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<v Speaker 1>Have you ever felt that that just feeling of information overload,

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<v Speaker 1>especially when you're trying to get your head around something

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<v Speaker 1>as complex as online crime and you know its impact

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<v Speaker 1>on real people.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, definitely, it's a huge topic.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So today we're taking a deep dive into cyber

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<v Speaker 1>victimology Decoding cyber Crime Victimization by Professor Debati Holder. Our

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<v Speaker 1>mission really is to cut through some of that noise

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<v Speaker 1>to give you those essential kind of aha moments about

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<v Speaker 1>who cybercrime victims truly are, the unique challenges they face,

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<v Speaker 1>and well, how the world is racing to catch up.

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<v Speaker 2>And what's particularly compelling about Professor Halder's work, I think

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<v Speaker 2>is her immense practical experience. She's not just a professor

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<v Speaker 2>of law, right, not at all. She founded the Center

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<v Speaker 2>for Cybervictim Counseling in India, and she was actually the

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<v Speaker 2>first to introduce therapeutic jurisprudence, which you know, fundamentally looks

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<v Speaker 2>at how the legal system itself impacts well being to

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<v Speaker 2>law students there, that's fascinating. Yeah, And she even developed

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<v Speaker 2>her own rational coping theory for online victimization. It explores

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<v Speaker 2>why victims sometimes choose coping methods online that seem well

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<v Speaker 2>counterproductive on the surface. Plus her work with huge tech

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<v Speaker 2>companies like Facebook and Instagram and bodies like UNISEF on

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<v Speaker 2>online safety, it just provides this crucial real world perspective

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<v Speaker 2>that's frankly invaluable for understanding this whole space.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so let's unpack this a bit. Victimology, the study

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<v Speaker 1>of victims. It might sound academic, maybe a bit dry,

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<v Speaker 1>but surprisingly, even just defining the term victim has a

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<v Speaker 1>really complex evolving history, especially when it comes to who

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<v Speaker 1>actually gets recognized and supportive.

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<v Speaker 2>That's absolutely right. Historically you had early victimologists like Hinting

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<v Speaker 2>and Fata exploring things like victim vulnerability factors contributing to victimization,

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<v Speaker 2>but this perspective often drew criticism. Why was that, well

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<v Speaker 2>for perhaps unintentionally shifting some of the blame onto the victim,

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<v Speaker 2>you know. And then after World War Two, the legal

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<v Speaker 2>spotlight really really shifted towards the rights of the accused,

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<v Speaker 2>so primary victims often ended up being relegated to just

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<v Speaker 2>witnesses in their own cases, which raises a pretty important question,

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't it. What about the emotional the physical trauma that

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<v Speaker 2>might actually make someone a bad witness in court. Does

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<v Speaker 2>that hinder their ability to get justice?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a crucial point. And here's a truly surprising fact.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it wasn't until nineteen eighty five that the

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<v Speaker 1>term victim even got a universal definition.

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<v Speaker 2>Nineteen eighty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, before that landmark moment, a few countries like Israel, England,

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<v Speaker 1>the US, Canada, they were already sort of pioneering victim

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<v Speaker 1>support policies.

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<v Speaker 2>They're already moving on it, funding surveys on unreported crimes,

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<v Speaker 2>holding National Victims' Rights weeks to raise awareness that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing exactly. And building on that crucial movement, the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty five UN Declaration of Basic Principles of Justice

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<v Speaker 2>for Victims of Crime and Adduce of Power. Well, that

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<v Speaker 2>became a real game changer. It wasn't just a definition,

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<v Speaker 2>It was like a revolution and recognition. It broadly to

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<v Speaker 2>find victims, not just those directly suffering physical or mental injury,

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<v Speaker 2>emotional pain, economic loss, but also immediate family dependence, even

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<v Speaker 2>people who stepped into help. Wow, that's broad, very broad,

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<v Speaker 2>and crucially it applied universally, introduced victim impact statements and

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<v Speaker 2>really emphasized rights to justice, fair treatment, restitution compensation.

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<v Speaker 1>So what this really boils down to, then, is that

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<v Speaker 1>this monumental shift broadened our understanding of victimization way beyond

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<v Speaker 1>just you know, physical violence or property loss. Absolutely, it

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<v Speaker 1>basically laid the essential groundwork for finally recognizing the profound,

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<v Speaker 1>yet often invisible impacts of cybercrime.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, it's set the stage.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, now let's talk about the Internet itself. Think back

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<v Speaker 1>to its early days, I mean, a very different beast

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<v Speaker 1>from what we know today.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, completely different.

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<v Speaker 1>What was truly fascinating is how its evolution, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>from this niche military tool to some of that's part

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<v Speaker 1>of our everyday lives, has directly, almost inevitably shaped the

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<v Speaker 1>very rise of cybercrime.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely. I mean, back in the nineteen sixties, the Internet's precursor,

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<v Speaker 2>it was primarily used for digitizing US military intelligence documents,

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<v Speaker 2>very specific purpose. But by the mid nineteen eighties you

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<v Speaker 2>get companies like Apple coming in democratize and computing, and

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly you see non state actors starting to target vulnerable

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<v Speaker 2>government cyber infrastructure.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah So the early hacking.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly early forms of hacking, rampant music piracy, that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff. Then the early two thousands brought this surge

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<v Speaker 2>in malware, trojans, ransomware, gasty stuff. Yeah, and the emergence

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<v Speaker 2>of sophisticated organized cybercrime groups using tactics like denial of

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<v Speaker 2>service DAWs and distributed denial of service DIDO attacks, basically

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<v Speaker 2>overwhelming a system with traffic to crash it.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you might not realize it, but a really

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<v Speaker 1>significant moment happened with the Budapest Convention on Cybercrime in

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and one.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, yes, Budapest very important.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this wasn't just another document. It was the first

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<v Speaker 1>international agreement to actually categorize these new offenses, put them

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<v Speaker 1>into four main buckets.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, that's right. You had offenses against confidentiality, integrity, availability

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<v Speaker 2>of computer data and systems like illegal access. Then computer

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<v Speaker 2>related offenses forgery, fraud, okay, then content related offenses things

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<v Speaker 2>like child pornography, and finally copyright infringement. It basically provided

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<v Speaker 2>a common language for a global problem.

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<v Speaker 1>Which is huge. But what's striking is how quickly this

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<v Speaker 1>scope of cybercrime just blew past those initial categories. Wasn't that?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Incredibly quickly? Subsequent international documents started tackling even more

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<v Speaker 2>specific issues like the Additional Protocol to the Budapest Convention

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<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and three dealt with racist and xenophobic

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<v Speaker 2>propaganda online.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Then the Council of Europe Convention on Prevention of Terrorism

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<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and five covered using cyberspace for terrorist

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<v Speaker 2>recruiting and training. The Lanzarote Convention in two thousand and

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<v Speaker 2>seven focused specifically on child sexual exploitation, right. And then,

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<v Speaker 2>of course the critical EU General Data Protection Regulation GDP

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty sixteen really zered in on data privacy issues,

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<v Speaker 2>fundamentally changing how data is handled pretty much globally.

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<v Speaker 1>So to bring this to life a bit, think about

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<v Speaker 1>how these digital threats actually played out in the real world.

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<v Speaker 1>Researchers have pointed to the nine to eleven attacks in

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and one as a really chilling example of

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<v Speaker 1>computer tech being used to systematically plan terror.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a sobering example.

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<v Speaker 1>Or consider that devastating two thousand and seven DEDOS attack

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<v Speaker 1>on Estonia, a crippled government websites.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>It showed how offline political anger could just bill directly

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<v Speaker 1>into cyberspace.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and more recently you have groups like ISIS developing

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<v Speaker 2>these incredibly robust online presence. I mean, even using artificial

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence to manipulate emotional intelligence, running web based recruiting systems

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<v Speaker 2>for hate propaganda.

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<v Speaker 1>It's quite sophisticated, which then raises this critical question one

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<v Speaker 1>it's still debated today. I think, Yeah, how do we

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<v Speaker 1>actually distinguish between sophisticated state backed cyber warfare like say

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<v Speaker 1>the Stucks networm, which was allegedly a US Israel thing

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<v Speaker 1>to disrupt the uron's nuclear program, and cyber terrorism, which

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<v Speaker 1>is often done by separatist non state actors.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly the methods things like cyber espionage, unauthorized access, they

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<v Speaker 2>can look strikingly similar, but the motivations and crucially, the

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<v Speaker 2>entities behind them differ significantly, and that impacts how we

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<v Speaker 2>respond legally and militarily. It's a complex distinction.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So, given this ever expanding digital threat landscape, who

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<v Speaker 1>actually falls victim? It's easy to just think of individuals,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe yourself included, But the scope of victim in cyberspace

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<v Speaker 1>is far far broader, isn't it. Yeah, your touch is

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much every level of society.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. If we try to connect this to the

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<v Speaker 2>bigger picture, victims of cybercrime can broadly be categorized into

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<v Speaker 2>say three main groups, governments, companies, and ordinary individuals. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>Governments can be victimized as independent units, especially when national

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<v Speaker 2>security data, military intelligence, confidential commerce info gets breached. They're

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<v Speaker 2>also targets for web hijacking, defacement, embarrassing stuff exactly, even

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<v Speaker 2>if it's not directly supported by an enemy country, it

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<v Speaker 2>can cause significant political embarrassment and become leverage and diplomatic

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<v Speaker 2>tussles that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you give us a specific, maybe impactful.

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<v Speaker 2>Example, Well, think about the Wanna cry ransomware attack back

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<v Speaker 2>in twenty seventeen.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I remember that.

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<v Speaker 2>It was devastating. It didn't just affect the UK's national

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<v Speaker 2>health services, it spread to many other government and private

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<v Speaker 2>hospital systems worldwide. It really highlights how governments, just because

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<v Speaker 2>they hold these massive amounts of sensitive personal data, become

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<v Speaker 2>prime targets, and sometimes their liability for negligence might even

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<v Speaker 2>get shifted to the third party contractors they hire to

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<v Speaker 2>handle that data.

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<v Speaker 1>It gets complicated. What about companies?

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<v Speaker 2>Companies face a dizzying array of threats too, unethical profit schemes,

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<v Speaker 2>ransom demands, phishing, spoofing, money laundering, or sometimes just attacks

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<v Speaker 2>aimed purely at maligning their reputation.

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<v Speaker 1>We've seen some big ones, haven't we.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, major incidents like the LinkedIn hack and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twelve millions of passwords compromise, or British Airways facing that

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<v Speaker 2>huge fine in twenty nineteen after a hack leaked passenger data.

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<v Speaker 2>Companies are also targeted for their unique business strategies, their

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<v Speaker 2>trade secrets, and because they're corporate stakeholders working in different roles,

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<v Speaker 2>their legal responsibilities to clients can vary. They might face

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<v Speaker 2>multiple liabilities across different jurisdictions globally, it's a minefield.

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<v Speaker 1>And then well there are us ordinary individuals. Yeah, exactly,

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<v Speaker 1>We face these common patterns of cybercrime victimization. Yeah, like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, online hate propaganda, economic fraud, sexual offenses, hacking.

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<v Speaker 1>But here's the kicker, isn't it. Many individuals might not

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<v Speaker 1>be digitally savvy enough or maybe financially equipped enough to

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<v Speaker 1>gather the crucial evidence they need to actually convince the

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<v Speaker 1>criminal justice system about their plate.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a huge hurdle, a massive barrier to justice

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<v Speaker 2>for many. And what's fascinating here too, is the broader

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<v Speaker 2>context of well illegal surveillance in the wake of nine

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<v Speaker 2>to eleven and events like the Arab Spring in the

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<v Speaker 2>early twenty tens, governments in many countries became understandably, perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>extremely vigilant about suspicious online activity, right monitoring things, which

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<v Speaker 2>often led them to decrypt private Internet communications, and this

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<v Speaker 2>naturally raised significant concerns about freedom of speech privacy rights.

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<v Speaker 2>You've seen courts, for example, indicating that police facial recognition tools,

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<v Speaker 2>when used as mass surveillance mechanisms, can be illegal and

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<v Speaker 2>violate those privacy rights. It's a constant tension.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay. So, given these expanding, increasingly complex patterns of online victimization,

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<v Speaker 1>how does the criminal justice system even begin to catch

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<v Speaker 1>up with these dynamic, often anonymous threats that just ignore

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<v Speaker 1>physical borders.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the million dollar question, isn't it. Traditional policing training,

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<v Speaker 2>which focuses on physical space crimes often just doesn't fully

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<v Speaker 2>translate to cybercrime. Totally different skills. You need specialized knowledge

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<v Speaker 2>to understand the digital nature of the case, how to

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<v Speaker 2>collect digital evidence without corrupting it, and even how to

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<v Speaker 2>counsel traumatize victims who might struggle to cooperate because of

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<v Speaker 2>their emotional state. However, that Budapest Convention we mentioned earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>it was truly crucial in encouraging states to actually develop

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<v Speaker 2>specific laws, established jurisdiction and offer mutual legal assistance for

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<v Speaker 2>cybercrime cases.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's progress.

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<v Speaker 2>There is progress, we're seeing it. Many countries now have

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<v Speaker 2>specialized police teams. Un bodies like UNODC have developed global

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<v Speaker 2>programs specifically to train officers to handle cybercrime. It's happening,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's a constant race.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, let's unpack the legal side a bit more than

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned countries or developing laws.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, places like the UK, Singapore, Australia, Canada, India, they've

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<v Speaker 2>either enacted specific new laws or amended their existing ones

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<v Speaker 2>to cover cyber offenses. For instance, we'll take the UK's

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<v Speaker 2>Computer Misuse Act, which goes way back to nineteen ninety.

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<v Speaker 2>It penalizes unauthorized access and intentional disruption, and it specifically

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<v Speaker 2>covers serious damage to human welfare like loss of life,

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<v Speaker 2>disruption of essential services, and national security. And in the US,

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<v Speaker 2>in the US, you've got eighteen US Code, Section ten

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<v Speaker 2>thirty that deals with fraud and related activity involving computers.

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<v Speaker 2>It outlines penalties for unauthorized computer access that can range

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<v Speaker 2>from fines all the way up to life imprisonment if

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<v Speaker 2>death results from the conduct or up to twenty years

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<v Speaker 2>for say permanent disfigurement. So serious potential penalties.

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<v Speaker 1>But this raises an important question, right, how effective are

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<v Speaker 1>these punishments? And what about tenology the study of punishment

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<v Speaker 1>for these cyber offenses.

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely still a developing area. I mean, sure, cyberterrorism

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<v Speaker 2>might warrant capital punishment in cases of really grave violence

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<v Speaker 2>against humanity, but the trend for most other cybercrimes is

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<v Speaker 2>often more restrictive, preventative and maybe reformative like what well,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, cyberbullying, trolling, defamation. They might be treated as

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<v Speaker 2>misdemeanors unless, of course, they instigate self harm or directly

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<v Speaker 2>cause physical assault. Okay, but courts are increasingly imposing things

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<v Speaker 2>like restraining orders and fines, and we saw this in

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<v Speaker 2>that Canadian case Caplin Vatas from twenty twenty one. The

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<v Speaker 2>court actually recognized internet harassment as a new type of harm,

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<v Speaker 2>a new torte yeah, and they imposed a restraining order

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<v Speaker 2>against publishing about the victim, specifically acknowledging that the harm

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<v Speaker 2>can and often does continue even after a perpetrator is arrested.

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<v Speaker 1>That point about harm snowballing even after an arrest. That's

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<v Speaker 1>incredibly sobering, isn't it. It really is. Pilot's the unique,

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<v Speaker 1>almost insidious nature of digital attacks compared to traditional crime.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly for the victim. The unique challenge of cyber victimization

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<v Speaker 2>is that the harm can just keep propagating long after

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<v Speaker 2>the perpetrator is identified or even caught. Harmful content stays online.

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<v Speaker 2>It causes ongoing psychological financial impact.

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<v Speaker 1>Which explains maybe why some vict turned to other methods.

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<v Speaker 2>Precisely, this often leads victims to prefer what Professor Halder

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<v Speaker 2>calls those irrational coping methods like counterbulying or maybe contacting

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<v Speaker 2>amateur hackers, largely because the official criminal justice machinery can

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<v Speaker 2>be slow, slow to analyze guilt, slow to pronounce punishment,

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<v Speaker 2>and critically, it doesn't always stop the spread of the

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<v Speaker 2>harmful content.

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<v Speaker 1>So we've journeyed through this really complex world of cybervictimology today.

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<v Speaker 1>We've traced its roots from the historical struggles just to

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<v Speaker 1>define victim, through that landmark UN declaration in nineteen eighty five,

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<v Speaker 1>and now to its current rapidly evolving state. What really

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<v Speaker 1>stood out to you about how traditional legal frameworks are

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<v Speaker 1>adapting or maybe still struggling to keep pace with these

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<v Speaker 1>ever shifting digital harms.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, if we connect this back to the bigger picture,

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<v Speaker 2>I think Professor Holder's work makes it incredibly clear that

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<v Speaker 2>effectively addressing cybercrime victimization it demands unprecedented, almost urgent.

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<v Speaker 1>Collaboration, collaboration between who.

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<v Speaker 2>Between states, non governmental agencies, individual researchers, and critically, the

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<v Speaker 2>web companies themselves. These companies which once operated almost like

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<v Speaker 2>parallel governments with their own content policies right setting their

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<v Speaker 2>own rule exactly, they're now being held far more accountable.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw that in pivotal cases like the Facebook Cambridge

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<v Speaker 2>Analytica data breach and the intense questioning of Facebook's CEO

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<v Speaker 2>by the European Parliament afterwards. It's a fundamental shift and

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility that's underway.

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<v Speaker 1>So ultimately, this deep dive really shows us that as

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<v Speaker 1>our lives become more and more intertwined with the Internet,

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<v Speaker 1>understanding cybervictimology isn't just for legal scholars or policymakers. It's

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<v Speaker 1>really for all of this, isn't it. As digital citizens

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<v Speaker 1>we need to be aware of the vulnerabilities and also

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<v Speaker 1>the ongoing fight for justice in this incredibly dynamic digital realm.

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<v Speaker 2>Well said, it affects everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>So here's a final thought to leave you with. Considering

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<v Speaker 1>how rapidly technology evolves, what new forms of victimization do

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<v Speaker 1>you think might emerge in the next decade, and, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>more importantly, how prepared do you think our legal systems

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<v Speaker 1>will truly be to define and address them effectively.