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We're prohibited 23 00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:59.079 by lack eight team plus terms and conditions apply. 24 00:00:59.200 --> 00:00:59.799 See website for. 25 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:11.480 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.560 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:22.239 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week, 28 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:26.239 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 29 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.280 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 30 00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:33.760 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:47.200 Good Evening. Internationally known legal ethics professor Richard Zitron's work 32 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:49.760 as a trial lawyer placed him on the front lines 33 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:55.280 of fighting systemic racism, pervasive elitism, and injustice against individuals 34 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:58.879 in the legal system. In Trial Lawyer, he shares details 35 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:02.040 of the most compelling case he's encountered and exposes the 36 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:05.200 dilemmas he's faced throughout his one of a kind career. 37 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:09.960 The profound, the consequential, the shocking, the bizarre, and even 38 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:12.879 the humorous. Trial Lawyer brings to life what it means 39 00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:16.319 to represent people against power. From his first case as 40 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:19.560 a young law student on the famous and highly politicized 41 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:23.199 San Quentin sixth case, and throughout his forty year career, 42 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:26.879 Zitron has worked on dozens of cases that underscore the 43 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:30.599 inherent biases of the legal system towards people of color, 44 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:34.360 the poor, the less educated, and those who just don't 45 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.879 appear to fit the mold of whatever society considers normal. 46 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.439 His personal stories about him bring the reader inside the 47 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:45.240 courtroom to experience a unique cast of characters, strange but 48 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:49.039 true facts, brilliant trial tricks and tactics, and not so 49 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:53.000 brilliant ones that failed miserably. Each had its own lessons 50 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:58.560 about social justice, fairness, strategy, ethics, morality and more. The 51 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:01.520 book that we're featuring this evening is Trial Lawyer, A 52 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:05.680 Life representing People Against Power, with my special guest, attorney 53 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:09.039 and author Richard Zitrin. Welcome to the program, and thank 54 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:11.560 you so much for this interview. Richard Zitrin. 55 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:13.800 Thank you for having me, Dan, thank you so much. 56 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:19.039 Very very fascinating story and quite unique for this program. 57 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:22.599 Let's talk about what you write. In the introduction, you 58 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:24.919 said that this is a book of reflections on the 59 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.080 most compelling cases that you have encountered during your life 60 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:31.680 as a trial lawyer. Tell us what most of these 61 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:36.000 cases consist of and what you found about ordinary people 62 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.159 in extraordinary circumstances. 63 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:41.159 Well, Dan, most of the cases I did after the 64 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:44.599 first one that you mentioned, we're ordinary cases that didn't 65 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:47.080 get an awful lot of publicity. Some got some, but 66 00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:51.840 not a lot necessarily, But they had extraordinary features, bizarre 67 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:56.000 things that occur, surprises that occurred in the courtroom, sudden 68 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:00.919 changes in defense, tactics for sudden changes and prosecute, some factics, 69 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:05.520 surprised witnesses, all kinds of unique and unusual things that happen. 70 00:04:05.759 --> 00:04:08.199 And as a storyteller and as someone who's written a 71 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:11.360 few other books, I was encouraged by people to tell 72 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:14.599 my own personal story. So this started out as kind 73 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:17.839 of a memoir about these cases, But as I got 74 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:21.879 more deeply into it, given my background asm with legal 75 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:25.199 ethics professor for forty years, it wound up being a 76 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:29.000 lot about how to deal with disadvantaged people, people who 77 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.240 haven't had a fair shot in the system, and also 78 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:35.079 how to deal with my own sense of my own 79 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:37.079 responsibilities to my clients. 80 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:41.560 You write about that responsibility that it supersedes all others. 81 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:43.680 Explain further, Well, we have what we. 82 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:47.360 Call a fiduciary duty. It's a term that's used mostly 83 00:04:47.480 --> 00:04:50.879 with finance banks and so on, but lawyers have a 84 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:54.120 fiduciary duty to their clients, and it's simply to put 85 00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:56.759 the interests of the clients ahead of their own interests, 86 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:00.720 and that's not necessarily easy to do. Sometimes it's hard 87 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:04.079 to figure out where your own interests stop and the 88 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.759 client's interests begin. But the main thing that I learned 89 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:11.079 from the very first day I was practicing law was 90 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:14.519 that my obligation was to put my client's interests first 91 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:18.639 and try to protect that client before worrying about myself. 92 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:21.839 It's a basic principle of ethical lawyery. 93 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:25.759 You say that it's especially important when it appears that 94 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:29.920 the system is being unfair to a client, doesn't it. 95 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.199 Well, that's true, and my experience has been largely with 96 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:38.079 clients for whom the system did not give them an 97 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:41.240 even break. A lot of times that's because they were poor. 98 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.120 A lot of times they were people of color or 99 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:48.040 other people disadvantaged by the system, or, as I suggested, 100 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.000 people who just don't fit what the society as a 101 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:55.319 whole considers normal or ordinary behavior. And those people have 102 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:58.480 a much tougher row to hoe than the average person 103 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:02.920 who doesn't have those handicap So there's a special responsibility 104 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:06.920 that I felt for many many of my clients along 105 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.680 the way, because they weren't getting the fair shot that 106 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:11.240 other people might get you. 107 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:14.720 Also in this book address when it comes to criminal cases. 108 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:17.800 There have been two questions that you've been asked more 109 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:21.319 than any others. What are those two questions and what 110 00:06:21.639 --> 00:06:23.839 are your answers to those two questions? 111 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:26.839 Well, the first one is how can you represent people 112 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.319 if you know that they're guilty? I think both questions 113 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.759 actually get subsumed and put together in that single question, 114 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.439 how can you represent people if you know that they're guilty? 115 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.439 And the reason is that, of course, everybody is entitled 116 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.879 to defend, and nobody is guilty until really a jury 117 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.360 comes back in and says So there are all kinds 118 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:52.199 of circumstances relating to a case that are extenuating circumstances 119 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:56.040 that explained the situation. So that in one case that 120 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.079 I had very early in my career, man named Elvin 121 00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:02.519 Drummond killed another man, but it was in self defense, 122 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:06.319 so was he guilty. He had committed a homicide, but 123 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:09.360 that's not a crime. He hadn't committed a murder. In 124 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:12.480 the San Quentin sixth case which you mentioned, Dan, the 125 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:18.199 underlying facts inside the lockdown of a major United States 126 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:22.240 prison were so unfathomable that no one could really ascertain 127 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.800 what happened, and to this day, no one really knows 128 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:29.120 what happened. So to assume that somebody is guilty because 129 00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:33.040 they're accused, or maybe even because there's an extraordinary amount 130 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.079 of evidence, only tells part of the story. Now there's 131 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:39.959 another reason here. Our system grew out of the system 132 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.879 that existed in England in the sixteenth and seventeenth century. 133 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:48.000 And at that time they had star chambers in England 134 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:51.759 in which the accused would be told by the judge 135 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:54.519 that even if the jury found them not guilty, the 136 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:58.000 judge was finding them guilty. And in one case, involving 137 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:02.240 William Penn, one of the found Pennsylvania, the jury was 138 00:08:02.360 --> 00:08:04.959 told that if they didn't come back with a guilty verdict, 139 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.879 they too would be thrown in prison. That's not the 140 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:10.600 kind of system we wanted in the United States, and 141 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.800 so to a certain extent, we reacted against that by 142 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.839 creating rights to people who are accused of crimes, so 143 00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:20.160 that nobody is convicted of the crime unless a jury 144 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:21.759 finds that they're guilty. 145 00:08:21.959 --> 00:08:25.160 Well, your extraordinary legal career, and we're talking about in 146 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.199 this book, your first murder case, and you'd only been 147 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.639 a lawyer for three years. So tell us how you 148 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:33.600 came to be working with David Mayer, and how you 149 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.720 came to represent Johnny Spain, and how you came to 150 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:38.759 work on the San Quentin sixth case. 151 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:42.360 I had come out to San Francisco to do my 152 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:44.759 third year of law school, and I have been out 153 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:48.120 here a week when a friend of mine told me 154 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:50.279 that he had just turned down a job with a 155 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:55.360 fellow named David Mayer working a highly publicized sixth murder 156 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:59.679 case in San Quentin State Prison. And he recommended that 157 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.159 I go up an interview with David, and he and 158 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:05.320 I hit it off, and David hired me on the 159 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.159 spot to be a law clerk on the case. I 160 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:11.440 was paid five dollars an hour by the Marin County 161 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:15.840 Superior Court, since the county which San Quentin is located. 162 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:19.360 Of course, five dollars an hour was more then than 163 00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:21.960 it is now, but it still wasn't very much money. 164 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.279 David turned out to be a great mentor, a very 165 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:31.639 very dedicated lawyer, former defense, a former prosecutor down in 166 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:34.919 southern California who had gone into the Air Force and 167 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.519 seen the difficulty that accused people had of getting a 168 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.039 fair shake in their court rooms in court martials, and 169 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.320 it kind of revolutionized him and turned him into a 170 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.440 defense lawyer. When he got out of the Air Force, 171 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:52.440 instead of going back to the DA's office, he decided 172 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.279 to come up to northern California and start defending people, 173 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.679 including a lot of people in San Quentin State Prison. 174 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:04.080 Based on that, he got a reputation, and so people 175 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:07.320 that were in prison were talking and so they're one 176 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:11.320 of the defendants asked for him to be appointed his lawyer. 177 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:13.279 What happened in that regard, Yes, he. 178 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:17.960 Had gotten a reputation for doing a great job representing prisoners. 179 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:21.320 One of the San Quentin six named Willie Tate, reached 180 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.440 out to David and said, I'd like to have you 181 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:27.159 appointed to represent me in this case. And David presented 182 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:30.120 that request to the judge in the case, whose name 183 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:33.200 was Henry Broderick. Broderick was not very fond of the 184 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:38.000 San Quentin sixth defendants. He saw them as guilty people. 185 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:42.120 He also frankly saw them as six people of color 186 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:46.120 who were not common in his own personal experience, and 187 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.519 so he pulled a fast one on David and appointed him, 188 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:54.559 but not to represent Willie Tate instead to represent Johnny Spain, 189 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:57.879 who was the only member of the Black Panther Party 190 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:02.360 among the six defendants that got Johnny and David off 191 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:05.639 to the wrong foot, a situation that had been created 192 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.639 frankly by the trial genants. 193 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:11.080 So he was assigned this case or appointed this case. 194 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.039 It was far more difficult with what the judge and 195 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:18.720 prosecutor felt was the most guilty of the sixth defendants. 196 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:23.559 Well, Johnny was the one most closely associated with George Jackson, 197 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.200 who was a leader of the Black Panther Party and 198 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:32.000 was killed himself on the day in which the San 199 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:35.720 Quan sixth violence occurred. And there was a history to 200 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.039 that violence that I can explain briefly if you would 201 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:43.600 like me to. Absolutely started in early nineteen seventy, George 202 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.840 Jackson had been a sent to Salidad Prison, where he 203 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.600 came under the tutelage of an inmate named W. L. Nolan, 204 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:57.559 who was one of the founders of radical black prison groups. 205 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:02.399 One day in January of nineteen seventy, a guard shot 206 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:06.600 into the yard at Solidad Prison, which is down near Monterey, 207 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:10.879 and killed three black inmates. And when the grand jury 208 00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:16.480 examined the situation. They exonerated the guard from all three shootings. 209 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:20.720 About two weeks later, a guard was thrown from the 210 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:25.840 tier tiers or the stories of the cells that exist 211 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.559 the usually three or four or five tiers that are 212 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:32.399 like apartment floors, was thrown from the third floor tier 213 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:36.200 into the yard and was killed, and Jackson and two 214 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:40.639 other people were accused of killing that guard in retribution 215 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.399 for the killing of Nolan. Those three became known as 216 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:49.279 the Salidad Brothers. After that time, Jackson was sent to 217 00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:54.120 San Quentin and eventually the events of August twenty first, 218 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.200 nineteen seventy one occurred, which Jackson was killed by guards 219 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:03.240 and five other people in the interim. In August of 220 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:07.720 nineteen seventy after the accusation against Jackson and the other 221 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:12.639 two Salidad brothers, Jackson's seventeen year old brother invaded the 222 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:17.759 Marin County courthouse, went into a courtroom with guns, kidnapped 223 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:22.039 a judge and a district attorney, and left and outside 224 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.320 the courtroom when they got into their car, there was 225 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:29.039 a shootout. Three of the invaders were killed, including purege, 226 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:33.799 Jackson's brother Jonathan, and the judge was also killed. So 227 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:39.120 this created an atmosphere of extraordinary fear and concern in 228 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:44.240 the community, both law enforcement community and also the African 229 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:48.480 American community and the other communities of color in and 230 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.279 around San Quentin State Prison. And it was in that 231 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:55.600 environment that a year later the San Quentin sixth case 232 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.000 arose and six people were killed. 233 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:00.759 You're right that there's a little more involved too, because 234 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:05.559 the gun that Jonathan used Jackson used was found to 235 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:09.080 be purchased by Angela Davis, who had been fired from 236 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:13.240 UCLA but for being a communist, then was reinstated, then 237 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:17.960 refired for inflammatory language such as calling cops pigs, and 238 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:21.799 so a couple months after this incident, Angela Davis was 239 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:23.639 charged with murder, wasn't she? 240 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.200 That's right? And Angela Davis by that time had already 241 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:31.320 become extremely well known because of her outspoken statements at 242 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.480 both Berkeley and then later on at UCLA, And she 243 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:38.360 had been terminated by UCLA, which was then reversed by 244 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.159 the courts. So she was already very well known. And 245 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:44.879 when it was found that the guns were supposedly purchased 246 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:49.039 by Angela Davis, this was a front page event. She 247 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.279 was accused of murder along with one prisoner who was 248 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.159 in that car where people died, who survived, and she 249 00:14:56.360 --> 00:14:59.360 became a fugitive for a period of time. She was 250 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:04.200 soon and quite soon thereafter put on trial and was 251 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:05.879 acquitted of all charges. 252 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:09.519 Let's get back to working with David Mayer on this 253 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.960 case and this all the lessons that you did learn, 254 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:15.600 all the work that you did do on their behalf, well. 255 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.759 I've got to tell you, Dan, maybe the most single, 256 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:23.440 most extraordinary day I had in the law was the 257 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:25.919 day I first went out to San Quentin to meet 258 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.919 Johnny Spain. I had no idea what to expect. I 259 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.360 had never been in a prison before. I think I 260 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.000 had only been into jail once or twice, and the 261 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.600 security of the prison was extraordinarily high in light of 262 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:43.519 these homicides. We were brought into a tiny little visiting 263 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.519 room that was about the size of two phone booths 264 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:51.480 back to back. Separating us was a plastic shield impenetrable 265 00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:54.799 field that went all the way down to about two 266 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:59.399 inches above a little narrow table. Johnny sat on one 267 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.480 side of this and we sat on the other, and 268 00:16:02.600 --> 00:16:05.440 you couldn't even hear clearly. The sound was muffled by 269 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:11.200 the thick plastic an extraordinary thing happened. David extended his fingers, 270 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.840 the tips of his fingers under the metal grid that 271 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.080 was at the bottom of the plastic, and Johnny extended 272 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:21.960 his fingers and they shook hands by shaking their fingers 273 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.080 together with each other. That was the only way of 274 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:27.840 doing it. And then I did the same thing. It 275 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:31.759 was really extraordinary thing that there was such a separation 276 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.120 between our ability to connect with our clients in a 277 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:39.279 meaningful way. While we were in those rooms, we frequently 278 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:42.200 didn't talk because there was a sand point and guard 279 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.279 sitting two feet behind Johnny listening to everything we said it. 280 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.600 So we would often take ballpoint pens and scribble what 281 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:52.360 we were saying to the person we were talking to, 282 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.080 pass the note in the little space between the partition 283 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.639 and the table, and once the note had been read, 284 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.200 we'd take the note back and scribble over. It would 285 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.279 depend in circular emotions and no one could possibly read it. 286 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:08.240 It was the only way we felt we could have 287 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.880 a confidential communication with our own client. And to me, 288 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:16.640 being a kind of white suburban kid from a relatively 289 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:20.599 privileged background, it was just such an eye opener. I 290 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:21.720 think I was in shop. 291 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.519 You're right, that also you were It was like an 292 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.799 otherworldly experience when you say that, the extent of the 293 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.240 animosity towards the defense team. 294 00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:32.839 Oh, yes, We would get there at nine o'clock in 295 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.640 the morning and put in a visiting slip for Johnny. Now, 296 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.359 these guys were all locked down in a place called 297 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.640 the Adjustment Center, which was the most highly secure area 298 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:46.680 at that time, the most highly secure California prison, sam Quentin. 299 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.279 They were locked down for at least twenty three and 300 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.160 a half hours a day, and sometimes for more than that. 301 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.599 They got showers only two days a week. They had 302 00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:59.440 no ability to visit anybody other than their legal team. 303 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.880 And we were told, nevertheless, when we got there at 304 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.960 nine o'clock and asked to be able to visit with him, 305 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:09.920 that for one reason or another, there was no escort 306 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.359 to bring him too the visiting room, or he was 307 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.920 busy doing something else, or he was taking a shower, 308 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:20.119 or there was no availability of crew at the adjustment 309 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:22.880 center to bring him over to where we were. And 310 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:26.519 sometimes we waited for three or four hours, cooling our 311 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:29.200 heels in the visiting room before we even got to 312 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.920 see it. That was pretty typical the animosity that we 313 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:38.000 received was palpable. It's beyond my belief to even consider 314 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:40.960 the animosity that the sixth defendants were facing. 315 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.079 You're right that you began everything with to learn all 316 00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.200 the relevant facts by reading transcripts from the first court 317 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.960 appearances in nineteen seventy one, and also that you've learned 318 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.680 of the prosecution's theory of what they believe had happened 319 00:18:57.079 --> 00:18:58.799 and the charges subsequently. 320 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:01.519 Right, Well, there was an indictment. It was three hundred 321 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:04.880 and sixty eight pages long, and it described the narrative 322 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:09.240 of what supposedly happened, and then there were transcripts at 323 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:12.759 the first couple of hearings, after which the case was 324 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:16.279 suspended or stayed by the appellate courts, and it was 325 00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:20.599 stayed until from October of nineteen seventy one until just 326 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.480 before I arrived on the scene in June of nineteen 327 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:28.119 seventy three. The transcript of the grand jury presented a 328 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:32.680 very convoluted and somewhat unbelievable theory. And the theory was this, 329 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:37.400 a white lawyer from a privileged background, in fact, from 330 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:42.519 a family of Connecticut senators and congresspeople and stuff like that, 331 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:47.880 named Stephen Bingham, supposedly put a Spanish World War two 332 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:52.480 gun called an astra into a small tape recorder that 333 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.079 he brought inside San Quentin Prison to visit Johnny Spain, 334 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:01.920 to visit George Jackson. Supposedly, according to the prosecution, somehow 335 00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.000 the gun got transmitted to Jackson in the visiting room, 336 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:09.880 and Jackson supposedly hit the gun under a wig that 337 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:13.160 he was wearing, and after a wig that he was wearing, 338 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:17.000 and took it with two clips that would be inserted 339 00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:21.920 into the gun back to the adjustment center after the interview, 340 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.839 and when he entered the adjustment center, according to the 341 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:28.839 prosecution's case, the guards looked at him. Most of them 342 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:33.880 didn't see anything wrong. One ran his fingers through Jackson's 343 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.400 wig and didn't see anything. When all of a sudden, 344 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.920 again according to the guards, he pulled out the gun, 345 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:44.240 pulled off the wig with one hand, pulled out the 346 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.079 gun with his second hand, and with what appeared to 347 00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:51.039 be his third hand, according to logical movement common sense, 348 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:55.279 placed the clip inside the gun and said, this is it. 349 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:59.559 The dragon has come REDI and we analyzed it and 350 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.240 looked at all the testimony from everybody who testified at 351 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.759 the grand jury, and This just didn't make a hell 352 00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:08.720 of a lot of sense, and it seemed possible that 353 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.119 the events could have occurred in the way that was 354 00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.000 being described by the prison, and there was a great 355 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:18.960 feeling among the sixth defendants that also, I must say 356 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:23.880 many and most of the lawyers soon agreed with that 357 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:28.359 the prison had set up George Jackson in light of 358 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.799 the Solidad case in which he was accused of murdering 359 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.799 the guard and was thrown from the tier, and that 360 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.759 the idea behind this event was to kill George Jackson 361 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:43.400 in a fake attempt by George Jackson to escape from 362 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.440 the adjustment sentence, and that what happened was that it 363 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:47.200 got out of hand. 364 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:52.640 You're right that he's charged with conspiracy without them specifying 365 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.599 who was actually murdered and who was actually all involved 366 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:58.160 in the conspiracy to murder. 367 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.000 Well, one of the things that I've focused on very 368 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.559 early on in the cases, I was put in charge 369 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:08.279 doing a motion to dismiss the indictment because we couldn't 370 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:13.480 tell who Johnny Spain was in conspiracy with, that these 371 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:19.480 six were conspiring with people or person or persons unknown. 372 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.559 How do you defend somebody if they're conspiring with people, 373 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.279 and they're not telling you who the people are. So 374 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:28.759 our argument was we were not put on notice of 375 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:31.480 what their case was really about. They were saying, these 376 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:35.119 six people did various bad things, or maybe they didn't 377 00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.599 do them themselves, but other people with whom they were 378 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.799 conspiring may have killed the five people who were to 379 00:22:42.920 --> 00:22:46.240 kill that day in San Quentin, other than George Jackson. 380 00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:49.720 But they weren't telling us who the people were. So 381 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:54.200 our question was put in Layman's terms, this, how the 382 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.440 hell can we defend Johnny Spain if he's accused of 383 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:00.720 conspiring with a killer and they're not telling us who 384 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:03.160 they think the killer is. And yet that's the way 385 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.359 the Caps ultimately went to Trump, can. 386 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.599 You explain the de mirror and its role. 387 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:12.160 What we did with the information that we had is 388 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.680 we filed what's called a demur which is a legal 389 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:20.279 creed cleaning that attacks the indictment itself, and the demurr 390 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:24.319 was based on this. You have not provided us notice 391 00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:29.119 in this indictment of how we can possibly defend the 392 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:32.480 case by not telling us who the co conspirators are. 393 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:35.240 You're not giving us notice in a way that makes 394 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.920 it fair for us to be able to defend our 395 00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:41.160 clients in this case Johnny's spain. But it was true 396 00:23:41.319 --> 00:23:44.000 of all six of the clients. And this was really 397 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.920 a great lesson to me about unfairness. I had grown 398 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.640 up with unfairness. I had grown up seeing and understanding 399 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.640 something about the unfairness that people of color faced, the 400 00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:01.720 racism that black people faced, the harder road it was 401 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:05.680