WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Here's your Channel nine.

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<v Speaker 2>First on the forecasts, got a mostly sunny day going

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<v Speaker 2>up to seventy eight, clear skies over night, fifty six

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<v Speaker 2>for the low seventy eight again in them all with partley,

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<v Speaker 2>cloudy skies, clear over night forty four and on Thursday,

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<v Speaker 2>sunny skies and sixty seven for a high. Right now

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<v Speaker 2>it's forty five degrees. Let's see what Chuck has on

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<v Speaker 2>traffic conditions.

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<v Speaker 3>From the UCL Triumphics Center. When it comes to stroke,

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<v Speaker 3>every second counts. That's why you see Comprehensive Stroke Center.

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<v Speaker 3>and you see how dot Com rex clear westbound two

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<v Speaker 3>seventy five at Love one Smart Lanes open again, but

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<v Speaker 3>thunder a twenty minute delay out of Milford inbound seventy

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<v Speaker 3>four backs above Montana northbound seventy five over a ten

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<v Speaker 3>minute delay out of Erlanger into town. Chuck Ingram on

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<v Speaker 3>fifty five kr SE the talk station.

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<v Speaker 2>Just I have seven thirty here fifty five kr C

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<v Speaker 2>detalk station are very happy Tuesday to side scoop with

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<v Speaker 2>bright part at the top of the our news one

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<v Speaker 2>hour from now. The Daniel Davis Deep Dive and right now,

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<v Speaker 2>please to welcome back to the fifty five Carsy Morning Show,

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<v Speaker 2>The Wild Wild West. He Knows, Tom Clay and a

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<v Speaker 2>number one New York Times best selling authors. Worked as

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<v Speaker 2>a newspaper editor, magazine writer, TV and radio commentator report

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<v Speaker 2>for The New York Times. Numerous awards he's received from

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<v Speaker 2>the Society Professional Journalist, Marine Corps, Heritage Foundation, National Newspaper Associations.

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<v Speaker 2>His books including the best selling Frontier Lowman trilogy, Wild Bill,

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<v Speaker 2>Dodge City and Tombstone, and Blood and Treasure, The Last

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<v Speaker 2>Till and Throne of Grace with Bob Drury. His next book,

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<v Speaker 2>talked About It Today, Bandit Heaven, The Hole in the Wall,

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<v Speaker 2>Gangs and the final chapter of the Wild West. Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>back to the fifty five Carcy Morning Show, Tom Clay,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a pleasure to have you on.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you for having me back. I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 2>And the obviously the title indicates the final chapter of

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<v Speaker 2>the Wild West before we get into the specifics of

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<v Speaker 2>the Hole in the Wall Gang's plural something I did

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<v Speaker 2>not know. Can you set this stage for this period

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<v Speaker 2>in history you're talking about, because you know, I, when

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<v Speaker 2>I think of the Wild West, and you go back

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<v Speaker 2>in time. You know that the settlers are moving out there,

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<v Speaker 2>we have the incursions and interactions with the Native Americans

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<v Speaker 2>and uh, you know, the cattle people moving in and

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<v Speaker 2>shephard all that. But I always kind of keep in mind,

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<v Speaker 2>or try to keep in mind, that there is no

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<v Speaker 2>formal local law enforcement that you did did did you know?

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<v Speaker 2>People really were kind of on their own and that

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<v Speaker 2>people did regularly take the law into their own hands.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a sense of, uh, you know, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to call it rugged individualism for for sort of

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<v Speaker 2>making it sound good, but uh, you know, it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>like you could call nine to one one back then.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that you couldn't then a local law enforcement were

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<v Speaker 1>often overwhelmed. They a lot of times these fellows were

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<v Speaker 1>and they were all menu. But yeah, I think you

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<v Speaker 1>have to look far and wide to find a female

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement person in the West, and you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen nineties, let's say, but they had they were poorly trained,

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<v Speaker 1>if trained at all. They weren't paid that much. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of times they were part timers because they had

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<v Speaker 1>to make a real living as shopkeepers or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>ranchers and everything like that. So a lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>when when there was there was trouble, the perpetrators, the

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<v Speaker 1>bandits got away with it. That's partly what Bandit Heaven

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<v Speaker 1>is about that for years they were these hideouts that

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<v Speaker 1>they used, a hole in the wall in Wyoming. There's

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<v Speaker 1>also a place called Robber's Rooster, another place called Brown's Hole,

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<v Speaker 1>and these were like safe havens for bandits. They rob

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<v Speaker 1>a stagecoach, rob a train, Robert Bank, and then make

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<v Speaker 1>make their high tail their way to one of these hideouts.

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<v Speaker 1>And they were safe there because the lowman at the

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<v Speaker 1>times they were not going anywhere near that. Those places

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<v Speaker 1>they're too there's too many bandits, they're too hard to

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<v Speaker 1>get to. The terrain is really rough. So that's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of what the book is about about is the

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<v Speaker 1>banded gangs that used these hideouts, and the most famous

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<v Speaker 1>ones were led by Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you pulled out. It's the fifty fifth anniversary

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<v Speaker 2>of the film butchecasting in The Sundance Kid. I've seen

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<v Speaker 2>it a whole bunch of times. But you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is the important thing. It's not just Butch casting

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<v Speaker 2>the Sundance Kid as the hole in the Wall gang.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a whole bunch of different folks that sort

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<v Speaker 2>of interacted with this wild bunch.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a really good point because now the movie

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<v Speaker 1>is a really good movie, does hold up some people

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<v Speaker 1>who do want to rewatch it, they'll still be enjoy it.

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<v Speaker 1>And you understand that it's from the director's point of view,

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<v Speaker 1>and the audience point of view is you got Paul Newman,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Robert Redford and Katherine Ross. You want to

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<v Speaker 1>keep the camera on. Now, who cares about anybody else? Right,

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<v Speaker 1>But the fact was the real full story, which is

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<v Speaker 1>you know in Band in Heaven is about there. The

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<v Speaker 1>gangs were pretty were large gangs. There were a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of gangs. Their members shifted from one to the other.

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<v Speaker 1>But sometimes Sundance k would branch off and have his

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<v Speaker 1>own gang for a while, Puts casting his own gang.

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<v Speaker 1>Kid Curry would have his own gang, and gun Play

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<v Speaker 1>Maxwell with have his own gang, Blackjack Catching would have

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<v Speaker 1>his own gang. It's amazing how not only just into

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<v Speaker 1>the eighteen nineties, but into the early you know, nineteen hundreds,

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<v Speaker 1>so only of these gangs are still active and still

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<v Speaker 1>you know, driving the railroad's crazy, especially by robbing their trains.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I suppose that segues into the what twenties and depression,

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<v Speaker 2>eary gangs with Tommy guns and bank robbers.

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<v Speaker 1>And preme boy Floyd Nelson exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>You got to move on into the next century and

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<v Speaker 2>uh and take yourself out of the wild West. But

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<v Speaker 2>these guys would there. They were certainly romanticized. If you

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<v Speaker 2>look at butchcasting the Sundance Kids, they were anti here is.

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<v Speaker 2>You wanted to root for him in many ways. But

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<v Speaker 2>these were not good people.

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<v Speaker 1>They were not good people. One of the interesting things

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<v Speaker 1>I found out about researching but Cassidy is though he

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<v Speaker 1>was he was the leader of leaders. He was like

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<v Speaker 1>the coppo of these these Western gangs, but he himself

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<v Speaker 1>was not. He always avoided violence as much as he could.

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<v Speaker 1>He was not there. There were some Connars characters the

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<v Speaker 1>band that Han't kick Curry as one for example, goundn't

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<v Speaker 1>play Maxwell as the name implies. Their first option was

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<v Speaker 1>to go for their guns. But Butch Cassidy was I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not trying to romanticize them at all. But he was

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<v Speaker 1>a criminal. He was a crook. He robbed trains and

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<v Speaker 1>he robbed banks. But his last resort was any kind

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<v Speaker 1>of violence. In fact, he was to his whole career

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<v Speaker 1>until twenty the very end of his career without killing

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<v Speaker 1>a single person.

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<v Speaker 2>No kidding, Well, what of I love the nicknames these

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<v Speaker 2>guys said. If you mentioned gun play, Maxwell, that tells

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<v Speaker 2>the story. But what of Dirty Dave run a ball?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know he didn't. It wasn't that he said

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<v Speaker 1>bad words. That's why he's called dirty Day. He was

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<v Speaker 1>just HIGI challenge and that's how he got That's how

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<v Speaker 1>he got his nickname Big. He didn't see a bath.

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<v Speaker 1>You didn't see a bat he ever liked and uh

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<v Speaker 1>he was he was so he was.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a stinker in all wayson one Wow and

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<v Speaker 2>you'll let you'll meet other folks like Blackjack catch him

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<v Speaker 2>and uh mentioned gun playing Maxwell Tall Texan Kilpatrick and

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<v Speaker 2>George Flattenose Curry. But what of they weren't just guys

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<v Speaker 2>hanging out with guys. Apparently a lot of women played

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<v Speaker 2>a part in this story that you tell in band

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<v Speaker 2>in Heaven as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm glad I could do that with Banded Hammer

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<v Speaker 1>to include this with the women who were involved. You

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<v Speaker 1>know this, there's the Bassett sisters that that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of swaths of the wild Bunch. There's Andy Rodgers

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<v Speaker 1>of the kid Curry's girl friend as the bandit Queen

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<v Speaker 1>bell Star, and of course there's there's Ethel Place in

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<v Speaker 1>the movie. They call her at a played by Katherine Ross.

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<v Speaker 1>But Ethel Place, it's a really interesting to me because

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<v Speaker 1>we don't we know very little where she came from,

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<v Speaker 1>and suddenly she appears as the paramore of a sundance kid.

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<v Speaker 1>They eventually got married, and so they were a husband

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<v Speaker 1>and wife for a while. And then she when she

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<v Speaker 1>when she left the story, she just disappears. She apparently

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<v Speaker 1>went to San Francisco and nobody ever heard from her again.

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<v Speaker 1>She's one of the most interesting and intriguing and mysterious

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<v Speaker 1>characters in the book.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you do talk about law enforcement agencies and the

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<v Speaker 2>legendary lawmen that ultimately put a stop to this the

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<v Speaker 2>Allan Pinkerton being of the Pinkerton Agency. Now did they

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<v Speaker 2>get involved? Was the federal government integral in hiring them?

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<v Speaker 2>Did local communities hire these folks out to do the

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<v Speaker 2>jobs that their local guys wouldn't do out of fear

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<v Speaker 2>of showing up in a place like the hole in

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<v Speaker 2>the wall and getting gunned down. How did this all

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<v Speaker 2>come to play?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, The Pinkerton Agency first was got noticed because they

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<v Speaker 1>the allan thinker to stop an assassination attempt on Abraham

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<v Speaker 1>Lincoln when he was on his way to Washington to

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<v Speaker 1>be inaugurated as president, and that got them pretty well

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<v Speaker 1>known among federal government sources, and then they famous spread

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<v Speaker 1>to state government. They were usually the ones who hired

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<v Speaker 1>the Pinkerton Agency, and it was really like a precursor.

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<v Speaker 1>As they pointed out and banded in Heaven, they were

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<v Speaker 1>like the FBI before there's the FBI. They were pioneering

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<v Speaker 1>the new detecting methods. They were tracking people down, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're kind of they introduced the professionalism into law enforcement

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<v Speaker 1>that wasn't there before, which made them more effective. As

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<v Speaker 1>we started discussing these part time lawmen that were untrained

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<v Speaker 1>and for the most part was saying that's too dangerous

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<v Speaker 1>of stay at home.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I suppose the mindset within the Pinkertons and the

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<v Speaker 2>others who were tracking down these guys they didn't really

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<v Speaker 2>probably have due process in mind. Weren't they just really

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<v Speaker 2>out to just gun these guys down and put an

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<v Speaker 2>end of their criminal behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, yes, what you said is true. There were sometimes,

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<v Speaker 1>you know a lot of times they wanted these dead

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<v Speaker 1>or alive mandates, saying, you know, if you have to,

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<v Speaker 1>if you kill them and bring them in, it's just

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<v Speaker 1>as good as you bring them alive. But every so

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<v Speaker 1>often that there were there were criminals who gave themselves

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<v Speaker 1>up and smartly. And I mean there's there's several characters

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<v Speaker 1>in banded him and then had a criminal career. But

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<v Speaker 1>they gave themselves up, spent some time in prison, and

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<v Speaker 1>had the rest of their life as model citizens, which

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<v Speaker 1>is very which is kind of unusual. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the landscape of the Wildwest was changing. There was no

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<v Speaker 1>wild West to go back to. By the early middle

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<v Speaker 1>of eighteen nineties, it was changing drastically well.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm sure folks I had never heard of Charlie

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<v Speaker 2>Serringo apparently refer to the cowboy detective, most successful of

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<v Speaker 2>the late century lawman. How come his name's fallen below

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<v Speaker 2>most everyone's radar. I guess that's a.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a really good question. I think part of it

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<v Speaker 1>is because there's probably never been a movie made about him.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the characters in the book in my book

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<v Speaker 1>is Tom Horne. There was a movie made about him

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<v Speaker 1>with Steve McQueen. He was not Charlie Serringo was not

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<v Speaker 1>included in the Pascassing a Sun Dance Kid movie. He's

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<v Speaker 1>spent thousands of miles in the saddle, going from all

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<v Speaker 1>of the United States to track down criminals. Very successful.

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<v Speaker 1>I had a long career as a think it's the

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<v Speaker 1>detective at the Cowboy. Here's the best selling author's here.

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<v Speaker 1>He wrote several books about his adventures. And it's a

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<v Speaker 1>really good question that I don't like an answer other

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<v Speaker 1>than to say there's never been a presentation of him

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<v Speaker 1>on screen. Well.

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times best selling author Tom Claven, author of Bandit, Heaven,

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<v Speaker 2>The Hole in the Wall, Gangs in the final chapter

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<v Speaker 2>of The Wild Wild West, how about you write a screenplay.

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<v Speaker 2>Seems like you can sell that to someone in Hollywood,

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<v Speaker 2>make millions of dollars in retire.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that would be good. Where we're going to retire

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<v Speaker 1>and do what? Write a book? There?

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<v Speaker 2>You are, retire from your book writing and write books

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<v Speaker 2>in your retirement. Tom Claven, you always do a fabulous

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<v Speaker 2>job filling in all the blanks and revealing these wonderful characters.

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<v Speaker 2>And telling America's history. I know my listeners are going

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<v Speaker 2>to love it. It's on my blog page fifty five

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<v Speaker 2>Carsey dot com the link to where they get the book,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll encourage him to get a copy.

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<v Speaker 1>Tom.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been a real pleasure having me back on. Keep

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<v Speaker 2>up the great work.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for having me back on. I appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 2>My pleasure seven forty fifty five. Care and see the

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<v Speaker 2>talk stations. See there's always another story to tell, isn't there.

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<v Speaker 2>Susette Low's Camp not a story to tell, but just

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<v Speaker 2>a person I'm recommending to you like I recommended to

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<v Speaker 2>my daughter.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>Lauren is very happy in her what we call the farm.

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<v Speaker 2>It's five and a half fakers for us, it's a farm.

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<v Speaker 2>Matter of fact, she's getting their chickens this week. But

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<v Speaker 2>she is on her way. And thanks to Susette Low's Camp,

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<v Speaker 2>who promptly and just very quickly got her and hopefully

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<v Speaker 2>soon to be fiance Eric financing for their place. It

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<v Speaker 2>only took a couple of days. I was amazed by that.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's where she is. She's very quick, very courteous,

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<v Speaker 2>wonderful customer service, get you through the whole process as

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<v Speaker 2>quickly and painlessly as possible, with no junk fees or

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<v Speaker 2>application fees, great rates at a low cost. I assure

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<v Speaker 2>you you can't find someone better in customer service or

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<v Speaker 2>with more experience. Whosette has been at this for more

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<v Speaker 2>than thirty five years and being with Cross Country Mortgage.

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<v Speaker 2>What state are you in? She can help you all

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<v Speaker 2>fifty states plus Puerto Rico. She can offer her assistance

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<v Speaker 2>and you'll be happy that she is there for you,

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<v Speaker 2>regardless of what it is. Whether you want to get

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<v Speaker 2>some equity out of your home refinance, even a reverse mortgage,

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<v Speaker 2>if that's in your business, at your in your future.

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<v Speaker 2>She can help you, and she will. You'll be glad

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<v Speaker 2>you called her five one three three one three fifty

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<v Speaker 2>one seventy six caller at any time. She's very prompt

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<v Speaker 2>about getting back with you during business hours five one

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<v Speaker 2>three three one three fifty one seventy six. She get

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<v Speaker 2>back with you right away with an email as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Suzette dot lowscampspelled l O s E K A M P.

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<v Speaker 2>Susette dot lows Camp at CCM dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>This is fifty five k r C and iHeartRadio station.

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<v Speaker 2>If you will