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Speaker 1: Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is

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not intended for all audiences.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: I remember her saying that she has a little boy,

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and she just kept saying Zion, but they didn't let

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her up.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to episode three hundred and thirty two of Sword

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and the Scale Show that reveals that the worst monsters

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are real. The final episode of this season was written

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and produced by Elena Thomas, one of our senior producers.

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As this year comes to a close, you'd like to

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say thank you to our retire staff, including producers Evan Siegelman,

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Valerie Vernon, Michael Stabile, Mish Barbara Way. Also our engineers

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Rob Ravelli and John McMichael Gerdy, who works our customer service.

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Whenever you have a problem with your app, but you

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can download By the Way right now in the Google

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Play Store or the Apple App Store. I know we've

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been losing a few of you the last year or so,

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and we'll try to get you back so a guy

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can't even have a multiple breakdown. In early August of

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the year two thousand, just before the new school year

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was about to begin, the heat sat heavy over Mayfield, Kentucky,

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It was still early in the morning, and everything was

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quiet and still. The only sounds were the occasional bird

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chirping on the rooftop of Mayfield Middle School and the

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floor waxing machines humming inside the building. Out behind the school,

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a teacher spotted an unusual dark shape in the grass.

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Speaker 4: I talked an environmental science class, and this was a

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memorial to a teacher that had died at our school.

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And we always kept fresh flowers and kept it playing.

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We did and stuff. I that I went out the door,

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and I just I still had my hand on the door.

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I remember, because if I had closed it, it would

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have locked. And I saw this sandal lane right by

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the the door. There's a little concrete path there, and

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I saw the sandal laying there, and I just thought,

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you know, I wonder what that sandal's doing there. And

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when I looked over to the left is when I

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saw the body.

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Speaker 1: It was hard to tell it was a human body,

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though the corpse was burned to a crisp.

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Speaker 4: It just took me a few seconds to try to

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figure out, you know, that it was a body.

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Speaker 5: And I.

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Speaker 4: Just I was still holding on through the door, and

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I just turned around, you know, I said to myself,

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I believe that's a body. And I went back in

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the building to find mister Almond, my principal, to tell him,

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and I told him, I said, mister Almond, I think

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there's a dead body out back, and he immediately just started,

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you know, running down the hall and we went back

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out there, and sure enough.

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Speaker 1: The next day, Argus second officials used dental records to

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make an identification. The charred woman was confirmed to be

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eighteen year old Jessica Curran. The autopsy offered few answers.

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It looked like she'd been badly beaten in the head

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and face, but a segment of a black braided leather

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belt found beside her body is what took center stage.

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Based on that, the medical examiner determined that she must

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have been strangled because the top half of her body

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was so badly burned. The usual indicators of strangulation weren't there,

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but the belt was enough just the same. There weren't

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any physical signs of sexual assault, but detectives had found

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Jessica's ripped underwear near her body, so the assumption was

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made over By the glass doors of the school, they

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found a clump of Jessica's hair and some suspicious smudging

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near the door handle. Jessica hadn't gone down without a fight.

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Here are a couple of detectives from the Mayfield Police Department.

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Speaker 6: It's obvious even that part. You can tell that they're

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saying the sponges could have been from anything. But I mean,

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you look like hands had been you know, like this

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smudged over there. So with the clump of hair there,

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it certainly appeared to have been some type of struggle,

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perhaps somebody trying to get in or the door open.

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Speaker 7: Uh you figure.

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Speaker 5: What that kind of violence.

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Speaker 6: I mean, the big smashed back her head, her nose

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is driven up into I mean, this part is driven.

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Speaker 5: Up into the essentially, I mean, she shit pretty hard.

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She she was tagged hard. They're painful, had to be.

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So you figured blood spattering somewhere, so it probably did.

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Speaker 6: But with all the rain it washed its way and

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then and then they found later that there was still

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on flood there and it drained there, So most of

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it happened pretty close to there. And definitely the burning

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happened there because the grass is firn.

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Speaker 1: The grass around her body was scorched. Detectives took that

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to mean she was set on fire right there in

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that spot, not burned elsewhere, and moved. This was assumed

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to be a violent, bloody struggle, but there was no

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blood evidence found at the scene. After all, Jessica had

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been laying in this spot behind the middle school for

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two days or more because of the environmental damage. The

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medical examiner was limited and what he could say for sure.

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He listed strangulation as the cause of death. The rest

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possible head and facial injuries couldn't be pinned down with certainty.

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In truth, there wasn't much left to go on. What

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everyone hoped, though, is that Jessica died before she was

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set on fire.

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Speaker 8: From what we gathered, it was from the out tops

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for Ford. We don't know for sure.

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Speaker 6: There's no way to kill perfectly other than there's no

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soot in there to where she would have breathed an.

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Speaker 5: Any soot at that point, So obviously we're hoping she

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was dead before she was certified.

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Speaker 1: BOK evidence can give you an approximate time of death

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and tell you how someone was killed, but it can't

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tell you who a person truly was. Eighteen year old

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Jessica Currn came from a notable local family. Her dad,

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Joe Curran, was the definition of Mayfield High School football,

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church on Sundays, small business, and eventually captain of the

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fire department. Can you picture it? Typical Americana stereotype. The

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dark irony of the situation was not lost on anyone.

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When his daughter was killed, Joe believed his town would

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rally and discover the truth years later, though he would

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still be asking for it.

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Speaker 9: She was pretty tiny. I think she was about seven

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pounds or so when she was born the lover. After

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she grew up, she was more like five nine or so,

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long legs tall. A Nick's son came three years later.

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She was pretty much a mother for him. She packed

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him around all the time. She recorded this football game,

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she recorded his basketball games, and we could tell most

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of the time when she did recording. Most of the

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time recording was only on him. It wasn't on the team.

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It's just on him. I thought that was so funny.

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I'm like, who's scoring the points and who else is

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playing on this team. She's had everything on Josh. She

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showed everything on him. She said, act like nobody else

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was on the team. You could hear a hollering form,

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Go Josh, Go Josh.

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Speaker 7: She read it loved their brothers, and she read it

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loved their family.

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Speaker 1: But soon Jessica grew up. She wasn't a little girl

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anymore caring for her brothers. She was a young woman

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who had just entered adulthood and found herself unexpectedly pregnant.

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Speaker 9: It wasn't a happy time. I wasn't ready for that

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at that time, but she was all and I know

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she would have been seeing a few guys, and I

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knew it was a possibility.

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Speaker 1: Now, this was a community where word got around. People

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were talking about who the father of Jessica's son, Zion,

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might be, and why he might have wanted Jessica dead.

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Within two months, two local men were under the microscope

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at the time of a murder. Baby Zion was only

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seven months old when she first had him. She thought

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Zion's father was a guy she really liked, someone named Marcus.

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But there was a possibility that it was another man,

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someone Jessica really didn't like.

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Speaker 10: Do you know Jessica Kerr?

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Speaker 11: Yes? I do.

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Speaker 7: How did you know Jessica?

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Speaker 10: I met her at Grace County High School. We went

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to school together. We had a math class together, and

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we just started interacting with one another and started hanging

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out and became pretty good friends. Considered her one of

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my best friends. Well, that night had to have been

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the night she got pregnant, so she probably conceived that

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night because the person she was seeing on the regular,

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her sexual partner, was Marcus Morris, and she swore that

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to the baby. She just knew that the baby's daddy

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was because, I mean, for real, it was one time

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with Jeremy, you know, and she we didn't even think

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about that night because we hadn't even seen the dude

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since then, you know. And so when the baby was born,

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she was trying to get child sport ordered for Marcus

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or whatever, and they'd done a DNA test that it

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came back negative or however they come back it wasn't his,

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And so she called me and she told me, and

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she's like, Jessica, the only other person that could be

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is Jeremy Adams.

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Speaker 1: Wording to her best friend, Jessica was devastated, and for

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good reason.

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Speaker 10: When we were hanging out and we first started hanging out,

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she wasn't really dating anyone, and there was a few,

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I mean, we just hung out with people. We didn't

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really date. We would go to football games and you know,

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just things like that with our friends. And then she

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did start seeing Jeremy Adams, but it wasn't a date thing.

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It was a hangout thing, like so we all went

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back to my house and we hang.

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Speaker 12: Out or whatever.

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Speaker 10: And that night he kind of forces lee took her

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around the building and had said they had sex. It

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was like two seconds they were around there and came

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back and he walked off and that was that. And

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then we didn't really see him again. We didn't really

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hang out with him again or anything because she felt

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uncomfortable about that.

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Speaker 7: Okay, Field, He never interviewed to State police, is never contact.

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Speaker 8: No.

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Speaker 1: Rumors that Jeremy was the father of Jessica's baby gave

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rise to theories this was only fueled by the indicators

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that there had been a struggle at the middle school,

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the clump of Jessica's hair, the smudges on the glass doors,

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and a baby that might not be his. All this

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put him right there in the crosshairs of the investigation.

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The circle soon widened to include Carlos Saxton, who moved

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in Jeremy's orbit and, according to Mayfield Police, was with

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him the night they went looking for Jessica. They would

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both face indictment, Jeremy with murder and Carlos as an

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accomplice to murder. The audio you're about to hear is

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from the grand jury proceeding.

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Speaker 8: Would you state your name for the record, protective partner,

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jam And how are you imployant? I'm employed by the

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City of Mayfield at the police detective So.

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Speaker 6: If you were, let's celebrand jury, what happened in how

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you got involved investigation and who we are.

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Speaker 1: Apparently, Jeremy Adams had a cell mate at the county

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jail named Jesse. Well, Jesse desperately wanted to tell authorities

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what Jeremy had shared with him. Well, they were locked

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up together.

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Speaker 8: Jesse is very distraught crime said that this has bothered him.

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That's the reason he wanted to talk to us. He'd

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never mentioned anything about any money, any crime stoppers. Nothing.

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Was very distraught about this.

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Speaker 1: Jesse seemed genuinely terrified at the prospect of sharing a

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cell with a murderer, so scared, in fact, that he

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requested a different cell mate. Eventually, he even requested to

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be transferred to a different facility. Here's Jesse's statement.

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Speaker 8: On January the fifteenth yearm and came to my sale

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while me and two other inmates were there and started

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talking about Jessica's case again and made a statement to

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THEE been seeing Jessica and that she had messed around

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with someone. Then he was talking about an argument and

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held onion out of her brown sandal and been getting

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head so hard that her tongue was in and out.

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Then he made a statement that her little wife, Hannies,

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had been tore off and throug beside her, and that

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she had been killed in one spot and drove to another.

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He also at one time said something about after she

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was done and turned over about the Brady hair being

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stuck to the ground, and said something about not wanting

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his girlfriend finding out about the baby they had to

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get her.

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Speaker 1: These are a lot of details that as far as

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I know, weren't public knowledge at the time, And if

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Jeremy had a girlfriend, that's another possible motive. Jeremy stated

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that he didn't want his girlfriend to find out that

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he had a baby with another woman. Based on all

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of this, grand jury returned indictments for both Jeremy and Carlos.

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The cases were slowly headed towards trial. Jeremy was set

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for February of two thousand and three, but less than

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week before the start, data judge dismissed the case entirely

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the reason Mayfield police had failed to turn over audio

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and video evidence. They had, you know, fucked up a

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procedural thing, some paperwork, some nonsense, and that was that

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Jessica's family felt they knew who had done this. Jeremy

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sellmate was certain he was the one who had killed Jessica.

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But now Jeremy was walking free. Here's Jessica's dad.

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Speaker 7: I wasn't really happy about that at all.

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Speaker 9: I felt like they finally got somebody, and now they're

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releasing him. I remember the first time that I after

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the case had went they had released the first three

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and me and.

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Speaker 7: My wife went to Walmart.

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Speaker 9: And I know a lot of people have been around

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this area on my entire life, and I went in

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Walmart and I would see somebody that I knew and

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I was friends with, and I always speak to talk

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to or shake hands with, and they would turn away,

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and some of them wouldn't know what to say, and

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some of them would just turn and go a different

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direction to avoid me, and that night I realized what

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an impact it had on the community, the people here.

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So I went back to the car. I told my wife,

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I know, I'm not going to put those people through that.

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They really didn't know what to say to me. What

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do you say to a person who's lost their daughter?

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And then they released the people. They really didn't know

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what to say. What do you say?

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Speaker 1: For years, Jessica's murder sat unsolved. But sometimes the person

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who breaks a case doesn't carry a badge and Kentucky,

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a homemaker named Susan Gallbreath decides Jessica's murder shouldn't fade

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into the shadows. If you've spent any time at all

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in the Facebook community, especially the true crime community, you'll

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know that there's a whole lot of these people out there.

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They call themselves I guess web sleuths, or armchair detectives,

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or I don't know any number of things, but they

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got a whole lot of time on their hands, and

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they spend it trying to solve cold cases, often to

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the detriment of the official investigation. Anyway, Susan Golbrith was

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one of these people, and she says she was at

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the crime scene that day, and when she saw Jessica's body,

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she knew she had to help. So she starts small

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with a phone, a list of names and the patients

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to call. Dozens of people. She keeps notes about things

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that don't sit right with her. She shows up with

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questions and lets people talk. Tips all start landing in

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one place, Susan's notebook. Bit by bit, doors that stayed

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closed for law enforcement open for her. Officials learn her name.

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Reporters do also, and for the first time in a

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long time, this case feels like it might actually be

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solvable by a determined woman with a stubborn streak. This

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is the part that really makes you want to believe

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in humanity, at least a little bit, the crazy and

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hopeful idea that an armchair detective can do what the

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system can't or won't, because it looks like, maybe, just maybe,

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Susan would be the one to solve the murder of

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Jessica Curran. In August of the year two thousand, the

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charred body of eighteen year old Jessica Kurran was found

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behind a middle school in Mayfield, Kentucky. The autopsy leaned

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on a piece of braided belt that was found nearby,

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so the medical examiner deduced that the cause of death

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was strangulation. The early case zeroed in on a man

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named Jeremy Adams and his friend Carlos Saxton. They were

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both indicted, but in two thousand and three the cases

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were dismissed after discovery violations. Years passed without answers until

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two thousand and four, when a Kentucky homemaker and self

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proclaimed citizen sleuth put the case back up on the map.

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Susan Galbreath had no law enforcement an experience and had

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never done any real detective work, but sitting alone at home,

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she started investigating, when you.

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Speaker 7: Said you became interestood in this case? Oh, so did

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ay Jessica's body was though? And did you have contact

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with the currents? No?

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Speaker 9: I knew following in the paper.

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Speaker 13: Yes, said that you were when you employed.

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Speaker 7: At that time.

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Speaker 14: No, I have been heard of my job in ninety eight,

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so I hadn't had you know a job since it so.

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Speaker 1: And this new job that had fallen into her lap

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was the one she knew she couldn't do alone. So,

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shooting for the moon, she started reaching out to celebrities

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like Oprah Winfrey and Julia Roberts most never wrote back,

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of course. I mean, I doubt they even see their

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own fan mail. But one person did, not any of

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the A listers, but a guy named Tom Mangold, a

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veteran BBC journalist in London. Susan, it seems, had cast

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a very wide net. Her matter of fact, email landed

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in Tom's inboxing. He answered it in quick succession. He

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shelled out his own cash, bought a plane ticket, and

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flew to Kentucky.

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Speaker 15: I don't think Susan herself is quite sure what it

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was that that particularly grabbed her about the Jessica Couren case.

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If I had to hazard a guess, and I've never

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really done more than guess about it, I think she

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has a kind of theirn Brockovich dimension which came out

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at that particular time, and I think it's still there,

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and I think it could come out again tomorrow. You're

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asking me why did I sense the story one just does?

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I mean, it seemed to me that here was he

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was a very interesting situation where you have murder world.

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Murder's pretty commonplace everywhere in the Western world, but you

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had somebody who was absolutely dedicated to finding who the

346
00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:12,000
culprits were didn't quite know why she was so dedicated

347
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and was up against what was effectively a corrupt police

348
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force totally failed a series of investigations that just plowed

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on and on without any particular benefit to herself.

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Speaker 1: By the spring of two thousand and four, Tom Mangold

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was on the ground reporting with Susan. He once was

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a journalist reporting on wars, organized crime, and UK politics.

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Now he was in Mayfield, Kentucky, reporting on a young

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woman's murder. Susan opened doors and Tom put a spotlight

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on what they were hearing. In the fall of the

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same year, Tom put the case under the microscope with

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an article called Murder in a Small Town. Around the

358
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same time, the state's investigative arm, the newly built Kentucky

359
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Bureau of Investigation. In two thousand and five, two women

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who had already been interviewed years earlier, Victoria Caldwell and

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Venetia Stubblefield, changed their stories. Those new statements taken by

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state investigators now pointed to an entirely different suspect.

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Speaker 7: Wow did they ask you to?

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Speaker 16: Maybe said that's because through where I need to life

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life or fency cross.

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Speaker 1: These reinterviews were done in a hotel conference room. For

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some reason, people who had told one story the first

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time around were now telling an entirely different story. But

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KBI ate up every bit of it. Susan Gobbreath was

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happy to see her cunning detective work finally paying off.

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Speaker 10: You're fully confident in the results that you've.

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Speaker 7: Got, Obviously I am.

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Speaker 17: Yes.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Quincy Cross.

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Speaker 17: I spent about an hour and a half long interview

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with him, and in that interview, Tom told me don't

377
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,759
expect the confession, and so I didn't. But the truth

378
00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:11,079
never changes, but lies do. In that interview, he gave

379
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,000
me some telling information that I knew had never been

380
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made public. I remember at the time screaming pretty much

381
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,839
to the Douga State Police, did you know this is

382
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,480
enough to arrest him on right here? Did it happen?

383
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Speaker 11: No?

384
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Speaker 17: But I definitely believe they've got the right colprit with

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Quincy Cross.

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Speaker 1: Quincy Cross was Victoria's cousin's boyfriend. Victoria tells KBI that

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00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,400
somehow everyone involved knew they were going to be interviewed

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00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,039
by the Mayfield Police, and fifteen year old Victorious as

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she was told to lie to divert attention away from Quincy.

390
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She says she obeyed.

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Speaker 7: Did she come up on your information that she knew about?

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Speaker 14: What told me?

393
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 7: How did you? How did you know your information?

394
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Speaker 16: Because my pason speaking about it and I heard them

395
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say some things.

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Speaker 7: Okay, you talk to us.

397
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Speaker 11: If we had no knowledge of the case of Victoria.

398
00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:25,079
How did you use names? Because you know you knew

399
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:26,880
all the people that you're talking about.

400
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 7: We need to know.

401
00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: Victoria's first statements to KBI were cautious. She says she

402
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,799
just overheard her cousin talking to Quincy Cross about the

403
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,720
case and that's where she was getting her information. But

404
00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:46,359
after numerous follow up interviews that summer, her story crystallized.

405
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,519
Victoria's statements would implicate six people in total, including herself.

406
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By the time she took the stand in two thousand

407
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,799
and eight, her story had become sharper, more linear, and

408
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much more disturbing.

409
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 3: That's when Quincy and Tamra and this white guy ms

410
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,519
Vain But they.

411
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Speaker 16: Had pulled up to my house.

412
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Speaker 7: You remember his first night.

413
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Speaker 16: Yeah, it was Jeffrey.

414
00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 3: My cousin asked us that I wanted to take a

415
00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:19,160
ride with them, and I was like yeah, because she's

416
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,240
older than me, you know, so it's cloding out older people.

417
00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:24,680
So then I get into the car with them, which

418
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I got into the back seat. They picked up Anisia.

419
00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:33,960
Vanisha had mentioned that Jessica had need to arrive for

420
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the party, and I guess nobody wanted to get a ride.

421
00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:42,200
So I don't remember what said, but Quincy and tamahad

422
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,640
went for something to each other and they were like, okay,

423
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then local pick her up. Jessica gets into the car.

424
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When we got into the white guy's house, they had

425
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gotten out. We all had gotten out, but they had

426
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,920
pulled Jessica to get out the car with them, kind

427
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,359
of like forcing her to get out the car, and

428
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,480
they go inside and then they go into this letter.

429
00:27:05,039 --> 00:27:08,240
The white guy had left me and went into the

430
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,799
room with them, and they came right back out. But

431
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,960
then I heard yelling and excuse me, So I was

432
00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:16,559
wondering what the hell was going on, and so I

433
00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:19,160
opened the door, and that's when I had to see

434
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,920
Tamra colding Jessica down and Quincy over her with the

435
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,720
belt around her neck, and Quincy was kind of over her,

436
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,319
like kind of like over her stomach up high on

437
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,000
her stomach area, and he had a belt that he

438
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,400
had gotten from his pants.

439
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 16: And had put it around her neck, and she was

440
00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:42,519
just I.

441
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:46,319
Speaker 3: Remember her saying that she had she has a little boy,

442
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,599
and she just kept saying Zion. But they didn't let

443
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,200
her up, and I just went back out over her

444
00:27:54,799 --> 00:27:57,559
real quick, and I had just sat down on that

445
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,599
couch and then I just went back in there again,

446
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and that's when I was.

447
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 16: Like, she's not breathing.

448
00:28:05,599 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 5: So I touched her.

449
00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 7: Neck and I told him much she was dead.

450
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: Victoria says her cousin Tamra took some photos of Quincy

451
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,319
with Jessica's body. These photos were never found.

452
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 3: From the pictures that I saw, Tamarhus take a couple

453
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:28,039
of those pictures because she like got his private area

454
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,680
out and I was like kind of torched her lips, lips.

455
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Speaker 11: And this.

456
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 7: Was this before after she was murdered.

457
00:28:43,119 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: That's what I mean by they were getting off on it.

458
00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:48,519
Speaker 1: Victoria says. They wrapped Jessica's body in a blanket and

459
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,759
threw her into the trunk of the car. They drove

460
00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:53,640
around for a while and eventually ended up in the

461
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,039
Mayfield Middle School.

462
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Speaker 7: Okay, so they stopped at the school. Who gets the

463
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,279
body out of the trunk? First?

464
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,519
Speaker 3: Quincy and the why guy try to lift the body

465
00:29:05,559 --> 00:29:08,680
of the truck, but they couldn't, so Tanner went to

466
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:10,559
the back and helped them let the body out.

467
00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:11,359
Speaker 9: Okay.

468
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,359
Speaker 7: And what do they do with the body?

469
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 16: They they lay it in the flower bed area. What

470
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:17,680
the flower bed is?

471
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 7: Okay?

472
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 3: And then what happens they I don't remember if they

473
00:29:24,279 --> 00:29:27,880
took the bank off, I don't remember. They Quincy for

474
00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:31,359
the gas on her and Venicia had through the match

475
00:29:32,319 --> 00:29:32,720
the gas.

476
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,559
Speaker 7: Joy had the gas powed on. I believe it was

477
00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:38,079
her face.

478
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,319
Speaker 16: I'm not really sure.

479
00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:44,039
Speaker 7: Okay, so he pours the gas. What does he do

480
00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:44,559
with the cup?

481
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 3: I don't remember what he did with the cup because

482
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,720
after he poured the gas, and they should do the

483
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:51,359
match byron.

484
00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: Okay, so Quincy, everybody gets the story again, Jeremy Adams

485
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:01,799
is gonna be follow that. Was there any discussion why

486
00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:05,599
how did Jeremy Adams's name come into Whose idea was that?

487
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 5: Because?

488
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,359
Speaker 3: I guess Jeremy owe him to the money?

489
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 7: Okay? Was there a mansion?

490
00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: Was there any mention about did anybody know that Jeremy

491
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:18,400
ever had a relationship with Jessica.

492
00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 7: How does she know that.

493
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 11: O.

494
00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 16: Tallman has known JUSTI for a long time?

495
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:26,839
Speaker 7: I understanding.

496
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: But it wasn't just Victoria Caldwell who had changed her

497
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:35,720
story and agreed to testify. Venetia Stubblefield wasn't a primary witness,

498
00:30:35,759 --> 00:30:39,519
but she corroborated pieces of Victoria's story. This included the

499
00:30:39,559 --> 00:30:43,920
others that were implicated in Victoria's version of events, a

500
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,480
man named Jeff Burton, the owner of the house. She

501
00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:50,480
testified that the murder happened in her cousin Tamara Caldwell,

502
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,079
and a guy named Austin Leach, and someone named Isaac Benjamin.

503
00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:00,480
All this testimony gave the jury a cohesive change from

504
00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:03,839
the house to the car, to the middle school. Victoria

505
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,920
also testified that after that day, Quincy calder, claiming the

506
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,400
belt used to kill Jessica was his, and offered Victoria

507
00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:15,799
money to keep quiet. The Commonwealth put all of this

508
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,599
in front of a jury. There were no dramatic forensics,

509
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,640
there was no hard physical evidence and no confession from Quincy.

510
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,720
It was all a narrative built from testimony, with Victoria

511
00:31:27,799 --> 00:31:34,480
Caldwell at the center of it all, and it worked. Ultimately,

512
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:37,559
the jury decided this group of people were guilty and

513
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:41,839
that Quincy Cross was the ringleader. After being found guilty

514
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,720
on charges of murder, first degree, rape, first degree sodomy,

515
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:49,200
abuse of a corpse, and tampering with evidence, Quincy was

516
00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:52,799
sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

517
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,480
After the trial, guilty verdict, and sentencing, numerous questions still

518
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:01,880
hung in the air. When a case leans this heart

519
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,279
on human stories, some of them changing over time. How

520
00:32:06,319 --> 00:32:10,880
should we weigh them? What's the standard? People forget things

521
00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:16,240
and get things wrong all of the time. We know

522
00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:19,519
that we've seen it. So what do you do with

523
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,119
human testimony?

524
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,079
Speaker 18: As you can imagine, I get presented with cases many

525
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,079
times a day, all day. I mean, you know, that's

526
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,880
one of the things about being known in this space,

527
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,759
right A lot of people need help, and if they're

528
00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:35,200
smart and you know, and they have the ability, they're

529
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:35,799
going to reach out.

530
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: So this is Jason Flahm. He's a veteran record executive

531
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:44,960
termed innocence advocate. Whether you think you're the next big

532
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:48,599
pop star or you're wrongfully convicted, he's the guy to call.

533
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,359
Speaker 18: When I first heard about this case from a guy

534
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,720
in prison in Mississippi, who I've been trying to help

535
00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:58,720
for some time now. His name is Sharon Edwards, but

536
00:32:58,759 --> 00:32:59,759
he calls himself Sherlock.

537
00:32:59,799 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 7: Home.

538
00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 18: He's a great guy. He's not an innocent guy, but

539
00:33:04,119 --> 00:33:09,319
it's a complicated case. But anyway, Sharon Sherlock enjoys researching

540
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,640
cases around the country and bringing them to me when

541
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,039
he finds cases of actual innocence. So he spends his

542
00:33:14,119 --> 00:33:17,160
time in the law library. And he brought me the

543
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,000
case of Quincy Cross. And when I heard about it,

544
00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:25,400
I just was flown away. I mean, I hear so

545
00:33:25,559 --> 00:33:28,880
many crazy cases, but the deeper you get into this one,

546
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,720
it's like layers of a rotten onion. You just keep

547
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:34,680
healing them and it just keeps smelling worse and worse,

548
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,799
and you go, wow, how could this be? And then

549
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,319
I came to find out. Sorry for my rant here,

550
00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:43,880
but I came to find out that the two dads,

551
00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:49,680
Quincy Cross's dad and Jessica Kurrn's dad, have been aligned

552
00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:53,440
for many, many years now working together to try to

553
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:59,640
get justice. David Cross wants justice for his son who's

554
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:05,000
wrong convicted, and mister Kurran believes wants justice for his

555
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,719
daughter and he has he's unequivocal, and that he doesn't

556
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,320
believe they got the right person. And so it's so

557
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:16,360
such an unusual and powerful alignment to have the two

558
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:20,159
dads working together when one would think that they would

559
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:21,559
be mortal enemies.

560
00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:25,599
Speaker 1: If the people who lived this case, se Quincy isn't

561
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,800
the killer, what do they know that the jury didn't.

562
00:34:30,559 --> 00:34:34,119
Speaker 18: One of the things that makes this case so maddening

563
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,000
is the idea that first thing they did was they

564
00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:39,840
assigned a rookie cop, well a rookie, a guy who

565
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,519
had just been promoted to detective. He was a patrolman

566
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,280
up until you know, I don't know, days or weeks

567
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,079
before this happened in a place that has hadn't had

568
00:34:49,119 --> 00:34:53,000
a murder in over a year, and they assigned this guy,

569
00:34:53,119 --> 00:34:56,639
Tim Fortner, who has said that he thinks that they

570
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,320
were setting him up to fail. He didn't know anything.

571
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,280
He didn't even know to secure the crime scene, they

572
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,079
threw out evidence, like lots of evidence. They threw out

573
00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:07,840
the maggots that were on the body. Sorry for that detail,

574
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,840
because she had been dead for some time, which would

575
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,000
have helped to determine how long she had been there for.

576
00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:16,639
They threw out all sorts of other evidence, and they

577
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,679
allowed people to sort of trape through the crime scene,

578
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,360
which is, you know, again, give me your random, you know,

579
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,159
teenager and they would know from watching crime shows on

580
00:35:28,559 --> 00:35:32,599
their laptop that or their iPad that you don't do that, right.

581
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 7: But Tim.

582
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,639
Speaker 18: Was way over his head. But there was a lot

583
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,199
of stuff going on. I mean, the Mayfield Police Department

584
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,320
was hopelessly corrupt and that's not speculation, right, That's been proven.

585
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:51,400
The head guy there, Ronnie Lear, was almost comically corrupt

586
00:35:51,519 --> 00:35:56,679
and was you know, indicted and charged unconvicted of all

587
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,599
sorts of you know, all sorts of crimes.

588
00:35:59,599 --> 00:35:59,679
Speaker 10: You know.

589
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 18: When he cleared out, when he was fired from the

590
00:36:02,519 --> 00:36:06,119
police department, they cleared out his desk. They found, as

591
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,519
his successor said, they found enough drugs for half of

592
00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:12,840
Mayfield in his desk, and they found guns that weren't

593
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,239
his police weapon and they weren't registered to him and

594
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,440
they don't know who it belonged to. He was he

595
00:36:18,639 --> 00:36:23,320
was caught stealing from the evidence room and selling various items.

596
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,039
I mean, he was, he was.

597
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:29,760
Speaker 1: He was a character and into this mess center. Susan Galberth,

598
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,880
the professional armchair detective.

599
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:35,639
Speaker 7: You know Susan gale Bra, Yes, sir, I do.

600
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,199
Speaker 19: And she was involved in the investigations of this case,

601
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,199
which is not yes, sir, she has nothing to do

602
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,599
with law enforcement because she.

603
00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 10: No, sir.

604
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, she was actually.

605
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 19: Involved in president during official questioning of witnesses.

606
00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:03,199
Speaker 1: Was she not official questioning of witnesses?

607
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 19: In other words, we look at transcripts where they say

608
00:37:08,559 --> 00:37:13,519
persons present and will see you and y z'neil gallery,

609
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,440
so and so social gallery.

610
00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 7: She was at any interview that's possible.

611
00:37:19,079 --> 00:37:26,599
Speaker 18: She was, you know, bizarrely, almost anointed deputized someone who

612
00:37:26,639 --> 00:37:29,800
had no experience, no background in law enforcement or any

613
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,920
investigative experience or anything. She wasn't a journalist. She was

614
00:37:35,079 --> 00:37:38,679
just a homemaker who they allowed to run roughshot over

615
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,880
this case. And she was given full access to everything.

616
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,360
And sure enough she got her way and she got

617
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,320
some awards, and she's not around anymore. But she she

618
00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:56,519
died relatively young, I guess, but she left a trail

619
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,639
of bodies in her way.

620
00:37:59,039 --> 00:38:00,119
Speaker 7: That is really.

621
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 18: It's really uh extraordinary.

622
00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 7: Did you have an interest in through a ball in general?

623
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 13: Well, when I was a child, I either wanted to

624
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,639
be a comedian, or a police officer. So I mean neither,

625
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:22,079
of course, But so I've just always had a fascination

626
00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:23,239
with the law and things like that.

627
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,079
Speaker 7: Had you taken an interest in other pases.

628
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 13: Prior to this one, Yeah, I like followed courts, TV

629
00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:34,719
stuff like that, And so I of course was at

630
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,960
the time there were so many murders in Mayfield going

631
00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:40,119
on that it I was I was just you know,

632
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,159
dumbfounded by it. It was just you know, and here

633
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,559
was another one in it. Just all of them kind

634
00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:50,880
of captured interested me, you know. So a detective Steaker

635
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,519
and I, through.

636
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 14: Detected Mills became acquainted, and so I started anytime and

637
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,440
he had anything that I could give him, I would

638
00:38:58,559 --> 00:38:59,599
call him then, you.

639
00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:04,639
Speaker 1: Know, just a reminder, this was quite literally a random

640
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,000
unemployed woman calling to interview people, taking notes and reporting

641
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:13,039
back to authorities, and they were taking her seriously. They

642
00:39:13,039 --> 00:39:15,400
should tell you something about the state and effectiveness of

643
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,119
government more than anything. That is, if you're smart enough

644
00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:22,760
to pay attention. The audio you've been hearing, by the way,

645
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:27,400
is from her testimony at Quincy Cross's trial. That's how

646
00:39:27,519 --> 00:39:30,599
deeply he was integrated into this case.

647
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,159
Speaker 18: She was definitely a key piece of it. They really

648
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:39,079
didn't have much else. They had some circumstantial evidence that

649
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,119
even after it was disproven, they clung to and they

650
00:39:42,199 --> 00:39:44,480
kept reinforcing it and hitting the jury over the head

651
00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:50,000
with it figuratively, you know. But there's so much to

652
00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:55,320
process because it's such a crazy web of lies and corruption,

653
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,519
and you know, and nine people arrested for this crime

654
00:39:59,599 --> 00:40:04,280
under these whacked out theories, and you know, several of

655
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,679
whom ended up in prison, and Quincy's the only one

656
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,679
who's still in prison, but some of them, you know,

657
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,960
there were people who were forced to testify in a

658
00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:14,079
certain way and then recanted. All the witnesses is recanted,

659
00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:19,280
and there's no physical evidence of any kind all these

660
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,159
years later, as we know now, there's none. There's zero

661
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,000
evidence connecting any of the people who eventually were targeted

662
00:40:25,679 --> 00:40:29,920
and I believe framed for this horrible crime to the

663
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,480
crime itself or to Jessica. And what we know now

664
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:35,360
is that most of them didn't even know each other

665
00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:37,920
at the time that they supposedly committed this crime together.

666
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,119
Things that make you go hmmm, right that that pointed

667
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,559
towards you know, some of the people who ended up

668
00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:49,159
in the crosshairs of the of law enforcement. But how

669
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,119
those things unravel is breathtaking.

670
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,119
Speaker 1: When eighteen year old Jessica Currn's body was found behind

671
00:41:27,159 --> 00:41:30,639
a Mayfield middle school in two thousand, the crime scene

672
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,360
was handled sloppily, to say the least, evidence went missing.

673
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,199
The Mayfield Police department was corrupt and as a result,

674
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,960
they dropped the ball, and the ball fell through the

675
00:41:42,039 --> 00:41:46,320
grate and into the sewer. Their original suspect, Jeremy Adams,

676
00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:51,119
slipped through their incompetent fingers. Then, after a year of stagnation,

677
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,599
a new storyline formed around Susan Golbrith, the local sleuth.

678
00:41:57,639 --> 00:42:02,480
Suddenly memory started to change. With Susan's help, Victoria Caldwell

679
00:42:02,559 --> 00:42:05,519
and a few others came forward to law enforcement with

680
00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:09,760
their new story that Quincy Cross had killed Jessica Current.

681
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,039
But there are glaring issues with this second attempt at justice.

682
00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:18,559
We know the justice system is flawed, but digging into

683
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:22,159
the intricacies of a case like this reveals just how

684
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,480
deep the roots of corruption can grow. This is a

685
00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:28,039
complicated story, but if you've been listening to our show

686
00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:30,840
for many years, you'll keep up just fine.

687
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 18: You're not a sword and scale regular listener, and you

688
00:42:33,519 --> 00:42:36,440
don't know what you're doing right. I mean, that doesn't

689
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:37,880
make you. I mean you're gonna be right all the time,

690
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,880
But you're more informed than ninety nine percent of the

691
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,519
general public if you're listening to Sword and Scale a

692
00:42:41,559 --> 00:42:45,119
regular basis. So I'm a podcast fan and I true

693
00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:48,599
crime podcasts are my jam. And maybe that sounds terrible,

694
00:42:48,639 --> 00:42:51,280
but it's true. But this one, I believe is as

695
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,039
good as any that you've ever heard that I've ever heard.

696
00:42:56,039 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: Jason Flahm isn't just a huge name in the music industry.

697
00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:02,960
He's one of the founding members of the Innocence Project.

698
00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:05,719
I'm sure you've heard of it. And I'm not just

699
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,920
being nice to him because he's kissing my ass.

700
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 18: My origin story goes back to nineteen ninety three when

701
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,239
I randomly picked up a newspaper on my way in

702
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,440
a taxi to go somewhere, and there was a story

703
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,679
about a kid named Stephen Lennon who was serving fifteen

704
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,239
to life on a nonviolent first defense cocaine possession charge

705
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,639
in a maximum security prison in New York State. And

706
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:28,760
it was in the paper because his mother, who was

707
00:43:29,559 --> 00:43:31,880
just a mother who wanted her son back right. She

708
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,760
wasn't like any influential person, had no particular means. She

709
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,639
was just a regular, everyday person from Rome, New York.

710
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,559
And she had been petitioning for clemency for her son.

711
00:43:42,639 --> 00:43:44,480
He had already been in for eight years. He was

712
00:43:44,559 --> 00:43:46,519
thirty two. I was thirty two at this point. I

713
00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:48,280
had been sober almost eight years, and I was like,

714
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,039
this is too close for comfort. That could have been me. Right.

715
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:53,480
I'm not a religious guy, but there before the grace

716
00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:56,679
of whatever you believe in goes I right. So, a

717
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,840
major political figure at the time had asked the governor

718
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,480
to grant clemency to her son, and he had refused,

719
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:05,400
which is why it was in the newspaper. So I

720
00:44:05,639 --> 00:44:08,920
just thought, this is insane. I didn't know that we

721
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:11,360
put people in prison for fifteen years to life for

722
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,239
a non violent burst defense cocaine possession charge.

723
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 7: Like ah, I was like, this is you know.

724
00:44:17,079 --> 00:44:18,599
Speaker 18: It freaked me out, and I decided I had to

725
00:44:18,639 --> 00:44:21,199
try to do something. Knowing nothing at all, I'm a

726
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,480
thirty two year old and our guy aspiring to make

727
00:44:23,519 --> 00:44:27,480
my way into music industry. And I called the mother

728
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,920
on the phone. Her name was Shirley, her number was

729
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,679
in the phone book. Luckily, I offered to send some

730
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,679
money to get a new lawyer. She said they'd exhausted

731
00:44:35,679 --> 00:44:38,679
all their appeals and was hopeless. And one thing led

732
00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:40,719
to another. I called up the only criminal defense latter

733
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,280
I knew at the time, a guy named Bob Kleena.

734
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:44,800
He represented Stone Tuble Pilots in skid Row and they

735
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,480
were getting arrested weekly. Back then, those are your listeners

736
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,840
who are old enough to remember would remember. That got

737
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,840
him to agree. He agreed to take the case pro bono.

738
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,760
He said it was hopeless, but he was going to try.

739
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,199
And six months later we ended up in a courtroom

740
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,119
in Malone, New York, and I sat there holding Missus

741
00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:00,360
Lennon's hand, her husband's Stan was on the other side.

742
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,280
Stephen was there in shackles as if he was some

743
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,840
you know, serial killer or something right, and it's a

744
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,760
non violent for his defender, and the judge was this

745
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,880
old guy with white hair, and I was like, this

746
00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:13,480
is not going to go well, but it did, and

747
00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:17,760
he banged that gavel down and since Stephen home, and

748
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,239
that was my moment. I said, this is I didn't

749
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,079
know I had a superpower, but if I do. This

750
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:23,840
is it, and I'm going to use it as much

751
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:25,440
as i can for as long as I can. And

752
00:45:25,519 --> 00:45:27,840
I've never looked back. I've never stopped. That's literally half

753
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,840
a lifetime ago from me. So from there I learned

754
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,400
about organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums now called FAMM.

755
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,079
I became their first board member, and soon after that

756
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,960
I learned about the work of the Innocence Project. Barry

757
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,039
Schek and Peter Neufeldt had started the Innocence Project in

758
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:45,679
the early nineties. And what I saw on TV was

759
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,719
even another level of insanity, which was a case where

760
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,920
this guy had been scheduled to be executed, and these guys,

761
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,239
these two geniuses, had come along with their law books

762
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,239
and their microscopes and their knowledge of science, and they

763
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,280
found the DNA and they identified it and they proved

764
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,920
that he could not have been the person that committed

765
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,679
this crime. And he was not only not executed, he

766
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,000
was freed. And I said, that's the craziest thing I've

767
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,079
ever heard. And I rushed down to their office and

768
00:46:09,119 --> 00:46:10,679
I walked in and I said, I don't know what

769
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,480
you guys need me to do, but I'll do it.

770
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,280
And I'll do more. And so myself and a guy

771
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,639
named Jack Taylor became the first two board members of

772
00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:22,400
the Innisons Project, so founding board member, not the founders,

773
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,199
because the founders are Barry and Peter, but you know

774
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,760
who are heroes of mine. And so I've been, you know,

775
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,639
working on these issues ever since, and I'll never stop

776
00:46:31,679 --> 00:46:32,599
as long as I'm breathing.

777
00:46:33,519 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: Jason's decades of experience have helped him and his team

778
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,719
to suss out false claims of innocence. Sometimes a guy

779
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,159
saying he's been wrongfully convicted really did commit the crime.

780
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:48,920
In fact, that's often the case, but Jason is confident

781
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:52,000
that this isn't what happened with Quincy Cross.

782
00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 18: I'm so glad I get the effort to tell you

783
00:46:54,039 --> 00:46:56,519
the story. So after I heard about the case from

784
00:46:56,599 --> 00:47:02,159
Sherlock Homeboy, there's an another case, another Kentucky case I've

785
00:47:02,199 --> 00:47:04,599
been working on for some time of a guy named

786
00:47:04,679 --> 00:47:07,840
James Mallory and he's been in prison, oh my god,

787
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:11,920
for I mean pretty much since he was eleven. I've

788
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,400
been working on trying to help free him. And I

789
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,440
happened to be on the phone with him not too

790
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:23,440
long after I first heard about this crazy case. And

791
00:47:23,639 --> 00:47:26,280
I said to him, James, you're not gonna believe this.

792
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,719
I just got involved in another Kentucky case. It's this

793
00:47:29,519 --> 00:47:32,360
horrible case where this poor girl was eighteen years old

794
00:47:32,519 --> 00:47:35,519
and you know, just a beautiful young girl starting her life,

795
00:47:35,599 --> 00:47:38,599
and you know, was set on fire behind the middle school.

796
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,079
And he goes, oh, you're talking about Quincy Cross case.

797
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,800
I'm like, yeah, Cross. He goes, oh, Man, he goes,

798
00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:49,000
that motherfucker's innocent. I'm like, I go, well, he goes, oh, yeah.

799
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:52,239
He says he's definitely I know he's in this. I go,

800
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:53,880
how do you know he's in it? And he goes, man,

801
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:56,119
I was in jail with him. He says, he's a

802
00:47:56,159 --> 00:47:58,400
good dude. He goes, I read his transcripts. I know

803
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,880
the case inside and out. That guy's definitely innocent. I go,

804
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,159
he's definitely this and he goes, no, I'm telling you

805
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,239
he's really really innocent. I go, how you say he's

806
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,360
really really really inno? City said, well, because dude, he goes,

807
00:48:10,159 --> 00:48:14,079
the actual killer was my cellmate. He goes look it

808
00:48:14,199 --> 00:48:17,159
up and the doc records and he confessed to me

809
00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:22,000
and everybody else in the jail and he goes, I

810
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:24,679
know every detail of the case. He told it all

811
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,559
to me. And he goes, and I'm from that area,

812
00:48:27,039 --> 00:48:29,039
so I recognize I know some of the people.

813
00:48:30,159 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: The cellmate this guy said had confessed to the murder

814
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:35,559
was Jeremy Adams.

815
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 18: I was like, oh my god, what are the odds

816
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,880
of this? And you know, the first thing I did

817
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:46,360
was called actually called Barry Shack at the Ennis's Project.

818
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,559
I said, Barry, is this hearsay? He goes, no, that's

819
00:48:48,599 --> 00:48:51,920
a statement against interest if he actually And I said

820
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,360
to James, I don't want to put you in a

821
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,079
bad way, like if you're you know, I don't want

822
00:48:56,079 --> 00:48:58,519
you to be labeled as somebody who told on somebody

823
00:48:58,559 --> 00:49:00,239
who confessed. You said no, no. On this case, it

824
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,719
doesn't matter because he confessed to so many people, and

825
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,519
everybody here knows that Quincy ain't the guy. So he goes,

826
00:49:07,559 --> 00:49:11,119
I'll sign Affidavid's I'll do whatever you want. I don't

827
00:49:11,159 --> 00:49:12,519
know the exact number, but there could be as many

828
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:16,119
as fifteen people who have come forward, either with affidavids

829
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:20,519
or with statements that Jeremy confessed to them.

830
00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:24,559
Speaker 1: And let's not forget that Jessica's best friend, someone who

831
00:49:24,599 --> 00:49:27,360
hasn't changed her story over the years, told police that

832
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,840
Jessica knew her baby's father had to be one of

833
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,320
two men. She had a paternity test done and it

834
00:49:34,599 --> 00:49:37,800
came back negative for the first guy. So, you know,

835
00:49:39,079 --> 00:49:41,599
but let's now take a moment and revisit people who

836
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:46,760
did change their stories, because that's the crooks of the case.

837
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,119
Speaker 18: There were witnesses who have come forward and talked about

838
00:49:50,199 --> 00:49:55,760
how the Kentucky Brea of Investigation State police threatened them

839
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,480
with really terrible things, taking their children away, sending them

840
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,840
to prison for the rest of their life, jabbing them

841
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,840
with a needle. They conducted these very unorthodox interrogations in

842
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,039
a hotel instead of at the police station. You know,

843
00:50:10,199 --> 00:50:14,960
the whole thing is really pretty grotesque. And when you hear,

844
00:50:15,119 --> 00:50:19,119
which you will hear, these people come forward and tell

845
00:50:20,119 --> 00:50:24,960
their truth, the pain is palpable as they talk about

846
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:29,320
how they were made to lie under these threats. And

847
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,199
they were kids, you know, so they were kids. Some

848
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,280
of them were troubled when was a crack, you know,

849
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,400
was addicted to crack, and that's how you end up

850
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:40,119
in this situation.

851
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:45,559
Speaker 1: Jason hosts his own podcast called Wrongful conviction. He's the

852
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:49,079
founder of the parent company Lava for Good, a media

853
00:50:49,159 --> 00:50:52,760
company that partners with the Innocence Project. His team spent

854
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,000
several years digging into the case, and the result was

855
00:50:56,079 --> 00:51:00,280
a full season of their show Bone Valley. Check it

856
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,679
out on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. At first, when the

857
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,599
team reached out to interview Victoria Caldwell, she seemed almost

858
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,679
afraid to talk about the case.

859
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 4: I don't know, I'm not allowed to talk about I

860
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:14,519
don't want to get these people off.

861
00:51:14,599 --> 00:51:15,599
Speaker 3: And they're very powerful.

862
00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:19,159
Speaker 7: So that's some awful what kind of word?

863
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 11: What should be powerful?

864
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:21,960
Speaker 5: You're making me nervous.

865
00:51:22,119 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: Maybe I should rethink having this conversation very powerful people.

866
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,360
Eventually they coaxed Victoria and others to talk.

867
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:32,199
Speaker 10: I really feel like my.

868
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 12: I guess my statement that I gave the video would

869
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,960
stopped lots of times, and I was told what to.

870
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 10: Say and people could see these.

871
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:44,119
Speaker 4: Who was telling you?

872
00:51:46,519 --> 00:51:50,159
Speaker 16: From wanting here to the KBI.

873
00:51:52,679 --> 00:51:54,280
Speaker 20: How did they get you to say what they got

874
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:54,760
you to say?

875
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 4: What happened?

876
00:51:56,639 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 8: They told me Dale stick a needle in my arm

877
00:51:59,000 --> 00:51:59,800
on the elevator.

878
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:03,519
Speaker 14: History was called Jury and Paducah, Kentucky.

879
00:52:04,559 --> 00:52:07,159
Speaker 1: In case you couldn't understand what she was saying in context.

880
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,280
Victoria says they threatened to do all this at the

881
00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:16,039
Drury Inn in Paducah, Kentucky. That's the hotel KBI conducted

882
00:52:16,079 --> 00:52:21,519
the interviews at Venetia Stubblefield. The peripheral witness who corroborated

883
00:52:21,559 --> 00:52:25,880
parts of Victoria's second version of events, signed an affid David,

884
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,880
admitting that she gave false testimony at the behest of

885
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:34,400
law enforcement. Another witness admitted that she had been willing

886
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,559
to testify for money, and said that officers threatened to

887
00:52:37,559 --> 00:52:40,440
put her in jail or take her kids away if

888
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:44,519
she didn't keep lying. And remember, all of these people

889
00:52:44,599 --> 00:52:48,280
were implicated by the story. They served their short sentences

890
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:52,679
and years later they've recanted. Sounds like a bunch of

891
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,800
shitty police work if you ask me, But hey, what

892
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,000
am I other than an Internet sleuth.

893
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,679
Speaker 18: They took plea deals because Quincy went to trial first,

894
00:53:02,599 --> 00:53:06,199
and he when he was convicted and sentenced to life.

895
00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:09,920
You know, for the other people, they were looking at

896
00:53:10,039 --> 00:53:12,679
a similar fate, and if they were when they were

897
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:16,880
offered a deal, it's a sophie's choice. But you can't

898
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,679
blame them for taking it. This is some this is

899
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,840
some small town stuff. And you know, if you're if

900
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,199
you're looking at you know, basically a living death sentence, right,

901
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,679
and the prosecutors only in Princey's case, asked for him

902
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,039
to get the death penalty. Then, I you know, that's

903
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:37,480
that's a that's a choice that you can I hope

904
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:39,400
nobody that's listening ever has to make that choice, but

905
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,519
you can you can understand how that choice could have

906
00:53:41,559 --> 00:53:43,519
been made by people who were actually innocent. It happens

907
00:53:43,519 --> 00:53:46,960
all the time. Well, and surprisingly the lowest sentences were

908
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:51,159
the ones who testified for the government, two of them.

909
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,679
And there's so many people there were nine, right, and

910
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:55,480
I can't even keep them all straight in my head.

911
00:53:55,519 --> 00:53:58,039
But when you hear the podcast, you'll know. Because that's

912
00:53:58,079 --> 00:54:00,440
the awesome power of the government, right they can they

913
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,239
can say to you, you know, you give us information

914
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,800
on so and so, and you know we're gonna we're

915
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:07,679
going to make sure things go well for you. So

916
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:11,480
the sentences were I mean almost ceremonial in those cases, right,

917
00:54:11,599 --> 00:54:13,960
because if that's the right word.

918
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,440
Speaker 1: And the power of the government doesn't stop there. In

919
00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:21,000
this case, Jason's team at Lava for Good and the

920
00:54:21,119 --> 00:54:26,400
Kentucky Innocence Projects separately uncovered evidence that Victoria Caldwell had

921
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,840
been paid by the state and was essentially put in

922
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:34,000
their witness protection program, relocating her to North Carolina and

923
00:54:34,159 --> 00:54:37,960
funding her entire lifestyle while the case was being built.

924
00:54:39,159 --> 00:54:42,920
Records show that the Attorney General's Office and Kentucky State

925
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,599
Police were reimbursing her from February two thousand and seven

926
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,039
through January of two thousand and eight, almost a year.

927
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:58,280
They paid for rent, utilities, groceries, restaurants, gas, car repairs, clothing,

928
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:03,679
phone cards, and even purchases from places like sex shops.

929
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:05,079
Speaker 7: Yeah.

930
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where your taxes are going. Believe it or not.

931
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,760
Speaker 4: I read an article from some time ago.

932
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 13: Did there was a rumor at some cop named O'Neil

933
00:55:17,119 --> 00:55:17,400
and na?

934
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 10: Was there ever any monetary exchange between your head?

935
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 7: What do you mean monetary money?

936
00:55:27,199 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 8: Did he send you money at all?

937
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,079
Speaker 10: He's always giving me money, Okay, when you save money?

938
00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 7: What kind of money?

939
00:55:35,079 --> 00:55:36,679
Speaker 5: Like we're talking like a couple of hundred bucks just

940
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:38,199
to get by, or we're talking like a couple of

941
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:41,280
grand to help more than a couple of grand. But

942
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:42,440
he's always taking care of me.

943
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 12: Is it cash?

944
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 10: Check? Little cash?

945
00:55:47,159 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 3: Always cash?

946
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 1: You meet in public places or he comes to you?

947
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 5: How does that work?

948
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,039
Speaker 17: No, he comes to my house.

949
00:55:54,199 --> 00:55:58,519
Speaker 1: That trial, when the defense asked about this, KBI downplayed it,

950
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,800
acting as if they'd only paid for rent and utilities.

951
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,679
This wasn't an isolated incident either. Another state witness said

952
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,559
officers paid her one hundred dollars to make controlled calls

953
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,079
cash for cooperation, all while she was in the grips

954
00:56:16,199 --> 00:56:20,079
of drug addiction. But all of this is just the

955
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:23,400
tip of the iceberg. Let's get back to Susan Gowbreeth

956
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,760
and Tom Mangold for the moment. Susan was actually the

957
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,079
very first person to put Victoria Caldwell in touch with

958
00:56:30,199 --> 00:56:33,760
the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation for a second round of questioning.

959
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,079
She steered the narrative prosecutors eventually ran with, and she

960
00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:42,920
had a motive much deeper than just a cursory interest

961
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:43,719
in this case.

962
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 18: She was in a relationship with the mother of the

963
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:57,880
obvious suspect, Jeremy Adams, and it seems like she found

964
00:56:58,039 --> 00:57:02,119
something to do. I think she was born and she

965
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:08,840
found this opportunity to become famous important. Whatever was she

966
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,360
was after, and at the same time helped to steer

967
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:19,880
the cops away from the son of her partner of

968
00:57:20,119 --> 00:57:23,400
relationship whatever they want to call that, to her lover.

969
00:57:25,039 --> 00:57:30,199
And then, of course, in order to finish that job,

970
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,079
she had depended on somebody else.

971
00:57:33,199 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 1: And to think that this woman was allowed behind the

972
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,519
crime scene tape, she was given backstage access to the

973
00:57:40,599 --> 00:57:45,880
evidence rooms, told authorities who to interview, sat in those

974
00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:50,039
very same police interviews, discussed her theories with the Kentucky

975
00:57:50,199 --> 00:57:56,920
State Police, and even testified at Quincy's trial. She inserted

976
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,559
herself into this crime to a degree that is unprecedented.

977
00:58:02,199 --> 00:58:05,159
Speaker 18: I don't think we'll ever know all of it, because

978
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,519
there weren't records made of all the conversations. But what

979
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,599
we do know is that she was given a level

980
00:58:12,639 --> 00:58:17,400
of access that is is confounding, to say the least,

981
00:58:17,679 --> 00:58:21,239
and not just access, but influence. She was allowed to

982
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:26,880
steer the investigation as if she was some senior official

983
00:58:28,079 --> 00:58:33,199
empowered to run roughshod over this whole this whole thing.

984
00:58:33,519 --> 00:58:36,559
And you know, all those years later, she starts building

985
00:58:36,639 --> 00:58:41,920
this case based entirely on circumstantial evidence and rumors and innuendo,

986
00:58:42,559 --> 00:58:44,400
and then that takes on a life of its own

987
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:47,760
when the authorities get involved and start getting these people

988
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:51,440
in a room again, a room in a hotel. It

989
00:58:51,599 --> 00:58:53,199
is a hotel, but it's something I don't want to

990
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,119
conjure up, something fancy. It certainly wasn't anything fancy. But

991
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,920
why why why why? I mean, wouldn't you want to

992
00:59:00,159 --> 00:59:02,000
I mean, how basic is it to take someone to

993
00:59:02,079 --> 00:59:04,159
the police station and do it there?

994
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,559
Speaker 1: But hotel interviews are really at the bottom of the

995
00:59:08,679 --> 00:59:11,599
list when it comes to the issues with this case.

996
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:17,239
Speaker 18: It's really heartbreaking, not just because of what happened to Quincy,

997
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,679
who got the worst of it, because he got life

998
00:59:19,719 --> 00:59:21,960
without parole and he's been in for almost a quarter

999
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,480
of a century, but what happened to these other people,

1000
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,719
you know, the ones who were forced to testify, or

1001
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,639
the ones who just got caught up in it because

1002
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:36,280
of Susan. I mean, Jeff Burton, you know who's a

1003
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,559
white kid who got caught.

1004
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:39,719
Speaker 7: Up in this.

1005
00:59:40,599 --> 00:59:44,159
Speaker 18: He never met Quincy. You know, he doesn't know anything

1006
00:59:44,239 --> 00:59:47,599
about this. He didn't you know, he wasn't a troubled kid.

1007
00:59:48,239 --> 00:59:49,079
Speaker 7: He was a good kid.

1008
00:59:49,159 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 18: He was a young father making his way. But when

1009
00:59:54,199 --> 00:59:58,239
when Susan became convinced that there was a couple of

1010
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,760
white people involved. Just went searching for some white people

1011
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:05,159
that she could sort of rope into this thing, and

1012
01:00:06,079 --> 01:00:08,079
she found out that there was a couple of parties

1013
01:00:08,119 --> 01:00:11,360
in Mayfield. One of the knights in question, she found

1014
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:12,960
out he was at one of the parties, and that

1015
01:00:13,079 --> 01:00:17,440
was good enough. And so literally he knows nothing about this,

1016
01:00:17,559 --> 01:00:21,440
and he ended up serving, you know, many years in

1017
01:00:21,519 --> 01:00:25,320
prison and still suffering to this day. And the ripple

1018
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:28,559
effect of all of this, how it hurts the community

1019
01:00:29,079 --> 01:00:33,960
taking him, just to take Jeffrey alone, leaving aside, you know,

1020
01:00:34,239 --> 01:00:37,440
so many of the other people who were wrongly targeted

1021
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:45,320
and ultimately so badly hurt, you know, Venichea Victoria, Jeff Burton,

1022
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:50,159
we talked about Tamera Caldwell. Each one of those people

1023
01:00:50,239 --> 01:00:52,960
has people that love them. Some of them had children

1024
01:00:53,239 --> 01:00:56,840
that they left behind. All of them have scars that

1025
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:03,079
don't easily heal, you know, from this horrific experience of

1026
01:01:03,239 --> 01:01:06,519
being betrayed by people who their taxes go to pay

1027
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:12,639
in service of somebody who skated.

1028
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:17,119
Speaker 1: Quincy was convicted in two thousand and eight. He lost

1029
01:01:17,199 --> 01:01:21,440
his first appeals by twosand and ten after three more

1030
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:25,760
attempts to get his case revisited. He was denied for

1031
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,719
several years now. Jason, his team at Lava for Good

1032
01:01:29,159 --> 01:01:31,559
and the Innocence Project had been pulling out all the

1033
01:01:31,599 --> 01:01:32,800
stops trying to free him.

1034
01:01:33,519 --> 01:01:38,239
Speaker 18: I called Joe Kerrn. I spoke to David Cross, the

1035
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:42,760
dads of the victim, and the wrong for convicted man.

1036
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,840
I believe he's wrongful convicted again. Listen, make your own judgment.

1037
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:50,880
And I said, I got to help. And one of

1038
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,000
the things I've done over the years is tried to

1039
01:01:53,039 --> 01:01:57,480
appeal to governors and even presidents for clemency in situations

1040
01:01:57,519 --> 01:02:01,360
where I know wrong has been done. It's a it's

1041
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,440
a power that's vested in these people because they are

1042
01:02:04,559 --> 01:02:08,280
the last, you know, stop gap in the system that

1043
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,440
gets it wrong far too often. You know, there's a

1044
01:02:10,559 --> 01:02:13,079
great saying from the English jurist William Blackstone who said,

1045
01:02:13,079 --> 01:02:14,920
it's better the ten guilty men go free than that

1046
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,400
what innocent should suffer. And so in this case, I thought,

1047
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,199
let me try to reach out to the governor, you know,

1048
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,320
because this this has got to change. And when you've

1049
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:25,280
got the victim's father advocating for the guy who's wrongly convicted.

1050
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,119
That's powerful. You know, that should go a long way.

1051
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,800
I feel connected to Kentucky. You know, my my wife's

1052
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,119
father is Muhammad Ali, so you know he's a Louisville

1053
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,360
So I reached out. I didn't know. I don't know

1054
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,079
the governor. I met him only once, actually at the

1055
01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:45,320
Ali Center in Louisville, but only four minutes. But I

1056
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:47,480
didn't know him back then. I'd never met him. But

1057
01:02:47,559 --> 01:02:49,360
I was able to get somebody in a position of

1058
01:02:49,719 --> 01:02:54,360
significant power and influence in the highest levels of government.

1059
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:58,519
I won't name names on the phone, and I figured

1060
01:02:58,519 --> 01:03:00,920
it'll give me three or four minutes just to I

1061
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:02,719
don't want to say humor me, because there's nothing funny

1062
01:03:02,719 --> 01:03:07,360
about it, but to you know, placate me. And I

1063
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,440
ended up speaking to this person for twenty six minutes.

1064
01:03:11,599 --> 01:03:13,079
I remember that because I remember looking at my phone

1065
01:03:13,119 --> 01:03:15,440
and going damn. That was a long conversation. And he

1066
01:03:15,639 --> 01:03:18,599
was like, oh my god, this is the craziest case.

1067
01:03:18,679 --> 01:03:21,920
And you know Mayfield, Kentucky, there was a tornado there recently,

1068
01:03:22,079 --> 01:03:24,360
and you know, you know the mayor, and you know

1069
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,159
we're going to get involved like this this is got

1070
01:03:26,199 --> 01:03:28,480
you know. He was like he was almost breathless. And

1071
01:03:28,599 --> 01:03:30,239
I've never had a conversation with a person in a

1072
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:32,679
position like that. I've had a lot of conversations, but

1073
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:36,280
never was somebody who's like so enthused to get involved

1074
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,880
and help. Usually it's very, you know, monotonal, you know,

1075
01:03:41,679 --> 01:03:47,159
relatively Kurt. And then he called me back that night

1076
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:51,320
at home, kids running around making noise in the background.

1077
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:52,719
He's like, I just want to make sure I got

1078
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:54,320
this straight, and he's going through details of the things.

1079
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,079
I'm like, oh my god, I called mister Cross. I'm like,

1080
01:03:57,880 --> 01:03:59,519
I think we're going to get somewhere with this. This

1081
01:03:59,599 --> 01:04:00,880
is I mean, I hate to say that, because you

1082
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:02,800
never want to raise expectations. Well, I was like, this

1083
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:07,880
is unbelievable. It really seems like they're really interested in

1084
01:04:08,039 --> 01:04:13,239
this injustice. And then he ghoested me, never heard back again,

1085
01:04:14,079 --> 01:04:18,039
tried reaching out, and I'm the farthest thing from a

1086
01:04:18,079 --> 01:04:27,320
conspiracy person. But one might speculate that perhaps he was

1087
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:32,400
excitedly talking to somebody else, I don't know who, who

1088
01:04:32,519 --> 01:04:36,159
said to him, back off, leave that one alone.

1089
01:04:37,199 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: Victoria Caldwell has flipped back and forth over the years,

1090
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,480
recanting her statements and then turning around and saying that

1091
01:04:44,559 --> 01:04:49,119
she was actually telling the truth. Jason's team uncovered emails

1092
01:04:49,199 --> 01:04:52,639
between Susan Golbroth and Tom Mangold from all the way

1093
01:04:52,719 --> 01:04:55,920
back in twenty twelve, where Tom wrote that there's a

1094
01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:00,679
quote teeny weeny, it'sy bitsy chance we've got this whole

1095
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:05,239
fucking murder story wrong in public, though he doesn't want

1096
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,719
to talk about the case. After the Kentucky Innocence Project

1097
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,760
got involved, CNN covered their progress. They reached out to

1098
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,559
Tom for comment and he said, quote, if your project

1099
01:05:16,559 --> 01:05:19,039
does any attempt or reference to the fact that Quincy

1100
01:05:19,159 --> 01:05:22,199
Cross and all the others who were convicted of Jesse's

1101
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,480
murder might be innocent, and I want nothing to do

1102
01:05:25,599 --> 01:05:28,880
with it. If it's anything else, I'd be pleased to help.

1103
01:05:29,639 --> 01:05:32,239
Speaker 18: Quincy is still in prison. I spoke to him today. Actually,

1104
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:36,400
he's excited that we're today as we're recording, not today

1105
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,880
as anyone's listening, as people listen whenever they listen. But yes,

1106
01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:42,760
I spoke to him today. I've spoken to him many times.

1107
01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:49,199
He's relentlessly optimistic. He's not bitter. He really just wants

1108
01:05:49,239 --> 01:05:51,719
his story to be heard, and he wants justice. Not

1109
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:54,920
just for himself, but for Jessica and for the others.

1110
01:05:55,679 --> 01:05:58,480
I've interviewed hundreds of people on the Wrongful Conviction podcasts

1111
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,199
who've been either you know, who are either on death

1112
01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:03,960
row or they're in prison for life, or they've been

1113
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:09,000
they've been freed after serving ten twenty forty four years

1114
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:12,960
more forty eight years like Lynn Simmons in prison, and

1115
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:21,800
every one of them is, you know, optimistic, thoughtful, even,

1116
01:06:22,199 --> 01:06:25,559
I mean, they exude this sort of grace, you know,

1117
01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:30,519
and it's just mystifying and inspiring to hear them, and

1118
01:06:30,639 --> 01:06:33,880
it puts it puts gratitude in my attitude and puts

1119
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,239
any other problems that we all have in perspective. There's

1120
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:41,239
still some legal remedy. I'm trying to remember what it is,

1121
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,920
but he does have Yes, he does have some court

1122
01:06:45,119 --> 01:06:50,639
proceedings still to come. There's some discovery being done, so

1123
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:56,800
follow along, and I believe that there's still a strong chance.

1124
01:06:57,599 --> 01:06:59,480
I have to cling to that belief that he can

1125
01:06:59,559 --> 01:07:07,320
be exonerated in court. But the other last option is

1126
01:07:07,599 --> 01:07:10,920
if that's what it takes, then I hope that the governor,

1127
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,679
this governor, the next governor will take a hard look

1128
01:07:15,119 --> 01:07:19,519
at this case and see what now is clear to

1129
01:07:19,559 --> 01:07:21,440
anybody who takes a serious look at it, which is

1130
01:07:21,519 --> 01:07:23,400
that the wrong guy's in prison, and he's been in

1131
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:24,599
for a very long time.

1132
01:07:25,719 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 1: For Jessica's parents, the system's failures have a different cost.

1133
01:07:30,519 --> 01:07:35,079
The paperwork, the headlines, the atlas retellings, none of it

1134
01:07:35,239 --> 01:07:36,800
brings their daughter back.

1135
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,679
Speaker 9: When they tell you, you know, well, something good to

1136
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,920
come out of this, and things are getting better with time, and.

1137
01:07:45,559 --> 01:07:46,599
Speaker 7: You get ask my wife, and.

1138
01:07:46,639 --> 01:07:49,679
Speaker 9: It's just like it happened the last weeks.

1139
01:07:50,039 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 21: It don't get better. You learn to live with it,

1140
01:07:53,039 --> 01:07:56,079
but it never gets better. We're going to miss her

1141
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,239
until the day we're gone, no doubt about it, and.

1142
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 9: So will everybody else in our family, because she had

1143
01:08:03,119 --> 01:08:06,920
that big of an impact on all of us, and

1144
01:08:07,039 --> 01:08:08,400
I would say most of her friends.

1145
01:08:09,639 --> 01:08:12,159
Speaker 7: She was just that kind of person.

1146
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:17,359
Speaker 1: The fire that took Jessica Kurrn's life never really stopped burning.

1147
01:08:18,399 --> 01:08:23,800
Susan Gobrieth reignited the sparks, maybe hoping the flames would

1148
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:28,479
clear the debris and reveal the truth, or maybe to

1149
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:33,239
burn away evidence that pointed towards Jeremy Adams. In the end,

1150
01:08:34,119 --> 01:08:39,720
those flames weren't a tool of justice. They were chaotic, aimless,

1151
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:46,720
driven by something other than truth, and they eventually consumed

1152
01:08:46,760 --> 01:09:25,279
everything in their path. That's gonna do it for this

1153
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:28,439
episode and this year. Thank you so much for joining us.

1154
01:09:29,199 --> 01:09:31,920
We'll be back after a short break.

1155
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 12: Bye.

1156
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:12,640
Speaker 20: What's up, my man?

1157
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:14,159
Speaker 12: This is Ken Tennessee.

1158
01:10:15,319 --> 01:10:15,560
Speaker 7: Listen.

1159
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,199
Speaker 20: First thing I gotta say he's got as a law

1160
01:10:18,239 --> 01:10:21,920
enforcement officer. It's truly makes my blood boiled sometimes when

1161
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:24,520
you say that you don't and people on your show

1162
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,479
should not talk to cops. As much of an advocate

1163
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:31,399
as you are for the victims that you portray that

1164
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:33,760
are let on your show, you're saying don't.

1165
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 11: Talk to the cops.

1166
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:36,239
Speaker 12: Totally pass accurate to me.

1167
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:39,680
Speaker 20: But nonetheless, I gotta say I was one of those

1168
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,439
guys who never liked podcasts. I thought they were for.

1169
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:45,039
Speaker 12: Weird people who had no good days of music. But

1170
01:10:45,119 --> 01:10:48,560
when I was introduced to your show, I gotta say

1171
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,640
I was into the Obviously, I drive a lot with

1172
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:54,000
my job, so when somebody gets to my car they

1173
01:10:54,079 --> 01:10:56,880
hear what's on the radio, it looks like it are

1174
01:10:56,920 --> 01:10:59,920
pretty astamping. So from your law enforcement.

1175
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,399
Speaker 20: Fan base, I say to you, stay safe and keep

1176
01:11:02,479 --> 01:11:03,520
up to good work my dude.

1177
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:11,359
Speaker 12: Thanks m HM.