WEBVTT 1 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.640 So welcome back to part two of our next series 2 00:00:36.679 --> 00:00:39.359 of The Path with Chili, which I have titled Jules's 3 00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:42.719 Statement Analysis in case you didn't hear last week's episode. 4 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:45.560 Because we recorded this right before Christmas, Ashley was taking 5 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:48.079 a break, so we decided to try something a little 6 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.119 different where I didn't tell any details about the featured 7 00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:54.280 case to Jewles beforehand, and I instead sent her a 8 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:56.799 statement that had been made by someone connected to the 9 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.920 case from a police interrogation room, and she decided to 10 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.079 perform a statement analysis of it to give her thoughts 11 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:06.040 about whether or not the statement was true, And on 12 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:08.920 our last episode we went through all the details. She 13 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:11.200 broke down each part of the statement one by one, 14 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:13.680 but she still doesn't know any of the details of 15 00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:16.159 the case. So on this episode, I'm finally going to 16 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:18.799 provide the full context of this statement and also share 17 00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:21.680 the details of the case and see if Jules now 18 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:24.519 feels differently than what she's felt the last time when 19 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:28.159 she made her analysis. So, Jules, I covered this one 20 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:30.200 on the trail we called four years ago. Have you 21 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:33.120 ever heard of the nineteen eighty five disappearance of twelve 22 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.239 year old Martha Jean Lambert's or had any recollection of 23 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:38.319 having heard my podcast episode about it. 24 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:40.959 I mean, it's possible that I heard it four years ago, 25 00:01:41.000 --> 00:01:42.560 but the name isn't ringing a bell. 26 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:45.159 Well, the crazy part about this is that the person 27 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:47.640 who made the statement from our last episode was her 28 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:51.239 older brother, David, who would have only been fourteen years 29 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:54.319 old at the time that he allegedly killed his sister. 30 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.040 And what's also crazy is that I mentioned that it 31 00:01:57.079 --> 00:01:59.560 was made in a police interrogation room, but this was 32 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.400 not the first time David had made this statement, this 33 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:05.560 confession to the police, and this was a special moment 34 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:07.959 where there were two detectors in the room and they 35 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:11.800 gathered David together with his mother, Margaret. So the statement 36 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:14.240 he is making is him confessing to causing his own 37 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:16.879 sister's death to his own mother. So does that change 38 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:18.520 your outlook now that you know this information? 39 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:24.599 Oh my god, that is some dark, dark stuff. It's 40 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:28.120 completely different when I'm thinking the victim is somebody who's 41 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:32.919 not only twelve years old, but his sister. That's wild. 42 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:35.479 I'm really looking forward to hearing the details here. 43 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.199 Yeah, because one of the things you mentioned about this 44 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:40.479 statement in our last episode is that you thought it 45 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.319 sounded very detached and unemotional, and that he's talking about 46 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:47.080 a traumatic ordeal with not a lot of feeling. And 47 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.159 that seems even worse when you consider that he's talking 48 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:51.319 about causing the death of his own sister and he 49 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.639 is telling his own mother for the very first time. 50 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:56.319 Yet at no point does he become emotional or break 51 00:02:56.319 --> 00:02:59.479 down crying, which I think adds maybe more credence to 52 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:01.680 the idea that he is not telling the full truth. 53 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:05.840 So it took place in Saint Augustine, Florida, in nineteen 54 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:09.000 eighty five. Martha was twelve, David was fourteen, and they 55 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:13.360 also had an older brother named Raymond, and their mother, Margaret, 56 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:15.840 She was thirty three years old at the time. And 57 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:19.319 this was not a happy home life because Margaret's husband, 58 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:22.840 Howard Lambert, was seventy four years old and was known 59 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:26.159 for having alcohol problems and a violent temper. And when 60 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:28.520 you do the math, you realize that Howard would have 61 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:30.879 been fifty nine years old and Margaret would have only 62 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:33.879 been eighteen when she gave birth to the first child. 63 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:36.360 So right from the outset, it sounds like this was 64 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:37.719 not a healthy relationship. 65 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:42.479 Yeah, if she was eighteen when she gave birth. Did 66 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:47.800 they concede when she was seventeen and literally a child. 67 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:49.080 And he would have been like fifty eight to fifty nine, 68 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:50.360 which makes it all the more traveling. 69 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.240 Yeah, it sets up some weird dynamics. 70 00:03:53.319 --> 00:03:53.479 You know. 71 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:55.680 If somebody to say the age of like twenty five 72 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:57.759 or something, and the person who's way older, I have 73 00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:59.879 much less issue with it. It's when somebody is still 74 00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:02.360 in their teen years and we have somebody who's near 75 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:04.719 retirement age that there's a bit of an issue. 76 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:08.199 And yes, like I said, this was not a happy household. 77 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:10.680 There have been three separate occasions when the children were 78 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:13.360 taken away from their parents and placed in foster care, 79 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.560 possibly due to abuse, but at this particular moment, they 80 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.680 were back living with Howard and Margaret at a mobile home, 81 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:21.439 but the neighbors would say that there was a lot 82 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.160 of turmoil that they often heard loud yelling and fighting 83 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:26.839 coming from there. At the time. Martha was a seventh 84 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:29.560 grade student, and even though the other kids described her 85 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.399 as being friendly, she was very shy and did not 86 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:36.079 have many close friends, and her grades were pretty poor, 87 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:38.480 and she was known for showing up for school dressed 88 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.920 in dirty clothing. And even though there are a lot 89 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.199 of warning signs here that she was the victim of 90 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:46.279 abuse in that whole soul, it has still never been 91 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:49.480 conclusively proven, but definitely a lot of red flags. 92 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:54.240 That is truly heartbreaking. And to think, is it possible 93 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:56.360 too that if both her and her brother are being 94 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.160 abused and I guess we don't know the full extent 95 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:03.439 of it, if this was physical, sexual just neglect. Obviously, 96 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.040 if you're sending children to school in dirty clothes, that 97 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:09.600 is concerning. But we often do see, you know, as 98 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.639 we saw with the Menendez brothers, there was one that 99 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:14.639 became sexually abusive of the other because he himself was 100 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.879 abused and that becomes that cycle, and it was really 101 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.199 dramatized in the most recent Ryan Murphy TV show on 102 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:23.240 the Menendez Brothers, and a lot of people thought that 103 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:28.160 was like really inappropriate. But I don't know if indeed 104 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.319 in this situation, is there potential that we're seeing Martha 105 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:35.519 be abused by David because David has himself experienced abuse. 106 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:39.800 Do we know more of the dynamics about any specifics 107 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:40.879 there not? 108 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:43.720 Really no. I know that Martha did not have a 109 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.279 good relationship with her father, who was known for having 110 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.879 a temper, But the sources did say that she seemed 111 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:51.079 to have a good relationship with her mother and her 112 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:54.399 two brothers and would sometimes act does the peacekeeper when 113 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:57.480 her two brothers were fighting. So I didn't hear anything 114 00:05:57.519 --> 00:05:59.920 about any abuse in the relationship, But I don't our 115 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:02.480 last episode. When you looked at the statement analysis, you 116 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:06.000 wondered if David was telling this fabricated story to cover 117 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.079 up for something else, such as sexual abuse of the victim. 118 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:11.879 And while that's never been conclusively proven, when you hear 119 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.720 about their home life and their backstory, you start thinking 120 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:16.199 that could be a possibility. 121 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:20.319 When you see like the cold, detached on emotional nature 122 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:23.839 of David, and you speak to the fact that there 123 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:28.120 was trauma and upheaval and some type of abuse in 124 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.240 the household, it is possible that David could be experiencing 125 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:36.319 something I'm obviously not diagnosing him, but antisocial personality disorder, 126 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:41.000 which would now be encompassing of like sociopathy, and that 127 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:45.120 could explain the reactions that he was having and why 128 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:49.319 he wasn't emotional, especially given the trauma that was experienced 129 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:52.800 in the family home. But I don't want to give 130 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.480 him an out here and say that, like, that's why 131 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.399 he's that way. It could be he's that way because 132 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:01.279 he's lying until you tell me more. 133 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:03.399 Yeah, exactly. And I don't have the answer to a 134 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:05.480 lot of that questions, but you might come to different 135 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.639 conclusions when you hear the full story. So Martha went 136 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:11.680 missing on November twenty seventh, nineteen eighty five, which was 137 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:14.759 the day before Thanksgiving, so she was away from school 138 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:17.800 on a holiday, and she was planning to spend Thanksgiving 139 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.000 at her grandmother's house the following day. So on this 140 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.720 particular evening, she went to a social gathering at a 141 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:26.800 neighbor's mobile home, which was also attended by her mother, 142 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.000 and at around seven thirty, Martha told Margaret that she 143 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:32.040 needed to go back home, that she would be back 144 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:35.279 in about five minutes, but she never returned, and when 145 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.160 Margaret returned to her own home, she discovered that Martha 146 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:41.480 was not there. And the story provided by the father Howard, 147 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.160 is that Martha did stop by while he was making 148 00:07:44.199 --> 00:07:46.519 tinner and asked what time the food would be ready, 149 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.199 then she left again, but she never returned and he 150 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:53.040 had no idea where she was, and the family decided 151 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:56.040 to perform a search for Martha, and they officially reported 152 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:59.600 her missing at three am, which would have been seven 153 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.199 and a half hours after she was last seen. And 154 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:04.079 some people have taken that as a red flag that 155 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:06.720 maybe the family knows more than the letting on because 156 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:09.240 they took so long to officially report her missing. 157 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:14.480 Well, this seems to be a family of lower socioeconomic status, 158 00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:18.240 and then that brings into question what is their relationship 159 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.639 with law enforcement? Is this an area where there's a 160 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.160 lot of criminal activity. Is this something where you feel 161 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:25.639 as though you can go to law enforcement and be 162 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:28.920 taken seriously. Maybe they thought, oh, well, she's got to 163 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:30.839 be missing for a few hours before we go, and 164 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.519 reporter is missing. So I think you could read that 165 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:36.879 either way. You could read it as these people are 166 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:40.039 hiding something and that's why they didn't come forward, or 167 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:42.639 if this is a pattern of behavior, they could be 168 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:45.000 thinking like, oh, she's just at one of her friend's houses. 169 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:47.200 Let's just give her some time before we go and 170 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:48.720 raise the alarm with law enforcement. 171 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:51.960 And that is true because the two brothers did have 172 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:54.360 a prior history of running away from home. So if 173 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.720 Martha was missing for quite a few hours. I can 174 00:08:56.799 --> 00:08:59.600 see how that might not instantly raise alarm bells because 175 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:01.720 this was as a pattern of behavior in the family. 176 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:05.279 But it seems like Margaret became paranoid that Martha had 177 00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:09.000 been abducted because apparently some neighbors were called seeing Martha 178 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:12.399 walking west on the nearby cariy Lene Road and being 179 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.600 approached by a suspicious looking green van which did not 180 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.399 appear to belong to any of the local residents. And 181 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:21.720 apparently when Margaret heard about this van, she immediately suspected 182 00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:23.360 that her daughter may have been abducted. 183 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:27.120 Well, if you're assuming that your daughter, if you're thinking 184 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:29.679 there's a great probability that she was abducted, I would 185 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:32.519 think you would be hurrying to law enforcement and definitely 186 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:35.639 pleading your case. Because time is of the essence. We 187 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:38.519 know that there's like what the first forty eight hours 188 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:41.200 that after somebody has abducted, the chance if you were 189 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.600 taking a child, that the person could end that child's 190 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:47.080 life is very high. So that had to be an 191 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:48.360 incredibly scary time. 192 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.399 It was, And I'm not entirely sure when the family 193 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:53.399 learned about the green vand but if they didn't hear 194 00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:56.440 until around three am, that could explain why they waited 195 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:59.399 so long to decide to contact the police. I know 196 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:01.799 that the pl did perform a search in the wooded 197 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.679 area behind the mobile home, and that Margaret said, don't 198 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.200 waste your time, she's not there, or stop searching. And 199 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.480 some people have taken that as a sign of suspicion 200 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:12.679 that maybe she was buried there or something and they 201 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.639 didn't want the police looking. But if Margaret genuinely believed 202 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.679 that she was kidnapped by someone in a green van, 203 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.519 I can understand why she would say, she's not there, 204 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:23.919 stop wasting your time, look for this van. But we're 205 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:26.559 talking about how David, many years later, would make this 206 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:29.840 confession that he was responsible for Martha's death, and the 207 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.919 police actually became suspicious of him almost immediately because he 208 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.000 gave a bunch of contradictory accounts about the last time 209 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:39.960 he saw Martha. First, he told the police that he 210 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:43.080 witnessed Martha climbing into a black vehicle, but they never 211 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.799 found any evidence that a black vehicle was in the area, 212 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.320 and they felt that David's story did not hold up, 213 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:50.919 so he changed his story and that he said he 214 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.720 last saw Martha walking down the street towards the Little 215 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:57.080 Champ convenience store on State Road two o seven. But 216 00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.519 then he later changed his story again, now claiming that 217 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:01.919 Martha had I've been eating dinner with him at their 218 00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:04.840 mobile home before she told him she was going out, 219 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.519 and when David asked where, she refused to tell him, 220 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:11.360 and that he never saw her again. And Margaret would 221 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.600 also say that when she came home late that night, 222 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.960 she saw David walking outside and he was laughing for 223 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:20.279 no apparent reason, but when she asked why he was laughing, 224 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.519 he would not tell her why. So that's why people 225 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:25.759 were suspecting that David might have known more than he 226 00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:26.320 was letting on. 227 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.799 That's very bizarre behavior. I don't know what his baseline is, 228 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:34.840 but I would take it the fact that it raised 229 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:38.600 alarm bells with Margaret, that that was atypical for him 230 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.080 to just randomly be laughing at nothing enough so that 231 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:46.960 in the context of her daughter being missing, it was like, Okay, well, 232 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.399 maybe he knows more, or maybe he did something to her, 233 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:54.120 because it's a little bit unsettling, and it's giving me 234 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.720 like Burke Ramsey vibes too. You know, when you get 235 00:11:57.720 --> 00:12:01.559 somebody who doesn't necessarily react the way that they should, 236 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:06.480 and their emotions are almost like incongruous the way that 237 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:09.879 they're expressing them. And I know with Burke Ramsey, I 238 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:11.879 believe that he's on the spectrum. I'm not one hundred 239 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.279 percent sure, And I don't know what is the case 240 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.159 with David, if he has any type of diagnosis or diagnoses. 241 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:23.279 I'm not sure, but that behavior is a little bit bizarre, 242 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:25.120 especially when your sister's missing. 243 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.559 Yeah, and as we're talking about in his statement analysis, 244 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.879 he never mentioned anything when he was talking to his 245 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.720 mother about coming home and laughing. It just seems to 246 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:37.559 contradict like what he said in his statement. And I 247 00:12:37.559 --> 00:12:39.440 don't know if he's on the spectrum. I'm sure that 248 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:42.399 a poverty stricken family in the nineteen eighties were not 249 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:45.799 going to officially diagnose him, but it's certainly a possibility. 250 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:48.240 But I think the big red flag is that he 251 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.759 kept changing his story, and it was even contradicted by 252 00:12:51.799 --> 00:12:55.320 his father, Howard, because his story is that Martha came 253 00:12:55.399 --> 00:12:57.600 back home just briefly to see when the food was 254 00:12:57.639 --> 00:12:59.799 going to be ready, and then she left again. And 255 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:02.799 David provides this story about them eating together in the 256 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:06.360 mobile home before Martha left, even though the story provided 257 00:13:06.360 --> 00:13:08.440 by their own father is that she went missing before 258 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.360 the food was even ready. So it seems a parent 259 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:14.960 that someone is lying here, And I don't know. I 260 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:19.080 can understand why you would feel bad things about the father, Howard, 261 00:13:19.240 --> 00:13:21.720 because he may have been abusive, but at no point 262 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:24.840 has anyone indicated that the police ever considered him to 263 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:26.000 be a suspect. 264 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:29.240 So do we know anything about David having like a 265 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.679 pattern of compulsive lying prior to this? 266 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:35.639 I know that many years later Margaret would say that 267 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.519 David did have a history of making up stories for attention, 268 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:41.799 So it is possible that maybe he just decided to 269 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:44.000 come up with these fake stories at the time for 270 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.720 attention as a cry for help. Maybe he was upset 271 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:49.200 that his sister was getting all the attention because she 272 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.759 had gone missing. What I find interesting is that one 273 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.120 of his stories involved him saying that he last saw 274 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:57.759 Martha walking towards the Little Champ convenience store, and in 275 00:13:57.759 --> 00:13:59.679 the statement he made to the police years later, he 276 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.799 talked about how they had gone to the store and 277 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.159 Martha did give him the correct change back from the 278 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.240 twenty dollars bill. So it is interesting that a piece 279 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:11.000 of one of his original stories eventually wound up at 280 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:12.440 his confession years later. 281 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:15.799 And I do find it interesting as well that he's 282 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.120 got a pattern of lying and making up stories for attention. 283 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:21.840 We know that he comes from an abusive household, and 284 00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:25.320 I know that memories that are laid down in childhood, 285 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.039 it can become very convoluted over time, and one can 286 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:32.759 almost convince themselves that certain things are true. And we 287 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:35.559 run across different cases like that. So I'm not saying 288 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:37.919 that he's guilty or he's innocent, just that I'm keeping 289 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.639 an open mind and thinking there's a possibility that he 290 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:43.679 fabricated all of this and there was a van that 291 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:47.399 abducted her, But also there's a possibility that he could 292 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.480 have done this, and that's why he's lying and changing 293 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:51.080 his story. 294 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.679 Yeah, And that's the issue of this case is that 295 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:56.120 there really isn't any hard evidence it's to point in 296 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.720 any direction. In regards to the oldest brother, Raymond, that 297 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.240 really isn't much information about him. I know that Margaret 298 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:05.240 has said that she believed he was in church that 299 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:08.080 night and nowhere near the mobile home at the time 300 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:11.360 Martha went missing. So he has never been suspected, but 301 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:14.639 Margaret would later say that shortly after Martha went missing, 302 00:15:14.759 --> 00:15:17.919 she got a call from a young girl who just said, Mom, 303 00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:21.159 I'm okay before abruptly hanging up, but she never said 304 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.039 she was Martha, and Margaret thought that her voice, the 305 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.240 caller's voice did not sound like her daughter, so it 306 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.600 could have been a prank. And then David said that 307 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:31.120 he got a phone call from Martha who said she 308 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:33.480 was later going to contact the police to let them 309 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.200 know that she was alive and reveal where she was. 310 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:39.639 But this never occurred, and David's story was never corroborated, 311 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:41.519 so for all we know, he could have been completely 312 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.600 making up this story about receiving a phone call from Martha, 313 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:47.679 either because he just felt like getting attention or because 314 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.279 he was responsible for killing her and wanted to give 315 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.559 off the false impression she was still alive somewhere. 316 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:57.039 Oh, this is so difficult because we now know that 317 00:15:57.120 --> 00:15:59.879 he is a pattern of this. So is he trying 318 00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:03.639 to get attention or is he trying to just completely 319 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.879 change the narrative every chance he gets and includes certain 320 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:11.039 details or exclude other ones. So he's trying to distract 321 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.720 from the fact that he's guilty. It's a really difficult 322 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:17.720 case because of the age of the perpetrator, but also 323 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.720 because of the background of the trauma and the abuse 324 00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:24.360 in the household. It opens up a lot of possibilities here. 325 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:28.279 Yeah, because you could totally interpret like David's actions and 326 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.200 his statements in either way. And that's why I said that. 327 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.000 When I've looked at online discussions about this case on Reddit, 328 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.600 the opinions about David's guilt or innocence are split fifty 329 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:40.440 to fifty. Like I know, I've changed my mind many times, 330 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:42.519 and you can just interpret them in so many different 331 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.960 ways that it's hard to come up with a concrete conclusion. 332 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.399 So it's been reported that Martha's disappearance put more strain 333 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:53.519 on the marriage between Margaret and Howard, which wasn't that 334 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.840 great to begin with. So they eventually did get divorced, 335 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.440 and Howard passed away a short time later because he 336 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:02.919 was already seventy four years old at this point. Margaret 337 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:06.039 eventually moved to Illinois and got remarried, but when her 338 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:09.759 second husband died, she returned to Florida sometime during the 339 00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:13.039 two thousands, and it's been reported that David and Raymond 340 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.720 the two brothers have went on to have troubles with 341 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.799 the law, and I don't know many much details about 342 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.079 their crimes, but it doesn't sound like they had any 343 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.279 documented history of violence or anything like that, or anything 344 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:28.000 to any warning signs that David may have been capable 345 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:32.319 of killing his sister at the age of fourteen. But still, 346 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:34.680 you could tell that this whole incident caused a downward 347 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:37.759 spiral with the family, and that regardless of whether David 348 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.400 is guilty or innocent, you can tell that losing his 349 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.000 sister caused him to like go on a downward spiral 350 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:44.519 throughout the next couple decades. 351 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.759 That's really sad, especially when you see there's a potential 352 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:52.400 that he could be fabricating this whole thing. It could 353 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.799 have just been for this need for attention, because he 354 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.200 wasn't having a lot of his needs potentially met in 355 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:02.039 a use of household where everything just seemed to be 356 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:04.720 in constant flux and not in a way that was 357 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:09.240 supportive to his siblings and himself. So it's an odd 358 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:11.880 way to act out, but I can definitely see a 359 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:16.720 scenario where that's exactly what he's doing, and regardless of 360 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.680 if he is responsible or if somebody else is responsible 361 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:23.640 the death of his sister and you haven't told me yet. 362 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.000 But do they go on to recover her body. 363 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:28.640 They don't know. So they have never found any corroborating 364 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.240 evidence to support David's story. They do check the spot 365 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:33.880 where he claimed he buried her, but found no evidence 366 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.960 to prove that his story was true. 367 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.000 Well, that completely changes my perspective based on what we've 368 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.359 been saying so far, I'm more inclined to believe that 369 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:46.359 he's fabricating the whole thing. 370 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:50.119 Yes, and he could be fabricating it because he's innocent, 371 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:52.400 or he could be fabricating it because he did something 372 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:54.680 else to her and just doesn't want to reveal the 373 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.359 real truth. But well, we'll talk more about that when 374 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:01.000 we get to that confession. The state than we analyzed 375 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.359 in our last episode was from two thousand and nine, 376 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.440 but believe it or not, David actually made a second 377 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:09.960 confession nine years earlier, in the year two thousand, which 378 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:14.000 had different details. It came about after he was arrested 379 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.559 for passing a bad check, and while he was in custody, 380 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.440 he told police that he was responsible for killing his 381 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:22.000 sister and that he had disposed to verbody in a 382 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:26.359 Kokuena mine on Holmes Boulevard which was known as the Pits, 383 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.599 and this is a different location that he confessed to 384 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.240 in his second confession years later. But they did perform 385 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:35.799 a search of this mind, but they did not find 386 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.240 Martha's remains or any evidence to corroborate his story. So 387 00:19:39.440 --> 00:19:41.960 David was not charged and the police at that time 388 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.759 pretty much thought he was making the story up for attention. 389 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.720 But it was only after a pair of cold case 390 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:52.319 detectives named Sean Tice and Howard skip Cole took over 391 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.119 the case several years later that they decided to make 392 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:58.079 a take a fresh look at David and that's when 393 00:19:58.119 --> 00:19:59.960 he went on to make his second confession. 394 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.400 Well, that's really interesting. I think the fact that there's 395 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:08.119 no corroborating evidence to support any of the locations that 396 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:11.599 he's saying it just further reinforces It's like what I 397 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.519 just did a little while ago. I think he's making 398 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.480 this up. He's coming up with this information. If you're 399 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.160 going to be continually confessing to investigators, I would think 400 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.640 that at some point you're going to give accurate information. 401 00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:26.599