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Speaker 1: You're listening to set the Sanctum on the parallel with

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UK radially.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome. I am Kerrie Anne, and you are listening

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to Seventh Sanctum and this evening I'm being joined with Natalie.

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Speaker 3: Hello.

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Speaker 4: I was going to say this, this dark and rainy,

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miserable UK evening.

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Speaker 3: I don't know about everybody else, but it's horrible here.

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Speaker 2: I thrive. I thrive in this weather. I live for

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this weather, the rain and the storm, and the crows

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and trees and.

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Speaker 1: Things experience being in London there at the Claim kind

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and I'll tell you I felt blessed. The weather was

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only bad. I think one day, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, it was really warm as well, considering the time

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of year, it was a really.

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Speaker 1: So I'll bring you some more good weather. How's that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm also going to be there in June. I've

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already got my tickets. I'm really excited. So yeah, we'll

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institution you William. Thank you so much for joining us.

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Usually when we invite guests on, we like to hear

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a little bit about you and your journey so far.

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So could we just get like a bit of an

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over over view?

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Speaker 1: Okay? Well, I'm born and raised Chicago kid. Grew up

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in a very good neighborhood in Chicago, not pretty much

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crime free, went to very good high schools and college

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and so forth. Never thinking that I was going to

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be in law enforcement. I started out in marketing, and

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after a couple of years of ED, I grew very

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quickly got tired of the same repetitive things that I

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was doing, and I took the police exam and I

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came out of the police department in nineteen seventy and

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like everyone else, I was assigned to uniform patrol. But

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that didn't last long, and I'm glad it didn't because

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when you're in uniform, you're tied to that police radio,

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You're dressed in uniform and a uniform car, and everybody

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sees you. Okay. I wanted to do real crime, and

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I was fortunate. After about a year, I was asked

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to go into a plain, close tactical unit, which specialized

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in crimes, active crime work on the street, gangs, narcotics,

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and responding to all crimes of violence. And so I

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went with that for all the first part of my career,

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worked in the gang units, and then was assigned as

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a new detective and worked in the area five, which

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was the western part of Chicago, involved some very very

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heavy crime areas, and it was my place of choice.

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And while in my career as a policeman, I was

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in a policeman from nineteen seventy and I left the

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department in nineteen ninety four, so I had about twenty

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five years in and along the way I met some

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tremendously great police officers who mentored me and I was

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very happy to have that association with them. But then again,

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like most professions, there's always some that you are a

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little leiri of, okay, and in Chicago, having a few

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bad cops amongst the group, that wasn't so unusual. But

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I took note of it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's quite interesting. I don't want to

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get to ahead of myself, actually, but you do have

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a new book coming out, isn't it, Regarding this, so

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our first journey, first time we met was at Crime Con,

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which was in London. I come and got my book

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signed by you, the John John Wayne Gacy book that

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you offered.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, that would be Omnipotent Don't Ask, Don't Tell,

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And it's available on Amazon, okay, and I was very

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happy it sold very well at the convention, and I

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had a lot of people like yourself who came up

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with questions. And that's what I really wanted to get

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the connection to you or anybody who had an interest

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in the case.

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Speaker 2: And it is a really interesting case. And before we

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whilst we were waiting to get a long we were

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discussing about how everyday people can seem unseemly and how

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actually that's one of the main components of being able

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to get away with things for as long as he

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did well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and John Wayne Gacy was the most notorious serial

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killer and ship in the country at the time. I mean,

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what happened was in nineteen seventy four. I was a

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tactical officer and a police officer for only four years.

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My wife came home from work one day. She had

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been worked for an insurance company. John Gasey was running

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a very good construction company, remodeling constructions, thing like that,

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and he was very successful. And she came home one

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day and said, Bill, this guy John Gasey, who does

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work for the insurance company, invited us over to his home.

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So she had never probably even mentioned his name before.

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But I did go with my one son at the time,

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and we met with John Gacy, his wife, and his

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second wife and the two daughters he had, and we

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spent five six hours there and you know, I had

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a good time, a good meal, you know, a lot

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of conversation. Nothing really well, well I'll get to that

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in a minute. But you know, it's like I was

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telling you before, you go through life, you meet people

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and at the time you meet them, there's nothing remarkable

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about remarkable about them, you know, and then you wake

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up one morning and you turn onto the television center,

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you pick up for the newspaper and see, oh my god,

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this guy's in the news. Well, John Annoyne Gacy in

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nineteen seventy eight in December is big time news, not

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only in Chicago but throughout the nation because every read,

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single day, they're digging up more and more bodies from

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underneath his home. And there was a total of thirty

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three bodies that were attributed to him uncovered, most of

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them uncovered underneath the home, two more on the property,

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and then four he dumped in a river after he

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was running out of space to bury them. So you know,

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who wouldn't you know I had all these hours in

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his house where there was no I. I had no

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sense that he was a killer. But that's why he

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was successful. Serial killers nobody sees the evil in them,

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you know. They just connect with people and people liked them.

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And he was well liked. He was really he connected

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even in the political circle in Chicago, and he was

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an alderman and he was familiar with all the politicians.

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He was doing work for them at their home. You know,

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you know, you know, you need a little work at

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the house. I got a crew, we'll come out, we'll

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do the work. We won't even charge it, don't worry

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about it, you know, that kind of thing. So people

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really like John Gaycy, all right. But now when he's

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making the news, all these politicians that had attended his

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parties at his house, and he had at times big

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yard parties with two three hundred people. I mean I

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was only in his house at one time at one time.

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But these other people, these politicians that were going to

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these big parties. After Gaycy's in the news, everybody's wanted

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to distance themselves from him, you know, so straight up

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denial that they knew him, Most of them, you know,

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afraid that they were connected to Gaycy. In any way.

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I mean, this is a notorious serial killer. But I

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because I had been at his house, I knew him.

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But in the conversation we had, you know, you meet

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people for the first time and you start talking about

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where do you live, your education, friends, things like that.

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And the one question he asked me said, well, where

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do you live, Bill? And I said, I live in Chicago,

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John right near were two streets intersected. He says, really,

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he says, you know, there's a building on Miami Avenue.

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I do the maintenance work over there. And I knew

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the building when he told me. It was on Miami Avenue,

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and it was about two buildings away from the apartment

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I was living in. And every time I would drive,

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we would park the car in the back. Every time

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I would exit from my house and drive through the alley,

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I'd be driving directly at the front of that building. Now,

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before I met him, if he had been there, I

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never paid any attention to him. I had no reason to.

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If he was there, you know, I didn't take any

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he noticed. But after I met him at his house,

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he uh, he was familiar to me. So occasionally when

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I'd be walking my dog or coming with the car.

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I see him there and at times he had young

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men with him. I had brief conversations with him, you know,

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nothing big. We had met, had a good time at

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the house, but we didn't connect as friends, you know.

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I mean the day that I was there for that

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first meeting, before I left, he invited me back to

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his house, said, Bill, come on back, have a few beers. Also,

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I forgot to tell you. While I was at the

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house that night, we like I said, we had dinner,

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we played a little pool, we sat at the bar.

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My wife was with his wife.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: He approached me and he pulled out a pair of

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handcuffs and he said, can I show you a trick? Bill?

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And I said, John, I was in the police training

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academy for six months. Every day I had handcuffs put

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on me, and I was putting them on other people.

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I know the trick, John, you have to have the key.

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So he took the he took the cuffs and put

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them away, and then he came out with a handgun,

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a revolver, and he wanted to show me that. And

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I said, John, there's kids here. I have guns all

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the time. I've got a gun on me right now.

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I don't play with guns, especially with children, are allowed.

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So I said put it away, and he did, okay,

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But he invited me back to the house, said, you know,

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come on, stop buying. Well, we'll have a beer and

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watch a ballgame or something, you know. And not long

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after that he we had need of some work repair

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work done in our apartment and the landowner, department owner,

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told my wife, if you know somebody can fix it,

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have them do it and send us the bill. So

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she approached Gasey, and Gasey came out to the house

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and he brought a young boy or man with him,

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about seventeen eight. Team. He told him and instructed him

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how to do the work, and he said, I'm going

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to leave him here to do the work. I'll come

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back in a couple hours and pick him up. And

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when he came back to pick up the boy, the

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work was done well. We had all went outside, and

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before he left, he invited me again to come to

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his house. Same thing. And I do remember shortly after

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that there was an evening where I thought maybe I'll

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go there, you know, I thought, well, maybe I'll just

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drive over to John's house and see what's going on.

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But I didn't you know, and then might have saved

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my life because who knows he knew I was a policeman,

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all right, but I don't know he's a killer, all right.

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So if I was in his house thinking it was

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going to be a friendly meeting and he suddenly pulled

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out that gun, I'm at a loss already. But I

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didn't go. And this is a little bit we're going

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to talk about the paranormal. Okay. During my lifetime, I

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have experienced some mysterious things related to the dark side,

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but I've also experienced situations like where I didn't go

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to Gaycy as maybe an intervention and see. And even

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before Gaysey, there was another thing. Like I told you,

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I grew up in a great neighborhood in Chicago. I

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mean we had forest preserves, rivers, golf courses, you know,

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a block away from me. Well, in nineteen fifty five,

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I had two brothers, Tony and John Schusler. They were

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eleven or twelve and fourteen years old at the time.

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They lived one block away from where I did City Street,

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and I would go to their house often, go in

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the house play. Other kids would come and play, and

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then one Sunday I believe it was. I was with

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them and some other kids, and we were congregated around

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that Sunday, but I went home all right. Later that day,

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the two Shoster boys and a third boy named Peterson,

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who I didn't know, had gone downtown to a movie

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theater and they never returned home. They were found a

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day or two later, naked and dead in a local

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forest preserve. In that case, the Shoster Peterson case was

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a notorious, well known case. It remained unsolved until nineteen

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ninety four, and I was present for the offender who

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killed those three kids. Is on that day, my last

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day of work. I retired the next day. I didn't

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solve the case. It was actually solved by a couple

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HTF agents from federal government who got information while doing

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something else. But they had to come to Chicago because

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that's where the murder case was, and of course I

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knew everything about the case. So he was arrested and

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later Kenny Hansen, who was one of the two offenders,

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got three hundred years in prison and died in prison.

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00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,799
But there was, you know, I don't know if that

240
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,440
was an intervention. I didn't go with them to the theater,

241
00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:41,960
you know, But I was with them that morning, and

242
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:47,360
then there's there's you know, the witchess thing. Okay, that's

243
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,120
of interest if you want to go to the dark side.

244
00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:53,000
This is how this goes down. I was in a

245
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,879
gang unit at the time, and this had to be

246
00:15:55,879 --> 00:16:02,840
in there about nineteen eighty five, and of course, being

247
00:16:02,879 --> 00:16:09,120
in gangs, were interested in them because the guns and narcotics. Okay, Well,

248
00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:12,840
we had information in the black community there was a

249
00:16:12,919 --> 00:16:16,519
black woman, older black woman who is known in the

250
00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:21,399
community as a witch. They all said, this woman has

251
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:27,000
evil in her, she has these witch like powers. And

252
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,320
we only were interested in her because the information we

253
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,960
were receiving from informansts was that she was stocking the

254
00:16:35,039 --> 00:16:40,519
guns and narcotics for the local gang in her home. Okay,

255
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,200
So the gang unit that I was in we went

256
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:49,279
there and conducted search warrant that day and we found

257
00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:53,799
some guns in narcotics the inventory, and I noticed that

258
00:16:53,840 --> 00:17:00,360
she had several books on witchcraft. Okay, you know book

259
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:05,640
in particular it was about it was really interesting, it

260
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,880
was it appeared to be old and it was something

261
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:16,759
the title somewhat about curses and spells. Okay, and my

262
00:17:16,799 --> 00:17:19,559
wife at the time, she had an interest at and

263
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,880
I thought, well, you know, okay, nobody's going to miss

264
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,920
this book amongst the books she's got. So I met.

265
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:32,160
I took that book home, and I don't even know

266
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,960
if I said anything to my wife about it, but

267
00:17:35,079 --> 00:17:39,480
that evening, with a book in the house, my two

268
00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:42,720
sons now went to had gone to bed. I had

269
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,119
gone up say good night, turned off the television set

270
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,440
in the bedroom, went downstairs to join my wife to

271
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,880
watch television. And later that night, all of a sudden

272
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,160
we hear thunder, flashes of lightning, and all of a sudden,

273
00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:03,319
the house is shaking, and I'm smelling smoke, all right,

274
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,839
And then I look. I run upstairs to the kids

275
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,160
room and the television that I had turned on, I

276
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,920
mean off, it's on, but as I'm watching it, it's

277
00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,400
slowly phades away, but I'm smelling smoke. I had to

278
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,519
call the fire department and they came out and my

279
00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:27,279
TV antenna on the roof had been struck by lightning

280
00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:30,559
and the wires connected to it down into the house.

281
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,799
Anything connected to the TV, like the video recorders and

282
00:18:35,839 --> 00:18:40,319
stuff like that, they were all burned out and would

283
00:18:40,319 --> 00:18:43,920
have to be replaced. And I was shaken and glad

284
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,880
that the fire department was there. And I'm telling the

285
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,559
fire department man, what the hell the lightning? You know,

286
00:18:48,759 --> 00:18:52,200
why is it hit my house? And the guys going lightning, thunder?

287
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,000
What are you talking about? And there was no rain,

288
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,839
but it was lightning to hit the antenna. And I

289
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,200
thought to itself.

290
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,640
Speaker 3: When they say there wasn't any lightning then, or that

291
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,079
they weren't aware of any.

292
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,039
Speaker 1: No, none, But we were inside the house and we

293
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,519
had evidence from the damage. There was no doubts if

294
00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:19,400
the antenna had hit got hit by lightning.

295
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,839
Speaker 3: So inside it sounded like there was thunder and lightning,

296
00:19:23,839 --> 00:19:28,000
but outside nobody was aware of and we weren't running.

297
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,400
Speaker 1: We weren't running to the window to look out the

298
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,599
window until suddenly the whole house shook and the TVs

299
00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:40,319
went out. All right, So the I mean the fire department,

300
00:19:40,319 --> 00:19:41,960
that guys are looking at me like I'm a little

301
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,480
whack of except they can't deny that the house got

302
00:19:44,519 --> 00:19:45,240
hit by lightning.

303
00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 3: Yeah.

304
00:19:46,839 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: Wow, we got to put into insures, claim to have

305
00:19:49,319 --> 00:19:52,200
everything repaired. But here it even gets a little better.

306
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,599
And this is really wacky. And I still to this

307
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,920
day don't know what. I took the book and I

308
00:19:58,039 --> 00:20:01,119
threw it through it. I played, sit into my garage

309
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,519
where we park our two cars. Okay, I live in

310
00:20:04,559 --> 00:20:09,000
a great neighborhood. No crime. Okay, next morning, wake up.

311
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:15,599
Somebody had broken into my garage and they stole the

312
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:21,000
radio out of my wife's car and damaged the console.

313
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,799
All right, so I said, you know the lightning. Now

314
00:20:25,799 --> 00:20:29,759
I get this. I took the book and I walked

315
00:20:29,759 --> 00:20:32,200
down the alley to where the old Italian guy lived.

316
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,279
There was always a pain in the neck and always

317
00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:37,079
complain about everything. And I threw the book in his

318
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:42,680
garbage can. That night, the garbage canon was on fire

319
00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:49,039
and part of his garage burned. They swear my wife

320
00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:54,279
would tell you to unbelievable, And I thought, it's got

321
00:20:54,319 --> 00:20:57,400
to be this book. You know, I didn't have any

322
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,480
proof except occurrences. They can't be exploed, and I didn't

323
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,519
want anything more to do with it. But throughout my

324
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:13,039
police career, you know paranormal occurrences, things that are seem

325
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:20,319
unseemly or unexplained. You know, it's not something that's repeated

326
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,200
or I don't think you a person sees often or

327
00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:26,920
like you hear a haunted houses where people may be

328
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,440
in a house and things move and stuff like that. Well,

329
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,759
I'm not going to discredit them because I wasn't there, okay,

330
00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:39,000
But I've been to a lot of homicide scenes, okay,

331
00:21:39,039 --> 00:21:42,119
and I've seen everything from the little children, groups of

332
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:47,880
people killed in any way imaginable. Okay. It's my job

333
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,599
of choice. It was something I was good at, and

334
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,039
I was not disturbed by anything. But we did have

335
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,400
a case of an elderly Polish woman who lived in

336
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:04,119
a two flags apartment building that she owned, and the

337
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,880
one apartment was vacant. She lived on the first floor

338
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,960
by herself, and she was found murdered inside her apartment,

339
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,319
all right. She had to be about eighty some years

340
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:20,759
old at the time. And when me and my partner

341
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:23,880
got assigned to that case and we came there, the

342
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,440
police were already there, of course, and they had secured

343
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,480
the scene, so forth and so on, and we went

344
00:22:29,519 --> 00:22:33,359
in and going about the course of our business looking

345
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,440
for evidence, and of course part of your evidences is

346
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,880
a victim her body, okay. So we witnessed that she

347
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:47,200
had been battered about the head and killed, and she

348
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,279
had been disrobed from the waist down, all right, and

349
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,079
somebody had placed the red rose that came from some

350
00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:00,640
artificial flowers in the house on her bare back side,

351
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,240
all right. And as we're standing there with my no

352
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,759
pad in hand and pen in my hand, I swear

353
00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:11,319
to God never ever before happened to me at any

354
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,839
other crime scene. But I felt a hand go from

355
00:23:15,839 --> 00:23:19,960
one side on my shoulder and slowly drag itself across

356
00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:23,799
to the other side. And it freaked me out. I mean,

357
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:26,480
it's like whoa, and my partner's there and it's not

358
00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:31,079
happening to him. But again later in the same apartment,

359
00:23:31,079 --> 00:23:34,400
while we're still there, I forgot this feeling again of

360
00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:40,160
somebody touching me. And I've never had that before, you know,

361
00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:46,079
But that was the most just settling. I mean, it

362
00:23:46,799 --> 00:23:49,319
didn't freak me out because I mean I've seen everything,

363
00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:52,200
you know, I've been involved in shootings, I've done all

364
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:57,119
this other kind of police work, and I don't get

365
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,640
unnerved very easily. But it wasn't an evil thing. It's

366
00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:08,640
just a presence that I assumed, and I gotta say

367
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,599
I assumed it because there's no proof, you know, But

368
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:19,240
in that one pace, I believe what I felt there

369
00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:23,000
was no explanation other than I'm being touched.

370
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 2: And I think that sometimes that when we compare, you know,

371
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,920
being able to have that experience and police work. Everything

372
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,200
is very objective, isn't it. What is can be disputed

373
00:24:36,319 --> 00:24:44,079
beyond doubt, whereas paranormals whe paranormal experiences are so subjective

374
00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:46,960
and there's no way of measuring it either. So it's

375
00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:50,319
quite to be those two have a foot in both

376
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,640
roles at one time. Must have been a little bit discombobulating.

377
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,319
I guess, yeah.

378
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,839
Speaker 1: I mean, my partner is there and I can yo,

379
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,000
can't you know? This is what you know, what the

380
00:25:02,039 --> 00:25:04,720
hell's going on? And he's like, yeah, right, you know,

381
00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:08,759
you know what are you talking about? But it's never

382
00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:14,519
happened to me at any other location. And like I say,

383
00:25:14,559 --> 00:25:17,160
and I've been in all kinds of homicide cases, but

384
00:25:17,319 --> 00:25:19,240
this is the only one I can really say that

385
00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:22,799
I was touched. Well, I was there so much so

386
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,960
that I'll never forget it, you know. And then the

387
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:34,200
other thing about paranormal I don't really know. I mean,

388
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,640
I think it's sort of like there can be good

389
00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:40,359
side and a bad side to it. And like I

390
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,680
told you when I didn't go back to Gacy's house.

391
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:45,720
I think I was lucky I didn't go, but I

392
00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:49,119
was ready to go, you know, yeah I didn't.

393
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 2: But just to ask a question, when you talk about

394
00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:01,279
John Wayne Gaycy's kind of he really kind of I

395
00:26:01,319 --> 00:26:03,400
think what I'm trying to say is he made some

396
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:08,000
bold moves in showing and sharing some experiences or things

397
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,359
that he had and inviting police officers and politicians and

398
00:26:12,839 --> 00:26:14,640
to his home and to go to their home. Do

399
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,480
you think that was part of what he that part

400
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:21,680
of the thrill for him without a word.

401
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:30,039
Speaker 1: Sure, there's a power to knowing only you knowing what's

402
00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:35,559
going on. I mean, serial killers will admit to homicides

403
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,920
and things like that when they know you know, okay,

404
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,559
But part of their game is and part of their

405
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,599
victory is I'm not going to tell you what I know.

406
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,680
You have to figure it out. Just like when he

407
00:26:49,759 --> 00:26:52,160
was asked by one of the Displays policemen at the

408
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,119
time of his arrest, John, you know, are there more bodies?

409
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,559
Where are they buried? And John said to him quite frankly,

410
00:27:00,039 --> 00:27:04,559
well that's your job to find them, you know. But

411
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,839
once they did identify the bodies that were being pulled out. Yeah,

412
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:12,319
he would admit to either killing there or having connection

413
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:18,240
to them, but he would also blame it on his accomplices. Okay.

414
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:22,039
And part of the problem for the city of Chicago

415
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,960
back in the seventies, and you could see that even

416
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,200
today repeating itself in almost any city. When you have

417
00:27:28,279 --> 00:27:31,400
a guy like John Gacy who started killing in about

418
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,880
nineteen seventy two, all right, and he's not arrested until

419
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,839
December of seventy eight. The public wanted to know, how

420
00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:45,640
did this guy continue for so long? All these kids

421
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,079
are going missing and you the police aren't connecting anything.

422
00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:53,799
But things were different at that time. There were no

423
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,480
computers in Chicago, being the large city that it is,

424
00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:02,400
was broken. The police were broken up into five different areas,

425
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,400
you know. So without the computers, if you were in

426
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,240
one area, you didn't know what was going on in

427
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:12,200
the other four. Okay, So Gacy was able to get

428
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:18,039
away with it. But yeah, they get a superiority thing

429
00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:18,400
to them.

430
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,319
Speaker 5: They don't want to admit, they don't want to tell you. You

431
00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:25,359
find out, you know, and that's why we still have

432
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,720
I think it's five bodies that have not yet been identified.

433
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: Okay, But I'm working to identify, and I believe I

434
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,599
have connection to two more victims and two possible accomplices

435
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,920
that I'm working on at this time. Hopefully we'll have

436
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,480
an answer to that within the next couple of months.

437
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:53,160
But I've been instrumental in trying to get the police

438
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,359
to check out the building on Miami that Gacy was

439
00:28:56,359 --> 00:28:59,160
in charge of. And the reason is, like I said,

440
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,559
I met them set four and I'm sure that because

441
00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:03,960
my wife was pregnant with my second son, who wasn't

442
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,640
born until April of seventy four, and after I had

443
00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:13,759
met him, of course at that house at one time,

444
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,319
and recognizing and knowing his connection to that building. One

445
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:22,839
evening about three AM, I'm driving and I have to

446
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,799
turn down Miami Avenue and go past that building to

447
00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:30,160
turn into my alley behind my apartment. And as I

448
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,440
turned onto Miami Avenue, on my left side, walking up

449
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:40,160
between two park cars is John Gasey, and he's carrying

450
00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:44,920
a long spaded shovel, not a garden hose, not a

451
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,119
bag of groceries, but exactly the tool you would need

452
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,799
to dig grapes, okay, And because I recognized him, I

453
00:29:53,839 --> 00:29:57,319
stopped the car immediately, and I said, John, it's three

454
00:29:57,359 --> 00:30:00,160
o'clock in the morning, what the hell are you you

455
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,079
doing here? I know he doesn't live there, but I

456
00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:05,720
know he worked at the building. And he laughingly said, well, Bill,

457
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:08,160
you know, not enough hours in a day. You got

458
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,839
to get it done when you can't. And I went home.

459
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,440
He laughed, I laughed. I went home thought nothing of

460
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,119
it until years later when my wife calls me up

461
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,079
and says, Hey, turn onto the television. John Gasey's just

462
00:30:22,119 --> 00:30:27,480
been arrested for murder. And then because I had I

463
00:30:27,559 --> 00:30:31,000
remember the incident, and the police at the time were

464
00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:35,440
of course trying to recover all the victims of Gaysey,

465
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,200
so they were asking the public for help, and I,

466
00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:44,119
being a Chicago police officer, understood that the case was

467
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,960
being handled not by Displayings police who started the investigation,

468
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,440
but it was taken over by the Cook County Sheriff's Department.

469
00:30:52,599 --> 00:30:56,599
So I called them and I told them about the

470
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,279
incident where I saw Gaysey with the shovel at three

471
00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:02,559
o'clock in the morning, and I told him about the incident.

472
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,319
I told the guy I talked to her, I said, listen,

473
00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:07,839
I'm a policeman for Chicago. I think maybe you should

474
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,960
go over to that building and talk to the people

475
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,799
who lived there or live there at that time and

476
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,680
see what they have to say. And the guy I'm

477
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:20,000
talking to me says, well, doorsh, you know, we got

478
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:24,880
enough bodies, we don't want anymore. Well, what else can

479
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,400
you do? I don't work for them, but I gave

480
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,279
them the information, and I found out later years later

481
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,079
that they never did go to that building to talk

482
00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:38,640
to people, even though other people, including a policeman friend

483
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,480
of mine who lived in the basement apartment, also had

484
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:45,559
called to report it at the time of Casey's arrest,

485
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,880
and he was told basically the same thing, we don't

486
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,400
want any more bodies. And that apartment that this policeman

487
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,400
lived in in the building was an apartment that I

488
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,480
had often gone to, and because he was a friend

489
00:31:59,519 --> 00:32:01,039
of mine and he was a policeman who worked in

490
00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:06,400
the same district I did. And so when this policeman

491
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,519
and his family moved out of that apartment into their

492
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,319
very first home, I helped them move out. And after

493
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,400
he moved out, John Wayne Gacy's mother moved into that apartment,

494
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,880
which gives you even a stronger connection to that property

495
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,279
in Gaycy, but now we have a total of thirty

496
00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:29,319
three bodies. But I have information from a radar scan

497
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,079
that was done that there was evidence of possibly more

498
00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:35,799
bodies buried at that location in the city of Chicago

499
00:32:35,839 --> 00:32:37,839
doesn't want to do anything about it.

500
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of this in your book, isn't

501
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,759
it the one that we referenced when we first started, Natalie,

502
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,480
I've been reading it over the space of four weeks.

503
00:32:47,519 --> 00:32:50,680
I've been taking in however, not only absolutely smashed through

504
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,000
the book. And I'm sure Nott, have you've got any questions?

505
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:59,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, please, not questioned so much.

506
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 4: But I just find it kind of sad, actually, you know,

507
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,759
like sad for that that when reading through your book,

508
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:11,559
I found it quite interesting, like you say that how

509
00:33:12,559 --> 00:33:17,119
many things that could have caught him sooner got missed

510
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,279
because they went followed up on that.

511
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: That's what I've tragic perhaps, and.

512
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: That's in the book too. So much of that evidences

513
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,319
in a book. I mean, you got to think. I mean,

514
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,200
I'm a police investigator, but you don't have to be

515
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,720
an investigator to think. You got to hear you've got

516
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,640
a guy who's hiring young people, okay to work for him,

517
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,960
and now they're digging up bodies of all these young

518
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:47,480
people under the house and other vocations. Surely one of

519
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,599
the first things you want to do is find out

520
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,759
everybody that ever worked for him, to find out are

521
00:33:55,799 --> 00:34:01,839
they still alive, or are they missing, or or have

522
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,599
they been talked to? And what I found out was

523
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,280
they didn't check on anybody. And one of those people,

524
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:15,199
one of those people that is an accomplice of Gasey

525
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,039
I believe, had a prior homicide arrest. Now, if you're

526
00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:23,880
the investigator and you're going through the list of employees,

527
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,599
which the police did have, and you would be checking

528
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,679
everybody for your background, and you would want to talk

529
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,039
to everybody on that list, But certainly you're going to

530
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:38,400
be going to a guy who's got a prior homicide arrest.

531
00:34:40,079 --> 00:34:41,639
But I can't walk these people.

532
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 3: I was going to say, that's the thing that got me.

533
00:34:44,119 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, it was pretty court and right that

534
00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:52,920
Gaysey was the main murderer. But to have accomplices, I mean,

535
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:55,440
if you're not interested in catching them and putting them

536
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,239
behind bars, what's to stop them? You know, if Gaysey

537
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,559
took ideas from a previous serial killer, what's to stop

538
00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:05,400
them from going on and doing the same thing themselves.

539
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,559
Speaker 1: That's that's a great question. He weren't from Correl a

540
00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:15,000
lot all right, from Correl's arrest. But the thing about

541
00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:21,599
Gasey is, uh, I'm trying to get my thought together here.

542
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:29,320
Your question again is by what what was your question? Okay?

543
00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:33,559
So Naddy was that he's okay.

544
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 2: Yes, I think what Natalie. I think what Naddie was

545
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,039
asking was John Wayne Gacy learned a lot from previous

546
00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:45,639
serial killers. And if he's working alongside other accomplices and

547
00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:49,400
they haven't been captured or held accountable.

548
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: There's a I found a very good reason why. See

549
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,519
what happened is when Gasey got arrested. And if you

550
00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:03,239
read the book, you will understand that the case ended

551
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,639
with the arrest of Gaycy. That should have been the

552
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:14,239
beginning of the investigation with Gaycy, okay, because Gaysey was

553
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:25,199
connecting with others to commit these crimes, and there was

554
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,480
one of the people who was one of his accomplices.

555
00:36:27,639 --> 00:36:30,239
There were two main people that were involved in his case.

556
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:34,559
A boy named David Cram who was about nineteen or twenty,

557
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,000
who not only lived and worked with Gaycy, and brought

558
00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:42,480
kids back to Gasey and a guy named Michael Rossi,

559
00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:45,000
who was about nineteen at the time also who did

560
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,199
the same, lived with Gaycy for a period of time.

561
00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:52,000
Both of them were having sex with Gaycy, and I

562
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:59,440
believe that's the control thing. Once they admittedly had sex

563
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,719
with Gaycy, he would use that against them and they

564
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,559
were brought into the same web with him. Okay, but

565
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:19,800
Cram committed suicide years later. Michael Rossi and Cram were

566
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,440
believed to be involved with Gaiysey at the time of

567
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,440
Gaysey's arrest, but they were in custody even all right

568
00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:30,559
at the time of Gaysey's arrest. But what I learned

569
00:37:30,599 --> 00:37:35,639
from Joe Cosensak, who was a lieutenant from Displains Police Department,

570
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:39,119
they were in charge of the original investigation of Gaysey

571
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,639
and a missing boy and it was through them that

572
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,679
they uncovered the first bodies and then Sheriff's department took

573
00:37:45,679 --> 00:37:49,840
it over. But what what they found out was, well,

574
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,719
when I talked to Joe Cosensak, who headed the investigation,

575
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,960
we sat down, we had like three meetings. But he

576
00:37:56,039 --> 00:37:59,559
told me because I said, why, you know, it seems

577
00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:01,559
like these guys were involved. Why weren't they charged? That

578
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,320
was my question, She says, well, Bill, one day, the

579
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,320
day we had on in custody, thinking about charging them,

580
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:11,320
suddenly a woman came into our offices yelling about where's

581
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,679
my son Michael? All right? So that he went out

582
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,280
with the state's attorney. They both went out and talked

583
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,159
to the woman and she told them do you have

584
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,960
my son Michael Rossi here? And they said, yes, ma'am,

585
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,960
we have him here, and he's in serious trouble. And

586
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:28,559
she says, well, let me tell you this. If you

587
00:38:28,639 --> 00:38:32,159
do not release my son Michael now, you will not

588
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,800
have a job tomorrow. That's a pretty brazen thing to

589
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,760
threaten people with. I'll tell you I probably have heard

590
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,199
that too during my police career several times. But Closes

591
00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:48,119
told me. He says, well the obvious things. How are

592
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:51,159
you responding? Said, what are you talking about, lady? She says,

593
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:56,199
my son Michael is the grandson of Vito Marzullo, and

594
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,440
if you don't think I can take your job from you,

595
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,880
you're wrong. Well, Vito marzoul at that time, was the

596
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:08,679
second most powerful politician in the city of Chicago, so

597
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,599
his grandson, Michael Rossi who is a suspected accomplice of Gaysey,

598
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:18,639
went from being an accomplice to a witness against Gaycy.

599
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,480
It was never charged. But they had to do the

600
00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:26,360
same for David Cram, even though Cram didn't have that connection.

601
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,960
But they couldn't just let Rossi go and not Cram,

602
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,480
so they used both of them ast witnesses against Gaysey.

603
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,639
Speaker 2: And I think this is a good kind of place

604
00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:42,920
to kind of flow into your next book, because you

605
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,400
talk a little bit about corruption and police corruption, and

606
00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:50,760
I know you'll obviously be able to explain the book

607
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,000
a lot better than me, so I'll hand over to you.

608
00:39:53,039 --> 00:39:56,400
But there's also a recent article that will share that

609
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,920
you shared with me earlier with him regarding the era

610
00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:04,039
yes and the releases of wrongly accused men.

611
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,639
Speaker 1: Right before, I want to tell you another brief story,

612
00:40:08,639 --> 00:40:13,239
and this one is very personal to me about the paranormal. Okay,

613
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,920
I was blessed with having great parents. My father was

614
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,400
a World War Two veteran. He lost his right arm

615
00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:27,360
in the invasion of Layte in the Philippines. He lost

616
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,159
his arm right about it at the shoulder. Great man

617
00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:34,119
never complained about anything, had no enemies, all right. I

618
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:39,280
was blessed well. When my father died in his seventies

619
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:45,360
and I remarried. I was remarried again, and my wife

620
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,760
was from Europe, and I started going to Europe, and

621
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,559
I was always telling her about my father would always

622
00:40:52,559 --> 00:40:55,719
tell me how much you wanted all his life to

623
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,639
go to Italy and Greece. He wanted to go to

624
00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:01,440
the Mediterranean, he says, in my luck was what did

625
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,000
they do it? He sent me to the Philippines, Okay,

626
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,880
but he read everything about it. He read constantly about

627
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,400
the history of Rome and Greece and you know. And

628
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,440
so he had a ID badge from when he was

629
00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:17,599
in this after the military, he worked for a US

630
00:41:17,679 --> 00:41:22,960
Treasury department, okay, and his ID badge had his photo

631
00:41:23,039 --> 00:41:26,760
and name on it. And I had that badge and

632
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,159
I had it since he died. And I kept telling

633
00:41:30,199 --> 00:41:35,000
my wife, who was from Bulgaria, and I had been

634
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:38,679
coming to Bulgaria every year now, and we were going

635
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,880
to go to Greece, and we're going to obviously go

636
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,320
to the beach, you know this and that. So I

637
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,480
had always told her when I get to the Mediterranean,

638
00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:49,119
I'm going to take that ID that he's got and

639
00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:52,880
I'm going to bury it in the sand. My dad.

640
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:56,880
You got here, and she talked me out of it.

641
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,920
She said, no, no, it's too personal a thing. We'll go.

642
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:03,320
They're just you can think about your dad, but keep it.

643
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,000
It's a it's a unmmental that your dad would want

644
00:42:07,039 --> 00:42:12,519
you to have. So we went to Greece. So my

645
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:19,679
wife is at the door. Later, excuse me just one second. Yes,

646
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:26,239
you're what, I'm on the air. Tell me it's all right.

647
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,159
Just tell me it's all right. I can't reach I

648
00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:36,400
can't well, I'll call, I'll call later. And yeah, okay,

649
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:38,719
So a young man that helps me out with my

650
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:42,480
computers is trying to reach me. A great kid, Okay,

651
00:42:42,559 --> 00:42:46,559
But anyway, we go to Greece for the very first trip.

652
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:50,320
Put our bags in the hotel room, grab our blankets

653
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,880
and stuff and chairs, and we walked down to the sand.

654
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,199
I started. We put the stuff down on the on

655
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,199
the on the sand. The chairs are set up, the

656
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,039
blankets are set up, and I'm looking into my swimsuit

657
00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:03,519
to the water, and I'm just about it the water

658
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:09,000
and I stopped, and I turned to my left and

659
00:43:09,079 --> 00:43:13,360
walking towards me in a group of maybe three four people.

660
00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:15,639
Was a man who was about the age of my

661
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:20,719
father when he died somewhere, thin build and the hair

662
00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:25,679
and face not looking like my dad, but the physical

663
00:43:26,119 --> 00:43:31,800
structure characteristics. And he's missing his right arm at the shoulder.

664
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,480
And he walked within feet of me, and I froze

665
00:43:38,039 --> 00:43:42,480
and I turned and then I looked at my wife,

666
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,079
and my wife was looking at at him too, at me,

667
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,400
and I walked over to her and I says, did

668
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,559
you see that? And she says, yes, yes, and I

669
00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:55,639
swear to got it. We both looked and we didn't

670
00:43:55,639 --> 00:43:56,199
see him.

671
00:43:56,039 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 3: Anymore in the group, so he got there.

672
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 1: Then that's what I said.

673
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,039
Speaker 3: Wow, it was.

674
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 1: A good thing, you know. It was a good thing,

675
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,920
you know. I mean, I couldn't believe it, but that

676
00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:16,480
was the thing. That's why I mentioned to you, I

677
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,840
think there's a good site to it, in a bad

678
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:24,880
side to the paranormal, you know, but he wanted me

679
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,039
to know, and that's the way I felt.

680
00:44:28,559 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds like it's like saying the fact that

681
00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:34,280
your wife saw him as well, you know.

682
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: And then we all saw that he was not there anymore.

683
00:44:38,199 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 3: Yeah.

684
00:44:39,079 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 4: No, it's crazy how things like that happened, and like

685
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,559
you say, when somebody else sees it as well, you

686
00:44:44,639 --> 00:44:48,519
can't really doubt it the same way because you're like, well, we.

687
00:44:48,679 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: Figured out because we shared the whole venture. I guess

688
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,199
maybe that's why she was part of it.

689
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it could be. Yeah, it was like a message

690
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,039
to both of you in a way.

691
00:44:58,519 --> 00:45:03,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, let me get onto govera Okay.

692
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,679
Like I started earlier being a Chicago policeman, I loved

693
00:45:08,679 --> 00:45:15,800
the job, okay, being a homicide detective. I really I

694
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,440
thought I was good at what I did. Okay, but

695
00:45:18,519 --> 00:45:21,039
I worked with a lot of very good police officers,

696
00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:25,000
great police officers. I mean during my career, I think,

697
00:45:26,039 --> 00:45:27,760
what is it. I think there were eighty two police

698
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,079
officers in Chicago that were killed in duty. Okay, so

699
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:35,000
it's a risky job. I had my own shootings and

700
00:45:35,119 --> 00:45:42,119
I survived them, okay, but in the police department. And

701
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,440
this started even before I became a policeman. When I

702
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,599
was thinking about being a policeman. My father's uncle, who

703
00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:53,559
had been a career Chicago policeman, owned a resort in

704
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:57,119
northern Wisconsin, and I was up there with friends and

705
00:45:57,199 --> 00:45:58,880
I told him I was going to go on the

706
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,559
police department. He said, here, here's a beer sit down.

707
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:03,960
I want to tell you something. He said, this is

708
00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:09,000
very important. You should know this. Be careful on the

709
00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:13,559
police department. Pick good partners because not all of them

710
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:18,280
are there for the same reason you are. Okay, And

711
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,079
that was good advice, all right. So, I mean during

712
00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:25,679
my career, I learned every day. You know, maybe I

713
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,519
saw what was good or saw something that was bad,

714
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:31,679
but I didn't repeat anything that was bad. And I

715
00:46:31,679 --> 00:46:34,440
stayed away from the trouble guys, the guys that I thought,

716
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,920
you know, you might have a suspicion about them, but

717
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,719
you thought that was enough to not want to work

718
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,920
with them. But when I was a detective at Area

719
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:48,559
five in nineteen ninety four, well that's when I retired.

720
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,280
But the problem was in the nineties, we had so

721
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,559
many homicides in Chicago. Was known as the murder capital

722
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,000
of the United States. Okay, And there's one thing about homicide.

723
00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:03,800
You can't stop them. You can't put a policeman on

724
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:09,360
every corner. The homicides are going to happen. But according

725
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,000
to the people who run the city, you got to

726
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,480
solve cases because it looks real bad. If you're getting

727
00:47:14,519 --> 00:47:17,760
nine hundred and thirty murders and you're not solving cases,

728
00:47:19,039 --> 00:47:24,440
so you got to make arrests. And so I believe

729
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,000
it was in my book people will find out that

730
00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:29,639
was sort of like a trade off. There was a

731
00:47:29,679 --> 00:47:34,079
group of policemen coming mostly out of the fourteenth District

732
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:39,960
and gang crimes, that were putting homicide cases on people

733
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,760
who were innocent and sending these people to prison on

734
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,679
false evidence. And they were in prison for twenty twenty

735
00:47:47,679 --> 00:47:52,159
five years and more before they were out. Okay. One

736
00:47:52,199 --> 00:47:58,280
of them, Joe Manchinowski, who I knew from Gang Unit.

737
00:47:58,599 --> 00:48:02,599
He's still he's serving life in prison in the Federal penitentiary,

738
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,280
convicted of his involvement with the Games. Because what they

739
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,440
were doing is they were intimidating the gangs, and they

740
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,880
were telling the gangs, you're going to cooperate with us,

741
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,599
and you're going to pay us from your narcotic sales,

742
00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:22,440
and we'll give you protection for that. Okay, So they

743
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,719
were getting money from these gangs. But the way they

744
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:29,320
were bringing the gangs in, you know, these gangs they

745
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,280
didn't want to jump in there with the police. They

746
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,679
didn't want to do that. Excuse me, I got the

747
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,480
young man here right now. One second, I don't go ahead,

748
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:45,400
Oh no, turn, turn. I'm doing my podcast right now,

749
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,119
so I got I'm in the middle of it. I'll

750
00:48:48,159 --> 00:48:52,880
quite tomorrow, but everything's okay. No, go ahead, thank you, sir.

751
00:48:55,559 --> 00:48:59,920
I am blessed here in Greece and Bulgaria. My ballgame

752
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:03,360
airing in the cyrillic alphabet are not good for me, okay.

753
00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:07,880
But most of these young people here, they're multi lingual,

754
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,679
and they so many of them, the vast majority of

755
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,719
them speak English, and most of them are so good

756
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,039
with computers, and that's where I really need them. So

757
00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:20,639
I'm blessed to have a guy like this who takes

758
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,519
enough time out of this busy night to come see

759
00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:28,360
if I'm doing okay. So I'm happy with that, you know.

760
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,639
But getting back to this, what was going on with them?

761
00:49:33,639 --> 00:49:37,800
They were getting they were able to. They would go

762
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,360
to a gang that they wanted to get money from

763
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,559
and control, all right, and tell them you give us

764
00:49:44,599 --> 00:49:47,280
money or you're gonna get you're gonna have trouble. So

765
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,199
what they would do is they would send a message

766
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,320
to the gang leaders and they would put a there

767
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,119
would be a homicide, and then they would pick out

768
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:57,320
somebody from that gang and put a false case against

769
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,559
them with false witnesses, get them convicted, and send them

770
00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:03,760
the prison. That would force the gang to say, oh,

771
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,480
we better join with these guys or we're going to

772
00:50:06,519 --> 00:50:11,199
go down. And it was going on for years. Okay, Well,

773
00:50:12,599 --> 00:50:15,960
in nineteen ninety when I was a detective, I was

774
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,360
aware of this group and I was suspicious of what

775
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,480
they were doing with no real proof. But then one

776
00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:28,920
evening we had a homicide that was maybe a month

777
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,440
or six weeks old. Are we running out of time here? Girls?

778
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,519
Speaker 2: We have about five minutes, so it'd be great to

779
00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:39,320
know where I know we'll be leaving on a bit

780
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,719
of a cliffhanger. Be great to know because this book

781
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,840
hasn't been released yet, has it, So it'd be great

782
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,760
to know about the release dates and where everyone can

783
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:52,360
find your books as it stands, and also your podcast

784
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,440
that we haven't even mentioned yet, so where they be

785
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,239
able to find you otherwise?

786
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,519
Speaker 1: Well, I've been working with Bob Mada on his Defense

787
00:50:59,599 --> 00:51:03,400
Diary podcasts, and unfortunately I was doing that for a

788
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,400
very long time. When we have a lot of episodes

789
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,079
up online about Gacy and now my second book, But

790
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,719
unfortunately Bob ran off to be involved in a more

791
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:17,920
recent homicide trial and we haven't been able to connect

792
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,800
for about five weeks because of his involvement. Now he's

793
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,000
in a podcast business and he's got to keep these

794
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:28,280
people rolling, so I understand it. But whether we'll reconnect

795
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,719
or not, I don't know. But let me get back

796
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,960
to what happened. I'll try to be as quick as

797
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,880
I can with Guevera and company because he was not

798
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,000
alone right now. The Govera was a gang crime's officer

799
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,519
who came into our office one evening with two young

800
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:48,320
boys about fifteen years old, who we said were witnesses

801
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,480
to this older homicide, which we had no clue in

802
00:51:51,519 --> 00:51:54,000
the world. The only thing we knew from the witness

803
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,039
in the car, a young girl, was that the occupants

804
00:51:57,039 --> 00:51:59,599
who were the shooters were in a large white car.

805
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,679
Nothing else. And suddenly he appears with two witnesses and

806
00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:09,960
he tells our boss that the two kids were close

807
00:52:10,079 --> 00:52:13,079
enough to the homicide shooting that they were able to

808
00:52:13,079 --> 00:52:15,360
write down the license plate number of the car and

809
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,360
they can identify the people in the car. Well, that's

810
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:23,119
great news, but my boss says, Bill, you know pick

811
00:52:23,159 --> 00:52:26,000
it up. But when I first of all, I'm saying,

812
00:52:26,159 --> 00:52:29,119
wait a minute, you're telling me that these two kids

813
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,199
at two three o'clock in the morning are witnessed his

814
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,639
homicide and they're so close to it that they had

815
00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:38,480
a piece of paper and a pen on them and

816
00:52:38,519 --> 00:52:42,079
they wrote down the license plate number. And now four

817
00:52:42,119 --> 00:52:45,280
to six weeks later, when these two gang crimes officers

818
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,719
stopped him, one of them still has that piece of

819
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,480
paper in his pocket. I don't believe it. They never

820
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:55,679
talked to the police, but the guy I was told

821
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,239
to follow it up, and I ran the plate, found

822
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,599
out who owned the car, found out that dead young

823
00:53:00,639 --> 00:53:05,079
man that owned the car did have a gun arrest. Okay,

824
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,639
so yeah, kind of have to get a picture of them,

825
00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:12,199
and I sent Golvera and his partner down the headquarters

826
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,320
to get the photo, and I keep the boys with me.

827
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:17,800
When Govera comes back, he wants to take the photo

828
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,559
right into the boys, and I stopped them. I said, no,

829
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,320
give the photo to me, and I grabbed a group

830
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,840
of other photos, put them together and took the boys

831
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,280
and Govera and this partner came into the room also,

832
00:53:31,039 --> 00:53:33,719
and before I showed the boys the photos. I said, listen,

833
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,760
you said you saw the homicide, and you're close enough

834
00:53:37,559 --> 00:53:40,239
you're gonna look at some photos. But just because you're

835
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,400
looking at photos, it doesn't mean that the people you

836
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,400
saw are in these photos. So don't don't pick out

837
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,119
somebody you I don't want you to try to make

838
00:53:49,119 --> 00:53:52,480
me happy. I only want you to identify someone if

839
00:53:52,519 --> 00:53:56,159
that's the person you saw. If not, it's not them,

840
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,639
don't worry about it. So I call one kid up

841
00:53:59,639 --> 00:54:02,280
to look at the five or six photos, and he's

842
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:06,239
not picking anybody out of it. Carry And then after

843
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,000
a little bit of time, Gulvera reaches out and puts

844
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:13,360
his finger right on one of the photos, and the kid goes, oh, yeah, yeah,

845
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:14,960
that's him. That's him. I was going to say it

846
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,039
with him, but maybe the hair or something looks a

847
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:20,719
little different. And I said right away, Gulvera, get out,

848
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:22,880
and I told the other the kid, to get out.

849
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:25,599
That was a mistake. I should have separated them, but

850
00:54:25,599 --> 00:54:28,800
I sent them both out together. I mix up the photos,

851
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,800
had the second kid come up, and he looks at photos.

852
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:37,480
He can't identify anybody, all right, So anyway, I've got

853
00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:41,559
one identification that I don't like, and my boss tells

854
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:43,960
me call the state's attorney. And of course, when the

855
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,920
state's attorney comes down and I tell him what happened,

856
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,400
he says, you have one identification you need. We need

857
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:51,719
a lineup. So we did a lineup the next day.

858
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,280
And I'm rushing through this now. We did a lineup

859
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,679
the next day, and of course the kid that had

860
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:58,719
the photo pointed out to him. He can pick the

861
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,679
guy out of a lineup, and the second kid can't.

862
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,360
All right, But the state's attorney says, well, we got

863
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,599
one id charge them. So we paid the kid down

864
00:55:08,639 --> 00:55:10,880
to the lock up and put them in a lockup

865
00:55:12,119 --> 00:55:16,440
to be processed and go to court. And the father

866
00:55:16,519 --> 00:55:19,800
of the boy comes into the station looking for his

867
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,519
son because he was he warned we had taken his

868
00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:26,039
son in to talk to him. And he said, you

869
00:55:26,079 --> 00:55:28,679
know my son, what murder. He's a good kid. He

870
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,159
works at a grocery store, a drug store, and he

871
00:55:31,199 --> 00:55:33,840
goes to night school. He's not in the game. I said,

872
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,599
but sir, he's got a gun arrest. How did that happen?

873
00:55:37,159 --> 00:55:40,639
And he said, well, talk to my son. Why. I

874
00:55:40,679 --> 00:55:43,480
talked to the kid and I verified it later through

875
00:55:43,519 --> 00:55:45,960
policemen and other things, they had found a gun in

876
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,719
the alley, and he thought, because of other kids, I'm

877
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:50,480
not going to leave it here. He threw in the

878
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,199
trunk of his car and later got stopped by the

879
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,119
police and they found a gun, all right, so he

880
00:55:56,199 --> 00:56:00,960
got charged. But anyway, now, I didn't like the way

881
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:04,559
the identification went down, and I told the father, just

882
00:56:04,599 --> 00:56:06,800
go to court tomorrow. We have to pick up the

883
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,800
two boy witnesses, and I'm going to pick them up

884
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,760
without the two policemen, and I'm going to talk to

885
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,880
him again. And when I met with the boys, I

886
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,039
told him picked up one right away, the one that

887
00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:18,920
made the identification. I said, listen, I don't like it

888
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:20,840
the way this went down. I don't believe any of it.

889
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:22,639
I don't believe you had a piece of paper and pen.

890
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:24,679
I don't believe you still have the paper on you

891
00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,039
when you got to stop by the police. Something's wrong.

892
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:29,039
Do you really want to put an innocent person in

893
00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:32,719
jail for murder for something he didn't do. And the

894
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,679
kids it said, we weren't there, we never saw it,

895
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:40,039
but we're afraid of these policemen. And they told us,

896
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:43,480
say needed our help in a homicide case, and they

897
00:56:43,519 --> 00:56:47,079
told us to they needed us to help it. So

898
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:48,880
he says, we did what we did and they paid

899
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,440
us twenty dollars a piece for doing it, and the

900
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,280
other kid verified the same thing. So anyway, I took

901
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,400
the two boys down to the court for the first

902
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,840
appearance of this kid who arrested the night before. I

903
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,199
told the state's attorneys what happened. They talked to the

904
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,519
two kids and they said, we're going to release them

905
00:57:06,519 --> 00:57:12,360
from court. Took the two boys home and if I

906
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:14,360
had to get the guy out that night because after

907
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,079
that first appearance, he was going to be stuck in

908
00:57:16,119 --> 00:57:19,639
jail for years until this was the earrings, you know.

909
00:57:20,039 --> 00:57:21,840
But I got on released. I came back to my

910
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:26,599
office and waiting for me was my boss and other supervisors.

911
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:29,039
And the first words out of him mount were doors,

912
00:57:29,119 --> 00:57:30,800
what the frick are you doing? We're never going to

913
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,119
solve this case. So I said, so, you want me

914
00:57:34,159 --> 00:57:36,840
to put an innocent kid in jail for murder he

915
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:40,440
didn't do, so, you can clear a homicide and I

916
00:57:40,559 --> 00:57:44,960
was ordered not to write any reports. And after that,

917
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,599
a few years later, after watching what was still going

918
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:49,719
on and trying to avoid all the connection to these

919
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:54,159
bad cops, I left the police department. I could have

920
00:57:54,159 --> 00:57:57,719
stayed in another twelve thirteen years, but I left, and

921
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,880
years later, doing my work as a private investigator and

922
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,639
connecting with the INNESIS projects, I told them about this,

923
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,400
and through my testimony as civil and federal courts, I

924
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,880
have now helped to get over forty people exagerated who

925
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:15,400
are all in jail for murders.

926
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 2: Amazing, and this journey has all been documented in your book,

927
00:58:19,519 --> 00:58:21,800
isn't it. So when does that? When does your book

928
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:22,440
get released?

929
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,119
Speaker 1: It will be out the exact date I'm not sure.

930
00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:28,000
I'm not finishing the editing right now, but I'm hoping

931
00:58:28,039 --> 00:58:29,760
for January, end of January.

932
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: Okay, Well when once it's Once it's published, we'll make

933
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,800
sure to share it. And we've we've come to the

934
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,760
end of the podcast. Thank you so much for telling

935
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:44,519
us all about your experiences in your journeys paranormalan otherwise,

936
00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:45,760
it's been really interesting.

937
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:46,599
Speaker 3: Thank you.

938
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: Was indeed a pleasure, Natalie Gary who was a pleasure,

939
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:51,280
Thank you so much.

940
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was very interesting. Thank you and the.

941
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,159
Speaker 1: Future will meet again, I hope maybe in June.

942
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 2: In June I'll be there, bells on and I'll have

943
00:59:00,519 --> 00:59:03,159
a copy of the book your next I'm hoping.

944
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,199
Speaker 1: To get the for you, and I'm trying to get

945
00:59:06,239 --> 00:59:08,000
the presentation on the stage.

946
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 2: Okay, fantastic both.

947
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,559
Speaker 1: And for the Gulvera cases. And with the Gulovera cases,

948
00:59:14,559 --> 00:59:17,840
I'm going to bring in a fantastic attorney who I've

949
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:22,000
worked with to get these kids exonerated and a film

950
00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:24,719
producer who I've worked with for six years who's going

951
00:59:24,719 --> 00:59:26,679
to have a documentary coming out on it.

952
00:59:27,039 --> 00:59:29,639
Speaker 2: Perfect. I'll be at the front, right, I'll be there.

953
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,079
Speaker 3: What thank you.

954
00:59:32,679 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: We're going to say thank you for everyone that's joined

955
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:40,880
us this evening. Thank you for listening. Yeah, good night,

956
00:59:41,159 --> 00:59:41,559
thank you.

957
00:59:42,039 --> 00:59:43,960
Speaker 1: I love the one and I can't wait to go back.

958
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,119
Speaker 3: Oh you back, We'll see you.

959
00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: Thank you by that

960
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:04,119
Speaker 2: Stop