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<v Speaker 1>Hey, this is Christoph Macking your leadership. Today's discussion on

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<v Speaker 1>employee engagement. I want to talk about the importance of

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<v Speaker 1>a leader's ability to own a mistake while also being

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<v Speaker 1>able to provide an explanation to why something happened. And

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<v Speaker 1>this is rooted in a couple of things. One, we

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<v Speaker 1>had a listener reach out asking about the conversation we

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<v Speaker 1>had a few weeks ago on the video you know

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<v Speaker 1>debate between Adam Grant and Malcolm Gladwell where they were

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<v Speaker 1>talking about how an apology for something that is rooted

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<v Speaker 1>in a failure of performance tends to go over well.

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<v Speaker 1>Because people view a failure of performance as correctable. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you get better over time, things are less likely to

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<v Speaker 1>happen again, whereas a failure of character is less likely

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<v Speaker 1>to have an accepted apology because people don't necessarily believe

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<v Speaker 1>that you can change your character over a short period

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<v Speaker 1>of time, especially if you're already an adult and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>have an established track record of whatever it is. And

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<v Speaker 1>I had an interaction with a person where they interpreted

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<v Speaker 1>something incorrectly and the decision that I made in the

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<v Speaker 1>in the moment, or what I did was the right

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<v Speaker 1>thing to do, and so when they interpreted it incorrectly,

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<v Speaker 1>my knee jerk was to explain why something happened. And

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<v Speaker 1>I thought I was doing the right thing at the

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<v Speaker 1>time by saying this is why it happened. But because

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<v Speaker 1>the person who this impacted viewed this this decision with

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<v Speaker 1>a kind of a level of emotion and not just

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<v Speaker 1>a kind of a factual, it wasn't a very black

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<v Speaker 1>and white decision. It was something that impacted them. There

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<v Speaker 1>was a failure on my part to understand how they

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<v Speaker 1>were interpreting it, and so my explanation as to why

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<v Speaker 1>something happened came off as an excuse. And I since

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<v Speaker 1>rectified this. We've we've talked about this and kind of

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<v Speaker 1>hashed it out, but it made me think very critically

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<v Speaker 1>about what the responsibility is of a leader in these moments,

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<v Speaker 1>and and how as a leader you can navigate these

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<v Speaker 1>situations where you have to give an explanation for why

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<v Speaker 1>something happened, because if you don't, then people will tell

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<v Speaker 1>their own story. They'll tell that they'll they'll they'll they'll

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<v Speaker 1>tell themselves why something happened, and if it's not true,

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<v Speaker 1>then it can be viewed as either a failure of

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<v Speaker 1>character or or or something totally unrelated. So you have

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<v Speaker 1>to give the explanation. But if if the person is

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<v Speaker 1>interpreting this kind of from an emotional standpoint or if

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<v Speaker 1>it impacts them personally, it's not necessarily enough to just

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<v Speaker 1>explain why something happened if you want to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that the relationship stays strong between you and the employee.

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<v Speaker 1>And so it's a it's a kind of a gray

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<v Speaker 1>area when it comes to leadership, but I think is

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<v Speaker 1>important to talk about because a lot of leaders fall

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<v Speaker 1>into the same trap.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's a great call out and sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>kind of it feels like we can kind of get

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<v Speaker 2>into like the the details of exactly what to say

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<v Speaker 2>or exactly how to say it. But I think when

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<v Speaker 2>when you're in leadership, words matter, and approach matters, and

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<v Speaker 2>understanding these things over time, most of us learn as

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<v Speaker 2>leaders by making the mistake, you know what I mean?

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<v Speaker 2>Like that's actually how we learn. You know, we have

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<v Speaker 2>that conversation and we either over explain and then it

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<v Speaker 2>comes off like an like it's an excuse or we

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<v Speaker 2>under explained, and then there's this miscommunication because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>against people create their own narratives without the information, the

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<v Speaker 2>type of thing, and then you have to find kind

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<v Speaker 2>of that middle ground area that makes sense where you

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<v Speaker 2>can be open and honest and own the things that

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<v Speaker 2>have happened, and you know, when you make a mistake,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, providing enough of the information to explain what

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<v Speaker 2>got you there. That's kind of what I've learned over time,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll never forget it. And I think I've shared

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<v Speaker 2>in the podcast many years ago. But having a leader

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<v Speaker 2>that I had, I was an assistant manager, they were

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a team leader. There was this you know,

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<v Speaker 2>customer situation that happened with the customer got upsets and

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<v Speaker 2>you know kind of directed some of that to this

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<v Speaker 2>leader and then you know she wanted them to leave

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<v Speaker 2>the store and not be helped. And I kind of

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<v Speaker 2>walked into this whole situation and had to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>very quickly without all the information, like what do I

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<v Speaker 2>need to do here, and made the decision to say, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we need to take care of this customer. We need

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<v Speaker 2>to figure out what's going on with this customer because

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<v Speaker 2>the error in the issue was caused by us, so

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<v Speaker 2>like we had to own it, right And I had

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<v Speaker 2>to make that decision in the moment because we had

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<v Speaker 2>to own it. I then had, you know, a lead

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<v Speaker 2>that was very upset with me because it was feeling

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<v Speaker 2>like I didn't support her, I didn't take her side.

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<v Speaker 2>The customer was room fod you know, didn't didn't physically

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<v Speaker 2>threaten do anything like that at all. It was just

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<v Speaker 2>mad and was swearing and that type of thing. But like, regardless,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a conversation that we need to have. And

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<v Speaker 2>in that conversation, you know, that's kind of when I

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<v Speaker 2>learned of like if I if I sit here and

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<v Speaker 2>try to explain everything that I did and why I

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<v Speaker 2>did it, it sounds like I'm giving an excuse, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And what I really need to do is say, like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>like first and foremost, like I never want to put

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<v Speaker 2>you in a situation where you feel that way about

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<v Speaker 2>my leadership, where like I you know that you think

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not supporting you, that you think that I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>listening to you. I heard, so like, I apologize if

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<v Speaker 2>you felt that way, because that was never my intention, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and like that's not what I was looking to do here.

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<v Speaker 2>But let's let's talk through this, and like let me,

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<v Speaker 2>can I share with you what I walked into and

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<v Speaker 2>then can I share with you, like why I considered

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<v Speaker 2>making the decision that I that I made, and then

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<v Speaker 2>I want to hear from you on you know how

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<v Speaker 2>that felt, what they look like, so that we can

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<v Speaker 2>find a better place there. But you know, it just

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<v Speaker 2>took a lot of dialogue, conversation and willingness to approach

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<v Speaker 2>the convo with number one just owning it in the

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<v Speaker 2>number two giving the time and space to explain, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>how I got to where.

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<v Speaker 1>I got to. I like this because because there's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the right thing but explained incorrectly can become the wrong thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And the if the only options are to do the

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<v Speaker 1>wrong thing because it will come off the right way,

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<v Speaker 1>then that isn't necessarily a good choice for earlier also,

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<v Speaker 1>And so I want to go over some of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that leaders can do to make sure that you're

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<v Speaker 1>not having to choose between doing the right or the

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<v Speaker 1>wrong thing, Like if you know what the right thing

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<v Speaker 1>to do here is, but you also want to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that you're maintaining the relationships with your people and

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<v Speaker 1>that it comes off and is interpreted the right way.

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<v Speaker 1>They're both important and they both can be done. So

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<v Speaker 1>I want to go over what you can do to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that happens. But first I want to give

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<v Speaker 1>up towards for one of our sponsors. All Right, if

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<v Speaker 1>you're a leader of people and you have to make

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<v Speaker 1>tough decisions, and the decisions that you're making will impact

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<v Speaker 1>somebody positively and then also by definition somebody negatively, meaning

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<v Speaker 1>we've talked about for a long time, there's no way

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<v Speaker 1>to say yes as a leader without also saying no.

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<v Speaker 1>You're saying yes to one thing, you're saying no to

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<v Speaker 1>something else by definition, because you have a finite amount

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<v Speaker 1>of time and resources, and in any conflict, you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to be essentially taking a side. And so as a leader,

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<v Speaker 1>it's important that when you're explaining to a person why

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<v Speaker 1>a decision was made, that you own the decision and

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<v Speaker 1>if there is a problem with how it's interpreted, even

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<v Speaker 1>if you wouldn't have changed the decision or what happened

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<v Speaker 1>or you couldn't, that it starts with ownership of it

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<v Speaker 1>and an apology, not an apology for what you did,

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<v Speaker 1>necessarily unless it is needed if you did something wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>but an apology for how that pacted the person. Even

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<v Speaker 1>if the decision was the right thing and you wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>have done it any differently, and so owning it and

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<v Speaker 1>not owning it at the end of the conversation or

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<v Speaker 1>in the middle of the conversation, but at the very beginning.

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<v Speaker 1>And so it's not hey, let me explain to you

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<v Speaker 1>this is how I did, because that comes off as

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<v Speaker 1>defensive or like you're trying to give an excuse. But

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<v Speaker 1>starting from the standpoint of first, let's talk about I understand,

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<v Speaker 1>I completely understand how you feel right now, and I

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<v Speaker 1>apologize for making you feel that way. I did not

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<v Speaker 1>mean to make you feel that way, and I would

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<v Speaker 1>never intentionally do that. I owned the decision and it

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<v Speaker 1>was my call, and so it's nothing that you did.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you have a moment so we can talk about

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<v Speaker 1>why this happened the way it did and how we

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<v Speaker 1>can try to make sure it doesn't happen again in

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<v Speaker 1>the future. Because even if as a leader it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>a failure from a decision making process, maybe it was

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<v Speaker 1>a failure in your or steps to partner with a

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<v Speaker 1>person prior to making the decision, or to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that they were aligned with you in the decision, or

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<v Speaker 1>to get their buy in on the decision so that

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<v Speaker 1>it could be a collaborative decision instead of one that

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<v Speaker 1>you arbitrarily made as a leader by yourself. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>there are things you can do to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>you are simultaneously making the right decision and doing right

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<v Speaker 1>by your people and not hurting them in any way.

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<v Speaker 1>But when you make those mistakes, just because the decision

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't a mistake doesn't mean the steps you took prior

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<v Speaker 1>to making the decision warn't warn't a mistake. And if

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<v Speaker 1>a person is feeling that way, if they're feeling negatively

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<v Speaker 1>about it, then I promise you, by definition you made

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<v Speaker 1>a mistake as a leader, they shouldn't feel that way,

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<v Speaker 1>and so don't necessarily interpret it as you should have

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<v Speaker 1>made a different decision, but you should have done other

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<v Speaker 1>things in advance or other steps prior to going about

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<v Speaker 1>that decision making process, and so having an explanation for

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<v Speaker 1>why something happened very important. It's important not to not

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<v Speaker 1>to try to come up with an excuse, but an

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<v Speaker 1>explanation can be interpreted as an excuse if you don't

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<v Speaker 1>start with the empathy and the ownership of that person's

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<v Speaker 1>feelings and how they interpreted it, and why you made

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<v Speaker 1>that decision or or the ownership of that decision and

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<v Speaker 1>how it happened. So both are important, but it needs

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<v Speaker 1>to start with that apology and that ownership because otherwise

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<v Speaker 1>the explanation either A won't be heard or B will

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<v Speaker 1>be interpreted as an excuse.

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<v Speaker 2>It's such such an important part of building trust and

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<v Speaker 2>long term relationships with people is you know, how do

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<v Speaker 2>you apologize, how do you own mistakes? What's the language

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<v Speaker 2>that you use, how do you how do you make

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<v Speaker 2>sure that walking away from a conversation like that, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you feel good about what you've shared, what you've owned,

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<v Speaker 2>and what you're going to do differently, and the person

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<v Speaker 2>feels seen and heard in and you know, uh, feels

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<v Speaker 2>good about the convo again, like when when those conversations happen,

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<v Speaker 2>there's not an expectation that you'll immediately walk out and

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<v Speaker 2>everything is fine again, and everything is good. Like as

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<v Speaker 2>always with all relationships, it's based on interactions. It's back

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<v Speaker 2>and forth. It's how much you put in, it's how

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<v Speaker 2>you deal with those things. But over time, if your

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<v Speaker 2>approach is authentic and your approach is consistent, uh, then

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<v Speaker 2>people know that it's okay that that there there will

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<v Speaker 2>be stakes that will be made that you, as a

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<v Speaker 2>leader will own them that there'll be an opportunity to

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<v Speaker 2>talk through it, and they become less and less personal

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<v Speaker 2>and they and they have less and less of an

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<v Speaker 2>impact on the overall relationship over time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's spot on. I think. I think where leaders

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<v Speaker 1>get hung up is that they they think that because

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<v Speaker 1>there was no failure of character, there there was no

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<v Speaker 1>nothing was malicious nothing. You know, they weren't not thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about the person. They were they were thinking about it

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<v Speaker 1>objectively from either what the right thing to do was

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<v Speaker 1>or that there was a legitimate oversight, but it wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>rooted in anything other than just a simple mistake. That

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<v Speaker 1>an explanation is what is needed, and I'm not saying

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<v Speaker 1>it's not needed. It is need. An explanation is needed.

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<v Speaker 1>It just has to come secondarily to the ownership of

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<v Speaker 1>it and the apology. Even if the apology wasn't for

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<v Speaker 1>the decision, but the apology is for how it made

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<v Speaker 1>the person feel. And your acknowledgment that it definitely wasn't intentional.

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<v Speaker 1>You did not mean to make the person feel that way,

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<v Speaker 1>but you understand why they did because just saying I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't mean to make you feel that way doesn't absolve

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<v Speaker 1>you of making them feel that way. It has to

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<v Speaker 1>be I didn't mean to make you feel that way,

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<v Speaker 1>but I understand how, like, why this decision made you

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<v Speaker 1>feel this way, or why this mistake made you feel

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<v Speaker 1>this way because I didn't partner with you in advance,

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<v Speaker 1>or I didn't you know, take you as a partner,

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<v Speaker 1>or collaborate with you, or you know, make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>we were both on board with it before decision had

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<v Speaker 1>to be made. And quite honestly, at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>the day, if you're a leader and you can't get

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<v Speaker 1>buy in from that person but it's the right thing

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<v Speaker 1>to do, it's still the right thing to do. You

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<v Speaker 1>still have to make that right decision as a leader,

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<v Speaker 1>but going through the process of walking through that that

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<v Speaker 1>decision making process with the person prior to being made,

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<v Speaker 1>you're more likely to get the right outcome, number one.

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<v Speaker 1>But number two, if you don't get that right outcome,

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<v Speaker 1>if the person is not bought into it, then it's

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<v Speaker 1>a very different conversation where you can talk about how, hey,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, my responsibility as a leader is to do

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<v Speaker 1>these things, and I don't believe it was the wrong decision,

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<v Speaker 1>but I want to make sure that you that were

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<v Speaker 1>good in our relationship, and if there's something that I

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<v Speaker 1>could have done differently, knowing that this decision had to

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<v Speaker 1>be made this way, I would love your feedback what

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<v Speaker 1>could I have done differently? That it doesn't involve changing

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<v Speaker 1>the decision that was made, because I believe this was

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<v Speaker 1>the right decision based on and root it in values,

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<v Speaker 1>your values, the company's values, the company's objectives, whatever those are,

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<v Speaker 1>not just in this kind of subjective this is what

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<v Speaker 1>I felt was right in the time, because they have

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<v Speaker 1>what they feel is right at the time, and if

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<v Speaker 1>it's just your opinion versus theirs, you're never going to

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<v Speaker 1>convince them that what you did was the right thing

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<v Speaker 1>to do. Root it in values, root it in objectives

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<v Speaker 1>and standards, something that is separate from your subjective opinion

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<v Speaker 1>as a leader, and you're you're far more likely to

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<v Speaker 1>at least get them to understand that it couldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>gone any differently, but that they have a voice in

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<v Speaker 1>the in the process going forward, and that you'll do

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<v Speaker 1>better to partner with them and to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>they're involved. Thank you for joining us on this discussion

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<v Speaker 1>on employee engagement. Make sure that you are owning these things.

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<v Speaker 1>Make sure that you're apologizing when needed, even if the

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<v Speaker 1>decision wasn't one that you would have made any differently.

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<v Speaker 1>You have a great day.