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Speaker 5: Good Afternoon. In nineteen sixty four, a banned motorcyclist mysteriously
Speaker 5: appeared in Milwaukee. Over the course of the next decade,
Speaker 5: the Outlaws Motorcycle Club LUB became synonymous with acts of
Speaker 5: intimidation and violence in the ruthless world of renegade bikers.
Speaker 5: The omc's Milwaukee chapter became known as the Wrecking Crew.
Speaker 5: You Gotta Be Dirty. The Outlaws Motorcycle Club In and
Speaker 5: Around Wisconsin examines the evolution of outlaw motorcycle clubs in
Speaker 5: the United States from nineteen forty seven to the early
Speaker 5: nineteen sixties, the influence of rogue riders, the one percent
Speaker 5: of motorcyclists living outside the law spread from the West
Speaker 5: coast and into America's heartland. In Wisconsin, investigators link members
Speaker 5: of the Outlaws to at least eleven murders. Four of
Speaker 5: the innocent persons killed where women, and two were elderly.
Speaker 5: Three children also boss their lives. A fifteen year old
Speaker 5: boy was killed by an explosive device, an infant perished
Speaker 5: in an arson fire, and a ten year old boy
Speaker 5: was executed vis a vis a gunshot to the head.
Speaker 5: During a tumultuous nineteen nineties, the Outlaws orchestrated a guerrilla
Speaker 5: style offensive in a quest to beat backed expansion of
Speaker 5: the world's largest one percent motorcycle club, the Hell's Angels.
Speaker 5: During this period, the Hell's Angels began courting the Hell's
Speaker 5: Henchman Motorcycle Club, a group with chapters in Chicago, Rockford,
Speaker 5: and South Bend, Indiana. The Hell's Angel's bold move into
Speaker 5: northern Illinois touched off a seven year conflict that was
Speaker 5: exacerbated by beatings, bombings, and shootings. As a former outlaw
Speaker 5: biker investigator, author and retired Milwaukee Police Department detective Larry
Speaker 5: Powolitz wrote, I participated in the investigations of several of
Speaker 5: the incidents documented in this well research book. This history
Speaker 5: of the Outlaws motorcycle Club shines a bright light on
Speaker 5: the one percent motorcycle club subculture. The book that we're
Speaker 5: featuring this afternoon is You Gotta Be Dirty The Outlaws
Speaker 5: Motorcycle Club in and around Wisconsin, with my special guest,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Michael Grogan. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 5: thank you very much for agreeing this interview.
Speaker 6: Michael Grogan, thanks for having me on and Dan I
Speaker 6: appreciate that talking about the book with your listeners.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. This is a fascinating book about
Speaker 5: a very very interesting organization, to say the least. What
Speaker 5: brought you?
Speaker 6: Sorry, go ahead, I spent about two and a half
Speaker 6: years accumulating the information to write the book, which is
Speaker 6: that extension of my master's thesis.
Speaker 5: So that's what brought you to this book. But why
Speaker 5: did you want to do this? What was the impetus
Speaker 5: for you wanting to do You Got to Be Dirty?
Speaker 5: Other than your master's thesis? What are you from this area?
Speaker 5: Tell us why this was important to you and the
Speaker 5: Outlaws in Wisconsin was important to you to write?
Speaker 6: Well, I grew up in southeastern Wisconsin, anybody who grows
Speaker 6: up in this area is familiar with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club.
Speaker 6: We've seen him at church festivals, at fitnicks, at races,
Speaker 6: and so although I saw the group around, I wasn't
Speaker 6: particularly that knowledge of what some of the things that
Speaker 6: happened in the sixties and seventies and eighties with the club.
Speaker 6: When I was looking for a topic to write my
Speaker 6: master's thesis, that I was actually exploring hostile riots a
Speaker 6: racial riot that happened in Milwaukee in the mid to
Speaker 6: late nineteen sixties, and I interviewed the detective who's actually
Speaker 6: participated in the law enforcement during that riot, and he
Speaker 6: told me about the Outlaw's Motorcycle Club about how really
Speaker 6: there's never been a comprehensive history about the club written
Speaker 6: about this group in south eastern Wisconsin. He had several
Speaker 6: boxes of information about the club and a lot of
Speaker 6: institutional knowledge, and so as I began looking into his
Speaker 6: information other information, I thought I'd make an excellent topic.
Speaker 6: One of the things now in history circles is team
Speaker 6: for groups who have been underrepresented throughout history, and so
Speaker 6: traditional history might look at diplomats and governments and politics.
Speaker 6: A lot of trends in the history right now look
Speaker 6: at groups that are called cultural histories, and certainly the
Speaker 6: one percent subculture is such a group. And nobody really
Speaker 6: in historical circles has written much both. I found one
Speaker 6: other historian, doctor Randy mbat Texas Tech, we had written
Speaker 6: something about the outlaw motorcycle gained subculture. But in Wisconsin,
Speaker 6: in the Midwest, really no other historian has really exported
Speaker 6: the club. Now you open with this, and maybe you
Speaker 6: can tell us, as you're do in the book, the
Speaker 6: importance of Milwaukee for our Internet national listeners in terms
Speaker 6: of Harley Davidson Milwaukee one percent clubs and Wisconsin in
Speaker 6: terms of one percent bike clubs. Before we talk about
Speaker 6: as you do in the introduction where you have we
Speaker 6: open up the with the the very much action packed courthouse,
Speaker 6: Milwaukee courthouse where we have Todd Liifker that's on the
Speaker 6: witness stand and talking about cover and concealment. So first
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about Milwaukee, as you do,
Speaker 6: and before we talk about Todd Lifeger and a witness
Speaker 6: at a Milwaukee courthouse. And this is how you open.
Speaker 6: You've got to be dirty, sure, Milwaukee, Milwaukee, Harley Davison
Speaker 6: has made Milwaukee at Outlaw motorcycle clubs, which are the
Speaker 6: one percent motorcyclists that live outside the law. Their by
Speaker 6: laws require them to have an American made motorcycle or
Speaker 6: a BMW. They're not allowed to have any Japanese bikes
Speaker 6: or any other foreign type of bikes. Most the pride
Speaker 6: and joy of these clubs obviously part of the Harley
Speaker 6: Davidson subculture, and people are not familiar with Milwaukee. Harley
Speaker 6: Davidson was started in Milwaukee in nineteen oh three. Nineteen eighties,
Speaker 6: had ran into some financial problems and was bailed out
Speaker 6: by President Reagan. And since the nineteen eighties the company
Speaker 6: has really flourished and become the pride and joy of
Speaker 6: the Milwaukee area. So in nineteen sixty four when when
Speaker 6: our club we had Milwaukee was called the Milwaukee Gypsy Outlaws,
Speaker 6: and they had a co chat from Louisville, Kentucky called
Speaker 6: the Louisville Gypsy Outlaws. In August nineteen sixty four, they
Speaker 6: went to Springfield, Illinois for a race. They had a
Speaker 6: meeting with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club in Chicago, and the
Speaker 6: three groups merged to form the Outlaws Nation which was
Speaker 6: initially three clubs and as such the Outlaws Motorcycle Club
Speaker 6: had got a foothold. And then Milwaukee, which is the
Speaker 6: home of Harley Davidson.
Speaker 5: Now we talk about todd lifeker and as I mentioned,
Speaker 5: he's a witness. You opened the book with the men
Speaker 5: being a witness at a Milwaukee courthouse and you say
Speaker 5: that he says on the stand, we were never killers
Speaker 5: before we joined the Outlaws Motorcycle Club. And he talked
Speaker 5: about the moral code of the Outlaw biker. He testified,
Speaker 5: and so tell us what he testifies to, what does
Speaker 5: he talk about, and what does he testify to about
Speaker 5: the Outlaws Motorcycle Club, explaining very much so the title.
Speaker 6: Of your book, Well, Todd was really a two bit
Speaker 6: burglar and a criminal fence his person he ran with
Speaker 6: his name Harvey r V. Powers, who was a prospect,
Speaker 6: a probate and eventually a member of the Outlaws Motorcycle Club.
Speaker 6: The RV and Harvey's moniker name stance are really violent.
Speaker 5: And so what Tod and.
Speaker 6: Harvey were doing where they were selling drugs and their
Speaker 6: trafficking stolen motorcycle parts. Specifically, Todd was more or less
Speaker 6: doing that and one instance, life for actually burglarized the
Speaker 6: police headquarters where evidence was stored to steal the evidence
Speaker 6: the crime he committed from the evidence locker. Another instance,
Speaker 6: Powers told Life occurred that Lifeer was trafficking drugs and
Speaker 6: old another man ten thousand dollars, and Powers offered to
Speaker 6: have the Outlaws committed hit against the guy and kill him.
Speaker 6: That was too much for Toddy said, I'd rather deal
Speaker 6: with the guy. But what that indicated to me into
Speaker 6: the court was that how the all Laws would take
Speaker 6: care of their friends, They would cover for him and
Speaker 6: conceal the evidence in the criminal justice system for them.
Speaker 5: Right now, you talk about it. Also in nineteen ninety
Speaker 5: six nineteen Party Meet nineteen sixty six, the original founder
Speaker 5: of the Outlaws Motorcycle Club Milwaukee Chapter job John Bissonis,
Speaker 5: explained the rule of the club to the press as
Speaker 5: you've got to be dirty. And you also talk about
Speaker 5: two really important matters at that time, the government's response
Speaker 5: to the Outlaws and their appearance in southwestern Wisconsin. So
Speaker 5: tell us what the initial response was by everyone, including
Speaker 5: law enforcement, to the Outlaws coming into Wisconsin having a presence.
Speaker 6: Well, in order to look at this, you need to
Speaker 6: put things in their context in the nineteen sixties, which
Speaker 6: was the era of Vietnam and the era of the
Speaker 6: new left rise up in the United States, and so
Speaker 6: the Milwaukee Police Department, in conjunction with the FBI and
Speaker 6: the FDAD a program called co Intel Pro, which was
Speaker 6: their coverer intelligence program. In the Milwaukee Police Department, men's
Speaker 6: had a group called the Special Assignment Squad, which was
Speaker 6: in effect, the Milwaukee Police Department's version of co Intel Pro.
Speaker 6: It basically kept an eye on subversion groups or groups
Speaker 6: that were had coast and notional groups like that. So
Speaker 6: when the Outlaws came onto the scene in the early
Speaker 6: nineteen sixties, the head of the Special Assignment Squad didn't
Speaker 6: really view the Outlaws as fitting into the category that
Speaker 6: merited surveillance based on the guidelines of a Special Assignment Squad.
Speaker 6: They viewed the Outlaws more or less as facilitator as
Speaker 6: a public disorder. They were kind of viewed as pro
Speaker 6: military veteran rowdy type of groups, and they believe the
Speaker 6: best way to keep an eye on them, but they
Speaker 6: have group, a tactical squad it was being formed at
Speaker 6: the time, keep tabs in the club and suppress their
Speaker 6: criminal activities. And that's well from the Milwaukee Police Department's perspective,
Speaker 6: that's kind of the way they've moderned the club from
Speaker 6: their inception in nineteen sixty four until about nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 6: and then things change.
Speaker 5: Now you say that one event in particular really changed
Speaker 5: the game or a game changer in terms of a
Speaker 5: paper boy was killed by an explosive device for an
Speaker 5: outlaw rival. When was that? And tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit more about what happened in this incident.
Speaker 6: Well, in the in the early nineteen seventies, the Outlaws
Speaker 6: learned to process of consolidating their power with other one
Speaker 6: percent clubs in the state. The words ere becoming the
Speaker 6: state's premier one percent motorcycle club. And in essence they
Speaker 6: had their way and the Saints and the Savage Seven
Speaker 6: they pretty much dropped their patch some members which joined
Speaker 6: the Outlaws, otherwise the clubs to be disbanded. But one
Speaker 6: motorcycle group in particular that happen as Devils refused to
Speaker 6: cave in. Now, if you look at the culture of
Speaker 6: the all motorcycle clubs, similar to street gangs, they have
Speaker 6: colors and the Outlaws colors are black and white. And
Speaker 6: the colors of the Outlaw's major arrival, the Hell's Angels
Speaker 6: are red and white. Well, the Heavens Devils wore a
Speaker 6: red and white patch if you look at their name,
Speaker 6: obviously it's in typical to that to the Fellows Angels.
Speaker 6: So the Outlaws were always skeptical that the Heavens Devils
Speaker 6: might be really the forerunner for the Hell's Angels movement
Speaker 6: into Wisconsin. And in the nineteen seventies, the Outlaws continued
Speaker 6: to target the Heavens Devils. The Heavens Doubles Devils refused
Speaker 6: to drop their patch, and finally, one day the Outlaws
Speaker 6: did a home invasion armed robbery on four Heavens Devil's
Speaker 6: members and took their club colors and robbed them a
Speaker 6: small amount of money. Well, in the one percent subculture,
Speaker 6: you're never supposed to go to the police to solve
Speaker 6: issue those is, they're supposed to be involved between members
Speaker 6: of the clubs. But the Heavens Devils decided the Great President.
Speaker 6: They caught Milwaukee Police Department two members of the out
Speaker 6: Laws arrested for invasion, armed robbery, UH and indition from
Speaker 6: while their trials were trial was waiting for her the
Speaker 6: Yellows retaliated against Seven's doubles. There was one night where
Speaker 6: they had took a fireboxing some guy's window, if shotgun
Speaker 6: blast another man's window, and then a four or five
Speaker 6: ten Zimbles were targeted and still the devils remained at it.
Speaker 6: They weren't going to drop their past. And the case
Speaker 6: proceeded the trial and then on in September, the two
Speaker 6: members of the Alls were found guilty and moving pre
Speaker 6: committments the prison sentences. Two months later, on November fifth,
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy four, Pick Boy looked ants. He's a fifteen
Speaker 6: years boy, went to Wilbregs in your high school. He
Speaker 6: was doing it brought about six o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 6: your eighty third and keith A, Milwaukee's near west side,
Speaker 6: the nice blue collar area at the time. And as
Speaker 6: he's walking this route, he sees a package wrapped as
Speaker 6: a Christmas gift on top of an old mobile and
Speaker 6: initially he thinks that, you know, somebody might have forgot
Speaker 6: the package on top of the homeowner and walked into
Speaker 6: the home. So apparently he was going to pick up
Speaker 6: the package to put it on the steps when he
Speaker 6: picked it up and exploded the box was filled with
Speaker 6: TNT and spent welding rods, and it was a devastating blast.
Speaker 6: From the detectives that I talked to there were at
Speaker 6: the scene, they said that these were hardcore detectives, crusty
Speaker 6: law enforcement people, investigatives, the most serious crimes of Milwaukee.
Speaker 6: And they said it was the worst crime scene they've
Speaker 6: ever seen that when they got there from the blast
Speaker 6: and blowing the socket out of his eye and seared
Speaker 6: his face to the point where it was still burning
Speaker 6: when they arrived in the crime scene and he was
Speaker 6: killed instantaneously, over two hundred runs.
Speaker 3: To his body.
Speaker 6: And you know, this is a really gruesome scene. You
Speaker 6: can imagine that the scene covered a couple of blocks.
Speaker 6: One of the detectives interviewed interviewed. His name is Roger
Speaker 6: Hinton Tuler. He said he and his partner were doing
Speaker 6: the canvas of a home a block to the east
Speaker 6: and the blast, and he noticed something strange sitting on
Speaker 6: top of a bush hedge, and his partner stepped up
Speaker 6: the steps to get a look and it was one
Speaker 6: of the paper boy's fingers. It flew over a block
Speaker 6: away the blast. This blast changed everything because now from
Speaker 6: that point on the Milwaukee Police Department's command staff no
Speaker 6: longer looked like looked at the outlaws is simply facilitators
Speaker 6: of public disorder. Looked at them as organized crime, and
Speaker 6: they were very violent, threatened the safety of all Milwaukeeans.
Speaker 6: You can imagine it's like the mafia. The mafia is
Speaker 6: more like blood in and blood out, the posts and ostrum.
Speaker 6: They don't typically bother you unless they have an issue
Speaker 6: with you. Well, when a little kid, paper boy gets
Speaker 6: blown up by a bomb, the entire city obviously is
Speaker 6: fearful that this type of violence. Now, there's going to
Speaker 6: be a lot of collateral damage during this spewed and
Speaker 6: the Milwaukee Police firm really wretched it up the pressure
Speaker 6: at that time and it kind of changed the whole
Speaker 6: dynamic between the police department and the club.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about this that this grizzly murder made
Speaker 5: law enforcement apply more pressure and as members of law
Speaker 5: enforcement found themselves subject to threats and acts of violence,
Speaker 5: and you say some of the rank and file police
Speaker 5: sometimes operated outside the law. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about that.
Speaker 6: Well, all of it, the police response was a response
Speaker 6: to what the aut laws were doing. I talked to
Speaker 6: one police officer who said that he worked he as
Speaker 6: a high profile detective. He just made detective. It was
Speaker 6: in the mid eighties, and he talked to one of
Speaker 6: the lieutenants that investigate the outlaws. He was the lieutenant
Speaker 6: was fearful that the all Laws are going to start
Speaker 6: killing police officers, and he told him. An instance were
Speaker 6: at three o'clock in the morning one morning. This lieutenant
Speaker 6: lived in an area by the airport. It was on
Speaker 6: a side street thirty ply residential area. This door rings
Speaker 6: at three am. Stoorboll rings. He's off duty. He goes
Speaker 6: to the door. It's a member of the aut Laws.
Speaker 6: He said that he was simply lost and was looking
Speaker 6: for directions. Another instance, detectives from the Violent Crimes Division
Speaker 6: of the Criminal Investigation Brew in the Milwaukee Police Department.
Speaker 6: They're having a picnic in a well known park in Milwaukee,
Speaker 6: and they notice that the allt Laws are there, taking
Speaker 6: on their license plates and conducting surveillance of them and
Speaker 6: their families. So these officers felt that the all Laws
Speaker 6: were obviously trying to intimidate them. So that was one instance.
Speaker 6: But another instance is the all Laws were getting very
Speaker 6: brazen at one point and in the mid seventies. Nineteen
Speaker 6: seventy five, off to the Milwaukee officers at a tavern
Speaker 6: kind of a great part of Milwaukee. Apparently some members
Speaker 6: of the out Laws are there. They exchange insults, and
Speaker 6: as the officer leaves, the outlaws follow them. They bump
Speaker 6: the back of his car. When the officer gets out,
Speaker 6: the outlaws beat the officers so bad they break his
Speaker 6: jaw and break his eye socket. When the officer gets
Speaker 6: back in the car and follows the outlaws and right
Speaker 6: outside one of the Milwaukee's police districts on the south side,
Speaker 6: off to the officer forces the Outlaws of ban off
Speaker 6: the road, and one of the on duty officers that
Speaker 6: the station comes over assis the police officer effect the
Speaker 6: arrest to the outlaws. The police chief of Milwaukee the time,
Speaker 6: his name was Harold Harold Brier, and Milwaukee either you
Speaker 6: love him or you hate him. If you love a
Speaker 6: law and order, you love Harold Brier. If you're a
Speaker 6: member of the counterculture, you didn't like him. Well, Briar
Speaker 6: was smart enough to now. But this time though, the
Speaker 6: Outlaws were up to This is after the ans Dead bombing,
Speaker 6: so he actually assigned an officer who watched the home
Speaker 6: of the officer who was beaten to make sure the
Speaker 6: outlaws didn't retaliate. And her name was Susan Ordell. She's
Speaker 6: a twenty three year old relatively new police officer. Now
Speaker 6: she was guarding Bartlett's house. The officer who was beaten
Speaker 6: by the outlaws on the South Side. A man came by,
Speaker 6: shot her squad car twice, almost killed her. She exited
Speaker 6: the squad pursued the man who shot her, but the
Speaker 6: man got into a vehicle and speed off. In the interim,
Speaker 6: another law enforcement officer, Earls of Belle, lieutenant in the
Speaker 6: Suburban department, had information at the allwayers are planning up.
Speaker 6: I'm blowing outlaws are planning I'm blowing up a police station.
Speaker 6: And so all this stuff was heating up. As the
Speaker 6: police ratched up the pressure to investigate the handstip murder,
Speaker 6: the out laws were also ratching up the pressure. And
Speaker 6: then in about a year and a half a year later,
Speaker 6: you could see all these problems coming to the forefront.
Speaker 6: The outlaws were at a strip club on Milwaukee's West
Speaker 6: Side and had a confrontation with three other men and
Speaker 6: a large contingent of police officers responded, including a tactical
Speaker 6: enforcement unit which was used that kit tabs on the outlaws,
Speaker 6: and when they got there, they arrested three members of
Speaker 6: the outlaws. One of them's name was Roger Lyons, and
Speaker 6: Roger Lyons was involved in a relatively minor scuffle, but
Speaker 6: he did fight with the police. Some witnesses said they
Speaker 6: saw a police officers swinging their batons. He was later
Speaker 6: conveyed out to a patrol wagon and taken to a
Speaker 6: district station where he appeared non responsive and was rushed
Speaker 6: to the high and died in police custody more or less.
Speaker 6: And so you can see how all these effects, the
Speaker 6: causal effect of them re action up the pressure and
Speaker 6: the out laws refusal to give in, in fact wanting
Speaker 6: to intimidate the investigators to back off concerning to ansset
Speaker 6: investigation caused the police to operate in the periphery, and
Speaker 6: that you can argue the out laws will argue that
Speaker 6: they actually killed Roger Lyons, but they held an inquest.
Speaker 6: There was a struggle before the police got there, and
Speaker 6: the inquest try determined that they could not identify who
Speaker 6: actually killed Lions. But the DA said that if it
Speaker 6: was a citizen who killed them, the citizen committed homicide
Speaker 6: if it was a police officer killed them, and the
Speaker 6: police to use successive force, but to this date it's
Speaker 6: never been to prove it. But he did die of
Speaker 6: head trauma.
Speaker 5: Now you say, at the same time though that, and
Speaker 5: this is the sixties and the seventies and it continued
Speaker 5: for quite a while. Was that at the same time
Speaker 5: the police were being threatened and maybe even resorting to
Speaker 5: the same kind of tactics as the outlaws in fear
Speaker 5: that there was Lenian sentences low bails and we're talking
Speaker 5: Lenian sentences. So what was the judicial response while the
Speaker 5: police had one response? What was was a judicial response different?
Speaker 5: And why do you think that was?
Speaker 6: Well, the Aull laws had a really good attorney. His
Speaker 6: name was Alan Eisenberg, and Alan Eisenberg a lot of
Speaker 6: people in the Milwaukee County courthouse, but consider him a
Speaker 6: gad fly. He was very flashy or Fedora.
Speaker 5: Would be very.
Speaker 6: Uncivil to people I was crossing, examining them, almost shouting
Speaker 6: at them and meeting them in the sense. But Alan
Speaker 6: Eisenberg was very successful in defending the outlaws. I heard
Speaker 6: the story about Eisenberg before he get into the details.
Speaker 6: In nineteen sixty eight, Eisenberg was working with his father Sydney,
Speaker 6: and whatever reason, they didn't like a judge that was
Speaker 6: sitting on the Milwaukee County Traffic Court. His name was
Speaker 6: John Krieger. Apparently they were an in Kreger, and at
Speaker 6: one time it's alleged that Eisenberg welt the creager and
Speaker 6: said he had private investigators following the judge. The judge
Speaker 6: would be off the bench within sixty or ninety days. Well,
Speaker 6: Krieger under the dress Meisenberg went into a courthouse bathroom,
Speaker 6: put a revolver in his models and killed himself. In
Speaker 6: nineteen seventies in Wisconsin's report suspended Eisenberg and his father
Speaker 6: what they called the intimidated acts to cause them to
Speaker 6: push himself over the edge. But Eisenberg was a good
Speaker 6: advocate for the outlaws. They knew on the game the system.
Speaker 6: The outlaws, of course, would try to intimidate as many
Speaker 6: witnesses they could coming forward, and the das and the
Speaker 6: system recognized that and ask sets. They were willing to
Speaker 6: cut deals with Eisenberg because they knew that these witnesses
Speaker 6: were hasen to testify and in these trials be very
Speaker 6: expensive because almost often they'd be going into witness protection programs,
Speaker 6: So the attorney really knew how to game the system.
Speaker 6: What really happened is that Wakee Sentinel reporter was really
Speaker 6: kind of following the Outlaws and reporting on the cases.
Speaker 6: It didn't seem to make much difference to them. And
Speaker 6: then in the late seventies, two members of the Milwaukee
Speaker 6: Sentinel staff were the party to saloon call of the
Speaker 6: new boot the Heapens Devils, where they were having their
Speaker 6: Christmas party. Two and a number of a couple of
Speaker 6: members of the Outlaws walked in and one began to
Speaker 6: spray the barroom with gunfire and shot two members of
Speaker 6: the Milwaukee Sentinel killed one member of the heaven Stills,
Speaker 6: and that kind of you know when I guess, when
Speaker 6: you start shooting the media and they're present, kind of
Speaker 6: changes the perception of the club by the media. And
Speaker 6: then the media began reporting to how lenient some of
Speaker 6: these deals were getting, where they were committing homicides, alleged homicides,
Speaker 6: alleged sexual assault. The bales were set five thousand dollars.
Speaker 6: They would some of the outlaws to go out reoffend
Speaker 6: of one of the outlaws got caught stealing a Harley Davidson,
Speaker 6: actually tied them to two thapts in one night, and
Speaker 6: then went to Louisville, Kentucky and attempted to pass fifty
Speaker 6: thousand dollars worth of phony US currency and came back Milwaukee.
Speaker 6: Bail remained the same. The judge sentenced them concurrently to
Speaker 6: the federal time that he served me for the counterfeit,
Speaker 6: So you got actually no time for the Harley david
Speaker 6: that's whatsoever. So the outlaws really the traditional system back
Speaker 6: in Milwaukee, in the state of Wisconsin and Milwaukee in
Speaker 6: the sixties and seventies, probably the first half of the
Speaker 6: nineteen eighties was very lenient, even for homicides. If you
Speaker 6: were sentenced to a homicide, you did sentenced to thirty years,
Speaker 6: did between twenty five percent thirty percent of the sentence
Speaker 6: before you were released. Those things tended to change in
Speaker 6: the nineteen eighties, and the outlaws really took advantage.
Speaker 5: Of the system. Right now, let's talk about the death
Speaker 5: of John Werner and also with that of course of
Speaker 5: Victoria Hornick and Gary Hornick. So talk about this just
Speaker 5: to again further illustrate or demonstrate how the Outlaws work well.
Speaker 6: In the early nineteen seventies, the Outlaws are trying to
Speaker 6: expand your reach side Milwaukee proper outside of Metro Milwaukee,
Speaker 6: and Sheboygan is the city. It's probably about sixty five
Speaker 6: miles north of Milwaukee and in Shaboycan County in the
Speaker 6: Sheboygan managed block line, there was a group called the
Speaker 6: Untouchables Motorcycle Club and their president's name was Gary Hornack.
Speaker 6: At the time Gary Hornick took over the Intouchables, they
Speaker 6: had about one hundred and thirty six members, but he
Speaker 6: wanted to make the group more or less like the Outlaws.
Speaker 6: So he did this and began getting rid of what
Speaker 6: he called all the leakers from the club and turned
Speaker 6: the club down to about forty members the Outlaw had.
Speaker 6: The Untouchables had a beautiful clubhouse. It was on a
Speaker 6: river on the Sheboygan manage block line. The Outlaws realized
Speaker 6: that they can incorporate this club into their system. They
Speaker 6: could expand their reach into that part of the state.
Speaker 6: And so, if you believed Gary Hornack, and he really
Speaker 6: has no reason to lie about this, they Outlaws went
Speaker 6: to an in Touchable party at the Intouchables clubhouse and
Speaker 6: apparently the Outlaws had a plan at the time to
Speaker 6: murder John Warner, who was a prospect for their club.
Speaker 6: He was at odds with the Outlaws. Some of them
Speaker 6: believed that he may have given information to police bought
Speaker 6: a prior sexual assault, and the Outlaws planned to kill
Speaker 6: Werner at this party. They know they killed him at
Speaker 6: this party. They believe that the Intubles had become involved
Speaker 6: in the cover up and in essence, the Outlaws would
Speaker 6: then be able to take over the club, and that's
Speaker 6: what happened. Warner was at the party. He was encouraged
Speaker 6: to fight another member of former member of the Outlaws.
Speaker 6: Warner got the best of the other member. Then he
Speaker 6: was getting ahead with a wine bottle and beaten a
Speaker 6: little bit. He went to clean up in a river.
Speaker 6: Eventually came into the clubhouse and one of the Outlaws
Speaker 6: members shouted to kill the son of a bitch, and
Speaker 6: Warner was taken outside of His colors were taken off
Speaker 6: the room. A knife was tasked from one member of
Speaker 6: the Outlaws to another, and the Outlaws stabbed him and
Speaker 6: Warner eventually was taken to a hospital, throwing the back
Speaker 6: of the station wagon. Taken to a hospital and asked
Speaker 6: away in a homicide investigation to it, but the Outlaws
Speaker 6: had there and then within about two weeks and Touchbowe's
Speaker 6: Motorcycle Club no longer existed and in essence was folded
Speaker 6: into the Outlaws and became the Outlaws Motorcycle Club's Shmoygan chapter,
Speaker 6: and that gave the al us they wanted that foothold
Speaker 6: in that part of the state.
Speaker 5: But you also talk about Victoria Hornick having some involvement
Speaker 5: in this and her shot with Graves.
Speaker 6: So right, Victoria Hornack was the wife of Gary Ring
Speaker 6: and she was not present at this when Mourner was killed,
Speaker 6: but Warner Hornack's close friend, Ceryl Pelosi was She's the
Speaker 6: woman that conveyed Werner to the hospital. And so Victoria,
Speaker 6: you can you can speculate here there's probably a little
Speaker 6: jealousy going on. But she had information about that homicide.
Speaker 6: Her husband obviously told her something about it, and she
Speaker 6: also had information about a bad check check that was forged.
Speaker 6: And so as a relationship got more rocky, Gary Horneck
Speaker 6: suspected his wife Victoria was going to go to the
Speaker 6: police and disinformation and he developed a plan to kill
Speaker 6: her with two other members of the club. Eventually, she's
Speaker 6: lured to a farm by two members of the club
Speaker 6: and at this farm one of the other members his
Speaker 6: name is Richard Lucy. He's supposed to shoot Victoria and
Speaker 6: Gary pushes it over, but he isn't the guts to
Speaker 6: do it. He fires around off, but he fires to
Speaker 6: the crown. He doesn't have the guts to shoot Victoria Hornet.
Speaker 6: So at that time, Victoria retreats into the woods. She
Speaker 6: backs back puddles in this wooded area. Gary follows her.
Speaker 6: The other people here three to four shots and then
Speaker 6: Gary emerges and tells tells the other members that he
Speaker 6: shot Victoria if they want to take the money in
Speaker 6: her pockets before they bury her. That information though that case.
Speaker 6: Eventually the two other members of the Outlaws, when law
Speaker 6: enforcement of pressure on, they turned state's witness and the
Speaker 6: district attorney in Cheboygan County was able to un panel
Speaker 6: it John Hearing, which is similar to the federal grand jury.
Speaker 6: Eventually they obtained the information they needed to try and
Speaker 6: convict Harry Hornack, key of the cases that while Harry
Speaker 6: Hornack's conviction and made the Outlaws Chapter Spoygan go away
Speaker 6: without Hornach chapter was going to be successful. But more
Speaker 6: importantly down the road, Hornick realized he's going to be
Speaker 6: imprisoned for a long time, so he decided to turn
Speaker 6: state's witness, and that's when police finally determined that the
Speaker 6: information make a prosecution against the suspect who killed John
Speaker 6: Werner and also learned that the outlaws specifically were involved
Speaker 6: in the Amstet bombing.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about the nineteen seventy six. They catch
Speaker 5: up break in the Werner murder investigation and Hornick agrees
Speaker 5: to turn state evidence and he contacts Special Agent Tomasselli.
Speaker 5: As you write in this book, there's the brick by brick.
Speaker 5: They get to some of these people and been sure
Speaker 5: enough despite their one percent motto, and they're pledged to
Speaker 5: not snitch on their fellow bikers. They certainly do. So
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about what they get from
Speaker 5: Gary Hornick and from this investigation and what he tells them.
Speaker 6: Well, Gary Hornick is serving a prison sentence at with Palm,
Speaker 6: which is the largest creational facility in Wisconsin. It's meant
Speaker 6: for hardware offenders, and the time there's very tough. So
Speaker 6: as he's sitting there for about a year and a
Speaker 6: half or so, he finally called the special Agent Louis
Speaker 6: Thomas Kelly from the Wisconsin Department of Criminal Investigation, and
Speaker 6: Hornick says that although he wasn't present and didn't see
Speaker 6: any firsthand regarding the Anstet murder, the other all Laws
Speaker 6: told him that the all Laws did it. But he
Speaker 6: was there when he said Craig Laughn Hopper killed John Warner,
Speaker 6: and he said the investigators piece by piece information about
Speaker 6: how the homicide occurred and why. He believes the outlaws
Speaker 6: set up that homicide to Perr and Shbuoygen laid the
Speaker 6: whole case off for him. Then in the interim Popper
Speaker 6: is charged with killing John Werner, but Eisenberger's Eisenberg is
Speaker 6: an attorney, one of the witnesses to the case. He's
Speaker 6: a member of the club by the name nickname of Goliath.
Speaker 6: He says he passed a knife to the to Hopper,
Speaker 6: who then killed Werner. He also said that lives in jail,
Speaker 6: Eisenberg can't visit him, and Olsen was wearing a wire
Speaker 6: from Tomaselli and Eisenberg was trying to convince him to
Speaker 6: lie in the stand and said burn Warren perjury by
Speaker 6: telling him that Warner was having an affair with number
Speaker 6: member of the Outlaws. It's not true. This gets reported
Speaker 6: in court, but still the jury listen to all the
Speaker 6: evidence and they find Hopper not guilty. They believe it
Speaker 6: was some type of self defense climate or the misidentification
Speaker 6: of the possible stabbing stabbing suspect. Copper beats the rat
Speaker 6: Hornack in the interim, since it's really hard to get
Speaker 6: witnesses against the Aulaws this espectually someone who's been higher up.
Speaker 6: He becomes a controversial figure because he killed his wife
Speaker 6: with the time was you know, six months pregnant, and
Speaker 6: he's getting these really really kind of treat with kid
Speaker 6: gloves by authorities in Cebuoygan County. They did a set
Speaker 6: up a jail cell next to his where he can
Speaker 6: make leather products that he was selling the members of
Speaker 6: the county. They'd take him up to the roof of
Speaker 6: the courthouse, let him sunbathe on the courthouse. At one
Speaker 6: time they took him up to a resort one of
Speaker 6: the homes of Dorrit County, which is over one of
Speaker 6: our resort communities for a weekend so we can relax
Speaker 6: and so the media focused on that the media figure
Speaker 6: out why DA was cutting us a good deal with Hornack,
Speaker 6: who himself was a killer. But that's how tough is
Speaker 6: to get good performance against these guys. But the Hornet
Speaker 6: case taught the outlaws, though, is that like the Hell's
Speaker 6: Angels have a slogan, free men can keep the secret
Speaker 6: if you are dead. Well, as long as people were
Speaker 6: still alive and the police could put the squeeze to them,
Speaker 6: it would turn state's witness but they couldn't do that
Speaker 6: they were dead. And so that's what the all us
Speaker 6: proceeded to do to all the witnesses in the Ansteck case,
Speaker 6: and someilar their crimes proceeded to go about killing people
Speaker 6: that could become potential state's witnesses.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about Joseph Caller and John Bushman and
Speaker 5: the rape and beaten a woman a beer bottle inserted
Speaker 5: in her tell us about this incident and because this
Speaker 5: is important to this ongoing investigation as we'll find what
Speaker 5: do they find as a result of this investigation that
Speaker 5: starts off with this rape and they believe this maybe
Speaker 5: this woman won't go to police.
Speaker 6: What happens well, John Bushman? John Bushman is the primary
Speaker 6: suspect the Larry Anstet bombing case. Investigators all know it
Speaker 6: that Bushman was involved because they had a snitch. His
Speaker 6: name was Billy the Kid Wadsworth, who came forward and
Speaker 6: said as he and Bushman and burglarized the quarry where
Speaker 6: the TNT was taken from. And Bushman and another partner
Speaker 6: in Clifford mansion, they ran a chop shop on a farm.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 6: Bushman obviously always a primary suspe in the case. He
Speaker 6: end him getting indicted federally for running firearms that were
Speaker 6: stolen from a warehouse in Milwaukee. And while he was
Speaker 6: out on bail, Bushman ended up going to a party
Speaker 6: that was held at the Clubhouse in Milwaukee. Clubhouse was
Speaker 6: an eleven brewstery in the city's near south side. One
Speaker 6: of the people there was Joseph Kohler. What happened was
Speaker 6: that a woman who apparently was a stripper. She came
Speaker 6: to the party at the imitation of one of the outlaws.
Speaker 6: When you walked into the clubhouse was apparently a vending machine.
Speaker 6: If you wanted to you had to pay to get
Speaker 6: paid put money into the vending machine to get the
Speaker 6: beer out, and she actually got a beer from a
Speaker 6: vending machine. Joseph Kohler was nickname the junk Yard, picked
Speaker 6: her up, threw over her shoulder and peering up a
Speaker 6: small ladder to a loft or a polar. Bushman and
Speaker 6: another member of the Outlaws because she could do sexually
Speaker 6: assault her numerous times in numerous different ways. The woman
Speaker 6: then after she's assaulted, the Outlaws took with her with
Speaker 6: no clothing. She came downstairs and there was a large
Speaker 6: party going on, and the outlaw Bushman told her fuller.
Speaker 6: He got in the bar and danced to the people
Speaker 6: present at the time. She alleges Kohler put a beer
Speaker 6: bottle in vagina and Bushman flashed a knife. The president
Speaker 6: of the Outlaws chapter the time, Jim Moody, he told
Speaker 6: that he told the bikers, look, I don't think she's
Speaker 6: gonna do any of this letter and go. So she
Speaker 6: leaves the party with another Outlaw and goes to that
Speaker 6: Outlaws house and spends the night, and then in the
Speaker 6: morning when she wakes up, she contacts the police and
Speaker 6: the sexual assault investigations. On the way. The police end
Speaker 6: up doing a search warrant at the clubhouse and they
Speaker 6: find the woman's she took her. She had a jumption
Speaker 6: she took with her, but she couldn't find her panties.
Speaker 6: Her panties were found over a clock draped over a
Speaker 6: clock in the clubhouse. Ironically, that the next day, in
Speaker 6: an unrelated manner, while Bushman is under investigation for the
Speaker 6: sexual assault, the investigators finally serve a search warrant at
Speaker 6: the property farm where Bushman and Mansion had the chop shop,
Speaker 6: and they find he and he used to make the
Speaker 6: explosives in the antet case in the rafters of the
Speaker 6: barn and the chop shop is so this is not
Speaker 6: a good week for John bush Eventually, Bushman is charged
Speaker 6: and pulled her our charge with the sexual assault case
Speaker 6: that goes to trial. Eisenberger is there again defending them,
Speaker 6: and even that Dia believes that the case is kind
Speaker 6: of weak. He believes the women's sexual proclivities that after
Speaker 6: she left the party with the all member, spent the
Speaker 6: night in his house. Apparently when his wife left, she
Speaker 6: had consensual sex with members of the outlaws. So the
Speaker 6: dad really thought it's going to be a kind of
Speaker 6: a crapshoot in this case. But he tries the case
Speaker 6: and Eisenberg tries to intimidate the witness. The long story shortest,
Speaker 6: the jury believes the woman they find, Bushmen and Kohl
Speaker 6: are guilty the sexual assault. And so this is the
Speaker 6: obviously the girl who was sexual assault that she was
Speaker 6: putting with retection and flowing in a different state by
Speaker 6: this point in time, now the police and the prosecutors
Speaker 6: are on the same page about how to make these
Speaker 6: witnesses testify, given them proper protection to testify against the outlaws.
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Speaker 5: of the Outlaw motorcycle club, and police and prosecutors begin
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Speaker 5: to get more information to further head up the ladder
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Speaker 6: A predicate act is a crime that would meet the
Speaker 6: definitionary of racketeering in the US statue style. There's approximately
Speaker 6: eighteen several offenses and dozens other state offenses that would
Speaker 6: be applicable. Murder, mayhem, arson, car theft. If you commit
Speaker 6: a person would commit three predicate acts list in a
Speaker 6: certain period of time. Generally it's between six and ten years,
Speaker 6: depending on the offense. And they do it with an
Speaker 6: organization or an organization, that becomes an act of racketeering
Speaker 6: and you can get a maximum sentence of twenty five
Speaker 6: years to life for racketeering. So when a federal agency
Speaker 6: goes in and indict somebody for racketeering, they have a
Speaker 6: lot of pressure is placed under defendants because the prosecutors
Speaker 6: have a lot of leeway and how to charge the case.
Speaker 6: And as a result, they can really get members of
Speaker 6: the club or organized crime group close to most of
Speaker 6: the outlaws whatever to come forward as witnesses to avoid
Speaker 6: life sentences.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about matching the chop shop guy, and
Speaker 5: now you talk about Joe stole leu An Irby and
Speaker 5: Clifford Mackin gone missing, and they talk about a man
Speaker 5: named Vaughan. So tell us about this arson fire and
Speaker 5: when we talked about in the introduction of the mother
Speaker 5: and her perishing in this fire, tell us about this
Speaker 5: incredible incident.
Speaker 6: Okay, well just think of it. I don't think I
Speaker 6: covered stolen herby. So I'll that before I get to
Speaker 6: the arson. But Joe Stole partner of John Bushman, and
Speaker 6: he also he wasn't an out Law, but he's an
Speaker 6: associate of the Outlaws that worked at the chop shop.
Speaker 6: His girlfriend was a lou Anne Herby. She was a
Speaker 6: twenty year old striptease dancer from International Falls, Minnesota. She'd
Speaker 6: only been in Waffy for about two weeks when she
Speaker 6: met Stole and they became a couple. Well, they were
Speaker 6: both presidents Stole, Irby and Bushman at the chop shop.
Speaker 6: When Billy the Kid Wadsworth, one of the person actually
Speaker 6: gave information the police went there and saw Bushman making
Speaker 6: the presence of the Heavens and Devils, which was the
Speaker 6: bomb that killed Anstett. He's putting together at the chop shop.
Speaker 6: Within the span after Bushman got indicted for the firearm case,
Speaker 6: Stole was in one of his partners Bushman. Stole had
Speaker 6: taken some guns down into Illinois and traded him to
Speaker 6: a member of the Outlaws and Liberty Bill Well. Obviously
Speaker 6: they didn't know it, but the Outlaws member of Illinois
Speaker 6: was an informant for the ATF, So the ATF followed
Speaker 6: Bushman stole back by airplane and eventually indicted both them
Speaker 6: for the firearms trafficking and soon afterwards, because obviously stole
Speaker 6: nu who made the device, so did Irby stolen Herby
Speaker 6: just vanished off the face of the earth. The next
Speaker 6: Gentlemans Clifford Mansion. And the reason Mansion is important that
Speaker 6: he owned the farm when the chop shop was and eventually,
Speaker 6: when Bushman knew that he was going to go away
Speaker 6: from the sexual assault, he officers had served a search
Speaker 6: warrant at Mansion's farm. He invited Mansion to meet him
Speaker 6: at a farm in Waukeshaw. One of the investigators in
Speaker 6: the case, Roger Hindenbler, says that Mansion was lured there
Speaker 6: who was told to bring ten thousand dollars with them,
Speaker 6: and that Bushman would procure motorcycle Forum on to become
Speaker 6: a member of the All Laws. But you know, Mansion
Speaker 6: must not have been the sharpest tool in the shed
Speaker 6: because he knew his place had just been rated, and
Speaker 6: he knew that bush was going to be a prime suspect.
Speaker 6: But he went to the farmer Walkshaw anyway, and he
Speaker 6: went there, he was murdered, and he was his body
Speaker 6: was thrown into a shallow grape underneath and then placed
Speaker 6: underneath his shed. So now you have those three individuals
Speaker 6: missing Bush and eventually goes to prison of a sexual assault.
Speaker 6: And the outlaws now under a lot of pressures still
Speaker 6: from antit and some of other offenses, and they began
Speaker 6: migrating out of Milwaukee and into a suburb called Salt Milwaukee.
Speaker 6: It's in Milwaukee County, probably about four or five miles
Speaker 6: south of the city proper, and they started visiting caverns.
Speaker 6: There's a very blue collar at the time. There are
Speaker 6: a lot of industry cyrus used to be there, a
Speaker 6: lot of big companies, and the alls began visiting caverns.
Speaker 6: They began analycense with caverns and stealed right out of
Speaker 6: the tavern. Finally, when they bot the third head called
Speaker 6: the Brandy and Iron, a woman that are named Virginia
Speaker 6: Phillips will not let them inside. She told them, I
Speaker 6: don't want you inside. You guys are animals lost to leave. Well,
Speaker 6: at four o'clock in the morning that morning, two men
Speaker 6: there's no description really, there's two men coached the tavern
Speaker 6: which is now closed, and they spray the door with
Speaker 6: a gasoline and lighted on fire. Either they didn't know
Speaker 6: it or they did know, but upstairs from the taverner's
Speaker 6: apartments and a young mother or an infant child were
Speaker 6: killed in the fire from smoking elation. At the time,
Speaker 6: now on self Milwaukee, this was a typical blue collar
Speaker 6: long type now the small police department. So the residents
Speaker 6: became sole rile. They openly told reporters that informed this
Speaker 6: Landing group to go after the Outlaws. Nothing much truly,
Speaker 6: it came with the Landing group. They always continuing out
Speaker 6: for a while. The Milwaukee police got wise, even started
Speaker 6: bring partner chose the self Milwaukee police, but nobody were charged.
Speaker 6: Bring iron fire, that one just one of the cases.
Speaker 6: It's a little bit and investigators are walks. Attorney Michael
Speaker 6: mc chan said that heat information he the outlaws the
Speaker 6: arson fire in the death advanced, but he had not
Speaker 6: information bring chargers.
Speaker 5: In retire you talk about the summer of nineteen eighty,
Speaker 5: David Hoover from the DEA calls Outlaws a highly sophisticated,
Speaker 5: well organized criminal enterprise. And you say that also that
Speaker 5: they talked about the changing of the garden Milwaukee's biker community.
Speaker 5: Some went to prison, some faded away, And so what
Speaker 5: does the eighties usher in in terms of any change
Speaker 5: in headway towards stemming the tide of the outlaws. Is
Speaker 5: there any new developments in the eighties You talked about
Speaker 5: the summer of nineteen eighty one a Canadian BC documentary
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about what changes in the
Speaker 5: eighties and what are those changes.
Speaker 6: Well, in nineteen sixties and interually formed im those members
Speaker 6: were getting older, some of them were on we're moving
Speaker 6: on the different things away from the club, spent in
Speaker 6: the prison. Some members just drop out of the club
Speaker 6: and new ones come in. But the nineteen eighties were
Speaker 6: the all loss were having a transition space, or because
Speaker 6: some members were in prison, some were getting older, or
Speaker 6: everyone on recruit and dry new members, new blood into
Speaker 6: the organization. But because they were doing so, they were
Speaker 6: kind of a level of this array. When real hardcore
Speaker 6: members were no longer there, the ones that remained the
Speaker 6: job was well recruit young members and she should how
Speaker 6: to be found without laws. And so when this period
Speaker 6: you begin to see that the trench and from the chief,
Speaker 6: the first original part of the club to the club
Speaker 6: that would never it would be there from about the
Speaker 6: early nineteen eighties. Police typeens. In nineteen ninety seven he
Speaker 6: all lost. This time, there's a man living Connocal, Wisconsin,
Speaker 6: John David Marshall. He was linked as the out Laws
Speaker 6: national enforcer and it was believed that he was. He
Speaker 6: transformed the identity of moved to Canada, was killed by
Speaker 6: the Hells Angels. Eventually comes back to Wisconsin. He catches
Speaker 6: a gun case in Wisconsin. This comes out in the
Speaker 6: court records that he actually was a national forcer for
Speaker 6: the club. He didn't see. Now the organized crime pattern
Speaker 6: moving away from the earlier properment the Outlaws and ruffian tormentors,
Speaker 6: the deadly eradicators now becoming more of a racketeering based
Speaker 6: organization in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 5: Now you talk about ten years after Clifford Maclins matchins,
Speaker 5: the disappearance. This is the progress that law enforcement and
Speaker 5: prosecutors are having. Uh. They talk about a guy named
Speaker 5: Willie Presca, and you talk about an interview where they
Speaker 5: talk about Bushman's participation in those murders. So tell us
Speaker 5: what they get into, how they get that information, and
Speaker 5: how things are progressing in cold cases that they are
Speaker 5: still on the books.
Speaker 6: Well, eventually Mansion after after the search rom was served
Speaker 6: at his farm, Mansion hired an attorney and agreed to
Speaker 6: cooperate with prosecutors. Mansion's eventually went down to the Milwaukee
Speaker 6: County Courthouse and they met with investigators and assistant Attourney
Speaker 6: Jeneral Residents and Mansion's attorney told the DA and Mansion
Speaker 6: to provide information about the Fanstet bombing, as well as
Speaker 6: guns that Bushman had transferred to the Indian group American
Speaker 6: Indian Movement. Uh So, what happened Paster and Bushman? Excuse me?
Speaker 6: Prosecutor Mansions the trade redou to come back a couple
Speaker 6: of weeks. In the sis of finer details, this is
Speaker 6: we're kind of long enforced and wonders. At that time,
Speaker 6: they probably should stork mansion placement to a witness protection program.
Speaker 5: He could have taken his prol friend with them.
Speaker 6: They didn't do that for some reason, And I talked
Speaker 6: to the investigator about it. He said he didn't know why,
Speaker 6: but maybe they gets meant that this transition to witness
Speaker 6: protection when they came back to think of all the
Speaker 6: retaliation with the ollives that would have done so, because
Speaker 6: we all know what happened to the cases, and Bushmen
Speaker 6: knew that a search warm had been executed at the
Speaker 6: farm and the police were looking for them in regard
Speaker 6: to that search war whatever reason, the police didn't do it,
Speaker 6: and Bushman got managed before the police did. Nobody really
Speaker 6: knew what happened to Mansion for about ten years. They
Speaker 6: knew he disappeared and they couldn't find And then in
Speaker 6: nineteen eighty eight, in December nineteen eighty eight, two detectives
Speaker 6: will he sold the cars were familiar with the Allways.
Speaker 6: They stopped Wholly crested. The name is slantized. They stopped
Speaker 6: him for a legal violation and eventually take him to jail,
Speaker 6: and he said he provided. He said, look, I can't
Speaker 6: tell you killed there's another killing the Rollbox family, so
Speaker 6: I can't tell you killed them. I can't tell you
Speaker 6: who killed Match because I was there when they buried
Speaker 6: his body. So Presto began to tell him the whole situation,
Speaker 6: how he's instructed to go out to the farm and
Speaker 6: he's gonna pick up Mansion's truck and drive it to
Speaker 6: the chop shops that could be destroyed. When he got there,
Speaker 6: he saw Mansion lying on the ground spaces caved in
Speaker 6: from the butt of a shotgun. If he had suffered
Speaker 6: a chockcut last to the stomach, I was dead and
Speaker 6: the yellow lows being great from underneath his shd on
Speaker 6: this farm. So the investigators identify the farm. You already
Speaker 6: had changed now because a lot of the farm for
Speaker 6: being transitioned into subdivisions. So the investigators about two days
Speaker 6: to identify the farm and were in conjunction with investigators
Speaker 6: and walks up Countians Jason Milwaukeee and eventually got consent
Speaker 6: from the owner of the farm and search weren't to
Speaker 6: dig up the grave and they found the bones believed
Speaker 6: to be Mansions. Ironically enough, even though it seemed like
Speaker 6: police at all, they had all the elements of the crime.
Speaker 6: The major thing at the time, this is when DNA
Speaker 6: was in its infancy, was the actual identity of Mansion.
Speaker 6: They had a forensic investigator a pathologist come through and
Speaker 6: she said that she was sure to a medical degree
Speaker 6: of certainty that the person was Mansion. The d at
Speaker 6: the time didn't want to buy it. The investigators believed
Speaker 6: that the DA, they personally believed this to their court.
Speaker 6: The DA was afraid of the all lads. He asked
Speaker 6: a question apparently that they charged this case. The need
Speaker 6: to be special security members measures taken to the courthouse
Speaker 6: and maybe two members of the DA staff, and when
Speaker 6: a federalation said there would be, he kind of seemed
Speaker 6: to pause about charging Bushmen with the death of Mansion,
Speaker 6: and so the case went uncleared. Ironically, since Bushman is
Speaker 6: alleged to have killed Anstead by the investigators they'd gotten Mansion,
Speaker 6: they would have gotten as killer too, but the case
Speaker 6: is still open. Kind of asidement to the story on
Speaker 6: this though, is that while I was writing the book,
Speaker 6: I was attempting to find it out more information about
Speaker 6: mansions involvement with the American Indian Movement to transfer of guns.
Speaker 6: To do so well on to file a Freedom Information
Speaker 6: Act request with the FBI. In order for me to
Speaker 6: do that, I had two things. I have to have
Speaker 6: Mansion signature, which is impossible because he's dead, or I
Speaker 6: have to have a death certificate that Mansion is dead
Speaker 6: so that there's no privacy related issues with the federal
Speaker 6: government and the FBI. When I called the medical when
Speaker 6: I called the Wakshaw County Records of Deeds to get
Speaker 6: the woman said there was not on file, and she
Speaker 6: referred me to the medical examiner, who said that Mansion's
Speaker 6: bones they had to be positively identified. They cannot find
Speaker 6: a living relative who was willing to supply compared to
Speaker 6: a DNA sample of fear that the outlaws would retaliate.
Speaker 6: So those bones have basically set on the shelf for
Speaker 6: twenty eight odd years and his death has still ever
Speaker 6: been identified. So long story short, little little research you
Speaker 6: can find us in the conclusion of the book. The
Speaker 6: last half of the conclusion. After they claiming they couldn't
Speaker 6: find a relative of Mansions, I did a little research
Speaker 6: with the about six different UW Wisconsin databases and I
Speaker 6: was able to locate two relatives of Mansions, and I
Speaker 6: contacted one of them and the relative pluming it relative
Speaker 6: would be able to provide a sample of DNA. And
Speaker 6: so there were a couple of glitches in the case.
Speaker 6: But I was told two weeks ago that investigators making
Speaker 6: progress to law enforcement to possibly clear the case.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's incredible. So part of this book too, is,
Speaker 5: as we mentioned, the ongoing fight with the Hell's Angels
Speaker 5: for control of Wisconsin. So you talk about that fight,
Speaker 5: tell us about some of the incidents that that are
Speaker 5: characterized this fight with the Hell's Angels in Wisconsin.
Speaker 6: Well, in about nineteen ninety or so, rumors were spread
Speaker 6: in that the Hell's Angels were attempting to patch over
Speaker 6: three clubs or three chapters of one club, the Hell's Henchmen,
Speaker 6: and they had chapters in Rockford, Chicago, and Southman, Indiana, Illinois,
Speaker 6: and Wisconsin or our Outlaw of States, I mean the Outlaws.
Speaker 6: The mother chapter is in Chicago, that's not in their
Speaker 6: second chapter or third chapter, but I look at it
Speaker 6: is in Milwaukee, the hell So the Hell's Angels making
Speaker 6: a move into Illinois was a major threat at the Outlaws.
Speaker 6: The Hell's Angels trucially started on the West coast, and
Speaker 6: that's when the country was divided into four regions that
Speaker 6: the groups were going to kind of dominate. Tagans on
Speaker 6: the east coast, the Outlaws in the Midwest, the South,
Speaker 6: the Bandido is in the Southwest, and the Hell's Angels
Speaker 6: on the west coast and moving inward. But the Hell's
Speaker 6: Angels began expanding in different parts of the country, and
Speaker 6: they began encroaching on the Outlaws and the Pagans and
Speaker 6: the Vandidos and caused obviously a lot of resentment between
Speaker 6: these groups. So the person who actually sponsored the Hell's
Speaker 6: Henchman to become members of the Hell's Angels was Pat Matter.
Speaker 6: He was the chapter president of the Hell's Angels in Minnesota.
Speaker 6: The Outlaws got win of this in about late nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty eighties early nineteen ninety and so they came up
Speaker 6: with a strategy that they needed to have a club
Speaker 6: around their southern border as kind of their eyes and
Speaker 6: their ears. They patched over a club called the Booth
Speaker 6: Runners from their club into the Outlaws state Line chapter,
Speaker 6: and their leader was a guy by the name of
Speaker 6: Kevin Spike O'Neal. He's probably one of the most dangerous
Speaker 6: bikers in Wisconsin history because he was brazen and how
Speaker 6: he go about his business. So the first act that
Speaker 6: the when they were still booze Learners to tests for metal,
Speaker 6: the Outlaws had the Booze Learners go down to Rockford
Speaker 6: and attached an explosive device that looked like a fire
Speaker 6: extinguisher of wires onto it and placed it at the
Speaker 6: door with the Hell's Henchmen rocked from clubhouse on the
Speaker 6: Stay Street. The leader of the president of the Hell's Henchman,
Speaker 6: him and his girlfriend came home from the night out
Speaker 6: and they were watching some movies upstairs. They heard some
Speaker 6: ruckus down in the clubhouse like a TV was on,
Speaker 6: and he grabbed the gun, went out to investigate and
Speaker 6: saw this improvised explosive device. Placed them against the door
Speaker 6: and notified the police. The police came. They called them
Speaker 6: the bomb squad. Their theory was they're going to take
Speaker 6: this explosive device and put it onto a net, and
Speaker 6: then from the net would be taken into this steel
Speaker 6: tube and that it would be taken out in the
Speaker 6: country where to be detonated and the explosion would be
Speaker 6: forced up in the air out of the steel tube.
Speaker 6: A while the investigators were trying to put the device
Speaker 6: on the net, it flipped onto the Debt Nation Wars
Speaker 6: and exploded and it shattered windows for about four blocks.
Speaker 6: The Hell's Henchman president, he was about two hundred feet
Speaker 6: away at a car wash, and the last wave was
Speaker 6: so strong they had a cargo open and it closed
Speaker 6: the door of the car. Three of the police officers
Speaker 6: that were there on the bomb squad suffered injuries. And
Speaker 6: so that was about two months later on Year's Day
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety one, the Outlaws officially patched over the Boozebunners
Speaker 6: and became their state line chapter to kind of tested
Speaker 6: through metal and sifted commit it and bombing and Rockford,
Speaker 6: and then really the war was on between the Outlaws
Speaker 6: and the Hell's Angels because the Hell's Angels are encroaching
Speaker 6: in to Illinois and southeastern wiscons more or less. From there,
Speaker 6: there was another a series of attacks where the Outlaws
Speaker 6: were trying to discourage the Hell's enginants from dropping their
Speaker 6: patch and becoming members of the Hells Angels. And there
Speaker 6: was a series of beatings, bombings, shootings that were occurred.
Speaker 6: The last bombing that occurred, it's probably the most significant,
Speaker 6: was in November of nineteen ninety four and the Outlaws
Speaker 6: had stolen a car in Wisconsin. The Ford tourists been
Speaker 6: full of up to one hundred pounds of C four.
Speaker 6: They drove the car down to Illinois and parked it
Speaker 6: outside the clubhouse the Chicago Clubhouse of the Hell's henchman.
Speaker 6: One of the persons inside would pull a cord and
Speaker 6: the device would explode in sixty seconds. After parking a
Speaker 6: carry entine, another car driven by the Outlaws Kevin O'Neil.
Speaker 6: They drove away school bluffs just passed by before the
Speaker 6: bomb detonated, and they blew a four hundred pound steel
Speaker 6: door off the clubhouse, impacted it, went through two walls
Speaker 6: and impacted it in the cement wall. Six buildings suffered
Speaker 6: structural damage, and the bomb left a four foot hole
Speaker 6: crater in the street by most standards, by most standards
Speaker 6: of experts explosive experts in the United States after the
Speaker 6: El Qaeda bombing of the first Bold Trade Center bombing
Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety one, Timothy mcveigh's explosion outside Alfred P.
Speaker 6: Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. The bombing in the
Speaker 6: Chicago Clubs was the third largest car bombing in US history. Amazingly,
Speaker 6: no one was killed, and some of the investigators of
Speaker 6: the scene calculated the odds and they said, the odds
Speaker 6: are astronomal and no one be hurt seriously killed. It's
Speaker 6: kind of an amazing thing. But that bomb blasts more
Speaker 6: or less, club brought on so much attention that it
Speaker 6: caused the Outlaws and the Hells Angels to kind of
Speaker 6: rethink they're war at each other, and things seem to
Speaker 6: simmer down because of all the attention that blasts brought
Speaker 6: upon both clubs.
Speaker 5: You talk about law enforcement back and forth with the
Speaker 5: outlaws and the detective Larry Zarletti in particular, and you
Speaker 5: mentioned that Mark had banged on his door at three
Speaker 5: in the morning, so they knew he knew that they
Speaker 5: knew where he lived. But you talk about Mark Quinn
Speaker 5: in prison and Randall Miller and talking about Ruth and
Speaker 5: Morris Gager. So tell us about this event.
Speaker 6: Well. Part of the member Spike O'Neil's crew, the state
Speaker 6: Line Chapter, they were very active in southeastern Wisconsin, and
Speaker 6: two of the members, Randall Badman Miller and James Preecher Snyder,
Speaker 6: had heard through the grapevine that an elderly couple, Ruth
Speaker 6: and Morris Dogger, had thirty thousand dollars in cash stashed
Speaker 6: at their farm in northern Illinois. You can actually throw
Speaker 6: a stone from the Wisconsin border and hit this farm
Speaker 6: in Illinois. And so they decided they were going to
Speaker 6: go down the device the plan to go down there
Speaker 6: and rob the elderly couple this cash. Now, the farm
Speaker 6: also had a repair shop for motorcycles, and that's how
Speaker 6: the family was owned in the motorcycling community, and Ruth
Speaker 6: also had a trailer where she sold like carpets and
Speaker 6: rubs from So, the two members of the out Laws
Speaker 6: arrive approximately six point thirty in the morning. They go
Speaker 6: to the door the farmhouse. Of the farmhouse and Ruth
Speaker 6: Glger answers. At the time, Miller says that he's going
Speaker 6: to go talk to her husband in the shed in
Speaker 6: the workshed, and then Schnyder lures Ruth Galgar is this
Speaker 6: trailer where she has these carpets. He asked about the money.
Speaker 6: She does the same thing. He tistol whips her. She
Speaker 6: falls to the browning and starts a knife in her
Speaker 6: neck and slits her throat. He then leaves the trailer
Speaker 6: after locking it. He goes to meet Miller outside in
Speaker 6: the repair shop. They enter, Miller confronts Morris Dogger about
Speaker 6: where the thirty thousand dollars and cash is. He says
Speaker 6: he doesn't know what they're talking about. He hands over
Speaker 6: a small amount of cash or a drawer, and then
Speaker 6: Miller follows him into an adjacent room and stabs him
Speaker 6: at death. The two outlaws leave, and they believe they
Speaker 6: had covered their tracks for both wearing hereats and things
Speaker 6: not to be laeve any DNA and gloves, and they
Speaker 6: eventually go to the lake and Eva, Wisconsin, to a
Speaker 6: restaurant and they buy breakfast at the proceeds that they
Speaker 6: have for the robbery, the small amount of proceeds. What
Speaker 6: happens though, is that law enforcement gets called in, and
Speaker 6: law enforcement immediately suspects the couple's son, Gary Golber. Gary
Speaker 6: lives on the farm, but in a different building on
Speaker 6: the farm, and Gary was kind of a recovering alcoholic
Speaker 6: like the smoke marijuana. Some people would call him a
Speaker 6: benevolent hippie type. He was an organic farmer, and so
Speaker 6: law enforcement focused on Gary Golger put a lot of
Speaker 6: pressure on him. Belger really never did confess to do
Speaker 6: the to doing the murders. There was no physical evidence
Speaker 6: linking there, but based on the overall circumstantial evidence, he
Speaker 6: was charged with the murders of his parents, convicted of
Speaker 6: a jury trial, and sentenced to die by lethal injection.
Speaker 6: Fortunately for Delger, as the investigators began making progress in
Speaker 6: the Outlaws cases, Mark crash Quinn, who was the one
Speaker 6: time enforced of the State Line Chapter, was doing time
Speaker 6: in jail Infyoria. He'd get caught up in the Ruth
Speaker 6: murders of Morris Ruth, he called up a center. Devaucaner,
Speaker 6: the ATF agent Milwaukee's handled the investigation. Fuller, come down
Speaker 6: here and he told him that they had the wrong
Speaker 6: person and death row for the murders of Ruth Morris Gaubert.
Speaker 6: Actually Randall Miller and James Snegger were the killers, and
Speaker 6: then the case against the outlaws proceeded. Eventually Gary Golger
Speaker 6: was released from prison.
Speaker 5: Thank god. You talked about the relationship with Kevin O'Neill
Speaker 5: and you said one of the most dangerous outlaws in
Speaker 5: Wisconsin's history. And David Wolfe and then the role of
Speaker 5: his wife in another incident we talk about a man
Speaker 5: named Mattheus being killed h and also again the henchman
Speaker 5: are involved in this as well. So tell us about
Speaker 5: this what happens with Kevin O'Neil and David wolf and
Speaker 5: his wife.
Speaker 6: Sure O'Neil is the head of the state Line chapter,
Speaker 6: and what happens is that an All Laws member by
Speaker 6: the name of Peter Grease Lightning Rodgers is a shot Chicago.
Speaker 6: The outlaw suspect who was the Hell's Hensmon fit the shooting,
Speaker 6: and Rogers was the regional president of the All Laws there.
Speaker 6: This obviously caused a lot of animosity between the Outlaws
Speaker 6: and the Hell's Henchmon. Now the All Laws are really
Speaker 6: on the offensive, and they didn't believe they could take
Speaker 6: having Rogers shot without retaliating. So back in the Union
Speaker 6: grew up Wisconsin where the state line chapter of the
Speaker 6: Outlaw's Heads clubhouse. O'Neil summoned David Wolf there, and David
Speaker 6: Wolf at the time was a prospect for the All Laws.
Speaker 6: He wasn't a fully patched member. They told Wolf, if look,
Speaker 6: I want you to go on there and product surveillance
Speaker 6: on Lamont Monte Matthias, who was the treasurer of the
Speaker 6: Hell's Henchmon. He owned the motorcycle shop in Rockford called
Speaker 6: mc Advercations. If you want to move on here, conduct
Speaker 6: surveillance and you got a chance to take him out.
Speaker 6: O'Neil provide him with a map of the locations, and
Speaker 6: then Wolf, along with Harvey R. V. Powers and an
Speaker 6: other prospects of the Outlaws, they traveled to Rockford the
Speaker 6: night before the homicide. Well, Wolfe's wife Patricia wolf apparently
Speaker 6: had got win that this homicide was going to take place.
Speaker 6: She called McHenry County Sheriff's office, use me Lake County
Speaker 6: Sheriff's office. She offered them information to look, there's gonna
Speaker 6: be a homicide. The Allaws are gonna come down there tonight.
Speaker 6: They're gonna kill somebody who owns a shop. He's a
Speaker 6: member of a rival club in Rockford. Whatever reason, this
Speaker 6: an information never gets passed down to the investigators for
Speaker 6: about twelve or thirteen hours. So in the interim, the
Speaker 6: outlaws are watching the shop and Matthias comes to the
Speaker 6: shop and they'll watch him enter. Eventually Wolfe agrees to
Speaker 6: go into the shop, purchase a spark club and check
Speaker 6: out casey and side. He goes in, gets the spark plug,
Speaker 6: looks around, he realizes Matthias is there by himself. He
Speaker 6: returns to the car to two other members of assol
Speaker 6: skates of the out Laws, and they say what's up,
Speaker 6: and he said, well, Matthias is there by himself. And
Speaker 6: then Pauler tells him, look, are we going to do
Speaker 6: this or what? And then Matsias but then Wolfe says,
Speaker 6: I'm gonna do it. Let's go. So Wolf returns back
Speaker 6: to the shop he wants He says he wants to
Speaker 6: exchange the spark plug. He can tell Matthias is a
Speaker 6: little kind of hanky at the time. Matthias turns around
Speaker 6: to walk towards these parts through him. He's followed by
Speaker 6: Wolf and then pulls out at forty five caliber pistol
Speaker 6: and begins shoot him in the neck. The gun jams
Speaker 6: though after four or five shots are fired, Matthias dies
Speaker 6: in the ground in A fight is on and Wolf
Speaker 6: uses the pistol butt to beat Matthias so hard that
Speaker 6: the handle of the firearm shatters. Believeing that Matthias is dead,
Speaker 6: Wolf gets up. He's going to leave the back toward
Speaker 6: the shop, and he goes to back. He can't get out,
Speaker 6: it's locked, so he returns to the front of the
Speaker 6: shop and he sees Matthias laying there. He's still gurgling.
Speaker 6: He's swearing at Wolf, calling him with different names. So
Speaker 6: Wolf reaches for a nearby screwdriver, begins stabbing him several times,
Speaker 6: and takes the screwdriver and shoves it right to his neck.
Speaker 6: Wolf leaves the shop. He gets into the car. They
Speaker 6: end up going to Horbe, Wisconsin, when they begin to
Speaker 6: destroy evidence of the crime. But the next day wellt
Speaker 6: in noon time the investigators finding the message from Patricia
Speaker 6: wolf that the possible homicide might happened. And as the
Speaker 6: investigators taking the information, he's listening to the radio and
Speaker 6: the information with the homicide MC fabrications came over about noon.
Speaker 6: The next day, ups delivery driver walked from the shop
Speaker 6: to Balmathia is dead. So how that information wasn't passed
Speaker 6: we don't know. The next ATF agent had possession of it.
Speaker 6: They were abouted to try to, you know, wash postile
Speaker 6: actor retaliation, but never had a chance.
Speaker 5: One of the more interesting things in this book, and
Speaker 5: it's almost comedic in a book that's not very funny
Speaker 5: at all, is that Patricia Wolfe agrees to put a
Speaker 5: bug in a lamp that the authorities provide for her
Speaker 5: and puts it in their home. And within weeks you
Speaker 5: say that the big tough guy O'Neil comes by and
Speaker 5: he compliments her on the new lamp. So then the
Speaker 5: authorities then arranged for Patricia to get O'Neill a lamp
Speaker 5: outfitted the same way to listen to his private conversations,
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about this incredible opportunity and
Speaker 5: break they get with this bug in the lamp Patricia Wolf.
Speaker 6: The reason investigators managed to get her cooperation is that
Speaker 6: they clawed wind that there had been an active investing
Speaker 6: balance perpetrated against her by David Wolf. And so in
Speaker 6: the immediate aftermath of the battery to Patricia, investigators went
Speaker 6: and knocked in their gold and David wasn't there because
Speaker 6: this domestic violence and go wherever to gain her confidence,
Speaker 6: and she told him what Wolf was up to, what
Speaker 6: the club was doing. So they went and they because
Speaker 6: it was her home, they obtained the lamp and put
Speaker 6: an electronic beat dropping device in the lamp and had
Speaker 6: some investigators set up nearby with a van and they
Speaker 6: would listen to all the conversations. And as she said,
Speaker 6: you know, two weeks later, O'Neil comes over and says, well,
Speaker 6: it's really a nice lamp you got, boy, it's really special.
Speaker 6: So she went and told the investigators, and of course
Speaker 6: they went and found the same lamp and put a
Speaker 6: device in the lamp. And then next time O'Neil came
Speaker 6: over say, look I got an extra lamp. I'll give
Speaker 6: it to you, and he took it. He placed the
Speaker 6: lamp right in their clubhouse in Union Grove, Wisconsin. Of course,
Speaker 6: the investigators since it was O'Neill, and then they go
Speaker 6: get after she get a search war or a title
Speaker 6: three Warren to eavesdrop in the lamp because it wasn't
Speaker 6: there with his consent, But they got that and they
Speaker 6: were listening to all the conversations coming run out of
Speaker 6: the clubhouse. Eventually he took the lamp from the clubhouse
Speaker 6: and also put it in this home and Racine and
Speaker 6: so investigators were able to get a lot of information
Speaker 6: with the club's activity from this this lugging in the lamp,
Speaker 6: including the conversations with David Wolf and some of the
Speaker 6: other minions about some of the crimes are going to commit.
Speaker 5: Now David Wolf realizes that the word is is that
Speaker 5: there's an informant, and he realizes that it's likely his wife,
Speaker 5: and I think O'Neil realizes that it might be Wolfe's
Speaker 5: wife as well. So Wolfe is aware that what Patricia
Speaker 5: is doing, and so what does David Wolf do as
Speaker 5: a result of what his wife is doing.
Speaker 6: Well, the information first comes to light because the Outlaws.
Speaker 6: There's a man who is not a member of the
Speaker 6: all He's a member of the Association of Recovery Motorcyclist Armed.
Speaker 6: His name was Leslie Jack Jensen. He was Lacrosse, Wisconsin
Speaker 6: is the exact opposite of the state of Milwaukee, and
Speaker 6: he was in the eastern southwestern part of the state.
Speaker 6: Milwaukee's in the southwestern part of the state. Jensen had
Speaker 6: an ATF source. There were a couple agents and people
Speaker 6: involved with the ATF for some reason wanting to get
Speaker 6: close to the Allays. He can never really get the
Speaker 6: information out of the investigators not willing to share it,
Speaker 6: but they will say it was an ATF source passed
Speaker 6: information to Jensen that said that the two ault laws
Speaker 6: prospects that killed Mathias, that there was a female old
Speaker 6: lady of one of them who's providing information to the police.
Speaker 6: She was going to testify again them and O'Neil summons
Speaker 6: David Wolfe's the Union Robe clubhouse. He says, maybe outside
Speaker 6: the place is probably bugged and walking around the clubhouse,
Speaker 6: he tells him, look, he give him the whole story
Speaker 6: about what the foreman said about the possible snitch and
Speaker 6: Wolfe at the time realizes and this is my wife.
Speaker 6: But he doesn't want to hurt his wife. It's more
Speaker 6: or less he lets his slide. He knows that she's cooperating,
Speaker 6: but he doesn't tell O'Neil because he's fearfulf he tells
Speaker 6: O'Neil till Neil not only killed his wife, Neil will
Speaker 6: kill him because he's the one. Never he told o
Speaker 6: neil that he had told no one about the Massia's
Speaker 6: homicide and I'm sorry his wife knew about the homicide. Well,
Speaker 6: then he would lie. He O'Neil will know that he lied,
Speaker 6: so he never really retaliates against his wife. At one
Speaker 6: point in the investigation, his wife calls him up and
Speaker 6: she says, look, I have a a pager number or
Speaker 6: a US attorney. I want you to call it. And
Speaker 6: at the time he knew that that she was really
Speaker 6: in cooperating. The FEDS were involved, and he got so
Speaker 6: upset he said, no, true, she don't do it. He
Speaker 6: began to vomiting because he knew then that he's likely
Speaker 6: going to go away for a long time and that
Speaker 6: his wife had been cooperating the whole time, providing informations
Speaker 6: to FEDS. So there's an interesting story. But how this
Speaker 6: one woman really uh really caused a lot of trouble
Speaker 6: for the outlaws, and that how she was more or
Speaker 6: less trusted to be in this inner circle uh and
Speaker 6: provided a lot of information to the federal government that
Speaker 6: were used. Really the analyst at the indictments nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 5: You talk about that indictment. It started in nineteen ninety
Speaker 5: March nineteen ninety six, and Feds finally had the evidence
Speaker 5: to indict several club members, and you talk about what
Speaker 5: happens with this May nineteen ninety seven to fifty one
Speaker 5: page indictment of seventeen members. Eleven days later, a two
Speaker 5: hundred strong posse of local, state, and federal officers had
Speaker 5: rounded up all the fugitives except Randy the Jaeger, and
Speaker 5: they had and he had thirty four counts and it
Speaker 5: also included members from Illinois, Illinois and Indiana. And all
Speaker 5: these guys were facing twenty five to life. So tell
Speaker 5: us what that pressure does to most of these guys
Speaker 5: and who decide to plead guilty and who don't tell
Speaker 5: us more about this huge initiative, this fifty one page indictment. Finally,
Speaker 5: the nooses around the next of the outlaws tell us
Speaker 5: about that.
Speaker 6: But obviously Yeager was one of the outlaws, was indicted
Speaker 6: and he just happened to be in Las Vegas when
Speaker 6: the posse began looking for people with the warrants pant
Speaker 6: he got wind of it and eventually he fled to Mexico.
Speaker 6: But the other people died. There's only really five outlaws
Speaker 6: that really wanted to trial. The rest of them took
Speaker 6: guilty please. They were looking at significant times, including James
Speaker 6: Preacher Schneider, who has when Randall Miller killed Ruth Morris Dalgar.
Speaker 6: And also a person who wasn't indicted but was there
Speaker 6: was quin Our Crash Quint who provided testimony He would
Speaker 6: end up warring a wire when he got out of
Speaker 6: jail too. Most of the damning testimony was offered by
Speaker 6: either audio recording electronic recordings. They were members of the
Speaker 6: Outlaws themselves, and so the five rolled the dice. They
Speaker 6: figured they had nothing to lews decided to go to trial.
Speaker 6: Trial lasted about six six or seven weeks and all
Speaker 6: five were found guilty. Really the ones that really a
Speaker 6: media and the judge kind of looked at harshly. The
Speaker 6: most squirre O'Neil and the sentening judge at the time,
Speaker 6: JP scad Miller. He said he had in his time
Speaker 6: as a federal judge, he had never seen anyone who'd
Speaker 6: score so high in the US see guideline the thirty
Speaker 6: five is meant to get a life sentence. Oh neil
Speaker 6: scored fifty one, even got more than the leader of
Speaker 6: the Milwaukee mafia at the mid eighties scored higher as
Speaker 6: far as Randall Miller. The judge told him that he
Speaker 6: was richly deserving the death penalty and that Miller committed
Speaker 6: crimes that you only see like in a third world country. Ironically,
Speaker 6: he was spared of death penalty, not because of the
Speaker 6: judge because Milwaukee. The federal prosecutor in the Eastern District,
Speaker 6: wiscons at the time, Thomas Schneider, he was a person
Speaker 6: didn't believed the death penal and he promised not to
Speaker 6: charge anybody with any crimes as the results of death
Speaker 6: penalty inside the Eastern District in Wisconsin. So Miller, I'm
Speaker 6: getting life out to O'Neill and they're still locked up.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's incredible. Now you talk about in the last
Speaker 5: chapter just the outlaws presently, So what is the status.
Speaker 5: Now that they've again, they've again, do you say there's
Speaker 5: a they never go away. There's a new legion of
Speaker 5: people that want to become outlaws. So tell us what's
Speaker 5: happening with the Outlaws presently?
Speaker 6: Sure, Well, my book really ends at about two thousand.
Speaker 6: It's because as a historian, we believe that fifteen years
Speaker 6: must pass before usually something's considered history, not a current event.
Speaker 6: But I have knowledge the club and what happens just
Speaker 6: before the indictments came down. What they all laws is
Speaker 6: they had chapters at the state line, which has really
Speaker 6: it was a state line in james though they're really
Speaker 6: one of the same thing. They's called them the different
Speaker 6: chapters in the chapter in Milwaukee. Well, just prior of
Speaker 6: the indictments coming down, the all Laws recognize that Milwaukee
Speaker 6: chapters gonna be it pretty hard. They started establishing outposts
Speaker 6: around the state. Now we have all lot of chapters
Speaker 6: in Green Bay, Milwaukee, Jamesville, Peotia, state Line, Madison, Lacrosse,
Speaker 6: and Eau Claire. If you look at Wisconsin, it kind
Speaker 6: of makes a big u around the whole state because
Speaker 6: Wisconsin is one of the few states where there's no
Speaker 6: Hells Angels presence. There's Hells Angels in Minnesota, There's Hells
Speaker 6: Angels in Illinois, but not Wisconsin. This is more or
Speaker 6: less the out Laws last stand in Wisconsin as far
Speaker 6: as the Midwest coast. So the chapters are still there,
Speaker 6: they're still active. Part of the problem, though, they really
Speaker 6: kind of nipped the problem in the butt with the
Speaker 6: Outlaws was the passage of the USA Patriotarch for all
Speaker 6: its problems to search and seizure and kind of trampling
Speaker 6: the Fourth Amendment. One of the really good things of
Speaker 6: the Patriot Act was that it took a strong position
Speaker 6: on the use of explosives. For a person who puts
Speaker 6: the pipe bomb outside of house down someone's injured, that's
Speaker 6: a fifteen year minimum. If someone's it's twenty five years
Speaker 6: the life or death. And so the all Laws love
Speaker 6: they use explosives. That was their signature, and so they
Speaker 6: use of the Patriarch is really newter in that respect.
Speaker 6: The clubs are still out there. Read some of the
Speaker 6: recent literature out there by the former leader of the
Speaker 6: Chicago chapter. He claims that there's a lack of testastrum
Speaker 6: within the Outlaws and that Hell's Angels are in the
Speaker 6: process of taking him over in Illinois because they're more
Speaker 6: tech savvy. Dude is more trendy, and that he predicts
Speaker 6: it's going to be either another war with the Hell's
Speaker 6: Angels or the out Laws and become a second class
Speaker 6: in Illinois. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
Speaker 6: But still going on, it's still there. The leader of
Speaker 6: the All Laws claims that the federal indictments of all
Speaker 6: these club members and how much time you got has
Speaker 6: really been a deterrent from more criminal activity.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. I would think I want to thank you very
Speaker 5: much Michael for coming on and talking about You've got
Speaker 5: to be dirty. For those people that might want to
Speaker 5: follow this up to find out more about this, do
Speaker 5: a Facebook page. You have a website, tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit more about how people might contact you and
Speaker 5: find out more about this.
Speaker 6: Sure of a Facebook page, it's called predicate Acts, as
Speaker 6: in the Predicated Acts and racketuring. Also of a Twitter
Speaker 6: than the same Moniker Predicate Acts. You want to look
Speaker 6: at the book, The best place to get it is
Speaker 6: either at Amazon or aid books adebooks dot com. Those
Speaker 6: two places are the ones that generally sell the most.
Speaker 6: If you have any questions, please contact me Facebook I
Speaker 6: will have the answer any questions.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you very much Michael. It's been fascinating talking
Speaker 5: about you Got to Be Dirty, the history of the
Speaker 5: Outlaws Motorcycle Club. Thank you very much for this and
Speaker 5: you have a great day. Thank you, goodbye,