Speaker 1: Hey, this is Christoph Macking your leadership. Today's discussion on
Speaker 1: employee engagement. I want to talk about the importance of
Speaker 1: a leader's ability to own a mistake while also being
Speaker 1: able to provide an explanation to why something happened. And
Speaker 1: this is rooted in a couple of things. One, we
Speaker 1: had a listener reach out asking about the conversation we
Speaker 1: had a few weeks ago on the video you know
Speaker 1: debate between Adam Grant and Malcolm Gladwell where they were
Speaker 1: talking about how an apology for something that is rooted
Speaker 1: in a failure of performance tends to go over well.
Speaker 1: Because people view a failure of performance as correctable. You know,
Speaker 1: you get better over time, things are less likely to
Speaker 1: happen again, whereas a failure of character is less likely
Speaker 1: to have an accepted apology because people don't necessarily believe
Speaker 1: that you can change your character over a short period
Speaker 1: of time, especially if you're already an adult and you know,
Speaker 1: have an established track record of whatever it is. And
Speaker 1: I had an interaction with a person where they interpreted
Speaker 1: something incorrectly and the decision that I made in the
Speaker 1: in the moment, or what I did was the right
Speaker 1: thing to do, and so when they interpreted it incorrectly,
Speaker 1: my knee jerk was to explain why something happened. And
Speaker 1: I thought I was doing the right thing at the
Speaker 1: time by saying this is why it happened. But because
Speaker 1: the person who this impacted viewed this this decision with
Speaker 1: a kind of a level of emotion and not just
Speaker 1: a kind of a factual, it wasn't a very black
Speaker 1: and white decision. It was something that impacted them. There
Speaker 1: was a failure on my part to understand how they
Speaker 1: were interpreting it, and so my explanation as to why
Speaker 1: something happened came off as an excuse. And I since
Speaker 1: rectified this. We've we've talked about this and kind of
Speaker 1: hashed it out, but it made me think very critically
Speaker 1: about what the responsibility is of a leader in these moments,
Speaker 1: and and how as a leader you can navigate these
Speaker 1: situations where you have to give an explanation for why
Speaker 1: something happened, because if you don't, then people will tell
Speaker 1: their own story. They'll tell that they'll they'll they'll they'll
Speaker 1: tell themselves why something happened, and if it's not true,
Speaker 1: then it can be viewed as either a failure of
Speaker 1: character or or or something totally unrelated. So you have
Speaker 1: to give the explanation. But if if the person is
Speaker 1: interpreting this kind of from an emotional standpoint or if
Speaker 1: it impacts them personally, it's not necessarily enough to just
Speaker 1: explain why something happened if you want to make sure
Speaker 1: that the relationship stays strong between you and the employee.
Speaker 1: And so it's a it's a kind of a gray
Speaker 1: area when it comes to leadership, but I think is
Speaker 1: important to talk about because a lot of leaders fall
Speaker 1: into the same trap.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a great call out and sometimes
Speaker 2: kind of it feels like we can kind of get
Speaker 2: into like the the details of exactly what to say
Speaker 2: or exactly how to say it. But I think when
Speaker 2: when you're in leadership, words matter, and approach matters, and
Speaker 2: understanding these things over time, most of us learn as
Speaker 2: leaders by making the mistake, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Like that's actually how we learn. You know, we have
Speaker 2: that conversation and we either over explain and then it
Speaker 2: comes off like an like it's an excuse or we
Speaker 2: under explained, and then there's this miscommunication because you know,
Speaker 2: against people create their own narratives without the information, the
Speaker 2: type of thing, and then you have to find kind
Speaker 2: of that middle ground area that makes sense where you
Speaker 2: can be open and honest and own the things that
Speaker 2: have happened, and you know, when you make a mistake,
Speaker 2: you know, providing enough of the information to explain what
Speaker 2: got you there. That's kind of what I've learned over time,
Speaker 2: and I'll never forget it. And I think I've shared
Speaker 2: in the podcast many years ago. But having a leader
Speaker 2: that I had, I was an assistant manager, they were
Speaker 2: kind of a team leader. There was this you know,
Speaker 2: customer situation that happened with the customer got upsets and
Speaker 2: you know kind of directed some of that to this
Speaker 2: leader and then you know she wanted them to leave
Speaker 2: the store and not be helped. And I kind of
Speaker 2: walked into this whole situation and had to figure out
Speaker 2: very quickly without all the information, like what do I
Speaker 2: need to do here, and made the decision to say, Okay,
Speaker 2: we need to take care of this customer. We need
Speaker 2: to figure out what's going on with this customer because
Speaker 2: the error in the issue was caused by us, so
Speaker 2: like we had to own it, right And I had
Speaker 2: to make that decision in the moment because we had
Speaker 2: to own it. I then had, you know, a lead
Speaker 2: that was very upset with me because it was feeling
Speaker 2: like I didn't support her, I didn't take her side.
Speaker 2: The customer was room fod you know, didn't didn't physically
Speaker 2: threaten do anything like that at all. It was just
Speaker 2: mad and was swearing and that type of thing. But like, regardless,
Speaker 2: there was a conversation that we need to have. And
Speaker 2: in that conversation, you know, that's kind of when I
Speaker 2: learned of like if I if I sit here and
Speaker 2: try to explain everything that I did and why I
Speaker 2: did it, it sounds like I'm giving an excuse, right,
Speaker 2: And what I really need to do is say, like, hey,
Speaker 2: like first and foremost, like I never want to put
Speaker 2: you in a situation where you feel that way about
Speaker 2: my leadership, where like I you know that you think
Speaker 2: I'm not supporting you, that you think that I'm not
Speaker 2: listening to you. I heard, so like, I apologize if
Speaker 2: you felt that way, because that was never my intention, right,
Speaker 2: and like that's not what I was looking to do here.
Speaker 2: But let's let's talk through this, and like let me,
Speaker 2: can I share with you what I walked into and
Speaker 2: then can I share with you, like why I considered
Speaker 2: making the decision that I that I made, and then
Speaker 2: I want to hear from you on you know how
Speaker 2: that felt, what they look like, so that we can
Speaker 2: find a better place there. But you know, it just
Speaker 2: took a lot of dialogue, conversation and willingness to approach
Speaker 2: the convo with number one just owning it in the
Speaker 2: number two giving the time and space to explain, you know,
Speaker 2: how I got to where.
Speaker 1: I got to. I like this because because there's you know,
Speaker 1: the right thing but explained incorrectly can become the wrong thing.
Speaker 1: And the if the only options are to do the
Speaker 1: wrong thing because it will come off the right way,
Speaker 1: then that isn't necessarily a good choice for earlier also,
Speaker 1: And so I want to go over some of the
Speaker 1: things that leaders can do to make sure that you're
Speaker 1: not having to choose between doing the right or the
Speaker 1: wrong thing, Like if you know what the right thing
Speaker 1: to do here is, but you also want to make
Speaker 1: sure that you're maintaining the relationships with your people and
Speaker 1: that it comes off and is interpreted the right way.
Speaker 1: They're both important and they both can be done. So
Speaker 1: I want to go over what you can do to
Speaker 1: make sure that happens. But first I want to give
Speaker 1: up towards for one of our sponsors. All Right, if
Speaker 1: you're a leader of people and you have to make
Speaker 1: tough decisions, and the decisions that you're making will impact
Speaker 1: somebody positively and then also by definition somebody negatively, meaning
Speaker 1: we've talked about for a long time, there's no way
Speaker 1: to say yes as a leader without also saying no.
Speaker 1: You're saying yes to one thing, you're saying no to
Speaker 1: something else by definition, because you have a finite amount
Speaker 1: of time and resources, and in any conflict, you're going
Speaker 1: to be essentially taking a side. And so as a leader,
Speaker 1: it's important that when you're explaining to a person why
Speaker 1: a decision was made, that you own the decision and
Speaker 1: if there is a problem with how it's interpreted, even
Speaker 1: if you wouldn't have changed the decision or what happened
Speaker 1: or you couldn't, that it starts with ownership of it
Speaker 1: and an apology, not an apology for what you did,
Speaker 1: necessarily unless it is needed if you did something wrong,
Speaker 1: but an apology for how that pacted the person. Even
Speaker 1: if the decision was the right thing and you wouldn't
Speaker 1: have done it any differently, and so owning it and
Speaker 1: not owning it at the end of the conversation or
Speaker 1: in the middle of the conversation, but at the very beginning.
Speaker 1: And so it's not hey, let me explain to you
Speaker 1: this is how I did, because that comes off as
Speaker 1: defensive or like you're trying to give an excuse. But
Speaker 1: starting from the standpoint of first, let's talk about I understand,
Speaker 1: I completely understand how you feel right now, and I
Speaker 1: apologize for making you feel that way. I did not
Speaker 1: mean to make you feel that way, and I would
Speaker 1: never intentionally do that. I owned the decision and it
Speaker 1: was my call, and so it's nothing that you did.
Speaker 1: Do you have a moment so we can talk about
Speaker 1: why this happened the way it did and how we
Speaker 1: can try to make sure it doesn't happen again in
Speaker 1: the future. Because even if as a leader it wasn't
Speaker 1: a failure from a decision making process, maybe it was
Speaker 1: a failure in your or steps to partner with a
Speaker 1: person prior to making the decision, or to make sure
Speaker 1: that they were aligned with you in the decision, or
Speaker 1: to get their buy in on the decision so that
Speaker 1: it could be a collaborative decision instead of one that
Speaker 1: you arbitrarily made as a leader by yourself. You know,
Speaker 1: there are things you can do to make sure that
Speaker 1: you are simultaneously making the right decision and doing right
Speaker 1: by your people and not hurting them in any way.
Speaker 1: But when you make those mistakes, just because the decision
Speaker 1: wasn't a mistake doesn't mean the steps you took prior
Speaker 1: to making the decision warn't warn't a mistake. And if
Speaker 1: a person is feeling that way, if they're feeling negatively
Speaker 1: about it, then I promise you, by definition you made
Speaker 1: a mistake as a leader, they shouldn't feel that way,
Speaker 1: and so don't necessarily interpret it as you should have
Speaker 1: made a different decision, but you should have done other
Speaker 1: things in advance or other steps prior to going about
Speaker 1: that decision making process, and so having an explanation for
Speaker 1: why something happened very important. It's important not to not
Speaker 1: to try to come up with an excuse, but an
Speaker 1: explanation can be interpreted as an excuse if you don't
Speaker 1: start with the empathy and the ownership of that person's
Speaker 1: feelings and how they interpreted it, and why you made
Speaker 1: that decision or or the ownership of that decision and
Speaker 1: how it happened. So both are important, but it needs
Speaker 1: to start with that apology and that ownership because otherwise
Speaker 1: the explanation either A won't be heard or B will
Speaker 1: be interpreted as an excuse.
Speaker 2: It's such such an important part of building trust and
Speaker 2: long term relationships with people is you know, how do
Speaker 2: you apologize, how do you own mistakes? What's the language
Speaker 2: that you use, how do you how do you make
Speaker 2: sure that walking away from a conversation like that, you know,
Speaker 2: you feel good about what you've shared, what you've owned,
Speaker 2: and what you're going to do differently, and the person
Speaker 2: feels seen and heard in and you know, uh, feels
Speaker 2: good about the convo again, like when when those conversations happen,
Speaker 2: there's not an expectation that you'll immediately walk out and
Speaker 2: everything is fine again, and everything is good. Like as
Speaker 2: always with all relationships, it's based on interactions. It's back
Speaker 2: and forth. It's how much you put in, it's how
Speaker 2: you deal with those things. But over time, if your
Speaker 2: approach is authentic and your approach is consistent, uh, then
Speaker 2: people know that it's okay that that there there will
Speaker 2: be stakes that will be made that you, as a
Speaker 2: leader will own them that there'll be an opportunity to
Speaker 2: talk through it, and they become less and less personal
Speaker 2: and they and they have less and less of an
Speaker 2: impact on the overall relationship over time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's spot on. I think. I think where leaders
Speaker 1: get hung up is that they they think that because
Speaker 1: there was no failure of character, there there was no
Speaker 1: nothing was malicious nothing. You know, they weren't not thinking
Speaker 1: about the person. They were they were thinking about it
Speaker 1: objectively from either what the right thing to do was
Speaker 1: or that there was a legitimate oversight, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: rooted in anything other than just a simple mistake. That
Speaker 1: an explanation is what is needed, and I'm not saying
Speaker 1: it's not needed. It is need. An explanation is needed.
Speaker 1: It just has to come secondarily to the ownership of
Speaker 1: it and the apology. Even if the apology wasn't for
Speaker 1: the decision, but the apology is for how it made
Speaker 1: the person feel. And your acknowledgment that it definitely wasn't intentional.
Speaker 1: You did not mean to make the person feel that way,
Speaker 1: but you understand why they did because just saying I
Speaker 1: didn't mean to make you feel that way doesn't absolve
Speaker 1: you of making them feel that way. It has to
Speaker 1: be I didn't mean to make you feel that way,
Speaker 1: but I understand how, like, why this decision made you
Speaker 1: feel this way, or why this mistake made you feel
Speaker 1: this way because I didn't partner with you in advance,
Speaker 1: or I didn't you know, take you as a partner,
Speaker 1: or collaborate with you, or you know, make sure that
Speaker 1: we were both on board with it before decision had
Speaker 1: to be made. And quite honestly, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, if you're a leader and you can't get
Speaker 1: buy in from that person but it's the right thing
Speaker 1: to do, it's still the right thing to do. You
Speaker 1: still have to make that right decision as a leader,
Speaker 1: but going through the process of walking through that that
Speaker 1: decision making process with the person prior to being made,
Speaker 1: you're more likely to get the right outcome, number one.
Speaker 1: But number two, if you don't get that right outcome,
Speaker 1: if the person is not bought into it, then it's
Speaker 1: a very different conversation where you can talk about how, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, my responsibility as a leader is to do
Speaker 1: these things, and I don't believe it was the wrong decision,
Speaker 1: but I want to make sure that you that were
Speaker 1: good in our relationship, and if there's something that I
Speaker 1: could have done differently, knowing that this decision had to
Speaker 1: be made this way, I would love your feedback what
Speaker 1: could I have done differently? That it doesn't involve changing
Speaker 1: the decision that was made, because I believe this was
Speaker 1: the right decision based on and root it in values,
Speaker 1: your values, the company's values, the company's objectives, whatever those are,
Speaker 1: not just in this kind of subjective this is what
Speaker 1: I felt was right in the time, because they have
Speaker 1: what they feel is right at the time, and if
Speaker 1: it's just your opinion versus theirs, you're never going to
Speaker 1: convince them that what you did was the right thing
Speaker 1: to do. Root it in values, root it in objectives
Speaker 1: and standards, something that is separate from your subjective opinion
Speaker 1: as a leader, and you're you're far more likely to
Speaker 1: at least get them to understand that it couldn't have
Speaker 1: gone any differently, but that they have a voice in
Speaker 1: the in the process going forward, and that you'll do
Speaker 1: better to partner with them and to make sure that
Speaker 1: they're involved. Thank you for joining us on this discussion
Speaker 1: on employee engagement. Make sure that you are owning these things.
Speaker 1: Make sure that you're apologizing when needed, even if the
Speaker 1: decision wasn't one that you would have made any differently.
Speaker 1: You have a great day.