Speaker 1: The paranormal, zufos, monsters and mysteries that you're listening to
Talking Weird, and now from a Kevin deep in the
northwards your host, Doctor Dean Bertram.
Speaker 2: Who.
Speaker 3: Greetings on my weirdos and weird ads. Welcome to Talking
Weird on the Untold Radio Network. I'm your host, Dean Bertram,
and as always I'm delighted that you've decided to join
me tonight. Where you're watching us live on one of
the platforms that it goes out on most noticeably of course, YouTube,
or perhaps you're listening and watching to it, watching it
where it's archived there later, or perhaps you're listening to
the audio only version of the show, which drops every
Friday on every audio podcast platform pretty much on the planet.
Regardless of greetings, I'm so glad you're here. I'm super
deeper excited about tonight's guest, so I'm going to get
to you in a minute. He's one of my favorite
guests I've ever had on Talking Weird. He also appears
in my documentary both the short The Shave of Mystery
and the upcoming feature The Man who Invented Flying Sources,
which I've all been listening to me talking about now
for a number of years. We're slowly getting there to
finishing the feature, but if you want to see the short,
you can this weekend, where we've had almost a two
year run on the festival and paranormal convention circuit with
the short now, and this weekend I'm going to be there.
I will be both introducing the film at the Contact
Medalities Expo, which runs May first to third in Delevan, Wisconsin.
We're actually screening on the Saturday, and I'll be following
the talk with or the following the film, which I'll
introduce with I suppose my talk or my presentation on
what I call The Shaver Mystery Part two, because while
the film deals primarily with the Shaver Mystery and its
heyday in the pages of Amazing Stories, the mystery did
not stop there. It continued and evolved and when in
all kinds of weird and wonderful places. And that's why
I talk about in my presentation. So if you can
get along the Contact Modalities Expo this weekend and Delivan, Wisconsin,
please do. You can find it pretty easily online. It's
just contactmodalitiesxpo dot com. Although the expo is spelt without
an E, so it's contact modalities xpo dot com. And
if you use my name, I believe there's a place
where you can enter a coupon code. If you use
my first name, Dan D E A N. You can
get discounted tickets to the Expert. I'll be there all weekend.
If you're a listener of the show, please come and
say hello to me, because I always love meeting folks
at places like this, And if if you're into the
paranormal or the weed, or the unusual, or the strange,
or UFOs or anything these type of places, places you've
met make literally lifelong friendships, so please come along and
hang out. Is going to be an awesome weekend. Now
I get to my guest tonight, which again I'm so
excited to have him. He's a librarian, a curator, an
author whose research focuses on UFO culture, science fiction, religion,
and book history. So you can see where I'm so
happy I'm getting to talk to him tonight. His past
work includes books and theology and science fiction, curating exhibitions
on Edgar and Poe and Mark Twain, and working as
part of the editorial team for Philip K. Dick's Exegesis,
which is an incredible book. I'm met such a fan
of that book as well. And last year he published
another book I'm a massive fan of. It's just incredible,
The Sorceria UFOs Men in Black and the Unbelievable Life
of Gray Barker with the Mit Press, which of course
is a biography of the controversial ufological tricks to Grey Barker.
His latest book, Behold the b a Myth The Collected
Poems of Grey Barker, was released earlier this year and
is also absolutely fantastic and at any rate, I'm delighted
to welcome back to Talking Word, Gabrielle McKee.
Speaker 2: I do know, it's great to be back. Thanks for
having me, man.
Speaker 3: It's so good to have you here. It's funny because
we're in a space, or at least I'm in a
space where I don't often, at least on the show,
get to talk to people who are working more in
the cultural historical analysis part of the field. So it's
great when I can get to talk to somebody who
shares similar interests in that capacity as I do, because
it doesn't happen on talking with that often. But before
we get into the book, which again I love. We've
talked about the Sassarian last time and year on, and
we're going to talk about Behold the b Myth tonight.
Maybe for those people who aren't familiar with Gray Barker,
because uphology is so a historical we just seem to
forget things which happened even a year ago. Let no,
and you know, back at the dawn of saurc of them.
Maybe could you give a bit of an overview and
I'll give you the stage and you can you can
let our audience know who don't know who Gray Barker is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, So.
Speaker 4: Entire life in West Virginia, and he was one of
the true ogs of the flying saucer world. He was
the publisher of The Saucian, which was not quite the
first but definitely one of the first flying saucer fanzines,
which had its first issue in nineteen fifty three, so
in that very very early wave of people kind of
publishing about flying saucers. He is probably best known for
his book They Knew Too Much about Flying Saucers, which
is kind of the origin of the Men in Black
story or stories plural perhaps, And he became he was
an author who was active into the nineteen eighties and
kind of for my purposes. Maybe even more importantly, he
was also a publisher, so he wasn't just writing his
own books, but he was publishing other people's books, and
he really was specializing in kind of.
Speaker 2: The weirdest books of the era.
Speaker 4: So he's definitely kind of a figure of yesterday year
in the UFO world, but I think really a foundational
figure in a lot of ways, both in terms of
the stories that he was telling and sharing, but also
the kind of way that he was shaping the rhetoric
of how people even write about stories like this in
ways that are kind of hard to trace, but kind
of once you see the links, you kind of see
his fingerprints in a lot of places.
Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for your work. The new book is well,
Behold the Beam, but the Sorcyrian, because there hadn't been
any great academic work on Baki yet. There'd been some
decent documentaries, but documentaries have to you know, there's only
so deep a film can go in a minute, you
know now and thirty minutes, Well, your book The Assyrian
goes so deeply into Barka and into how important he
was in euthology, and it really paints a fantastic picture
of his role in mid century euthology, and he was
such an important figure. What I drew you to Baco
originally Gabriel.
Speaker 4: So what originally drew me to him was the books
that he published. So I had worked on a book
and I think it was actually ten years ago now
called Flying Saucers Are Real, which is kind of an
art book of books from the collection of Jack Womack,
who's an author but.
Speaker 2: Also a collector of weird books.
Speaker 4: So this was his UFO and Flying Saucer book collection,
and my job at the time involved cataloging his book collection,
and so I had access to this incredible collection of
your Flying Saucer books. The Flying Saucers had not been
something that I had been super interested in up to
this point.
Speaker 2: But.
Speaker 4: Seeing the books in that collection, the ones that jumped
out at me the most had this West Virginia imprint
on them of Saucerian books, and just in terms of
the aesthetics of them, the titles, the covers, the content,
they all really kind of grabbed me. And just the
fact that he was really focused on the most out
there stories of the period at a time when a
lot of people like you know, the Donald Keyhos of
the UFO world, were really focused on, you know, the
kind of most ironically down to earth of flying Saucer stories,
the ones that he felt he could kind of convince
the most people with Grave Barker didn't care about any
of that. He wanted to tell a great story.
Speaker 2: And the weirder the better.
Speaker 3: That comes through. Also in in your new book, and
a number of the poems or a number of the
writings in Behold the Bemouth He'll he'll and because his
extracts from some of those Sorcrian magazines as well as poetry,
and as well as extracts I think from they knew
too much about flying sources. But he'll be saying how
outrageous all of this is, But then say, but I
believe it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, and yeah. And there's you mentioned the
two documentaries about him, both of which I love. I
drew on both of them for the biography. They kind
of were inspirational in a lot of ways and in
telling the story of his life. And they both mentioned
the fact that that he wrote poetry and also one
of the reasons that his that he's had such a
legacy is because he is such a good writer. His
his prose books have they're really well written, and they
have these kind of moving poetic passages. He has lots
of kind of rhetorical tricks that he that he does
to really draw the reader in. And so the fact
that he wrote poetry was kind of known and and
and out there through those documentaries and a couple tiny
snippets of his poetry that have been published. But in
doing the research for the book, So Barker's archive is
in the the Waldemore, which is a local history center
in Clarksburg, West Virginia, which as Grey Barker's archive, which
is extensive. It has all of his correspondence, his book collection,
most but not quite all of the things that he published,
and all of his unpublished poetry. And so really getting
to access that material, I really saw the way that
he was a poet first.
Speaker 2: So his earliest poetry goes back to his childhood, and
he was really.
Speaker 4: Interested in the power of language and how to kind
of hook someone, to make them laugh, to make them scared,
all using just words. And he really kind of cut
his teeth with writing poetry to do those things.
Speaker 3: I've always said, and not just when you're on here
and we're talking about Baka, but just many times throughout
the years of doing this show and on other people's shows,
and just in general conversations that so much of UFO
literature it just isn't written well a great read. But
Barker's stuff. I think Barker and Keel and Palmer were
probably all three people who were so good at their
trade that when you read stories or articles or you know,
full books written by any of those men, they grip
you from the beginning until the end. These people were
They could have written in any field and they would
have been interesting. I don't think you can say that
about many authors in the flying source of fields. Certainly.
I can't think of anybody today. Well, there are people
I enjoy reading Greg Bishop's great, Joshua Cutchin's great, but
they're people who are a little more analytical rather than
writing just in the space and telling the stories. You know,
their work's almost academic to a degree. But people writing
in the space there just isn't. Those people who had
this incredible grasp of the English language and how to
spin words, and that's one of the reasons they love
Behold the be the c Gray's development, you know, as
a writer poetically and with the other, with the other,
the other extracts that are in there, and you're when
you're reading, you're very conscious that you're not reading somebody
who's just a stand How did youufologist? You know, it's
a whole different kettle of fish when you read BAKA.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Virtually all of the people you named, I think started
as writers first and then got interested in UFOs or
whatever other odd topics a little later in life. I'd
add to that list Whitley Strieber, who I think is
also a stunning writer. And the course started as a
novelist and you know, some very well received novels prior
to having any of the weird experiences that he later
came to be known for. I think Gray Barker's the
same way. He had not really published as much as
as a Ray Palmer or a John Keel prior to
writing for his own zine, This auc Arian, but he
had done a bit. He had written actually a really
funny series of articles for a magazine, like a trade
magazine for motion pictures, because he was a involved in
motion picture presentation, you know, theater management and things, and
he wrote a really funny series of articles about how
to run a projector that it's you know, it's a
kind of mad magazine style approach. So he had done
a bit of other writing prior to that, but most
of the writing that survives from before the Sauce area
and by him is in the form of poetry.
Speaker 2: And so one.
Speaker 4: Of the big discoveries that I made in doing research
on him was outside of his archive at the there's
a West Virginia Regional History Center at the University of
Morgantown in West Virginia that has the manuscript of his
poetry from college. So it's a book called who Knows,
which is basically all the poetry that he wrote well
he was at Glenville State University. He donated that to
the college library when he graduated, and they in.
Speaker 2: Turn passed it on to this regional History center.
Speaker 4: And what's really interesting is I discovered in the archive
he did not seem to have kept a copy of this,
So the one that he gave to Glenville seems to
be the only copy that survived, and that forms the
first section of Behold the Behemoth. It's his own collection
of poetry from when he was about twenty one years old.
Speaker 3: And before we get to the euthological poetry, which we will,
I know, there's a wonderful piece, I believe it's in
that section, which is so atmospheric. It's about walking around
the campus at not so I'm guessing that's from his period.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, so he was the editor of his college newspaper,
the Glenville Mercury, which there are scans of online and
you can read all of what he was writing for that,
And yeah, there's this one piece that he wrote for
it that's just kind of a I consider it a
prose poem, which is why I included it in the volume,
where he's just describing, you know, a walk through the
campus on a cold night, and really it's really kind
of powerful writing.
Speaker 2: You know, he's young.
Speaker 4: It's not the most polished thing, but it has some
really nice images and really great atmosphere, and it's exactly
the kind of thing you see him doing when he's
writing about flying saucers a few years later.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that's one of one of the things
I found very interesting about the book was there were
poems where you could see Barker's different lives because he
lived different lives converge. Like there's a poem where he's
talking about I should have written down the tilet but
that you'll know it. There's a poem where he's talking
about about about film and in it he mentions everybody
from you know, Austin Wells and he's talking about Bing Crosby,
and he's you know, talking about all various stars and
directors and studio heads like you know Xanak and Louis
Meyer and all these people, and then at the end
he finishes talking about a Damski.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that is I think j Arthur Rank enters
into Hollywood, I think is the name of that one. Yeah,
he definitely had his foot in in the motion picture world.
He wrote a couple other poems that are that are
kind of movie based, including a couple kind of parodies
of the j Arthur Rank production of Hamlet, which he
was not a fan of, and he wrote some kind
of parodies of Shakespearean monologues about how boring it was
to sit there.
Speaker 2: In the theater.
Speaker 4: So yeah, he was definitely kind of drawing on movies,
and that I think was maybe what he in Parallel universe,
you know, Jim Moseley talks about how he was kind
of afraid to live anywhere but West Virginia. Says, you know,
maybe he could have lived in New York and been
you know, more more successful writer. I think there's another
world where he moved to California and became a movie producer.
Speaker 3: Just fantastic. We have an interesting question from Horace Smith,
who's been a guest on the show, and he's a
good friend of the show, a regular listener. He's also
professor emeritus of astronomy and Physics at Michigan State University,
and he asks how well did Barker's first book on
the in black sales? So he means they knew too
much about flying sources. How was that RECEIVEE gig?
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course it sold pretty well. It was not
quite a best seller, didn't make it to the New
York Times bestseller list. The publisher that put it out,
University Books, was a bit of an upstart publisher. It
was run by a guy named Felix Morrow who had
worked at one of the big New York publishing houses
and was kind of, you know, putting up his own shingle.
And it wasn't quite the first book that he put out,
but it was within the first one or two years
of that publishing house existing, so we didn't quite have
the reach of like a double day or something at
the time it sold. But it did see three printings
in its first edition. I believe those printings were five
thousand copies each, but I also turned up some evidence
that the third printing was remaindered. If you want to
know what that is. It was one of my favorite
pieces of information that I discovered, but you're going to
have to turn to the Sauce arean to find the
answer to that question. So I believe it sold probably
somewhere between you know, twelve and fourteen thousand copies, which
is pretty good, but is not you know, it wasn't
kind of making crazy waves in the mainstream publishing world.
I've done a bit of research on sales numbers for
Flying Saucer books in this period, and unfortunately it's really
hard to find hard numbers for anything, but we do
have access to, you know, the New York Times bestseller
List is kind of the gold standard for as far
as there is a gold standard for something where there's
no real numbers, but it's a good source of information
and you can really kind of see the kind of
waves of mainstream success for Flying Saucer books, and the
kind of last one had faded around nineteen fifty three,
and Barker's book came out in nineteen fifty six, so
it was it did pretty well for the time, but
I think it was really one of the last hardcover
Flying Saucer boks that sold well until the sixties when
there was kind of another bump.
Speaker 3: It certainly had an incredible influence on the way we've
viewed and talked about the UFO phenomenon scenes regardless perhaps
of it's still obviously had a degree of commercial success,
but I think its influence extends far beyond that monetary
you know, earnings of the time.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think you know, it didn't sell,
you know, two hundred thousand copies, but the people that
were reading it were much more likely to be people
who were engaged in the Flying Saucer world, and it
did have a big impact on them. And I think
the place that it had the biggest impact was on
how people write.
Speaker 2: And you really see.
Speaker 4: I mean other people, you know, Keiho had done a
bit of this, but you really see a kind of
playfulness with the language and the way that the story
is spun. That really becomes influential, you know, and that
you start to in any Saucer book that does well
at all in later years.
Speaker 3: No, I've always appreciated, like I said, Barker is writing
before and it interests me and I think we talked
a little bit about it last time, so we don't
have to go into see details now, But perhaps that
interplay or the influence of some of Ray Palmer's stuff,
like the idea there was the Shaver Mystery, which had
paved the way for a lot of this, And then
when he talks about what happened to Al Bender in
they knew much of they knew too much about flying sources,
it becomes the Bender mystery. So it seems like there's
a play on, you know, developing a new perhaps mystery,
which will you know, enthrall readers, the way that Palmer
an amazing had back in the back, maybe a decade beforehand.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And when he calls it the Bender mystery, he
is directly basing that on Palmer and the Shaver Mystery.
That is the specific sense in which he means the
word mystery there. But Yeah, he is definitely very influenced
by Ray Palmer. We know that he read The Coming
of the Saucers. He reviewed it in one of the
first issues of The Sauce Arean And so I think
the kind of mysterious figures in dark suits that we
see in that book definitely turn up later in a
bit more of a pointed way in Barker's work, for sure.
Speaker 3: I think Barker and perhaps just because of his background, well,
I mean he has, like he said, various lives, but
perhaps because he understood showmanship and he understood movies, he
understood what would make a good mythic tale in euthology,
so he was able to somehow, you know, go well,
this is the these are the points which are going
to make a mystery.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Maybe a lot of people wouldn't have been able to
gauge what to focus on in a book the way
that the Barker could well.
Speaker 4: And I think his origin in West Virginia is a
big part of it too, because that's a region where
folklore and scary stories are really deeply ingrained into the
way people live their lives and are brought up. And
so there's this one great letter that he wrote where
he's really it's as clear a picture of we have
as his early childhood as anywhere in this one letter.
And he's actually telling the weird stories that his family told.
So there's one about this kind of weird hairy monster
that his aunt saw. His other aunt claims to have
seen the devil in a field by her house, and
so these were stories that his family was telling. One
of them he actually published in an issue of Fate Magazine.
It's a story that his mother had told him about
a kind of mysterious premonition of her sister's death, and
he actually sent it into Fate under his mother's name
in I think nineteen fifty six or so.
Speaker 3: I might have that issue here because I've got the first,
like I've got it maybe the first seventy one hundred
issues of Faith, like through the Palmer Run and a
little beyond, you know. But he of course, also speaking
of Fate, he's a person who popularizes the flat Woods
Monster in the pages of Fate Magazine, right, like it's
the really it's the first real article we have in
the paranormal press. You know, it's from It's from Gray Barker.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, because the Flatwoods Monster sighting was just
a few miles from where Barker grew up. So flat
Woods is next to Sutton. He grew up in the
hills outside of Sutton essentially, and so it was basically
in his backyard where that occurred. So yeah, he that
was kind of what got him interested in flying saucers
in the first place. And I think it's fitting that
it's not just a standard saucer sighting, that it's this
weird monster you know that's associated with it and you
know better, better story to tell around the campfire. But yeah,
so he his first kind of national byline that we
know that we that we kind of remember because he
had written for some of these motion picture and the
education magazines in the later forties is The Monster and
the Saucer and Infate Magazine, which is a it's not
very long, I think it's four or five pages long
account of the Flatwood's Monster. And then he did a
much much longer version about a year later in the
first issue of The Sauce Arean.
Speaker 3: I love how again in the poetry in your wonderful book,
Behold the b Myth, how you see it's almost like
you have insights that you wouldn't have if this poetry
hadn't been discovered. It's just so funny to see him
talking about things which are kind of either personalities or
events which are euphologically legendary. And here like there's stuff
about you know, Karl Lende and the the the what's
the experiment called the Philadelphia Experiment, And there's things about
the strath Letter, and there's things about M. K. Jessip
and the Jessip stories. The Jessip poem which maybe you
can talk Quebec was mkjess was a significant figure in euphology.
It's both touching and also this really kind of mercenary
ending to that poem. I was really like wow when
I read that one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well would you like me to read that one?
Maybe I'll talk for a minute about who Jessup was
sure that'd be great. So jess MK Jessup or Morris K.
Jessup wrote a book that did probably about as well
as they knew too much about flying saucers did, which
is called The Case for the UFO, And he wrote
a couple other flying saucer books within a couple of
years after that, with kind of diminishing sales, diminishing returns,
and then in I believe nineteen fifty nine he committed suicide.
So he had had some trouble in his marriage, his
finances weren't doing well because he had really wanted to
go all in on being a writer, but you know,
the UFO thing was not going to get him there,
and so he had a lot of personal problems. But
some people in the Flying Saucer world saw this as
an opportunity to turn a tragedy into an enduring legend. So,
and I say some people, Gray Barker was person's number one,
two and three in that in a kind of making
this like, oh, well, he did he really die by
suicide or was this something more mysterious because he perhaps
knew too much? So there's a poem in this so
in a collection of poetry that Barker wrote in the
early sixties. It is actually probably my favorite section of
this book, though I think I've said that about a
couple other sections as well. But it's called a Portfolio
of Psychotic Verse, subtitle written World Drunk, and the poem
is called a cheap edition of Jessup. So I'll read
that one for you now.
Speaker 2: Tonight.
Speaker 4: I was thinking of about producing a cheap mimiographed edition
of MK Jessop's UFO and the Bible. I opened my
only remaining hardcover copy of this out of print book,
and it contained an inscription to Gray Barker from the
old man of upology, Morris K.
Speaker 2: Jessop.
Speaker 4: This indeed inspired old memories of ufology and what it
once was, and gave me real food for thought. Should
I shoot it offset at two dollars per page for
negatives or try to get some girl to check it
up on paper plates?
Speaker 3: Say so? Touching the beginning and then at the end,
it's just like this is you know, this is this
is the reality of what I do. But he's conscious
of it, which I think that self reflection, that awareness
in that poem is very telling.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's very, very conscious of the fact that what
he does is he takes other people's stories and exploits them,
and not just for money, because that it's kind of
the reason that people assume that he did things was well, well,
he could make a buck doing this, and I think
he lost way more money on flying saucers than he
ever made. It was a real passion for him, So
I think the exploitation is not so much a monetary
thing as an effort to turn small stories that might
be forgotten into enduring legends. So I kind of hinted
at this before with turning Jessop's death from a tragedy
to a legend. But there is this kind of mercenary
aspect of you are doing something different than we usually
do with you know, a friend who has died, if
instead of just remembering the good times, if you're trying
to turn them into something kind of bigger than they were.
I do think that Barker did that with love. I
think he would much rather think of Jessup as someone
who can go on and inspire new people to see
mystery in the world, even if it's a sinister mystery,
then to just be sad that his friend died.
Speaker 2: So it's but it's it's it's frat, it's frat.
Speaker 3: This is meant to be kind of a family network,
so we're not meant to swear on it, which makes
it difficult dealing with barkism most famous and perhaps his
greatest poem, at least for those of us interested in uphology.
But the poem, which is called Ufo, is a bucket
of I guess we'll say crap. Although it's the s
H I T word that book, isn't that That poem
is another example of him being so conscious that he's
engaged in this, this community or this this endeavor, which
to him he's aware of. So much of it is
just nonsense, but he's there in the midst of it.
And it's obviously the poem features, as I think you
mentioned in the book, very very significantly in the Shades
of Gray documentary, there's a wonderful moment when an arraider
reads it. But it's such a powerful poem, and there's
few people, I think ever in the euthological field who
had that kind of level of self awareness.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and his poetry is where he really, I think,
more than anywhere else, even in his court than in
his correspondence, kind of gives hints of what maybe he
quote unquote really believed. I have issues with that phrase
because I think it's way more complicated than that for
Gray Barker especially, but I think also for a lot
of people. One of the reasons that he that we
kind of see so much behind the veil in the
poetry is that almost all of this material was only
ever shared with Jim Moseley. So, Jim Moseley the editor
of Saucer News, an Barker's best friend from about nineteen
fifty four till his death, and they both have had
a kind of less than than fully reverent approach to
the Flying Saucer subject. Jim Moseley was somebody who was
very much stirring the pots in Saucer News and interested
in in being very controversial and making people mad because
then they would write him letters that he could publish
and and didn't believe what. You know, the bulk of
people in the Flying Saucer world believed he had his
own ideas and he was not gonna going to be
swayed by by what was popular. And so Barker, uh,
you know, shared his shared the poetry with him, and
the poetry that's about UFO and related topics specifically. You know,
he's he's throwing a damn Ski's name out there and
mentioning the Straight Letter because Jim Mosley is the one
guy who knows exactly who those are and exactly what
Barker thinks of of those subjects.
Speaker 3: You know, I was fortunate, I'd probably told you before,
I was fortunate to meet Jim Moseley at a UFO
convention in Clearwater, Flora. I used to be a subscriber
to his sources sameir, and I was a big fan
of it, and so he agreed to meet me, and
we hung out for some time, and he was very generous.
We got drunk in a bar and he bought all
the drinks, you know, which was hilarious. There's very few
drunks I've had which were more enjoyable than that one
with Jim Moseley. But maybe you could tell people about that,
thea Strath letter and the scandal, and because it's such
a fascinating story, and then because there's poetry which references
that in the book as well.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, So the Straith Letter was a hoax that
was perpetrated by Barker and Moseley in nineteen fifty seven.
They got together one night. They had gotten their hands
on some legitimate government stationary, and some of it was
from the State Department a couple other places as well,
and they wrote a whole series of hoax letters to
various people in the UFO world, some of them some
of them they mailed, a couple they destroyed, and almost
all of them sank without a trace, but the one
that they sent to Georgia Dampski, A Dampski kind of
held up as proof that someone in the State Department
liked him. Somebody up there liked me. And you know,
this kind of became a tempest in a teapot for
a few months, but it started. There started to be
a little heat on Barker because some people successfully are
incorrectly identified him as the source of the letter, and
there were some rumblings that the FBI might be looking
into him. I was not able to find any proof
that the FBI actually spoke to him. The only place
where that was actually stated was in a letter that
Barker himself wrote. And I think anything that he is
writing you needed to have a bit of a grain
of salt with But he certainly, I do believe he
was investigated by the State Department because it was their
stationary and they to know, you know, who had gotten
it and how So eventually the story died down that
no one was ever prosecuted for it, but a few
years later it surfaced again in the UFO world because
Barker himself was publishing on it, saying I was framed.
So but one of the places that it recovered it
that it came back is in Barker's poetry. So if
you don't mind, I'll read the poem.
Speaker 3: Our e strait speaks I would love you too, So.
Speaker 4: This is in the voice of our streath. Well, it
is not the custom of our department to state our views.
I think I could say personally that I would like
you to drop in sometime for lunch in Washington. I
must say, however, in way of explanation, that a new
regulation prohibits are entertaining anybody but dignitaries and heads of state.
In view of this, I am certain you will not
be embarrassed.
Speaker 2: In picking up the check.
Speaker 3: It's so great.
Speaker 4: So many of his poems are our jokes there. Some
of them are are jokes with a clear punchline. I
think that one that one has a has a pretty
good punchline. Some of them seem like setups without a punchline.
Some of them seem like punchlines without a setup, but
I think they There is a kind of joking component
to a lot of his poetry here.
Speaker 3: Like I said, some of them, sometimes I'd be reading
it and I wasn't expecting it, and it'd be this,
you know, this, this kind of right angle turn, and
I'd be like it would be or would alternatively it
would be sad. All of a sudden, you go, wow,
this is there's some real potency here. We have another
wonderful question from Horace, and that is, have any of
Barker's poems been turned into songs or do they not
lend themselves to such a transformation. Maybe they were too
unknown up until now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question. So mostly he wrote a
kind of blank verse, so it doesn't tend to rhyme,
not you know, a deal breaker for for songs.
Speaker 2: Not all songs rhyme.
Speaker 4: He did write a couple of things that were intended
as songs. So there is a poem called the Three
Men in Black, which he wrote with one of his nephews,
and it was published in an issue of Saucer News
in the early seventies or late sixties, and so that
was kind of intended to be to be a song.
But for the most part, and some of the poems
are extremely short, some as short as one or two lines.
Some of the of the longer ones, you know, could
potentially be have some potential as songs, but the ones,
the ones that you know would make the most sense,
were kind of clearly intended to be to be songs
to begin with.
Speaker 3: Do you think do you think I mean, obviously I
think Back would be happy now if the New York
the book could come out. But at the time, do
you think he ever had an urge to publish his
poetry more widely or was he just happy for, you know,
for to have the small type of audience that he did.
Speaker 4: I think I think there were moments where he was
maybe interested in seeing some more of it get out there.
So some of the poems he was sending to friends
who had publications in hopes that maybe they would they
would print them, mostly in the kind of science fiction
fanzine world. So there are a couple of things in
the early period, and one or two of them actually
did see print in in science fiction fanzines. And then
there were a couple that got published by by Jim
Mosley and Saucer News. But for the most part, I
get the sense that it was really kind of a
private practice for him, kind of something to share with
with Jim Mosley, maybe with one or two other people,
but not necessarily something that that he saw any need
to share more widely than that.
Speaker 3: There. I mean, it's the posthumous. Things are always sad
in a way by nature. But also there's a reason
and rejoice that we have these poems. So I'm so
grateful that you you put all of this together. I
have a favor in the book which I don't want
to I'll leave my favorite tool later unless it happens
to be your favorites. Well, do you have a favorite?
Speaker 4: I mean, I have a couple, but but I think
there there is a reason that I called the book
Behold the Behemoth.
Speaker 2: So I had kind of seized on that.
Speaker 4: Poem as important and included it in my biography The Saucerian,
as something that that kind of embodied what I think
Barker's approach to all manner of weird subjects was, And
do you want me to read it?
Speaker 3: Or I would love you to, that'd be great.
Speaker 4: So behold the Behemoth, Behold the Behemoth. His form looms large,
and we say over and over again, behold the Behemoth.
Because things like this sound like they do strange things
to people when they say them. So the astonishing thing
about that poem, which I think ties in you know
this is someone who wrote about monsters. He's probably, you know,
next to the Men in Black, which are monsters of
another kind. He's very well known for writing about the
Flatwood's monster, the Mothman, and you know, kind of strange
things in general, telling strange stories and stories about strange
things for purposes of identity formation and self transformation. I
think that's something that Barker did and encouraged. He wrote
this poem in nineteen forty six, seven years before he
was involved with flying saucers, and a year before flying
saucers was even a thing he could be involved with. Wow,
And yet there it all is kind of right there
in that poem.
Speaker 3: It's prescient.
Speaker 4: So yeah, so that's why I called the book Behold
the Behemon.
Speaker 3: No. I think it's a great tough on.
Speaker 4: Prop of the fact that it ended up being about
three times longer than I thought it was going to
be when I started thinking about doing it.
Speaker 3: So tell me a little bit about your relationship too,
with with with ban and publication. What's an apport imprint,
what's the actual Yeah?
Speaker 4: So so the book was published by Apport Editions, which
is run by Ben roy Lance. He has a bookstore
outside Allentown, Pennsylvania called.
Speaker 2: Apport Used Books.
Speaker 4: He has a podcast called Consensus on Reality. I think
your listeners would be very interested in both of those
things if they're not already familiar with them. But he
is a book dealer who specializes in in weird stuff,
so UFOs, the paranormal, outsider art and outsider poetry and
UH and radical politics and all manner of fun stuff
like that, and so I when the sauce Arian came out,
I saw that he sometimes stocks new books because.
Speaker 2: It's primarily he's primarily used in rare book dealer.
Speaker 4: But I sent him a message saying, hey, I'm you
know I'm going to be It was on my way
back from West Virginia, so I said, I'm going to
be in town. If you'd be interested in stalking the book,
I would love to come by and do an event.
And he said, oh, I don't know that that many
people will show up, you know, on a Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 2: And I said, I don't care. I'm going there to.
Speaker 4: Shop, so if nobody shows up, you will still sell
me some books, and you know, everything will be fine.
But while I was there, I was idly grumbling that
Barker had all this unpublished poetry and that you know,
a little bit of it was out there, but all
my a lot of my favorite stuff. You know, I'm
one of the only people on earth that'd seen it.
Speaker 2: And I had kind.
Speaker 4: Of put feelers out to a couple presses and they
had all said, you know, we're not interested in poetry.
And he said, oh, I published poetry. So he has
has put out a couple of poetry books. He really
specializes in reissues of kind of outsider and vanity press
publications from the twenties and beyond. I think you have
first book he put out his reissue of a self
publish book from the twenties, the second ones from the sixties,
but really focused on really forgotten poetry, and that you know,
Barker's poetry was not published. This wasn't a republication of anything,
but it was a forgotten poetry of a different sort.
And so we had a handshake deal that day and
I got to work getting permission from the Barker estate
to assemble this material, which they graciously gave, and then
you know, going through all of my information and scans
and things from the archive to get as complete a
picture of the poetry as I could, and I think
I got it all though I'm always scared that, you know,
somebody's going to say, oh, you didn't you know I
found this one in a folder in the back of
the of the file cabinet in Clarksburg.
Speaker 3: You can always do a second edition, that's right. No.
I was so glad when I saw that you teamed
up with Ben to release this book, because he's great
and he gets it, you know what I mean. So
it was like, this is real, this is fantastic. Like,
I was so happy when I saw this was coming out.
This is going to be just amazing, and it is.
It is amazing. My favorite, my favorite poem in the book.
Now this is all about me. I actually I when
the book came, I was so excited and I I
I opened the parcel and I was my girlfriend was here,
Samanth wh's watching now, hey baby? And I flicked to
the mostly poems at the back because I knew mostly obviously,
so as much as I'm interested in Bark and mostly
somebody you know in my college days, I have this
very this very single fond memory of you know, but
still somebody. You have an incredibly fond memory of and
I read the last poem in the book first, and
I started to cheer up when I was reading that,
piet back to You Great Baka. Yeah, could you could
you read that first, because I couldn't read it or
I'd tear up again like I did the first time.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, So yeah, I closed the book.
Speaker 3: I'll give a talk about talk about a little first.
That would be great. I'd love it if you talked
about a little first.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I closed the book with a few poems by Jim Moseley,
which you know, obviously, this is the collected Poems of
Gray Barker. Mosley did not write a ton of poetry,
at least not that that has survived. But what's interesting
is that a lot of the poetry that has survived
is directly related to Gray Barker. And so I included
a few poems by him that that I found that
felt particularly relevant. Two of the one that one is
in a very Barkarian style. It's called the Silence Group
gives a Party, and that's very similar to some of
Barker's poetry from the same period. And the other two poems,
The Great Green God and Back to You Grey Barker
are specifically about Barker, and the earliest of those is
kind of a you know, basically calling Barker a sellout.
It's kind of a jokingly insulting poem. But then the
last one, the one you mentioned, is a poem written
very shortly after Barker died as a memorial, and you're right,
it is moving, So yeah, I'll read back to you,
Grey Barker.
Speaker 3: Think.
Speaker 4: I tried to phone Grey Barker tonight, like we used
to do.
Speaker 2: I dialed the.
Speaker 4: Three oh four area code, so close to three five
in Florida, and the robot said, you can't dial him
where he is now. The lions don't go out that far.
And I sassed the robot, saying how far out do
the lions go? And it replied mockingly, thank you for
using AT and T. I tried to write Grey Barker
the other day, like we used to do. I put
on a D stamp, was there ever a C? And
the letter came back to me together with a warning
stamped on the envelope for domestic use. Only A man
from the Post Office department came by and informed me
that our Eastraith is dead. I tried to reach Grey
Barker the other night telepathically, as if in a dream,
and I saw this circle of beings clustered around a
smoldering cauldron. Here was Palmer and Arnold and Jessop and
Wilkins and Lane and Edwards and Scully and Van Tassel,
all their differences forgotten, and Georgia Dampsky with his telescope.
And here too was Gray Barker with a drink in
his hand, stirring the cauldron so vigorously that his hand shook.
So I asked him, when may I join you? And
Georgia Dampski answered, for the group time will tell.
Speaker 3: It's so wonderful. Yeah, I'm so grateful that you put
that in there. I really am.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it felt rate to kind of not just have
it be Barker's own words in there, but to really
have someone who loved him kind of commenting on the
proceedings as well.
Speaker 3: I think that'd be a great feature, you know, a
biopic about the friendship of Barkron. Mostly. I think that's
a film waiting to be made.
Speaker 4: Yeah, i'd be their opening night.
Speaker 3: Me too, Me too. Is you've obviously, I mean, you've
done such an incredible service for the history of this field,
with both, with both This is the sauce Arian and
more recently the wonderful book of Barker's poetry, Behold the
Bear Myth. Are there other people in the euphological community
you're interested? I know I first found found you because
you've written a wonderful paper on Richard Shaver, But I'm
guessing you still have an interest in Shaver. There are
other people as well that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean Shaver is a big one. I'm
I'm definitely still interested in him. I'm interested in science
fiction's reaction to him, which was very negative science fiction fandom,
but also on the kind of re embrace that he
saw by the paranormal world, you know, kind of as
a kind of to offset that. So that's something that
that definitely interests me and I do have a little
more kind of research to do in that in that area.
There are a lot of figures that I that I
have a lot of affection for or interest in, t
Love Song Rampa, the.
Speaker 2: The the British.
Speaker 4: Tibetan Lama, somebody that I'm very interested in.
Speaker 2: Actually just presented on.
Speaker 4: Him at the Popular Culture Association conference a few weeks ago,
so I may may do a little more with him
down the road. And let's see, I mean Ray Palmer
is great, so so that's that's another big one. But yeah,
I'm I am really interested in in figures and personalities
in in the UFO world.
Speaker 2: Another one.
Speaker 4: I don't know that there's too much of a story
to tell or I don't know. I really like John W. Dean,
who wrote Flying Saucers Close Up, which was a publication,
a Saucerean Books publication. He's it was a really interesting
character that nobody really knows too much about. He was
in his seventies, I think when he was writing for
Barker and in his correspondence, because he would write Barker
very long letters, there's kind of a sad picture of
of his life and the way that he was kind
of using Flying Saucers as a way to kind of
try to regain some joy in his twilight years. And
it's it's not a happy story, but but it's one
that that I think is is kind of moving. So
I may want to try to do a little more
with with John Dean, but he doesn't have the kind
of marquee.
Speaker 2: Value of a gray Barker, right.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately here it's there's so many people in the field,
like I'm unaware of who he is, and I probably
should be aware, and i'm because that's my field, but
I'm not. There are so many people in there in
that that early field and me Lane is a big
character who's all but forgotten now. Yeah, yeah, he's just
some of the Barker's poetry as well. In fact, he
might even have been in that one you just read
by mostly but he's what he.
Speaker 2: Was mentioned in there for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Borderland Sciences Research Association, I think they are
still around the organization, but I don't know. But yeah,
he's he's definitely a bit more of a deep cut
for for a lot of people.
Speaker 3: I know Thomas Brown, who I think runs that now
by the way, but Thomas I think Thomas Brown, I
think he is the head of Borderlands not but as
a figure. Yeah, he's not really taught. He's super influential
really on things that came after, but nobody talks about anymore. Really.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And one of the reasons he's so influential was and
this is kind of the the area, one of the
areas that really interests me the most is the crossover
between flying saucers and and science fiction because he was
writing to Amazing Stories, Ray Palmer was was mentioning him,
you know, unbidden in respect of other people's letters in
the in the Amazing Letter column. And also he had
a zine Round Robin that that pre ex that kind
of pre dates flying saucers because he was interested in
kind of psychic stuff, you know, before flying saucers really
were a phenomenon. But I think he was drawing a
lot on on flying on science fiction fanzines and how
he kind of put that together and distributed it. There
was a lot of cross pollination with between him and
the science fiction world and uh, and then he kind
of brought some of that for into the flying saucer world.
He's somebody who Gray Barker was also very interested in
from an early period. And so I think a lot
of what Barker did was kind of drawing on kind
of trying to draw the Mead Lane end of things,
you know, more towards the center of the flying saucer conversation.
Speaker 3: All right, John Keel too, I think I think a
lot of those early guys. Lane was a big influence
on yeah, yeah, so yeah. I mean I don't even
know who'll do the research on these people as as
you probably realized too. I mean, thankfully you're so good
at researching, you know, manuscripts and things like that, but
the act the people who knew these people are all
but gone now. To go out there and do a
documentary work and talk to people who knew these individuals personally,
it's getting harder with every passing year, because it's.
Speaker 4: Yes, I unfortunately started getting into this project really heavily
just a couple of years after Jim Moseley had died,
so unfortunately I did not get the opportunity to meet
or speak with him, though he is his memoir shockingly
close to the truth was a great source of information
and prior prior to to my book was as close
to a Barker biography as existed, because even though it
was his own life story, he was also very interested
in telling a lot of what he knew about Gray Barker.
Speaker 2: You know in that book.
Speaker 3: Super entertain it's a super entertaining book as well, Like
it's just it's a great read. Other than who you're
interested in, is there is there a book or a
person you've got no interest in doing, but you wish
we had, and you think we should have. Is there
somebody out there that you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. There.
Speaker 4: There are definitely a few people who I wish someone
else would write the biography so that I could read it.
Speaker 2: So Laura Mundo is a big one.
Speaker 4: I've tried to uh uh, kind of put a worm
in in Aaron Gullias's ear about maybe him doing a
Laura Mundo biography.
Speaker 2: I don't think he's he's going.
Speaker 4: To bite though, so, but I would love to read
her life's which was fascinating. She was a children's television
presenter turned Georgia Dampski, a follower turned kind of Georgia
Dampski apostate because she decided that he was not telling
the truth, that that there were there were weirder things
about flying saucers than he was letting on. And she's
a very interesting character for sure.
Speaker 3: So yeah, you know that that would be that would
be a great read. I have more people, more people
follow your example and go out there and and write
and dig up more materials from these you know, the
people who were the founders of Sausagem and the people
who carried it so well in those early years. And
of course, perhaps because the way history is written, a
lot of the more out there folks, including bark and
Mosley and Mundo and Adamski and you know, you name them,
they've they've been in many ways written out of the
UFO history. Like you, the UFO the history of ethology
is different to the actual history of UFO belief as
you and I both no, but somebody who just picks
up a history book today written by somebody who's sympathetic
to euthology or somebody who's just reading euthology, tomes to
write that recent euthological terms to write that history. All
of these people aren't going to be in there because
because the contact d types were just written out of
the narrative. David Jacob's UFO Controversy in America. Ray Palmer
hardly appears in that book. I think he's a footnote.
There's so many historians who concentrated on the I don't
know the post and I CAAP type direction, you know,
this more respectable direction of euthology. And I think the
more interesting people were the Barkers, were the Palmers, were
the Mondo's, were the Damskis you know that to me
is more interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: And I think the thing that you lose and focusing
on the kind of more respectable side is the influence
of those forgotten figures on the respectable side, and that
you have. You know, Donald Keijo was doing a lot
of the same kind of manipulation of stories that Gray
Barker was doing.
Speaker 2: He just was not as upfront about it.
Speaker 4: And so the fact that this really was a world
where there was a lot of cross pollination between the
center and the fringe, and also the fringe tends to
migrate to the center in ufology that things that were
utterly rejected in nineteen fifty three end up being the
bread and butter of nineteen sixty six and beyond because
their stories are more fun to tell. So yeah, I
think that is definitely a component. The unfortunate thing is
that so much of being able to do a biography
like the Saucerian that there have been a few kind
of biographies of a few other figures. There's a really
good Jalen Heineck biography a few years ago, the Close
Encounters Man. There have been some others as well, but
you really need access to a personal archive. So we're
blessed that the Barker archive has survived. I don't know
that the Laura Mundau one has and so that's kind
of the piece that you really need to really do
that kind of story justice. You can, you can go
to a certain extent with what's out there publicly and published,
but it's really in people's private papers that you're going
to find the real story that deserves telling. And there
are some archives out there that are, you know, interested
in weird topics, but it's they're not necessarily interested in
the personalities in the way that that I think you
and I are. They're interested more in the phenomena and
less in the people who are bringing that phenomenon to
the public.
Speaker 3: That's very that's very true, and certainly with with for example,
Ray Palmer, who I'm obviously particularly interested in Richard Shaver.
The palm and shave stuff is fairly collectible, so it's
there's lots of private holders who have you know, who
have a letter is my very good friend Brian Emrick,
who's a producer on both a shave mystery and the
man who inventifying sources. I only met him because I
was making these films. He's the world's probably largest holder
of certainly Richard Shaver art. He owns most of the
he owns most of the paintings that we know exist.
There are some others around, but he has the majority
of them, and an extensive collection of you know, Shaver
and Palmer e femera, including bunches of letters, and but
that's in a private hand. That's in private hands. It's
great that Brian has it because he's somebody who's trustworthy.
He's open to people looking at it, and I suspect
one day that will end up in a you know,
a museum or something. But the question is who's you
need to find somebody who can take that material.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and that's that can be tricky because it
has to be the right the right institution, and not
every institution is necessarily going to see the value and
you know, an archive that's on something so weird. H Fortunately,
I think there are a growing number of places that
that see the value in uh in looking at these stories.
Uh you know, at least from a from a cultural standpoint,
from a from their their role in shaping our our
popular culture. And so I hope that you know, if
if Brian does decide that he's ready for that to
go and see an institutional home, I'll help him find
the place. If it comes to that.
Speaker 3: I will tell Brian that, you know, he's a he's
a great He's been such a help with this this film.
It's it's so good you had people who who were
on your side, like the Baker Estate. The where again
is the baka the Bacca Library. I know it's in
It's in the place which holds the Bacca.
Speaker 4: It's in Clarksburg, West Virginia. It's called the Waldemore but
it's it's connected to the Clarksburg Harrison Public Library, just
the public library in downtown Clarksburg. But there's this kind
of old mansion behind the main library building and that's
where their their local history collection is, and it has
it's you know, not just Barker's Archive though I think
that is uh kind of the biggest out of town
draw but they also.
Speaker 2: Have a lot of genealogy information and and and.
Speaker 4: Other stuff for people who are interested in the history
of West Virginia in general and Clarksburg in particular.
Speaker 3: That's fantastic that they have it there. I'd love to
go there. Myself and visit one day, and it.
Speaker 4: Is it is worth some of these things you can
you can get lost in in in the files there.
Speaker 3: I bet flat Rockland. His real name's Matt Oakland. He
has been a guest on the show. He's a good
front of the show. Just said the absurdity is the point,
yes it. So maybe can can you direct people the
where they can get either of your books? I'll put
them up again. Let's start with the Saucerean so flush
start first.
Speaker 4: So the Saucerian I was published by them I T Press.
You can get that, you know, through any bookstore or.
Speaker 2: Your local library.
Speaker 4: They've they've got really really good distribution, and so that's uh,
you know, uh the easy one to track down. I
would say, Behold the Behemoth is published by Apport Editions,
and that is mostly available directly.
Speaker 2: From Apport Books and Ben Roylinz.
Speaker 4: It does go to a couple kind of other booksellers,
and so you can find it online, but you're you're
unlikely to find it in the bookstore unless you live
near a very cool bookstore, and there are.
Speaker 2: A couple that have it in stock.
Speaker 4: So I'll to the unnamable books in Brooklyn, if you're
ever there, I believe had it in stock Most funny,
that's actually where I did my first book reading for
my book The Gospel according to Science Fiction, which I
published back in two thousand and seven. I was living
in Brooklyn at the time. I did a reading it
Unnamable Books, which had just opened, and then when I
did the book launch for Behold the Behemoth, two guys
who worked there came out to the book launch event
that we did and they have it in stock there.
But no connection between those two facts. It's just a
very cool bookstore.
Speaker 3: I will have links where people can get both of
those books in the show notes, so anywhere everybody anybody's
watching or listening, they can just click into the show
notes and click directly through to buy either of those books.
Do you are there any other u URLs, like anything
you'd like to point people at or let people know
about any upcoming events or anything.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, So.
Speaker 4: I currently have a website just Gabriel McKey dot com.
It's pretty simple where I have there's a list of
all my publications there. I have an events page where
I list kind of upcoming podcasts I'm now and other
events that I'm doing, though, I just realized I forgot
to put this one on there as upcoming, but I'll
put it on there as passed, and so yeah, that's
that's kind of my personal archive of all the stuff
that I've done, and so that's a good place to
go to see not just the books that I've published,
but academic papers on subjects both weird and less weird,
and yeah, everything else.
Speaker 3: Well, if anybody has any interest in ethology, the history
of euthology, the personality is of youthology, and one of
the men who made the biggest impact on what we're
all interested in. I can't recommend enough Gabriel's book The Saucerian. Again,
there will be links to that in the show notes,
and a wonderful companion piece to that is a Gray
Barker's poetry, along with some of his other writings in
Behold the Behemouth, which I'll also put a link to.
And I can't encourage people enough to get both of
those books because I love them, and I suspect the
majority of my listeners here on Talking Weird will love
them as well. Thank you again so much for coming
back to Joemy, Gabriel. It's just a great joy to
talk to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks so much. Always a pleasure to talk to you,
so thanks for having me back.
Speaker 3: Thanks Matte. Until I talk to you, which I hope
will be sooner than it's been since I last talked
to you, and until I get to talk to everybody
else out there, which will be same weird time, nine
pm Central Thursday, Same weird work, the Ansold Radio Network.
Please keep it weird.