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Speaker 1: This Christmas on Sky you can turn a silent knife

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into stoppage time the lice, an old mince pie into

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a stunning try.

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Speaker 2: It's two ten Lanska and a.

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Speaker 1: Winter chill into an alley Pali thrill with over fifty

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Premier League games, exclusive Champions Cup, and you r c

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rugby at all the darts turn your Christmas into a

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sports miss to remember with Sky Sports and Sports Extra

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merry sports miss.

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Speaker 3: His favor, said Ulivai Marta Vallei exula I couldn' should

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their father staffer to tom his fader larene trogi too,

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will you rudder organ will blow along when you need

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the two bought, couldn't the ta contorto Marvin twik toman

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Fi passionery augustiniml not to tour court at rsa punkai.

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Speaker 2: Meaning alight.

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Speaker 4: Man like this man you letting butterfly flapping his wing,

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dig down in the forest. Man, it gonna cause the

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tree fall, letting five thousand miles away.

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Speaker 5: Man, nobody seen, nobody.

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Speaker 4: See.

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Speaker 2: You don't need to know. Man, you don't like You

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followed a little story and you got back that man. Man,

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don't black a dang on pan over man, Man.

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Speaker 4: You don't don't matter, man, know sure everything such a

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funny cold open, all right, and instead now we just

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have a confusing one. Uh duo Stalty Titus. How are

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you guys doing?

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Speaker 5: Don't care?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you show up, You're ruined the cold open. Now

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you're talking over each other?

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Speaker 5: What is this? This is twelve thirty in the morning,

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when neither of us record. We other record very very late,

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or at like nine in the morning, So this is

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exactly a time when neither of us are actually on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're I mean, I have my drum students are

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all on vacation for today, so I've got a totally

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free day and I don't know what to do with myself.

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I don't have days off.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I mean, as a professional in the podcasting space,

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I both don't have a real job and don't have

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days off. So I certainly know what you mean. Although

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I will say the two of you have the most

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busted recording schedules. I've been been trying to get these

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two guys audience, like, well, we can do it at

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nine to thirty on a Friday or at seven in

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the morning, And I'm like, okay, guys, like, is there

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literally anything other than those two options, and so we're

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recording at noon on a Saturday.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's more of my fault. Dune works at nine

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to five, but I as a drum teacher, I work

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from like, you know, two thirty PM to nine or ten,

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depending on when I've got lessons booked, so I don't

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really get the luxury of a nine to five.

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Speaker 5: Well, so, unlike most people, my job actually gets more

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intense around the Christmas season because I work with a

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lot of municipalities and they all do their reorganizations in January.

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So for the last month, I've been getting home at

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like eight thirty at night pretty much every other day

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of the week. So, yeah, our recording schedule was completely busted.

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Speaker 2: It's a really good thing that we were somewhat on

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top of things, because it would be such a disaster

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if it wasn't.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, I mean we do a lot of planning.

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I think our Google doc is about two three months

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in advance, and we sit down and always have like

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a very long conversation. I don't do this much planning

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for my actual job. Like, it's just our schedules are

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so busted. We need to and because we're doing like

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in depth historical stuff and having to read first hand

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a talent like, all right, who can read three hundred

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pages of for copious over the next week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, which that'll that'll be our life for the next

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two months.

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Speaker 4: So that actually brings us to an important point. Uh,

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what do you guys do on your podcast? And what

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is your podcast? A professional would have would have started

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with that, but as evidenced by my inability to schedule

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a stupid video call, I am not a professional.

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Speaker 2: Uh, I'll take this one. We cover also. I mean

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this started as an extension of late night conversations Dan

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and I would have after our weekly D and D games,

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where you would sit on discord for several hours and

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talk about history. And this is actually I mean, we've

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been talking about history for probably about a year year

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and a half now, maybe, but since we were in

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the D and D thing, we were just talking more

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and more and Dune is like, all right, time to

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make a podcast about this. So it's an exten our

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ramblings and we've kind of put together a basic schedule

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of topic categories that we follow, but it mainly centers

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around ancient and medieval history. Neither of us are super

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interested in modern history.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we also feel like there's a lot of podcasts

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to kind of fill that in, Like you, I mean,

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it's been said a dozen times, but Thamas sudden. So

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I'm just just basically a college course in World War

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two and World War One and all before that, and

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that's face taken off by a lot of right wingers,

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and we were just we were talking about ancient history

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to the point where like there's no really it's not

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really anyone in this sphere that's kind of doing what

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we're doing, Like the rest of history is the big

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kind of ancient history podcast. A lot of not state

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history if people listen to Tristan Hughes has one, but

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they're all very lib coded, and I like to think

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when we're looking at history, it's not necessarily from a

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political lens, but we give a lot more credence to

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the ancient authors and when people that a miracle happened,

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when we want to actually dove that and other things,

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like there's a lot of moderns will say that the Vikings,

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if they made it to America, they only made it

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to like New Finland. But we did a whole episode

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and how they almost certainly got to Peru because of

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based on certain genetics in the area, based on a

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dog devil dogs. Yeah, it's uh. The podcast is basically,

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it's sort of a It should sound like two of

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your autistic friends late at night at a bar, just

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rambling about some topic they've been researching.

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately that's gotten us from you know, based well

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fortunately and unfortunately, but it's gotten us from like fun

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basic topic ideas to deep breakdowns of Justinian and having

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to go like looking through some of our.

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Speaker 5: Oh hold on, that's not fair, that's not a fair screed.

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Let's not forget. So the first episode started because there's

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there's this professor Christopher Beckwith who has a series of

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books and one of them is called The Skiddian Empire,

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and it's about how the Indian civilization, of the Persian civilization,

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the Greek civilization of the Chinese are all actually descendant

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of this super Scithian Empire. We were talking about this

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after like one of our game sessions. It was like, yeah,

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that sounds stupid, that's not real. It's like, okay, well,

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we're gonna start a podcast. So I got the book

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and I just highlighted quotes on quotes on whats it

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just went back through this pretty complexet and logical book

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and just basically definitively proves that the Scythians are the

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birth of all modern civilization. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, it's interesting you bring up you bring up

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primary sources, because you know, that's always the thing that

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I found interesting is the relative disdain for both primary

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sources and the people who read them. I don't know

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if you guys saw this, but there was a you know,

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interaction on X going around with you know, I think

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it's like Roman Helmet guy.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think I did a tweet about this

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where he was like, I only read primary sources entirely

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uncritically or something like that and take them at their word.

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And I think I can't remember if i'd sent the tweet,

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but I basically went, he's not wrong. But also because

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it's Roman Helmet guy saying this, he's wrong because he's

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just so stupid that he's not of a high enough

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IQ to do that, whereas Dune is and I'm kind

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of there.

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Speaker 4: That's a respectable position being just sudden like the break

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even point of like the minimum viable. Like you, it's

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sort of where I find myself in many places in

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life history notwithstanding, so I sort of it was primarily

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introduced to your guide's work on the TL Halloween Special,

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where you guys did it did an appearance there, I believe,

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going over some some ancient literature. Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, high class The Golden Ass.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so it was this. We did part of the

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Halloween special on this book called The Golden Ass by Apollonius,

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and it's the only extant Roman kind of fiction book.

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I guess you would say it's a pulp novella. Yeah,

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it's not written in verse. It's extremely well. Okay, so

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Titus and Ira of different opinions, he thinks it's extremely crass.

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I think it's very intentionally so outwardly, but is very

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much more so a articulation of a certain mystery school

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that's developing in Rome at the time, which is the

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cult of Isis, which is derived from the Egyptian version,

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because the Romans loved just traveling around and integrating all

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sorts of different gods. But yes, so that book is

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it is deeply fascinating, and to what you're speaking about,

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with primary sources, going back and being able to read

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you get an idea of how different in my opinion,

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you get an idea of how different these people were,

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what their conception of entertainment was, or all the different

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aspects of life. And we just did a whole big

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question and answer episode and part of that was addressing

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whether or not like these ancient people are really the

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same as the moderns. And I think the answer that

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question you need to go back and read the read

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the primary sources, and a lot of them aren't super

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difficult to access or read. Yeah, you get complex, well,

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you get complex books like the obviously the Iliad I

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know as much before, but that you need to like

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you need to analyze, or things like Thukiddittis where he

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walks through very very detailed the Peloponnesian War. But there's

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also like tastics Is Germania is like eighty pages and

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it's very easy to read. It's the big text. You

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understand it. He explains everything that's going on. It's the

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same thing with like Herodotus is the best of these

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primary tech Stop me if I'm going on, because I

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could just ray able about the glory of these but

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like of this, reading him as a primary text is

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great because the entire first three books are him just

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giving ethnographic histories of different parts of the world, and

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even if they're not entirely accurate, which I tend to

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think they mostly are, you get an idea of like, okay, well,

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humans back then thought that to identify, like the interesting

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thing about the Egyptians was that they had flying snakes

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and that they worship bulls, And you're like, well, that's

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not quite accurate. But it's just I think it's fascinating

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to pick out what people are identifiing in their world

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as important and then looking to today and saying, well,

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how are we different? Will is our emphasis today different

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a good thing? Usually not? So? Yeah? I love the

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primary sources of going back and the podcast lets me

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just r able the Titus about them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's inspired me to do a lot more

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primary source reading, which is something I didn't do nearly

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as much before we started the podcast. And now I've

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got the gallak Ores, I've got some other stuff, and

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you know, I'm reading through Procopius right now. But one

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thing that's also I think we do a good job

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of is taking the primary sources, because I think there

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is a middle ground. There is the modern concept of

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reading the primary sources and assuming that most of it's false.

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There is the right wing reactionary way of every single

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thing written down is exactly true here, and not only

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is it true, but it fits my particular worldview. I

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think that the middle is you have to take these

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as more true than not, but then kind of look

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at it and go, well, what could this mean if

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it wasn't true without having to immediately dismiss it. And

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I think we do a pretty good job of that.

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I mean, we did that whole thing on the Trojan

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War and the c people's and stuff like that, and

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that's what a lot of it was, is taking it

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and then starting to read it a little more in

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depth and trying to pick out the symbolism behind certain

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things without giving some lib tard explanation.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, like one of the common ones you'll

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come across and you're reading papers on like ancient historical

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sources is the reference the Cyrepedia, which is a book

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written by Xenophon about Cyrus, the founder of the Persian

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documented an empire, and if you read the book, it's

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almost completely a historical. We have references from multiple other sources,

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from like the inscriptions of where certain doubles were it's

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almost completely made up. So if you read it as

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a history book, you're like, well, this is completely bullshit.

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And that's what the moderns I've done. If you read

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a lot of papers to be like, well, you know,

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the syrapedia is just a load of crap. It's not useful,

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which is just completely untrue. It's very very useful for

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understanding how Xenophon was thinking of you know, why is

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he writing this, Well, it's to appeal to the Persians

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so they don't keep invading Greece or hiring mercenaries and

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then chasing them off because some contract went wrong. He's

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trying to basically build up relations between this country. Hence,

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what we get from Xenophon is probably what the Persian

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more accurate, is what the Persians would have told themselves.

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So you get a lot of people say, well, we

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don't have first hand Persian sources. That's what cyberped is is.

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It's a Greek guy, but he's basically telling the Persian stories.

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So when you look at these primary sources, you pull

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all these interesting things about them, like and we do

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just get these missed we otherwise would have missed.

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Speaker 2: We did that in our very first worst of History

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episode are talking about Xerxes, where my big defense of

261
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him was not that he was good, but his portrayal

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as the you know, demonic god king from the East

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is really just to help foster Greek ethnogenesis. Right, It's well,

264
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I think what I say, Xerxes was there, George the Third.

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You look at George the Third and any source that's

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not an American kid learning about the American Revolution in

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fourth grade and you go, yeah, he was all right.

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I mean he's mediocre, nothing crazy, but he's got to

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be are Satan Hitler because that's part of the American

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founding myth.

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Speaker 4: Well, right, it is, you know almost it becomes a

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figure slips from being historical to sort of part of

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the civic state religion. And that's sort of the interesting

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thing about like the when you look back to kind

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of the in the ancient world, is that there's there's

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less of a self delusion about having a civic state religion. Yes, obviously,

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you know you have you have you know, like the

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idiot right, you have you know, literally like a state

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sponsored uh you know, explanation as to how Rome exists.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you've got to get Romulus and Remus and then

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you've got the Iliot in the Odyssey are essentially that.

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But for Greece, et cetera, et cetera. I'm sure the

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Indians have some sort of thing. In the Chinese, which

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are not real, have some other not real source is

285
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that they try to draw on. But because they're animals,

286
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not animals, they're insects. Animals animals has some racial undertones

287
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that I don't want to say, but they are insects.

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And we will be discussing this later anyway. Yes, a

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lot of ancient cultures had these, you know we it's

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civic state religion. Yeah, and I've been calling it like

291
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a founding myth, right they all have are our nation

292
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came to be in this kind of fanciful telling of

293
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something that's not actually true, but it you know, works

294
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and it helps identity. It helps build our identity is

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what we are. And I think, what was it?

296
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Speaker 5: What was it?

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Speaker 2: Around Thanksgiving? When done?

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Speaker 5: You? And I?

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Speaker 2: No, No, was before Halloween. We had a really long

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conversation about like this founding myth idea because I had

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was listening to the Martyr Made series and and he

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was talking about how hard it is to build a

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nation and that the standard human experience is tribe and

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clan and family, and breaking beyond that is way harder

305
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than a lot of people, especially in the West, think.

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Speaker 5: I think that's a very modern I don't think that's right.

307
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I think that's a very modern that might be too forcible.

308
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I respectfully disagree with you, my dear co Hos, on that.

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I think a nation is a very very natural evolution,

310
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and it's not actually a hard thing to get to.

311
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Maintaining it and keeping it is difficult, but I think

312
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it's the natural evolution. So we brought this up a

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lot for it. There's a guy, it's not Heradus himself,

314
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but he cites him in the Peloponnesian War when the

315
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Macedonians are there's a question of whether or not they're

316
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going to help the Greeks fight off the Persians, and

317
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the Macedonians are like, well, we can help you. We're Greeks.

318
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They all fix look at each other and say, no,

319
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you're not Greeks, you're Macedonians, and there's not really They're like, well,

320
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you speak with funny accents, and you descend from different people.

321
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And the way that the guy in histories puts it

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is that. Look, a nation consists of shared language, shared culture,

323
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shared religion, and shared blood and you guys don't have that.

324
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I think those for criteria are really good for actually

325
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saying what a nation is, in avoiding the trap of

326
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falling into describing as a nation state referencing it. Yeah,

327
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I think that's too much of a eighteen hundred seventy hundred.

328
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I should have I should have specified a

329
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more nation state. But even then, I think that you

330
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can still have a national concept. But getting people to

331
00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:52,599
believe in that more than their own personal ties is

332
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pretty difficult. Well, like darylku brings up that old like

333
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talking about like modern Mediterranean countries, like in Italy, corruptions

334
00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:04,519
just rampant because people care about their family and their

335
00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:07,160
clan way more than they care about paying taxes to

336
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the state, which number one based number two kind of

337
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shows that they don't have that loyalty to the idea. No,

338
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And also Italy is a fake nation anyway.

339
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Speaker 5: So okay, this is a misunderstanding. When you're thinking of nation,

340
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you need to think of it as tests as describes it. Okay, right,

341
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so you have you have the German nations. There's different

342
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,039
tribes right, but they all roughly have the shared language,

343
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shared blood, shared culture, and shared religion. Yeah, these guys

344
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might sacrifice goats on a Friday and these guys on

345
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a Sunday, but they're the same nation of people. I

346
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don't think that. Yes, you have clan structures within that,

347
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but I think the nation is a natural abstraction on

348
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top of that. Like, you wouldn't say that, Okay, well,

349
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:56,519
now this would be accurate. You want to say that

350
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Sicilians are less Italian than people living in law right,

351
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they speak the same language. Well, okay, obviously, yeah, I

352
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would actually argue that, no, the the.

353
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Speaker 2: And this almost counters my own point. And this is

354
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why sometimes building a nation state out of several separate

355
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cultures is kind of a futile thing, because Sicilians would

356
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not see themselves the same as Milanese, and Milanese wouldn't

357
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even see them the Sicilians as human.

358
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Speaker 5: Yeah, well that that's irrelevant to whether or not they

359
00:20:27,839 --> 00:20:30,640
the individual perception is irrelevant to whether or not they

360
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actually are. But they both that's.

361
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Speaker 2: Well, okay, they don't share the same language really, I

362
00:20:39,759 --> 00:20:44,880
mean not really Italians a construct. The Sicilians spoke Sicilian.

363
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The Milanese spoke the the you know the dialect there

364
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,359
they didn't, you know, they were separate things. And I

365
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,200
this is a longer thing. You know, Jay, how many

366
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times do you have people from a podcast come on

367
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and like agree as one united front with me and

368
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Dune We just start arguing. It's great.

369
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Speaker 5: I love it. We were on's podcast.

370
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Speaker 4: The last time I had two co hosts from a

371
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podcast on, they just both teamed up against a missing

372
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member of the podcast and called him gay for like

373
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an hour. And yeah, so I guess you could say

374
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that is unity, right, you know, it just united front

375
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against one of the other guys who's not there. So

376
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,039
if you guys could invent a third co host, uh,

377
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and then we can just like belittle him like sexually

378
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or socially. And that's really the comfortable place for my podcast.

379
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Speaker 2: It's funny you say that because there's a literal, actual,

380
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:47,039
primary historical source that does that. The Historia Augusta is

381
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this beautiful primary source that is about seventeen percent factual,

382
00:21:54,839 --> 00:21:57,839
and they make they have this other right, it's a

383
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,799
collection of writers, is essentially the very it's it's tl

384
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,599
but for like ancient Rome, and they may they have

385
00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:11,000
this extra writer that they keep dogging on, and we

386
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,559
have no evidence of that writer ever existing, But throughout

387
00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:18,240
the entire book they just go in on the sky.

388
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:20,599
There's also the thing that it may just all be

389
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,200
written by one author as well. There's like, it's one

390
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,720
of my favorite historical texts ever, and that's one of

391
00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:27,480
the few ones where all to go everything in this

392
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,559
is true because every emperor has an omen. Every emperor

393
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,799
starts out as like, you know, on the eve of

394
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:44,240
Emperor Maximinus Thracks, you know, ascension, a cow gave birth

395
00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:47,440
to a calf with three heads and green spots, and

396
00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:49,920
you're like, wow, the auspices are great.

397
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 4: Well, actually that's something I think that I think we

398
00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:56,480
should get back to. It is more Augury.

399
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 2: I think that you know we have on the show.

400
00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 5: Show you so my previous career before I was an attorney,

401
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,480
I was there. There's an old bit On I hate

402
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,519
to keep referencing them, but old bit On Tlee, which

403
00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:16,160
is uh. They would occasionally bring up bird news. There's

404
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,680
a guy who every day for about a year would

405
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,680
send them bird news collected around the air. Is so

406
00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:25,319
much so he took on the title of Augur and

407
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,039
that that man is myself. I was. I was really

408
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:34,160
into bird symbology for a while for about three months

409
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,640
of my life, in very early in law school, and

410
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,559
I was like, this is great. I'll send them there.

411
00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:40,480
But I agree with you, we need more. We need

412
00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:42,759
more Augury. I think we should get back to it.

413
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,960
It is. It's very entertaining. I think, I mean, Croesis

414
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,240
of Lydia is the great. Well that's not really Augury.

415
00:23:50,319 --> 00:23:53,079
That's over cool, DELFI. But yeah, I don't have too

416
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,079
many more opinions. I think reading the future is a

417
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,440
good Christian practice. We should continue to do. Yeah.

418
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,400
Speaker 4: Well, and I think that we really need to. We

419
00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:03,079
really need to drill down to you know, the essence

420
00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:09,119
of augury, if you will. Uh, reading entrails cool. Looking

421
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,240
at flocks of birds also cool. And you know, in

422
00:24:13,319 --> 00:24:15,640
this kind of current era of you know, the so

423
00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,240
called you know, perversions like science or something like that,

424
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,640
like it's boring. They entertain me, like we really need.

425
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,319
Speaker 2: I would say science is really interesting and honestly a dissection, uh,

426
00:24:29,519 --> 00:24:31,920
like you know the dissections you do in school of

427
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,799
like the frogs that are in the formaldehyde, that's them

428
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,960
trying to bring back augury, but they don't know it

429
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:39,319
because they're libtards.

430
00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 5: Well, okay, So Genesis eight, the story of the Tower

431
00:24:44,039 --> 00:24:47,279
of Babbel instructs us that man cannot build his way

432
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,920
to heaven, and when he attempts to supplant himself in

433
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,920
the place of God, chaos ensues. Right, it's attempting to

434
00:24:54,279 --> 00:24:57,119
construct the ultimate order leads to the ultimate chaos in

435
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,319
the realm of augury. What this means is the the

436
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,160
scientific detail and break down of intestines and veins and

437
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,799
knowing where everything is and laying it out and drawing

438
00:25:07,839 --> 00:25:11,359
it out on a map. That that is a sin.

439
00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:14,240
It is attempt to reconstruct the Tower of Babel. And

440
00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:16,240
what what real augurs need to do we need to

441
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,079
get back to is none of the scientist craft, which

442
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,279
is actually something I genuinely believe, just pure intuition we need,

443
00:25:23,799 --> 00:25:27,880
like we need just people who have their cow don't

444
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,960
don't none of the scientific study. If you get a disease.

445
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,079
If an FDA inspector gets a diseased cow in front

446
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,079
of him, I don't want him to do any scientific tests.

447
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,119
I want him to tear open the guts with his

448
00:25:38,279 --> 00:25:44,079
bare hands and then just sense sense the disease itself. Yeah.

449
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 4: See, dude, this is exactly exactly what I was getting.

450
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,480
I was getting towards, uh, the kind of gen Z

451
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,039
framing would be like like vibes based augury, we have

452
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,039
to work on that. You can find something a little

453
00:25:57,079 --> 00:25:58,799
more uh, a little more academic.

454
00:25:59,039 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: You're area farming.

455
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And actually I think we should apply this

456
00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:08,200
exact same process to medicine as well. Like you go

457
00:26:08,319 --> 00:26:11,200
into the dentist and it's like, hey, yeah, sorry, I'm

458
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,359
not gonna look at your teeth, but if you want,

459
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,759
I will cut open your stomach, rummage around and see

460
00:26:16,759 --> 00:26:20,119
how I feel. And I think that would really dramatically

461
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,240
cut down on problems like you know, overcrowding in the er.

462
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,720
I think that there's there's legs on this idea, is

463
00:26:25,759 --> 00:26:26,240
what I'm saying.

464
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,079
Speaker 2: I just thought, when you're going with the dentist thing,

465
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,759
I was gonna say, I mean, dentistry really is close

466
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,440
to augury because he's just sticking these fingers in your

467
00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:38,240
mouth and just like messing you up for like half

468
00:26:38,279 --> 00:26:41,599
an hour and going, yeah, your second molar is all

469
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,640
fucked up. It's like thanks buddy, Like you know, and

470
00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:49,519
I wonder that actually dentistry is a truly sadistic profession

471
00:26:49,599 --> 00:26:54,839
as well, because number one, there's some certain demographic and

472
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,160
ethnic compositions of dentists that I don't like.

473
00:26:57,799 --> 00:26:58,839
Speaker 5: And also.

474
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: They talk to you, well, their fingers are in your

475
00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:08,119
mouth and they're asking you questions about your day in

476
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,839
your life. I've had people ask me about relationship advice

477
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,599
or not a relationship advice, but trying to like get

478
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,359
stuff out of me.

479
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,319
Speaker 6: And yeah, and and they're and like this guy's got

480
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,839
his hand his fist in my mouth, like when they

481
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,680
expect you to answer, I just it's it's cruel and unusual.

482
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 2: And you know, dentistry is a terrible practice that.

483
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 4: You know, you know who who were meticulous about dental

484
00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:42,680
hygiene The Romans.

485
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, pre Christian Rome was a depraved and degenerate place.

486
00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:50,720
We talk about this a lot on the podcast. I

487
00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:54,160
don't you know, pre Christian Rome they had dentists and

488
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,240
they also sent Christians to die in the coliseum.

489
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,559
Speaker 5: Well, okay, so the reason why the Romans had better

490
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:10,799
teeth is because of electromagnetism. So we come on. So, uh,

491
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,960
one of the big issues with modern science is that

492
00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:18,920
it tells us there are five senses. This is like

493
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,359
just clearly incorrect. There's sixth sense demonic. No, well, now

494
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:25,720
I want to I want to go that far. I

495
00:28:25,759 --> 00:28:27,720
think it's just merely this part of science is not

496
00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:30,960
necessarily demonic, just incorrect. We have six senses. We have

497
00:28:31,039 --> 00:28:34,240
electromagnetism as a sense, which sounds very woo woo, but

498
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,759
it's not. Because everything with an electrical charge generates an

499
00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:42,559
electrical field. You as a human being, generate an electrical field. Right,

500
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,440
So what happens is that your teeth are very very

501
00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:49,200
close to your nerves, right they're they're right up but

502
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,200
right up against them. My parents are physicians, so you

503
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,519
can trust me. All my knowledge on this is accurate.

504
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,599
So what happens with modern dentistry is because you're constantly

505
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,440
blasted with ionizing radiation when you go in. It's slowly

506
00:29:02,519 --> 00:29:04,839
and just walking throughout your day because there's so much

507
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,640
more electromagnetic radiation. Is the nerves which are closer to

508
00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:11,440
the skin, especially in your mouth, right where they are

509
00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:14,799
the closest, they slowly start to generate and degrade. So

510
00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:17,799
teeth in the modern area in a first world society

511
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,759
tends to degenerate faster because of this electromagnetic interference with

512
00:29:21,839 --> 00:29:24,799
the nervous system. The Romans obviously do not have this,

513
00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:28,319
and also the toothbrushes, so they actually have pretty good teeth,

514
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,799
which is why when you go back, being completely serious

515
00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:32,759
about this too, which is why when you go back

516
00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:34,960
and you look at Roman teeth, they actually look like

517
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,440
pretty good like we have. There's not like they didn't

518
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,559
have a need to invent braces or like other shit

519
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,200
like we deentitty job. Yeah, they just had in well,

520
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,559
they did have dent adventures. Yeah, they did these like

521
00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:51,279
teeth and stuff like George Washington.

522
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: But didn't George Washington's dentures have like lead in them

523
00:29:55,359 --> 00:29:55,960
or something like that.

524
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 5: It was a slave teeth, not hell fant some other

525
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:00,920
animal won't change.

526
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,759
Speaker 4: The horse, wasn't it.

527
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,079
Speaker 2: Yeah it was horse.

528
00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:06,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was a hipopotamous.

529
00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 5: I can't remember hrd African animal. But yeah, go ahead.

530
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 4: I realized I don't really know enough about either dentistry

531
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,079
or history to continue that line of questioning.

532
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, us hit us with another question.

533
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 4: I had this whole gimmick planned out to give you

534
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:30,799
guys fun facts about different other places named robe.

535
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:32,559
Speaker 5: Uh, and have you guess.

536
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,559
Speaker 4: But the problem is there's really only like two and

537
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,920
after that it just gets to like really granular specific

538
00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:42,079
details about like Rome Georgia that just are not at

539
00:30:42,079 --> 00:30:43,160
all amusing.

540
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,279
Speaker 2: Hit us with it. I'm still interested.

541
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:49,519
Speaker 4: See The point is I was gonna make you guess

542
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,759
which Rome is it. Uh, there's a few around, I

543
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,000
know there there's there's several uh and yeah the uh

544
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,920
but just to go back to the previous point.

545
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:02,359
Speaker 1: Uh.

546
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,039
Speaker 4: Actually, that's that's sort of one of the the other

547
00:31:07,079 --> 00:31:10,119
kind of like facets of like modern conversation about history.

548
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,039
I think is really interesting. Which is this like and

549
00:31:13,119 --> 00:31:15,799
people call it different things, like I think was it

550
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,720
Chesterton who coined the term presentism or Lewis I can't

551
00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:23,839
remember which, right, Which is this idea that, like everyone before,

552
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,519
like nineteen sixty four was comedically retarded and evil. And

553
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,680
I remember watching this, uh, watching this like documentary in

554
00:31:33,839 --> 00:31:37,640
like grade school or whatever about romans, and it was

555
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:42,119
basically talking about how like the the optimal like the

556
00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:45,480
there was according to this stupid documentary, right, it was

557
00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:49,039
all about like romans drinking piss to keep their teeth

558
00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:52,000
from rotting out. And I remember, even at like age

559
00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:53,640
like whatever, seven to eight. I was like, I'm gonna

560
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,599
be honest, dude, that seems kind of fake like I

561
00:31:56,839 --> 00:32:00,839
would be. I feel like that's probably not true. Do

562
00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:02,599
you know what I'm talking about? This sort of like

563
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,960
comedic need to make the past like like almost like

564
00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:09,200
over the top any that it's like horrible.

565
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: And killing Youla, making his horse senator or did that

566
00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:18,119
not happen? From what I remember, and it's been a

567
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:19,960
minute since I walked into.

568
00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 4: It, I'll be really disappointed if it didn't.

569
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 5: No, I have. So it's not crazy though, because basically

570
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,400
what happens is it's a vote in this It's not

571
00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:30,839
because it's a vote in the Senate to engage in

572
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:33,759
a military campaign. I think it's in day shit, it's

573
00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:37,079
somewhere in eastern Europe. And basically he doesn't have the

574
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:38,720
votes for it. And this is a little bit earlier

575
00:32:38,799 --> 00:32:41,319
on in his reign, so everyone's willing to sort of

576
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:44,559
oppose him. What he does is he's like one vote

577
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:48,200
shy of Actually he doesn't actually meet the Senate's confirmation,

578
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,759
but you know, just for looks. So what he does

579
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,160
is he appoints his horse as a senator so that

580
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,359
he can get the final vote. The issue is the

581
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:03,519
horse naize, right, it's who can translate a horse's nee. Well,

582
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,440
of course Colligily can translate the horse's ney, so he

583
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:08,279
votes with them. So it's not a crazy thing. It's

584
00:33:08,319 --> 00:33:10,359
a little bit weird.

585
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know how it's played off, that's what

586
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,599
I'm kind of more going. Yeah, yeah, it's played off

587
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,799
in the same kind of like ha ha, the Caligula

588
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,279
put a horse in the start because you was crazy,

589
00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:25,079
and it's like, well, he was less like crazy and

590
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:26,119
more just a sadist.

591
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,559
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, it's also like I have very, very

592
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:36,039
great sympathy for Caligula because especially and you do get

593
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,880
a lot of people in history who do really evil,

594
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,640
really insane shit. But the issue with the modern history

595
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,519
kind of like you're saying, Jays, people will look back

596
00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:47,359
and just see that part, but people don't or forget

597
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,319
to mention the fact that Coligilia is basically raped daily

598
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,359
from the time he's child by Tiberius and this is

599
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:57,000
on the Isle of Capri. He watches many people get

600
00:33:57,079 --> 00:33:59,680
raped and roof from he himself is raped dozens one

601
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,880
hundred of times. And then you get this guy and

602
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,160
everyone's like, oh, they look at this crazy, crazy emperor guy.

603
00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:07,519
Speaker 2: It's like, we can we can say rape on the

604
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,760
Jay Burton Show, right, we can say rape.

605
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,599
Speaker 4: I mean I'm not going to be bothered to edit

606
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:13,800
it out, so yes you can.

607
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,519
Speaker 5: Well yeah, but I mean like that figure and then

608
00:34:17,559 --> 00:34:20,159
you're like, okay, well look at Tiberius. Well, Tiberius was

609
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,239
raised in the time where all the other people who

610
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,880
are supposed to be emperor die, so he just kind

611
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,400
of ends up there. He hates it. He hates dealing

612
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,519
with people this whole time, and not to mention that

613
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,519
all his closest ally like his mother's batshit insane, all

614
00:34:35,559 --> 00:34:38,079
of his closest friends are dead, and it's just him

615
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,840
against this group of senators who are hostile against him

616
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,199
because he's you know, like he's the second emperor and

617
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,079
not really sure things are going to go this way.

618
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,280
So it drives him insane and then he becomes a

619
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:52,280
statistic child rapist. But you know, there's a there's a

620
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,159
story behind why these people become evil, and just painting

621
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,800
them as you know it, just painting them as the

622
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,719
ultimate hitler, is she evil? Is? It's nonsense, and I

623
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,960
think it does a disservice to the evils that these

624
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:04,960
people actually suffered.

625
00:35:06,039 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 4: Well, and I think that's a that's another interesting point.

626
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,960
You guys have mentioned the need for you know, people

627
00:35:11,079 --> 00:35:14,400
like King George to sort of serve as these like,

628
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,639
you know, satanic figures, and you know, I think one

629
00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:20,800
of the most interesting points to discuss when these sort

630
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,159
of satanic figures arise is the like and then for

631
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,599
no reason at all, he went literally insane. Yeah, you know,

632
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,760
like that is that is the narrative which justifies their evil.

633
00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:32,400
You know, it's not like there was a you know,

634
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,400
a predicate. It is simply he was evil and crazy

635
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,679
and horrible, and there's nothing about him that makes any sense.

636
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:43,039
Speaker 2: Because you can't humanize you know, in a founding myth,

637
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,719
the evil guy cannot be humanized at all because he

638
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,840
is literally meant just as a device to further the

639
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:58,599
goals of the nation's founding and or you know the

640
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,199
other kind of know what, whatever else is being justified.

641
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,800
So yeah, you're right, you can't humanize it. And it

642
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,880
is very funny that in the kind of libtard frame

643
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,079
of historiography there is an attempt to humanize everyone except

644
00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:17,960
for bad people, well except for people they deem bad.

645
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,000
They'll try to humanize Nero, which I do think they

646
00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:24,920
do a decent job with. They try to humanize you know,

647
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,400
just about anyone and everyone. But if they provide a

648
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:33,639
useful tool to further the libtard narrative, they will not

649
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,079
be humanized, which is a very obvious thing to say.

650
00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:40,199
You know, I sound like James lindsay here the Woke

651
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,159
in two hundred a d. But I think it's a

652
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,360
thing to just keep in mind when you're reading a

653
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,480
lot of history, especially modern history, because most of it

654
00:36:50,639 --> 00:36:52,639
is done by libtards unfortunately.

655
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think that that's it's sort of interesting

656
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,920
to see either this of ideological priors you're sort of

657
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,079
echo through because even if there is sort of no

658
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,639
moment where the mask slips and there's something that is

659
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,760
I guess you'd say, like explicitly political, said, you amost

660
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,119
see it in the framing itself, right where it's like

661
00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:19,480
there's no point where it's like, you know, this person

662
00:37:19,599 --> 00:37:21,880
was bad because they were you know, the Donald Trump

663
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,400
of the third century. Like it's never that cartoonish, no,

664
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:30,519
but you'll see see the same sort of like ideological framing. Sorry, Titus,

665
00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:31,119
I'll throw it back to you.

666
00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:34,599
Speaker 2: No, No, you're you're exactly right there. It's you'll never

667
00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:36,880
see well, I shouldn't say that, because a lot of

668
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,360
times you will nowadays, but you you won't see as

669
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,000
much of the ideological framing. But one of the one

670
00:37:43,039 --> 00:37:48,440
of the examples of you know, LIBTRD framing is over

671
00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:53,800
analyzing romantic and sexual relationships of historical rulers, you know,

672
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:58,239
even beyond the oh this person was secretly gay or

673
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,440
whatever thing, which one of my more hot takes on

674
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,840
that is, I'm more than willing to believe ex Roman

675
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,679
emperor was gay or transgender, because most of those Roman

676
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,159
empires were terrible degenerates, you know, I'm more than willing to, like,

677
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,800
I don't. I think that there does not need to

678
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,159
be a knee jerk reaction to go Actually, no, Ela

679
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,280
Gabolis was not transgender. Yeah, el Gables was transgender. Ali

680
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,400
Gables was also awful and mentally unwell exactly.

681
00:38:27,199 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 4: But it's like, do you really want to own that one?

682
00:38:29,599 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 5: You know?

683
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, but they do. That's kind of the weird thing

684
00:38:32,199 --> 00:38:34,280
is that they do well.

685
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,559
Speaker 4: And I think that it's it's also and this is

686
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:41,760
always the case with history and literature that there is

687
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,239
sort of a a stated and revealed purpose of any

688
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,159
work where it's like, well, obviously this is technically a

689
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,000
book or a narrative around X event, but it's it

690
00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:56,360
is sort of touched by like the spirit of the age.

691
00:38:57,199 --> 00:39:01,119
And it's interesting, you know, the a lot of the

692
00:39:01,199 --> 00:39:08,320
discussion around the kind of sexual proclivities of different historic figures,

693
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,920
and you see this even up into modern history. You

694
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,639
know that the most recent uh, you know, Napoleon movie

695
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:14,679
is sort of an example of this.

696
00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:16,599
Speaker 2: If you're going to talk about the one where it's

697
00:39:16,639 --> 00:39:19,760
Abraham Lincoln is gay and I was like, yes, that

698
00:39:20,039 --> 00:39:24,320
Abraham was gay, Tom Tom Dealer, my My de Lorenzo

699
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:26,559
book sitting there, real Lincoln vindicated.

700
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,519
Speaker 4: Look, regardless of the historical fact Lincoln was metaph was

701
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,079
gay in a derogatory sense, even if he is not

702
00:39:35,159 --> 00:39:40,159
in a literal sense. Also in a literal sense, Yeah, yeah,

703
00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:43,239
there's a point to be made. But to Napoleon, right,

704
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,840
where the whole focus of that film is effectively on

705
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,559
this like you know, bizarre, you know, humiliating series of

706
00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:53,599
relationships where it seems like this sort of desire to

707
00:39:54,599 --> 00:40:00,199
counter the idea of kind of heroic trans and then

708
00:40:00,559 --> 00:40:04,079
the idea that someone could be more than just you know,

709
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,440
a weird sex pervert, and deep down everyone is that.

710
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,760
And you know, obviously you know we've we've always had

711
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,960
sex perverts and we always will. But I do think

712
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,920
it's interesting this idea to sort of deliberately miss the

713
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,480
point because look, like you know, people aren't interested in,

714
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,559
you know, Alexander the Great because of the sexual history.

715
00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:26,800
People dig into it because he is otherwise notable. But

716
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,719
it's sort of this idea to kind of pull everything

717
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,199
into the kind of like mundane if you see what

718
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:33,920
I'm getting at there.

719
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will push back slightly and say, there are

720
00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:39,920
some people that are interested in Asia the Great for

721
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,320
his sexual proclivities in.

722
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 4: Those are, but I mean, that's not why he is

723
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:44,719
a notable figure.

724
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 5: No, but it is.

725
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,039
Speaker 2: But it is a wider symptom of what happens when

726
00:40:48,079 --> 00:40:50,800
you let women and gay people who are also women

727
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,119
in any position and unix of any sort, whether it

728
00:40:55,199 --> 00:40:59,320
be transgender or not, into any sort of position of influence.

729
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,119
One of the big rules that you and I have

730
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:06,159
on dostalty, that you learned from history is never ever

731
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,199
ever let women or unix run anything, and because gay

732
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:16,800
people are women, you know it. It's another great example

733
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,760
of that kind of thing is just taking over and

734
00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:24,239
we're going to make this historical figure all about these

735
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,360
weird sexual proclivities, because that's all I can think about

736
00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:31,400
because I just finished the latest book of I got

737
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,519
impregnated by a minotaur and I need to go. And

738
00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:42,239
now all of a sudden, Alexander the Great had you know,

739
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,679
sex with his male best friend or whatever, which I

740
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,199
don't know. Dune, what do you? What's your take on

741
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,679
the Alexander I STM thing.

742
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 5: I hate. I hate all that. I hate talking about it.

743
00:41:54,159 --> 00:41:57,599
I hate the idea. It's just I don't care like

744
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,639
and it's irrelevant to the story. Like, okay, so they're

745
00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:03,880
out on campaign, they're not women around these two, these

746
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,079
two dudes, one both of whom are Greek, have sex

747
00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:10,480
with each other. It's like, okay, I suppocific all right,

748
00:42:10,559 --> 00:42:12,880
that's a revolutionary historical thing. Wow, I'm so great that

749
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,039
we're spending like books and books discussing who this guy

750
00:42:16,119 --> 00:42:19,960
screwed and not the sheer luck he had or any

751
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:23,480
capability he had militarily. Yeah, let's focus on who. It's

752
00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:27,639
just someone this stuff is important, Like sometime who people

753
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,800
sleep with is important in history, like for example, Ella Gablos,

754
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,559
it's actually important because the reason he ends up murdered

755
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,480
is because everyone's like this, Sorry, I had to self

756
00:42:38,519 --> 00:42:42,840
censor there. This guy, Uh, this guy is running around

757
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,519
like asking the guards to have sex with him, and

758
00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:48,400
he wants to cut off his his penis to make

759
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,079
a giant like that, Like it's important that we have

760
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,679
that information, you know, why he dies. But yeah, for

761
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,039
things like Alexander, it's just it really does anger me

762
00:42:57,119 --> 00:42:59,239
because I don't want to talk about it. But it's

763
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,360
so it's irrelevant. It's kind of gross. I don't particularly

764
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,440
in my day to day life, and I'm super interested

765
00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:10,119
in who my other friends are sleeping with. Like it's yeah,

766
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,639
I'm utterly uninterested and annoyed at the emphasis on this

767
00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:19,039
kind of crap to the point where I think I've

768
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:21,639
developed a good, good enough sense orhenever I put on

769
00:43:21,679 --> 00:43:24,199
a historical documentary, you can usually tell in a minute

770
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,199
or two, like, all right, is there going to be

771
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,760
a whole twenty minute section about them as secretly being gay?

772
00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:33,239
So yeah, I hate all this crap and.

773
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,599
Speaker 2: It just shows it kind of ties in with ties

774
00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:38,440
in with what we're talking about, what Jay, what you're

775
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:43,760
saying with like the comedic comedically bad angle. It's just

776
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:50,880
this kind of infantilizing veni juvenilization of that's not really

777
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:52,400
a word, but it's going to be a word today

778
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,320
of history. I don't think a lot of these people

779
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,800
that claim to like history a lot actually want to

780
00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:04,360
gauge with history. They have their own weird perversions and

781
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,079
stuff like that and want to map that onto.

782
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:08,599
Speaker 5: History.

783
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,119
Speaker 2: And they also think it's It's like George R. Martin,

784
00:44:11,119 --> 00:44:12,880
as much as I love the Song of Ice and Fire,

785
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,519
you know, it's this kind of like everything's gray, everything's

786
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,280
you know, very morally degenerate.

787
00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 5: Oh I can tell this back to history. Yeah, so this,

788
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,760
this is exactly what this is. So in Edward Gibbon

789
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,519
when he's writing The Decline in Fall, there is a

790
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,079
very big debate in the history community whether or not

791
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,280
God is responsible for everything in This is prost and argument,

792
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,079
but whether or not God is responsible for everything in

793
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,320
history in a sort of Presbyterian columnistic sense that everything's predetermined,

794
00:44:44,639 --> 00:44:47,880
or whether or not human being agency like half free

795
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,960
will and actually affect history. This is a really big deal,

796
00:44:51,039 --> 00:44:53,880
to the point where Given actually leaves England because so

797
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:55,519
many of the people that are like, yeah, God's in

798
00:44:55,599 --> 00:44:58,840
control of everything, and Given, when he's writing Decline and Fall,

799
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,480
he's like, well, I can't just say that, I have

800
00:45:01,519 --> 00:45:05,000
to actually explain, like what's going on. And in all

801
00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:07,239
the other history books about Rome at the time, they

802
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,280
basically say the bad things that have to Rome because

803
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,840
of God's providence, the good things are because of God's profitence.

804
00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:16,840
And it's just this unnecessary insistence on repeatedly bringing up

805
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,559
the divine to explain events, whereas like, if you're a Christian,

806
00:45:20,599 --> 00:45:22,440
you can believe that, but if you're writing a history,

807
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,880
but you don't need to include it in every bloody paragraph.

808
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,320
So Gibvens what he's doing in Decline and Fall is

809
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,960
very much trying to get away from that. I think

810
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:34,280
that today that's what a lot of the backfitting are,

811
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,800
like the modern weird perversions onto history is is it's

812
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,519
just a it's a very temporal thing that's going to

813
00:45:40,599 --> 00:45:43,280
go away. Then two hundred years are going to look around.

814
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,760
The two hundred years are going to look back on

815
00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:49,159
and say, oh, yeah, they had a very strange historiography

816
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,760
for about sixty eighty years.

817
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,199
Speaker 2: That, yeah, but will it actually go away? Gibbons Gibbons

818
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,360
historiography with the Roman Empire has endured, you know, and

819
00:45:58,719 --> 00:45:59,199
whether or.

820
00:45:59,199 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 5: Not that's what that's my point. Given was a good

821
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,239
guy there. He was fighting against the modern I might

822
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,400
not have articulated that super well, but Given was fighting

823
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,360
against the contemporary conception of historiography of the time of

824
00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:13,760
God as the soul mover of history, which is something

825
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,800
I believe is a Presbyterian. But you know, like I

826
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,800
was saying, you don't need to write that in every

827
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:18,480
history book.

828
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's something.

829
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:25,159
Speaker 5: There's something to that.

830
00:46:25,679 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 4: I'm always sort of interested in, you know, as you've said, right,

831
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,920
the the sort of the degree to which you sort

832
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,920
of can't ever get out of like your your own

833
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,079
kind of like cultural waters. You can never fully kind

834
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:47,719
of remove yourself from that. So I'm curious. So maybe

835
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,320
this is an overally vague question, but when you were

836
00:46:51,639 --> 00:46:57,559
you are reading sort of primary sources, obviously you have

837
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:00,559
kind of a number of different translations. Do you find

838
00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:05,559
yourself drawn to, you know, one certain era, because obviously

839
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,760
this is sort of something I'm only aware of distantly

840
00:47:08,119 --> 00:47:11,480
but I follow enough classicists to understand that there's sort

841
00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:14,800
of a running gun battle being waged in the translation

842
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:20,639
of primary sources to sort of conform them with modern sensibilities.

843
00:47:21,039 --> 00:47:23,480
So one, I guess, do you have any particularly translators

844
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:25,880
you enjoy? And then is there a particular pattern like

845
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,880
are you a fan of the Victorians or older or

846
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:28,440
newer than that?

847
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 5: Yes, give me one second, I'll go get my translator.

848
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so while dunes while dunees grabbing stuff, I can

849
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,559
kind of give my take on this, which is one,

850
00:47:38,119 --> 00:47:40,639
I find whatever is easiest for me to find on

851
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,599
online for free, or what's cheapest on Amazon when I'm

852
00:47:44,599 --> 00:47:48,159
buying a book. That's that's my fast and dirty answer.

853
00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:51,800
But I also think that the bigger answer is that

854
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,400
it depends on the text. It depends on is this

855
00:47:55,599 --> 00:47:59,800
something that is going to have a heavy historical Is

856
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,079
this going to have socio political ramifications?

857
00:48:03,599 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 5: Right?

858
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,079
Speaker 2: The Iliad and the Odyssey, that's a good example. Right,

859
00:48:06,119 --> 00:48:09,400
there's a whole uproar over the latest translation of the

860
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,639
Alien in the Odyssey because they're terrible, you know, they're

861
00:48:12,679 --> 00:48:17,800
they're they're like millennial slop libtard language, and that's not

862
00:48:18,039 --> 00:48:21,480
how Homer's meant to be read. So in things like

863
00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:27,800
that it's much more important. But I do think that sometimes,

864
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,400
like for example, the book I've got from Michael Selofs,

865
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,599
like talking about Buzantine emperors, I don't really think that

866
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,679
there's a libtard that's going to fuck with that translation

867
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,320
as much. So I also I don't think that one's

868
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,199
I think that one's only been translated like twice, so Dune.

869
00:48:46,199 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 5: Okay, So I like. So there's different answers for different

870
00:48:51,199 --> 00:48:54,239
parts of history and different translations. So if you're looking

871
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,559
for things from the Greco Romans a period of about

872
00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:00,880
eighteen fifty to roughly the end of the First World War,

873
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,239
those are by far and away the best of the

874
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,360
Greco Roman translations because they're mostly translated by Brits, and

875
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,400
they're mostly translated by Brits who are learning Greek and

876
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,559
Latin and you know, growing up through school at the time,

877
00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:15,920
which is actually good. So those are really really good

878
00:49:16,039 --> 00:49:22,639
for hard history, like the things we find in loweb classical.

879
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,119
If you're looking at ecclesiastical stuff, like I was saying earlier,

880
00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:29,679
the period from about like sixteen fifty to eighteen hundred,

881
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,159
eighteen fifty. It is in this there's this big debate

882
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,679
in the historiographic community about whether or not you write

883
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,159
that God is continually the first move everything, or humans

884
00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:42,800
have agencies. That era is really good for ecclesiastical history

885
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:45,679
because everyone's arguing over church stuff and so they want

886
00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:49,039
to be very accurate a translations. So like, for example,

887
00:49:49,119 --> 00:49:50,880
the one book I just ran and got I was

888
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:55,679
my translation of Josephis. It's from the sixteen eighties by

889
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,679
Guy William Wiston. So I really like that. If you're

890
00:49:59,679 --> 00:50:03,000
going for hard history, I would stick with the Lady

891
00:50:03,079 --> 00:50:06,800
two hundreds. If you're going for ecclesiastical stuff sixteen fifty

892
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:11,599
to eighteen fifty, and yeah, I mean that's generally what

893
00:50:11,679 --> 00:50:14,079
I stick to. Like Tya said, sometimes you just got

894
00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:16,239
to go online, Like there's no way I'm buying all

895
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,639
twenty some books of Pliny's Natural History until I actually

896
00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:21,360
have the money to do so, or so my wife

897
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:26,320
tells me. But yeah, like, I think that's a good

898
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:32,079
general breakdown. Although there are specific texts like the Odyssey

899
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,519
that I don't have it with me, but there's like

900
00:50:34,559 --> 00:50:37,440
specific authors you could go from, and people are I

901
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:39,920
actually like the Fagel's translation of stuff. But I know

902
00:50:40,039 --> 00:50:42,400
a lot of kind of people in our sphere stray

903
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:43,320
away from those.

904
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:47,599
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about it to really give an

905
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,239
educated opinion. I'm the layman when it comes to this stuff.

906
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:54,679
Speaker 4: Well, guys, it was a ton of fun having you on.

907
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:56,440
I'll have you back on again soon.

908
00:50:56,679 --> 00:50:57,079
Speaker 5: I am.

909
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,159
Speaker 4: Not firing in all cylinders today, just a little out

910
00:51:01,199 --> 00:51:02,639
of the weather. It's a ton of fun to have

911
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:04,920
you guys here. Where can people find you? Where can

912
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:05,679
they find the podcast?

913
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,159
Speaker 2: You can find the podcast on all of your various

914
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:18,639
audio podcatchers, uh, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. Podcast. There's a bunch

915
00:51:18,679 --> 00:51:23,159
of different ones. And if it's not we're gonna make

916
00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:25,920
a Twitter handle for it's duo Salty Salty is the

917
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:28,800
podcast name. We're gonna make a Twitter for it. I'll

918
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:35,800
probably gonna do that today. But you can go follow

919
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,440
Dune on Twitter gimm Our Insights and.

920
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:42,639
Speaker 5: Then what can I follow you on Twitter at.

921
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:45,599
Speaker 2: Don't don't follow me on Twitter? And if you're gonna

922
00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:46,000
follow me on.

923
00:51:46,039 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 5: T Thanks for having us all Jay, good fun.

924
00:51:49,519 --> 00:51:52,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, guys, thank you so much for having for making time,

925
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,000
even with my sub up for scheduling. It's great talking

926
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:56,400
to you. Guys, thanks you talking with you.

927
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: One of.

928
00:52:09,599 --> 00:52:12,639
Speaker 5: What what

929
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 4: What Gary Gary