Speaker 1: You're listening to set the Sanctum on the parallel with
UK radially.
Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome. I am Kerrie Anne, and you are listening
to Seventh Sanctum and this evening I'm being joined with Natalie.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 4: I was going to say this, this dark and rainy,
miserable UK evening.
Speaker 3: I don't know about everybody else, but it's horrible here.
Speaker 2: I thrive. I thrive in this weather. I live for
this weather, the rain and the storm, and the crows
and trees and.
Speaker 1: Things experience being in London there at the Claim kind
and I'll tell you I felt blessed. The weather was
only bad. I think one day, you.
Speaker 2: Know, it was really warm as well, considering the time
of year, it was a really.
Speaker 1: So I'll bring you some more good weather. How's that.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm also going to be there in June. I've
already got my tickets. I'm really excited. So yeah, we'll
institution you William. Thank you so much for joining us.
Usually when we invite guests on, we like to hear
a little bit about you and your journey so far.
So could we just get like a bit of an
over over view?
Speaker 1: Okay? Well, I'm born and raised Chicago kid. Grew up
in a very good neighborhood in Chicago, not pretty much
crime free, went to very good high schools and college
and so forth. Never thinking that I was going to
be in law enforcement. I started out in marketing, and
after a couple of years of ED, I grew very
quickly got tired of the same repetitive things that I
was doing, and I took the police exam and I
came out of the police department in nineteen seventy and
like everyone else, I was assigned to uniform patrol. But
that didn't last long, and I'm glad it didn't because
when you're in uniform, you're tied to that police radio,
You're dressed in uniform and a uniform car, and everybody
sees you. Okay. I wanted to do real crime, and
I was fortunate. After about a year, I was asked
to go into a plain, close tactical unit, which specialized
in crimes, active crime work on the street, gangs, narcotics,
and responding to all crimes of violence. And so I
went with that for all the first part of my career,
worked in the gang units, and then was assigned as
a new detective and worked in the area five, which
was the western part of Chicago, involved some very very
heavy crime areas, and it was my place of choice.
And while in my career as a policeman, I was
in a policeman from nineteen seventy and I left the
department in nineteen ninety four, so I had about twenty
five years in and along the way I met some
tremendously great police officers who mentored me and I was
very happy to have that association with them. But then again,
like most professions, there's always some that you are a
little leiri of, okay, and in Chicago, having a few
bad cops amongst the group, that wasn't so unusual. But
I took note of it.
Speaker 2: And I think that's quite interesting. I don't want to
get to ahead of myself, actually, but you do have
a new book coming out, isn't it, Regarding this, so
our first journey, first time we met was at Crime Con,
which was in London. I come and got my book
signed by you, the John John Wayne Gacy book that
you offered.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, that would be Omnipotent Don't Ask, Don't Tell,
And it's available on Amazon, okay, and I was very
happy it sold very well at the convention, and I
had a lot of people like yourself who came up
with questions. And that's what I really wanted to get
the connection to you or anybody who had an interest
in the case.
Speaker 2: And it is a really interesting case. And before we
whilst we were waiting to get a long we were
discussing about how everyday people can seem unseemly and how
actually that's one of the main components of being able
to get away with things for as long as he
did well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and John Wayne Gacy was the most notorious serial
killer and ship in the country at the time. I mean,
what happened was in nineteen seventy four. I was a
tactical officer and a police officer for only four years.
My wife came home from work one day. She had
been worked for an insurance company. John Gasey was running
a very good construction company, remodeling constructions, thing like that,
and he was very successful. And she came home one
day and said, Bill, this guy John Gasey, who does
work for the insurance company, invited us over to his home.
So she had never probably even mentioned his name before.
But I did go with my one son at the time,
and we met with John Gacy, his wife, and his
second wife and the two daughters he had, and we
spent five six hours there and you know, I had
a good time, a good meal, you know, a lot
of conversation. Nothing really well, well I'll get to that
in a minute. But you know, it's like I was
telling you before, you go through life, you meet people
and at the time you meet them, there's nothing remarkable
about remarkable about them, you know, and then you wake
up one morning and you turn onto the television center,
you pick up for the newspaper and see, oh my god,
this guy's in the news. Well, John Annoyne Gacy in
nineteen seventy eight in December is big time news, not
only in Chicago but throughout the nation because every read,
single day, they're digging up more and more bodies from
underneath his home. And there was a total of thirty
three bodies that were attributed to him uncovered, most of
them uncovered underneath the home, two more on the property,
and then four he dumped in a river after he
was running out of space to bury them. So you know,
who wouldn't you know I had all these hours in
his house where there was no I. I had no
sense that he was a killer. But that's why he
was successful. Serial killers nobody sees the evil in them,
you know. They just connect with people and people liked them.
And he was well liked. He was really he connected
even in the political circle in Chicago, and he was
an alderman and he was familiar with all the politicians.
He was doing work for them at their home. You know,
you know, you know, you need a little work at
the house. I got a crew, we'll come out, we'll
do the work. We won't even charge it, don't worry
about it, you know, that kind of thing. So people
really like John Gaycy, all right. But now when he's
making the news, all these politicians that had attended his
parties at his house, and he had at times big
yard parties with two three hundred people. I mean I
was only in his house at one time at one time.
But these other people, these politicians that were going to
these big parties. After Gaycy's in the news, everybody's wanted
to distance themselves from him, you know, so straight up
denial that they knew him, Most of them, you know,
afraid that they were connected to Gaycy. In any way.
I mean, this is a notorious serial killer. But I
because I had been at his house, I knew him.
But in the conversation we had, you know, you meet
people for the first time and you start talking about
where do you live, your education, friends, things like that.
And the one question he asked me said, well, where
do you live, Bill? And I said, I live in Chicago,
John right near were two streets intersected. He says, really,
he says, you know, there's a building on Miami Avenue.
I do the maintenance work over there. And I knew
the building when he told me. It was on Miami Avenue,
and it was about two buildings away from the apartment
I was living in. And every time I would drive,
we would park the car in the back. Every time
I would exit from my house and drive through the alley,
I'd be driving directly at the front of that building. Now,
before I met him, if he had been there, I
never paid any attention to him. I had no reason to.
If he was there, you know, I didn't take any
he noticed. But after I met him at his house,
he uh, he was familiar to me. So occasionally when
I'd be walking my dog or coming with the car.
I see him there and at times he had young
men with him. I had brief conversations with him, you know,
nothing big. We had met, had a good time at
the house, but we didn't connect as friends, you know.
I mean the day that I was there for that
first meeting, before I left, he invited me back to
his house, said, Bill, come on back, have a few beers. Also,
I forgot to tell you. While I was at the
house that night, we like I said, we had dinner,
we played a little pool, we sat at the bar.
My wife was with his wife.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: He approached me and he pulled out a pair of
handcuffs and he said, can I show you a trick? Bill?
And I said, John, I was in the police training
academy for six months. Every day I had handcuffs put
on me, and I was putting them on other people.
I know the trick, John, you have to have the key.
So he took the he took the cuffs and put
them away, and then he came out with a handgun,
a revolver, and he wanted to show me that. And
I said, John, there's kids here. I have guns all
the time. I've got a gun on me right now.
I don't play with guns, especially with children, are allowed.
So I said put it away, and he did, okay,
But he invited me back to the house, said, you know,
come on, stop buying. Well, we'll have a beer and
watch a ballgame or something, you know. And not long
after that he we had need of some work repair
work done in our apartment and the landowner, department owner,
told my wife, if you know somebody can fix it,
have them do it and send us the bill. So
she approached Gasey, and Gasey came out to the house
and he brought a young boy or man with him,
about seventeen eight. Team. He told him and instructed him
how to do the work, and he said, I'm going
to leave him here to do the work. I'll come
back in a couple hours and pick him up. And
when he came back to pick up the boy, the
work was done well. We had all went outside, and
before he left, he invited me again to come to
his house. Same thing. And I do remember shortly after
that there was an evening where I thought maybe I'll
go there, you know, I thought, well, maybe I'll just
drive over to John's house and see what's going on.
But I didn't you know, and then might have saved
my life because who knows he knew I was a policeman,
all right, but I don't know he's a killer, all right.
So if I was in his house thinking it was
going to be a friendly meeting and he suddenly pulled
out that gun, I'm at a loss already. But I
didn't go. And this is a little bit we're going
to talk about the paranormal. Okay. During my lifetime, I
have experienced some mysterious things related to the dark side,
but I've also experienced situations like where I didn't go
to Gaycy as maybe an intervention and see. And even
before Gaysey, there was another thing. Like I told you,
I grew up in a great neighborhood in Chicago. I
mean we had forest preserves, rivers, golf courses, you know,
a block away from me. Well, in nineteen fifty five,
I had two brothers, Tony and John Schusler. They were
eleven or twelve and fourteen years old at the time.
They lived one block away from where I did City Street,
and I would go to their house often, go in
the house play. Other kids would come and play, and
then one Sunday I believe it was. I was with
them and some other kids, and we were congregated around
that Sunday, but I went home all right. Later that day,
the two Shoster boys and a third boy named Peterson,
who I didn't know, had gone downtown to a movie
theater and they never returned home. They were found a
day or two later, naked and dead in a local
forest preserve. In that case, the Shoster Peterson case was
a notorious, well known case. It remained unsolved until nineteen
ninety four, and I was present for the offender who
killed those three kids. Is on that day, my last
day of work. I retired the next day. I didn't
solve the case. It was actually solved by a couple
HTF agents from federal government who got information while doing
something else. But they had to come to Chicago because
that's where the murder case was, and of course I
knew everything about the case. So he was arrested and
later Kenny Hansen, who was one of the two offenders,
got three hundred years in prison and died in prison.
But there was, you know, I don't know if that
was an intervention. I didn't go with them to the theater,
you know, But I was with them that morning, and
then there's there's you know, the witchess thing. Okay, that's
of interest if you want to go to the dark side.
This is how this goes down. I was in a
gang unit at the time, and this had to be
in there about nineteen eighty five, and of course, being
in gangs, were interested in them because the guns and narcotics. Okay, Well,
we had information in the black community there was a
black woman, older black woman who is known in the
community as a witch. They all said, this woman has
evil in her, she has these witch like powers. And
we only were interested in her because the information we
were receiving from informansts was that she was stocking the
guns and narcotics for the local gang in her home. Okay,
So the gang unit that I was in we went
there and conducted search warrant that day and we found
some guns in narcotics the inventory, and I noticed that
she had several books on witchcraft. Okay, you know book
in particular it was about it was really interesting, it
was it appeared to be old and it was something
the title somewhat about curses and spells. Okay, and my
wife at the time, she had an interest at and
I thought, well, you know, okay, nobody's going to miss
this book amongst the books she's got. So I met.
I took that book home, and I don't even know
if I said anything to my wife about it, but
that evening, with a book in the house, my two
sons now went to had gone to bed. I had
gone up say good night, turned off the television set
in the bedroom, went downstairs to join my wife to
watch television. And later that night, all of a sudden
we hear thunder, flashes of lightning, and all of a sudden,
the house is shaking, and I'm smelling smoke, all right,
And then I look. I run upstairs to the kids
room and the television that I had turned on, I
mean off, it's on, but as I'm watching it, it's
slowly phades away, but I'm smelling smoke. I had to
call the fire department and they came out and my
TV antenna on the roof had been struck by lightning
and the wires connected to it down into the house.
Anything connected to the TV, like the video recorders and
stuff like that, they were all burned out and would
have to be replaced. And I was shaken and glad
that the fire department was there. And I'm telling the
fire department man, what the hell the lightning? You know,
why is it hit my house? And the guys going lightning, thunder?
What are you talking about? And there was no rain,
but it was lightning to hit the antenna. And I
thought to itself.
Speaker 3: When they say there wasn't any lightning then, or that
they weren't aware of any.
Speaker 1: No, none, But we were inside the house and we
had evidence from the damage. There was no doubts if
the antenna had hit got hit by lightning.
Speaker 3: So inside it sounded like there was thunder and lightning,
but outside nobody was aware of and we weren't running.
Speaker 1: We weren't running to the window to look out the
window until suddenly the whole house shook and the TVs
went out. All right, So the I mean the fire department,
that guys are looking at me like I'm a little
whack of except they can't deny that the house got
hit by lightning.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, we got to put into insures, claim to have
everything repaired. But here it even gets a little better.
And this is really wacky. And I still to this
day don't know what. I took the book and I
threw it through it. I played, sit into my garage
where we park our two cars. Okay, I live in
a great neighborhood. No crime. Okay, next morning, wake up.
Somebody had broken into my garage and they stole the
radio out of my wife's car and damaged the console.
All right, so I said, you know the lightning. Now
I get this. I took the book and I walked
down the alley to where the old Italian guy lived.
There was always a pain in the neck and always
complain about everything. And I threw the book in his
garbage can. That night, the garbage canon was on fire
and part of his garage burned. They swear my wife
would tell you to unbelievable, And I thought, it's got
to be this book. You know, I didn't have any
proof except occurrences. They can't be exploed, and I didn't
want anything more to do with it. But throughout my
police career, you know paranormal occurrences, things that are seem
unseemly or unexplained. You know, it's not something that's repeated
or I don't think you a person sees often or
like you hear a haunted houses where people may be
in a house and things move and stuff like that. Well,
I'm not going to discredit them because I wasn't there, okay,
But I've been to a lot of homicide scenes, okay,
and I've seen everything from the little children, groups of
people killed in any way imaginable. Okay. It's my job
of choice. It was something I was good at, and
I was not disturbed by anything. But we did have
a case of an elderly Polish woman who lived in
a two flags apartment building that she owned, and the
one apartment was vacant. She lived on the first floor
by herself, and she was found murdered inside her apartment,
all right. She had to be about eighty some years
old at the time. And when me and my partner
got assigned to that case and we came there, the
police were already there, of course, and they had secured
the scene, so forth and so on, and we went
in and going about the course of our business looking
for evidence, and of course part of your evidences is
a victim her body, okay. So we witnessed that she
had been battered about the head and killed, and she
had been disrobed from the waist down, all right, and
somebody had placed the red rose that came from some
artificial flowers in the house on her bare back side,
all right. And as we're standing there with my no
pad in hand and pen in my hand, I swear
to God never ever before happened to me at any
other crime scene. But I felt a hand go from
one side on my shoulder and slowly drag itself across
to the other side. And it freaked me out. I mean,
it's like whoa, and my partner's there and it's not
happening to him. But again later in the same apartment,
while we're still there, I forgot this feeling again of
somebody touching me. And I've never had that before, you know,
But that was the most just settling. I mean, it
didn't freak me out because I mean I've seen everything,
you know, I've been involved in shootings, I've done all
this other kind of police work, and I don't get
unnerved very easily. But it wasn't an evil thing. It's
just a presence that I assumed, and I gotta say
I assumed it because there's no proof, you know, But
in that one pace, I believe what I felt there
was no explanation other than I'm being touched.
Speaker 2: And I think that sometimes that when we compare, you know,
being able to have that experience and police work. Everything
is very objective, isn't it. What is can be disputed
beyond doubt, whereas paranormals whe paranormal experiences are so subjective
and there's no way of measuring it either. So it's
quite to be those two have a foot in both
roles at one time. Must have been a little bit discombobulating.
I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, my partner is there and I can yo,
can't you know? This is what you know, what the
hell's going on? And he's like, yeah, right, you know,
you know what are you talking about? But it's never
happened to me at any other location. And like I say,
and I've been in all kinds of homicide cases, but
this is the only one I can really say that
I was touched. Well, I was there so much so
that I'll never forget it, you know. And then the
other thing about paranormal I don't really know. I mean,
I think it's sort of like there can be good
side and a bad side to it. And like I
told you when I didn't go back to Gacy's house.
I think I was lucky I didn't go, but I
was ready to go, you know, yeah I didn't.
Speaker 2: But just to ask a question, when you talk about
John Wayne Gaycy's kind of he really kind of I
think what I'm trying to say is he made some
bold moves in showing and sharing some experiences or things
that he had and inviting police officers and politicians and
to his home and to go to their home. Do
you think that was part of what he that part
of the thrill for him without a word.
Speaker 1: Sure, there's a power to knowing only you knowing what's
going on. I mean, serial killers will admit to homicides
and things like that when they know you know, okay,
But part of their game is and part of their
victory is I'm not going to tell you what I know.
You have to figure it out. Just like when he
was asked by one of the Displays policemen at the
time of his arrest, John, you know, are there more bodies?
Where are they buried? And John said to him quite frankly,
well that's your job to find them, you know. But
once they did identify the bodies that were being pulled out. Yeah,
he would admit to either killing there or having connection
to them, but he would also blame it on his accomplices. Okay.
And part of the problem for the city of Chicago
back in the seventies, and you could see that even
today repeating itself in almost any city. When you have
a guy like John Gacy who started killing in about
nineteen seventy two, all right, and he's not arrested until
December of seventy eight. The public wanted to know, how
did this guy continue for so long? All these kids
are going missing and you the police aren't connecting anything.
But things were different at that time. There were no
computers in Chicago, being the large city that it is,
was broken. The police were broken up into five different areas,
you know. So without the computers, if you were in
one area, you didn't know what was going on in
the other four. Okay, So Gacy was able to get
away with it. But yeah, they get a superiority thing
to them.
Speaker 5: They don't want to admit, they don't want to tell you. You
find out, you know, and that's why we still have
I think it's five bodies that have not yet been identified.
Speaker 1: Okay, But I'm working to identify, and I believe I
have connection to two more victims and two possible accomplices
that I'm working on at this time. Hopefully we'll have
an answer to that within the next couple of months.
But I've been instrumental in trying to get the police
to check out the building on Miami that Gacy was
in charge of. And the reason is, like I said,
I met them set four and I'm sure that because
my wife was pregnant with my second son, who wasn't
born until April of seventy four, and after I had
met him, of course at that house at one time,
and recognizing and knowing his connection to that building. One
evening about three AM, I'm driving and I have to
turn down Miami Avenue and go past that building to
turn into my alley behind my apartment. And as I
turned onto Miami Avenue, on my left side, walking up
between two park cars is John Gasey, and he's carrying
a long spaded shovel, not a garden hose, not a
bag of groceries, but exactly the tool you would need
to dig grapes, okay, And because I recognized him, I
stopped the car immediately, and I said, John, it's three
o'clock in the morning, what the hell are you you
doing here? I know he doesn't live there, but I
know he worked at the building. And he laughingly said, well, Bill,
you know, not enough hours in a day. You got
to get it done when you can't. And I went home.
He laughed, I laughed. I went home thought nothing of
it until years later when my wife calls me up
and says, Hey, turn onto the television. John Gasey's just
been arrested for murder. And then because I had I
remember the incident, and the police at the time were
of course trying to recover all the victims of Gaysey,
so they were asking the public for help, and I,
being a Chicago police officer, understood that the case was
being handled not by Displayings police who started the investigation,
but it was taken over by the Cook County Sheriff's Department.
So I called them and I told them about the
incident where I saw Gaysey with the shovel at three
o'clock in the morning, and I told him about the incident.
I told the guy I talked to her, I said, listen,
I'm a policeman for Chicago. I think maybe you should
go over to that building and talk to the people
who lived there or live there at that time and
see what they have to say. And the guy I'm
talking to me says, well, doorsh, you know, we got
enough bodies, we don't want anymore. Well, what else can
you do? I don't work for them, but I gave
them the information, and I found out later years later
that they never did go to that building to talk
to people, even though other people, including a policeman friend
of mine who lived in the basement apartment, also had
called to report it at the time of Casey's arrest,
and he was told basically the same thing, we don't
want any more bodies. And that apartment that this policeman
lived in in the building was an apartment that I
had often gone to, and because he was a friend
of mine and he was a policeman who worked in
the same district I did. And so when this policeman
and his family moved out of that apartment into their
very first home, I helped them move out. And after
he moved out, John Wayne Gacy's mother moved into that apartment,
which gives you even a stronger connection to that property
in Gaycy, but now we have a total of thirty
three bodies. But I have information from a radar scan
that was done that there was evidence of possibly more
bodies buried at that location in the city of Chicago
doesn't want to do anything about it.
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of this in your book, isn't
it the one that we referenced when we first started, Natalie,
I've been reading it over the space of four weeks.
I've been taking in however, not only absolutely smashed through
the book. And I'm sure Nott, have you've got any questions?
Speaker 1: Yeah, please, not questioned so much.
Speaker 4: But I just find it kind of sad, actually, you know,
like sad for that that when reading through your book,
I found it quite interesting, like you say that how
many things that could have caught him sooner got missed
because they went followed up on that.
Speaker 3: That's what I've tragic perhaps, and.
Speaker 1: That's in the book too. So much of that evidences
in a book. I mean, you got to think. I mean,
I'm a police investigator, but you don't have to be
an investigator to think. You got to hear you've got
a guy who's hiring young people, okay to work for him,
and now they're digging up bodies of all these young
people under the house and other vocations. Surely one of
the first things you want to do is find out
everybody that ever worked for him, to find out are
they still alive, or are they missing, or or have
they been talked to? And what I found out was
they didn't check on anybody. And one of those people,
one of those people that is an accomplice of Gasey
I believe, had a prior homicide arrest. Now, if you're
the investigator and you're going through the list of employees,
which the police did have, and you would be checking
everybody for your background, and you would want to talk
to everybody on that list, But certainly you're going to
be going to a guy who's got a prior homicide arrest.
But I can't walk these people.
Speaker 3: I was going to say, that's the thing that got me.
Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, it was pretty court and right that
Gaysey was the main murderer. But to have accomplices, I mean,
if you're not interested in catching them and putting them
behind bars, what's to stop them? You know, if Gaysey
took ideas from a previous serial killer, what's to stop
them from going on and doing the same thing themselves.
Speaker 1: That's that's a great question. He weren't from Correl a
lot all right, from Correl's arrest. But the thing about
Gasey is, uh, I'm trying to get my thought together here.
Your question again is by what what was your question? Okay?
So Naddy was that he's okay.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think what Natalie. I think what Naddie was
asking was John Wayne Gacy learned a lot from previous
serial killers. And if he's working alongside other accomplices and
they haven't been captured or held accountable.
Speaker 1: There's a I found a very good reason why. See
what happened is when Gasey got arrested. And if you
read the book, you will understand that the case ended
with the arrest of Gaycy. That should have been the
beginning of the investigation with Gaycy, okay, because Gaysey was
connecting with others to commit these crimes, and there was
one of the people who was one of his accomplices.
There were two main people that were involved in his case.
A boy named David Cram who was about nineteen or twenty,
who not only lived and worked with Gaycy, and brought
kids back to Gasey and a guy named Michael Rossi,
who was about nineteen at the time also who did
the same, lived with Gaycy for a period of time.
Both of them were having sex with Gaycy, and I
believe that's the control thing. Once they admittedly had sex
with Gaycy, he would use that against them and they
were brought into the same web with him. Okay, but
Cram committed suicide years later. Michael Rossi and Cram were
believed to be involved with Gaiysey at the time of
Gaysey's arrest, but they were in custody even all right
at the time of Gaysey's arrest. But what I learned
from Joe Cosensak, who was a lieutenant from Displains Police Department,
they were in charge of the original investigation of Gaysey
and a missing boy and it was through them that
they uncovered the first bodies and then Sheriff's department took
it over. But what what they found out was, well,
when I talked to Joe Cosensak, who headed the investigation,
we sat down, we had like three meetings. But he
told me because I said, why, you know, it seems
like these guys were involved. Why weren't they charged? That
was my question, She says, well, Bill, one day, the
day we had on in custody, thinking about charging them,
suddenly a woman came into our offices yelling about where's
my son Michael? All right? So that he went out
with the state's attorney. They both went out and talked
to the woman and she told them do you have
my son Michael Rossi here? And they said, yes, ma'am,
we have him here, and he's in serious trouble. And
she says, well, let me tell you this. If you
do not release my son Michael now, you will not
have a job tomorrow. That's a pretty brazen thing to
threaten people with. I'll tell you I probably have heard
that too during my police career several times. But Closes
told me. He says, well the obvious things. How are
you responding? Said, what are you talking about, lady? She says,
my son Michael is the grandson of Vito Marzullo, and
if you don't think I can take your job from you,
you're wrong. Well, Vito marzoul at that time, was the
second most powerful politician in the city of Chicago, so
his grandson, Michael Rossi who is a suspected accomplice of Gaysey,
went from being an accomplice to a witness against Gaycy.
It was never charged. But they had to do the
same for David Cram, even though Cram didn't have that connection.
But they couldn't just let Rossi go and not Cram,
so they used both of them ast witnesses against Gaysey.
Speaker 2: And I think this is a good kind of place
to kind of flow into your next book, because you
talk a little bit about corruption and police corruption, and
I know you'll obviously be able to explain the book
a lot better than me, so I'll hand over to you.
But there's also a recent article that will share that
you shared with me earlier with him regarding the era
yes and the releases of wrongly accused men.
Speaker 1: Right before, I want to tell you another brief story,
and this one is very personal to me about the paranormal. Okay,
I was blessed with having great parents. My father was
a World War Two veteran. He lost his right arm
in the invasion of Layte in the Philippines. He lost
his arm right about it at the shoulder. Great man
never complained about anything, had no enemies, all right. I
was blessed well. When my father died in his seventies
and I remarried. I was remarried again, and my wife
was from Europe, and I started going to Europe, and
I was always telling her about my father would always
tell me how much you wanted all his life to
go to Italy and Greece. He wanted to go to
the Mediterranean, he says, in my luck was what did
they do it? He sent me to the Philippines, Okay,
but he read everything about it. He read constantly about
the history of Rome and Greece and you know. And
so he had a ID badge from when he was
in this after the military, he worked for a US
Treasury department, okay, and his ID badge had his photo
and name on it. And I had that badge and
I had it since he died. And I kept telling
my wife, who was from Bulgaria, and I had been
coming to Bulgaria every year now, and we were going
to go to Greece, and we're going to obviously go
to the beach, you know this and that. So I
had always told her when I get to the Mediterranean,
I'm going to take that ID that he's got and
I'm going to bury it in the sand. My dad.
You got here, and she talked me out of it.
She said, no, no, it's too personal a thing. We'll go.
They're just you can think about your dad, but keep it.
It's a it's a unmmental that your dad would want
you to have. So we went to Greece. So my
wife is at the door. Later, excuse me just one second. Yes,
you're what, I'm on the air. Tell me it's all right.
Just tell me it's all right. I can't reach I
can't well, I'll call, I'll call later. And yeah, okay,
So a young man that helps me out with my
computers is trying to reach me. A great kid, Okay,
But anyway, we go to Greece for the very first trip.
Put our bags in the hotel room, grab our blankets
and stuff and chairs, and we walked down to the sand.
I started. We put the stuff down on the on
the on the sand. The chairs are set up, the
blankets are set up, and I'm looking into my swimsuit
to the water, and I'm just about it the water
and I stopped, and I turned to my left and
walking towards me in a group of maybe three four people.
Was a man who was about the age of my
father when he died somewhere, thin build and the hair
and face not looking like my dad, but the physical
structure characteristics. And he's missing his right arm at the shoulder.
And he walked within feet of me, and I froze
and I turned and then I looked at my wife,
and my wife was looking at at him too, at me,
and I walked over to her and I says, did
you see that? And she says, yes, yes, and I
swear to got it. We both looked and we didn't
see him.
Speaker 3: Anymore in the group, so he got there.
Speaker 1: Then that's what I said.
Speaker 3: Wow, it was.
Speaker 1: A good thing, you know. It was a good thing,
you know. I mean, I couldn't believe it, but that
was the thing. That's why I mentioned to you, I
think there's a good site to it, in a bad
side to the paranormal, you know, but he wanted me
to know, and that's the way I felt.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds like it's like saying the fact that
your wife saw him as well, you know.
Speaker 1: And then we all saw that he was not there anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: No, it's crazy how things like that happened, and like
you say, when somebody else sees it as well, you
can't really doubt it the same way because you're like, well, we.
Speaker 1: Figured out because we shared the whole venture. I guess
maybe that's why she was part of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it could be. Yeah, it was like a message
to both of you in a way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, let me get onto govera Okay.
Like I started earlier being a Chicago policeman, I loved
the job, okay, being a homicide detective. I really I
thought I was good at what I did. Okay, but
I worked with a lot of very good police officers,
great police officers. I mean during my career, I think,
what is it. I think there were eighty two police
officers in Chicago that were killed in duty. Okay, so
it's a risky job. I had my own shootings and
I survived them, okay, but in the police department. And
this started even before I became a policeman. When I
was thinking about being a policeman. My father's uncle, who
had been a career Chicago policeman, owned a resort in
northern Wisconsin, and I was up there with friends and
I told him I was going to go on the
police department. He said, here, here's a beer sit down.
I want to tell you something. He said, this is
very important. You should know this. Be careful on the
police department. Pick good partners because not all of them
are there for the same reason you are. Okay, And
that was good advice, all right. So, I mean during
my career, I learned every day. You know, maybe I
saw what was good or saw something that was bad,
but I didn't repeat anything that was bad. And I
stayed away from the trouble guys, the guys that I thought,
you know, you might have a suspicion about them, but
you thought that was enough to not want to work
with them. But when I was a detective at Area
five in nineteen ninety four, well that's when I retired.
But the problem was in the nineties, we had so
many homicides in Chicago. Was known as the murder capital
of the United States. Okay, And there's one thing about homicide.
You can't stop them. You can't put a policeman on
every corner. The homicides are going to happen. But according
to the people who run the city, you got to
solve cases because it looks real bad. If you're getting
nine hundred and thirty murders and you're not solving cases,
so you got to make arrests. And so I believe
it was in my book people will find out that
was sort of like a trade off. There was a
group of policemen coming mostly out of the fourteenth District
and gang crimes, that were putting homicide cases on people
who were innocent and sending these people to prison on
false evidence. And they were in prison for twenty twenty
five years and more before they were out. Okay. One
of them, Joe Manchinowski, who I knew from Gang Unit.
He's still he's serving life in prison in the Federal penitentiary,
convicted of his involvement with the Games. Because what they
were doing is they were intimidating the gangs, and they
were telling the gangs, you're going to cooperate with us,
and you're going to pay us from your narcotic sales,
and we'll give you protection for that. Okay, So they
were getting money from these gangs. But the way they
were bringing the gangs in, you know, these gangs they
didn't want to jump in there with the police. They
didn't want to do that. Excuse me, I got the
young man here right now. One second, I don't go ahead,
Oh no, turn, turn. I'm doing my podcast right now,
so I got I'm in the middle of it. I'll
quite tomorrow, but everything's okay. No, go ahead, thank you, sir.
I am blessed here in Greece and Bulgaria. My ballgame
airing in the cyrillic alphabet are not good for me, okay.
But most of these young people here, they're multi lingual,
and they so many of them, the vast majority of
them speak English, and most of them are so good
with computers, and that's where I really need them. So
I'm blessed to have a guy like this who takes
enough time out of this busy night to come see
if I'm doing okay. So I'm happy with that, you know.
But getting back to this, what was going on with them?
They were getting they were able to. They would go
to a gang that they wanted to get money from
and control, all right, and tell them you give us
money or you're gonna get you're gonna have trouble. So
what they would do is they would send a message
to the gang leaders and they would put a there
would be a homicide, and then they would pick out
somebody from that gang and put a false case against
them with false witnesses, get them convicted, and send them
the prison. That would force the gang to say, oh,
we better join with these guys or we're going to
go down. And it was going on for years. Okay, Well,
in nineteen ninety when I was a detective, I was
aware of this group and I was suspicious of what
they were doing with no real proof. But then one
evening we had a homicide that was maybe a month
or six weeks old. Are we running out of time here? Girls?
Speaker 2: We have about five minutes, so it'd be great to
know where I know we'll be leaving on a bit
of a cliffhanger. Be great to know because this book
hasn't been released yet, has it, So it'd be great
to know about the release dates and where everyone can
find your books as it stands, and also your podcast
that we haven't even mentioned yet, so where they be
able to find you otherwise?
Speaker 1: Well, I've been working with Bob Mada on his Defense
Diary podcasts, and unfortunately I was doing that for a
very long time. When we have a lot of episodes
up online about Gacy and now my second book, But
unfortunately Bob ran off to be involved in a more
recent homicide trial and we haven't been able to connect
for about five weeks because of his involvement. Now he's
in a podcast business and he's got to keep these
people rolling, so I understand it. But whether we'll reconnect
or not, I don't know. But let me get back
to what happened. I'll try to be as quick as
I can with Guevera and company because he was not
alone right now. The Govera was a gang crime's officer
who came into our office one evening with two young
boys about fifteen years old, who we said were witnesses
to this older homicide, which we had no clue in
the world. The only thing we knew from the witness
in the car, a young girl, was that the occupants
who were the shooters were in a large white car.
Nothing else. And suddenly he appears with two witnesses and
he tells our boss that the two kids were close
enough to the homicide shooting that they were able to
write down the license plate number of the car and
they can identify the people in the car. Well, that's
great news, but my boss says, Bill, you know pick
it up. But when I first of all, I'm saying,
wait a minute, you're telling me that these two kids
at two three o'clock in the morning are witnessed his
homicide and they're so close to it that they had
a piece of paper and a pen on them and
they wrote down the license plate number. And now four
to six weeks later, when these two gang crimes officers
stopped him, one of them still has that piece of
paper in his pocket. I don't believe it. They never
talked to the police, but the guy I was told
to follow it up, and I ran the plate, found
out who owned the car, found out that dead young
man that owned the car did have a gun arrest. Okay,
so yeah, kind of have to get a picture of them,
and I sent Golvera and his partner down the headquarters
to get the photo, and I keep the boys with me.
When Govera comes back, he wants to take the photo
right into the boys, and I stopped them. I said, no,
give the photo to me, and I grabbed a group
of other photos, put them together and took the boys
and Govera and this partner came into the room also,
and before I showed the boys the photos. I said, listen,
you said you saw the homicide, and you're close enough
you're gonna look at some photos. But just because you're
looking at photos, it doesn't mean that the people you
saw are in these photos. So don't don't pick out
somebody you I don't want you to try to make
me happy. I only want you to identify someone if
that's the person you saw. If not, it's not them,
don't worry about it. So I call one kid up
to look at the five or six photos, and he's
not picking anybody out of it. Carry And then after
a little bit of time, Gulvera reaches out and puts
his finger right on one of the photos, and the kid goes, oh, yeah, yeah,
that's him. That's him. I was going to say it
with him, but maybe the hair or something looks a
little different. And I said right away, Gulvera, get out,
and I told the other the kid, to get out.
That was a mistake. I should have separated them, but
I sent them both out together. I mix up the photos,
had the second kid come up, and he looks at photos.
He can't identify anybody, all right, So anyway, I've got
one identification that I don't like, and my boss tells
me call the state's attorney. And of course, when the
state's attorney comes down and I tell him what happened,
he says, you have one identification you need. We need
a lineup. So we did a lineup the next day.
And I'm rushing through this now. We did a lineup
the next day, and of course the kid that had
the photo pointed out to him. He can pick the
guy out of a lineup, and the second kid can't.
All right, But the state's attorney says, well, we got
one id charge them. So we paid the kid down
to the lock up and put them in a lockup
to be processed and go to court. And the father
of the boy comes into the station looking for his
son because he was he warned we had taken his
son in to talk to him. And he said, you
know my son, what murder. He's a good kid. He
works at a grocery store, a drug store, and he
goes to night school. He's not in the game. I said,
but sir, he's got a gun arrest. How did that happen?
And he said, well, talk to my son. Why. I
talked to the kid and I verified it later through
policemen and other things, they had found a gun in
the alley, and he thought, because of other kids, I'm
not going to leave it here. He threw in the
trunk of his car and later got stopped by the
police and they found a gun, all right, so he
got charged. But anyway, now, I didn't like the way
the identification went down, and I told the father, just
go to court tomorrow. We have to pick up the
two boy witnesses, and I'm going to pick them up
without the two policemen, and I'm going to talk to
him again. And when I met with the boys, I
told him picked up one right away, the one that
made the identification. I said, listen, I don't like it
the way this went down. I don't believe any of it.
I don't believe you had a piece of paper and pen.
I don't believe you still have the paper on you
when you got to stop by the police. Something's wrong.
Do you really want to put an innocent person in
jail for murder for something he didn't do. And the
kids it said, we weren't there, we never saw it,
but we're afraid of these policemen. And they told us,
say needed our help in a homicide case, and they
told us to they needed us to help it. So
he says, we did what we did and they paid
us twenty dollars a piece for doing it, and the
other kid verified the same thing. So anyway, I took
the two boys down to the court for the first
appearance of this kid who arrested the night before. I
told the state's attorneys what happened. They talked to the
two kids and they said, we're going to release them
from court. Took the two boys home and if I
had to get the guy out that night because after
that first appearance, he was going to be stuck in
jail for years until this was the earrings, you know.
But I got on released. I came back to my
office and waiting for me was my boss and other supervisors.
And the first words out of him mount were doors,
what the frick are you doing? We're never going to
solve this case. So I said, so, you want me
to put an innocent kid in jail for murder he
didn't do, so, you can clear a homicide and I
was ordered not to write any reports. And after that,
a few years later, after watching what was still going
on and trying to avoid all the connection to these
bad cops, I left the police department. I could have
stayed in another twelve thirteen years, but I left, and
years later, doing my work as a private investigator and
connecting with the INNESIS projects, I told them about this,
and through my testimony as civil and federal courts, I
have now helped to get over forty people exagerated who
are all in jail for murders.
Speaker 2: Amazing, and this journey has all been documented in your book,
isn't it. So when does that? When does your book
get released?
Speaker 1: It will be out the exact date I'm not sure.
I'm not finishing the editing right now, but I'm hoping
for January, end of January.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well when once it's Once it's published, we'll make
sure to share it. And we've we've come to the
end of the podcast. Thank you so much for telling
us all about your experiences in your journeys paranormalan otherwise,
it's been really interesting.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Was indeed a pleasure, Natalie Gary who was a pleasure,
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was very interesting. Thank you and the.
Speaker 1: Future will meet again, I hope maybe in June.
Speaker 2: In June I'll be there, bells on and I'll have
a copy of the book your next I'm hoping.
Speaker 1: To get the for you, and I'm trying to get
the presentation on the stage.
Speaker 2: Okay, fantastic both.
Speaker 1: And for the Gulvera cases. And with the Gulovera cases,
I'm going to bring in a fantastic attorney who I've
worked with to get these kids exonerated and a film
producer who I've worked with for six years who's going
to have a documentary coming out on it.
Speaker 2: Perfect. I'll be at the front, right, I'll be there.
Speaker 3: What thank you.
Speaker 2: We're going to say thank you for everyone that's joined
us this evening. Thank you for listening. Yeah, good night,
thank you.
Speaker 1: I love the one and I can't wait to go back.
Speaker 3: Oh you back, We'll see you.
Speaker 1: Thank you by that
Speaker 2: Stop