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Speaker 3: fifty five kr SE the talk station.
Speaker 2: Just I have seven thirty here fifty five kr C
Speaker 2: detalk station are very happy Tuesday to side scoop with
Speaker 2: bright part at the top of the our news one
Speaker 2: hour from now. The Daniel Davis Deep Dive and right now,
Speaker 2: please to welcome back to the fifty five Carsy Morning Show,
Speaker 2: The Wild Wild West. He Knows, Tom Clay and a
Speaker 2: number one New York Times best selling authors. Worked as
Speaker 2: a newspaper editor, magazine writer, TV and radio commentator report
Speaker 2: for The New York Times. Numerous awards he's received from
Speaker 2: the Society Professional Journalist, Marine Corps, Heritage Foundation, National Newspaper Associations.
Speaker 2: His books including the best selling Frontier Lowman trilogy, Wild Bill,
Speaker 2: Dodge City and Tombstone, and Blood and Treasure, The Last
Speaker 2: Till and Throne of Grace with Bob Drury. His next book,
Speaker 2: talked About It Today, Bandit Heaven, The Hole in the Wall,
Speaker 2: Gangs and the final chapter of the Wild West. Welcome
Speaker 2: back to the fifty five Carcy Morning Show, Tom Clay,
Speaker 2: and it's a pleasure to have you on.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for having me back. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: And the obviously the title indicates the final chapter of
Speaker 2: the Wild West before we get into the specifics of
Speaker 2: the Hole in the Wall Gang's plural something I did
Speaker 2: not know. Can you set this stage for this period
Speaker 2: in history you're talking about, because you know, I, when
Speaker 2: I think of the Wild West, and you go back
Speaker 2: in time. You know that the settlers are moving out there,
Speaker 2: we have the incursions and interactions with the Native Americans
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, the cattle people moving in and
Speaker 2: shephard all that. But I always kind of keep in mind,
Speaker 2: or try to keep in mind, that there is no
Speaker 2: formal local law enforcement that you did did did you know?
Speaker 2: People really were kind of on their own and that
Speaker 2: people did regularly take the law into their own hands.
Speaker 2: There was a sense of, uh, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: want to call it rugged individualism for for sort of
Speaker 2: making it sound good, but uh, you know, it wasn't
Speaker 2: like you could call nine to one one back then.
Speaker 1: Now that you couldn't then a local law enforcement were
Speaker 1: often overwhelmed. They a lot of times these fellows were
Speaker 1: and they were all menu. But yeah, I think you
Speaker 1: have to look far and wide to find a female
Speaker 1: law enforcement person in the West, and you know, the
Speaker 1: eighteen nineties, let's say, but they had they were poorly trained,
Speaker 1: if trained at all. They weren't paid that much. A
Speaker 1: lot of times they were part timers because they had
Speaker 1: to make a real living as shopkeepers or you know,
Speaker 1: ranchers and everything like that. So a lot of times
Speaker 1: when when there was there was trouble, the perpetrators, the
Speaker 1: bandits got away with it. That's partly what Bandit Heaven
Speaker 1: is about that for years they were these hideouts that
Speaker 1: they used, a hole in the wall in Wyoming. There's
Speaker 1: also a place called Robber's Rooster, another place called Brown's Hole,
Speaker 1: and these were like safe havens for bandits. They rob
Speaker 1: a stagecoach, rob a train, Robert Bank, and then make
Speaker 1: make their high tail their way to one of these hideouts.
Speaker 1: And they were safe there because the lowman at the
Speaker 1: times they were not going anywhere near that. Those places
Speaker 1: they're too there's too many bandits, they're too hard to
Speaker 1: get to. The terrain is really rough. So that's a
Speaker 1: lot of what the book is about about is the
Speaker 1: banded gangs that used these hideouts, and the most famous
Speaker 1: ones were led by Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you pulled out. It's the fifty fifth anniversary
Speaker 2: of the film butchecasting in The Sundance Kid. I've seen
Speaker 2: it a whole bunch of times. But you know, and
Speaker 2: this is the important thing. It's not just Butch casting
Speaker 2: the Sundance Kid as the hole in the Wall gang.
Speaker 2: This is a whole bunch of different folks that sort
Speaker 2: of interacted with this wild bunch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point because now the movie
Speaker 1: is a really good movie, does hold up some people
Speaker 1: who do want to rewatch it, they'll still be enjoy it.
Speaker 1: And you understand that it's from the director's point of view,
Speaker 1: and the audience point of view is you got Paul Newman,
Speaker 1: you know, Robert Redford and Katherine Ross. You want to
Speaker 1: keep the camera on. Now, who cares about anybody else? Right,
Speaker 1: But the fact was the real full story, which is
Speaker 1: you know in Band in Heaven is about there. The
Speaker 1: gangs were pretty were large gangs. There were a bunch
Speaker 1: of gangs. Their members shifted from one to the other.
Speaker 1: But sometimes Sundance k would branch off and have his
Speaker 1: own gang for a while, Puts casting his own gang.
Speaker 1: Kid Curry would have his own gang, and gun Play
Speaker 1: Maxwell with have his own gang, Blackjack Catching would have
Speaker 1: his own gang. It's amazing how not only just into
Speaker 1: the eighteen nineties, but into the early you know, nineteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: so only of these gangs are still active and still
Speaker 1: you know, driving the railroad's crazy, especially by robbing their trains.
Speaker 2: Well, I suppose that segues into the what twenties and depression,
Speaker 2: eary gangs with Tommy guns and bank robbers.
Speaker 1: And preme boy Floyd Nelson exactly.
Speaker 2: You got to move on into the next century and
Speaker 2: uh and take yourself out of the wild West. But
Speaker 2: these guys would there. They were certainly romanticized. If you
Speaker 2: look at butchcasting the Sundance Kids, they were anti here is.
Speaker 2: You wanted to root for him in many ways. But
Speaker 2: these were not good people.
Speaker 1: They were not good people. One of the interesting things
Speaker 1: I found out about researching but Cassidy is though he
Speaker 1: was he was the leader of leaders. He was like
Speaker 1: the coppo of these these Western gangs, but he himself
Speaker 1: was not. He always avoided violence as much as he could.
Speaker 1: He was not there. There were some Connars characters the
Speaker 1: band that Han't kick Curry as one for example, goundn't
Speaker 1: play Maxwell as the name implies. Their first option was
Speaker 1: to go for their guns. But Butch Cassidy was I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to romanticize them at all. But he was
Speaker 1: a criminal. He was a crook. He robbed trains and
Speaker 1: he robbed banks. But his last resort was any kind
Speaker 1: of violence. In fact, he was to his whole career
Speaker 1: until twenty the very end of his career without killing
Speaker 1: a single person.
Speaker 2: No kidding, Well, what of I love the nicknames these
Speaker 2: guys said. If you mentioned gun play, Maxwell, that tells
Speaker 2: the story. But what of Dirty Dave run a ball?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know he didn't. It wasn't that he said
Speaker 1: bad words. That's why he's called dirty Day. He was
Speaker 1: just HIGI challenge and that's how he got That's how
Speaker 1: he got his nickname Big. He didn't see a bath.
Speaker 1: You didn't see a bat he ever liked and uh
Speaker 1: he was he was so he was.
Speaker 2: He was a stinker in all wayson one Wow and
Speaker 2: you'll let you'll meet other folks like Blackjack catch him
Speaker 2: and uh mentioned gun playing Maxwell Tall Texan Kilpatrick and
Speaker 2: George Flattenose Curry. But what of they weren't just guys
Speaker 2: hanging out with guys. Apparently a lot of women played
Speaker 2: a part in this story that you tell in band
Speaker 2: in Heaven as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad I could do that with Banded Hammer
Speaker 1: to include this with the women who were involved. You
Speaker 1: know this, there's the Bassett sisters that that you know,
Speaker 1: kind of swaths of the wild Bunch. There's Andy Rodgers
Speaker 1: of the kid Curry's girl friend as the bandit Queen
Speaker 1: bell Star, and of course there's there's Ethel Place in
Speaker 1: the movie. They call her at a played by Katherine Ross.
Speaker 1: But Ethel Place, it's a really interesting to me because
Speaker 1: we don't we know very little where she came from,
Speaker 1: and suddenly she appears as the paramore of a sundance kid.
Speaker 1: They eventually got married, and so they were a husband
Speaker 1: and wife for a while. And then she when she
Speaker 1: when she left the story, she just disappears. She apparently
Speaker 1: went to San Francisco and nobody ever heard from her again.
Speaker 1: She's one of the most interesting and intriguing and mysterious
Speaker 1: characters in the book.
Speaker 2: Well, you do talk about law enforcement agencies and the
Speaker 2: legendary lawmen that ultimately put a stop to this the
Speaker 2: Allan Pinkerton being of the Pinkerton Agency. Now did they
Speaker 2: get involved? Was the federal government integral in hiring them?
Speaker 2: Did local communities hire these folks out to do the
Speaker 2: jobs that their local guys wouldn't do out of fear
Speaker 2: of showing up in a place like the hole in
Speaker 2: the wall and getting gunned down. How did this all
Speaker 2: come to play?
Speaker 1: Well, The Pinkerton Agency first was got noticed because they
Speaker 1: the allan thinker to stop an assassination attempt on Abraham
Speaker 1: Lincoln when he was on his way to Washington to
Speaker 1: be inaugurated as president, and that got them pretty well
Speaker 1: known among federal government sources, and then they famous spread
Speaker 1: to state government. They were usually the ones who hired
Speaker 1: the Pinkerton Agency, and it was really like a precursor.
Speaker 1: As they pointed out and banded in Heaven, they were
Speaker 1: like the FBI before there's the FBI. They were pioneering
Speaker 1: the new detecting methods. They were tracking people down, and
Speaker 1: they're kind of they introduced the professionalism into law enforcement
Speaker 1: that wasn't there before, which made them more effective. As
Speaker 1: we started discussing these part time lawmen that were untrained
Speaker 1: and for the most part was saying that's too dangerous
Speaker 1: of stay at home.
Speaker 2: Well, I suppose the mindset within the Pinkertons and the
Speaker 2: others who were tracking down these guys they didn't really
Speaker 2: probably have due process in mind. Weren't they just really
Speaker 2: out to just gun these guys down and put an
Speaker 2: end of their criminal behavior.
Speaker 1: You know, yes, what you said is true. There were sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know a lot of times they wanted these dead
Speaker 1: or alive mandates, saying, you know, if you have to,
Speaker 1: if you kill them and bring them in, it's just
Speaker 1: as good as you bring them alive. But every so
Speaker 1: often that there were there were criminals who gave themselves
Speaker 1: up and smartly. And I mean there's there's several characters
Speaker 1: in banded him and then had a criminal career. But
Speaker 1: they gave themselves up, spent some time in prison, and
Speaker 1: had the rest of their life as model citizens, which
Speaker 1: is very which is kind of unusual. But you know,
Speaker 1: the landscape of the Wildwest was changing. There was no
Speaker 1: wild West to go back to. By the early middle
Speaker 1: of eighteen nineties, it was changing drastically well.
Speaker 2: And I'm sure folks I had never heard of Charlie
Speaker 2: Serringo apparently refer to the cowboy detective, most successful of
Speaker 2: the late century lawman. How come his name's fallen below
Speaker 2: most everyone's radar. I guess that's a.
Speaker 1: That's a really good question. I think part of it
Speaker 1: is because there's probably never been a movie made about him.
Speaker 1: One of the characters in the book in my book
Speaker 1: is Tom Horne. There was a movie made about him
Speaker 1: with Steve McQueen. He was not Charlie Serringo was not
Speaker 1: included in the Pascassing a Sun Dance Kid movie. He's
Speaker 1: spent thousands of miles in the saddle, going from all
Speaker 1: of the United States to track down criminals. Very successful.
Speaker 1: I had a long career as a think it's the
Speaker 1: detective at the Cowboy. Here's the best selling author's here.
Speaker 1: He wrote several books about his adventures. And it's a
Speaker 1: really good question that I don't like an answer other
Speaker 1: than to say there's never been a presentation of him
Speaker 1: on screen. Well.
Speaker 2: New York Times best selling author Tom Claven, author of Bandit, Heaven,
Speaker 2: The Hole in the Wall, Gangs in the final chapter
Speaker 2: of The Wild Wild West, how about you write a screenplay.
Speaker 2: Seems like you can sell that to someone in Hollywood,
Speaker 2: make millions of dollars in retire.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be good. Where we're going to retire
Speaker 1: and do what? Write a book? There?
Speaker 2: You are, retire from your book writing and write books
Speaker 2: in your retirement. Tom Claven, you always do a fabulous
Speaker 2: job filling in all the blanks and revealing these wonderful characters.
Speaker 2: And telling America's history. I know my listeners are going
Speaker 2: to love it. It's on my blog page fifty five
Speaker 2: Carsey dot com the link to where they get the book,
Speaker 2: and I'll encourage him to get a copy.
Speaker 1: Tom.
Speaker 2: It's been a real pleasure having me back on. Keep
Speaker 2: up the great work.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me back on. I appreciate it.
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