Speaker 1: What am I supposed to do for the next two days?
Speaker 1: I have to sit around not knowing how that ends. Yes,
Speaker 1: I know everybody in nineteen ninety six had to wait
Speaker 1: a week. I don't care. It's not nineteen ninety six anymore.
Speaker 1: I immediate gratification.
Speaker 2: Back in my day, we went uphill to school, both
Speaker 2: ways in the snow.
Speaker 3: We we are not good at understanding.
Speaker 2: More so, what doing.
Speaker 4: You having to wait?
Speaker 3: Jenny?
Speaker 1: Let me guess you're gonna wake up tomorrow morning and
Speaker 1: just watch it right because you can't wait like you
Speaker 1: did with Several Dreams, which he watched three times.
Speaker 5: I may have watched several Dreams three times in the
Speaker 5: lead up to SEB Dreams.
Speaker 4: I yah, that's all.
Speaker 3: I'm watching it right after this recording. Yes, I'm ahead
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 4: Let's just.
Speaker 6: The Babylon podcast was our last best hope for a
Speaker 6: concise discussion. It failed, but in the Year of the
Speaker 6: Great Tangents, it became something better, our last best hope
Speaker 6: for insight. The year is twenty twenty six. The place
Speaker 6: wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 4: Welcome back to your babel.
Speaker 5: I'm rear the podcast ASTRIANCEA crew that is watching BRICKI
Speaker 5: dyed episodes of Battlon five. We just watched World Without
Speaker 5: End part one and only part one. And I did
Speaker 5: not choose this. I allowed the consensus to choose. It
Speaker 5: is not my fault. Do not be mad at me.
Speaker 5: My name is Jenny, and I'm a big fan of
Speaker 5: the show and I've watched it through many times.
Speaker 7: I'm Jen I'm a big fan of the shows. While
Speaker 7: I watched it back in the day and it's and
Speaker 7: now I'm watching it again.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 3: My name's Andrew, and i watched the show two years
Speaker 3: ago and I'm absolutely delighted to be seeing this episode
Speaker 3: and all the reactions. Mmmmm.
Speaker 1: I'm Gus and I'm an actor and I've never watched
Speaker 1: the show before.
Speaker 2: And I'm Ali.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's all we need to know, nothing more.
Speaker 2: At all, after writer and.
Speaker 5: Johanna and yes you are you?
Speaker 8: Yes I am.
Speaker 1: I was driving doing the full you can. You can
Speaker 1: introduce yourself as thoroughly as you wish.
Speaker 3: My opinion cancer liber Rising Taorius Moon blood type.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Does anyone know their blood type?
Speaker 5: Like Koreans generally know their blood type because it's the personality.
Speaker 4: Then yeah, they always ask me.
Speaker 5: They always ask me, and I never know. Although these
Speaker 5: days they come away from blood type. Yeah, they moved
Speaker 5: away from blood type into Myers breaks.
Speaker 4: Anyway, let's get interesting thing though.
Speaker 2: Holy fuck, yeah.
Speaker 3: It's so, it's so weird. It was invented for a
Speaker 3: mom to vet her daughter's boyfriends.
Speaker 1: This is what happened. JMS now got a letter from
Speaker 1: Gus yeah or whoever, thirty years ago that said I
Speaker 1: want to see all of these things in an episode,
Speaker 1: and he went back in time and he made an
Speaker 1: episode with all of the things in it that I
Speaker 1: specifically wanted more of. Yes, and thanks for that.
Speaker 5: I would like you, if you have a chance, Gus,
Speaker 5: to go back and think of all of the times
Speaker 5: and you have just randomly just said what happened to
Speaker 5: Babylon four and Jane and I just went.
Speaker 4: Both of us prime actor.
Speaker 3: Like this show is such an amazing example of set
Speaker 3: up and execution and just callbacks and like proper laying
Speaker 3: of timeline. It's just so, it's such good writing.
Speaker 2: Very good yes, and really good laying of pipe.
Speaker 5: Yes, the pipe, the pipe is so. I yeah, I
Speaker 5: know all about pipe laying. That is my area of expertise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jenny specifically, yes, exactly as it all. You know
Speaker 1: what I want to do after I watch in a
Speaker 1: couple of days Part two. I want to go back
Speaker 1: and watch Bad One Squared again.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I figured you would.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's going to recontextualize a lot of stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Brittish, I was almost over.
Speaker 2: Yeah, until you can watch the next one.
Speaker 1: Now, I gotta wait til I watch part two. Oh
Speaker 1: really yeah, because because of this, this introduced a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff. It didn't close a lot of stuff.
Speaker 5: It's true. Yeah, you know, I I one of the
Speaker 5: things I like, and I never thought about it until
Speaker 5: actually watching this with you. But they have Jeff in
Speaker 5: the very very first scene, and I'm certain that is
Speaker 5: entirely because of people like you, Gus, who would have
Speaker 5: seen his name in the credits and been like so
Speaker 5: they had to have them in the court so that
Speaker 5: it wouldn't be spoiled for.
Speaker 7: People, and because you had to back then, you know,
Speaker 7: like there are you can get in streaming, You can
Speaker 7: get away with it a little bit more. There are
Speaker 7: sometimes reveals where they don't like they save somebody's name
Speaker 7: for a backup show, for back end of show. If
Speaker 7: it's someone that you you know, I mean they don't always,
Speaker 7: but but there are union rules that say, like if
Speaker 7: this character they have to be listed at the top
Speaker 7: show and then yeah, it just spoils the whole thing.
Speaker 2: I don't think they really do they do that anymore.
Speaker 1: I don't probably, you know.
Speaker 7: I mean there's still union rules about it, but you
Speaker 7: can get around them again, Like you can get them
Speaker 7: around them a little easier on streaming because you can
Speaker 7: make a case for it.
Speaker 3: I would love it to like in a show where
Speaker 3: that revealed like an actor and it was like a
Speaker 3: surprise on the plot when they like walked out of
Speaker 3: the shadows. It would just have their title card underneath,
Speaker 3: like and Christopher Palmers. Interesting, yes, sorry, that was in
Speaker 3: my head. And then Christopher Floorer popped in for the
Speaker 3: last thirty seconds, right.
Speaker 5: I thought it was because he was hot, and I
Speaker 5: was like, okay, I can see it.
Speaker 4: Exactly.
Speaker 1: This. This was so good. Yeah, it was just really good.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's basically just it.
Speaker 5: Actually, I was going to say basically just one plot line.
Speaker 5: In the Lurker's Guide, he literally says there's basically no
Speaker 5: b plot in this episode because we just have the
Speaker 5: one thing happening.
Speaker 1: And the B plot. The B plot is we got
Speaker 1: Garibaldi out of the way. Yeah, I guess, but it
Speaker 1: ties directly in.
Speaker 7: I mean, but I would I would call that B
Speaker 7: plot as well, the whole Garabaldi like being being, you know,
Speaker 7: feeling like as soon as they sent him off, I
Speaker 7: was like, oh, yeah, I remember why I started getting
Speaker 7: sad at the beginning of that. I was like, don't project,
Speaker 7: don't project, but okay, but but the Garibaldi thing is
Speaker 7: what I would definitely call it a B plot.
Speaker 5: Okay, Now, I'm I'm not going to ask you, Jen
Speaker 5: because you probably remembered, but what are you Guys have
Speaker 5: theories about why uh he's Garibaldi's.
Speaker 4: Not allowed to be there, like why Jeff didn't want
Speaker 4: him there?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because because of the fucking this is what I
Speaker 1: was born for. Babylon five. Blown. They showed it, didn't they.
Speaker 4: Okay, I mean that, why would they showed that before? Okay?
Speaker 4: But what do you mean?
Speaker 2: Okay they showed on the episode they showed it this episode?
Speaker 4: Yeah they did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, he didn't want him to die.
Speaker 1: He didn't want him to die. He didn't want him to.
Speaker 2: Is there more? No?
Speaker 1: No, don't do that? Know what the fuck come on,
Speaker 1: like what obvious blinding, blinding fucking Talia ivanav sex scene?
Speaker 1: Thing are we missing?
Speaker 2: I just asked the question, Oh my, Jenny, replay the tapes,
Speaker 2: replay the tapes. So well wait, what did Okay, Gus,
Speaker 2: you have a memory? Uh what did Where did Garibaldi
Speaker 2: say in that dream that Bruce had Bruce?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the man, the man in between is waiting for you,
Speaker 1: also fastening zip.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be that's going to be Jeff.
Speaker 1: Well, we haven't suggested that it was either Jeff or
Speaker 1: General the Hague was the man in He's dead now
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Okay, so he does he went and
Speaker 1: did but deep Space nine and JS shot.
Speaker 4: Him Jeff.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's come on, don't do that between.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 9: But what.
Speaker 1: Uh he wasn't if Jeff is going to stay on
Speaker 1: Babylon because he would have stayed on Babylon four with Jeff.
Speaker 1: I mean, Jeff said you would, you would come and
Speaker 1: you wouldn't come back either. And we know from Babylon
Speaker 1: Squared Mike wasn't on Babylon four because we would have
Speaker 1: seen him. Maybe he's part of it. So so therefore
Speaker 1: Mike couldn't.
Speaker 4: You guys are getting so stressed. Okay, this we want
Speaker 4: to no.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no no no no.
Speaker 1: No no you go.
Speaker 2: Hey, guys, here's a layup.
Speaker 1: What do you think about this? And apparently I just
Speaker 1: walked into a wall instead of returning your serve and
Speaker 1: you're okay, well, fucking idiot, all right moving no health
Speaker 1: health not?
Speaker 4: I said, oh.
Speaker 10: Okay, yeah, no yeah, could be that, yeah, all right,
Speaker 10: come on, he's just playing all.
Speaker 4: Right, all right, well then let's let's try something else.
Speaker 4: Then we've got okay, so what do you want to
Speaker 4: talk about it? You feel really bad? What?
Speaker 1: What could I possibly be missing? Are we talking in world? Right?
Speaker 1: We're talking in world?
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, I can't tell you anything?
Speaker 2: What you what I was?
Speaker 7: You're just thinking no, no, no no. Gus's point, and
Speaker 7: this is fair. I think, okay, I think, I think. Yeah,
Speaker 7: you're you're right, guys. It's it's all pretty well laid
Speaker 7: out there of what not pipe pipe, It's all pretty
Speaker 7: well laid out of like I love you too much.
Speaker 7: You are my best friend. I can't have you come
Speaker 7: back because you will also be destroyed here, and so
Speaker 7: I'm protecting you by not telling you. I'm here knowing
Speaker 7: who you are, that you would come after me.
Speaker 1: That was my read. I'm sure maybe there's something else
Speaker 1: going on, but he's he's handing me a really really
Speaker 1: juicy candy apple with all of that, and he's like, look,
Speaker 1: here is a very obvious explanation that makes explicit sense.
Speaker 1: So if he's going to come around the bend with
Speaker 1: a fucking pumpkin pie, then I'm not going to expect
Speaker 1: the pumpkin pie because he handed me a candy, I'll
Speaker 1: welcome the pumpkin pie. So Halloween theme, there you go,
Speaker 1: they are there you go. We're getting closer.
Speaker 2: Unless I mean, okay, so Marcus says this, Well, Marcus
Speaker 2: did look at him funny. In that one shot he did,
Speaker 2: what do you say to de Lenne?
Speaker 1: Jeff?
Speaker 2: Yeah, what did he say?
Speaker 1: He said, because.
Speaker 2: Marcus said that you won't get a straight answer from
Speaker 2: someone they spoke from from the one you have to
Speaker 2: like getting a mirror and look upside down. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: It showed his introduction to Membari linguistics and then immediately
Speaker 3: gave up after two sentences.
Speaker 2: Well, because my issue was my issue was the way
Speaker 2: the things played out. My issue with the way that
Speaker 2: things played out is I was like, well, what if
Speaker 2: Garibaldi's supposed to be there? Like you you're not supposed to.
Speaker 2: Like they were very specific this whole time about like Zathras,
Speaker 2: you can't say anything to me that's going to alter
Speaker 2: the past, like oh, and they did had that beat
Speaker 2: another moment with someone else, was it Lindy like somebody else?
Speaker 2: There was like a past moment where it was like, oh,
Speaker 2: you can't know this, it's like the past, like it's
Speaker 2: the past the future. So so like information and making
Speaker 2: sure that things play out how they're supposed to has
Speaker 2: been kind of this whole thing in the episode. And
Speaker 2: the thing that really bothered me was I was like,
Speaker 2: but then Jeff turns around and is like, I'm going
Speaker 2: to prevent Garibaldi from being in this area where he
Speaker 2: might need to be.
Speaker 1: The Garibaldi thing was a vision on the station, though
Speaker 1: it wasn't as far as we know, it wasn't because
Speaker 1: it's it's to my view, the Garibaldi vision was a
Speaker 1: similar vision to the Ivanova on exploding Babylon five vision,
Speaker 1: which is a potential future versus whatever Jeff got in
Speaker 1: the letter, which was like here's the shit you have to.
Speaker 2: You have to do well. But so my thought pro
Speaker 2: but it did. It did stick out to me as
Speaker 2: something where I was like, Okay, but what if that
Speaker 2: is something that's I get that it's a vision of
Speaker 2: a potential future, but I was like, what if that
Speaker 2: is a necessary part of the potential future that Garibaldi
Speaker 2: is there and now we're fucking with that by trying
Speaker 2: to alter things. But then I was like, but then
Speaker 2: if we're in this forty chess world that appears to
Speaker 2: be Jeff's brain, right, we know Garibaldi and we know
Speaker 2: he's not somebody who's going to like allow his friends
Speaker 2: to like go into danger without him. Is Garibaldi going
Speaker 2: to disregard this? And that's like a part of the
Speaker 2: forty chess m.
Speaker 4: That's a very interesting question.
Speaker 2: Like Jeff knows Garibaldi better than almost anybody.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were, so is Jeff.
Speaker 2: Is this part of Jeff's larger plan where it's like, ah, yes,
Speaker 2: my chess piece, But why do we have to sword.
Speaker 1: Just just in case we need it?
Speaker 2: Is the case we need?
Speaker 4: This is South Korea. I'm safe, It's okay.
Speaker 1: I know I would never actually threaten you with the sword.
Speaker 1: This is just my.
Speaker 2: Sword makes you feel a pit and a sword and
Speaker 2: a security count.
Speaker 1: I will never use any of them.
Speaker 5: It's because I may guess, feel powerless in this moment,
Speaker 5: and so he needs to feel powerful.
Speaker 2: I need to touch his sword. Oh God, problem, that
Speaker 2: was an accident.
Speaker 3: So so you're speaking with four dimensional chests, but you
Speaker 3: need to be thinking five.
Speaker 2: There are there are allegedly five dimensions now or whatever.
Speaker 4: But so.
Speaker 2: So I was just like, yeah, what if that's part
Speaker 2: of the plan. What if there is a a piece
Speaker 2: of the board that we're not seeing the Jeff is sick.
Speaker 2: I mean, we don't know what was in that letter
Speaker 2: of instructions to Jeff right, and it just feels weird
Speaker 2: that he would risk this all going to ship. I mean,
Speaker 2: I get it, like I'd want to save my friends too,
Speaker 2: but there's a certain extent to which it's like he's
Speaker 2: also brought all of his other friends into nuclear blast zone,
Speaker 2: so you know, I don't know what you're going for.
Speaker 2: It just struck me as funny. It did strike me
Speaker 2: as funny like that that we have this whole emphasis
Speaker 2: on not interfering with the past, and then we have
Speaker 2: the guy who explicitly says, don't say anything that's going
Speaker 2: to alter the past, going out of his way to
Speaker 2: potentially alters not the past or the future or whatever.
Speaker 2: It's both.
Speaker 1: They are actively trying to alter the future.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, but like they have this whole
Speaker 2: thing well no, because it already happened, Like they're altering
Speaker 2: the future, but that it already happened, but not that part,
Speaker 2: which part the mic stuff. Yeah, that's why it stood
Speaker 2: out to me is odd.
Speaker 1: But the mic stuff falls into the same category as
Speaker 1: Babylon five blowing up.
Speaker 2: I understand, but I was also like.
Speaker 1: Youtably without Bruce, I just realized, I.
Speaker 2: Understand, but I was also like, but does it fall
Speaker 2: into the same category. I mean, one was a vision
Speaker 2: and one was like a radio broadcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Also in the radio broadcast of of us as the
Speaker 7: captain is dead.
Speaker 1: She did say the captain is dead.
Speaker 2: She which one captain, That's what I thought. But then
Speaker 2: I was also like, well, technically he's an admiral, right,
Speaker 2: he's an admiral at the semester ambassador, so she would
Speaker 2: have maybe said the ambassador was dead. But I was like,
Speaker 2: but she's also under a lot of stress and she
Speaker 2: knew him as the captain, so like.
Speaker 1: No, Jeff was the commander.
Speaker 4: He was that true, he was commander.
Speaker 7: When he was they could presume him dead because he's missing.
Speaker 3: Is definitely dead because he was in the background, underneath
Speaker 3: the girl.
Speaker 4: He was under a pile.
Speaker 1: Communications Twink.
Speaker 3: Twink is the future. He's a great hair, but like
Speaker 3: he was just underneath, just like cor whin.
Speaker 1: We hardly knew ye.
Speaker 2: I passed two teenagers the other day, and I overheard
Speaker 2: the funniest conversation. You know what you just say overhear
Speaker 2: yourself with a conversation. You're like, this is hilarious. They're
Speaker 2: just one of the those. I mean, if I have to,
Speaker 2: I hope that I'm at least cute.
Speaker 1: Communications twig sure was.
Speaker 2: I was craggy. It both reminds me of communications the other.
Speaker 1: Okay, so so so we got all that, but also
Speaker 1: we got.
Speaker 4: Everything else, everything else going on.
Speaker 1: Zat is not supposed to mention one or the.
Speaker 4: One and the one or the one or anything.
Speaker 1: Did immediately the second he walked on board the.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, so you had one job.
Speaker 4: He's good at doings, he's not good at understandings.
Speaker 2: No, I fucking love Zathrust, one of my favorite characters all.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this does suggest to me we will not be
Speaker 1: seeing him again after next episode. But then again, I
Speaker 1: guess we'll find out why she did the head tilt.
Speaker 1: I knew she was gonna do.
Speaker 5: They just keep my head completely still.
Speaker 2: It's crazy that you're getting tells from a cartoon.
Speaker 1: I am usually wrong with the tells because I also
Speaker 1: thought Night one was comming back. Night one has not
Speaker 1: come back.
Speaker 4: We did a secret in his head tilt with the
Speaker 4: Night one.
Speaker 1: Yeah that was the je episode.
Speaker 4: Yeah that guy, Yeah, that guy.
Speaker 2: Well, that doesn't mean he won't.
Speaker 1: That's true anyway.
Speaker 5: Okay, other interesting things that happened in this episode though,
Speaker 5: everything Londo.
Speaker 4: And Emperor Londo Centauri on fire.
Speaker 1: And old ass Londo, old ass Bruce Londo put curtains
Speaker 1: around the throne. Yeah, presumably so he doesn't have to blinders,
Speaker 1: so he doesn't have to look at the actions that
Speaker 1: he's already taken that have caused things good visual metaphor
Speaker 1: set team and also probably JMS.
Speaker 5: Also probably very practical, so you don't have to you know,
Speaker 5: animate all of it the entire time.
Speaker 1: Although I meant specifically that he the throne. He's coming
Speaker 1: up around the front of it.
Speaker 4: That's true.
Speaker 1: You could only look out the front old ass Londo
Speaker 1: with old ass Bruce. Bruce back from the abyss Londo,
Speaker 1: once again blaming everybody else for his own failings and
Speaker 1: problems because he's an asshole. Love him, though, I do.
Speaker 2: He's not the most self reflective person.
Speaker 1: Oh he's not at all self reflective, and he does
Speaker 1: have portraits of himself in that future appears to be
Speaker 1: one where Bruce fucks off for an extended period of time,
Speaker 1: but they still beat the Shadows. But then the Shadows
Speaker 1: go and fuck up Centauri prime what Jakars wish for.
Speaker 1: I find their bones into dust and kill them. And
Speaker 1: I hate the Centauri so much, and fuck the Centauri.
Speaker 1: The Centauri suck and I don't like them specifically. And
Speaker 1: then after that, I haven't really thought further.
Speaker 2: It looks like that happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess a little bit.
Speaker 2: Like I said, I was like, they're gonna fuck with them,
Speaker 2: and then karma is. But the Narns aren't gonna go.
Speaker 1: The Nerds aren't gonna Is that the takeaway we get.
Speaker 5: From the show.
Speaker 2: It wasn't the Narns that did it. It was a shadows themselves.
Speaker 1: But they wouldn't do that without them.
Speaker 2: I mean, your car made a wish.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but but Morden replied differently.
Speaker 2: It seems like it happened anyway.
Speaker 1: In that future.
Speaker 2: In that future, I'm just saying like I said, Like
Speaker 2: I said, I was like, I feel like it's gonna
Speaker 2: be careful. What jewish where you just might get it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, okay, listen, go ahead, anybody else.
Speaker 4: Have any questions.
Speaker 5: I'm trying to think other things that we saw. We
Speaker 5: saw a handhold between Brew and de Lenn that Jeff
Speaker 5: appeared to be smiling as.
Speaker 10: He's just just just just fucking palling, dragging this ship
Speaker 10: out as long as he possible.
Speaker 1: It's great, it's great.
Speaker 2: Honestly, Jeff is.
Speaker 1: Like, that's my ex right there, and also Delenn.
Speaker 2: So honestly alright, as a marriage that resulted from a
Speaker 2: slow burn, yeah, yeah, it's nice. A slow burn is nice. No,
Speaker 2: it's cute.
Speaker 1: It was really sweet. I mean, I appreciate that they
Speaker 1: did that because at least I still remember the Cherry
Speaker 1: Tomato episode, and I know that Jeff left, and so
Speaker 1: presumably many of the things from season one were building
Speaker 1: into directions where JMS had to pivot, and I assume
Speaker 1: that taste of it is one of those.
Speaker 2: Or they become everyone's favorite threttle and it's very progressive.
Speaker 4: Trying very important husbands, triangles.
Speaker 1: Man, it's the bar but not the trial was a
Speaker 1: long time.
Speaker 2: Which one is Bermuda? Is this Bermuda?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Okay, great in the ocean, that's true. This is something else?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's yeah, that's something else.
Speaker 1: This is Bermuda?
Speaker 7: Yeah, there there there is something. Can I read? Can
Speaker 7: I read something off of JMS weeks? Uh? This is
Speaker 7: a question he got. Will the relationship between this is
Speaker 7: what you're talking about. Will the relationship between Delenn and
Speaker 7: shared and cause problems with Sinclair and JMS as well?
Speaker 7: Remember that we never defined what those feelings were between
Speaker 7: Sinclair and Delenn, although you said that's a marriage ceremony,
Speaker 7: but okay, she had a great deal of respect and
Speaker 7: admiration for him, Yes, and she had a fair measure
Speaker 7: of faith in him as well. Question is what's the
Speaker 7: root of that. We'll learn some of that in the
Speaker 7: two parter as. For Sinclair, he was mainly involved with Sekai. Well.
Speaker 2: I can't forget that she stroked his cheek in the
Speaker 2: in the old like the episode that had the future
Speaker 2: f in Future Delenne.
Speaker 1: She's hand so we wouldn't see that she had hair.
Speaker 1: You're Jeff as good as you could, so I don't remember.
Speaker 5: She is very but she does do a lot of touching,
Speaker 5: like even yeah, just in general.
Speaker 2: Just saying, just saying she did strugg his cheek. But
Speaker 2: I it's true that they never really like to find anything,
Speaker 2: and like, I don't know, I feel like Jeff handled
Speaker 2: that real well, you.
Speaker 7: Know, to be delighted he did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1: He's not around, like he's not obviously Catherine got evaporated
Speaker 1: out of the plot, but you know, presumably he would
Speaker 1: he would have. Now, yeah, don't think I'm just say,
Speaker 1: who knows he's in a book, right, isn't it like
Speaker 1: a book?
Speaker 2: Ain been bringing back characters that we were like, that's
Speaker 2: so what off.
Speaker 10: Some characters, Dira. Certain characters may never come back, and
Speaker 10: that's that's also fair. But certain characters that were title
Speaker 10: card characters may never even come back. Warren Keffer.
Speaker 4: Anyway, we're going to let's see, we've got.
Speaker 5: Who are the other things that there's basically one thing
Speaker 5: happening in this episode.
Speaker 4: We've got the questions I can ask you.
Speaker 1: Because this is all build up. I mean, this episode
Speaker 1: was I was riveted the entire time, but it was
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of questions and things being
Speaker 1: reintroduced and not a lot being answered. That's fine. I mean,
Speaker 1: one question we could ask is who wrote the fucking letters?
Speaker 1: The handwriting looked different on both of them, so I
Speaker 1: think so presumably those letters were from two different people
Speaker 1: who write English scripts nine hundred years ago, because they
Speaker 1: weren't written in Minbari.
Speaker 4: But they knew who they were writing to.
Speaker 1: They knew who they were writing to, Jeffrey David Sinclair
Speaker 1: and Delenn. Yeah, and they put the middle name in
Speaker 1: there just in case there was another Jeffrey Sinclair.
Speaker 4: On Minbar at around Minbar.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and they said he how did he know?
Speaker 1: So it's some individual on Minbar nine hundred years ago.
Speaker 1: How long did Minbari live?
Speaker 7: I think four hundred years right, several hundred?
Speaker 5: No, not no, they live they are and eighty yeah,
Speaker 5: longer lived than humans, but not like an obscene like not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's only one named Minbari we know from a
Speaker 1: thousand years ago and that's Valen.
Speaker 4: Oh okay, I literally was in my brain going maroon linear.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just like I was going through all the
Speaker 5: named Minbari in my brain.
Speaker 1: Sorry, but we didn't name We didn't name drop Vylan
Speaker 1: at all this episode, so like, and we don't know
Speaker 1: shit about Valen other than that he's a big deal
Speaker 1: and they name drop him whenever they can, but not
Speaker 1: this episode.
Speaker 5: Oh I I just remember something I could ask you.
Speaker 5: But okay, Oh no, literally has nothing to do with
Speaker 5: what you said.
Speaker 4: I just sorry. That's kind of rude because I was
Speaker 4: listening to what you were saying.
Speaker 1: But don't you You're fine. The other option is that
Speaker 1: if Jeff is going, he's had close the circle.
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's He's the that's see. That's why I think.
Speaker 5: That's why I was thinking the other Vorlon, the other options. Sorry,
Speaker 5: he said he's the closed circle.
Speaker 1: So the other option is Jeff wrote the letter to
Speaker 1: himself in the past.
Speaker 2: That's what I was thinking. That might make more sense too,
Speaker 2: if it's two different people. The line could have written.
Speaker 1: Her letter, but she doesn't. There's no way we're getting
Speaker 1: rid of de lenn. I just want to know and
Speaker 1: haven't kissed yet.
Speaker 2: What did Well, it's necessarily saying that we're getting rid of.
Speaker 7: What am I seeing the Game of Thrones? I don't know,
Speaker 7: I don't know, but I loved it.
Speaker 1: She's nervous about something. She's turning pink again for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's turning pink. So we're close to I'm gonna say names.
Speaker 1: Valen got pink. Pink, She's pink, okay, So something to
Speaker 1: do with it?
Speaker 4: Think if you say.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, hey cheese pizza. Say chuck
Speaker 7: you cheese. I'm gonna go past.
Speaker 4: Hey, cheese pizza, pizza.
Speaker 1: So it's probably either Valen or Jeff. I'm Jeff, but
Speaker 1: we didn't mention. But valin Valen matters because we're going
Speaker 1: into that time period, the Valen time period.
Speaker 2: We're going into the Valentine Valen was the Shadow War, right.
Speaker 4: I mean, we know Valen was about a thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: I don't about a thousand years ago, And we keep
Speaker 1: making jokes about Jaquan and Valen fighting the shadows Je.
Speaker 1: That would be fucking crazy. Wait, he might be what
Speaker 1: if because he's he is men Bari but not of
Speaker 1: them in Bari?
Speaker 5: Right, what is the phrasing Benbari of not Ben Bari. Sorry,
Speaker 5: I'm mixing it up with Wheel of Time again.
Speaker 2: Souls get souls get recycled. Like we've got jumping into
Speaker 2: the past. We've also got we've got Babylon for showing
Speaker 2: up just as it was needed, and we have souls
Speaker 2: getting recycled. So like, there are like four different ways
Speaker 2: he could be valent.
Speaker 1: That's true. He could be valent. Are you saying he
Speaker 1: just went back in time and was like, oh I'm valent.
Speaker 4: That could work.
Speaker 3: It's like college, you reinvent yourself or or that was
Speaker 3: a past iteration.
Speaker 4: Like when I went to university, I was like, I'm
Speaker 4: going to be a hat persons changing.
Speaker 2: I feel that the subject. So back on the subject,
Speaker 2: two things could be potentially true. Right, there's two ways
Speaker 2: that Jeff could be Valen. Right, because he's being called
Speaker 2: the one and he wasn't supposed to be called the one.
Speaker 2: What does valen mean?
Speaker 1: We don't know.
Speaker 4: We don't know.
Speaker 5: We actually did look it up. You you looked at
Speaker 5: I remember you said something about valence.
Speaker 1: Something valence with the thing that bonds vans electrons.
Speaker 4: That's what it was, Okay, thank you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: that would work.
Speaker 1: So he could go back in time and meet his
Speaker 1: past self, or he could go back in time and
Speaker 1: just be like, call me.
Speaker 2: He could be Yeah, I think either thing is potentially possible.
Speaker 1: That would also make sense with why he specifically would
Speaker 1: be such a big deal when they scanned his soul,
Speaker 1: They're like, holy shit, guys, and that's.
Speaker 2: Why they like brought him on board and all of
Speaker 2: this ship. That would yeah, potentially because he basically it'd
Speaker 2: be like it'd be like if we found out that
Speaker 2: the Dalai Lama was reincarnated into an alien specie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know we've made that comparison before.
Speaker 4: Haven't we.
Speaker 2: M hmm, Yeah, But like we know that that's entirely possible.
Speaker 2: And they showed what their interest in him right away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what they ended the war over him. It's very
Speaker 1: they're all dead fucking silent.
Speaker 4: I'm listening.
Speaker 3: Opposite of the Dali Lama is called the Panchin Lama
Speaker 3: because I couldn't remember.
Speaker 1: There's an opposite and anti pope.
Speaker 3: Oh well, Basically, like in with the Dalai Lama, the
Speaker 3: Lamas have to find one another. So the Panchin Lama
Speaker 3: discovers who is the next DOLLI Lama, the next Doll
Speaker 3: discovers whose next Punch and Lama. But that's why the
Speaker 3: Chinese government kidnapped the Punch and Lama like thirty years ago.
Speaker 1: It's kind of right, yeah, weirdest thing. Listen, I think
Speaker 1: we're maybe we'll stick with that. We'll find out, Okay,
Speaker 1: I like it, very cool.
Speaker 7: We're not making you commit it to a white board
Speaker 7: or anything, so it's fine.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just feel like I just feel like that tracks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, a good track.
Speaker 2: I mean to put it out there.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, like if there is basically only one thing happened
Speaker 5: in this episode with a lot of things, I'm trying
Speaker 5: to think what else I could ask you about it?
Speaker 7: And because because we left in the middle, yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: that was the other question.
Speaker 4: Sorry, in the middle of that.
Speaker 5: That was why my brain went off into the thing
Speaker 5: the other Vorlin, and he thoughts about the other Vorlon.
Speaker 1: He's got a cool ass helmet. Uh, it looks like
Speaker 1: his his ship doesn't look like angel wings. His ship
Speaker 1: looks more like horns, so that's an interesting visual motif.
Speaker 1: His voice is huh, he had a red light had
Speaker 1: a red light different, it's different. He's purple. He's not green,
Speaker 1: He's purple. The drowsy strike.
Speaker 4: Again, drowsy all over the damp place.
Speaker 1: His light in his chest is a lot more clearly
Speaker 1: defined and distinct, and his voice is significantly less mysterious. Okay,
Speaker 1: Caution's voice had like the wail songs off, and that
Speaker 1: guy was just like, Hey, it's me Terry, how are
Speaker 1: we doing.
Speaker 4: Again?
Speaker 5: When he showed up, I burst out laughing because Ali,
Speaker 5: you called him cash two point oh, just instinctively you
Speaker 5: called him that.
Speaker 4: That's the fandom name for him.
Speaker 1: Character is for Current.
Speaker 4: Well, no, like when he shows up here, people are like, what, Like,
Speaker 4: it's just a regular.
Speaker 2: Thing of current.
Speaker 1: He's Current. That's a major character.
Speaker 4: That guy.
Speaker 1: That guy's gonna come back. That's ambassador. That's the new
Speaker 1: He's going to Babylon five.
Speaker 2: Cush Cush.
Speaker 1: I'm calling him great.
Speaker 4: Great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that guy was weird. He's close circle and Cush Cush,
Speaker 1: close circle Cush Yep, yep.
Speaker 2: Pretty cool dude, part of the Cush circle dank.
Speaker 1: We will see if he would be part of a
Speaker 1: nightmare blunt rotation or not.
Speaker 2: Or so far, so good. The vibes are pretty good.
Speaker 2: So far. You didn't like him.
Speaker 1: He seems fine, he seems like cash.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, God, all Barlunes are the same. Maybe
Speaker 2: that's so that's so spey a guy. What if what
Speaker 2: if it call out he talked, They knew Kosh died immediately.
Speaker 2: So maybe it's a little bit of a collective consciousness.
Speaker 3: What if it's like an ET thing where like ET
Speaker 3: goes back and everyone's like, why aren't you wearing clothes?
Speaker 3: It's like everyone's just like, oh yeah, what's up with
Speaker 3: Borla's like I hate my family.
Speaker 2: This is a random thought. I was just thinking about
Speaker 2: hive mind versus collective consciousness and the difference between those
Speaker 2: two things, because I was like, why is hive mind
Speaker 2: like a horror thing whereas a collective consciousness is like
Speaker 2: like an uplifting spiritual idea. And then it's like, well,
Speaker 2: the difference is that free will exists and collective consciousness
Speaker 2: and that's why it's not horrifying.
Speaker 4: See.
Speaker 5: I was actually going to go much more base than
Speaker 5: that and be like, a hive is bugs, so that's
Speaker 5: why that's worth that's true.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, but like you know what, like inherently
Speaker 2: freaks us out about that as a concept and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: it's the collective consciousness without the existence of free will.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was like, huh interesting anyway, Sorry that just like
Speaker 2: I have the noodle on that for like seven to
Speaker 2: ten business days.
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, bye to us.
Speaker 2: I'll get back to you. Get back to you on
Speaker 2: the noodling.
Speaker 5: Yes, I don't know that I have anything else specific
Speaker 5: to ask you or bring up from this episode, just
Speaker 5: because it does lead just directly into Yeah.
Speaker 1: I hate to leave this at thirty ish minutes, but
Speaker 1: that good good, real good, good good, real good, good,
Speaker 1: very good.
Speaker 2: My favorite episode so far.
Speaker 1: This is a banger. We'll see how if he lands
Speaker 1: the flying Chicken.
Speaker 4: If he lands the Flying Chicken, what kind of.
Speaker 3: Hair product you think, Marcus uses?
Speaker 1: I'm sure you have an answer.
Speaker 2: I feel like he's one of these annoying people that
Speaker 2: rolls out of bed and just that looks like that.
Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about hair products. You might
Speaker 1: imagine also.
Speaker 7: Hair quite different.
Speaker 5: I could see him, I could see him a nineties
Speaker 5: herbal Essences commercial, because that feels about right.
Speaker 2: It feels like you've got my skin. Well it's very light,
Speaker 2: it's very light, so it feels like it's got to
Speaker 2: be a moose.
Speaker 7: I was gonna say, moose. That's the first thing.
Speaker 2: You's got to be a moose. It's got to be
Speaker 2: a moose.
Speaker 7: It looks so light like using moose in his hair,
Speaker 7: but I don't even.
Speaker 2: Know, like I mean, it feels like it feels like
Speaker 2: he's got a blow dry, no like that, with that hair.
Speaker 1: He's got you know those fucking salon chairs with the thing,
Speaker 1: he's got one of those in his quarters.
Speaker 3: He actually you just took. He just took.
Speaker 7: Helmet was left over at the Endea.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a perfect level of humidity for con.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was hilarious and weird that the warp reactor
Speaker 1: thing blew up and all it did was pinpoint attack
Speaker 1: Bruce's badge. That was weird. It was funny. It makes
Speaker 1: sense from a plot perspective. It does kind of seem targeted.
Speaker 7: Well, he was on the end of the ship, but.
Speaker 1: It didn't damage anything else. It came through.
Speaker 2: The Difference also said though that he was like, he
Speaker 2: was like, I'm not allowed to tell you anything about Bruce,
Speaker 2: which makes yeh. So he's got some some and then
Speaker 2: we get some tiny wimy ship with Bruce and I'm like.
Speaker 1: Hanging out with old ass Lon Centori has has a
Speaker 1: veer already been emperor at that point, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I didn't see him. So it suggests that maybe we
Speaker 1: do the sneaky okie dokee bullshit thing. Beer becomes emperor
Speaker 1: first and then Londo pulls a brutus on him too.
Speaker 2: That the more dramatically interesting timeline it is.
Speaker 1: It is because the the the obvious answer, as you've
Speaker 1: pointed out before, Londa becomes emperor makes her his successor Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the safe and obvious.
Speaker 2: But somehow Vier became emperor for.
Speaker 1: Bad news for Vere Peiti.
Speaker 7: What are you doing here?
Speaker 1: Ver?
Speaker 7: Linear Beer and linear Ver and linear n vin Vier.
Speaker 2: He doesn't make me feel good. It doesn't make me
Speaker 2: feel good about Vier. And yeah, I feel like.
Speaker 7: Piti Zanier is a much better partner for Vier than
Speaker 7: that Nazi.
Speaker 2: That was the last thing they said. They said that
Speaker 2: what was the third thing Londa needed to not do?
Speaker 1: Surrender to the thing that you fear most, knowing that
Speaker 1: it will destroy you, which I again I think is
Speaker 1: accepting life without a legacy, or or a bad one,
Speaker 1: forgetful being forgotten, or a bad legacy because he's most
Speaker 1: concerned with either how he looks or glory of the
Speaker 1: Centaury Republic. It's one of the other. But we'll let
Speaker 1: you guys talk because again, there's not a lot going on,
Speaker 1: and it's three in the morning, and.
Speaker 7: We can't and you can't and we can't say much.
Speaker 7: I mean, we can't say much.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 2: Good, good, good, good good love you guys have fun.
Speaker 11: Ah, my friends, you have reached the most dangerous part
Speaker 11: of our journey, the Gray Council. Here we speak of
Speaker 11: things that must not be spoken, secrets, betrayals, spoilers. If
Speaker 11: you are not ready, turned back now that if you
Speaker 11: dare to proceed, I promise you it will.
Speaker 9: Benificent, mister Geibaldi, the close I think, didn't they.
Speaker 4: Got more than close? He shows up and says, Hi,
Speaker 4: I'm Valin. That's literally what happens.
Speaker 3: I know literally when Ali said that, I think we
Speaker 3: all were just like.
Speaker 7: We were, like me, my nails, I'm gonna look like
Speaker 7: something else.
Speaker 3: Yeah, reinvent yourself at college like I have myself Dallas.
Speaker 3: For the first week, like I legit.
Speaker 5: Did try to become a hat person. But I couldn't
Speaker 5: keep it up because I only had the one hat.
Speaker 3: I think it would be more alarming if you had
Speaker 3: many different hats immediately on the first week, right, No,
Speaker 3: but I wanted to.
Speaker 4: Be like, I have a different hat, like it's just anyway,
Speaker 4: yeats are cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 4: But no, they fully nailed that.
Speaker 5: He just although they're not one short. So I think
Speaker 5: Ali is I think Ali's really sure.
Speaker 7: You know, I don't know. I mean personal we're dealing
Speaker 7: with Ali and Gus, who happened to be particularly excellent
Speaker 7: at sessing out, like you know, they they do this
Speaker 7: well and it's what they do. But I also, you know,
Speaker 7: I think that JMS left a lot more crumbs than
Speaker 7: maybe we give him not given credit for. I mean,
Speaker 7: I think he left crumbs, and I think he left
Speaker 7: crumbs knowing that at the time when we were watching
Speaker 7: it spread out over time, they wouldn't be as obvious
Speaker 7: and easy to pick up. And also because he wasn't
Speaker 7: you know, he gives heat drops clues all the time,
Speaker 7: even when the GMS speaks, and he's not like Robert Jordan,
Speaker 7: who's like, oh you all figured this out. I'm literally
Speaker 7: going to change my storyline because I don't want you
Speaker 7: to know it. He's like, cool, you figured it out.
Speaker 7: That's exactly right, Like he's not going to change where
Speaker 7: he started, I mean unless obviously for casting reasons he
Speaker 7: has exactly so I feel like it's there. I don't.
Speaker 7: I'm not trying to discount them coming to that, but
Speaker 7: I think that there are a lot of signs important
Speaker 7: to lead us to that place.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 5: I will also point out one of the ones Ali
Speaker 5: pointed out, and that they did start circling around it
Speaker 5: at the beginning, but Ali was joking about it at
Speaker 5: the beginning, is like, why is the handwriting like this,
Speaker 5: Like it's it's Jeff. Jeff wrote the note, and so
Speaker 5: it's Jeff's handwriting, and it's I think it's Jeff's handwriting
Speaker 5: to both him and Delenne. So I don't know why
Speaker 5: they think it's different handwriting it. It looks the same
Speaker 5: to me.
Speaker 7: It looked mostly you know what was different about it?
Speaker 7: I think it was that it felt like Jeffrey David
Speaker 7: Sinclair was like like scratched over three times in pen,
Speaker 7: like it looked wider and then de Lenz like the
Speaker 7: letters D E, L E and and were spread out
Speaker 7: more to fill the page as an artistic choice for
Speaker 7: like being on camera rather than trying to crunch them
Speaker 7: all in. I think that's the only thing that looks
Speaker 7: different about it. And then they look thinner. The letters
Speaker 7: look a little bit thinner, so that's yeah. I can
Speaker 7: see why they would be like, oh, they might not
Speaker 7: be the same handwriting, but I think if they look
Speaker 7: at it carefully, they're clearly Jeff's bad man scrowl.
Speaker 2: That's all it is.
Speaker 4: It's just his handwriting.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I took a bunch of notes while they were
Speaker 5: talking because it was making me laugh when they were like, Oh,
Speaker 5: they haven't kissed yet.
Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure. Correct me if I'm wrong. They kiss
Speaker 4: in this episode.
Speaker 5: I think they kiss the next episode, but it's future
Speaker 5: Delenne kissing Bruce, who is like Bruce has he's unstuck
Speaker 5: in time, so he slid into the consciousness of a
Speaker 5: future version of himself and so he's in a cell
Speaker 5: with Delenne, who's like his wife at this point in time,
Speaker 5: and kisses him because like, that's her husband, and that's
Speaker 5: I've heard that married people sometimes kissed, so.
Speaker 4: Yeah, me too. So they do kiss in this episode,
Speaker 4: which just made me laugh. Like they haven't kissed yet.
Speaker 5: I'm pretty sure they do later, but it's gonna be
Speaker 5: a whole thing where she realizes that it's Bruce from
Speaker 5: the past and then she starts telling him don't go
Speaker 5: to don't go to and you know he will go
Speaker 5: to Zahd's you can't not. But yeah, so that made
Speaker 5: me laugh.
Speaker 4: The Garibaldi thing, I it never occurred to me because
Speaker 4: even if you read.
Speaker 5: The the Lookers Guide, several people asked why why is
Speaker 5: Garabaldi not there, It never occurred to me that they
Speaker 5: would just think it was because of the battle, Like
Speaker 5: I see, it's.
Speaker 7: It's funny because yeah, in the Lurker's Guide he's just like, yeah,
Speaker 7: you'll find out in the next episode, and I'm like, no, Look,
Speaker 7: I mean I think we know that Jeff Valen is
Speaker 7: going to be like, if my my purview, my viewpoint
Speaker 7: has to be bigger than one person, and he would sacrifice,
Speaker 7: he would sacrifice Garibaldi if that had to happen for
Speaker 7: the future to turn out, right. So I think we
Speaker 7: know that about him. But I definitely think there's an
Speaker 7: element of this setup that really does feel like it's
Speaker 7: just playing as in, you're my best you're my best friend,
Speaker 7: I care about you, so much, I don't want you to,
Speaker 7: and then he straight up says it. He's like, if
Speaker 7: you would have come with me, you wouldn't have gotten
Speaker 7: off of it. You would not have gotten off of
Speaker 7: battle and battle, And for think.
Speaker 3: I think it's too promped. I think it is definitely
Speaker 3: you're my best friend. I want to save you, but
Speaker 3: also you're my best friend, and I know how you'll
Speaker 3: act because in the flashback, he's like, what was happening.
Speaker 3: It's like this, I set the reactor.
Speaker 1: This is happening.
Speaker 3: I'm He's like, he's like really excited to go out
Speaker 3: in a blaze of glory. I think that he's like
Speaker 3: Garribaldi is probably going to go out in a blaze
Speaker 3: of glory no matter what happens. Like if we bring him,
Speaker 3: he's either going to set off the reactor. He's going
Speaker 3: to sacrifice himself, like that's just who he is. Well,
Speaker 3: so I want to see him and also prevent the
Speaker 3: reactor from being set off prematurely, which results in the
Speaker 3: bad future. That you need to have him there because
Speaker 3: I think he's just like, oh, he's going to just
Speaker 3: do that, even if it's with the best intentions. Garibaldi
Speaker 3: is going to cause the reaction that leads to the
Speaker 3: bad future.
Speaker 5: Kis I Actually, I'm pretty sure guy could be wrong
Speaker 5: about this, but that flash forward is probably from this
Speaker 5: same timeline that Evanava is in, right, So it's that's
Speaker 5: a that's a flash forward that's happening on Babylon five.
Speaker 4: It's not happening on Babylon four.
Speaker 5: The reason, the actual, like literal physical reason that he
Speaker 5: doesn't want uh Garibaldi to be on Babylon four is
Speaker 5: something that we will see next episode. Jeff is going
Speaker 5: to age, just like he's going to become old. Ask
Speaker 5: Jeff because he's been through the Time Rift twice and
Speaker 5: he's the only one who has been through it twice.
Speaker 5: If Garibaldi came, he would be going through through a
Speaker 5: second time. And he's like, well, I'm willing to risk
Speaker 5: my own health and sacrifice some years of my life.
Speaker 5: I'm not willing to risk any of Garibaldi's. So that's like,
Speaker 5: it's it's that's why he just doesn't want Garibaldi to
Speaker 5: age another thirty years or whatever. So yeah, I was
Speaker 5: I thought maybe because Gus was such a big fan
Speaker 5: or big like, I don't know, he was a big
Speaker 5: proponent of old ash that he would make that connection,
Speaker 5: but he didn't.
Speaker 4: And but I literally didn't think it would be that
Speaker 4: confusing a question.
Speaker 7: So but I also I do think I think it
Speaker 7: is a little bit because it's to me, the reason
Speaker 7: is exactly the same. It is it is Jeff caring
Speaker 7: about his friend and not wanting his friend to either
Speaker 7: be sacrificed or go through the ages twice or whatever.
Speaker 7: And it's really just a there isn't I think where
Speaker 7: Gus was like, wait a minute, you're telling me there's
Speaker 7: something else is like suddenly they were like what's the
Speaker 7: plot point? And like rapa, Like you're saying, like, yes,
Speaker 7: part of it is Garibaldi will behave in a way
Speaker 7: that's probably going to make things more complicated, so let's
Speaker 7: just leave him out of the equation. But it isn't
Speaker 7: so much like if if Garibaldi is on this, then
Speaker 7: this won't happen, and that happens in this and this
Speaker 7: and this, Like I think that the way when when
Speaker 7: you ask them, Gus was like, wait a minute, there's
Speaker 7: more to it than just caring about your friend not
Speaker 7: going through a thing, right, And yeah, And so I mean,
Speaker 7: but I also don't know that they men necessarily would
Speaker 7: have made the leap of like going through it twice
Speaker 7: is going to double age you.
Speaker 5: But yeah, you know, I just I was thinking he
Speaker 5: might make a connection because right now Jeff looks the same.
Speaker 5: He hasn't aged, he hasn't becomeforable as Jeff. So I
Speaker 5: was wondering if they would make that connection, But they haven't.
Speaker 7: You know what.
Speaker 4: Together.
Speaker 7: The other reason I don't think they're going to make
Speaker 7: that connection is that there's like we know Jeff goes
Speaker 7: forward backward in time. We just saw Bruce in the
Speaker 7: future when he looks a little older, like I mean,
Speaker 7: he's now in his mind, but he's then in his body,
Speaker 7: and then we've seen old Jeff. But we know that
Speaker 7: Jeff goes back and forth. So I think like even
Speaker 7: the idea that maybe Jeff goes back on Babylon for
Speaker 7: to stop the Membari a thousand years ago, but then
Speaker 7: he lives there for fifty years before he comes back
Speaker 7: to be old Jeff.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean, like they could think that's true.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't think it's cool that it's like it's
Speaker 7: a time rift that's causing the aging. It's going to
Speaker 7: be just like he just went through. He went through
Speaker 7: fifty years. They can be an actual timeline. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: like Captain America coming back at the end of Endgame,
Speaker 7: which we all now have in ourz that guy. So like, oh,
Speaker 7: you can show up in the same timeline but be
Speaker 7: older than you were before because you went through the time.
Speaker 4: You know what I mean.
Speaker 7: I think that. I think it's not I don't think
Speaker 7: they're they're thinking about like what that, what that means,
Speaker 7: or how that could happen.
Speaker 4: Other notes that I have here.
Speaker 5: Ali is one hund right about every single wish that
Speaker 5: anybody makes to the genie comes true, every single one.
Speaker 5: Like if you said something off, his head gets cut
Speaker 5: off and put on a pike. That's that's Vera's wish.
Speaker 5: Everything Londo said to the point that even like Londo said,
Speaker 5: of what I wish is to be left alone, he
Speaker 5: is like he basically lives a very solitary life. But
Speaker 5: like and Jaikar's wishes all come true. Everybody's wish comes true.
Speaker 4: Ali's right on that do not do not talk to
Speaker 4: a genie is bad.
Speaker 3: Gosh, I'm so excited for the next episode. Are we
Speaker 3: to even reference the next episode.
Speaker 8: In this conversation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, when when we get to finally get the
Speaker 3: culmination of the vision that Londo had of Jacar his
Speaker 3: hands around my neck squeezing yes, and why that actually
Speaker 3: is is one of my favorite like, like this is
Speaker 3: this is why Babylon five is such a great show.
Speaker 3: It's because a thing presented completely as it is and
Speaker 3: then completely reincontect your lize like seasons later you're like oh,
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, it's actually beautiful in a weird way.
Speaker 5: I'm wondering if because we have been talking about this, Jenna,
Speaker 5: I've been talking about this for ages that Gus and
Speaker 5: Ali do not seem to remember that they've seen Jaikar
Speaker 5: missing an eye.
Speaker 4: If they've noticed it in the next episode, they'll.
Speaker 5: Be like oh, because they are so sure that they
Speaker 5: know what the eye they cannot see is, and they're
Speaker 5: like wrong, so wrong.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 3: I was tempted, but I didn't want to throw a
Speaker 3: We're so close to the big moments that I didn't
Speaker 3: want to throw any wrenches. I don't want to be
Speaker 3: like other characters in Babylon five. What do you think
Speaker 3: they're doing in this during this episode they haven't seen
Speaker 3: them like Jaikar, what do you think he's up to?
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's around okay.
Speaker 5: Other notes, I took something offhand remark that Gus said
Speaker 5: as a joke the Friendly Spider Man goes to Satari Prime.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes he does. That was a joke, he said,
Speaker 4: But he totally does and it's bad.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: Another note I took Ali was talking about like I
Speaker 5: can't the way I wrote it, what if it's a
Speaker 5: potential future and we're fucking with it? And like Isio
Speaker 5: what if she he thinks that he's doing something but
Speaker 5: he's trying to prevent the future that's supposed to happen
Speaker 5: with Garibaldi, like he's kind of overthinking it. And that
Speaker 5: reminded me of something that happens in the future where
Speaker 5: Bruce overthinks things and basically he I can't remember exactly
Speaker 5: what it is, but he is told not to do
Speaker 5: something I think in the next episode, and then later
Speaker 5: on he does, like I think he's told not to
Speaker 5: do something, and then later on he does it because
Speaker 5: he thinks, what if the thing happened because I listened
Speaker 5: and didn't do it right, And like he over he
Speaker 5: overthinks it, and it basically causes a problem. So that
Speaker 5: just reminded me of that. Like you try and fuck
Speaker 5: with time, it just becomes it gets confusing.
Speaker 3: There's a very funny comedy sketch I saw a while
Speaker 3: back where it was like a guy like comes back
Speaker 3: from the future to talk to his future. I just like, Hey,
Speaker 3: I need to send you a message in the future.
Speaker 3: You're doing fine, just keep up whatever you're doing. It
Speaker 3: actually results being great.
Speaker 8: And it's just like, why would you tell me that?
Speaker 3: Now I'm gonna second guess everything, like it's just what
Speaker 3: I'm supposed to be saying. Oh damn, I didn't think
Speaker 3: of that.
Speaker 4: Oh, I just wanted to tell you something terrible. It's terrible.
Speaker 3: Differently, I did well when I did.
Speaker 7: Teachers still have kids write that letter at the beginning
Speaker 7: of school year. What would you tell your eighth grade self?
Speaker 7: What would you tell you now that you're in eighth grade?
Speaker 7: What would you have told your sixth grade self? Like
Speaker 7: write that letter? And I'm like, no, you know.
Speaker 5: The only other note that I wrote down here, I
Speaker 5: think yeah, is Catherine, And Gus is right that Catherine
Speaker 5: is in.
Speaker 4: The book that basically is about Jeff's time on Minbar.
Speaker 5: I had thought initially that I was going to tell
Speaker 5: them about that. He seems to know about it.
Speaker 4: I don't know how. Maybe I mentioned it, but I
Speaker 4: don't think I did.
Speaker 5: I think, okay, a long time ago, but I don't
Speaker 5: necessarily want to bring up or tell them what happened
Speaker 5: with Catherine specifically in that book, because her name comes up,
Speaker 5: I think in season four, and it comes up as
Speaker 5: it like a throwaway line. I think Gary Baldi says
Speaker 5: it that Catherine has disappeared, and that is what happens
Speaker 5: in the book. Basically the book ends kind of with
Speaker 5: this Catherine has disappeared, and it is heavily implied, although
Speaker 5: it's never said that she disappeared in the rift and
Speaker 5: is back in time with Jeff and they literally happily
Speaker 5: ever after because she like went looking for him. I
Speaker 5: think I can't remember, it's been like a year since
Speaker 5: I read the book, but that's it's heavily implied that
Speaker 5: she went back in time and lived out her life
Speaker 5: with Jeff in the past.
Speaker 7: Well that's interesting because JMS says, did you read he wrote?
Speaker 7: In JMS speaks? Okay, so in JMA Speaks he says
Speaker 7: he's talking about As for Sinclair, this is what I
Speaker 7: read earlier. As for Sinclair, he was mainly involved with Sekai.
Speaker 7: The next thing he says is Sakai certainly wouldn't have
Speaker 7: wanted to get tied down to life on Minbar, and
Speaker 7: Sinclair knew that his life would be difficult now with
Speaker 7: the Rangers, so they parted ways like that's what he
Speaker 7: was saying here at this time and place, And then
Speaker 7: later that book got written and he was like, never mind,
Speaker 7: they can be together in the past.
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 5: I think the book has like he thinks of the
Speaker 5: book as canon, but I don't think it had been
Speaker 5: written at this point.
Speaker 7: So no, yeah exactly, I don't think so, And I
Speaker 7: don't think he really gave it that much thought. The
Speaker 7: other thing he said, oh go ahead, God.
Speaker 4: I would say, why would you have given it much thought?
Speaker 7: Like yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. At this point he
Speaker 7: was just like writing something off for her, And then
Speaker 7: probably JMS being JMS, was like, actually, especially, I'm sure
Speaker 7: the book probably wasn't written until we get into season four.
Speaker 7: I have and he's like, oh, let me figure it out, yeah,
Speaker 7: like where did she go? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, But
Speaker 7: then he's also talking, oh sorry, he just does this
Speaker 7: thing about Sheridan. Sheridan wasn't a backup for Sinclair. He
Speaker 7: was brought in specifically because I needed someone who could
Speaker 7: and would do things in a different way and had
Speaker 7: a different arc. If it was going to track one
Speaker 7: to one, you would need you wouldn't need a new character. Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is part of like what I was saying
Speaker 5: before about him, sort of heavily implying that this was
Speaker 5: always intentional, right, yeah, right, which it wasn't, but it feels,
Speaker 5: especially at the end of this episode, everything feels so
Speaker 5: fucking intentional, like yeah, yeah, but he also does.
Speaker 3: He's built in trap doors for all his characters exactly exactly.
Speaker 7: You're having the trap doors in there, and then you
Speaker 7: can still but you can still have you can still
Speaker 7: have the I mean, I talk about this all the time.
Speaker 7: This is such a mean thing to say, but we're
Speaker 7: talking about episode one earlier. And when episode one came out,
Speaker 7: I loved it, by the way, even though I fell
Speaker 7: asleep in that first one, I was like, it's amazing.
Speaker 7: And we went to dinner and people were bagging out
Speaker 7: and I was like, shut up, you're all wrong. And
Speaker 7: then later I was like, Okay, maybe, but somebody at
Speaker 7: the time described to me that they were like George
Speaker 7: Lucas was like a child drawing a circle. He started here,
Speaker 7: but when he got right all the way around, he didn't.
Speaker 7: He couldn't. Like, yeah, the on the you're like, you know,
Speaker 7: you're stuck with what you've got. You're like, shit, it
Speaker 7: doesn't it doesn't line up. And they use that analogy
Speaker 7: here because somebody says something about him, like the time thing,
Speaker 7: and was it all was it all figured out that
Speaker 7: he did know where, like how everything would loop back around?
Speaker 7: I can't find it. It's there's a lot in JMS speaking.
Speaker 4: And it's a huge one. It's a very huge one.
Speaker 7: So did you work out the circular sequence of events
Speaker 7: as you went or was it all mapped out beforehand? No,
Speaker 7: it all has to hang together or it's kind of useless.
Speaker 7: It just required working out the details of what was,
Speaker 7: is and will be. And then I walked on water.
Speaker 5: Yeah, basically a leap of faith whatever however you want
Speaker 5: to warn it. But like, it is amazing to be
Speaker 5: how well it works considering that he obviously, I mean,
Speaker 5: we know what his original plan was and this was
Speaker 5: not it Like every Babylon four was going to go
Speaker 5: to the future and Delenn and him We're going to
Speaker 5: have like a magic baby.
Speaker 4: And it was like, it's very very, very different story,
Speaker 4: and yet this is what we got, And I think
Speaker 4: what we got is better.
Speaker 5: I granted, I do have to remind myself that, you know,
Speaker 5: what I know of the original plan. I know of
Speaker 5: his point four notes, not as a story, right, so
Speaker 5: it's maybe if it was a story, it would be
Speaker 5: really good, but his point form notes. Looking at them,
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, what we got is so much better.
Speaker 4: So you know, I don't know.
Speaker 7: And them going to the future and having a baby,
Speaker 7: I mean, we know. JMS, you know, like me also
Speaker 7: writes the animation in comics, and there's i mean, the
Speaker 7: Days of Future Past storyline in X Men is from
Speaker 7: the early eighties. He was very familiar with that. I'm
Speaker 7: sure how could he not be at this time, I mean,
Speaker 7: he was writing Spider Man, he was writing in Marvel,
Speaker 7: so like, you know, it's not like he wasn't especially.
Speaker 3: Even like transferring consciousness versus like the actual entity entirely.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so I do think that there's yeah, exactly, So
Speaker 7: I just think that there's it doesn't surprise me, saying
Speaker 7: that he's not Robert Jordan, who's gonna be like, you
Speaker 7: figured it out, I'm changing it. He didn't, but he
Speaker 7: was like, oh wait, here's a better and more elegant
Speaker 7: way to tell the story. I'm still trying to tell.
Speaker 3: Writers do that because it's like, all of the isn't
Speaker 3: the point of the story. The story is the point.
Speaker 5: Yes, I mean I've said this before, but I feel
Speaker 5: like the world, like writers, a lot of writers learned
Speaker 5: the wrong lesson from Game of Thrones, which is like, oh,
Speaker 5: surprising everybody is the most important thing.
Speaker 4: It's like, right, No, that the reason that ned the
Speaker 4: spoilers for Game of Thrones.
Speaker 5: But the reason that worked is because it was inevitable,
Speaker 5: and all of us, because we've read so many stories,
Speaker 5: we were thinking, how are they going to under like
Speaker 5: make this a thing that is obvious and inevitable, Like
Speaker 5: it was shocking because every other story has done the opposite.
Speaker 4: But the story made.
Speaker 3: Sense and it was able to continue on because the story.
Speaker 5: Makes sense exactly. Just surprising me for the sake of
Speaker 5: surprising me just pisses me off.
Speaker 4: The story It makes sense, please, It's like.
Speaker 3: It's like jump scares. I've always thought jump scares are
Speaker 3: like the comedy equivalent of the stand up getting off
Speaker 3: a stage and tick you. It's just like you're getting
Speaker 3: a reaction. But like, I don't, I'm not thinking about
Speaker 3: the well crafted joke, right.
Speaker 4: Imagine a comedy show jumps off stage.
Speaker 7: I was in a show recently. I was sitting in
Speaker 7: the front row at a very small venue, which I
Speaker 7: just don't always recommend unless you really know who the
Speaker 7: headliners are. And uh, there was somebody who was very
Speaker 7: physical and sweaty and spitty. Oh let me just say,
Speaker 7: let me just say. It was the equivalent of someone
Speaker 7: jumping off, jumping off the stage and tickling me.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's no.
Speaker 7: I know who's I know who's in the set before
Speaker 7: you choose the front row.
Speaker 3: Yeah, those splash guards.
Speaker 5: Yeah, wow, oh my lord, Okay, other things that's going
Speaker 5: on in this episode, I don't, I don't know.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's just there's so much set up. There's
Speaker 7: so much set up. But like I mean, and not again,
Speaker 7: like we can spoil whatever we want here for sure,
Speaker 7: But it is like, you know, I mean, asking Ali
Speaker 7: and Gus to make make leaps. I mean, I you know,
Speaker 7: it's just fun to watch them squirm and have to
Speaker 7: wait two days to have to say and.
Speaker 4: It is only two days. Understand, I am not evil
Speaker 4: and it was not my choice. I did not in
Speaker 4: any way.
Speaker 5: Everybody in my discord server has been like breaking me
Speaker 5: over the coals for doing I know.
Speaker 7: I know, and I don't want to. I don't want to.
Speaker 7: I'm not gonna, okay, I'm not going to give them fodder,
Speaker 7: but I might give them a little bit of fodder.
Speaker 7: I do want to say that you were I mean,
Speaker 7: it is the middle of the night for you, so
Speaker 7: like doing a six hour a set tonight would have
Speaker 7: been really brutal a after you had a long week
Speaker 7: and B and then also you know, but Gus was like,
Speaker 7: are we going to do too? And you were like,
Speaker 7: if you want to.
Speaker 4: That's what I meant. I didn't think it was a
Speaker 4: text you were need tone to.
Speaker 3: Musical text.
Speaker 5: Yes, I just said if you want to. And then
Speaker 5: you said we could do one and one on Monday,
Speaker 5: and I said, don't go.
Speaker 4: I mean, okay, I might.
Speaker 7: I may have added the we could do one today
Speaker 7: and one on Monday, because I was like, oh, maybe
Speaker 7: they should suffer a little bit. I think I might
Speaker 7: have statistically put that in there.
Speaker 4: See everybody that's gen that's evil Jen, it was me.
Speaker 8: It was me in the generation. You know who to
Speaker 8: go after?
Speaker 7: That's right, that's right.
Speaker 3: Hmm, generation versus generation. I'm still I'm still workshopping.
Speaker 7: I had I had a pilot. I had a pilot.
Speaker 7: I had a pilot called uh uh, I can't know,
Speaker 7: I can't remember it, but it was. It was about
Speaker 7: a character named Jhen who's in between the generations. That's
Speaker 7: a good plan.
Speaker 4: Words.
Speaker 5: I was just gonna say, I thought we decided that
Speaker 5: fans of my channel were just called lesbians. If you
Speaker 5: watch my channel, you're a lesbian. That's just the congratulations,
Speaker 5: Yes exactly.
Speaker 4: I was about to say something really dirty and I'll
Speaker 4: just leave that one. So do you guys have any
Speaker 4: further final thoughts?
Speaker 3: Honestly, I'm just I mean, I'm just really excited to
Speaker 3: see the reaction of the next episode, Like when the
Speaker 3: with the Velin confirmation, with the reveal of like oh
Speaker 3: old Londo and old Jakar, like all, like there's there's
Speaker 3: so much full circle loveliness that is, like I forgot
Speaker 3: where this episode ended and I was at least hoping
Speaker 3: we got to like the choking and I was like, no.
Speaker 5: Time, it just ends like in the middle, because I
Speaker 5: think in the UK, this showed is like one episode
Speaker 5: because the UK they really like like the last two parter,
Speaker 5: it's the same, or it just sort of sponts it
Speaker 5: doesn't like end at a natural ending spot, because.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the British do love to do that with their
Speaker 3: sci fi and I it hurts, but I also love
Speaker 3: it because it does build anticipation.
Speaker 4: Yeah it does.
Speaker 7: I mean, and you know it is. It's not like
Speaker 7: a cliffhanger up ending. It's a what's next yea, or
Speaker 7: on the next let's take the first step into the
Speaker 7: next section. But the other thing is that this also
Speaker 7: feels like where we are in this series, like in
Speaker 7: the same the same way, because they're they're just showing
Speaker 7: us everything here and we have two and a half
Speaker 7: seasons left, like you know, or one seasons left. Sorry
Speaker 7: when I have seasons left, but they're they're showing is
Speaker 7: no two and a half, four and five? Yeah, I can't.
Speaker 7: I can math can math? I just became an honorary lesbian.
Speaker 5: Math because I'm a gay and we don't know except
Speaker 5: what I was about to do but right right there
Speaker 5: the exception to the rulan.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I guess that's true. That's true. Anyway, I was
Speaker 7: just going to say that, like they're showing us all
Speaker 7: the ending and yet the gift now is how do
Speaker 7: we get there?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 7: It's really fun, It's really it's cool.
Speaker 3: It's like it's almost like doing like a maze on
Speaker 3: the back of a cereal box. At least how I
Speaker 3: did them was I would start with the beginning and
Speaker 3: the end, and I'll try to work.
Speaker 7: Yes, interesting, I love that.
Speaker 4: Interesting, that's cool.
Speaker 7: That is cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know this is the writing on this show man.
Speaker 4: It's so good. This is this is peak. This is peak,
Speaker 4: like this is I can't.
Speaker 8: Okay JMS more like JM yes, oh.
Speaker 4: Wow, oh my god. Well yes, if you like this,
Speaker 4: you might want to see your reaction. It's up on YouTube.
Speaker 5: You could get the unedited version, which is up on
Speaker 5: Thank You, Thank You, patri. It is almost four am
Speaker 5: up on patreons and I get early access AD free
Speaker 5: version of the audio podcast.
Speaker 4: Access to a super secret channel and discord. It's super secret,
Speaker 4: so we don't tell anybody.
Speaker 7: Wrap up.
Speaker 4: You don't know about it.
Speaker 5: Don't tell anybody, Okay, do not be like Sathrisks, do
Speaker 5: not tell anyone.
Speaker 3: I'll be nice, nice and and quiet about it.
Speaker 5: Yeah it's fine, right yeah, yeah exactly.
Speaker 3: And also order to get in yet to see if
Speaker 3: you're say, if your team pouch your team tentacle.
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right, yes a march that reminded me.
Speaker 4: Thank you. The other thing was we got merch.
Speaker 5: You can check on the merch store and get like
Speaker 5: our big Tentacle energy shirt because you know it's important.
Speaker 11: Uh.
Speaker 4: I think that's it. So yeah, like a subscribed, great review,
Speaker 4: do all the stuff and we'll see you for
Speaker 2: Bye bye