Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen?
Speaker 2: What? What's going to happen?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: Help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
Speaker 1: This episode, we got a very special guest, somebody I
Speaker 1: happened to come across organically on mute on Instagram. I
Speaker 1: was slipping through and I happened to see a real
Speaker 1: or a story that I thought was rather kind of
Speaker 1: weird and funny. So I went and followed in and
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, she's a witch as well. So
Speaker 1: I had to check out her account and she had
Speaker 1: a lot of things that piqued my interest. She's got books,
Speaker 1: and she's into magic, and she's into shadow work and
Speaker 1: I just found out she's into chaos magic too, so
Speaker 1: even better. So I want to introduce it. Mandy, Mandy,
Speaker 1: what is going on? How are you?
Speaker 2: And please let everybody know what your deal is.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 3: I'm Mandy. Thank you so much for having me Nick,
Speaker 3: It's like such an honor. I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker 3: My name is Mandy m I'm an author, and yeah,
Speaker 3: I like magic. I'm a psychology nerd, so I like,
Speaker 3: you know, psychology magic things nice.
Speaker 2: Nice though.
Speaker 1: I kind of got that from you as well, from
Speaker 1: your account, So that was another thing that interested me.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: So I guess, you know, normally for every guest that
Speaker 1: I get on that is into the occult. I know
Speaker 1: it's kind of like it's repetitive, but I do like
Speaker 1: to ask them all at the beginning, like what was
Speaker 1: it that?
Speaker 2: How did you end up getting into this stuff?
Speaker 3: Man? It's so weird. I feel like, well, I mean,
Speaker 3: first of all, I think, just to like rewind a
Speaker 3: little bit, I think all humans in general are meant
Speaker 3: to be have a spiritual dimension of life, and we
Speaker 3: live in like a really fucking weird point in time
Speaker 3: where that is kind of like shit on a little bit.
Speaker 3: But I feel like, you know, just naturally, as kids,
Speaker 3: you know, were drawn towards spiritual things, witchy things, making,
Speaker 3: you know, doing things that are symbolic of other things.
Speaker 3: And so ever, since I was a little kid, I
Speaker 3: was really attracted to that sort of stuff, into like
Speaker 3: the witchy end of things. And I dabbled a little
Speaker 3: bit when I was a teenager, but I at that time,
Speaker 3: like the only kind of frame of reference I had
Speaker 3: was like Wika, and I was like, this is definitely
Speaker 3: not for me. I'm like not a rules based person.
Speaker 3: I'm not a person who like, if I don't vibe
Speaker 3: with something, if I don't fuck with something, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to do it. So then you just end up thinking, well,
Speaker 3: I'm bad at this and moving on with your life.
Speaker 3: And then as I got older, I kind of got
Speaker 3: into When I was going to school getting my psychology degree,
Speaker 3: I was really interested in like anthropology, like spirituality and
Speaker 3: other cultures and things like that, which kind of led
Speaker 3: me to a place of where I am now, which
Speaker 3: is very much I look at like psychology and spirituality
Speaker 3: is kind of like two sides of the same and
Speaker 3: different ways to interpret life. And I kind of ended
Speaker 3: up making my own mish mash of you know whatever,
Speaker 3: and here I am.
Speaker 2: That's awesome.
Speaker 1: Uh So, like when uh, I did notice one thing
Speaker 1: on your channel, and I think it's kind of like
Speaker 1: when you focus on too a lot? Is uh you
Speaker 1: mentioned shadow work earlier, like you have like you know,
Speaker 1: it goes healing for hot messes. Yeah, so like did
Speaker 1: you kind of like focus on like you know, I
Speaker 1: guess you know, people in the witchcraft or the eco
Speaker 1: community actually like getting their heads straight and working on themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I mean for me personally, practicing like is
Speaker 3: very much in my own practice, very much about trying
Speaker 3: to get my mental health right. So my personal history is,
Speaker 3: you know, I was a teenage run away. I got
Speaker 3: into a lot of shit, and self destruction was like
Speaker 3: pretty much my passion, and so I ended up going
Speaker 3: through a lot of issues with mental health and with
Speaker 3: really just like being my own uh you know, big op, right,
Speaker 3: And so I kind of ended up in a place
Speaker 3: where I ended up getting a degree in psychology just
Speaker 3: in like an attempt to figure out more about myself.
Speaker 3: And then it kind of led to synthesizing that with
Speaker 3: spirituality in order to just get my mind right. So
Speaker 3: I don't do deity work or anything like that. I
Speaker 3: wouldn't say I'm full psychological model. I think there's a
Speaker 3: bit of the spirit model there as well, but I
Speaker 3: will say that for me, it's very much about just
Speaker 3: trying to not lose my shit, like not go insane.
Speaker 3: And so I think that that's why a lot of
Speaker 3: people that kind of identifies more like misfit style witches
Speaker 3: end up in my sphere because I believe we can
Speaker 3: lead with our messiness, right, like if we all just
Speaker 3: accept who we are kind of start from there instead
Speaker 3: of trying to outrun it, then we'll be ahead.
Speaker 2: I like it. I like it.
Speaker 1: I even think doing all that is part of the
Speaker 1: great work or that's part of like magic anyway, that's
Speaker 1: my opinion.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Now, like what kind of like when it comes to
Speaker 1: your like daily practice, just for the listeners to get
Speaker 1: an idea. That's something I've been trying to ask other
Speaker 1: people too well, Like what would be like a typical
Speaker 1: daily I guess daily which which the stuff you do?
Speaker 1: Like do you have stuff like that? You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, like meditation or anything like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So I feel like my my practice is
Speaker 3: very not dazzling or instagram kind of aesthetic, but I
Speaker 3: think a lot of people that are deep in it
Speaker 3: kind of get to that space. So for me, it's
Speaker 3: a lot about empowerment and understanding, like if you set
Speaker 3: an intention, try to like really lead with that. I
Speaker 3: love doing like energy kind of stuff, energy work, energetics,
Speaker 3: try and like sort of go through life with that
Speaker 3: as a bit of a focus. Really understanding that the
Speaker 3: energy that I have is going to be the energy
Speaker 3: that I put out in the world and also what
Speaker 3: I received back. But for me, in terms of like spells, rituals,
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff like energy work and then baths off.
Speaker 3: Like I'm obsessed with bath magic.
Speaker 2: I noticed that. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Fuck, it just kills two birds with one stone. It's
Speaker 3: just so easy. You can, like, you can do protection
Speaker 3: stuff in there, you can do glamour stuff in there.
Speaker 3: You can do just like general you know, reflection, shadow
Speaker 3: work type stuff there. So for me, I'm just and
Speaker 3: it's the only time when my kids aren't gonna fucking
Speaker 3: bug me. So I'm like, it's just like beautiful for that.
Speaker 1: That's funny. You get away from the kids at the
Speaker 1: same time, that's awesome. Well at least like you know that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like you said, they will leave you alone while you're
Speaker 1: in there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, which it's it's like hard to get you know,
Speaker 3: it's hard to run kids sometimes, but if you're like
Speaker 3: I'm meditating, they don't give a shot.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah I noticed, Yeah, I noticed.
Speaker 1: I think I had posted something about bath magic and
Speaker 1: candle magic, because you're you're in the candle magic as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I do bath magic. I do candle magic. I
Speaker 3: like doing like some written stuff. I do a lot
Speaker 3: of work with like narrative, like personal narrative because you know,
Speaker 3: because I kind of vibe with like the whole chaos
Speaker 3: magic perspective. I think the stories we tell ourselves really
Speaker 3: become our reality. And I have lived a different reality
Speaker 3: than I have now. Like if you could go back
Speaker 3: ten years and be like you're gonna write a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of books and you're gonna actually be on podcasts
Speaker 3: and things like that, I would have been like, shut up, no,
Speaker 3: there's no fucking way. And so I like to do
Speaker 3: a lot of that kind of stuff as well, like
Speaker 3: just like journaling type stuff, but like deep deep diving
Speaker 3: into like the shadow stuff and the narrative, right, like
Speaker 3: what reality am I living? What am I speaking? Into existence?
Speaker 1: Not to start like putting you on the spots, just
Speaker 1: I want to the listeners to get an idea.
Speaker 2: Just like what it entails for you. I can even
Speaker 2: go on for myself.
Speaker 1: Like for me, I never really did I guess bath magic,
Speaker 1: but whenever I would do a ritual, I would.
Speaker 2: Always do a goy, what are those things cool?
Speaker 1: I take a bath? A ritual bath, I guess I
Speaker 1: And I would sometimes like include incense or so to
Speaker 1: believe it or not, Sometimes it sounds crazy. I would
Speaker 1: get cheese cloth and make some sort of like kind
Speaker 1: of like sachet out of stuff and then like hang
Speaker 1: it like around the thing and kind of let the
Speaker 1: hot water, almost making a tea bag really, And sometimes
Speaker 1: I would do that with the water. Sometimes I would
Speaker 1: include crystals or candles, you know, when I would just
Speaker 1: kind of like sit there and kind of meditate like
Speaker 1: on like is this what I want to do? Like
Speaker 1: my intention is the reasons why I'm doing this? What
Speaker 1: is it like for you when you go when you
Speaker 1: happen to do your bath magic?
Speaker 3: Pretty much the same as everything you just said there,
Speaker 3: Like it's like setting the whole place up. I think
Speaker 3: the vibe of the space is really important because if
Speaker 3: you're looking at it as like a how do you say,
Speaker 3: like a transformational vessel, like going in as one way
Speaker 3: and then coming out as another, you have to kind
Speaker 3: of set up sacred space. So for me, music super important,
Speaker 3: Like if there's music that will get my energy into
Speaker 3: a certain place. I really like cybient music because then
Speaker 3: kind of like chill, but it's also like a little
Speaker 3: bit you know, you can feel it in your body.
Speaker 3: Using I do like a lot of basalt mixtures and
Speaker 3: like herbalism with that sort of stuff I love. I
Speaker 3: actually at one point there's an account called Silly Witch
Speaker 3: Herbals and that's me because I was going to start
Speaker 3: like a bath thing and then I looked into the
Speaker 3: like logistics of it and I was like, I don't
Speaker 3: know about this, but I really like making basalt mixtures
Speaker 3: using different rbs that are you have correspondences with whatever
Speaker 3: it is I'm trying to achieve. And then also mirror work.
Speaker 3: I think mirror work is really important, so which uh,
Speaker 3: you know, you feel silly doing it, but it can
Speaker 3: be really transformational for self esteem, which is something I
Speaker 3: struggled with for a really long time. So I like,
Speaker 3: I love doing mirror work. Then having a.
Speaker 2: Bath what does if you don't want me to ask you,
Speaker 2: I've never heard of the mirror work before.
Speaker 3: So there's a few different ways to do mirror work
Speaker 3: for me. Sometimes it's just like a dialogue with the mirror.
Speaker 3: But often, like for example, if you struggle with self
Speaker 3: self esteem or lack of self confidence, which like really
Speaker 3: plagued my life for a lot of my life and
Speaker 3: is why I was so self destructive even looking in
Speaker 3: the mirror to get dressed in the morning is like
Speaker 3: you kind of look away, like you're just like, I
Speaker 3: don't want to. So it's what it is is really
Speaker 3: kind of forming a relationship with yourself by spending time
Speaker 3: gazing at yourself, giving your self affirmations or different sort
Speaker 3: of words. You can do like dance kind of stuff,
Speaker 3: but I try and get to a place of trance
Speaker 3: with it before doing bath rituals because then it helps
Speaker 3: anger that stuff in a little better.
Speaker 2: That is really cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you feel stupid doing it at first, but
Speaker 3: the more you do it, the more that energy bleeds
Speaker 3: out into your like regular everyday life, Like low self
Speaker 3: esteem was my biggest life problem, like until I kind
Speaker 3: of started doing that work. And it's actually it's crazy
Speaker 3: to me how fast it can shift things if you
Speaker 3: really are dedicated with it.
Speaker 1: It's funny how you're like, it may sound silly. It
Speaker 1: probably took me like two months to finally do a
Speaker 1: ritual when I was like, all right, I'm going to
Speaker 1: do it, but it's just like, am I really going
Speaker 1: to stand up and start saying all this ship and
Speaker 1: making this circle?
Speaker 2: You know, you're like, wow, am I really gonna do this?
Speaker 2: One day I was like fuck it, let's do it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well it's kind of like I feel like we have
Speaker 3: this like level of embarrassment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like my whole block was gonna see me, even
Speaker 1: though I was inside my house.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so then you're like embarrassed and ashamed when it's like, bitch,
Speaker 3: it's just you, like you get out of your own
Speaker 3: head for five.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: My cat don't care as long as I feed it
Speaker 1: empty a little box. Like you know, you don't give
Speaker 1: a fuck when I'm doing either.
Speaker 3: Yeah, You're like doing your your rituals and there's spider
Speaker 3: in the corners like you're doing a good job.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but yeah, I know that's so funny how like, uh,
Speaker 1: I think that happens to a lot of us.
Speaker 2: Uh, I don't know, like feeling silly and.
Speaker 1: Then it'll hold you back from doing something that actually
Speaker 1: can really help you, Like a.
Speaker 3: Really good baby step to deprogramming in that way is
Speaker 3: do the fucking read nobody's gonna see you.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: Now when you mentioned candle magic too, I know for me,
Speaker 1: if I would do candle magic, sometimes I would get
Speaker 1: even like a color that was like appropriate for whatever
Speaker 1: I was trying to work with or I would like
Speaker 1: throw sigils on there and like oils or you did
Speaker 1: all that too, and like herbs and shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I gotta be careful with candle magic though, because
Speaker 3: I'm kind of like a fire hazard. I've got like
Speaker 3: a scorching case of ADHD. So if I put herbs
Speaker 3: and shit, I have to put it in the base.
Speaker 3: I usually do a base of salt and herbs and
Speaker 3: then oils and stuff on the candle with the sigel,
Speaker 3: But then I have to put it like a big
Speaker 3: base just in case it falls over, because it wouldn't
Speaker 3: be unheard of with me.
Speaker 2: Have you used oils in your bath?
Speaker 3: Yes? Yeah, well usually when I do basalts, you mix
Speaker 3: the oils and stuff in there, mix in and do
Speaker 3: the whole thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It used to use a pink Kimlain. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One thing I will tell you I was stupid enough
Speaker 1: to do it to myself and are really bad. There
Speaker 1: was parts of my body I did not know what burn.
Speaker 1: Don't put cinnamon oil in the end.
Speaker 2: Of the water.
Speaker 1: No, yeah, I use I use that for Friday because
Speaker 1: I was like, oh you know it clothes with venus
Speaker 1: and love.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was whoa there you go.
Speaker 2: There was no loving for me that day.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that one refreshing in the worst way.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I remember telling somebody else that I was like,
Speaker 1: just so it doesn't happen to you.
Speaker 2: I don't, I don't know. I just didn't think about it,
Speaker 2: like I guess, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, so yeah you did the candles, uh,
Speaker 1: the mirror stuff in the meditating.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember everything that you had said.
Speaker 3: I mean, it kind of depends on what you're doing, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: Some like full moons are really good for I call
Speaker 3: them like bathing in reflection rituals where you set yourself
Speaker 3: up and then you kind of just think it because
Speaker 3: we often are always going to the next thing, and
Speaker 3: I think it's really important sometime to take stock of
Speaker 3: like where you're at, you've been, how you got there,
Speaker 3: and if you're chasing the same if you really want
Speaker 3: the same things you're chasing, right, we often don't stop
Speaker 3: and take like inventory. So that's a type of bath
Speaker 3: that I do that would be different than say a
Speaker 3: shadow work bath, which might be it's still very reflective,
Speaker 3: but like with an intended kind of focal point or purpose.
Speaker 3: And then if you're doing that versus say like a
Speaker 3: protection bath or like a glamour bath. Those are going
Speaker 3: to look a lot different, and there's different things you
Speaker 3: can use. Like for example, I actually have like I had.
Speaker 3: I don't think I have it up anymore, but I
Speaker 3: had two bath magic courses that I did because I'm
Speaker 3: literally so obsessed with this stuff. But if you wanted
Speaker 3: to use the bath for scrying, if you use like
Speaker 3: I may, if you make a milk mixture with like
Speaker 3: powdered milk, oils, herbs, it will leave like a film
Speaker 3: on the water that you can use for divination or scrying.
Speaker 3: So there's you can do literally anything in the bath.
Speaker 3: It's like wild.
Speaker 2: Nice, Oh yeah, would you do? Uh?
Speaker 1: I guess like if you do a candle magic and
Speaker 1: stuff sometimes like would you do you ever tie stuff
Speaker 1: to like elements of planetary stuff or are you not
Speaker 1: like into that that type?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Actually I have Koshi chimes up here. It's like
Speaker 3: a sound healing thing and they're in uh, they're in
Speaker 3: the four elements. So there's so many different things you
Speaker 3: can do with the elements. I do find For me,
Speaker 3: usually what I'm I'm kind of needing is the more
Speaker 3: grounding energy like that that earth energy. I feel like
Speaker 3: there's too much. I get too emotional, so I don't
Speaker 3: usually fuck with water too much. But uh, but definitely
Speaker 3: if I'm trying to do something with like creativity, I'll
Speaker 3: work with air. So yeah.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess like now for you on candle magic,
Speaker 1: if you were I guess working with the elemental, would
Speaker 1: that decide what calor candle you're gonna use?
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it would depend. I try and like
Speaker 3: stack my spells and ritual It'll be like use this color,
Speaker 3: this herb, this element, this archetype is something. So like
Speaker 3: I try and like get as much potency as I
Speaker 3: can by stacking those different elements because I do my
Speaker 3: spells intuitively. So it's like, if I'm going for this,
Speaker 3: you know, what are the different themes and elements that
Speaker 3: I can add to it? And that's like something that
Speaker 3: I think, again, we naturally do since we're kids, right,
Speaker 3: like if we're hoping to have something, even if we're
Speaker 3: you know, you're twelve years old and you're hoping for
Speaker 3: the boy you like to like you back, you know,
Speaker 3: making a little older like little you know, there's these
Speaker 3: weird things that we kind of intuitively do and we
Speaker 3: don't really think of as magic until you get older
Speaker 3: and then you fuck with magic and you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: that's what I was doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, and that's too far from the same thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have an altar? Do you use an ultra space you?
Speaker 3: I have my dresser, which OK, yeah, oh.
Speaker 2: I know so many I know so many women use that,
Speaker 2: though I don't think that's but.
Speaker 3: It's like mine is oh my god, it's just covered
Speaker 3: in it's finny because my husband's dressers right beside mine,
Speaker 3: and he's like a neat freaking so it's like mine
Speaker 3: is this like crazy, and then it's it's like so nice.
Speaker 2: Just look at it, like oh my god.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's like, but yeah, that's like my altar. But
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say I do a ton of work at
Speaker 3: that altar unless it's like very basic. I'm lucky someone
Speaker 3: made me a little clay figuring of me holding like
Speaker 3: a crystal mushroom, and I use that for like self
Speaker 3: love work because it's like a little mean soul like
Speaker 3: put herbs and like things on it.
Speaker 2: Nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because uh, yeah, there's something I was going
Speaker 1: to ask. I guess you can kind of set it yourself,
Speaker 1: like I know for me, like I've I've mentioned before
Speaker 1: to other people, and I do, uh, I try to
Speaker 1: get others to see, you know, I guess other people
Speaker 1: who do it to say it themselves.
Speaker 2: Some people don't think I was like.
Speaker 1: Extra with the shit, but like it would be common
Speaker 1: sometimes for people, depending I guess on how in depth
Speaker 1: they want the ritual to be, Like they could use
Speaker 1: a candle, then they could also use herbs for something
Speaker 1: than the crystal. See, I would gray, I would bring
Speaker 1: all that stuff. I would have like herbs or an incense.
Speaker 1: I would match what I'm trying to do and have
Speaker 1: the crystal that kind of goes along with what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do. Maybe a sigil as well, if I
Speaker 1: was getting into like a little bit of chaos magic in.
Speaker 2: The Yes, good is a big thing for you. Sorry,
Speaker 2: sigil is a big thing for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Because I also like doing a lot of
Speaker 3: like artistic based magic and so actually I ran a
Speaker 3: membership last year and one of the one of the
Speaker 3: cool things we did that I loved is I ran
Speaker 3: a session on hemispheric painting, so basically painting with your
Speaker 3: non dominant creating something with your non dominant hand, and
Speaker 3: we made it into a like we sigilized it, and
Speaker 3: so then we went over with our dominant hand to
Speaker 3: make the unconscious conscious. It was a very cool session
Speaker 3: that I loved. But there's so many, so many interesting
Speaker 3: ways that you can work with with with sigils.
Speaker 1: Well, in my experience, I've heard of people using their
Speaker 1: un dominant hand a lot occultism and magic.
Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, yeah, it's it's I think it's it's just
Speaker 3: even just as a symbolic representation. It's really cool, and
Speaker 3: it does engage different parts of your brain.
Speaker 1: So that's exactly why I've heard it suggested, Yes, that
Speaker 1: it engage at different points.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why. I also think it's important to speak
Speaker 3: aloud your intentions. Speak aloud while you're doing your spells.
Speaker 3: Speak aloud, yeah, your intention before you do something, because
Speaker 3: your brain processes things like if you're thinking things, if
Speaker 3: you're doing things, if you're saying things and processing hearing
Speaker 3: the things. It's all different parts of your brain working together.
Speaker 3: And because I think the brain is kind of a
Speaker 3: magical tool in a way, why not, you know, make
Speaker 3: the best of it.
Speaker 1: I agree, are so well kind of get into a
Speaker 1: little bit of the chaos magic, which is why I
Speaker 1: brought up I guess the sigils. Wow, what would you
Speaker 1: how would you describe chaos.
Speaker 2: Magic for you? What is it?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: What is chaos magic?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, for me, it's the fact that it's
Speaker 3: very much fixated and focused around my mental state, around
Speaker 3: my beliefs, and around for me personally. Something that's really
Speaker 3: important is is the fact that, how do you describe
Speaker 3: it trying on different belief systems at different periods of time.
Speaker 3: So for me, I'm like, I'm hard pressed to say
Speaker 3: I am one thing or do one thing. Like it's
Speaker 3: kind of a moving target. And I really like that
Speaker 3: chaos magic actually encourages that sort of thinking and that
Speaker 3: sort of working. So for me, it's kind of like
Speaker 3: a non rules based magical approach that doesn't make me
Speaker 3: fit in a box and do the same ritual five
Speaker 3: hundred times expecting it to work when it just doesn't
Speaker 3: fucking work anymore, so you can like move on to
Speaker 3: something different. So it's I think for me, it's just
Speaker 3: the fact that it's flexible, it doesn't require a lot
Speaker 3: of tools, and it's so so much about me. The
Speaker 3: practitioner me the person, right, and you know, looking at
Speaker 3: spheres of influence and spheres of control like that's really
Speaker 3: like the most immediate thing to me.
Speaker 1: So nice, all right, Yeah, I chaos magic. It's kind
Speaker 1: of popular. I was a little bit into it, kind
Speaker 1: of with the for the scisual work, you know, but
Speaker 1: like I would even think, like I don't know if
Speaker 1: you know this. I used to be in the oto,
Speaker 1: the Ordo Templar Orientus. I was in there for six years,
Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, I do understand, Like I guess, like
Speaker 1: in that order, if they were ever to do their
Speaker 1: own rituals, yeah, there would probably be like there'll be
Speaker 1: certain like the less A banishing ritual, the pentagram, maybe
Speaker 1: the hexagram or the star Ruby, like those things will
Speaker 1: be done there.
Speaker 2: But if they were like.
Speaker 1: Any other time, if the members were like hanging out
Speaker 1: or doing something or maybe even other classes, they'll reference like.
Speaker 2: Other things to use.
Speaker 1: And like I guess in a sense, like I guess
Speaker 1: what I'm getting at is that even in that order,
Speaker 1: you're very able to like pretty much do like or
Speaker 1: pull from wherever you wanted, and they weren't like you
Speaker 1: can't do that, Like you know what I'm saying there
Speaker 1: was somebody else there doing the same thing.
Speaker 2: Probably that you could talk to, you know. So yes,
Speaker 2: I do kind of like that idea. I guess with
Speaker 2: chaos magic.
Speaker 1: That it, uh you really could just like pull from anywhere,
Speaker 1: you know, and it makes sense or like if like
Speaker 1: for me, you know, I'll even try to like make
Speaker 1: sure it matches.
Speaker 2: The same attributes in a sense. But yeah, yeah, I do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's important because I think every single person
Speaker 3: I don't know, I have like such a like full
Speaker 3: body fuck no to like organization and rules, which is
Speaker 3: probably just an internal shadow or something. With me. I
Speaker 3: just I fucking hate it. And when it comes to spirituality,
Speaker 3: it's so uniquely individual. It's going through your filter of
Speaker 3: like your subjective worldview and belief, and so I find
Speaker 3: it really difficult when things say things have to be
Speaker 3: done x Y Z way, or someone claims to have
Speaker 3: all the answers. I'm like, that doesn't make logical sense,
Speaker 3: that makes no sense. Like each person's path is going
Speaker 3: to be to some degree, I think very much heavily
Speaker 3: influenced by what speaks to them, what calls to them,
Speaker 3: and so sometimes it does end up being a space
Speaker 3: of like a mishmash of things that you've picked up
Speaker 3: that really spoke to you for whatever reason, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Like even for me, it's like I just like,
Speaker 1: I guess if I wanted to contact like some sort
Speaker 1: of planetary deity, there's like so many different ways I
Speaker 1: could do. I use the Olympic spirits, I could go
Speaker 1: by the regular planetary elements.
Speaker 2: I could tie it to kabala, you know, and it wouldn't.
Speaker 1: Be like a normal for someone to try to do that,
Speaker 1: but unlike some other orders or other or other ways
Speaker 1: of practices, it would just be like, no, this is
Speaker 1: how you're going to do that kind of yeah, you
Speaker 1: see what you're getting, or like the pantheon, you know,
Speaker 1: I used any pantheon I want, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about chakras? Are you big into chakra work
Speaker 2: at all?
Speaker 3: Yes? But with the with the kind of uh what
Speaker 3: do you call it? Caveat that I not like a
Speaker 3: yoga person or anything like that, but in a lot
Speaker 3: of different cultures and traditions they use energy centers. And
Speaker 3: so for me, just the fact that it's got the
Speaker 3: it's just the easiest to explain. It's the easiest for
Speaker 3: me to think of through that that framework of that system,
Speaker 3: that's why. But it's not necessarily yeah, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, I get it at.
Speaker 3: Version because even I think just the collective weight of
Speaker 3: of how much awareness is on that system, I think
Speaker 3: is also helpful.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was never I mean, I'll be honest.
Speaker 1: I mean I did yoga here and there, but most
Speaker 1: of my whenever I really did, I guess chakra work.
Speaker 1: It was more of a meditative state where I would
Speaker 1: just focus on the chakra and try to like meditate
Speaker 1: on them and see if I could feel.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, just you know these days I feel so
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, it wasn't trained in yoga or any
Speaker 3: of that sort of stuff, So I don't know if
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, okay to use that, But to me,
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, it makes sense. I have the work
Speaker 3: I've done with it with energy work and things like that, meditation, that.
Speaker 2: Sort of I think it's very good for that.
Speaker 3: Reading. Yeah, like reading energy people's energy as well. Is
Speaker 3: that that's it's very it's highly recognizable, it's easy to explain,
Speaker 3: and it just fucking works. So that's like helpful.
Speaker 2: Now that was chakra work, and uh I can't remember
Speaker 2: the name of it. I do think there is some
Speaker 2: sort of phrase where it's like it's a common meditation
Speaker 2: where you like picture like a I guess a white
Speaker 2: light beaming down into your body and like going through it.
Speaker 1: I forget there's some sort of name for the body
Speaker 1: of light something like that. Yeah, I guess between believe
Speaker 1: it not. Between chakra work and that. I was really
Speaker 1: able to sort of kind of like actually feel my
Speaker 1: own body's energy. It's like like seriously like weird. Actually, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: It's crazy. I actually did the Gateway Gateway tapes.
Speaker 2: Oh did you? Oh? I didn't it for.
Speaker 3: Like a year like super frequent too. It was crazy.
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm just gonna fucking really like barrel
Speaker 3: down and do that. And I like did it for
Speaker 3: almost a year solid. That was like the biggest gap
Speaker 3: I had in There was like two weeks between doing them.
Speaker 3: And it's crazy what that does for your same as
Speaker 3: like I have affantasia. I do a lot of visualization
Speaker 3: white light like New Age shit like that, Like I
Speaker 3: do tons of that stuff. But Gateway was I had
Speaker 3: a couple instances where I had closed eye, like closed.
Speaker 2: I you saw stuff with your eyes closed right, but I.
Speaker 3: Saw, like I literally saw shit, and I was like,
Speaker 3: that's fucked. And it was like and it was because
Speaker 3: I was doing Gateway so often and so dedicated.
Speaker 2: That's fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was at some point I started having crazy, crazy,
Speaker 1: magical experiences.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go through all of it bit, but.
Speaker 1: Like it was to the point where it was like
Speaker 1: I closed my eyes and it's like a fucking movie
Speaker 1: would just turn on. Yes, And I didn't find out
Speaker 1: about the Gateway tapes until after the fact. I think
Speaker 1: it was actually because the podcast somebody had mentioned to
Speaker 1: me they wanted to cover the Gateway tapes and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, what's that And I checked it out
Speaker 1: and I was.
Speaker 2: Like oh, I was like, I gotta try these things.
Speaker 2: And I think maybe I got to the I heard
Speaker 2: a fourth one.
Speaker 1: It wasn't even that far in, and the shit already
Speaker 1: started turn it on like real fast, and I was
Speaker 1: like wow, And I already started getting certain it's like
Speaker 1: certain physical feelings that I would get when I really
Speaker 1: started getting out there, and I was like, you know what,
Speaker 1: this is speeding it up a lot faster. So I
Speaker 1: definitely think there is something to do. Like you even
Speaker 1: said you got visuals from it. It kicked that in
Speaker 1: real quick for me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it helps you. I think it helps you
Speaker 3: orient to the energy of your body, just because it
Speaker 3: kind of makes you do the same process over and
Speaker 3: over as it goes in, Like regardless of which which
Speaker 3: tape you're on, you're always doing you know, the basically
Speaker 3: the resonant tuning, which is like, you know, that's like
Speaker 3: sound healing type stuff too, right, So I'm like, that's
Speaker 3: like vocal toning. So like all of that stuff is
Speaker 3: it seems very It's funny how no matter where you
Speaker 3: go in like spirituality and weird shit, I just call
Speaker 3: it weird shit, all that associated stuff that we love.
Speaker 3: It's crazy how it's all kind of the same thing
Speaker 3: over and over in these different forms dressed as different things.
Speaker 3: But it's like the basics just start there.
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of him? He's interesting.
Speaker 1: With this Friday of the Occult Rejects, we're going live
Speaker 1: of Friday Night and we're doing part three of the
Speaker 1: Gateway Project. Have you ever heard of like, uh, that
Speaker 1: that whole situation with the Gateway tapes that the CIA
Speaker 1: puts somebody into the Monroe Institute to check out the system.
Speaker 2: Oh so you know what that you know what that's
Speaker 2: all about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we've actually been reading.
Speaker 2: We've been reading the paperwork and going through.
Speaker 1: Oh yo, I wish we got to get you all
Speaker 1: one day to talk about your experience with the tape.
Speaker 2: If you don't mind, that would be cool. Ship. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 2: but it's funny that wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah if it's like a weird out there thing' that'll
Speaker 3: be my my thing.
Speaker 2: I love your jam. That's your jam is went out
Speaker 2: this ship. That's cool. Yeah, I can't.
Speaker 3: Get enough of it. It's okay. Ever since I was
Speaker 3: a kid, it's like astral travel, lucid dreaming, like all
Speaker 3: of these. Ever since I was like a child, it
Speaker 3: was like that's what I that's that's what we're here
Speaker 3: to figure out?
Speaker 2: Is this ship? Oh right now.
Speaker 1: I even felt like that as a kid though, too,
Speaker 1: like all that weird stuff. It was like, yo, we
Speaker 1: got to figure it. Like, I don't know, I was
Speaker 1: just very intrigued about like how does that happen? How
Speaker 1: does that work?
Speaker 2: Is that right? I don't know. Yeah, there's just.
Speaker 3: Too curious about ordinary reality is boring. It's just not it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's other like weird shit going on that. It's like, like,
Speaker 1: what's up with that? You know, like you said, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's so crazy, but yeah, that's coolest ship that you
Speaker 1: did that. Yeah, we were I think there was like
Speaker 1: a twenty seven page like thing that was released about it,
Speaker 1: and we even going through that and we're finishing.
Speaker 2: It up this week.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's funny that you mentioned that.
Speaker 2: It's really cool. Third, No, why is that based off
Speaker 2: of it or something?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's kind of like a cheesy documentary, but
Speaker 3: it's about it's about the origins of that. Oh it's
Speaker 3: so cool.
Speaker 2: You should just have like how put off in them
Speaker 2: all the cheesy?
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah it was. It was very it had I
Speaker 3: think they talked about like angle swan and all of
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff, but it was really it was
Speaker 3: really interesting. The Yeah, I definitely was like a little
Speaker 3: bit cheesy, but I fucking love I'll.
Speaker 2: Check it out. Yeah nice.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh so you also said you have a you have
Speaker 1: some books. What was what was the first one? What
Speaker 1: what was the first one, and what made you even
Speaker 1: decide to start writing?
Speaker 3: Uh So my first book is called Witchcraft Therapy. I
Speaker 3: haven't write here. It's Witchcraft Therapy. I actually decided to
Speaker 3: write this book because I noticed that, like a lot
Speaker 3: of witchy books are very much about like deity work.
Speaker 3: They're very devotional, and I wanted to write something that
Speaker 3: was more secular and approach and very much focused on
Speaker 3: like empowerment. So this is called Witchcraft Therapy, Your Guide
Speaker 3: to banishing bullshit and invoking your inner power. And it's
Speaker 3: about like confidence self care, Like it's just about kind
Speaker 3: of yeah, centering you the practitioner in order to just
Speaker 3: feel better in life, because we only get one life experience,
Speaker 3: right well, in this configuration, so you might as well
Speaker 3: make the best of it by not letting your bullshit
Speaker 3: hold you back. So yeah, that's my first book was
Speaker 3: Witchcraft Therapy. And then my second book was called Happy
Speaker 3: Witch This one right here, this is more about energetics,
Speaker 3: but it's still very much from like a secular perspective,
Speaker 3: and this is about finding happiness, trying to call in
Speaker 3: more happiness in your life. Then, oh my god, I
Speaker 3: have too many this I'm just going to go on
Speaker 3: and on here. But then I wrote Feral Self Care,
Speaker 3: one hundred Ways to Liberate and Celebrate your messy, wild
Speaker 3: and tame self. So This is kind of like a
Speaker 3: Goblin Core like way of embracing the animal experience of
Speaker 3: being human, because we just put on pants and we
Speaker 3: pretend that we have our shit together, and that's like
Speaker 3: not doing us any favors. And so this is like
Speaker 3: an alternative self care god about you know, getting messy,
Speaker 3: getting out into nature, like reconnecting with the dark, you know,
Speaker 3: just kind of getting out of our heads and into
Speaker 3: our bodies. And then this one is shadow work for
Speaker 3: hot messes. And I wanted to make a really easy,
Speaker 3: accessible shadow work guide because I notice that most shadow
Speaker 3: work books, and I'm not trying to just talk shit,
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to be a hater, a lot of
Speaker 3: shadow work books are just prompts. It's like mostly blank pages,
Speaker 3: and so I wrote this to kind of like demystify it.
Speaker 3: So it's a combination of interactive elements and then also
Speaker 3: written stuff about how to do shadow work, because like
Speaker 3: the two questions that come up the most is like
Speaker 3: how to so for shadow work, how to start and
Speaker 3: then how to integrate, And most of the books are
Speaker 3: about I sorry, I guess I should rewind. I teach
Speaker 3: shadow work in three phases, so investigation or sorry, perception,
Speaker 3: investigation and then integration and a lot of the shadow
Speaker 3: work books that exist folcus on phase two. So the investigation,
Speaker 3: So here's your prompts, but really you have to learn
Speaker 3: how to spot the patterns that are coming up in
Speaker 3: your life and then what to do with that information
Speaker 3: once you have it, so you're not just like circle
Speaker 3: jerking your demons, like, oh, I'm fucked up and you're
Speaker 3: just sitting there thinking how fucked up you are. That's
Speaker 3: like counterproductive. So I tried to write something that would
Speaker 3: address all of those things. And because of my work
Speaker 3: experience and stuff, you know, I used to work in
Speaker 3: community inclusion for developmentally disabled adults. I get into like
Speaker 3: behavior shifts with like the ABC Model of Behavior for
Speaker 3: integration and like that sort of thing. So I tried
Speaker 3: to make it very easy, because shadow work does not
Speaker 3: have to be hard. People are like, oh, shadow work huge,
Speaker 3: We're saying, and I'm like, get the fuck over yourself,
Speaker 3: Like it's just is what it is. We're all human beings,
Speaker 3: we're all here having a limited, imperfect experience. Get over yourself.
Speaker 2: I agree, I agree.
Speaker 1: I think that's actually extremely extremely important for what you're
Speaker 1: magician or whatever.
Speaker 3: Occult is Yeah, in my opinion, yeah, for.
Speaker 2: Sure has when you started this, as it has the
Speaker 2: outlook of this stuff changed for you over the years,
Speaker 2: Like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: It's like that what is it that Alison Wonderland quote
Speaker 3: of like I've believed a million impossible things before breakfast
Speaker 3: or whatever it is. I'm butchering it, but but yeah,
Speaker 3: I think your perspective should change sometimes. I think way
Speaker 3: different things in the morning than I do it, and
Speaker 3: I and stuff when it comes to magic, which is
Speaker 3: why I mean, I think it's hard to define chaos magic.
Speaker 3: But the fact that you can try on a belief
Speaker 3: for a ritual and then you know, try on a different,
Speaker 3: maybe even counter belief at a different time, I think
Speaker 3: that's important. I think that's what's missing in society in general.
Speaker 3: We have such rigid thought systems and belief systems, and
Speaker 3: I think most of us have a lot of perplexing,
Speaker 3: contradictory beliefs even just wrapped up within ourselves, and we
Speaker 3: have to just be okay with that, and then it
Speaker 3: would give us some more open minded perspective on life
Speaker 3: in general.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 1: I agree, you got your working on any of the
Speaker 1: books coming.
Speaker 3: Up well, I'm pitching. I'm pitching a book. So I
Speaker 3: have another book that's coming out, it's a Crystal Guide
Speaker 3: for young adults that's coming out in spring. And I'm
Speaker 3: trying to pitch a book on dreaming. Actually I'm trying
Speaker 3: to pitch like five different things because i have just
Speaker 3: like an ideas factory. But I'm currently working on a
Speaker 3: proposal for a dream book and then a different deck
Speaker 3: because I have I have a Witchcraft therapy oracle deck,
Speaker 3: but I have many other deck ideas, many other book ideas.
Speaker 3: I'm super lucky. I'm so lucky that I get to
Speaker 3: do this and talk about.
Speaker 1: Magic, especially if it's like your thing or yeah it's
Speaker 1: your loving, your passion.
Speaker 2: It's amazing to be able to be able to do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's crazy. I mean we all walk around
Speaker 3: having the biggest mystery. Crazy Like consciousness is like we
Speaker 3: all walk around just like taking for granted, like it's
Speaker 3: it's crazy and if you think of it for too long,
Speaker 3: it'll melt your brain. But it's we all live in
Speaker 3: like this in pot We all just like walk around
Speaker 3: like it's normal. That apparently they tell us like oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: everything came from not like what are you fucking talking about? Like,
Speaker 3: why do our brains work like this? What is reality?
Speaker 3: Doing psychedelics you're like, oh, reality is fake? Like this
Speaker 3: is real? Or like what is real? What is like? Oh,
Speaker 3: it's crazy. And then we're limited by the equipment we
Speaker 3: have and how we can perceive. Like I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's just I love the mystery.
Speaker 2: Do you want? Do you use taro? Do you play
Speaker 2: with two little?
Speaker 3: I do? But I actually prefer using just like oracle decks.
Speaker 3: I actually my favorite deck is a deck that has
Speaker 3: no guidebook whatsoever, it's just imagery because I like doing
Speaker 3: more intuitive style stuff. So my like with my uh,
Speaker 3: with my ADHD. I find that with regular tarot, I
Speaker 3: start thinking of like rigid rules of what each card means.
Speaker 3: So I prefer using oracle decks where I can like
Speaker 3: quiet that part of my brain. And so yeah, I
Speaker 3: like using oracle decks. I like using tarot decks. Tarot
Speaker 3: decks are really good I find for spells, if you
Speaker 3: use like certain cards is like an archetype for what
Speaker 3: you're trying to energy you're trying to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's been a couple of candle magic spells
Speaker 1: that I've incorporated taro in to kind of like represent
Speaker 1: like what I was going for.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, anything you can do to to prime your
Speaker 3: brain to be in that energy and that like frequency
Speaker 3: or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 1: So so I truly I think I actually was like
Speaker 1: doing stuff that might have literally come from the golden
Speaker 1: door of somebody in the I believe it or not,
Speaker 1: that is, including taro to it. I can't remember, but yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, uh yeah, that's that. That's uh have you
Speaker 1: you went to Cabala little? No? Okay, all right, No,
Speaker 1: I was gonna say when I use taro a lot
Speaker 1: I attributed to the Cabbala, it can maybe it can
Speaker 1: fit on the cabalistic tree of life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I'd love to learn more about it because
Speaker 3: I do find it interesting, Like it seems like you
Speaker 3: go back far enough, it usually comes back to that.
Speaker 3: So I'm like, oh, let's you hear about it a lot, and.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, you might actually find that stuff really
Speaker 1: interesting if you ever got into Cabola.
Speaker 2: I don't know, that's that's a rabbit, yeah for you.
Speaker 1: I bet, yeah, But uh nice?
Speaker 2: What other uh I saw? Uh? Oh you're into like
Speaker 2: cord cutting too? Right?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I think we need to use like
Speaker 3: any type of thing at our disposal. I like to
Speaker 3: do more cord cutting with my own self though, Like
Speaker 3: I've done it for attachments with other people and attachments
Speaker 3: with things, But for me personally, the majority actually have
Speaker 3: my I have my cord rate here. The majority of
Speaker 3: my cord cuttings that I do is usually trying to
Speaker 3: get rid of a pattern or break up with my
Speaker 3: own bullshit in some way, because it's it's usually pattern
Speaker 3: based though, like really being in a space of like
Speaker 3: just being attached to my own bullshit or embodying an
Speaker 3: archetype I don't mean to, you know, sad bitch energy
Speaker 3: or whatever.
Speaker 1: So for the listeners, I guess cord cutting would be
Speaker 1: kind of like a releasement of something. Yeah, yeah, just
Speaker 1: filet people though, because I don't know if I've ever
Speaker 1: actually had to mention that on the show before. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: when you do your sigils, do you do you charge
Speaker 1: them at all or anything like that? Is there a
Speaker 1: process that you go through with it?
Speaker 3: Yeah? So I myself personally, I typically use a candle
Speaker 3: and energy work for charging them. I just find that
Speaker 3: to be the easier way. Or if i'm doing something artistically,
Speaker 3: I'm kind of like, well, I'm kind of charging it
Speaker 3: by actually putting a fucking energy into it. And so
Speaker 3: I try and set myself up in a space where
Speaker 3: you know, if you're doing because I do quick ones too,
Speaker 3: just kind of like scrap it out so that I
Speaker 3: can put it on a candle or whatnot. But if
Speaker 3: I'm actually like painting one, you can use like moon water,
Speaker 3: you can use storm water is a really good like
Speaker 3: if I like collecting waters from if we have a
Speaker 3: storm or something outside, using that for painting and things
Speaker 3: that I think helps just like lend lend the energy
Speaker 3: to it is as much as you can.
Speaker 2: That's cool. I never thought of using moon water to
Speaker 2: paint with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, like artsy shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I used. I've used candles too. I would sometimes
Speaker 1: like meditate over them, but I would always like normally
Speaker 1: incorporate a candle and I think I would let it
Speaker 1: burn all the way out and then I would consider
Speaker 1: like the charges over.
Speaker 3: Well, do you like, do you find that it's easier
Speaker 3: to do it? Like I feel like there's always a
Speaker 3: candle involved with most, Like I'm like, there's gonna be
Speaker 3: a candle somewhere.
Speaker 1: I was always using anytime I do anything, Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I do actually yeah, yeah that is interesting. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: no matter like if I was charged in something, I
Speaker 1: incorporated a candle.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I mean I feel like it kind of
Speaker 3: just again sets the space to some degree. It's like
Speaker 3: a psychological primer, like you're doing magic. Now there's a
Speaker 3: fucking candle.
Speaker 2: Like it's a flame. It's magical, right, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Uh. Is there any other stuff like maybe that you're
Speaker 1: into your practice that I really haven't gotten into.
Speaker 3: Gosh, I don't know. I mean it's a little hard
Speaker 3: to say because I kind of do different things every
Speaker 3: like gosh, my lat the last year. I'm not running
Speaker 3: it now, but last year I ran a membership where
Speaker 3: we I hosted sessions every single week for the whole year,
Speaker 3: and I'd have for each season it was seasonal, i'd
Speaker 3: have six guest speakers. But aside from that, I was
Speaker 3: running the sessions and so we did like energy work,
Speaker 3: we did color healing sessions. We did a lot of
Speaker 3: art sessions, like different ways to kind of do because
Speaker 3: I'll do like art style shadow work stuff. It's too
Speaker 3: bad I don't have my book, so I can't show examples,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of different things you can do.
Speaker 3: I actually have a freebie for my email list that
Speaker 3: is like a practice where you can just like dump
Speaker 3: your shit out of your system and then use it
Speaker 3: to create like a message from your higher self. It's
Speaker 3: like crazy. I love running it live because when I
Speaker 3: run it live people it's so organic. You can't force
Speaker 3: what you're going to do, you can't plan ahead what
Speaker 3: you're going to do, and people always get really amazing,
Speaker 3: encouraging and impactful things from it. So, you know, it's
Speaker 3: really hard to say because every I just do so
Speaker 3: many different things depending on what I feel like doing. Essentially,
Speaker 3: if I feel called to do something, I try and
Speaker 3: do that and then I don't get bored and then
Speaker 3: everything's fresh and then you see what works what doesn't,
Speaker 3: and you kind of like refine and move from there.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was crazy because the last year doing
Speaker 3: that membership program every fucking week, and so we did
Speaker 3: so much. I did guided visualizations, we did guided meditations,
Speaker 3: I did active imagination sessions, which those three things are
Speaker 3: more or less different degrees with the same thing. But like,
Speaker 3: there's so many different things that you can do, and
Speaker 3: I personally believe that your practice should be your your
Speaker 3: spiritual playground. Like I think you should have fun with it.
Speaker 3: Like we're all grown ups, we got it. We have
Speaker 3: to like pay bills and exist and whatever the fuck
Speaker 3: this is and follow these stupid rules that are like
Speaker 3: they make no fucking sense. Like we're like walking around
Speaker 3: policing each other, telling each other how to live, and
Speaker 3: we're all get putting on pants as if that's a
Speaker 3: normal thing.
Speaker 2: It's like we're all turned into corrections offices.
Speaker 3: It's so crazy. It's so crazy. And so I think
Speaker 3: that spirituality is like a way that you can have
Speaker 3: fun and explore and like get your self care in
Speaker 3: in a way that's not It doesn't have to cost
Speaker 3: a ton of money, it doesn't have to take you know,
Speaker 3: a ton of time. You don't have to like perform,
Speaker 3: you can just live. And so I think that, yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean it's to answer your question, I feel like
Speaker 3: I do anything and everything depending on what I feel
Speaker 3: like doing and what I need at that moment, and
Speaker 3: I advise everyone to do the same, like have fun
Speaker 3: with it. I think a lot of times when people
Speaker 3: feel disconnected from their practice, it's because they're doing shit
Speaker 3: that they were told they have to do and it
Speaker 3: doesn't work for them anymore. They don't connect with it.
Speaker 3: So find something you connect with and fucking do it.
Speaker 1: No, I've done that myself throughout, like my I guess
Speaker 1: magical career, like certain things, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you get told as like kind of staples of the things
Speaker 1: that you should do, and it's like, well, I just
Speaker 1: don't feel like doing it, and then it's like you
Speaker 1: kind of fuck it all off and it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll just find other things to do. That is, you know,
Speaker 1: neither I'll start reading into new things that I want
Speaker 1: to learn, or maybe I'll start doing a little bit
Speaker 1: more of something else, and then I'll go back to
Speaker 1: it eventually when.
Speaker 2: I'm not so sick of it.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I know what you mean by like
Speaker 1: like the meditation. For a while, it was hard for
Speaker 1: me to get into. Everybody's going to suggest it though,
Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to say, and I think that
Speaker 1: is one of the things you do kind of should do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that I would get tired of sometimes that I'd fuck
Speaker 1: it off and I'd read more, or I'd start learning
Speaker 1: other things. You know, maybe I'll do rituals instead or
Speaker 1: practiced you know, some sort of ritual.
Speaker 2: But then I finally went back to it.
Speaker 1: But I do think it's hugely important, and I find
Speaker 1: it cool that you did guide of meditations and stuff
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, it's it is something that's important and
Speaker 3: the reason I did that membership and now I'm missing
Speaker 3: it and talking about it. It was like so fun.
Speaker 3: But one of the things that can happen I've seen
Speaker 3: and that I've heard people complain about, is that there's
Speaker 3: so much reading books. Will collect the books like usually,
Speaker 3: which is an occult. People love books, so we'll just
Speaker 3: toward all the books. But we love to do that,
Speaker 3: but then it's like when it comes to actual practice
Speaker 3: and integrating and seeing whether or not it works, I
Speaker 3: feel like there's a lack of there can be a
Speaker 3: lack of action because and it's usually because we're looking
Speaker 3: for authority outside of ourselves. So it's like if you
Speaker 3: actually get down and you practice, then you're going to
Speaker 3: see what works. You'll go this works, this didn't. And
Speaker 3: so we tried to make like a membership so that
Speaker 3: people would do it every single week. I'd have the
Speaker 3: guest speakers as well, so that it would be like
Speaker 3: you can try on these different things, see what works,
Speaker 3: what doesn't, and then take that and run with it,
Speaker 3: like seriously figure out what works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really awesome that you said. That's pretty cool. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was probably.
Speaker 3: It was fun as hell. Am my intuition and everything
Speaker 3: like fuck, it was great. Like my skills were developing
Speaker 3: because I was literally every week I had to get there,
Speaker 3: be there in practice.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's so beneficial for you anyway, regardless. Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So it was like, and I'm learning from the
Speaker 3: guest speakers too, so I would like pick the guest
Speaker 3: speakers I wanted to learn shit from.
Speaker 2: Why not? It's your show, right, yeah, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't blame it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was super fun.
Speaker 2: It's good. Do you up for me?
Speaker 1: And I've mentioned as the listeners too, wonder if you
Speaker 1: would agree. I know a lot of times people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's hard to meditate. It's hart to meditate. I even
Speaker 1: started out with guided meditations just to get used to
Speaker 1: trying to like, yeah, just cutting off like one hundred
Speaker 1: of the one hundred and twenty voices I hear at
Speaker 1: the same time, you know, yes, And like another thing too,
Speaker 1: with meditation. I mean, I don't know less your opinion,
Speaker 1: and God bless you if you can do it for me.
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily shutting everything off. It's like just focusing
Speaker 1: on maybe one one or trying to you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, because a lot of people like, oh, I
Speaker 1: can't claim my mind, and it's like I can't either.
Speaker 1: It's just you know, I cut down some of the voices.
Speaker 2: That's all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like part of it is just the
Speaker 3: discipline practice of trying of noticing the other thoughts coming
Speaker 3: in and just being like redirecting yourself like Okay, let's
Speaker 3: just let it go and keep at this. I think
Speaker 3: it's it's it's an interesting thing. Meditation is kind of
Speaker 3: become this thing that can feel like a chore to ignore,
Speaker 3: and it's like it doesn't have to be that. I
Speaker 3: actually wrote a substack post about like what to do
Speaker 3: if you can't meditate, because a lot of people are
Speaker 3: like I can't meditate, and it's like, yes, I think
Speaker 3: that people should meditate, but there are alternatives. Like there's
Speaker 3: people that have lived happy lives and they've died having
Speaker 3: never meditated once and they've been just fine, Like it's
Speaker 3: it's a skill to development. It will it will help you,
Speaker 3: But often we can find ourselves in meditative states from
Speaker 3: you know, you could do most you could do, yeah,
Speaker 3: you could. Some people do sports, some people are running,
Speaker 3: some people do people right. So it's just like, I
Speaker 3: don't know what gets you out of your fucking head
Speaker 3: go and do that. And then yeah, whether it's doing
Speaker 3: it with a focus like for example, like if you're
Speaker 3: doing like an active imagination style session or if you're
Speaker 3: doing meditation, just like just trying to do the classical
Speaker 3: like you know, watch your observe your thoughts, let them
Speaker 3: move through, try not to get attached to any of them.
Speaker 3: It's a it's a discipline, and so you just keep
Speaker 3: trying to do it. So part of it is like
Speaker 3: it's not something you have to get right right, it's
Speaker 3: it's the practice of getting used to doing that. So
Speaker 3: I think it's one of these things that has just
Speaker 3: gotten this weird way to it that it doesn't need
Speaker 3: to have. Again, I'm like one of these people that
Speaker 3: thinks everything should be kind of playful and fun, and
Speaker 3: if it's not, you're not going to fucking do it.
Speaker 3: Why punish yourself.
Speaker 1: I've even like at there's been times where it's like
Speaker 1: I try to find like fifteen minute like MBA tracks
Speaker 1: and it's like all right, I'll just sit in a
Speaker 1: chair or lay and just listen to this and just
Speaker 1: try not to think about too many things. I listened
Speaker 1: to like guided meditations where it was like borderline like
Speaker 1: almost for like teens, it was like, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: like like explaining some talent. It's like almost sounds like
Speaker 1: a belonged to like Hobbit the Lord of the Rings,
Speaker 1: And I was like anything, you know, it was like
Speaker 1: anything just to like I guess I really did believe.
Speaker 2: For me, I was like I haven't feeling this meditation
Speaker 2: shit might help.
Speaker 1: So I really did try to like try so many
Speaker 1: different ways to like get it to click at first,
Speaker 1: but eventually it did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the thing is it's it's a skill, right,
Speaker 3: Like it's the sort of thing that, yeah, you can
Speaker 3: try it. The problem is that that I think there's
Speaker 3: a word for it. But like before before you get
Speaker 3: the rewards, it's trying to motivate yourself to do the
Speaker 3: where you're actually doing the learning, and then after that
Speaker 3: where you're getting the rewards back, it's trying to keep
Speaker 3: up with it as you're developing that skill.
Speaker 1: One thing I did want to ask, I don't know
Speaker 1: what made it pop up into my head? Do you
Speaker 1: work with psalms at will?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: Okay, I was just wondering. Too many people do. I
Speaker 1: just yeah, I'm thinking like that. For some reason, I
Speaker 1: can't remember the guy's name. Somebody I did listen to
Speaker 1: a lot, like for on podcasts for meditative work. The
Speaker 1: guy worked with he worked with angels and psalms a lot,
Speaker 1: And I think that that thing that just popped into
Speaker 1: my head.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I figured, yeah, yeah, no, I don't. I don't
Speaker 2: do anything neither of us.
Speaker 3: Or angels. I don't do work with angels or deities.
Speaker 1: Yeah you say, you really don't work with deities any Oh,
Speaker 1: I guess the psalms plant spirits?
Speaker 2: Yes, oh yeah, do you work with plant spirits?
Speaker 3: Well? Yeah, particularly I like psychedelics, so I do like.
Speaker 2: Oh oh, I think, I said, do you like herbalism?
Speaker 3: I do believe plans have a spirit. I think that
Speaker 3: if you go out into nature and you commune with energies, trees,
Speaker 3: that sort of thing, like the I think they will
Speaker 3: talk back to some degree. And so that's I think
Speaker 3: one of the things that keeps me from being fully secular.
Speaker 3: So when I you know, there's not a lot of
Speaker 3: representation out there for secular minded witches, I would say,
Speaker 3: but I mean there's there's this idea that you know,
Speaker 3: is it can you be a witch and still be secular?
Speaker 3: And when I say secular, I usually just mean like,
Speaker 3: doesn't do deity work, doesn't necessarily worship a higher power.
Speaker 3: Does that mean I don't believe in it or maybe
Speaker 3: you know, might change my mind about it every couple
Speaker 3: of days or every couple of months or something. No.
Speaker 3: I think that's part of the enduring mystery. But nature,
Speaker 3: you just know, like there's other things at play, there's
Speaker 3: other spirits out there, there's other workings out there. And
Speaker 3: you know, anybody that does psychedelics, I mean, it's funny.
Speaker 3: The last time I did them, I was I had
Speaker 3: this epiphany that the reality itself is made up of
Speaker 3: silly little guys. It was the most profound insight at
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: You would think, oh, by the TV and the news,
Speaker 2: I think that's true, right.
Speaker 3: Fuck yeah, yeah, oh god, I don't watch the news.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can't get it to politics.
Speaker 2: That it just kills people. It's just it's horrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then it's like it seems like the most
Speaker 3: yeah anyway.
Speaker 2: This most decisive thing whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like it's almost as if keeping us really divided
Speaker 3: and at each other's throat has some sort of benefit.
Speaker 3: It's crazy.
Speaker 2: No, you're right, you're right. Oh man, I was gonna
Speaker 2: ask you something else. I know, I totally forgot. I
Speaker 2: gotta throw it off.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, so the meditation, I don't think
Speaker 1: it was anything on.
Speaker 2: That anything else? What was the books again? Real quick?
Speaker 2: Let everybody know the books again too that you have?
Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry, it's like such a laundry letter.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: I wrote Witchcraft Therapy, Happy witch Feral self care, shadow
Speaker 3: work for Hot Messes. And then I have my Witchcraft
Speaker 3: therapy oracle deck, which I'm actually really excited about. So
Speaker 3: my oracle deck is cool because it's meant it's again
Speaker 3: Witchcraft therapy based, so it's very much about your psychology.
Speaker 3: So I wrote the deck that I wish I had,
Speaker 3: And so this deck is it has like an explanation
Speaker 3: of what each card is, and then it has like
Speaker 3: a suggested practice ritual something that you can do. Uh.
Speaker 3: That goes along with each card, So like, if you
Speaker 3: just pull one in the morning, you can it'll give
Speaker 3: you some guidance and actual actionable guidance because I try
Speaker 3: and make my work like very much about action, because again,
Speaker 3: people like to read a lot of books, and I
Speaker 3: try and make everything I create have an actionable element.
Speaker 3: But also, if you are going to use these cards
Speaker 3: for say spell work, for example, this is I'm just
Speaker 3: pulling one, but this is the what if card. So
Speaker 3: say you wanted to do a candle spell or a
Speaker 3: bass spell, or some sort of spell for opening up
Speaker 3: to new possibilities. You could take this card. You could
Speaker 3: put it up by your bed, you could meditate on it.
Speaker 3: You could light a candle with it to open up
Speaker 3: to the energy of what if. Right. So I tried
Speaker 3: to make it so that it would be a good
Speaker 3: companion for people that are trying to look at their
Speaker 3: practice as a form of empowerment or self care.
Speaker 2: I like it. I like it.
Speaker 1: I will have to say, there's one thing that I
Speaker 1: thought was different about you when I came across your account.
Speaker 1: I didn't notice pretty pretty soon that you're big into
Speaker 1: like a lot of the self care stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: and then taking.
Speaker 2: Care of you know, your mental health and this and that,
Speaker 2: and I don't know how to say this. I guess
Speaker 2: like that be nascy toads other people.
Speaker 1: But a lot of a lot of other accounts I've
Speaker 1: ever come across that I liked that they seem to
Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't see you making reels telling
Speaker 1: people how to think and how to act. You're just saying,
Speaker 1: get your shit together, you know what I'm saying, a
Speaker 1: lot of self care. A lot of those people almost
Speaker 1: seem to turn into some guru that's just telling you
Speaker 1: how to live, you know.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying.
Speaker 1: And I didn't get that vibe from you at all,
Speaker 1: Like I just feel like you actually kind of like
Speaker 1: make fun of serious real shit, the funny side of
Speaker 1: serious shit, you know what I'm saying, or kind of
Speaker 1: like admit, like you know, we're all fucked.
Speaker 2: Up in our own way, you know somehow, or dealing
Speaker 2: with them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I was like mental like I'm telling you,
Speaker 3: I've been. Yeah, I know what it's like to, you know,
Speaker 3: be in a situation where you know where your mental
Speaker 3: health is is so poor that, for example, you get
Speaker 3: put into a hospital and you get your clothes taken
Speaker 3: away and shit like this is this is the realities
Speaker 3: of life and being human that I think that we
Speaker 3: spend so much time judging ourselves and judging each other
Speaker 3: that we don't recognize as a fundamental part of being
Speaker 3: human is that we have this fucking thing up here
Speaker 3: that sometimes muddies the waters quite a lot. And so
Speaker 3: I think it's something that you don't need to take
Speaker 3: so seriously. I think when people take things so seriously
Speaker 3: and act like they're on some mountaintop and they're like
Speaker 3: gliding down with all the answers, as if that makes
Speaker 3: any sense, I mean, you know, thinking of for example,
Speaker 3: I think it was described the best by Robert Anton
Speaker 3: Wilson when he talks about like reality tunnels, Like, how
Speaker 3: are you gonna come with your reality tunnel and tell
Speaker 3: me how to live my life? I just don't think
Speaker 3: it's possible. That's why I think everybody needs to find
Speaker 3: their own way, because we are all to some degree
Speaker 3: limited by our subjective worldview, beliefs, experiences, whatever, and so
Speaker 3: your responsibility is to figure out what yours is and
Speaker 3: how to make the best of what you've got and
Speaker 3: what you're capable of within that and that's kind of why,
Speaker 3: like naming my account and my handles is always heeling
Speaker 3: for hot messes. Is partly because I want to establish
Speaker 3: right off the bat that there's no hierarchy. Nobody has
Speaker 3: authority over you, Nobody has authority over your practice, over
Speaker 3: how you're going to do things, how you're what you're
Speaker 3: going to find that works for you. Like you can
Speaker 3: get inspiration, you can get you know, you can get
Speaker 3: help with learning, but it's not like somebody can come
Speaker 3: and be like, this is what you have to do,
Speaker 3: like make sure you drink forty eight glasses of water,
Speaker 3: and like, you know, it's just like the dumbest shit.
Speaker 3: And I feel like the Internet is just full of that,
Speaker 3: Like is it just seems to be like, Oh, I've
Speaker 3: made my entire family the exact state of shade of
Speaker 3: blush pink, so we all matt and it just it's
Speaker 3: not authentic. It's so annoying, And then it makes people
Speaker 3: feel bad about themselves because they're like, why doesn't my
Speaker 3: life look like that? Because you're not fake. That shit's fake.
Speaker 3: That's financially incentivized. It's the attention economy has just scrambled everything.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, I like self care, but I
Speaker 3: think self care is like looking at the stars. I
Speaker 3: don't think you have to go, you know, I don't
Speaker 3: think you have to go and like spend a bunch
Speaker 3: of money and do a bunch of shit. Like even
Speaker 3: the word self care kind of make me gag a
Speaker 3: little bit because it's because it's been co opted into
Speaker 3: this really weird kind of prepackaged capitalist nonsense and it
Speaker 3: doesn't Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's kind of what I was getting at. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: kind of exactly. I didn't catch that with you.
Speaker 1: I got a lot of these people that's like, you're
Speaker 1: gonna have trauma forever and you're gonna have to have
Speaker 1: me help you with it.
Speaker 2: One of those people I know everything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's just, yeah, there seems to be this
Speaker 3: thing of like I'm wearing a Maxi dress, so you
Speaker 3: better listen to me because I'm a forty eighth degree
Speaker 3: initiated some woman or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something that they just made up, doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so crazy, it's funny, it's gross.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, crazy days we're living in for sure, for sure.
Speaker 3: It is. But like if you think of it, and
Speaker 3: I try and make this point anytime I have an opportunity,
Speaker 3: and so I'll use this as well as like, you know,
Speaker 3: people were practicing magic and shit like that since since
Speaker 3: humans were human, ing like this is like a thing
Speaker 3: that is a very core to our existence and our being.
Speaker 3: They didn't have fucking stores, they didn't have a million
Speaker 3: different crystals at their disposal, They didn't have five hundred
Speaker 3: books or libraries or things like that. Like they figured
Speaker 3: it out based on their intention and based on their
Speaker 3: ability to be in touch with themselves and the world
Speaker 3: around them, whether it be the spirits, the cosmos, whatever.
Speaker 3: There was that clear, direct kind of thing. And now
Speaker 3: it seems like because our culture is kind of decaying
Speaker 3: in that similar way, is that we're looking for the
Speaker 3: answers everywhere as if we can buy them or we
Speaker 3: can like fix things, and that's not how any of
Speaker 3: that works.
Speaker 2: So I like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was one thing you also said earlier that
Speaker 1: I think was a really good point. And I think
Speaker 1: this is what screws people up, is that, like I
Speaker 1: think the way media or the TV or whatever the
Speaker 1: selling people a full's version of reality. Yes, like that it's
Speaker 1: not even real, So like we chase something that's that
Speaker 1: isn't real. Yeah, you know what I'm saying, Like, and
Speaker 1: that's a mind fucking itself to make us think that
Speaker 1: though you know what I'm saying, that's that's interesting.
Speaker 2: The way you put it before.
Speaker 1: These people really don't live like that, not really like that,
Speaker 1: but they make you believe that that's reality. And then
Speaker 1: people want to mimic that and be like that, and
Speaker 1: it's like it's not real though, like people.
Speaker 3: And we all am like it's crazy because we're all
Speaker 3: programmed to some degree to buy into it, and we
Speaker 3: buy into it in big and small ways, and it's
Speaker 3: so crazy if you think about it, like try and
Speaker 3: think of it outside of that frame of reference, and
Speaker 3: it seems a little bit, it seems a little bit ridiculous,
Speaker 3: and like when you catch it, it's hard. It's hard.
Speaker 3: You can't really unsee it once.
Speaker 4: You see it, and then things become they make less
Speaker 4: and less and less sense, and so it becomes a
Speaker 4: part of like man, sometimes it just like why how
Speaker 4: do we how did we get ourselves here?
Speaker 1: Like yeah, just before we wrap it up, would you
Speaker 1: like to let everybody know where they can find all
Speaker 1: your stuff again? Like wherever they can find your YouTube?
Speaker 1: Or where any of your books.
Speaker 3: You have a website, Yeah, so my books are everywhere
Speaker 3: that books are sold, or you can go there's some
Speaker 3: links on my website, which is Healing for Hot Messes
Speaker 3: dot com. And then you can find me on YouTube
Speaker 3: and Instagram. My handle is Healing for Hot Messes. I'm
Speaker 3: taking like a bit of a break from social media
Speaker 3: right out, but you can find me at Healing for
Speaker 3: Hot Messes. You can sign up for my email list
Speaker 3: or anything like that on my website Healing for Hot
Speaker 3: Messes dot com. I'm on Facebook as Mandy m Writer,
Speaker 3: and then I'm also on.
Speaker 1: Substack awesome if you want send me a substack and
Speaker 1: maybe your Facebook. I think the other links I can
Speaker 1: grab bof of your Instagram right your link trees on there.
Speaker 2: I think something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I believe so, but I don't know how out
Speaker 3: of data. I have like a tendency to have things
Speaker 3: from like three months ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, if you want to send me some links
Speaker 2: and I'll make sure I put those on the show
Speaker 2: notes for you. But no, no, thank you. I had
Speaker 2: a really good talk. It was awesome.
Speaker 1: I'm glad I got you on and hopefully we'll get
Speaker 1: you on again at some other point, maybe to talk
Speaker 1: about something else or even the Gateway stuff, because I
Speaker 1: do find that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be rad if Yeah, you want to
Speaker 3: talk aliens, you want to talk?
Speaker 1: Oh really, okay, dreams, all right, okay, yeah for sure,
Speaker 1: all right, I'll have to keep that in mind, for sure,
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 3: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: No, of course, no, thank you. And uh yeah, if
Speaker 1: you're interested in all links will be at the bottom.
Speaker 1: Go check us stuff out. And that is the end
Speaker 1: of another recall rejects and until the next one, everybody
Speaker 1: be well later.