WEBVTT

1
00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:20.199
<v Speaker 1>The Age of ten from you were listening to the

2
00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:23.160
<v Speaker 1>Age of Transitions. I'm your host, Aaron Franz. Com here

3
00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.839
<v Speaker 1>at you Alive this Friday night, February twenty eight, twenty

4
00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:31.399
<v Speaker 1>twenty five. Live every Friday night from the facilities of

5
00:00:31.559 --> 00:00:35.439
<v Speaker 1>o'chelly dot com ten pm to midnight Eastern Standard Time.

6
00:00:35.799 --> 00:00:38.600
<v Speaker 1>First hour the Age of Transitions. Second hour Uncle of

7
00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:42.759
<v Speaker 1>the podcast. This week again Uncle is away on vacation,

8
00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:45.280
<v Speaker 1>so actually we're doing one hour just the Age of

9
00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.439
<v Speaker 1>Transitions this week, but typically two hours two shows ochelly

10
00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:53.240
<v Speaker 1>dot com. Do consider going to I have a request.

11
00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:56.359
<v Speaker 2>I have a request which came two at a time,

12
00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:00.000
<v Speaker 2>this time from two different listeners to me message direct

13
00:01:00.520 --> 00:01:03.479
<v Speaker 2>that they want you because will you be in touch

14
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:05.120
<v Speaker 2>with Uncle while he's away.

15
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:12.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I honestly, I barely have, mostly because I'm

16
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:16.239
<v Speaker 1>just busy in the days and then I haven't talked

17
00:01:16.319 --> 00:01:18.400
<v Speaker 1>him much. When he gets back things will be back

18
00:01:18.400 --> 00:01:20.640
<v Speaker 1>to normal, but I haven't been talking to him much.

19
00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.439
<v Speaker 2>I got you well a message from a few listeners,

20
00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:26.920
<v Speaker 2>and I've heard this from more than a handful, but

21
00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:32.079
<v Speaker 2>two just now as you went live, okay messaged me

22
00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:35.920
<v Speaker 2>to say tell Uncle that we are very unhappy that

23
00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:39.519
<v Speaker 2>we're having to wait this long for the Super Bowl

24
00:01:39.640 --> 00:01:44.719
<v Speaker 2>bet resolution show. So they are very upset that they

25
00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:47.319
<v Speaker 2>didn't get the resolution on all the bets. We got

26
00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:49.799
<v Speaker 2>Robin and I can't even remember who was on the

27
00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.359
<v Speaker 2>bets now, but we're going to have to go back

28
00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:55.680
<v Speaker 2>over that. And everybody's got an answer for their dirty

29
00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:58.959
<v Speaker 2>dollar bets. So let uncle know that. And they want

30
00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:01.439
<v Speaker 2>them to know that they are unhappy that they had

31
00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:04.120
<v Speaker 2>to wait because he's on vacation.

32
00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well just tell you know. He's a busy guy.

33
00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:10.719
<v Speaker 1>All right, I'll be back. I don't think he'll be

34
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.199
<v Speaker 1>back next week even but the week after, so you're

35
00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:17.439
<v Speaker 1>gonna have to wait. Yeah, he's out there, bab, we'll

36
00:02:17.479 --> 00:02:19.319
<v Speaker 1>be Baseball.

37
00:02:18.599 --> 00:02:20.439
<v Speaker 2>Is going to be cranking up before he gets back.

38
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:22.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what the hell, man, I.

39
00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:24.479
<v Speaker 1>Know the timing is rough on that, but that's the

40
00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:26.360
<v Speaker 1>way it goes.

41
00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:28.000
<v Speaker 2>It is what it is. But I thank you for

42
00:02:28.039 --> 00:02:29.719
<v Speaker 2>doing this Aaron as usual. And I know you were

43
00:02:29.719 --> 00:02:31.400
<v Speaker 2>about to say, you know, go to a Shelly dot

44
00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.240
<v Speaker 2>com and make a donation to keep the network going,

45
00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:36.719
<v Speaker 2>but also really quickly just for your listeners, and then

46
00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:40.039
<v Speaker 2>I'll shut up. I promise, not like last week. But

47
00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:44.439
<v Speaker 2>the thing is, I am openly searching for some of those,

48
00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:49.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, additions for our little island of misfit toys here,

49
00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:52.360
<v Speaker 2>because I think we need to add some broadcasters. So

50
00:02:52.400 --> 00:02:56.120
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to add some broadcasters. And I'm openly discussing

51
00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:59.800
<v Speaker 2>this with people who maybe you're just getting started or

52
00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:02.319
<v Speaker 2>want to extend, or just need a new home for

53
00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.240
<v Speaker 2>what it is they're doing, and would love to add

54
00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:09.319
<v Speaker 2>you to the radio and podcast feeds Prochelly dot com

55
00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:11.520
<v Speaker 2>and the network because right now it's just me, Aaron

56
00:03:11.560 --> 00:03:15.639
<v Speaker 2>and Uncle, and we are the We are the network, okay,

57
00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.800
<v Speaker 2>with a couple of replays on the weekends, yes, but

58
00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:23.800
<v Speaker 2>not too many. So we have lots of open slots,

59
00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:26.240
<v Speaker 2>just saying and oh, by the way, Aaron, we're also

60
00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.479
<v Speaker 2>going to have to change our Skype thing pretty soon.

61
00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:30.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if Yeah, actually that was what I

62
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:32.639
<v Speaker 1>want to talk to afterwards, Chuck. Yeah, I did notice

63
00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:35.159
<v Speaker 1>that focus of news, like, well, we can't use that anymore.

64
00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.120
<v Speaker 2>Well, we'll be talking about that when we're done with broadcasting,

65
00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:39.719
<v Speaker 2>but I just want to let you know that we

66
00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:42.520
<v Speaker 2>won't be able to say anymore, Hey, you can join

67
00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:47.120
<v Speaker 2>us via Skype because Skype is going away, so we're

68
00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:49.439
<v Speaker 2>gonna have to use Microsoft Teams if we want to

69
00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:53.520
<v Speaker 2>transition my stuff into it. And yeah, I'm not happy

70
00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:55.800
<v Speaker 2>about it, but who knows, maybe it'll open us up

71
00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.439
<v Speaker 2>to other possibilities, so maybe it's a good thing. And

72
00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:03.759
<v Speaker 2>broadcasters have complained for years about Skype, which is funny

73
00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:07.800
<v Speaker 2>because almost everybody still uses it to some degree. But

74
00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:09.919
<v Speaker 2>now they're going to get their wish Well, Skype, they

75
00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:12.960
<v Speaker 2>need to do better. Well, now Bill Gates is going

76
00:04:13.039 --> 00:04:15.039
<v Speaker 2>to give you teams and force you onto that. He's

77
00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:17.040
<v Speaker 2>even going to transfer the credits over if you have

78
00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:21.399
<v Speaker 2>any credits for your subscriptions or whatever after twenty something years.

79
00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:23.399
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, I was wondering about the credits because

80
00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:25.759
<v Speaker 1>I do have ten dollars. Actually, I thought about doing

81
00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:28.839
<v Speaker 1>maybe an Uncle show or a series of Uncle shows

82
00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:31.439
<v Speaker 1>where we use up the rest of my ten dollars

83
00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:33.800
<v Speaker 1>in Skype credit. Since it's going away, we just called

84
00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:36.240
<v Speaker 1>numbers and make that a show on the Uncle's Show.

85
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.079
<v Speaker 1>I thought might be fun.

86
00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:39.120
<v Speaker 2>Hey, that would be cool, But you do have the

87
00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:41.439
<v Speaker 2>option of saving it and allowing it to transfer to

88
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Microsoft Teams.

89
00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:45.160
<v Speaker 1>Just so you know, I might want to just use

90
00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:47.480
<v Speaker 1>it because I don't. First of all, I think it'll

91
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:50.199
<v Speaker 1>be funny. Second of all, I don't know if I

92
00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:53.319
<v Speaker 1>want to transfer over, but we'll see. That remains to

93
00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.160
<v Speaker 1>be seen. That's a whole lot of whatever. It's just

94
00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:56.959
<v Speaker 1>another stupid program.

95
00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:56.839
<v Speaker 2>I know.

96
00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:57.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean whatever.

97
00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, And look, I've got about thirty five. So

98
00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:02.199
<v Speaker 2>you know what if you guys run out and you're like,

99
00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:04.000
<v Speaker 2>oh damn, I wish I had more credits on the

100
00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.439
<v Speaker 2>Skype and you need it, let me know. I'll work

101
00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:08.079
<v Speaker 2>with you on it. We'll use my Skype credits.

102
00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:12.959
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, yeah. We did call on a live stream

103
00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:16.839
<v Speaker 1>on a Saturday when we were watching videos. We called

104
00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:20.040
<v Speaker 1>one eight hundred VHS tape nice. So you know, maybe

105
00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:22.759
<v Speaker 1>call some numbers like that up and see if we

106
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:25.920
<v Speaker 1>can get anywhere with it. Nobody answered when we called

107
00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:29.399
<v Speaker 1>that number, but I'm sure we can call something like, yeah,

108
00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:31.360
<v Speaker 1>there's all sorts of numbers we could call, so maybe

109
00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:32.560
<v Speaker 1>we'll make that a little show.

110
00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.199
<v Speaker 2>Did you know in New Jersey there was an exchange

111
00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:38.639
<v Speaker 2>where you could literally dial six six six hell just

112
00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.959
<v Speaker 2>saying uh, you could dial it, and a guy used

113
00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.160
<v Speaker 2>to answer it, and he was periodically aggravated.

114
00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:50.439
<v Speaker 1>Okay, oh oh, okay, okay, yeah, because he kept okay.

115
00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.879
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't an actual service call. It was just like

116
00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:56.079
<v Speaker 1>a call, like a goof like eight six seven five

117
00:05:56.199 --> 00:05:58.480
<v Speaker 1>three oh nine. You call that and then some old lady,

118
00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:00.839
<v Speaker 1>poor old lady has answered to deal with it.

119
00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:01.480
<v Speaker 3>Was like that.

120
00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.160
<v Speaker 2>There was some guy that for about a decade, I

121
00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.639
<v Speaker 2>know this living in New Jersey. It was a workable

122
00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:08.839
<v Speaker 2>exchange in nine oh eight and seven three two. You

123
00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:12.079
<v Speaker 2>could dial six six six hell on your phone and

124
00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:15.040
<v Speaker 2>it would connect to this guy's number, and it was

125
00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.199
<v Speaker 2>this same guy. I heard it when I was like thirteen,

126
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:21.120
<v Speaker 2>and I heard it again when I was twenty three,

127
00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and I swear to you, I was like, wow, the

128
00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:24.759
<v Speaker 2>same guy still has this number.

129
00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:29.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeh's ay, he's dealing with it. He's just living impressive. Yeah.

130
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:31.839
<v Speaker 2>And it was a landline in New Jersey. So I

131
00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.079
<v Speaker 2>don't know if it still exists, guys. So you know

132
00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.560
<v Speaker 2>what's funny is I may have just prompted some people

133
00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:38.920
<v Speaker 2>to go, let me just dial New Jersey's exchange and

134
00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:42.800
<v Speaker 2>see whatever they might do it. I don't know if

135
00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:45.199
<v Speaker 2>you should. I guarantee it can't be the same living.

136
00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:49.839
<v Speaker 2>The same guy sounded pretty old in like nineteen ninety

137
00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:51.920
<v Speaker 2>nine or what. Let me think about this, I was

138
00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.959
<v Speaker 2>twenty three. What year, let's see ninety two. Oh, it

139
00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:57.800
<v Speaker 2>was twenty three in nineteen ninety five. So the guy

140
00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:01.680
<v Speaker 2>sounded old in nineteen ninety five. Okay, I don't think

141
00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.680
<v Speaker 2>he's still around, But wouldn't that be funny if it

142
00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.920
<v Speaker 2>was the same guy and then twenty three years later

143
00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:10.480
<v Speaker 2>from now, still the same guy answers the phone. I'm

144
00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:13.360
<v Speaker 2>just saying he was. And by the way, it wasn't

145
00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.120
<v Speaker 2>just like the guy was definitely I don't know if

146
00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.600
<v Speaker 2>he was playing along with it, but he was not

147
00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:25.439
<v Speaker 2>like it seemed like you might have been talking to

148
00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:29.720
<v Speaker 2>somebody who was not necessarily one hundred percent in this realm.

149
00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:34.040
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, that's exciting. I'm really glad that that's the

150
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:34.879
<v Speaker 1>way it worked out.

151
00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:38.000
<v Speaker 2>It was very weird, Like the guy was definitely annoyed

152
00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.040
<v Speaker 2>and he said it was a regular phone line, but

153
00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:43.120
<v Speaker 2>then he said other things, and he did it a

154
00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.480
<v Speaker 2>ten year span apart. It's the same guy and he's

155
00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.600
<v Speaker 2>still talking weird stuff. When you asked him questions or

156
00:07:49.600 --> 00:07:51.399
<v Speaker 2>he said stuff to him, he.

157
00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Would have very weird responses, Well, it's like the human

158
00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.439
<v Speaker 1>phone Wiji board thing. That's cool almost and I've heard

159
00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.399
<v Speaker 1>other weird urban legends about that. But literally, there was

160
00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:04.959
<v Speaker 1>a six to sixty six hell in New Jersey.

161
00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.319
<v Speaker 2>So just say it, all right, Aaron, I'll leave you

162
00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:09.639
<v Speaker 2>to your show now that I've given you weird food

163
00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:11.759
<v Speaker 2>for thought. Thank you very good.

164
00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:17.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well now, uncle, but you got me Ohelly dot

165
00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:20.720
<v Speaker 1>com Live show Friday night. Here we are the Age

166
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.519
<v Speaker 1>of Transitions dot Com. My website, you can find my

167
00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:26.959
<v Speaker 1>book Revolve Man Scientific Rise to Godhead. It's in paperback

168
00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:30.759
<v Speaker 1>or ebook copies. There also have t shirts for the show.

169
00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:35.519
<v Speaker 1>We have the Patreon campaign. Thank you for supporting on Patreon.

170
00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:38.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna I believe I'll be able to post a

171
00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:42.559
<v Speaker 1>new Patreon post with the next tape in the series

172
00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.600
<v Speaker 1>from the Singularity Summit two thousand and nine tapes, and

173
00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:51.559
<v Speaker 1>we'll get some more interesting interviews that Carlos and I

174
00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:54.720
<v Speaker 1>got at that event all these many years ago now,

175
00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:58.279
<v Speaker 1>so I'll be posting that upson look for that. Also

176
00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:02.720
<v Speaker 1>have the affiliate links bookshop dot org. Click on the

177
00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.159
<v Speaker 1>link of the side of my website to bookshop dot org.

178
00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.480
<v Speaker 1>Done anything you buy, well, I'll get a small kickback

179
00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.440
<v Speaker 1>for sending you there, and we'll cost anything exkewer to use,

180
00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:14.519
<v Speaker 1>so please do remember to do that. Also, if you're

181
00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:18.000
<v Speaker 1>thinking about starting a podcast, Libsyn use that as your

182
00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:21.240
<v Speaker 1>podcast hosting service. You can use my promo code fronds.

183
00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:24.320
<v Speaker 1>You'll get two months of libs in for free. It's

184
00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:29.279
<v Speaker 1>a great service, all right. So with that aside, thank

185
00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:31.519
<v Speaker 1>you for listening. This is a special show because it

186
00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:36.000
<v Speaker 1>is an interview. I did an interview pre recorded last weekend.

187
00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.759
<v Speaker 1>I recorded an interview with Anita se Chan, who is

188
00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:45.320
<v Speaker 1>the author of Predatory Data, Eugenics in Big Tech, and

189
00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:51.159
<v Speaker 1>Our Fight for an Independent Future. It was nice enough

190
00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:55.559
<v Speaker 1>for her publisher to send me a copy of the book,

191
00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:58.399
<v Speaker 1>which I'm holding right now. I will say that I'm

192
00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:00.279
<v Speaker 1>a little embarrassed when I did the interview. I haven't

193
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:02.120
<v Speaker 1>read at all yet, but I am part of the

194
00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:04.120
<v Speaker 1>way through now, and I will say it is an

195
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:10.759
<v Speaker 1>excellent book that I honestly recommend, and the subject matter

196
00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:15.600
<v Speaker 1>is one of those things that is integral to this site.

197
00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:21.600
<v Speaker 1>I've talked about the links to eugenics and technology, transhumanism,

198
00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.240
<v Speaker 1>the big tech scene generally. I've been talking about this

199
00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.879
<v Speaker 1>for quite a while, but honestly, it's been a while

200
00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:32.240
<v Speaker 1>since I've covered anything about it on this show, for sure.

201
00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:35.240
<v Speaker 1>So it's a good thing to return to that very

202
00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:41.360
<v Speaker 1>important and real topic and connection of eugenics and big tech.

203
00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:46.279
<v Speaker 1>So Anita say Chan, my guest here, does a great

204
00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:51.159
<v Speaker 1>job of that. This book is really good and yeah,

205
00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:57.960
<v Speaker 1>worthwhile reading to remember that all these things that we

206
00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.000
<v Speaker 1>take for granted in this high tech world we're living in,

207
00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:12.360
<v Speaker 1>they have very real, disturbing philosophical origins that the proprietors

208
00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:15.600
<v Speaker 1>of all the big tech proprietors of all these things

209
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.159
<v Speaker 1>that we use, all these digital toise and whatnot that

210
00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:24.360
<v Speaker 1>we have, they don't want us to see that connection.

211
00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.799
<v Speaker 1>That's for sure. It's real, it needs to be remembered,

212
00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:35.399
<v Speaker 1>and I'm sure today's show is going to do a

213
00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:40.759
<v Speaker 1>good job in helping along with that. If Now, what's

214
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:48.039
<v Speaker 1>also interesting is Anita mentioned on the interview she recommended

215
00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.200
<v Speaker 1>that you go to bookshop dot org to buy the book,

216
00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:52.480
<v Speaker 1>which you can, and I will have a link on

217
00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.399
<v Speaker 1>the post for this show at my website to post

218
00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:57.679
<v Speaker 1>for this interview. I have a link that actually goes

219
00:11:57.720 --> 00:11:59.759
<v Speaker 1>to my bookshop and you can buy this book, which

220
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:02.759
<v Speaker 1>I recommend. And once you know that, I thought that

221
00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:08.960
<v Speaker 1>was a kind of interesting synchronicity there. So with all

222
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:13.240
<v Speaker 1>of that in mind, I think we're just going to

223
00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:17.840
<v Speaker 1>play this interview now, So please enjoy my interview with

224
00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Anita say Chan Today on the show, I welcome a

225
00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:25.360
<v Speaker 1>special guest, the author of Predatory Data, Eugenics and Big

226
00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Tech and Our Fight for an Independent Future. Anita say Chant,

227
00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:31.200
<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the show.

228
00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:32.879
<v Speaker 4>Thanks for having me.

229
00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes, I really appreciate you being here. I have a

230
00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:41.399
<v Speaker 1>copy of your book in my hands. But to begin

231
00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:44.279
<v Speaker 1>this interview, why don't you just let my audience know

232
00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:46.559
<v Speaker 1>who you are, who you are, what you do.

233
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:53.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I am a information scientist and media studies scholar

234
00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:58.679
<v Speaker 4>based at the University of Illinois and again chap and

235
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:03.840
<v Speaker 4>I worked on Farminess and Yell approaches to technology with

236
00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:05.679
<v Speaker 4>a background in science and technology.

237
00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:12.159
<v Speaker 1>St Okay, very good. Now what about this book, Predatory Data?

238
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:15.559
<v Speaker 1>What is this? What led you to write it? What's

239
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:15.879
<v Speaker 1>going on?

240
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:17.600
<v Speaker 5>Well?

241
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:22.200
<v Speaker 6>Uh, it is my second book, and uh it was

242
00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:29.440
<v Speaker 6>a book that I had written after moving to the.

243
00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:33.600
<v Speaker 4>School of Information Sciences at the University of Illinois. I

244
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:35.679
<v Speaker 4>had had my primary line in the College of Media,

245
00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.639
<v Speaker 4>and what I discovered when I moved to the School

246
00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.720
<v Speaker 4>of Information Sciences was that a lot of my students,

247
00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:47.840
<v Speaker 4>even some of my colleagues, weren't so familiar with the

248
00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:52.559
<v Speaker 4>history of our field, including really importantly how deeply the

249
00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:57.480
<v Speaker 4>foundations of information sciences, including the foundations of the kind

250
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.240
<v Speaker 4>of data economy and the technical and methods of statistical

251
00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:05.559
<v Speaker 4>aggression that we continue to teach our students as really

252
00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.399
<v Speaker 4>the kind of again foundation to predictive methods. It's everything

253
00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:14.480
<v Speaker 4>that we in data ecologies. It's essentially why you see

254
00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:18.039
<v Speaker 4>but determines what you see on most forms of social

255
00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:22.840
<v Speaker 4>media and online media that we encounter today. All those

256
00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:27.440
<v Speaker 4>forms of predictive methods and methodologies all have their roots

257
00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:30.840
<v Speaker 4>in eugenics. But it was a history that I discovered

258
00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:34.200
<v Speaker 4>that most of my students and many of my colleagues

259
00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:37.080
<v Speaker 4>even were not so familiar with, and which is pretty

260
00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:42.080
<v Speaker 4>astounding to me, given how powerful the American eugenics movement

261
00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:46.000
<v Speaker 4>was and how policy is shaped our information cology, not

262
00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:48.799
<v Speaker 4>just in the nineteenth century, but as I say, with

263
00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.039
<v Speaker 4>the methods that they developed that continue to shape our

264
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:53.200
<v Speaker 4>information economy today.

265
00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:56.440
<v Speaker 1>All Right, Well, that's fascinating. I have to say I

266
00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.559
<v Speaker 1>didn't know that full story, but wow. So what you're

267
00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:03.679
<v Speaker 1>saying is you switched over from media in at your

268
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:08.200
<v Speaker 1>school teaching that to it essentially like what used to

269
00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:13.039
<v Speaker 1>be called COMPSI is that information sciences. That's that's equivalent, right,

270
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.639
<v Speaker 1>It's a separate field.

271
00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:17.799
<v Speaker 4>Information sciences is proxy. It's a stem. It is a

272
00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:21.480
<v Speaker 4>stem based the science and technology based discipline. But it's

273
00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:24.799
<v Speaker 4>not the same as computer science. It's still it has

274
00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.879
<v Speaker 4>its roots in library sciences, and so there's still unlike

275
00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:32.879
<v Speaker 4>computer science and information sciences, there's still a human user.

276
00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:37.000
<v Speaker 4>Their original sort of conception of the human user that's

277
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.519
<v Speaker 4>central to the discipline was the library user, like the

278
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.159
<v Speaker 4>user of library systems, whether it was the librarian and

279
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:45.480
<v Speaker 4>training or whether it was the human who was using

280
00:15:45.519 --> 00:15:51.600
<v Speaker 4>those indices and those archives and essential databases of the

281
00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:55.600
<v Speaker 4>library system. So that's different than the computer science where

282
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:58.399
<v Speaker 4>your software systems. Right. So, but they're quite proxy, and

283
00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.279
<v Speaker 4>many of our students, much like in computer science, go

284
00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:04.679
<v Speaker 4>on to work in Silicon the valley. It's a very

285
00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:09.799
<v Speaker 4>very normal trajectory for professions information scientists to get trained

286
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:15.000
<v Speaker 4>to work in information professions that include data sciences, in

287
00:16:14.679 --> 00:16:17.240
<v Speaker 4>h in big tech and corporate sectors.

288
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.639
<v Speaker 1>Got it. So all of this stuff is separate, but

289
00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:26.519
<v Speaker 1>it's analogous and they all work together. Okay, So and

290
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:30.200
<v Speaker 1>this is essentially like the cataloging of information, is what

291
00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:32.039
<v Speaker 1>it is if we kind of want to break it

292
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:32.879
<v Speaker 1>down into.

293
00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:38.919
<v Speaker 4>Sure, yeah, exactly exactly, system of classification, indices, information management,

294
00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:45.759
<v Speaker 4>all of that, archives, archival management and design, interrelation between

295
00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:51.039
<v Speaker 4>archival systems, and again, how all of that gets interpreted, used,

296
00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.559
<v Speaker 4>processed by humans. All of that is you know, central

297
00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:56.759
<v Speaker 4>to information sciences.

298
00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, thank you for bearing with me. I know this

299
00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:03.120
<v Speaker 1>is all basic. How Ever, I'm getting the sense that

300
00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:07.079
<v Speaker 1>the basic elements of this might be what's most important, because,

301
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:13.079
<v Speaker 1>as you're saying, when you were switching fields, it seems

302
00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:19.160
<v Speaker 1>like your previous specialty in media helped inform what you

303
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:23.160
<v Speaker 1>were doing. It's like what we what you were saying, was, hey,

304
00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:28.599
<v Speaker 1>look there is a philosophy behind this. What appears to

305
00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.839
<v Speaker 1>just be banal information, you know, like data entry and

306
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.039
<v Speaker 1>things like that, This isn't just data entry where we're

307
00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:41.559
<v Speaker 1>just in putting data and numbers into this digital library.

308
00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:46.839
<v Speaker 1>There's actually like there's reasons and perhaps even philosophy for

309
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:48.559
<v Speaker 1>how this the genesis of this?

310
00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:51.680
<v Speaker 4>Right, there's a politics and a cultural history to all

311
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:54.599
<v Speaker 4>of these things. I mean so coming from critical humanities

312
00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:58.200
<v Speaker 4>and media studies I sort of and science technology studies

313
00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:02.160
<v Speaker 4>is my foundation discipline. Those sorts of sort of of

314
00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:09.640
<v Speaker 4>methodologies of critical histories, cultural histories, sort of looking into

315
00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:14.680
<v Speaker 4>the history of knowledge practices and disciplines is pretty foundational

316
00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:20.720
<v Speaker 4>to what we do in critical humanities, right, and especially

317
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:25.000
<v Speaker 4>from sort of historical and cultural historical perspectives. So the

318
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:30.160
<v Speaker 4>name Francis Galton for most, uh most, I hope most

319
00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.319
<v Speaker 4>of your listeners who made who are interested in history

320
00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:34.119
<v Speaker 4>would be familiar.

321
00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Yes, he's the.

322
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:41.279
<v Speaker 4>Founder of eugenics, of course. And the connection that gets

323
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.160
<v Speaker 4>lost oftentimes is not just that he was, you know,

324
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:50.039
<v Speaker 4>this sort of cousin of Charles Darwin who came who

325
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.559
<v Speaker 4>was part of these patrician elite circles and scientific circles

326
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:58.599
<v Speaker 4>in the late nineteenth century. Uh, And that of course

327
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:01.319
<v Speaker 4>he had you know, for many people will know that

328
00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:06.000
<v Speaker 4>he was a sort of aton, you know, kind of

329
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.519
<v Speaker 4>scientist who was meandering and sort of you know, dipping

330
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:13.279
<v Speaker 4>his toes into a number of different disciplines before he

331
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:16.279
<v Speaker 4>really found eugenics as his cause. You know, he was

332
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:22.000
<v Speaker 4>doing work in uh colonial data collection and meteorology and

333
00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:27.359
<v Speaker 4>was known for being obsessed with counting. As he sort

334
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:32.359
<v Speaker 4>of came about and by the late eighteen sixties to

335
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.519
<v Speaker 4>start to write his first treatises on eugenics, we had

336
00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:37.920
<v Speaker 4>to remember that the world in the late nineteenth century

337
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.319
<v Speaker 4>was one that was being shaped, of course by new

338
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:49.119
<v Speaker 4>patterns of globalization, independence movements internationally, industrializations in cities and

339
00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.319
<v Speaker 4>across the West that really changed the demographics of what

340
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.599
<v Speaker 4>urban London looked like, of what various cities across the

341
00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:01.359
<v Speaker 4>United States look like. And for Galton this was this

342
00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:05.960
<v Speaker 4>kind of obsession with not just counting, but also his

343
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:09.200
<v Speaker 4>preoccupation and his real concern suddenly of what would this

344
00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:13.319
<v Speaker 4>mean to see this kind of new proximity and mingling

345
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:17.440
<v Speaker 4>of classes and diverse populations in ways that he had

346
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:20.599
<v Speaker 4>never seen before. What would that mean for the future

347
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.119
<v Speaker 4>of the nation, for the future of the West. And

348
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.759
<v Speaker 4>he was quite convinced that in the long run, this

349
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:31.319
<v Speaker 4>kind of continued mixing without any version of moderation or

350
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:35.359
<v Speaker 4>without control, and certainly without sort of any kind of

351
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:40.640
<v Speaker 4>public education around the eventual degeneration that he was convinced

352
00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:44.759
<v Speaker 4>would happen would lead to a kind of national demise

353
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.839
<v Speaker 4>and a kind of larger demise of the West, and

354
00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:53.480
<v Speaker 4>his program and eugenics really started to sort of trace

355
00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:57.799
<v Speaker 4>and attempt to impuricize the kind of work and the

356
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.480
<v Speaker 4>value and the pretible fitness of the well born classes

357
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.680
<v Speaker 4>to continue to generate the well born, but that uh

358
00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:13.400
<v Speaker 4>would increase mingling, that would end up essentially being a

359
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:20.160
<v Speaker 4>program for degeneration, for genetic degeneration, economic degeneration, social degeneration,

360
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:24.839
<v Speaker 4>but eventually also national degeneration. Uh So his uh, his

361
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:30.240
<v Speaker 4>obsession really not just with counting, but his deep anxiety

362
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:36.759
<v Speaker 4>and paranoia around racial demise was really what drove him

363
00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:41.319
<v Speaker 4>to develop all the all the kinds of methodologies for eugenics,

364
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:44.960
<v Speaker 4>for data tracking, for ratification of human populations, and eventually

365
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:50.319
<v Speaker 4>to found the method of stisco aggression. Again all driven

366
00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:55.480
<v Speaker 4>by his kind of deep anxiety around around uh eugenic

367
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.599
<v Speaker 4>cro of the that the failure to implement a eugenic

368
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.079
<v Speaker 4>program would essentially need to the demise and the fall

369
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:03.640
<v Speaker 4>of the West.

370
00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating to see the genesis of eugenics

371
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:13.920
<v Speaker 1>with Galton. Uh, and then the history of that brought

372
00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:18.920
<v Speaker 1>over to the States, Cold Springs Harbor, all of that,

373
00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:25.160
<v Speaker 1>and just listening to your description of Francis Galton and

374
00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:31.039
<v Speaker 1>his ideas about this, uh, I mean, you can see

375
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:34.680
<v Speaker 1>how it's I mean, it came to the States, and

376
00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:37.559
<v Speaker 1>then eventually this becomes taboo. I don't know if we

377
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:41.680
<v Speaker 1>want to jump forward that far already, but eventually eugenics

378
00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:45.960
<v Speaker 1>falls out of favor, and so then the idea of

379
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:51.039
<v Speaker 1>crypto eugenics comes to the fore. Isr is your book

380
00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:55.720
<v Speaker 1>here predatory data about like the new version of crypto eugenics.

381
00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:57.759
<v Speaker 1>Is crypto eugens even real? Is that? Like?

382
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:03.279
<v Speaker 4>No, Yeah, I call it techno eugenics and uh, And

383
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:06.720
<v Speaker 4>the parallels that I draw is that there's continuities between

384
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.200
<v Speaker 4>the first generation of eugenesis and the kind of version

385
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:15.640
<v Speaker 4>of new techno eugenesis that we're seeing really taking over

386
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:21.160
<v Speaker 4>the White House and uh implementing a fairly large program

387
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:27.559
<v Speaker 4>for the attack and the deconstruction of democratic institutions. And

388
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.680
<v Speaker 4>in part of the book is written also to remind

389
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:34.960
<v Speaker 4>ourselves that this kind of program, this version of scientists

390
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:39.000
<v Speaker 4>to use their kind of stature as scientists and their

391
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:44.160
<v Speaker 4>proximity to data, specifically their techniques around the surveillance and

392
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:51.799
<v Speaker 4>monitoring of populations, and their conceit that, and their conviction

393
00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:54.799
<v Speaker 4>and their argument over and over again that the numbers

394
00:23:54.880 --> 00:24:01.440
<v Speaker 4>always showed some version of natural hierarchy questionable, I should say, right,

395
00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:03.400
<v Speaker 4>I mean the book I think details quite well how

396
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:07.119
<v Speaker 4>this was always this was Eugenics was the first age

397
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.720
<v Speaker 4>of disinformation. But data never actually showed what and could

398
00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:16.440
<v Speaker 4>prove what Galton and his fellow eugenicists sought to ultimately

399
00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:21.480
<v Speaker 4>try and convince the larger public, But they continuously doctored

400
00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:24.720
<v Speaker 4>their information and the data that they collected to try

401
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:31.160
<v Speaker 4>and again, everything from literally editing photos to trying to

402
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:36.920
<v Speaker 4>doctor surveys or effectively doctoring surveys that were to be

403
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:42.039
<v Speaker 4>used as IQ exams for immigrant populations coming into Ellis

404
00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:46.400
<v Speaker 4>Island so that they could argue that eighty percent of

405
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.880
<v Speaker 4>the immigrants coming into Ellis Island in the US, who

406
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:54.480
<v Speaker 4>were at the time largely Southern Eastern and Jewish immigrants

407
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:58.839
<v Speaker 4>coming in that eighty percent of these non Nordic classes

408
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:04.519
<v Speaker 4>and non Nordic raceces were essentially feeble minded and shouldn't

409
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.960
<v Speaker 4>be allowed to come into the US. Because of this

410
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:12.480
<v Speaker 4>kind of form of disinformation and the manipulation of data,

411
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:16.920
<v Speaker 4>they were able to effectively lobby for changes to immigration law,

412
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.759
<v Speaker 4>So the nineteen seventeen and nineteen twenty four immigration laws

413
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:27.160
<v Speaker 4>which put in the first quotas racialized quotas that into

414
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:32.759
<v Speaker 4>US immigration policy and essentially designed them to privilege Nordic places,

415
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:39.599
<v Speaker 4>so Northern Europeans, and to essentially cut off and limit

416
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.240
<v Speaker 4>immigration coming in from Southern Europe, Eastern Europe. Jewish immigrants,

417
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:47.960
<v Speaker 4>et cetera. Latin American and African immigrants of course, had

418
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:53.759
<v Speaker 4>were reduced, and Asian immigration from Asia was almost completely

419
00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.480
<v Speaker 4>cut off into the nineteen fifties they had managed previously,

420
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:01.960
<v Speaker 4>and eugenesis, as the LOOC also details and covers and reviews,

421
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:06.720
<v Speaker 4>had managed to effectively put into place Chinese exclusion laws

422
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:10.039
<v Speaker 4>starting in the eighteen seventies, with the first band on

423
00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:16.960
<v Speaker 4>Chinese women, initially essentially arguing that they were contaminants to

424
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:20.359
<v Speaker 4>the race, that they were bringing in bad blood uh

425
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:27.160
<v Speaker 4>and would essentially infect good, middle class, heteronormative white families

426
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:31.880
<v Speaker 4>with their bad blood and would contaminate populations with sexual disease,

427
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:41.000
<v Speaker 4>but also forms of supposedly uh uh uh contaminating moral

428
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:49.200
<v Speaker 4>depravities like criminality, opia, addiction, laziness, all of these things

429
00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:54.640
<v Speaker 4>were thought to be essentially a contaminating force that the

430
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:59.759
<v Speaker 4>Chinese were bringing in and that Chinese women especially were

431
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.680
<v Speaker 4>kind of key source of and so our very first

432
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.960
<v Speaker 4>the first globally exclusion acts for immigrants anywhere in the

433
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.599
<v Speaker 4>world was quite in place, uh in the US first

434
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:16.160
<v Speaker 4>against Chinese women. Against that notion essentially argued by eugenicists,

435
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:21.440
<v Speaker 4>medical professionals at the time, other science scientific classes, and

436
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:25.440
<v Speaker 4>public health officials who testified to the validity of this,

437
00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:31.240
<v Speaker 4>to the authority of this, and again we're, as I mentioned,

438
00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:35.200
<v Speaker 4>quite inclined to manipulate data in order to make the

439
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:39.039
<v Speaker 4>kinds of arguments and essentially promulgate disinformation in order to

440
00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:41.240
<v Speaker 4>make the kinds of arguments that they did, but were

441
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.319
<v Speaker 4>quite effective at doing so, and they're in uh. Immigration

442
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:49.480
<v Speaker 4>law for the next five five decades. Really in the

443
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:55.160
<v Speaker 4>US would be redesigned through eugenic effective eugenic policy lobbying

444
00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.160
<v Speaker 4>and organizing, and so this is a reminder for us

445
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:04.519
<v Speaker 4>of how effective this kind of uses of disinformation by

446
00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:09.599
<v Speaker 4>scientific classes, again using and collecting data on human populations,

447
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:15.119
<v Speaker 4>manipulating that data, targeting political classes with their messaging, and

448
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.440
<v Speaker 4>larger publics in order to affect new policy. We have

449
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.759
<v Speaker 4>precedent for all of this from over one hundred years ago,

450
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.559
<v Speaker 4>and it got quite far, not just with eugenic policy,

451
00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:31.440
<v Speaker 4>not just with eugenic policies that articulated themselves through changes

452
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.960
<v Speaker 4>and radical changes and immigration law, but even the passage

453
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:40.200
<v Speaker 4>of things like sterilization laws of the unfit in over

454
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:44.319
<v Speaker 4>thirty states. By the late nineteen twenties, most of the

455
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.920
<v Speaker 4>US thirty states, more than thirty states that is, had

456
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:53.599
<v Speaker 4>passed for sterilization, enabled the for sterilization of the unfit,

457
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:57.839
<v Speaker 4>the quote unquote so called unfit who were in state institutions,

458
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:03.440
<v Speaker 4>and states in the West were quite we're quite leading

459
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.319
<v Speaker 4>promulgators of this. In California was one of the California

460
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:09.960
<v Speaker 4>in Indiana or two of the first states with David

461
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:15.880
<v Speaker 4>Starr Jordan, who was initially a professor at the University

462
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:18.920
<v Speaker 4>of Indiana, who then moved, of course, famously to become

463
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:24.839
<v Speaker 4>the first president of Stanford University UH and dedicated much

464
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:30.039
<v Speaker 4>of his career to becoming to being an active pro

465
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.640
<v Speaker 4>eugenic advocate and leader helped to found one of the

466
00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:39.079
<v Speaker 4>uh uh David star Jordan not only but published and

467
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.799
<v Speaker 4>wrote pro eugenic treatises that became best sellers in their day,

468
00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:48.720
<v Speaker 4>but also founded various eugenic societies grounded in the West

469
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:54.880
<v Speaker 4>Coast that brought in fellow leaders in political sectors, scientific

470
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:58.359
<v Speaker 4>and commercial that is, business sectors, sort of the elite

471
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:01.880
<v Speaker 4>of the elite UH and fellow patrician classes of the

472
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:05.480
<v Speaker 4>in the US to organize really a kind of eugenic

473
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:11.759
<v Speaker 4>network and to really help to create make California into

474
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:14.920
<v Speaker 4>and parts of the West Lieling into sort of models

475
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.519
<v Speaker 4>for what eugen policy can supposedly bring about.

476
00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's wild. And of course we have Stanford, big

477
00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:30.720
<v Speaker 1>hub for technology, absolutely, and it's just it's it's really something,

478
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:34.839
<v Speaker 1>and it's uh, it's something to see this because what

479
00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:40.880
<v Speaker 1>we're seeing is an ebb and flow of this same thing,

480
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:46.000
<v Speaker 1>which is eugenics, the concept of eugenic genics ebbing and flowing,

481
00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:51.799
<v Speaker 1>and eugenics being used as a I mean, what this

482
00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:56.319
<v Speaker 1>is is a pseudoscience, right, uh, going under the banner

483
00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:59.319
<v Speaker 1>of legitimate science. It's like, hey, we've got legitimate science,

484
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:04.599
<v Speaker 1>We've got this biological so they're using like this biological

485
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:09.640
<v Speaker 1>data that they say corresponds to the social sciences, and

486
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.319
<v Speaker 1>then they wrap that over into politics, like, hey, we

487
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.559
<v Speaker 1>gotta you know, we got to make these new laws

488
00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:17.759
<v Speaker 1>because hey, we have we have the proof here eugenics

489
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:22.599
<v Speaker 1>is real. Okay, and so and so. That's just so

490
00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.400
<v Speaker 1>there's so many things going on. There's so many obfuscations.

491
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:31.680
<v Speaker 4>Correct. Yeah, it was, as the book argues, and eugenics,

492
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:35.359
<v Speaker 4>and I would argue as well, contemporary techno eugenics with

493
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:41.839
<v Speaker 4>the kind of again marriage of a radical version of

494
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:46.960
<v Speaker 4>of eliticism that has articulated itself throughout Silicon Valley and

495
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:50.799
<v Speaker 4>now wants to remake policy not just in the US,

496
00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:53.880
<v Speaker 4>but as we can see now with books like Elon

497
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:58.519
<v Speaker 4>Musk really sort of meddling directly and starting to throw

498
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:02.920
<v Speaker 4>their weight and their financing behind other far right political

499
00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.319
<v Speaker 4>parties across the West and across Europe. This is not

500
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:09.400
<v Speaker 4>just a sort of program much like eugenics from one

501
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.279
<v Speaker 4>hundred years ago. This is not a program that only

502
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.720
<v Speaker 4>saw its sort of work being done, you know, in

503
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:17.839
<v Speaker 4>one nation, and it was very happy to sort of

504
00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:21.440
<v Speaker 4>let that lie. It was a program that was quite global.

505
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:25.440
<v Speaker 4>Eugenics in it to day, much like eugenics now really

506
00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:29.000
<v Speaker 4>saw its promise as being one of reordering a kind

507
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:33.759
<v Speaker 4>of global order, remaking the global order, and remaking societies,

508
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.000
<v Speaker 4>and especially sort of trying to demonstrate the wrongness of

509
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:44.759
<v Speaker 4>democracy and democratic institutions really, you know, trying to attack

510
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:49.039
<v Speaker 4>democracy at its very foundations, and to demonstrate the rightness

511
00:32:49.079 --> 00:32:54.079
<v Speaker 4>of organizing society around the kinds of racial hierarchies and

512
00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:01.119
<v Speaker 4>stratified societies and segregated societies that eugenicists fundamentally believe was

513
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:05.160
<v Speaker 4>was the correct way, the best way of designing strength

514
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:10.720
<v Speaker 4>and maintaining national superiority and national fitness, and so the

515
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:13.880
<v Speaker 4>continuities you see. I mean to argue that Ugenix was

516
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.960
<v Speaker 4>the first global movement for dratification. It was also the

517
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:21.079
<v Speaker 4>first global movement that I just mentioned for disinformation. It

518
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.799
<v Speaker 4>was quite successful for growing across the West, seeded in

519
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:29.680
<v Speaker 4>UH in the UK, in in England with Francis Falton,

520
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.119
<v Speaker 4>but it was really in the US the kind of

521
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:37.680
<v Speaker 4>choralist to us, with the waves of immigrants that were

522
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:40.880
<v Speaker 4>coming into the East and West coast, that it really

523
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:48.240
<v Speaker 4>saw its earliest forms of of national model and successes

524
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:53.440
<v Speaker 4>take place well before not to Germany. Not to Germany

525
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:55.880
<v Speaker 4>by the nineteen thirties was looking to the US for

526
00:33:55.960 --> 00:34:00.759
<v Speaker 4>all its successes, as its model for an inspiration. But

527
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:08.239
<v Speaker 4>the continuities between contemporary and past eugenics are just uh.

528
00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:10.800
<v Speaker 4>Lets I argue in the book eugenics never really went away,

529
00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:17.960
<v Speaker 4>but techno eugenics draws enormous inspiration. And the continuities are

530
00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:21.719
<v Speaker 4>that we can see are make themselves obvious, not just

531
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:27.360
<v Speaker 4>that they were both movements and both forms of political

532
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:31.239
<v Speaker 4>forms and social political forms that were driven by a

533
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:37.039
<v Speaker 4>radical eliticism, but that also aim to convince publics that

534
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:40.199
<v Speaker 4>this was empirical, uh, that it was important, and the

535
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:43.840
<v Speaker 4>notion of both of these movements or both of these

536
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.679
<v Speaker 4>forms of eugenics as having been they needed to have

537
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.440
<v Speaker 4>a kind of foot in science or make those claims

538
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:54.559
<v Speaker 4>that they would be able to come to prove their

539
00:34:54.679 --> 00:34:59.920
<v Speaker 4>their science of inequality. That they were obsessed with collecting

540
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:05.000
<v Speaker 4>and siphoning data from human populations, and we're convinced that

541
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.800
<v Speaker 4>with enough data they would be able to demonstrate that

542
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:13.480
<v Speaker 4>some populations were inevitably always going to be unfit. Uh

543
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:16.840
<v Speaker 4>and that with the fit more more fitness, that the

544
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:23.360
<v Speaker 4>well born bore more well bornness and more fitness, and

545
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:27.239
<v Speaker 4>uh that especially one could could continue to demonstrate with

546
00:35:27.400 --> 00:35:30.079
<v Speaker 4>enough data, you would be able to prove that the

547
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:34.039
<v Speaker 4>exceptional would always breed more exceptionality, and that again we

548
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:38.000
<v Speaker 4>so called the counterpart part to that, that the unfit

549
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:45.159
<v Speaker 4>would would lead to further and more unfitness. That's all that,

550
00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:48.960
<v Speaker 4>And there was no point because precisely because the well

551
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 4>born were always going to uh breed more of the

552
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:57.239
<v Speaker 4>well born, and the unfit were inevitable going to breed

553
00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:04.119
<v Speaker 4>more in fitness. Pauperism, criminality, alcoholism, prostitution, all of these

554
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:10.679
<v Speaker 4>things were wont to get reproduced over and over again

555
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:13.960
<v Speaker 4>amongst the unfit. The poor bore more of the poor,

556
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:18.639
<v Speaker 4>and it was inevitable, inevitable, it was biologically predetermined from

557
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:22.320
<v Speaker 4>their point of view. And because of that predetermination, there

558
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:25.480
<v Speaker 4>was no point to investing in public institutions. There was

559
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.440
<v Speaker 4>no point to investing in public schools and the sorts

560
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:34.039
<v Speaker 4>of things that democracy and welfare states would lean into,

561
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:41.079
<v Speaker 4>because supporting the unfit was only wasting resources. It's only

562
00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:44.039
<v Speaker 4>going to be throwing away funds that should actually go

563
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:48.000
<v Speaker 4>to the well born. And to shore up your strength

564
00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:50.039
<v Speaker 4>and to enable the well born to be as fit

565
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:53.679
<v Speaker 4>and as enabled as they possibly could be, rather than

566
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:58.320
<v Speaker 4>wasting them irresponsibly on classes and populations that were never

567
00:36:58.360 --> 00:37:03.119
<v Speaker 4>going to amount to anything. So the revial of democratic institutions,

568
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:08.199
<v Speaker 4>we can see that from the first generation of hugenesis.

569
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:11.320
<v Speaker 4>And we can see obviously that the kind of rapidity

570
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:16.280
<v Speaker 4>by which Musk and fellow magaite and not just must,

571
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:18.159
<v Speaker 4>but you could certainly see it in the kind of

572
00:37:18.559 --> 00:37:22.119
<v Speaker 4>rhetoric that even people like Peter Heel and Martin Dresen

573
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:27.360
<v Speaker 4>and right wing advocates from within Silicon Valley. I mean,

574
00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:33.320
<v Speaker 4>their writings on the kind of incompatibility supposedly of democracy

575
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:38.480
<v Speaker 4>and technology go back more than a decade. So these

576
00:37:38.559 --> 00:37:41.360
<v Speaker 4>are not this is not a sudden right wing turn

577
00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:45.679
<v Speaker 4>from within Silicon Valley. This kind of radical eliticism has

578
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:49.239
<v Speaker 4>existed within Silicon Valley, and if anything, was very very

579
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:54.199
<v Speaker 4>happy to finally find a messaging take foot from a

580
00:37:54.320 --> 00:38:00.280
<v Speaker 4>kind of radicalized right political party with mougism, and uh yeah.

581
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:04.719
<v Speaker 4>So you can see any number of different parallels between

582
00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:08.159
<v Speaker 4>the kind of elitement of science from over a century

583
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:12.360
<v Speaker 4>though who use their status display politics and markets and

584
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.519
<v Speaker 4>the continuities that we see with technogugenesis today.

585
00:38:16.039 --> 00:38:19.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, I don't know how closely you follow the

586
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:26.039
<v Speaker 1>whole propaganda sphere for this new political reality that we're

587
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:31.039
<v Speaker 1>in the mega propaganda world, but I will say that

588
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:34.360
<v Speaker 1>I would assume fairly closely with your media background. But me,

589
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:38.719
<v Speaker 1>I would say that I have been following this for

590
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:42.400
<v Speaker 1>a couple of decades now, closely more closely than I

591
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:46.039
<v Speaker 1>would like to admit. Actually, because I've been making podcasts,

592
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:50.480
<v Speaker 1>I've been in alternative media and all this. I've been

593
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.920
<v Speaker 1>in this world where I have seen it over time.

594
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:59.719
<v Speaker 1>There's these different elements from online media that have been

595
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:03.760
<v Speaker 1>used by this cadre and they It's just been fascinating

596
00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:06.719
<v Speaker 1>to me to see the messaging shift over the couple

597
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.599
<v Speaker 1>of decades here. Because, Uh, I'll just throw a name

598
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:12.440
<v Speaker 1>out there. Alex Jones is one of these characters that's

599
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:15.559
<v Speaker 1>used to promote all this. Now, if you go back

600
00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:19.079
<v Speaker 1>a couple of decades, he made this film that he

601
00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:23.800
<v Speaker 1>put out on his website that was supposedly pointing out

602
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:29.119
<v Speaker 1>eugenics and high technology and how the two go together.

603
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:34.800
<v Speaker 1>Fast forward to now you have him. Uh, I mean,

604
00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:38.039
<v Speaker 1>if if you can't see that he's he's working for

605
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:41.360
<v Speaker 1>these people as a propaganda outlet. I don't know what

606
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:44.239
<v Speaker 1>to tell you. Well, I'll just say it's it's fast,

607
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.920
<v Speaker 1>it's it's been fascinating to see that. It's it's been sad.

608
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:52.199
<v Speaker 1>But uh yeah, this far right political movements and the

609
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:56.000
<v Speaker 1>stuff that they spread online is just the most virulent racism.

610
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.840
<v Speaker 1>And it's just what I will say, it has been

611
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:02.400
<v Speaker 1>wild to see it, uh start, you can see it starting,

612
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:04.360
<v Speaker 1>and then you see it picking up, and then the

613
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.320
<v Speaker 1>people that are enamored by this and never admit that

614
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:09.320
<v Speaker 1>that's what it is until it's too lady.

615
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:12.519
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I mean it's becoming that it's

616
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:16.440
<v Speaker 4>very it's not even simly veiled any longer. You can

617
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:19.800
<v Speaker 4>see it quite explicit and much less so. Eugenics is

618
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:22.119
<v Speaker 4>always we should keep in mind that, I think, if anything,

619
00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.079
<v Speaker 4>eugenics never has gone away in the US. There have

620
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:30.280
<v Speaker 4>always been there maintained, you know, eugenics research organizations and

621
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:37.480
<v Speaker 4>foundations that continued to you know, fund eugenics studies, and

622
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:42.920
<v Speaker 4>especially looking around at the kinds of the wanton spending

623
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:46.440
<v Speaker 4>in in public education and the need to sort of

624
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:50.079
<v Speaker 4>promote more of the gifted and the ways that public

625
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:54.800
<v Speaker 4>education was siphoning off resources from the gifted. You know,

626
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:57.840
<v Speaker 4>there are arguments around that we should bring back also

627
00:40:57.840 --> 00:41:01.880
<v Speaker 4>sterilization laws of the unfit, cetera. You know that even

628
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:05.239
<v Speaker 4>continued into the nineteen seventies. So eugenics have never never

629
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:09.480
<v Speaker 4>fully gone away. What we see continuously as an attempt

630
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:14.480
<v Speaker 4>for eugenics to sort of make its way back into

631
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:18.760
<v Speaker 4>the public mainstream and to test the public appetite for

632
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:22.880
<v Speaker 4>eugenics messaging. You can see it exactly nowadays when you

633
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:28.159
<v Speaker 4>see Trump make and must make overtures to the need

634
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:33.840
<v Speaker 4>for more intelligence in Silicon Valley that you know, or

635
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:37.119
<v Speaker 4>the need for more intelligence even in public sectors. When

636
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:42.679
<v Speaker 4>Trump was critiquing the you know, Washington plane crash and

637
00:41:42.760 --> 00:41:46.519
<v Speaker 4>said that we needed more people with high IQs, you know,

638
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:52.159
<v Speaker 4>in working in in aviation and that with more merit. Right,

639
00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.119
<v Speaker 4>that if we just had more people with real talent

640
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.119
<v Speaker 4>and genius. We need more geniuses, literally is what he

641
00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:01.960
<v Speaker 4>said in those and aviation, and that would have prevented

642
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:05.039
<v Speaker 4>the kind of accident that we had seen. Forget that,

643
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:07.920
<v Speaker 4>of course, he's attacking all the forms of regulation that

644
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:12.360
<v Speaker 4>would maintain safety over all of these sectors. But uh,

645
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:18.320
<v Speaker 4>that language of natural talent of geniuses i Q. All

646
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:23.840
<v Speaker 4>of that goes back to exactly eugenic treatisease. Eugenesis were

647
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:26.119
<v Speaker 4>the first in the US to promote i Q tests.

648
00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:30.559
<v Speaker 4>I mean, Balton's publications, earliest publications were exactly titled on

649
00:42:31.199 --> 00:42:34.360
<v Speaker 4>heredity and talent, you know, and genius that way, all

650
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:36.840
<v Speaker 4>of these things were correlated together.

651
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:37.960
<v Speaker 7>Uh.

652
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:42.760
<v Speaker 4>And he's and literally when you when you see you know,

653
00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:47.960
<v Speaker 4>uh must talk about the kind of demise of civilization

654
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:53.199
<v Speaker 4>because Silicon valleyites aren't having more babies. I mean it

655
00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:56.440
<v Speaker 4>is not these are barely these are not veiled.

656
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:01.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, part he is built into cult of personality like, look,

657
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm out here having children all the time, but you're

658
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:07.760
<v Speaker 1>at like thirteen now, and that's great because I'm the

659
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:10.119
<v Speaker 1>world's smartest guy. I'm doing you favor.

660
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:10.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

661
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:14.079
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he's not raising these kids, and he's not right.

662
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:16.719
<v Speaker 4>But as far as he's concerned, right that that actually

663
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:19.760
<v Speaker 4>that follows his program that all of this is just

664
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:23.280
<v Speaker 4>based on genetics. Right from his point of view, genius inevitably,

665
00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:28.519
<v Speaker 4>inevitably leads to more because it's all biologically predetermined. None

666
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:31.880
<v Speaker 4>of this a good parenting being a present and responsible

667
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:34.679
<v Speaker 4>father or having that kind of parental figure in one's

668
00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:39.400
<v Speaker 4>life is irrelevant. Right, So all of this and his

669
00:43:39.480 --> 00:43:41.840
<v Speaker 4>messaging back to Silicon Valley, I mean again, it's all

670
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:45.079
<v Speaker 4>fimly veiled. The fact that he's got you know, literally

671
00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:48.440
<v Speaker 4>nineteen year olds and twenty year olds while working for him,

672
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:53.320
<v Speaker 4>who are who openly on their social media promote eugenic

673
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:56.480
<v Speaker 4>policy and have argued I think for what the twenty

674
00:43:56.480 --> 00:44:00.239
<v Speaker 4>five year old that was fired from his team and

675
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:05.039
<v Speaker 4>uh then Musk after after the Wall Street Journal reported

676
00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:10.039
<v Speaker 4>that just looking at the social media feed of this employee, uh,

677
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:12.320
<v Speaker 4>they were able to see that essentially he had had

678
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:16.360
<v Speaker 4>posted things such as we just need a eugenic immigration policy.

679
00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:20.280
<v Speaker 4>Uh uh, and then was fired over that scandal, although

680
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:23.079
<v Speaker 4>Musk of course came to his offense and that that

681
00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:27.159
<v Speaker 4>should never have happened again sort of trying to align

682
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 4>some version of argument that this is someone who earned

683
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:33.920
<v Speaker 4>their stature in my team because of some version of merit.

684
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:37.079
<v Speaker 4>Forget about whether or not they are they have the

685
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:41.960
<v Speaker 4>character and disposition or fortitude to actually steward with care

686
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:47.440
<v Speaker 4>public information and public data of literally, you know, hundreds

687
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:52.159
<v Speaker 4>of millions of Americans right, no zero record of of course,

688
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:56.639
<v Speaker 4>of actually being able to demonstrate any care and responsibility

689
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:01.719
<v Speaker 4>for publics, let alone b publics, but publics at large.

690
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:05.239
<v Speaker 4>But again, over and over, nonetheless, over and over again,

691
00:45:05.320 --> 00:45:08.800
<v Speaker 4>what you see is them leaning into arguments of merit,

692
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:12.039
<v Speaker 4>that they are deserving, that they are the fittest, and

693
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:15.199
<v Speaker 4>that somehow that should put them into a class of

694
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:17.239
<v Speaker 4>exceptionality where anything goes.

695
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:17.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

696
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:19.719
<v Speaker 4>Uh, and they should be able to do what they

697
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.519
<v Speaker 4>want to do without oversight. This has been their fundamental

698
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:28.159
<v Speaker 4>argument from again dating back to also eugenesis from from

699
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.880
<v Speaker 4>over a century ago, but certainly the continuity that we

700
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:34.960
<v Speaker 4>see nowadays with technologgenesis, that they should be able to

701
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:40.280
<v Speaker 4>that their privilege and their exceptionality should remove any version

702
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:43.239
<v Speaker 4>of democratic oversight from them, that they should be able

703
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:46.760
<v Speaker 4>to be the best versions of themselves, and to push society,

704
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.360
<v Speaker 4>of course, to to presumably it's death version. Arguably what

705
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:53.159
<v Speaker 4>they what they argued will be it's death version by

706
00:45:53.239 --> 00:45:57.960
<v Speaker 4>just letting them, uh, run of luck with and run

707
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.360
<v Speaker 4>of luck with either no oversight on them or just

708
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:01.679
<v Speaker 4>being able to redesign policy.

709
00:46:02.079 --> 00:46:05.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And these are the guys that are putting in

710
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:13.360
<v Speaker 1>place this new artificial intelligence system correct to run everything right.

711
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:14.960
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it should. It's horrifying, yeah, exactly.

712
00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:18.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah. So so so what what do you believe

713
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:20.559
<v Speaker 1>we're going to get if we allow them to continue

714
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:21.320
<v Speaker 1>this project?

715
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:26.119
<v Speaker 4>Oh, I mean we've already seen versions of what you

716
00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:30.079
<v Speaker 4>could do. I mean it's gonna look, it's gonna it

717
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:34.280
<v Speaker 4>will be horrifying. So I'll give you an example. I mean,

718
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:39.039
<v Speaker 4>that's already happened in that real world. And uh so

719
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:41.079
<v Speaker 4>for the longest and you know, you don't have to

720
00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.800
<v Speaker 4>have the most extreme versions of it even for it

721
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:48.400
<v Speaker 4>to do the kind of damage that should be anathema

722
00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:51.719
<v Speaker 4>and that should be out out ageing to all of us. So,

723
00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:56.039
<v Speaker 4>uh for the last you know, many of your users

724
00:46:56.119 --> 00:46:58.159
<v Speaker 4>or your listeners, I'm sure we're from oial with Facebook

725
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.639
<v Speaker 4>as a platform. And no, of course that Facebook is

726
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:04.559
<v Speaker 4>not just sort of the you know, a popular platform

727
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.480
<v Speaker 4>in countries like India and portions of the global South.

728
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:11.880
<v Speaker 4>But in India, uh, Zuckerberg and had had made deals

729
00:47:11.880 --> 00:47:15.920
<v Speaker 4>with the Indian government and they're under Modi shamed. Also,

730
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:20.800
<v Speaker 4>right wing authoritar arguably national has Has is known for

731
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.880
<v Speaker 4>his Hindu nationalist policies and runs a kind of right wing,

732
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:32.559
<v Speaker 4>the authoritarian right wing, arguably authoritarian UH. Certain people would

733
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:36.159
<v Speaker 4>say UH, certainly, certainly not not argued at all that

734
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:40.320
<v Speaker 4>it is nationalist, the Hindu nationalist government and party that

735
00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.320
<v Speaker 4>UH made a deal has made deals with MODI such

736
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:47.400
<v Speaker 4>that the Facebook is essentially the backbone of the Internet

737
00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:50.960
<v Speaker 4>and most peoples in India's means of being able to

738
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:55.079
<v Speaker 4>access the internet. In in India, nonetheless, despite that kind

739
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:59.519
<v Speaker 4>of large stature and privilege, there had been very little

740
00:47:59.719 --> 00:48:04.119
<v Speaker 4>content moderation around disinformation and around conspiracy theories in the

741
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:09.119
<v Speaker 4>same way that we had seen in the US. So

742
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:11.920
<v Speaker 4>although there have been many complaints for the spread of

743
00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:15.519
<v Speaker 4>disinformation leading up to let's say, the twenty twenty elections

744
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:19.159
<v Speaker 4>and in twenty sixteen, et cetera, it was far far

745
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:23.880
<v Speaker 4>worse in the global South. When by twenty nineteen, when

746
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:29.880
<v Speaker 4>the Francis Hougen papers the Facebook papers had been released,

747
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:39.000
<v Speaker 4>it was found that eighty six percent of Facebook's funds

748
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:42.360
<v Speaker 4>on for safety and security, So the funds that it

749
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:47.679
<v Speaker 4>was using to support safety insecurity for users through content

750
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:52.719
<v Speaker 4>moderation was essentially only being invested in the US. And

751
00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:56.159
<v Speaker 4>because of that right that the rest of the world

752
00:48:56.199 --> 00:49:00.400
<v Speaker 4>gets the split the remaining sixteen or fourteen percent right

753
00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:04.679
<v Speaker 4>that the rest of the world then essentially is living

754
00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.800
<v Speaker 4>with almost no content moderation. And what you saw was

755
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:13.000
<v Speaker 4>an explosion of hate speech of disinformation against various minoritized

756
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:17.840
<v Speaker 4>populations in India, especially dull It and Muslim minority populations,

757
00:49:18.679 --> 00:49:22.440
<v Speaker 4>which meant that there were epidemics literally that were even

758
00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:26.480
<v Speaker 4>reported about in the New York Times, of mob violence,

759
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:31.760
<v Speaker 4>of literal lynchings of people who were called or suspected

760
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:34.960
<v Speaker 4>of being a Muslim who was coming into A report

761
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:38.960
<v Speaker 4>would spread on social media, literally on Facebook's platforms. A

762
00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:42.360
<v Speaker 4>report would spread on social media that someone had been spotted.

763
00:49:42.559 --> 00:49:45.119
<v Speaker 4>They were unknown, they were coming into the village to

764
00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:50.239
<v Speaker 4>kidnap Hindu children, to convert them, or to steal wives

765
00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:54.559
<v Speaker 4>and covert them, et cetera. And before you know it,

766
00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:01.360
<v Speaker 4>a mob had formed around the unknown persons and mob

767
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.960
<v Speaker 4>violence would be unleashed. Any number, literally hundreds of these

768
00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.480
<v Speaker 4>incidences were being reported over and over again, where victims

769
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:13.119
<v Speaker 4>were everyone from twelve year old boys to even Google

770
00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:20.639
<v Speaker 4>workers so you know, well to do uh information UH

771
00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:26.400
<v Speaker 4>professionals and knowledge workers and privileged information sectors were victims

772
00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:30.440
<v Speaker 4>of this kind of mob violence. It's pretty horrifying. There

773
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:34.079
<v Speaker 4>are also reports from various scholars from the Global South

774
00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:39.119
<v Speaker 4>that would report also film lynchings, so things would spread

775
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:45.320
<v Speaker 4>via social media as well, and quite violent UH forms

776
00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:50.679
<v Speaker 4>of attack and mutilation of bodies that were being celebrated

777
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:56.159
<v Speaker 4>as defenses of the cond nation. UH and that all

778
00:50:56.199 --> 00:51:00.159
<v Speaker 4>of this, again was being spread, this form of this informationtion,

779
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:03.840
<v Speaker 4>but also celebration and realization of this kind of mob

780
00:51:04.000 --> 00:51:08.239
<v Speaker 4>violence and defense again supposedly of the true heart of

781
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:15.239
<v Speaker 4>the nation against this un uninvited threat was spreading across

782
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:18.880
<v Speaker 4>social media UH and any number of human rights workers

783
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:23.320
<v Speaker 4>and UH and scholars in the Global South were making

784
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:27.599
<v Speaker 4>reports over and over again to UH to Facebook that

785
00:51:27.800 --> 00:51:30.119
<v Speaker 4>they needed to do more to tap down on this

786
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:34.960
<v Speaker 4>spread and glorification of of mod mob violence and spread

787
00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:38.880
<v Speaker 4>of disinformation. That it was entirely predictable what kinds of

788
00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:43.880
<v Speaker 4>tax against minoritized populations would be coming up, That it

789
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.000
<v Speaker 4>shouldn't have been difficult to be able to flag and

790
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:49.440
<v Speaker 4>limit some of that spreading, and yet none of that

791
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:53.599
<v Speaker 4>ended up happening. And so again we have real world

792
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.119
<v Speaker 4>I'll give one other example as well, because there are

793
00:51:56.239 --> 00:52:00.440
<v Speaker 4>UN reports that are literally written about it, the kinds

794
00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:07.320
<v Speaker 4>of nationalists violence that literally tens of thousands of Muslim

795
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.960
<v Speaker 4>minorities in Burma and me and Mar were experiencing the

796
00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:14.800
<v Speaker 4>bur Huina Muslim population that was had been well documented

797
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:20.400
<v Speaker 4>in the twenty ten, twenty ten, twenty sixteens, et cetera. Uh,

798
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:24.599
<v Speaker 4>that a kind of attack by the nationalist government, by

799
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:29.039
<v Speaker 4>a militarized a military and government on this population as well,

800
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:33.320
<v Speaker 4>that was spreading across, that was spread and amplified through

801
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:40.199
<v Speaker 4>social media. And uh and that targeted again the minoritized population.

802
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:45.280
<v Speaker 4>That all of this was being broadcast and stream through

803
00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:46.360
<v Speaker 4>online channels.

804
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:47.079
<v Speaker 7>Uh.

805
00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:50.480
<v Speaker 4>And that there was very little and and that even

806
00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:54.039
<v Speaker 4>human rights workers were victims and drawn into these kinds

807
00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:59.039
<v Speaker 4>of violent attacks. And UH that yes, none of that

808
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:03.559
<v Speaker 4>was despite reports back to the companies, little was really

809
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:06.960
<v Speaker 4>done to to camp down on it. H. And you saw,

810
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.920
<v Speaker 4>of course you and reports being written that really called

811
00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:15.679
<v Speaker 4>out the companies for not taking any responsibility despite literally

812
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:19.760
<v Speaker 4>years and years of and and bodies that that should really,

813
00:53:20.119 --> 00:53:23.880
<v Speaker 4>from their point of view, have been accounted for.

814
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Okay, that's that's horrifying. And as you're describing all

815
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:35.679
<v Speaker 1>of that, I absolutely see the analogous sorts of posts

816
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:39.320
<v Speaker 1>that go on to our social media here and how

817
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:46.039
<v Speaker 1>all it takes is that I mean to think that

818
00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:48.440
<v Speaker 1>it can't happen here is just insane at this point,

819
00:53:48.480 --> 00:53:49.119
<v Speaker 1>is all I'll say.

820
00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:52.239
<v Speaker 4>So, No, absolutely, I mean, we've already seen exactly how

821
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:57.159
<v Speaker 4>polarized and how violent political language has gotten in day

822
00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:59.679
<v Speaker 4>to day life in the US from the social media

823
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:02.599
<v Speaker 4>plous forms those the earliest arguments they were making or

824
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:07.840
<v Speaker 4>essentially essentially a form of those populations. Safety is is

825
00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:12.320
<v Speaker 4>just too expensive for us to be able to, uh write,

826
00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:17.079
<v Speaker 4>that's hitting a hierarchy of who's a profitable public and

827
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:20.119
<v Speaker 4>who's not? Who, where are there where are their profits

828
00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:22.519
<v Speaker 4>in their user in their user basis? And who deserves

829
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:25.679
<v Speaker 4>safety and who doesn't. But now the arguments are even

830
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:29.280
<v Speaker 4>more cynical. People like Elon Musk are quite happy and

831
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:36.440
<v Speaker 4>entirely okay with seeing violence and harm and injury at

832
00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:39.320
<v Speaker 4>scale so long as it's not touching the well born,

833
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:42.239
<v Speaker 4>and from his point of view, any kind of limitation

834
00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:45.880
<v Speaker 4>even safety regulations on AI end up meaning that you

835
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:48.440
<v Speaker 4>have to slow down development, and at the end of

836
00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:52.119
<v Speaker 4>the day, in his cost benefit analysis, the greater safety

837
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:55.599
<v Speaker 4>of the public or of general workers is not worth

838
00:54:56.320 --> 00:54:59.480
<v Speaker 4>the cost that would be to what he sees UH

839
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:03.239
<v Speaker 4>and what felt technougenesis and techno elitey as a sort

840
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:09.119
<v Speaker 4>of larger benefit to especially and really only two parties

841
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:12.639
<v Speaker 4>like himself, the kind of uh, you know, the cost

842
00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:17.800
<v Speaker 4>innovation is not worth UH, it's not worth putting safety regulations,

843
00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:22.639
<v Speaker 4>the lives of of uh of those who will be sacrificed,

844
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:24.320
<v Speaker 4>the safety and the lives of those who will be

845
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:28.960
<v Speaker 4>sacrificed in the name of tech, of tech development and

846
00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:31.599
<v Speaker 4>tech dancement, for him, is entirely worth the calculation.

847
00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:37.519
<v Speaker 1>Yes, now this I've I have to say thank you.

848
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.159
<v Speaker 1>I need to say a chance for coming onto the show.

849
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:46.400
<v Speaker 1>You've gone through so much, it's been great. I've i've

850
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:50.400
<v Speaker 1>i've I've absolutely loved this interview, So thank you for

851
00:55:50.440 --> 00:55:56.119
<v Speaker 1>coming on. First of all, But Predatory Data. That's your book.

852
00:55:57.000 --> 00:55:58.920
<v Speaker 1>Would you like to tell people like where they can

853
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:01.280
<v Speaker 1>find it or anything more about the book itself before

854
00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:01.719
<v Speaker 1>before you?

855
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:02.719
<v Speaker 8>Sure?

856
00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:03.280
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

857
00:56:03.559 --> 00:56:08.320
<v Speaker 4>Yeah. It was published with University of California Press, a

858
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:14.559
<v Speaker 4>wonderful nonprofit press. It's also available open access if you

859
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:18.519
<v Speaker 4>order it also on bookshop dot org. You can support

860
00:56:18.599 --> 00:56:23.639
<v Speaker 4>your local booksellers and local bookshops, and you do not

861
00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:25.719
<v Speaker 4>have to buy it on Amazon. I would not encourage

862
00:56:25.719 --> 00:56:26.199
<v Speaker 4>you to do that.

863
00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:29.159
<v Speaker 1>You know what's funny, Anita, is that I have an

864
00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:31.760
<v Speaker 1>affiliate link with bookshop dot org. I'll put your book

865
00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:35.159
<v Speaker 1>on my recommended reading list. Absolutely great.

866
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:37.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and for anyone you know it's it is open

867
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:41.159
<v Speaker 4>it's available also open access. I mean that was one

868
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:44.920
<v Speaker 4>of the benefits of working with a nonprofit press and

869
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.760
<v Speaker 4>recognizing the value of that. So yeah, more than anything,

870
00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:55.000
<v Speaker 4>it's an educational resource that h yes, you know, in

871
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:59.159
<v Speaker 4>whatever means it's easiest for for folks to access. I

872
00:56:59.159 --> 00:56:59.679
<v Speaker 4>hope they can.

873
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:03.760
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, thank you once again for coming on the show.

874
00:57:03.960 --> 00:57:09.920
<v Speaker 1>You're welcome back anytime. This is great. Yes, thank you, Yeah,

875
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:14.679
<v Speaker 1>thank you. H Okay. So that was my interview with

876
00:57:14.760 --> 00:57:19.039
<v Speaker 1>Anita say Chan once again, the author of Predatory Data.

877
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.039
<v Speaker 1>I will have the link to the book on the

878
00:57:22.039 --> 00:57:25.679
<v Speaker 1>post for this podcast at the Age of Transitions dot com. Also,

879
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:27.920
<v Speaker 1>if you go through my affiliate link to bookshop dot org,

880
00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:30.480
<v Speaker 1>it's going to be on the top of the list

881
00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:33.960
<v Speaker 1>on my little page there where there's books by guests.

882
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:36.760
<v Speaker 1>I already have this book on that list, So if

883
00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:40.679
<v Speaker 1>you buy it from that, Anita will get a book sale,

884
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:43.599
<v Speaker 1>I'll get a small little referral fee, and you'll get

885
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:47.719
<v Speaker 1>a great book. So I would highly recommend that. As

886
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:51.119
<v Speaker 1>I said, I've begun reading the book myself and it's wonderful.

887
00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:55.400
<v Speaker 1>It's a good reminder as I'm saying, that big Tech

888
00:57:56.119 --> 00:58:04.760
<v Speaker 1>does have eugenic fillsophoical roots, but also eugenic ambitions with

889
00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:09.679
<v Speaker 1>what they're doing, and they're meddling into politics and all

890
00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:14.119
<v Speaker 1>of this dominant political scene that we've seen come the

891
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:17.079
<v Speaker 1>prominence and the regime that's in control now that has

892
00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:21.960
<v Speaker 1>been bought and paid for by the big tech oligarchs.

893
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:25.840
<v Speaker 1>They're the ones in control and control. And isn't it

894
00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:33.119
<v Speaker 1>funny that all of the alternative media, formerly fringe right

895
00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:38.079
<v Speaker 1>wing slash libertarian ideas that were floating around online for

896
00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:40.199
<v Speaker 1>so long, that those guys are right in line with

897
00:58:40.239 --> 00:58:44.039
<v Speaker 1>all that stuff that they're coming out openly saying so

898
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:53.000
<v Speaker 1>much now and that it's the same thing. Honestly, I

899
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:56.519
<v Speaker 1>hardly even know where to start with all of this.

900
00:58:56.599 --> 00:58:58.639
<v Speaker 1>There's just so much to get into, and the show

901
00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:02.519
<v Speaker 1>is nearly over now, which is line. But I just

902
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:08.760
<v Speaker 1>hope that listeners show understand what's going on and that

903
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:13.320
<v Speaker 1>we stop taking for granted all of this propaganda that

904
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:16.159
<v Speaker 1>we are inundated with and understand what it actually is.

905
00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:20.159
<v Speaker 1>And eugenics is a big part of it, Racism big

906
00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:24.679
<v Speaker 1>part of it. It's dangerous the situation that we're in now,

907
00:59:25.000 --> 00:59:27.800
<v Speaker 1>and it's horrible that we just can't so many of

908
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:31.639
<v Speaker 1>us just can't snap out of it and see what

909
00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:41.599
<v Speaker 1>we've gotten into. So it's a wild, wild situation we've

910
00:59:41.599 --> 00:59:46.480
<v Speaker 1>gotten into. However, there is hope. I do believe that

911
00:59:46.519 --> 00:59:51.039
<v Speaker 1>we can still educate ourselves. We can still understand what's

912
00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:54.840
<v Speaker 1>going on. We don't have to fall victim anymore. We

913
00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:58.199
<v Speaker 1>can take the power back where we can start thinking

914
00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:03.480
<v Speaker 1>along these lines. So much wild stuff in the news

915
01:00:03.519 --> 01:00:05.719
<v Speaker 1>this week, but we're not going to even cover that.

916
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Don't worry about. Plenty of plenty of time on future

917
01:00:11.880 --> 01:00:15.119
<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Age of Transitions to deal with what

918
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:18.199
<v Speaker 1>we can And I'm once again thank you to Anita

919
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:23.000
<v Speaker 1>stay Chan for coming on the show. I also look

920
01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:25.119
<v Speaker 1>for other good guests in the future on the Age

921
01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:29.199
<v Speaker 1>of Transition. So I'm having some success getting good guests,

922
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:32.760
<v Speaker 1>so look for that. If you haven't listened to the

923
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:37.079
<v Speaker 1>Age of Transitions before. Please do subscribe to the podcast

924
01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:42.239
<v Speaker 1>Go Back We're on. We're getting close to five hundred

925
01:00:42.239 --> 01:00:45.119
<v Speaker 1>episodes now, so plenty of old material to go back into.

926
01:00:45.679 --> 01:00:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Plus there's lots of stuff coming up. We're going to

927
01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:54.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna do what I can to stay up on things,

928
01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:58.519
<v Speaker 1>but also stay grounded in realizing that this isn't just

929
01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:02.119
<v Speaker 1>something that appeared out of no where. So we're going

930
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:06.239
<v Speaker 1>to do all of that and so much more Friday

931
01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:08.559
<v Speaker 1>Nights Onto Chili dot Com once again, The Age of

932
01:01:08.639 --> 01:01:14.239
<v Speaker 1>Transitions dot Com is my website. My name is Aaron Franz.

933
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:18.039
<v Speaker 1>As always, I will leave you by saying secret secon.

934
01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:42.719
<v Speaker 9>In Denial as secret Wars with air strikes, sights tanks

935
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:47.480
<v Speaker 9>by Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US

936
01:01:47.480 --> 01:01:51.559
<v Speaker 9>covert operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book

937
01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:55.000
<v Speaker 9>In Denial rips the cover off many of them. Using

938
01:01:55.079 --> 01:01:55.719
<v Speaker 9>new files.

939
01:01:55.719 --> 01:01:58.119
<v Speaker 3>It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no

940
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:01.159
<v Speaker 3>one has ever written about before. It shows why it

941
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:04.159
<v Speaker 3>really failed and why the United States did not earn

942
01:02:04.199 --> 01:02:07.199
<v Speaker 3>from it. It also shows why other countries today are

943
01:02:07.239 --> 01:02:10.880
<v Speaker 3>doing secret operations with more success. This is the book

944
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:14.360
<v Speaker 3>that puts what some want to deny into the light.

945
01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:19.880
<v Speaker 3>In Denial Secret Wars with air strikes and tanks Larry Hancock.

946
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:24.760
<v Speaker 3>For more information, go to Larry hyphen Handcock dot com.

947
01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:27.880
<v Speaker 3>Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon dot

948
01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:30.079
<v Speaker 3>com in digital or physical force.

949
01:02:41.880 --> 01:02:44.280
<v Speaker 8>Hey we are, Hey, we are hey?

950
01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:45.039
<v Speaker 10>Yeah?

951
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:46.199
<v Speaker 1>Hey do we are?

952
01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:46.639
<v Speaker 10>Hey?

953
01:02:46.920 --> 01:04:02.000
<v Speaker 8>Do we hey? Hey?

954
01:03:23.639 --> 01:04:49.519
<v Speaker 10>You need to name name Ned, don't do.

955
01:04:52.679 --> 01:04:58.519
<v Speaker 11>To go to.

956
01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:43.280
<v Speaker 5>The bad pens pens pens Penner senior sen teniers, pious

957
01:05:43.599 --> 01:07:07.199
<v Speaker 5>tenders of pious spinous peris. Uh well, well, uh.

958
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:31.239
<v Speaker 1>What about the hard time?

959
01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:33.159
<v Speaker 8>Said the ship man who be food?

960
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:36.720
<v Speaker 12>What about a back could bad the bunny?

961
01:09:36.760 --> 01:09:39.159
<v Speaker 13>I said, you know, I guess I was.

962
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:40.439
<v Speaker 11>A conquest tess.

963
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:43.439
<v Speaker 10>I spoke you later to Master Bart talking about the.

964
01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:46.159
<v Speaker 12>Post of my kitchen, posting my soul, most of my

965
01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:53.880
<v Speaker 12>comfort of posting my god what to pi?

966
01:09:56.640 --> 01:09:57.279
<v Speaker 8>So so.

967
01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:13.840
<v Speaker 12>With all jobs, Gowl, it sound like cool of Foca

968
01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:19.199
<v Speaker 12>Sky still be.

969
01:10:22.920 --> 01:11:00.319
<v Speaker 13>Not your black star, h.

970
01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:25.359
<v Speaker 12>The cold broom to the black side of black Cloud.

971
01:11:26.640 --> 01:11:29.439
<v Speaker 12>Let me tell you about holiday. I'm not to say

972
01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:32.640
<v Speaker 12>what Sun, don't Sun, She's gonna tat yell. I just

973
01:11:32.800 --> 01:11:35.479
<v Speaker 12>take yall what I'm gonna bake yo?

974
01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:36.640
<v Speaker 13>She makes sob and.

975
01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:39.359
<v Speaker 12>Smack you got mother, but don't mean nothing. Don't wait

976
01:11:39.439 --> 01:12:19.920
<v Speaker 12>with the body to fight said no, I love you, okay, No, seein.

977
01:12:15.439 --> 01:13:36.640
<v Speaker 7>Some dun Dunn.

978
01:13:36.720 --> 01:13:38.199
<v Speaker 5>Dunn and.

979
01:13:42.279 --> 01:13:51.439
<v Speaker 7>Dun dunn dundum and then.

980
01:14:50.079 --> 01:15:05.159
<v Speaker 11>B go ahead call it the truth about the JFA assassination.

981
01:15:05.439 --> 01:15:07.039
<v Speaker 2>Right, Well, what do you want to know Tony.

982
01:15:06.800 --> 01:15:10.359
<v Speaker 11>Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew Ruby and Barry

983
01:15:10.520 --> 01:15:11.439
<v Speaker 11>handswer weapons.

984
01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Really I imagine I could claim I have four wheels.

985
01:15:13.840 --> 01:15:14.920
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't make me a wagon.

986
01:15:15.039 --> 01:15:17.880
<v Speaker 11>But okay, Oswald was on the building and trying to

987
01:15:17.880 --> 01:15:20.199
<v Speaker 11>prevent the murder of John Kennedy. Come on now has

988
01:15:20.239 --> 01:15:23.319
<v Speaker 11>a real effort on the DFA assassination. Bootlaim.

989
01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:27.520
<v Speaker 2>Go to Amazon dot com, enter Judith Baker in her

990
01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:30.399
<v Speaker 2>own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy

991
01:15:30.520 --> 01:15:33.880
<v Speaker 2>of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words

992
01:15:34.039 --> 01:15:36.840
<v Speaker 2>and the known evidence in the case to get at

993
01:15:37.000 --> 01:15:38.960
<v Speaker 2>well a different perspective.

994
01:15:39.079 --> 01:15:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Let's say you can.

995
01:15:39.920 --> 01:15:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Get Judith Ary Baker in her own words from the

996
01:15:43.000 --> 01:15:46.600
<v Speaker 2>author himself, signed if you request it by contacting doctor

997
01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Brown at k I as JFK at aol dot com.

998
01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:54.239
<v Speaker 2>It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many,

999
01:15:54.359 --> 01:15:58.119
<v Speaker 2>many fantastic claims. Judith very Baker, in her own.

1000
01:15:58.039 --> 01:16:01.399
<v Speaker 5>Words, thank you for all the great inform the dot

1001
01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:02.640
<v Speaker 5>Com Radio.

1002
01:16:03.720 --> 01:16:16.159
<v Speaker 1>Chili dot Com revelation through conversation. Today on the show,

1003
01:16:16.399 --> 01:16:17.880
<v Speaker 1>I welcome a special guest.

1004
01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:22.039
<v Speaker 14>The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national

1005
01:16:22.119 --> 01:16:25.079
<v Speaker 14>transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in

1006
01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:28.560
<v Speaker 14>the context of the Times and reveals never before published

1007
01:16:28.600 --> 01:16:32.239
<v Speaker 14>information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not

1008
01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:34.960
<v Speaker 14>have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred

1009
01:16:35.039 --> 01:16:38.359
<v Speaker 14>years ago. His assassination took place in the context of

1010
01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:41.359
<v Speaker 14>the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.

1011
01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:45.000
<v Speaker 14>Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.

1012
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:48.399
<v Speaker 14>In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower.

1013
01:16:48.680 --> 01:16:52.119
<v Speaker 14>Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,

1014
01:16:52.319 --> 01:16:54.560
<v Speaker 14>but knew that there were short range missiles on the

1015
01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:57.760
<v Speaker 14>island arn't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy

1016
01:16:57.880 --> 01:17:00.960
<v Speaker 14>because they were on mobile launchers. Verren could have led

1017
01:17:01.000 --> 01:17:03.840
<v Speaker 14>to a Third World War, and they wanted to go

1018
01:17:03.960 --> 01:17:07.840
<v Speaker 14>to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson, reveals

1019
01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:10.680
<v Speaker 14>why and will show you what President Kennedy was up against.

1020
01:17:10.920 --> 01:17:13.600
<v Speaker 14>For more information, the Warstate dot com