WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.759 Today, we're diving into a powerful story of resilience and 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:08.320 self discovery. Jared Walker grew up in a world consumed 3 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:12.320 by fear. An eight year old child convinced that the 4 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:16.480 end of the days were right around the corner. Raised 5 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:21.079 in the Worldwide Church of God, a white supremacist doomsday cult, 6 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:27.600 Walker's childhood was dominated by apocalyptic prophecies and disturbing doctrines. 7 00:00:28.280 --> 00:00:33.920 Yet despite his church's racial prejudices, Walker's black family believed 8 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:38.280 they were chosen for salvation. But when the promised dooms 9 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:42.159 day didn't arrive in nineteen seventy two, his family, like 10 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.359 many others, faced a reckoning. How do you rebuild a 11 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:50.439 life when your beliefs have been shattered? Today, we'll explore 12 00:00:50.520 --> 00:00:54.920 Walker's journey from a childhood defined by control and fear 13 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.439 to finding his own path free from the shadows of fantasism. 14 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:05.079 This story forces us to reflect on how institutions can 15 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:12.359 manipulate the vulnerable, and how reclaiming one's autonomy requires immense courage. 16 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:16.879 Stay tuned as we unpack Gerald Walker's transformation from a 17 00:01:17.000 --> 00:01:21.000 child trapped in a cult to a writer who reclaimed 18 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.640 his life. This story is from the Guardian by Steve Rose, 19 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:29.760 published on September tenth, twenty twenty four. So, aj, I'm 20 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:34.799 coming to you what role does fear play in maintaining 21 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:40.079 control within doomsday cults? And why do some individuals remain 22 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.680 loyal even after predictions fail. 23 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:47.000 I think that it always comes down to childhood, to 24 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.599 how you're raised. If you see in many of these 25 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:57.840 very extreme religious cults, or even Christianity Catholicism, you find 26 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:03.319 that kids erase to believe things are the same level 27 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:07.640 of factulness. Right. You teach kids something like we need 28 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:12.080 water to survive, or Jesus perform miracles, or you're going 29 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.560 to go to hell if you don't do X, y Z, 30 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.439 and all of these things become exactly the same. They 31 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:23.000 become just as true as the other. So you grow 32 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:26.159 up believing all these things. You grow up believing that 33 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:28.439 your soul is going to go to hell if you 34 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:32.280 don't do as you're told. And generally this is being 35 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:36.919 taught by people in a position of high authority, leaders 36 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:40.840 of the church, even parents. Unfortunately, parents don't really have 37 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:44.439 that choice of becoming that because they grew up exactly 38 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:47.840 the same way. And I think this is how people 39 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:52.560 go from childhood to adulthood, thinking that they have to 40 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:57.719 stay within these structures, within these cults, no matter how 41 00:02:57.759 --> 00:02:58.960 harmful they become. 42 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:04.400 I was thinking about how psychological factors can also make 43 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:10.360 one susceptible to this. Did you want to possibly touch 44 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:15.520 on that, Scott, Like, what factors make people susceptible to 45 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:20.120 joining or staying in harmful organizations that Aj just alluded to, 46 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:23.639 like the world where Church of God despite clear, like 47 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:25.319 crystal clear contradiction. 48 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:25.840 Right. 49 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.919 Well, I mean we're social, social species, right, and so 50 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:33.439 we're influenced a lot by our society, by our people 51 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:35.599 that we see as peers, people that we want to 52 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:37.639 be like, that we want to be around, that we 53 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.039 rely on to help us, that they rely on us. 54 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:42.879 That gives us a sense of purpose and a sense 55 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:45.840 of belonging. And so being part of a group is 56 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:52.120 just a massively huge influence on an individual of any age. 57 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:57.400 But as Aj pointed out, children have the additional I 58 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.960 shouldn't really call it a drawback because we evolved to 59 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.599 develop this way. But children really just believe whatever their 60 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:06.639 parents say. You know, they they start out, they'll believe 61 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.759 whatever they say. They'll do whatever you tell them to do, 62 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:12.599 and they'll stick with it. And and so that at 63 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.280 that early age. I think it was Aristotle that said, 64 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:17.120 you know that famous quote, give me a man by 65 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:19.480 age seven, or no, give me a child, but before 66 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.040 age seven, and I'll give you the man, meaning that 67 00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:24.879 if you can, if you can implant, implant, if you 68 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:29.959 can encourage particular beliefs at that young age, then they 69 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:33.040 will last throughout their lifetime. But even once we you know, 70 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:35.800 we see adults joining these groups and staying in these groups, 71 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:38.079 and you know, why can't they just decide to leave 72 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.680 the group after the fact. Well, because there's lots of 73 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.839 social support in those groups, there's lots of uh, it's 74 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:49.079 frowned upon to question the beliefs of the organization and 75 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:53.639 especially to question the you know, the leaders of those organizations. 76 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:55.959 In the In the previous section segment that we talked 77 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:59.000 about this week, we brought up the idea of authoritarianism 78 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:01.759 and so that that you know, very much central to 79 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.759 the to many religions. You know, many religions have a 80 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:07.079 god at the at the at the head, and who 81 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:09.319 dictates what what should be done and what you should 82 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:11.439 not be doing, and that kind of thing. And so 83 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:15.120 from the very beginning from day one, from page one, 84 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:19.360 even it's a it's a very authoritarian approach and so 85 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:22.199 and once somebody gets in with a group like that, 86 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.959 it's very tough to shake those feelings because you feel 87 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:27.720 like you're rejecting your identity, you feel like you're rejecting 88 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:30.360 your friends and family. And so, you know, we have 89 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.839 very evolved, strong emotions that try to keep us tied 90 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:38.120 to that group, even at the expense of our own 91 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:41.920 well being and and truth to be honest, and so 92 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:46.360 so psychology definitely has a major impact on that. And 93 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.759 that's what makes it so, that's why that this kind 94 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:52.040 of phenomena is so persistent, is because it's our nature 95 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.759 to kind of go along with it and to and 96 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:57.480 to stay with it. You know, we've seen so many 97 00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:59.800 of these, uh you know, these ends of the world 98 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:03.399 group professing to know when the world we're in and 99 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:06.920 obviously they've been wrong so far every time, every time 100 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:09.319 you would think it would sink in and it's not. 101 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.240 So there's got to be something happening behind the scenes. 102 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:15.759 And I think it's that, you know, you know, our 103 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:19.639 evolved psychology, which happens to have a side effect of 104 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.639 you know, promoting this type of blind belief, and it 105 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:25.759 can be frustrating, but it's human nature and it's probably 106 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.000 not going to change anytime soon. 107 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:29.439 You know, Scott, you brought up something that I kind 108 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:32.519 of want to touch on because of the struction of 109 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:37.160 this particular church worldwide church being not only a doomsday cult, 110 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:41.959 but a white supremacist doomsday cult. And you can even 111 00:06:42.079 --> 00:06:48.959 imagine Gerald Walker's family being part of this organization, being 112 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:53.399 a black family in the sixties, seventies, in the sixties 113 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:57.879 and the seventies, listening to their rhetoric, being who they 114 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:02.199 are because you can't change your race, and still having 115 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:05.680 to believe or being taught that they have to believe 116 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:08.639 the things that's being talked to them over the pulpit. 117 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:11.800 I kind of want you both to kind of, you know, 118 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.199 glance on this, because I believe both of you are 119 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:16.600 brought it up in your own research. But Ag I'm 120 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:21.759 coming to you first. How can the intersection of race 121 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:28.120 and religion complicates one's identity, especially in environments where white 122 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:29.800 supremacy is normalized. 123 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.839 You know, I think a lot of these doomstaate Coats 124 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:41.199 and other extremely nationalistic type of Christianity. It wasn't very extreme. 125 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:46.560 They use that type of philosophy that makes it where 126 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.519 the rules have to be exactly this, and then you 127 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:53.079 have to follow these rules. So to me, like the 128 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.639 most surprising aspect of the specific story of Walker was 129 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:02.600 the cognitive dissonance that was sorry to justify participating in 130 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:07.199 a group that actively segregated its members. So Walker mentioned 131 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.680 that black members had their own separate church and they 132 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:13.920 were not allowed inside the white church, and it made 133 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:18.160 me wonder whether the rules were even the same, given 134 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:21.480 that you know, even heavenly rules were different. For example, 135 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:26.000 the church founder made it very clear by preaching that 136 00:08:26.120 --> 00:08:29.199 white people were made in the image of God and 137 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.759 black people were put on earth to be white people's servants, 138 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:38.120 and that heaven would also be segregated. So even though 139 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:41.519 black people were going to be saved and were allowed 140 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:44.600 in the church, it would not be with white people. 141 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:49.799 So Walker stated that the church founder Armstrong used a 142 00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:54.879 scripture from the Bible to excuse that racism, which actually 143 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:58.879 helped the black members accept the idea that they were 144 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:03.000 inferior to white people because it came straight from the Bible. 145 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.480 And as I mentioned earlier, these are words that you 146 00:09:06.480 --> 00:09:10.200 are meant to take literally and strictly and these are 147 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:14.440 these are the rules. So this, unfortunately is far too 148 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:19.240 similar to like the horrific practices of slave Bibles that 149 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:22.759 were used to indoctrinate slaves right to keep them obedient 150 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.720 to their white masters and preserve the system of oppression 151 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:29.039 of African slaves. And I feel like they were using 152 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:31.120 a very similar concept here. 153 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:34.279 That's what I thought of as soon as I read 154 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.879 that part, is like, this is the same type of 155 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:45.159 techniques that were used in the Antebello South during slavery. 156 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:51.960 The Slave Bible specifically omitted passages that alluded to anything 157 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:59.080 that had to do with freedom, emancipation, being able to 158 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:03.240 even you know, see yourselves as like your counterpart. Because 159 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:06.960 I believe that passage, I want to say, I'm not 160 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:09.879 sure if it's in Nophesians or if it's I know 161 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:13.440 it's like one of Paul's books where it says there's 162 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:18.519 neither male nor female, Greek, nor Greek, nor Jew, bond 163 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:21.519 nor free. We are all one in Jesus Christ. So 164 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.799 that would be a passage that would have been completely 165 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:30.240 taken out. Matter of fact, I believe that the majority 166 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:35.080 of exodus in the Slave Bible was completely omitted because 167 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:40.519 that is a story specifically talking about, right about how 168 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:46.679 God freed the children of Israel because He was their 169 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:50.200 chosen people and they were bonded to too long in Egypt. 170 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.960 So it's interesting how a lot of times and I 171 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:57.759 think about this and you guys, just forgive me. I 172 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:03.279 just gotta I gotta get this out for a moment, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 173 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:05.679 this is kind of the thing that I talk about 174 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:10.559 a lot. But it's interesting how one can use the 175 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:14.639 Bible specifically just by cherry picking certain ports in order 176 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:18.879 to fit a narrative that you're trying to basically propagate. Right, 177 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:26.080 So this whole notion of white people are superior to 178 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:29.360 black people, that this is the reason why we have 179 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:32.120 to keep you separate and have you regulated to certain 180 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.440 positions in the church. You cannot be a church leader 181 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:39.840 or you can only be an underling. So far because 182 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:43.639 you are black, you are not white. And God has 183 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:47.759 a specific area that white people are supposed to occupy 184 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.559 and a specific area that black people are supposed to occupy, 185 00:11:51.919 --> 00:11:54.720 and that is to be white people's servants. It's the 186 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:59.600 same thing that was also written in mind Come by Hitler. 187 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:03.240 He said the exact same thing. He even though he 188 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:09.000 is said basically very anti Semitic things against Jewish Jewish people, 189 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:12.240 but when he got to other groups of people, especially 190 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:16.559 black people, he said, well, you're not evil per se, 191 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.840 but Jay that smarten either. So the only thing that 192 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:25.159 you really can do is this be servants to the arians, 193 00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:25.440 i e. 194 00:12:25.559 --> 00:12:27.120 White people, the perfect white people. 195 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:27.360 Right. 196 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.720 So it's it's it's interesting, like how I keep saying 197 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:34.360 interesting because like you know, I'm trying to I'm trying 198 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:36.799 to be objection I'm trying to be objective here, guys. 199 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:41.240 But it's it's, uh, yeah, I should actually say it's 200 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:46.080 dumbfounding that these this particular rhetoric exists, and how it 201 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:51.879 has been recycled in generation after generation, and how and 202 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:56.240 how superbly effective it is in order to actually keep 203 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.960 a certain group of people subjugated. But I'm sorry, Scott, 204 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:02.039 I was taken away from my question that I was 205 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.440 asking you, because I know you alluded to that particularly 206 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.879 that same thing as well in your research, So please talk. 207 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:10.200 Well, I mean, it's it's going back to the to 208 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:11.200 the racial issue. 209 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:11.440 Right. 210 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.639 If I remember correctly from the article, this particular group 211 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.480 preached that black people were lower than than white people. 212 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:23.159 But then they also said that the black people that 213 00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:27.840 participated in their group were a notch above black people 214 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:30.039 that were not part of the group. And so I 215 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.639 think perhaps what we can see here. I'm not not 216 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.519 an expert on this, and I'm certainly not all that 217 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:39.960 knowledgeable on what it's like to be a black person 218 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:41.120 going to church. 219 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:43.519 But we'll talk after this. 220 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.399 Yeah, Okay, you're right, you give me the give me 221 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:46.519 the inside scoop on that. 222 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:47.080 Sure. 223 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:50.159 But but we see this kind of thing with like 224 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:56.440 conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists. Psychologists say that they're attracted 225 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:58.759 to these kind of things because they feel like they're special, 226 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:02.000 like they they're in on some kind of special information, 227 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.519 they know something that the rest of the population will know, 228 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:08.639 or in this case, they're they're part of a group 229 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:12.080 that's going to survive at you know, when humanity gets 230 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:13.879 wiped out in that kind of thing, or they're going 231 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.480 to be sitting at the at the head of the table, 232 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:19.600 or at least, you know, maybe serving the head of 233 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.919 the table, but at least being part of that process. 234 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.440 And so it's it's hard to imagine that that kind 235 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:30.000 of impetus would be powerful enough to to encourage a 236 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.559 family that we're stuck in a situation where they were 237 00:14:33.559 --> 00:14:35.840 being looked down upon. They and they would look forward 238 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:37.360 to it. They would they would lap it up and 239 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.679 say please, can I have some more? And it was 240 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.799 just very It's very it was very frustrating to read. 241 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:43.360 For one thing. 242 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.000 It was very I could feel my chest tightening, and 243 00:14:46.039 --> 00:14:49.120 I could feel my stomach getting all riled up. And 244 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:52.960 it was just a very unfortunate situation. But I think 245 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.799 we see it quite a bit. And and and it's 246 00:14:55.879 --> 00:14:58.879 not just racial issues too. You you wonder why a 247 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.360 black family would be to this church group. But at 248 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:04.120 the same hand, we can we can wonder why women 249 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.080 flock to Christian churches. I mean, women are not uh 250 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:10.799 you know, they don't have an exalted spot in the Bible, 251 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.879 and uh you know or LGBTQ people, right, why why 252 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:18.519 do they continue to support their Christian you know, their pope, 253 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.799 even their pope who says that, you know, you can't 254 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:23.519 be gay if you want to if you want to 255 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:26.600 get into heaven. And so it's from that from the outside, 256 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:29.480 we might boggle our minds and think, how could somebody 257 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.320 fall for this stick right, but you know, it's it's 258 00:15:32.440 --> 00:15:35.279 it's got there's got to be some part of human uh, 259 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.039 the human condition that urges us to go into that way. 260 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:40.600 And I think the the being part of the special group, 261 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:44.120 being in on the on that uh, this secret knowledge 262 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:45.279 and that kind of thing being part of the in 263 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.399 group can be very very powerful motivator. 264 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:50.799 And clearly, uh, it happens here. 265 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:52.960 The second thing I would bring up, though, is that 266 00:15:53.679 --> 00:15:56.399 just religion in general, I think is very powerful. We 267 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:59.480 you know, we talk endlessly about how people are taught 268 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.759 not to quite in their religious beliefs. So so slaves 269 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.240 in the Antebellum South of the United States were we 270 00:16:06.519 --> 00:16:08.320 were taught that this was the way it was supposed 271 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.320 to be by your your slaves, obey your masters, even 272 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.720 the parole ones and and so uh. It literally says 273 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:17.519 that word for word in the Bible, and so so 274 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.679 so they're taught to it. It's a side effect of 275 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:23.399 or maybe even a feature, not a bug, but of 276 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:25.720 just religion religious thinking in general. 277 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:27.279 We talk about where's the harm. 278 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:29.919 This is a big piece of the harm, right there, 279 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:32.120 is that if you if you buy in, if you 280 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.240 take that first step into irrational belief, even even if 281 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:39.879 you are in the quote unquote friendly religion or liberal, 282 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.799 you know, Christian or that kind of thing. Just taking 283 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:46.039 that step across that threshold makes everybody on that side 284 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.799 of the threshold stronger. And so by by moving in 285 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.840 that direction, you're more likely to fall for these kinds 286 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:56.840 of statements, for these proclamations that different people are on 287 00:16:56.919 --> 00:16:59.960 different tiers and society. And you know, if you want 288 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:02.399 a question that you'd be questioning your identity, you'd be 289 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:03.840 questioning the entire group. 290 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:05.759 And so it's there's just it. 291 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.480 If you think about it from that perspective, it's amazing 292 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.240 that not more people are caught up in it, and 293 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.400 you know, it seems like it's just an overwhelming force 294 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.920 and it's it's very frustrating. So I think that makes 295 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.160 it all the more important that there's people like us 296 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:20.079 that want to talk about it. 297 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:22.200 Is quite a bit of people. 298 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.759 Yeah, and yeah, exactly, like you know, it's in Christianity, 299 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:29.799 like the biggest religion in the entire world. Yeah, well, 300 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:31.640 you know, I know that we were talking about, like, 301 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.519 you know, the whole thing about people being stuck in 302 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.519 this belief system, right, but you know, one of the 303 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.720 reasons why we are talking about this story specifically is 304 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:46.599 that Walt Walker found himself out right. So, ah, I'm 305 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:50.279 gonna come to you first reading the article, if you 306 00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:54.799 can just think about why do you believe that maybe 307 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:59.920 some individuals, why Walker, succeed in escaping the cycle of 308 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.960 reduction self destruction while others like his brother did not. 309 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.480 You know, I think it has a lot to do 310 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:11.119 with with also how you are, how you are raised, right, 311 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.279 like all of your your environment and your upbringing. You 312 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:18.519 may even be raised in the same house, but your 313 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:21.240 experiences the way that you're perceiving them are going to 314 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.720 be a little bit different. And I think a lot 315 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:29.039 of people who actually go into religion are taught not 316 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:33.000 to question, as we mentioned earlier, and not to not 317 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.559 to put too much thought on what these wolves are 318 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.720 telling them. Right, So there is a lot of focus 319 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:44.119 on this eternal life, and there are making so many 320 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:49.480 sacrifices on this earth to achieve that goal, and part 321 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:58.680 of that is attempting to I'm sorry to we're just 322 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:09.160 cut that off and even answer the question. Yeah, okay, 323 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.839 I'll start right there. So I think the reason that 324 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:17.119 some people are unable to come out of that is 325 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:21.359 because they just completely refuse to use that method of 326 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.240 critical thinking, right, and there are people who are who 327 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:28.279 are actually exposed to two new ideas. One of the 328 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.559 things that I always find most fascinating is that people 329 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:35.519 who start reading or who got to college are some 330 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:39.880 of the ones who are more likely to convert from religion. 331 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:43.880 And as you mentioned Walker, he became a writer, and 332 00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.000 I believe that that was you know that and his passion. 333 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.160 He more than likely was somebody that that began reading 334 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:55.279 a whole lot. And I think that that information sort 335 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.079 of was the difference that it made between him and 336 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:00.839 his brother. You know that the access knowledge and it's 337 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:02.160 just that's just to information. 338 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:07.720 Maybe access to information is very important. I really believe 339 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:13.599 that when people are able to get different thoughts from 340 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:18.799 what has been put to them previously, and different ideas 341 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:25.480 and just a difference of even opinion can definitely interrupt 342 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:30.880 some aspects of indoctrination. And one of the things that 343 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:35.519 you know we are a part of is the atheist 344 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:39.359 community of Austin. And one of the things that is 345 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:43.240 the I believe the most important portion of that name 346 00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:48.559 is community. And I'm wondering what is our responsibility. I 347 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:50.720 want both of you all to just you know, just 348 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:53.079 kind of give like a minute response to this if 349 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:57.599 you can. What is the responsibility of communities like us 350 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:03.240 to have supporting people who are leaving harmful religions and 351 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:09.079 helping them integrate back into normalcy in society. Uh a 352 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.599 J I want you to go first, and then Scott 353 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:12.519 be around us up. 354 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:15.880 All right, Well, I want to go into something for 355 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.319 a second that I thought something that was really important 356 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:23.279 in this in this specific case, as I disabled person, 357 00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:26.440 myself being legally blind and death, I couldn't help but 358 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.759 sympathize with his parents. You know, both of his parents 359 00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.920 had lost their vision due to some traumatic accidents in childhood. 360 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.960 And I can recognize that religion and codes of them 361 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:41.079 pray on and take advantage vulnerable people who are going 362 00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:46.119 through experiences that are very traumatic like that. So Walker 363 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:50.160 said that his parents were promised that their bodies won't 364 00:21:50.200 --> 00:21:53.079 be whole and that they won't regain vision when Chris 365 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.720 Christ returned, and he believed and I agreed, that his 366 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:02.160 parents' blindness played role in why they were so willing 367 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:05.160 to participate in this court. That was you know, in turn, 368 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:08.720 extremely harmful to his full family. So to answer, to 369 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:11.680 go back to your question, I think that this is 370 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:16.000 something that we as the secular community can do more 371 00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:19.839 for to help people who are more vulnerable. Right Like 372 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:23.119 in their case, there were blind people and both of 373 00:22:23.160 --> 00:22:25.880 their parents were blind, and I think that the community 374 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:28.920 as a whole could have done so much more to 375 00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.400 give them the support that they truly needed to succeed, 376 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:36.359 so that they didn't turn to such a controlling environment 377 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:39.079 that eventually, you know, took advantage of them and took 378 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.359 their money, and took their happiness and took you know, 379 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:46.480 Walker's life basically was was completely entangled in that. 380 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:49.200 Yeah, I think that's uh. I think that's very important. 381 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:53.160 And we also need to take into consideration speaking of 382 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:58.640 the responsibilities of communities like ours. We talked about information already, 383 00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:02.319 So first of all, providing information. It's it's it's important 384 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:04.680 that people like both of you are saying that people 385 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:08.200 hear a variety of perspectives, that hear a variety of opinions, 386 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:12.279 that hear a variety of approaches to thinking. Uh, And 387 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:17.640 so that in itself can give an individual, can empower 388 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:20.319 them to make changes in their own life, can it 389 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.200 can empower them to think about things in a slightly 390 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:27.759 different way to quote unquote rely on their worldly thing, 391 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.160 you know, their worldly reasoning and that kind of stuff. 392 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:33.000 But I think it's also important that communities like ours 393 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:38.440 and AJ was talking about this do provide support. I mean, 394 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.200 it can be traumatic to leave a situation like that, 395 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.640 to leave a situation where your family is supported, where 396 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.839 you're where you feel loved, where you feel have friendships, 397 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.759 where you identify with the group. And these these small 398 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:54.839 cult groups are I mean, they could be very tight, 399 00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:58.640 and so their their identity is very closely tied into 400 00:23:58.759 --> 00:23:59.240 that group. 401 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:01.839