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That's Chumbuck 42 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:00.000 Casino dot com. 43 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:03.799 Bill Prettimary by Lost Arm Conditions eighteen plus. 44 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:16.080 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 45 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 46 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:25.360 written about them, Gasey, Bundy Dahmer, The Night Stalker BTK. 47 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:30.080 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 48 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.240 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 49 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.759 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 50 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:53.280 Good Evening, The True American tells the story of Razudin Buyin, 51 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:56.639 the Bangladesh Air Force officer who dreams of immigrating to 52 00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:01.599 America and working in technology. After nine to eleven, an 53 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:06.000 avowed American terrorist named Mark Stroman, seeking revenge, walks into 54 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.800 the Dallas Mini mart where Bihuen has found temporary work 55 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.000 and shoots him, maiming him and nearly killing him. Two 56 00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:16.000 other victims at other gas stations aren't so lucky, dying 57 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:19.439 at once. The True American traces the making of these 58 00:03:19.479 --> 00:03:23.960 two men, Stroman and Behuian, and of their faithful encounter. 59 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:27.800 It follows them as they rebuild shattered lives, one striving 60 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.159 on death row to become a better man, the other 61 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.719 to heal and pull himself up from the lowest rung 62 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:38.639 on the latter of an unfamiliar country. Ten years after 63 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:42.879 the shooting, an Islamic pilgrimage seedes in Behuan. A strange 64 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:45.240 idea If he is ever to be whole, he must 65 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:48.879 re enter Stroman's life. He longs to confront Stroman and 66 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:51.479 speak to him face to face about the attack that 67 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:56.680 change their lives. Bihuen publicly forgives Stroman in the name 68 00:03:56.719 --> 00:03:59.639 of his religion and its notion of mercy. Then he 69 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.599 wages is a legal and public relations campaign against the 70 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:05.400 State of Texas and Governor Rick Perry to have his 71 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.840 attack spared. From the death penalty, ranging from Texas juvenile 72 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:12.639 justice system to the swirling crowd of pilgrims at the 73 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:15.639 haj in Mecca, from a biker bar to an immigrant 74 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:19.639 mosque in Dallas, from young military cadets in Bangladesh to 75 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:23.160 elite paratroopers in Israel. From a wealthy household of chicken 76 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.720 importers in Karachi, Pakistan, to the sober residences of Brownwood, Texas. 77 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:31.720 The True American is a rich, colorful, profoundly moving exploration 78 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:36.079 of the American dream in its many dimensions. Ultimately, it 79 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:38.839 tells a story about our love hate relationship with immigrants, 80 00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:42.439 about the encounter of Islam and the West, about how 81 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:46.519 or whether we choose what we become. The focus of 82 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.800 this program this evening is the True American with my 83 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:55.920 special guest journalist and author anand girid Hadis. Welcome to 84 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:58.160 the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 85 00:04:59.199 --> 00:04:59.959 Thank you for having me. 86 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:05.839 And I apologized for mis pronouncing your name, so if 87 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:09.480 you could just pronounce your last name for us correctly. 88 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:12.160 The name's annand Gerdardas. 89 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:18.920 Okay, thank you very much. Now, first off, it's a 90 00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:25.759 question I asked many authors, what compelled you? Why did 91 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:28.279 you choose to write this story? What was it about 92 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:31.319 this story? How did you come without giving too much 93 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:33.000 of the story away at all? How did you come 94 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:35.199 to write The True American? 95 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:43.959 You know, I spent some years actually thinking about the 96 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.000 question that I think many of us were thinking about 97 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:52.680 in the kind of in recent past, about the American dream. 98 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:57.480 And there was a lot of talk as the kind 99 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:01.199 of great recession sunk its its teeth into the country, 100 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:04.279 a lot of talk about this American dream and who 101 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:07.199 it was still working for and who had stopped working for, 102 00:06:07.360 --> 00:06:10.079 and whether the whole thing was kind of more of 103 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:13.920 a nightmare for many people than kind of a dream anymore. 104 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:17.519 And so those questions were kind of swirling in my 105 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:21.399 head for a while, and I wanted to find a 106 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.199 way into those questions, not you know, to write a 107 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:29.480 kind of high level book with you know, vague substance 108 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.720 about the American dream of large, but really to sink 109 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:37.680 into a couple of characters and explore it from the ground. 110 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:41.160 And I came upon this story once in the newspaper 111 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:48.120 about a Ladieshi immigrant to the United States fighting to 112 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:51.720 save the life of a white supremacist who had tried 113 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:54.680 to kill him, and trying to convince the state of 114 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:58.439 Texas not to execute this man and to forgive him 115 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.480 in the name of Islam. And it was a kind 116 00:07:01.480 --> 00:07:05.399 of surreal story at first, and a little bit of 117 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.079 research revealed that it really was that story that I'd 118 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:12.319 been looking for, a story about the America that still 119 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.160 works and the America that stopped working a long time ago, 120 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.600 And that came into a kind of bitter collision in 121 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:23.879 this story of a clash between an immigrant for whom 122 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:28.600 America still actually is a thriving country and a native 123 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:32.000 born American who belonged to an America that stopped thriving 124 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:33.600 a long time ago. 125 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.920 Now there's an incredible amount of empathy and of course understanding, 126 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.199 and you invite your audience to do the same. Maybe 127 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.560 you could give us a little bit of your background 128 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:48.920 and your religious beliefs if that was a factor in 129 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.560 you at at least identifying with the victim, and of 130 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:54.120 course you had to identify with the perpetrator as well. 131 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.279 But please give us a little bit of your background 132 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.959 to see if there's any way that you came into 133 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.279 this identifying with the victim. 134 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:11.920 No, I have no religious connection with the victim or 135 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:15.360 with really anybody. I don't really have any religious beliefs 136 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:20.639 in general. So this story really stuck with me because 137 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:25.439 it was a story about a country that you know, 138 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.920 my my parents came to this country from India, and 139 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:35.320 they were able to leave behind one place, one set 140 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:39.120 of understandings, family, and able to come here as so 141 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:44.559 many have, and find their own little corner of glory, 142 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.720 and the idea that that that is something that continues 143 00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:53.360 to happen, that continues to renew the country, but that 144 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:58.120 from time to time it is threatened by the backlash 145 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.279 that that difference can can create. 146 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:08.080 Now and again, if I mispronounced the name, please correct me. 147 00:09:08.679 --> 00:09:14.519 On Rizudin tell us about his life. It's an incredible story. 148 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:17.200 Of course, we alluded to it, and we spoke of 149 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:20.720 it in the book Synopsis of the Description of the show. 150 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:25.279 Description itself tell us about his early life, and tell 151 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:29.519 about his aspirations and his early thoughts and his impressions, 152 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:32.840 and why he chose to come to America and what 153 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.919 he thought about the journey itself in terms of its importance. 154 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:43.559 You know, he was like so many of the people 155 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:47.559 who have emigrated to America over the years and decades 156 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:52.960 and centuries, and he was someone who, you know, was 157 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:57.840 fleeing a perfectly respectable, perfectly decent existence. Many people who 158 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:02.559 ended up in America were fleeing truly terrible conditions or circumstances. 159 00:10:02.759 --> 00:10:04.879 But a lot of people who ended up in America were, 160 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:10.039 you fleeing fine circumstances, but had this feeling that there 161 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.360 was something more for them in life. And where a 162 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:17.960 country settled over the generations by this kind of strange 163 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:21.399 birds in a way, who always had this feeling that 164 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:24.840 there was something more for them, and he was one 165 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.000 of them. He grew up in an upper middle class 166 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:32.840 family in Taka in Bangladesh. He was in military boarding 167 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:36.559 school and then the Air Force Academy of his country. 168 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:40.879 Commissioned as an Air Force officer in his country, learned 169 00:10:40.879 --> 00:10:46.440 to fly fighter jets, became interested in it, and started 170 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.879 training himself in that, and then just had this sense 171 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.480 that all of that, that perfectly good life wouldn't be 172 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:58.120 enough for him, and he wanted more, and more for 173 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:03.120 him was America. He came to New York after winning 174 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:07.279 a visa on his eighth attempt. Came to New York, 175 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:10.039 worked in a gas station, a little bit of French restaurant, 176 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:13.879 a little bit of Xerox shop, a little bit, and 177 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.840 one day got a phone call from a former schoolmate 178 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:21.200 of his from Bangladesh who now lived in Texas. And 179 00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:22.919 the guy said, why don't you come visit me and 180 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.080 my brother and I own a bunch of gas stations 181 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.039 and you can come work in one of these stations 182 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.480 and it'll be great and you might own your own 183 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.559 station before long. And so he went to go visit 184 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:35.960 his friend in Texas, and in Texas he found that 185 00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:41.120 the bathrooms were as big as the bedrooms in New York, 186 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:45.360 and he thought this is quite nice. So he moved, 187 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.799 and he thought, maybe he's going to own a business. 188 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:51.440 Maybe he can work and save and take it classes 189 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:53.240 and get married by the end of the year in 190 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.759 two thousand and one, and then September eleventh came along, 191 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:59.960 and like so many lives in this country, his life 192 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:01.720 was irradicably changed. 193 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:09.000 What was his impressions of America before he came and afterwards. 194 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:14.200 I'm very interesting to hear in the book his his ideals, 195 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.159 what he really thought he would encounter in America, and 196 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.960 then to hear shortly after, in a short period of time, 197 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:25.559 after being at this Minnie Martin in Texas, tell us 198 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:29.039 how what was the difference between his fantasy and the 199 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:30.440 reality that he encountered. 200 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.519 You know, he had always thought America to be a 201 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:41.200 kind of rich, bountiful problem for his own. You know, 202 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:45.039 he saw these movies on TV, as people do around 203 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:50.279 the world. He had grown up with the TV shows. 204 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.320 You know, he knew the culture secondhand, the way so 205 00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:57.519 much of the world does, and it just seemed this 206 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:02.039 kind of airy, perfect society where anything was possible if 207 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:07.279 you worked hard and did right. And he arrives and 208 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.519 he is in Dallas and kind of eastern Dallas, working 209 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.480 at this gas station, and he realizes what a profoundly 210 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:21.759 lonely and isolated country this can be in those parts 211 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.840 of the country that aren't working very well. He was 212 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:29.039 not in you know, the thriving precincts of New York 213 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:32.759 City or la or Chicago or San Francisco. He was 214 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:37.840 in kind of a bad neighborhood in Dallas. And what 215 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.840 struck him above all it was a poor neighborhood, and 216 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:45.200 the poverty struck him because he thought America to be 217 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:49.720 this kind of endlessly rich country. But what really struck 218 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:53.200 him above all was the loneliness of these poor people 219 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:58.440 around him, and the fact that in addition to not 220 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:01.919 having money, they seem to also not really have other people. 221 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:05.679 They kind of ate alone in their restaurants, and they 222 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:07.879 came to this gas station alone, and they always just 223 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:12.080 seemed alone, alone, alone, And that really struck him because 224 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:15.639 where he came from, if you were poor, you at 225 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.440 least still had people. And he had come to a 226 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.559 country where, in fact, the poorer you are, the less 227 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:25.799 access to community and family you often have. 228 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:33.360 Right, what was his impression or what did he see 229 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.200 in terms of the religiosity of the people around him 230 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.600 in the community, and also the sense of family, the 231 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:44.639 difference in terms of the family model from where he 232 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:46.480 had come from and how he was raised and what 233 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:49.159 he was, at least thinking he was seeing. 234 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:56.159 He was struck by the almost total absence of family 235 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:00.200 as a serious force. I mean, he was struck by 236 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:02.360 the fact that there was a Mother's Day and it 237 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:04.399 was only once a year, where he thought kind of 238 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.519 every day was Mother's Day and called his mom once 239 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:08.559 a day and asked what he could do to serve her. 240 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.039 He was struck by the fact that kind of family 241 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:15.639 got together at Thanksgiving and Christmas once or twice a year, 242 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:20.840 whereas to his mind, you know, family was kind of 243 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:23.200 like the air you breathe. But of course, he too 244 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:27.519 is a complicated figure here. He didn't ruse to stay 245 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.360 with his family. He chose to leave and come to 246 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:35.320 America and live on his own. But he was very 247 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:41.879 struck by how people lacked for other people in this country, 248 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:43.840 particular level of family. 249 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:43.600 And. 250 00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:49.120 That that lack was as bad, if not worse, than 251 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:52.480 the lack of resources that was kind of the stuff 252 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:53.159 of poverty. 253 00:15:55.879 --> 00:16:01.080 What was his experience in terms of acceptance of his 254 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:06.960 race prior to nine to eleven. 255 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:10.799 You know, I don't think it was. I don't think 256 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:14.120 it was an issue, you know, I think it was 257 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.759 until the events unleast by September eleventh, I think he 258 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:24.399 was actually welcomed, accepted, trying to figure out how to 259 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.039 you know, studying a course to get a degree, move ahead. 260 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.759 But things were America was working for him. 261 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:39.879 He was not naive. I mean, you paint this picture 262 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:42.120 of him being quite naive, and there's a couple examples 263 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.600 how naive this guy is. He's got a gun waved 264 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:46.480 in his face and he thinks the guy's trying to 265 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.720 sell him the gun. So it's very comedic. But in 266 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:55.320 terms of his what sustained him in terms of I'm 267 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.759 talking about how religious was he and what was this 268 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.480 sort of his idea of why he could sustain himself 269 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.679 in this sort of lonely environment without his family which 270 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:07.720 he was accustomed to. What really sustained him in terms 271 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:12.359 of that being able to work at this mini mart 272 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.799 in Dallas, Texas, in a bad neighborhood. 273 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.279 I think, like so many immigrants, he understood that this 274 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.359 was not his total reality, that he was doing this 275 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.480 as part of a plan, that the plan was to 276 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:32.079 work hard and toil and push through the stint at 277 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.319 the mini marty or whatever else he had to do, 278 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.519 and then to transcend it, and that he would He 279 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.960 could see this future that was almost more vivid to 280 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:45.000 him than his own present. And he could see that 281 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:47.960 the gas station would lead to the wedding that winter, 282 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:53.359 which would lead to doing computer courses, and the computer 283 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:55.519 courses would lead to getting this job and that job. 284 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:59.000 And he could see the climb. And he understood, as 285 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.200 so many immigrants over the years, that to rise in America, 286 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.079 you must sometimes first fall. He was a he was 287 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.480 a big man where he came from, but he understood 288 00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:12.119 that he had to to work in this gas station, 289 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:16.759 toil or terrible hours, sleep not enough, but he was 290 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:21.359 confident that it would it would pay off for him. 291 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:24.319 How important was his religion to him at that time, 292 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:28.319 during that period of time, and how devoted I think 293 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.720 he he. 294 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:33.880 He is a very religious person, always has been raised 295 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:40.039 in a very religious environment, and you know, generally praise 296 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.680 five times a day, or sometimes a little bit less 297 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:48.839 if if it's a particularly stressful day. But but his 298 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:54.000 religion in some ways is is kind of undergirding his 299 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:58.119 his support, this kind of support beam of his life. 300 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:03.799 And he was very deeply motivated by the notion of 301 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:10.119 the prophet Muhammad, in particular who was a shepherd, and 302 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.680 the fact that he was a shepherd, which was I 303 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:15.559 guess the kind of you know, mini marked clerk of 304 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:20.000 that era. The fact that he was a shepherd didn't 305 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.559 prevent him from being a historical figure of enormous consequence. 306 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.920 And so in some ways Race told himself, if if 307 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:30.440 Prophet Mohammad could be a shepherd and still have such 308 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:35.119 a great and important destiny, surely I can work in this, 309 00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:38.720 in this mini mart and and it still leads to 310 00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:40.480 some life of great significance. 311 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:46.000 So that being said, it really was a culture shock 312 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:51.559 for him. America was not really what he had envisioned. 313 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.920 I think it was, and it wasn't, I mean, you 314 00:19:54.960 --> 00:20:00.519 know it. He saw this isolation of the part of others. 315 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:06.839 He saw this fragmentation and lack of family, etc. But 316 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.319 he came for a reason and that reason was valid, 317 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.440 which was he felt where he came from there was 318 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.799 a limited opportunity for people to kind of reimagine their lives. 319 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.559 You were kind of construct you know, constricted by the 320 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.680 family you came from, the class you came from, what 321 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:29.720 kind of professions people did. It was a relatively stagnant society, 322 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.440 and here he now found himself in a society that 323 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.440 had a great amount of personal freedom. And it's not 324 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.519 just the freedom of the Bill of Rights, it's the 325 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:44.039 freedom to kind of reimagine yourself and decide what kind 326 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.480 of life you want to build. And he felt very 327 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:49.759 clearly that this place had that in a way that 328 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:54.200 the place he came from didn't. And I think he 329 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:58.839 also felt that the dark side of that freedom to 330 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.480 become whatever you wanted to do be was this isolation 331 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.960 that they were actually two sides of the same coin. 332 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:10.559 So it's very upbeat and optimistic overall. Now let's segue 333 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:14.200 into a completely different character, and the other, of course, 334 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:22.480 featured character in this tragic story, Mark Stroman. Tell us 335 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:27.359 about his background, and how tell us about his background? 336 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:28.000 Please? 337 00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:34.400 You know, Mark Stroman grows out of a white working 338 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:38.680 class that you know, in various books and studies we 339 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:43.000 are told is hurting has not done well over the 340 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.920 last generation or so and has felt the kind of 341 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:51.039 stagnation of the country and fragmentation of the society most acutely. 342 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:57.039 And he's a kind of product of that social world 343 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.799 you see kind of over the last three generations, and 344 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.119 Mark Stroman's family, each generation has done a little bit 345 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:07.319 worse than generation before, this kind of reversal of the 346 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:12.720 great American you know, phenomenon of every generation doing better 347 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.680 than the one that came before. Mark Stroman grows out 348 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:19.319 of that world, but also has a lot of his 349 00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:24.880 own afflictions. There's terrible nightmares and dreams going well beyond 350 00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:29.039 a normal child's dreams. When he's very young, starts to 351 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:32.480 escalate into kind of a habit of minor brushes with 352 00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:36.400 the law, which kind of escalates into medium brushes with 353 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:38.880 the law, which kind of escalates into serious brushes with 354 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:44.920 the law. Boys' homes, juvenile detention, parole, drugs start to 355 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.480 play a role in his life. During his third attempt 356 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:53.440 at eighth grade, he impregnates a woman, gets married to 357 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:58.680 her the next year. Is a product of a kind 358 00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:04.079 of chaotic life that used to be used to be 359 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.480 a kind of fringe existence in America, but in many 360 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.279 ways has become a default existence for a lot of 361 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:17.440 people in a kind of vast, hurting under nation. And 362 00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:22.440 by the time nine to eleven came about, Mark Stroman 363 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:25.559 was a guy who'd been in and out of prison, 364 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.559 in and out of drugs, had a mess problem. By 365 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:37.680 all accounts, and was in some ways devoid of a 366 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:41.960 lot of a sense of purpose and seemed to find 367 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.519 in nine to eleven a kind of answer to what 368 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.880 his life was supposed to be about that had maybe 369 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:50.039 alluded him before. 370 00:23:53.559 --> 00:24:00.000 Now, how organized is he and he's in a biker enthusiast, 371 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.319 he's a motorcycle enthusiast, he's a white supremacist, or at 372 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.599 least he has these ideas. He's open to these ideas. 373 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:08.759 But how serious is he? Does he join some organization? 374 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:15.680 How serious is he about this new anger in his life? 375 00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:19.279 You know, I spoke to some of the bikers who 376 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:22.079 he claimed to run with, and they said, oh, well, 377 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:24.079 he didn't really run with us. He came to some 378 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:27.640 of our parties and tried to pledge our organization, but 379 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.119 we didn't really let him in. And you know, his 380 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.720 sister told me Mark called himself a biker, but he 381 00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:36.359 never even owned a bike. So it's not even clear 382 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.480 whether he joined anything formal. But I think, you know, 383 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:46.680 he was certainly part of a large and diffuse and 384 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:53.319 diverse population of you know, angry white guys in this 385 00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:57.559 country who have a feeling that minorities and immigrants and 386 00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:04.359 women are rising up and kind of shafting guys like them. 387 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:07.119 And he felt that acutely, and he had a lot 388 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:11.880 of friends who felt that acutely. And look turn on 389 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.279 the TV and there are a lot of people who 390 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:19.799 feel that acutely. And it's also worth noting that ninety 391 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:21.839 nine percent of people who feel that way don't go 392 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:25.599 commit crimes on the basis of it. But he was 393 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:28.839 further motivated in a way that most folks who just 394 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:31.480 feel aggrieved in that way aren't. And when nine to 395 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.000 eleven came around, he said there were other people doing 396 00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:39.400 similar things kind of sort of in tandem in Dallas, 397 00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:44.000 and certainly there were a bunch of hate crimes around 398 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:46.960 the country, but in many ways he was acting alone. 399 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:51.559 And he went up to three gas stations alone and 400 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:55.079 shot the clerk in each of these three gas stations 401 00:25:55.079 --> 00:26:00.680