WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:02.600 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:02.919 --> 00:00:04.160 It beats listening to nothing. 3 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:09.960 Oh my goodness, being Frank, where the only way to 4 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:16.679 be is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to being Frank. 5 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:19.640 We're the only way to be is, of course, Frank. 6 00:00:20.120 --> 00:00:22.000 I'm your host, Frank Lebono, and i'd like to thank 7 00:00:22.079 --> 00:00:24.079 you for joining us on what we like to call 8 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:28.600 the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where no conversation is out of 9 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:32.359 bounds and all points of view are welcome. You know, 10 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:34.560 we record live to tape, so I give you the 11 00:00:34.679 --> 00:00:38.679 date and you have some relevance. It's Earth of July 12 00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:43.000 and it's blisteringly hot out. I hope everybody is listening 13 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:46.000 in the safety and the security of a well air 14 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:50.200 conditioned room as I am right now, because it's dangerously 15 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:53.240 hot out. Be that as it may. In a recent 16 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.759 article I wrote for the online publication Niak News and Views, 17 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:59.399 I was very critical of what I saw as a 18 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:04.439 capitulation of a major media corporation that is Paramount, the 19 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:08.599 parent company of CBS, to complete a multi billion dollar 20 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:14.719 merger with Trump supporter Larry Ellison's Skydance Media. Let's cut 21 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:17.680 to the chase. In my opinion, Paramount sold not only 22 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.879 its integrity, but it's very sole to make this happen. 23 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:25.159 In addition to settling a bogus charge the administration made 24 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:29.920 against CBS's news flagship program sixteen Minutes to the tune 25 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:34.439 of sixteen million dollars, the News division made other embarrassing 26 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:39.000 concessions that will shake the very foundations of journalistic integrity. 27 00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:43.200 The network canceled the Late Show with Stephen Colbert, citing 28 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:48.799 financial concerns despite its number one late night ratings. They 29 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:52.640 also agreed to review the company's DEI policies to bring 30 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:56.599 them more in line with the President's agenda. And it's 31 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:59.920 been made very clear by the President and this administration 32 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:03.359 and that he will continue to purge any media outlet 33 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:07.519 that challenges him or his agenda. The effect this is 34 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:10.800 already having on the First Amendment, not only with major 35 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.840 media outlets, but on individual freedom of speech as well, 36 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:18.840 is chilling. Perhaps one day even this show will be targeted. 37 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.080 Unless we do something, it will only get worse, and 38 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:24.840 once we lose the freedom of the press, freedom of speech, 39 00:02:25.479 --> 00:02:30.280 democracy will surely fail as well. Joining us now for 40 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:33.400 some intelligent conversation on how we got here and how 41 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:37.039 we be able to resist these draconian measures. Is one 42 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:42.159 of our favorite guests here on Being Frank. He's an author, composer, musician, 43 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:45.719 full professor of Mass Media and Communication at Fordham University. 44 00:02:46.039 --> 00:02:49.960 My colleague and friend. Welcome back, doctor Paul Levinson. 45 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:53.319 Well, I'm delighted to be here, Frank, and let me say, 46 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:58.360 I hope that the show is very soon attacked by 47 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:04.080 this fascist Trump situation that our whole country and world 48 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:07.639 is now and because that will bring this show some 49 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:11.680 more publicity, which is always a good thing. 50 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.599 Yeah, and that's very true, Paul's it's kind of saying, 51 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:19.039 but true. And you know, we found out and it's interesting. 52 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:24.120 I just saw a Fordham University graduate students presentation about podcasts, 53 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:27.439 and there's no question that the more controversial you can 54 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:31.240 be in the podcast, the more ears. I'm gonna say eyeballs, 55 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:34.360 but that's quite work, the more ears you have. So 56 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:37.120 it's not that we avoid controversy. We just prefer to 57 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:39.800 have it in the form of intelligent conversation. And I 58 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:43.080 do mean all points of view are welcome, but we 59 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:45.560 we take a particularly strong one. Paul, You and I 60 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:50.479 both as as journalists, teachers of journalism ET cetera, and 61 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.240 and mass media of the power of free speech. So 62 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:59.080 let's let's put this in a broader context, if you will. 63 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:04.319 You know, now he's attacking the big guys. Okay, the CBS, 64 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:08.240 this rumor. Now he's gone after George Stepanopolis of ABC, 65 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:11.319 so they're all being lined up. Jimmy Fallon has been 66 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:14.680 rumored next after Colbert. Put this in some kind of 67 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:17.439 context for us, Paul, if you would, has this ever 68 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:18.800 happened before in this country? 69 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:22.759 Even Well, that's an excellent question, because I was going 70 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:27.079 to say, and this is a good beginning of an 71 00:04:27.079 --> 00:04:31.240 answer to the question that back in the Watergate era, 72 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:36.920 when Nixon was doing his best to squelch the press, 73 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:42.199 and it was everything from not wanting to see the 74 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:49.040 Pentagon papers published all across the board CBS in particular, 75 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:54.560 with Walter Crokid as the anchor, that in the early 76 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:58.759 nineteen seventies, in a poll, a gallop Pole was found 77 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:03.000 to be the most trusted person in America. CBS in 78 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:10.839 particular was cited by scholars and then by historians as 79 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:18.040 indicating how powerful the communications media were in this country 80 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:23.000 that in a battle between a corrupt president of the 81 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:27.399 United States in those days, Richard Nixon, but still having 82 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:31.759 all the awesome power of the presidency and many of 83 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:38.199 his Republican flunkies in Congress behind him. All that power, 84 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:43.480 couldn't stand up to the media, couldn't stand up to CBS, 85 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:47.040 couldn't stand up to the New York Times, couldn't stand 86 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:55.199 up to the Washington Post. And now that's right changed 87 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.319 horrendously the Washington Post. And we've talked about this before. Yes, 88 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.480 we have democracy dies in darkness. That was their motto 89 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.560 that Jeff Bezos put out there when he purchased the 90 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:13.519 Washington Post. And what happened even before Trump took office 91 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:19.160 just months ago. You know, Bezos was right up there 92 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:26.199 with all the other captains of media industry, Zuckerberg, you know, 93 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:28.560 you can just go down the list. They were all 94 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:34.639 there at the inauguration and donated god knows how much 95 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:38.480 money did Trump And why did they do that, because 96 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.759 each and every one of them are cowards, because they 97 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:46.480 were afraid that Trump would come after them. Now, CBS, 98 00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:51.839 you know wasn't there, but CBS you could have predicted this. 99 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:59.079 If Trump and his MAGA base are able to pressure 100 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:04.720 made your newspapers and major social media to tow the line, 101 00:07:05.279 --> 00:07:09.160 it's just going to be an amount of time, weeks 102 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:15.040 months before that same fascist juggernaut begins to attack other 103 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:20.360 major media. So no one was surprised that this pressure 104 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:23.160 would be put on CBS and all of the major 105 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:28.279 media and universities as well, by the way, like Harvard 106 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:31.360 and Columbia, et cetera. I mean, this is a major, 107 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:37.279 major crackdown on freedom. But what is surprising and what 108 00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:42.480 I am profoundly disappointed in, and what Eric Severid and 109 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:50.480 Walter Krackheit, everyone who basically stood up to fascism in 110 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:53.519 the McCarthy era. We're talking about Edward R. Murrow, if 111 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:57.279 you go back to the nineteen fifties, but through the 112 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:04.680 decades where the ballwork of American democracy, each and every 113 00:08:04.759 --> 00:08:08.680 one of them now is slowly beginning to crumble to 114 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:13.839 the pressure that Trump is giving them. And so I 115 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:18.839 was horrified when I I mean, you mentioned some of 116 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:22.279 them already. You know they basically cover it up. Well, 117 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.759 you know, the Lake Show wasn't doing that well. You know, 118 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.319 ratings aren't that good. Yeah, that's been true for like 119 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.439 five six years, that's been true for ten years as well. 120 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:36.320 Viewership has changed. I mean the market has changed, so 121 00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:39.639 the way late night TV is going to be viewed 122 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.960 is being viewed has changed. I think it's the timing, Paul, 123 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:48.120 that's particularly egregious. You know, you would connect dots here 124 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.320 and it's not so hard to go from one dot 125 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:53.080 to the other to realize what's happening here. 126 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.039 Well, yes, that's one hundred percent right, and so that's 127 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.519 why I was saying, Yeah, we know that viewership has declined. 128 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:03.759 That's been happening to broadcast television ever since streaming and 129 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.200 social media became so important. That's media evolution in action. 130 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.679 You know. Not as many newspapers are in existence today 131 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.240 as were one hundred years ago, and that was because 132 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:20.840 of the rise of radio. So new media always crowded 133 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:27.000 out older media. All media compete for our human patronage. 134 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:30.000 But that has been happening for a while, and to 135 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:33.720 use that as an excuse to end the Late Show 136 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:38.840 is really just a thinly veiled attempt to disguise what 137 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:44.000 really happened, which you correctly pointed out. There was a 138 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:50.399 merger underway between Paramount, which is the parent company of 139 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:57.840 CBS and Skydance, owned by a vehement Trump supporter and 140 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:06.440 much wanted to make sure that somehow the Trump jargonaut 141 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.600 couldn't get in the way of that. The FCC, by 142 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:15.240 the way, was the federal agency that finally okayed the merger. 143 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:20.000 It is run by just a simple vote of all 144 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:25.240 the members on the FCC, and unfortunately it now has 145 00:10:25.320 --> 00:10:30.559 a majority of commissioners who are Trump favorable. And this 146 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.559 gets to another thing that I've been talking to you 147 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:36.759 and everybody about for as long as I can remember. 148 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:42.200 The FCC was unconstitutional from the day that it was 149 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:47.240 created back in the nineteen thirties. It was a blatant, 150 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:51.879 obvious violation of the First Amendment, Congress Shall make no law. 151 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.399 A bridge and freedom of speech or the press. Those 152 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.440 are the two things that typify radio, just as they 153 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.799 do this podcast. And you would think that would have 154 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:04.559 been an easy thing for people to understand back in 155 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:08.960 the nineteen thirties. And although I'm a great fan of FDR, 156 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.000 that's one of the few things that he did that 157 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:15.879 was very, very wrong, and it's still damaging the country 158 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:20.879 to this very day, as indicated by their approval now 159 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.120 of the Paramount Skuydance merger. 160 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:24.559 How is it justified? 161 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:25.000 Paul? 162 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:27.679 I mean, you know, as you mentioned a brilliant man 163 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.840 and president overall, but none of us being perfect, of course, 164 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.240 But how is it justified then, and how has it 165 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.440 continued to be justified? 166 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:43.240 The way fascism is always justified is people need protection. 167 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:50.720 People want someone to take care of them. People want safety, security, 168 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:56.519 and they prefer a government that could give that to them, 169 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:02.240 even if it means curtis telling their freedoms. There was 170 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.440 a great book written shortly after World War Two by 171 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:10.799 Eric From. He was a Freudian psychologist, the titles Escape 172 00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:16.279 from Freedom. From was trying to understand how fascism could 173 00:12:16.279 --> 00:12:21.120 have arisen and taken such a hold on Germany, which 174 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.240 previously had been a democracy. 175 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.960 An educated popularists, overall high standard of living, although they 176 00:12:27.960 --> 00:12:31.240 were struggling through the depression in the history of it, Yes. 177 00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:37.440 That's right, and From's conclusion was very chilling, but very true, 178 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:43.720 and it was that many adults want to be children. 179 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:49.960 They don't want the responsibility. Ironically, they want people to 180 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:52.840 tell them what to do. And if you asked them, 181 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:54.679 they would say, no, I want freedom, I want to 182 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.559 do whatever I want. But that's actually not what in 183 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:00.919 their deepest heart, and so they really want they crave 184 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:07.840 the security and protection that little children have from their parents. 185 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:12.559 And you know, it's understandable in a Freudian sense, and 186 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.879 there's nothing even wrong with that. But the problem is 187 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:20.159 it spills over into politics, and when it does that, 188 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:25.200 it elects people who they're not present. They're the few, 189 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:30.240 they're the leader, they're the father of the country, and 190 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:33.679 you're supposed to get the same kind of feeling of 191 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:38.679 security and confidence and safety that you had as a 192 00:13:38.720 --> 00:13:42.440 five or six year old with your own parents. That 193 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:45.360 was Eric Frum's analysis. I think he was right on. 194 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.399 You know, Paul, and you know, I see a lot 195 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.799 of perils here China, and I was in China in 196 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:56.120 the nineties and that it really struck me of the overall, 197 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:00.039 particularly in the cities, the high quality of life. But 198 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:02.960 there's a trade off there. It says if the government 199 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:08.159 says to them, look, part of the history of China 200 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:12.720 has been starvation billions of through the years through poor government, 201 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.279 et cetera. So they kind of made a deal said, look, 202 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.159 we can prevent that from happening and giving and give 203 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.799 you an overall very high quality of life. The cities 204 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:25.919 are beautiful, Tira glass towers, et cetera. But in exchange, 205 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:29.120 don't ask us how we're doing it. Okay, you want 206 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:31.120 you don't want to know, so don't ask. 207 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:36.039 Yeah. Look, in China, it's almost a question of which 208 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:40.559 do you prefer food or freedom? And you know, I 209 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:43.440 can even understand that. You know, you know, you can 210 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:49.120 live as a person whose freedom is eclipsed. You can 211 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.960 even live with very little freedom. You can't live too 212 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:57.879 long if you don't have enough change. But that's that's 213 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.639 why fascism, and this is why I get what's happening 214 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.480 in this country, the United States right now is so tragic. 215 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:11.080 But that's why fascism arose so quickly in China, in Russia, 216 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:14.759 you know, communism is a form of fascism. You know, 217 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:20.200 it's a dictatorial, totalitarian country because the people there were 218 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.240 just concerned with one thing. I want to live. I 219 00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.919 want to eat. Please, someone take care of me, make 220 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.480 sure I can do that. But we here in the 221 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:32.759 United States, thank God, have never been like that. We 222 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.960 have enough food to eat. Yes, we have problems, like 223 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:41.000 you know, every human being, every country has problems. 224 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.120 Poverty, hunger of food. So yes, that's right. 225 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:48.399 But the problem is, you know, the the Trump position 226 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:55.159 was able to connect with the grievances and dissatisfaction that 227 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:58.639 not a majority of Americans have, but a majority of 228 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.720 people who can their vote in the last election had, 229 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.440 And that's why, by the way, to look at the 230 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:11.639 political side of this, it doesn't matter what Trump does. 231 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:16.279 And this is again Eric Frump. If what you want 232 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.720 is a father to take care of you, and that's 233 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:23.480 such a primary thing, and that's literally what we want 234 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:29.240 in our government, it doesn't matter just about anything else 235 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.320 that he says and does. You're still going to love him. 236 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:35.240 He's still you're a parent. You're still going to rely 237 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:39.759 on him or could be her. And that's why this 238 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:43.519 is such a very dangerous thing, because it's not as 239 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:47.279 if Trump a chief power in a coup deta. You know, 240 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.480 we are a democracy. And as much as it pains 241 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:54.320 me to say this, Trump won the election in twenty 242 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:58.679 twenty two, Yeah, he won not only the electoral vote, 243 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:02.559 he won the popular vote. So Americans voted to him. 244 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.039 And the only way we can break out of this 245 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:10.519 is that if enough of those Americans realize this father 246 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:15.680 that I want is a monster and I don't want 247 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:20.119 to be in this totalitarian family anymore. 248 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.680 Well, Paull you know, there has been some resistance, and 249 00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.359 you know, we gave CBS a good bashing, and I 250 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.079 worked for them for twenty years. They saved my life 251 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:30.680 in a lot of ways. It was one of the 252 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.440 great privileges of my life to work for the news 253 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.720 department because of the integrity that I found there. I've 254 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.279 always stated that, and I always found that on that level, 255 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.759 the newsroom level, that was a great deal of integrity. 256 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.759 And so there has been pushedback, like, for example, we 257 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.839 mentioned sixty Minutes. Bill Owens, a legendary executive producer for 258 00:17:52.039 --> 00:17:57.359 sixty incredibly well respected journalist, man, producer, etc. At the 259 00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.799 end of April called it quits in protest. So there 260 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.240 are movement, but can that be effective? I mean, you know, 261 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.880 you understand it and frustration, and it certainly makes a statement. 262 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:13.599 It makes a statement, but where does it really leave us. 263 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:20.640 Ultimately, I don't actually endorse resigning as a way to 264 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:24.519 counter a fascist enemy, because all that does is it 265 00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:29.160 leaves the playing field more open to that enemy to do, 266 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:34.119 in this case, his damage to the country. So I'm 267 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.160 sorry that he resigned. Had I been in his place, 268 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:39.480 I wouldn't have resigned. If they want to fire me, 269 00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:42.279 fire me, but I would have spoken out. I would 270 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:46.680 have tried to get sixty minutes to even talk more 271 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:51.640 about the dangers of Trump and his policy to this country, 272 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:54.640 and then let CBS fire me if they have to. 273 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:57.839 But that's just my opinion. And you know, I can 274 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.119 understand why a person feels in the case he can't 275 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:05.240 work any more for this organization. But I think that 276 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.799 what everyone does need to do, and I think it's 277 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.240 great therefore, for a variety of reasons that you have 278 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.559 this podcast, But what we're talking about today is an 279 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.400 especially crucial and important reason. The best thing that any 280 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:24.680 of us can do is to use whatever media we 281 00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:29.640 have access to, whatever groups of people will listen to 282 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:33.640 our voices, to make these points that you and I 283 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.960 are now talking about. So I'm glad that I'm a 284 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.480 professor at Fordham University. I've never been more happier in 285 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:45.640 my life than I've been these last couple of years 286 00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:52.000 that my day job is going into a university talking 287 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.960 to students, discussing their opinions, my opinions, giving them some 288 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.559 of the history. And by the way, like you, in 289 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:04.759 my clas all opinions are welcome. It's not that some 290 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.160 opinions are right and some opinions are wrong. It's that 291 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.400 your opinions need to be thought through, supported by evidence 292 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:18.519 rationally developed, and that I think the more people that 293 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:22.119 do that, that think through what they're doing, and the 294 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.680 more people who are talking about that, I think that 295 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.720 that is the best response to these kinds of attacks. 296 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:34.400 And that's why it is so disturbing that Columbia University 297 00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:39.319 gives in to Trump. I saw some news just yesterday. 298 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:41.480 I mean, so many things are happening, it's really tough 299 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.519 to keep up that Harvard was saying something like maybe 300 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:47.160 they can work some kind of deal out with Trump 301 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:50.880 for some kind of payment. And Harvard was one of 302 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:55.319 the leaders in the resistance of universities. So I don't 303 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:58.799 know enough about that to really comment on it. I 304 00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:02.240 don't know why Harvard's said that, but I'll certainly say 305 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:05.680 I hope it's not that Harvard in any way is 306 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:09.240 going to cooperate with the government. The Trump government doesn't 307 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:13.880 like DEEI to damn bet, you know, that's what Harvard 308 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.279 University wants to do. It doesn't matter whether the government 309 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.400 wants it or not. And you know, if you don't 310 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:24.480 like the DEI then go to court and basically, you know, 311 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:28.759 say that Harvard University is discriminating against, you know, one 312 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:33.079 group of people to give an advantage to other underprivileged, 313 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.119 underserved groups of people. That's the way you do it. 314 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:40.960 You don't give into a totalitarian dictate by the government. 315 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.160 The last thing we need in this country is a 316 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:51.759 federal government that controls what universities teach, what broadcasters talk about, 317 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:57.079 what newspapers publish. You know, that is basically a checklist 318 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:00.519 of moving from democracy to fascist. 319 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:03.119 You know, Paul Is, there was something in there that 320 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:05.319 I want to develop a little bit because and we've 321 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:07.880 talked about it before, and you brought Tom Cooper on 322 00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.480 whose book you published, and then Quentin Langley also came 323 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:14.359 on with this book about business ethics. And I think 324 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.880 a recurring theme that's important that you mentioned again here 325 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:24.359 is personal responsibility. That every person has a responsibility for 326 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.880 finding the truth, respecting the truth, sharing the truth, and 327 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.880 not everybody does. As you mentioned it, people what they 328 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:37.079 call it pablem fed. I think it's the term people 329 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:40.279 like to be, as you mentioned, taking care of Sometimes 330 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.039 it's harder, and I want to get into it a 331 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.000 little bit after the break I want to get to now. 332 00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.559 But you know, part of it, of the AI thing 333 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:50.519 is that one of the things that can often make 334 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:54.200 it so seductive is people want to believe it. Okay, 335 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:59.519 it satisfies their narrative, so you know they but they 336 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.319 have to take more responsibility. So talk a little bit 337 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:05.720 more about how important it is, especially in the age 338 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:07.759 of immediacly you press a button and if we don't 339 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:11.200 get an answer in five seconds, we're pissed off. Too slow? 340 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.599 What's about it with my computer? How do we balance 341 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:19.200 that massive amount of information with the amount of personal 342 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:22.279 responsibility that we should have towards it. 343 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:28.279 Well, everyone has feelings, obviously, and I think there are 344 00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:32.599 many Americans who are not happy with what they're seeing. 345 00:23:32.920 --> 00:23:36.720 On some level. They know it's not good that universities 346 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:40.240 are being pressured to follow what the federal government is 347 00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:45.200 telling them to do, that that newspapers are caving into Trump, 348 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.720 all the things that we've been talking about, broadcasters and 349 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:53.799 so on. And I think the way to being a 350 00:23:54.000 --> 00:24:00.960 more responsible citizen starts is pay attention to those feelings 351 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:06.559 that you have that something is not right, and rather 352 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:09.880 than suppressing that and putting it out of your mind, 353 00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:11.599 I don't really have time to deal with that. I 354 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:14.680 have to do this that my business, my family, whatever. 355 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:20.799 Don't bury them and push them aside, give them a voice, 356 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.599 and I think once that begins happening, then you can 357 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:29.559 begin to see more clearly how you can, with whatever 358 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:35.480 resources you possess, to fight this battle. And you know 359 00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:40.440 you mentioned Tom Cooper and my company, Communicated Editions to 360 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:44.480 publishing company that my wife and I actually started back 361 00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:49.920 in the nineteen eighties and we're rekindling it now. One 362 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:54.319 of the reasons why I decided to publish Tom's book 363 00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:57.799 is it's not a political book really at all. I mean, 364 00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:01.440 there's some political implications in there. It's about Harold Innis 365 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:04.680 and Marshall mclullan. Wisdom Weavers is the name of it. 366 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:07.400 But one of the reasons why is there is a 367 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:12.400 political lesson in there. And I'm not saying that Connected 368 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:17.799 Editions is only going to publish books with political lessons, 369 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:22.559 where we're going to be publishing a science fiction novel, 370 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:29.400 Song of the Unsung Mushroom in January and currently preparing 371 00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:32.000 that now, so you know, some things won't have anything 372 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:35.839 much to do with politics. But as a publisher I 373 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:39.319 realized I was getting yet another voice in addition to 374 00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:41.920 being an author, in addition to being someone who has 375 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.920 a podcast, an addition to being on your podcast and 376 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.440 any podcast that he'll have me. Of course, I realize 377 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.720 I can also publish other people's works, and that helps 378 00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:54.599 get ideas out as well. And for everyone it's a 379 00:25:54.640 --> 00:26:00.880 different combination of things. But we've seen the brendous results 380 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:07.359 of fascism in Nazi Germany and Communist Russia and with Putin. 381 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.000 Even though the Soviet Union still doesn't exist, it's certainly 382 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.599 a resurgence of fascism. And you know, Frank, if you've 383 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:19.400 interviewed some people who are actually in Ukraine and have 384 00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:24.039 been witnessed to the depredations that the Russians have been 385 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:30.720 raining down on those democratic people. So the thing to 386 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:38.359 do is realize that in this country we're not there 387 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:41.319 yet at all. We're still a long way from that. 388 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:45.079 We're on the way to getting there. But if every 389 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:51.400 person who has some way of countering that acts upon that, 390 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:54.839 I think that that will help them. And let me 391 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.799 just know any of something about AI. I don't think 392 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:02.319 we need to cringe and be afraid of AI and 393 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:07.559 run away from it. All media are knives or they 394 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.359 are two edged swords. What is a knife? It can 395 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.680 be used to cut food, is something that a surgeon 396 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.960 can use to save someone's life, to make someone healthier. 397 00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:23.440 But in the hands of a murderer or you know, 398 00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:27.880 a lunatic, a knife can be a very dangerous weapon. 399 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.240 So we sometimes expect like new inventions to be nothing 400 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:37.119 but good, and that's never the case. You know, are 401 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.519