 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:06.240 to cheer him up because, you know, might want to 278 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:07.600 call a midlife crisis. 279 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:07.840 Here. 280 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.440 He is his early fifties, you know, just turned fifty 281 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.639 short shortly before, and now things are bad at home, 282 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:19.240 things are rough at work. He's well respected, he's a 283 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.360 normal guy, you know, and he just needs a little entertainment. 284 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.840 So they take him out of the sailboat. Unfortunately, he 285 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.840 doesn't have his tech shoes on. He's drunk, and he 286 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:38.720 falls overboard and that single splash pursued by search slights 287 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.000 that came up with nothing. Coastguard search for thirteen hours 288 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:46.080 for his body. Of course, he didn't find it, and 289 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.720 it was devastating. I mean, the brothers were devastated here. 290 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:51.360 They took about for a good time and he winds 291 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:55.080 up dead. His wife, even though divorcing him, of course, 292 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.080 was unamused, as were the children, four kids that were grown. 293 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.799 They were adults, but you know, like so, when their 294 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.720 dad dies in a boating accident, the wife sues the 295 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.960 other two brothers for wrongful death and wins, of course, 296 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:12.320 and Phil was heavily insured because he was a key 297 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:16.440 man at this major reconstruction company. He was insured for 298 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:20.440 one point five million dollar. Key man insurance wasn't Phil's idea. 299 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.440 I talked to the insurance man who sold the policy, 300 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.799 and he's the one who talked Mitch into getting the policy. 301 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:28.759 He says, you know, you should have insurance on Phil, 302 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:32.840 he's key man, just in case God forbid something happens. Well, 303 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.840 when Phil died in that accident, the claim was put 304 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:40.440 in federal temper life insurance. Peter Richter was the investigator 305 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:43.440 on that. Due to the fact there wasn't a body recovered, 306 00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:46.279 they only paid half. I think it was about whatever 307 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:50.120 half of one point five million is, you know, six 308 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.840 seven hundred thousand. And that was that. And that was 309 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:56.519 that for ten years as far as anyone knew Phil 310 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:57.000 was dead. 311 00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:59.159 What about the what about the provision part of me? 312 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:01.919 What about the provision in there though that if he 313 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.240 were to turn up again, what was the policy? Like, 314 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.240 they paid out half and they're going to keep paying, 315 00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:09.640 but what was the provision inside. 316 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.279 If he turns up alive? Of course they have to 317 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:13.599 give the money back, right right? 318 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:17.880 But now, was there any suspicion when he fell overboard? 319 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.839 Was was there suspicion that there was some sort of conspiracy, 320 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:25.200 especially based on the one point five million payout? And 321 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:28.880 with that suspicion, they must have investigated. And what did 322 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:29.240 they find? 323 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.200 Well, all they had all the Coastguard records at Search 324 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:35.920 Chick and they said out a private investigator, MA, sure, 325 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:37.920 this is kind of interesting. WI. I didn't find outuntil 326 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:42.319 after I did the book. Phil and the brothers remembered 327 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.240 the name of the waitress who were hitten on the 328 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:49.400 waitress at this particular restaurant whether you know, of course 329 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.240 where the boat was, Say, hey had to come out 330 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:54.440 on the boat with us and all that, and she 331 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:56.559 waved goodbye to them as they took off. They all 332 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:01.519 remembered her name, and they remember the particulars. And when 333 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.680 the private detective hired by the insurance company went back 334 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:08.640 to the restaurant, he could not get any confirmation on anything, 335 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:13.079 couldn't get a straight answer. There was another waitress, but 336 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.559 the things didn't match up, but there was some aspects 337 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.960 of the story didn't quite pan out. Found out afterwards 338 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:23.960 that whoever the detective was that they sent out rubbed 339 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.640 everybody the wrong way. I don't know whether he smelled 340 00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:29.559 a booze or what the deal was, but they didn't 341 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:32.640 want to cooperate with him, and they didn't want to 342 00:18:32.680 --> 00:18:34.359 talk to him. They just got better. They didn't like 343 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.359 the guy. Got a good quality for a private detective. 344 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.920 And it turned out I was able to put together 345 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:46.000 the pieces and find out that there was a temporary 346 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:49.319 worker that evening they were shorthanded. They brought it a 347 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:53.039 temp worker. One thing and another and so a Phil's 348 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:57.200 story and the brother stories did check out and everything 349 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:00.599 was cool. There was no real reason to doubt that 350 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:04.839 Phil died in that accident, except for well, g we're 351 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.799 only going to pay out half because the body wasn't recovered, 352 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:09.759 you know, and if we ever fight out, this is 353 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:11.759 this game. Of course you have to give the money back, 354 00:19:12.599 --> 00:19:16.000 which they never had to do actually, but you can 355 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:16.759 get to that later. 356 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.920 Now tell us about though this is important to the story, 357 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.000 and let's not jump ahead because this is fascinating because 358 00:19:24.039 --> 00:19:28.240 you have access later to Phil Champagne. There's no other 359 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:31.440 way this story could have been told. There's no way. 360 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:34.240 There would just been a huge hole. And this story 361 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.359 can't have any holes because it's a tenuous connection all 362 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.599 the way through and this can only be explained through 363 00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:46.880 Phil Champagne. No one else knows. So campaign now tell us, 364 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:50.359 and this creates problems for his younger brother, John Robbin. 365 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.480 What is the drunken argument that these guys have? What 366 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:59.000 is it? What kind of deal is it concerning. 367 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:01.480 Y'all? You know, I'll have to look at my book 368 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:06.680 and remind myself. I know they do. What stupid? Are you? 369 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.559 Basically? What it? Basically? What it is? It's the argument 370 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.480 over how he says, listen, uh, you are to blame 371 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:17.440 for this cost overrun because. 372 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.960 They didn't oh yeah yeah, yeah, they had water coming 373 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.759 in as the Codwood condominium development in Portland suburb. Uh 374 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:28.880 they cost overruns because drainage problems, which I thought was 375 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:34.079 interesting that the problem revolved around water. They're out on 376 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.920 the water arguing about water and Phil falls overboard. It's 377 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.920 been one Uh yeah, it all has to do with 378 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.200 coming down. It was a stupid discussion for two brothers, 379 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:47.599 one of them rather tipsy to be having in front 380 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:49.039 of a friend because they had this other buddy of 381 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:51.480 theirs with him. Not just the brothers, but they had 382 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:53.720 another buddy of theirs with them. 383 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:55.119 Uh. 384 00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:58.599 As they say, it's the even the most pleasant evening 385 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.400 per minute, and enough alcohol will turn sour. Old timers 386 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.799 have a name for it, the darker drink. The one 387 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.799 shot that puts the pall of death at a lively night, 388 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:10.440 turns fellowship into fifth bites Loosen's petty demons, duck and 389 00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:14.559 men's cross and says brother against brother, and that's what happened. 390 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:17.519 A couple of drunk guys get into a conversation and 391 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.240 I think he says, you're trying to make Mitch's problems 392 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:26.599 on my fault. Says Phil, don't blame me for things 393 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.960 I can't control, and we'll blame, as Barlber says, it 394 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.000 is only important to drunks and lawyers, and that's often 395 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:34.680 the same thing. 396 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.799 Now, now the search, we we just glossed over it 397 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:44.400 a little bit. The brothers again, if you could just 398 00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:48.039 explain this one thing. How does it that they're on 399 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.200 this big boat and he falls off, and how does 400 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:54.240 no one notice off this boat? 401 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:58.000