WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.560 --> 00:00:13.560 Welcome to another episode of The Oath and the Office. 2 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:15.720 I am John Fiebel, saying it is a pleasure to 3 00:00:15.759 --> 00:00:17.920 be with you, and it's my pleasure to welcome the 4 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:20.839 star of this show, the man behind it all. They 5 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:24.199 call him the Mac Professor Corey Bretschneider, author of The 6 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:26.199 Oath and the Office. Hello, Corey, how's it going. 7 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:27.640 It's going great. 8 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:30.440 John, A really pleasure, of course to do this show 9 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.759 with you. And today is a special show. You know, 10 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:35.840 so often on The Oath in the Office, we're talking 11 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:39.039 not just about the destruction of our democracy by Donald Trump, 12 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:41.640 but how to fight back and how to pass laws 13 00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:44.799 that ensure that not only does it stop happening now, 14 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:48.000 but that it doesn't happen in the future. And I 15 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:50.880 can't really think of anybody more than Senator Ron Wyden 16 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:54.600 who's led the fight on Pfizer reform, the fight to 17 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:58.000 protect our First Amendment, to protect First Amendment rights to 18 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:01.479 free speech, to protect our four Amendment rights to not 19 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:05.239 be searched by unreasonable search and seizure. And so it's, 20 00:01:05.359 --> 00:01:07.920 you know, a really special episode. We'll talk in depth 21 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.280 about what's happening about the assault on democracy, and we'll 22 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:13.599 have this amazing interview with him about the hope for 23 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:14.159 the future. 24 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:16.760 What a great guest. Thank you so much, Professor. I 25 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:19.200 got to say, there's a lot to cover right now, 26 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:22.200 and it's been a bit crazy over here. But before 27 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.439 we even dive into what's going on with the malfeasans 28 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:28.640 in our government, you know, we hear this expression constitutional 29 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:32.079 crisis all the time, and you have cautioned against using 30 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:37.280 that phrase too loosely. How should conscientious, well intentioned, nerdy 31 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:41.680 citizens distinguish between politics they dislike and actions that might 32 00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:46.680 be legally dodgy and then actions that genuinely threaten constitutional democracy. 33 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.840 Where is the line where a constitutional challenge becomes a 34 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:51.000 constitutional crisis? 35 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:54.519 You know, in normal politics, laws are proposed or actions 36 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:57.280 are proposed that we argue, is this constitutional? Is that 37 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:02.040 not constitutional? Is abortion constitutional or not? Is it constitutionally 38 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:04.280 protected by the right to privacy? These are sort of 39 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.719 classic debates. But what we're facing in our democracy now 40 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:10.599 goes so far beyond that. It really is Donald Trump 41 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:14.080 shutting down the opposition. If you think about what free 42 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:17.039 speech is, the right to say what you think without 43 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.439 being charged with a crime, without being put in prison. 44 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.680 That's you know, more fundamental in some ways even than 45 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:26.479 the right to vote. Without it, we wouldn't have a democracy. 46 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:29.719 So when you have a president really attacking the fundamental 47 00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.840 rights of democracy, that's not politics as normal, that's not 48 00:02:32.879 --> 00:02:36.240 a debate about constitutional law. That is at minimum of 49 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:37.560 constitutional crisis. 50 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:38.319 I think that's an. 51 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:41.840 Optimistic way to put it, because constitutional crisis suggests that, 52 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:44.159 you know, there's some back and forth. I think, as 53 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:46.439 I've said often on this show, that we're in the 54 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:49.759 middle of an attempted self coup, and part of it 55 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:51.319 is the assault on free speech. 56 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:53.639 But it also is the use of so. 57 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:56.800 Many of the powers that have been handed over to 58 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.840 the executive branch in the hands of a want to 59 00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:00.560 be dictator. 60 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.719 It's so dangerous. So in the War on Terror, for instance. 61 00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:07.120 And before that, we've handed over enormous power to the 62 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.319 executive branch, to the president to fight the so called 63 00:03:10.360 --> 00:03:13.120 war on terror. Yeah, what happens when the war on 64 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:19.240 terror when those powers, including the power of surveillance, which includes, unfortunately, 65 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:21.680 and people will be shocked to hear this, the power 66 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:24.960 to really read the emails without a warrant of domestic 67 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:28.199 citizens if they're in conversation with those abroad if they've 68 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:30.840 been caught up in the dragnet that wasn't aimed at 69 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:33.360 getting them. There are all these situations in which the 70 00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:36.840 president has this power of surveillance, including over his enemies. 71 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:39.719 That's what really makes this so scary that an attack 72 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.680 on free speech, the use of these supposedly powers to 73 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:47.000 provide for security in order to shut down our democracy. 74 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:49.800 So we're way beyond politics as normal. I think we're 75 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:53.280 beyond constitutional crisis. We're fighting against an attempted coup by 76 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:53.879 a president. 77 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:56.240 Yeah, and we have to remember we get to thank 78 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:58.919 both parties for that, right, Corey, when it comes to 79 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:01.680 these visive uses. I mean, let me ask you about 80 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:06.680 the president subpoening New York Times reporters, because this story 81 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:10.400 has the founders screaming from their crypts. It involves federal 82 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:14.240 prosecutors subpoenaing reporters from the New York Times over a 83 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:18.839 national security story, rather than prosecuting an actual leak. Right, 84 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.600 these government officials are treating anonymous sources like they're the 85 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:26.639 biggest threat to national security, not corruption the people talking 86 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.399 about corruption. But they're going after the journalists, not the leakers. 87 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.240 This is another example of stochastic self censorship is a 88 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.680 dot of just trying to intimidate the president of silence. 89 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.120 You know, are they going to be able to get 90 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:40.720 a conviction on these journalists. 91 00:04:40.759 --> 00:04:42.839 Are they even going to bring an indictment. It's unclear. 92 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:45.279 But what they're doing, and we've talked about this often, 93 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:48.759 is they're trying to induce they meaning the administration. And 94 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:52.160 I'll call out in particular Jay Clayton, the US Attorney 95 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.240 for the Southern District of New York. So we're getting 96 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.480 we're getting about him, We're going to talk about him 97 00:04:57.519 --> 00:04:59.800 as as the nominee actually to be the Director of 98 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.839 National Intelligence. Totally frightening stuff. But what he's done is 99 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.240 he's taken this fundamental right in democracy, the right of 100 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.160 the press to tell us what's going on with this 101 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:16.000 corrupt regime. The receipt of this bribe plane and their 102 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:18.680 story in particular about how it doesn't have any of 103 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:21.319 the needed security that you did have on Air Force 104 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:23.639 one and that you would need in order to protect 105 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.480 the president. That's just a normal story in democracy that 106 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:31.040 we need to have access to. That's being This isn't 107 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.959 a national security concern. The national security concern is the President, 108 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:38.680 and yet who's being attacked by the Southern District of 109 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.920 New York. They're not investigating the president, They're investigating the reporters. 110 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:44.240 Yeah, so that really is an example. 111 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:49.720 Reporting a threat to this president's safety and this president 112 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:51.480 is sticking as dogs on them. 113 00:05:51.879 --> 00:05:52.040 Right. 114 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:55.160 That's where it gets really weird, right, I mean, one 115 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.319 of the positive side effects of all this awfulness is 116 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.040 that Donald Trump is forcing us all to have a 117 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:02.839 lot of civics lessons and remind ourselves why norms got 118 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:05.199 to be norms in the first place. Story, why have 119 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:10.399 administrations of both parties generally been hesitant to compel reporters 120 00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:14.040 to reveal sources. We have to explain again why this 121 00:06:14.120 --> 00:06:14.720 is messed up. 122 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:16.759 You know, it goes back to the First Amendment, and 123 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.160 the First Amendment is in trouble, and it guarantees two 124 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:21.240 specific rights that are both at issue here. 125 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:23.839 One is the right to free speech. And I'll say 126 00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:24.600 something about that. 127 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:26.399 A lot of times we think about free speech is 128 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:28.800 just the right to say what I feel or what 129 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:31.600 I think. But the right is the right of democracy. 130 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:35.879 It's the right to hear arguments, to see information, because 131 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.600 without access to that information, how are we supposed to 132 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:42.040 decide as democratic citizens what to do. We won't even 133 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:45.079 know what our government is doing. That kind of transparency 134 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.360 is so important. And the related First Amendment right that 135 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:51.279 is specifically in there of the right to the freedom 136 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:55.360 of the press, that also is so necessary to democracy. 137 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:58.519 Yeah, I mean, nothing says I support the First Amendment 138 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.199 like subpeeding the people who are using it. Right, Like 139 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.439 David mccrob the New York Times said that federal agents 140 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:09.519 showing up at reporters' homes should shock the conscience. Is 141 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:14.560 that flowery rhetoric or is this professor seriously an extraordinary 142 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:15.680 constitutional moment? 143 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:18.120 Well, I don't think it goes I mean I like 144 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.879 that phrase, but it doesn't even go far enough. Shocks 145 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.120 the conscience is something unusual. This is really a threat 146 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.199 to the entire system. And let's of course remember and 147 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:30.399 listeners to this show no because we're covering it so closely. 148 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:32.000 This isn't a one off. 149 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.040 It is part of an overall assault on democracy in 150 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:39.040 which Donald Trump has his minions the Department of Justice 151 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:40.759 go after those he. 152 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:42.879 Considers political opponents. 153 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:45.639 And so the attack on Letitia James, even if it 154 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:48.199 doesn't go anywhere, it makes people think, wow, you know, 155 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:50.680 maybe they won't get a conviction out of me. I 156 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.480 won't go to prison. But if you accuse me of 157 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:56.160 you know, mortgage fraud, you know, I'm gonna think twice 158 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:56.600 if you're. 159 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:57.240 Willing to do that. 160 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:00.240 Or how about James Comy eighty six forty seven, a 161 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.199 pure example of let's get rid of the president we 162 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:06.839 don't like. Now the guy is facing potentially criminal charges, 163 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:11.560 you know, that insistence on shutting down the opposition, you know. 164 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:15.360 And then if we go back to the historical and allegory, 165 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.480 the analogy of John Adams who did shut down the 166 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.160 opposition party, how do you do it? He went after 167 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:24.360 what he considered the press that was revealing things that 168 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:26.959 he was doing, like trying to his party, trying to 169 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:29.920 steal the election of eighteen hundred. Now we're seeing that again, 170 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:32.559 the bride plane, the reporting on this plane, which I 171 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:33.960 know we'll talk about more. 172 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:34.720 What is it? 173 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.879 It's just revealing the corruption that's part of this administration. 174 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:39.559 And what do you get for that? You get a 175 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.320 criminal subpoena. Now I should say, we don't know what 176 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:43.080 these are for. 177 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.840 It's just potentially some sort of criminal action, you know. 178 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:49.679 The vagueness of it is part of what's so scary. 179 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.279 So we don't know what the charges are. It's the 180 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.600 ging really trying to shut up his critics. 181 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:56.720 Yeah, and by the way, I don't know if you 182 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.000 knew this scory, but this is the anniversary this week. 183 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:02.960 It was on the fourteenth of July seventeen ninety eight 184 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:07.240 that President John Adams signed this Edition Act targeting false, 185 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:12.600 scandalous or malicious writing against the US Government. America tried 186 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.720 to do away with the First Amendment and pretended it 187 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:19.080 was about keeping people safe. So happy anniversary to while 188 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:21.480 out there who celebrate. But I mean, let me ask 189 00:09:21.480 --> 00:09:25.639 you about the founders. Because the Constitution never explicitly, you know, 190 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.799 creates the press as an institution. But the First Amendment 191 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:35.279 places freedom of the press alongside freedom of religion, alongside 192 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:38.799 freedom of speech. Why was that so important to the founders? 193 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:41.440 Well, you know, there really were two views at the 194 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:44.120 Founding and often we hide from the fact. You brought 195 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:46.000 up John Adams. I'm going to say something about him 196 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.000 before giving you a full answer. There were founders, and 197 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:52.240 John Adams was chief among them. Also the Supreme Court 198 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:55.840 of the Founding period, including in seventeen ninety eight justices 199 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:59.159 like Samuel Chase. What they believed was that we had 200 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.399 a kind of constant titutional monarchy in this society in 201 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:06.360 which the president couldn't be subject to criticism. That seems 202 00:10:06.360 --> 00:10:09.320 outrageous now, but they read the First Amendment, including the 203 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:11.639 right of free speech and the right to the freedom 204 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:14.200 of press is really not that different than the rules 205 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.120 and protections, which were some that we had in England, 206 00:10:17.120 --> 00:10:19.360 but they didn't include the right to criticize the king. 207 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:23.000 But what that Sedition Act crisis did that you're talking about. 208 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.799 The Sedition Act made it a crime to criticize the 209 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:27.200 president of the United States. 210 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:28.679 By the way, it wasn't. 211 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.240 A crime to criticize the vice president, who was Thomas 212 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.039 Jefferson of the opposition Party. 213 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:35.919 So what happened how that worked out? 214 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:36.759 Huh? 215 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.600 What happened in seventeen ninety eight was a battle over 216 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.759 the meaning of free speech. And thankfully the Jeffersonians and 217 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:46.919 Madison and the editors who were prosecuted use their. 218 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:49.080 Own trials to put John Adams on trial. 219 00:10:49.480 --> 00:10:52.200 And the result really was this legacy that we're talking 220 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:55.039 about now, that we have a right to dissent a 221 00:10:55.120 --> 00:10:58.399 right to criticize this president. But what Donald Trump and 222 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.919 Jay Clayton would do is bring back before seventeen ninety 223 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:05.879 eight to this authoritarian idea of the Constitution as some 224 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.840 sort of system of monarchy. And wow, that couldn't be 225 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:11.679 more dangerous for the very idea of democracy. By the way, 226 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.879 the first three words of the Constitution, I'll just remind everyone, 227 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:15.799 are we the people? 228 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:17.279 That's what it's supposed to be about. 229 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.159 And absolutely and you know the founders wrote freedom of 230 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:23.799 the press. They didn't add unless the president gets embarrassed. 231 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:26.840 Let's talk about Can we talk about the actual plane? 232 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:29.879 They call it air Force one, We call it Bribeforce one, 233 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.639 but the maintenance crew called it maybe let's not This 234 00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:38.480 story is again so strange. Reports indicate the Secret Service 235 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.320 advised Trump not to fly on the newer aircraft because 236 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:45.279 their defensive systems were incomplete. And you know, when it's 237 00:11:45.320 --> 00:11:47.240 the people whose job it is to take bullets for 238 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:51.679 you say hard pass listen, I guess. But imagine getting 239 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.639 a free luxury jet and finding out it's still somehow 240 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:59.519 the cheap option. Corey, doesn't this illustrate why independent professional 241 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:03.759 agency have to exist to tell presidents know, when safety 242 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.120 requires it. Right, we're talking about Trump at the Supreme 243 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.799 Court letting him do away with independent agencies. One of 244 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:11.159 those just saved us life. 245 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:15.799 We need civil servants, you know, in independent agencies also 246 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.759 within the executive branch itself, to tell the truth. And 247 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.039 that's why they traditionally have all sorts of protections to 248 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.600 allow for that. And yes, this president has done away 249 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.399 with so many of those protections. They've weakened the civil 250 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.679 service protection. We've essentially, through the recent case that we 251 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:36.159 talked about, overturning Humphrey's executive done away with independent agencies. 252 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.840 The degree to which they exist anymore is really almost nothing. 253 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.720 And you know, let's also just talk about the other 254 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.279 you know, dynamic in all of this, which is that 255 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:47.919 the Jay Clayton's of the world, the Donald Trump's, are 256 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.519 saying that this is a national security issue and the 257 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.679 freedom of the press, you know, is limited when it 258 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.879 comes to national security. No, it's an issue about a 259 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.039 bribe that was paid by a foreign government of violation 260 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:03.240 of the Luman's clause, and also a national security threat 261 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.159 that this bribe of you know, it turns out doesn't 262 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:08.840 turns out to be the best way to, you know, 263 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:12.879 create the plane that carries the president of the United States. 264 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:16.480 Those are essential stories for the press to be reporting on. 265 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.039 But what you always hear those who want to shut 266 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:22.039 down civil liberties say is the phrase national security. 267 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:22.919 National security. 268 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.360 We'll talk about that with Ron Wyden, the fives of 269 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.039 the law, the use of fear of security in order 270 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:30.519 to shut down our civil liberties. 271 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:32.759 That's what's going on here. But let's not lose sight 272 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:33.039 of it. 273 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.519 It's people of integrity who are reporting on the truth, 274 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.600 and the New York Times journalists who are facing, you know, 275 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:41.759 possible criminal charges for doing it. They're the ones defending 276 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:43.000 our democracy right now. 277 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:45.200 Well, let me ask you about Jay Clayton, because he 278 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:49.480 is heading into the Senate confirmation hearing after authorizing subpoenas 279 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:53.279 for the New York Times reporters over there reporting on 280 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.080 Air Force one security. I guess it's kind of awkward 281 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.600 right to explain your respect for press freedom while reporters 282 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:03.200 are also their inboxes for subpoenas from you. Should senators 283 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.840 view those subpoenas as a legitimate league investigation or is 284 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:10.080 this a First Amendment issue that goes directly to this 285 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:11.480 man's fitness for higher office. 286 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:13.919 Well, you know, I cannot wait to get into this, 287 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.200 Senator Widen. Yeah, and he's going to be the person 288 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.399 that is interrogating Jake Clayton about all of this. 289 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:23.159 And one thing I'll push him on. 290 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:26.200 Listeners can look for this is the question of whether 291 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.200 or not the fact that this person who is supposed to, 292 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:32.600 by the way, be the alternative to Bill Polti's clearly 293 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:37.000 not qualified to be the permanent director of National Intelligence. 294 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.480 This is supposed to be somebody who is confirmable. This 295 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.960 is the former head of the SEC, for instance. So 296 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:46.360 you know that was the assumption before. But you know, 297 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:48.639 one thing I guess he's trying to do this is 298 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.759 now just my surmise is kiss up to Donald Trump. Well, 299 00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:54.799 how do you do? You attack his opponents? You attack 300 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.679 the journalists who are doing their job. And to my mind, 301 00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:59.360 I mean, I'll just say it in a blunt way. 302 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:01.600 You know, I don't think this is a hard case 303 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:04.679 if you're subpoenating journalists, unless we're missing something in this 304 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:07.279 story and he has some knowledge that we don't know 305 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:09.840 about that's going to come out in the confirmation. If 306 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:13.919 you're helping Trump shut down free speed, shut down democracy 307 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.240 domestically as the US Attorney for the Southern District of 308 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.919 New York, an incredibly important part of our system, our 309 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.600 Department of Justice. This is the position that pre Berarra, 310 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.960 former guests on our show held, how can we trust 311 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.360 you to get the reins of power that come with 312 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:34.200 the Director of National Intelligence, including again the power to 313 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:38.200 engage in surveillance that might wind up looking into even 314 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:41.399 domestic US citizens. 315 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:43.519 Phone calls and emails. If we can't. 316 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.759 Trust you to protect our civil liberties as US attorney, 317 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:49.519 I don't see how we can expect you to do 318 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.360 that as the Director of National Intelligence. And so when 319 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.960 he comes before this confirmation, and assuming that it is scheduled, 320 00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.080 assuming that Trump doesn't withdraw it, I expect very tough 321 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:01.000 questions not just about what he would do as the 322 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:05.159 Director of National Intelligence, but about this specific case. 323 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.960 Well, yeah, because I mean, I don't know, there's no 324 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.600 federal shield law protecting reporters sources, right. 325 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:15.399 You know, there's supposed to be a First Amendment, And 326 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.279 this is another thing we'll talk that I'm going to 327 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.240 definitely talk to Center Widen about. But so often you 328 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:24.240 know that First Amendment has been weakened by this Supreme Court. 329 00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:27.559 And you know, there are really important precedents actually involving 330 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:31.679 the New York Times, for instance, as listeners know, in 331 00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:33.600 my book The Presidents and the People, I have one 332 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:35.639 of the last at length interviews. 333 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:36.200 With Daniel Elsberg. 334 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:39.240 Well, he is the source of one of the most 335 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.320 important precedents about national security, upholding the right of the 336 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:46.080 New York Times to even publish a secret history of 337 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:48.720 the Vietnam War. This wasn't supposed to be released, and 338 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:51.399 yet the First Amendment right was upheld here when it 339 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.480 comes to this bride plane or bribe force one, of 340 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.519 course there's a right in order to publish this. So 341 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.559 you know, one of the things I think you're pointing to, though, John, 342 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.159 is that we need legislation to build this up. And 343 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:04.759 so it's one of the things that I'm going to 344 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:07.240 talk about in this interview et cent Widen. What kind 345 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:09.799 of laws do we need to pass in order to 346 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:13.400 reinforce the First Amendment right of free speech, the right 347 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.559 of the press, the things that the Court you know, 348 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:17.759 should be doing, but I don't know that we can 349 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:19.160 trust it to do so anymore. 350 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.519 Should a nominee be asked whether he believes that Justice 351 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:27.400 Department has an obligation to protect press independence, even if 352 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:33.359 reporting is embarrassing or politically damaging to the administration. I'd 353 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:34.599 love to hear that question asked. 354 00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:38.759 This is a nominee to be the Director of National Intelligence. 355 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:41.920 One of the most important things that this person's tasked 356 00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:46.799 with doing is balancing civil liberties and security. And too 357 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:50.880 much actually power has been given to this apparatus, including 358 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.400 the Director of National Intelligence, and trying to show ethics 359 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:57.640 in that balance. But if you can't even protect the 360 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.480 First Amendment as a prosecutor as the US attorney, how 361 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:04.400 are we possibly trust you to do that in this 362 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.839 enormous role. And so, you know, the Constitution Thankfully we're 363 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:08.559 not powerless. 364 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:10.880 You know. We talk about hope, how to fight back. 365 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.039 Confirmation hearings the requirement of them are the place for that. 366 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.559 So yeah, that's what we need to you know, i'd 367 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:19.720 make the whole hearing about that. Frankly, I don't want 368 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:22.119 to hear his views about abstract subjects. 369 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:23.880 I want to know how you get past the threshold 370 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:26.359 question that you seem to be involved in the shutdown 371 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:28.680 of free speech. How do you expect to be Director 372 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.079 of National Intelligence? 373 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.480 I'd make the whole thing about convincing democrats. The harsher 374 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.200 your questions are, the better your fundraising will be this quarter. 375 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.000 That's how I would do it personally, Corey, we are 376 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:43.759 back to this administration murdering innocent, unarmed men in the streets. 377 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:46.960 Of course, Ice has now ended two lives that we 378 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.880 know of in the last week, one in Houston and 379 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.960 one in Maine. In both cases, no body cameras. Again. 380 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:57.880 We shovel billions and billions and billions into this organization, 381 00:18:58.039 --> 00:19:00.799 and wow, they can afford every kind of tactical gear, 382 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.000 every kind of tank, every kind of electronics, but oh, 383 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.839 they can't afford a go pro No body cameras again. 384 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.799 The one profession Corey that insists everyone must be documented 385 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:16.119 somehow keeps forgetting to document itself. It's really funny how 386 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:20.000 the cameras always disappear faster than male dignity at a 387 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:24.839 Trump cabinet meeting. But this is despicable. Ice has already 388 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:28.759 been caught in lies, demonstrably saying that, as with Renee Good, 389 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:32.200 that both of these men weaponize their vehicles. Of course, 390 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.079 there is in the case of mister Arajo, there are 391 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:37.400 three witnesses who say none of that's true, and they're 392 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:40.000 trying to get them to sign deportation papers so they 393 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.279 can never be interviewed in any investigation. According to their lawyer. 394 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:48.680 I mean, what safeguards exist when federal agents use lethal force. 395 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:51.480 There's never going to be any accountability for these men. 396 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.720 You know, we haven't seen a lot of accountability. 397 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.880 And in the same way that the Constitution gives enormous power, 398 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:01.079 and I should say, legislation has hand over even more 399 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:06.319 power to the National Intelligence Apparatus, to the Director of 400 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.480 National Intelligence, to those who are you know, supposedly going 401 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:13.759