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<v Speaker 1>Hi everyone. As you might know, we don't get any

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<v Speaker 1>sort of funding from any wealthy benefactors, academic institutions, governments,

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<v Speaker 1>or political parties. Our work is funded by you, our

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<v Speaker 1>listeners and readers on Patreon. In return, our supporters on

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<v Speaker 1>Patreon get access to exclusive content and benefits like ad

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<v Speaker 1>free episodes, bonus podcast episodes, and two exclusive Patreon only

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<v Speaker 1>podcast series, Fireside Chats and Radical Reads. So here's a

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<v Speaker 1>little preview of our latest Patreon only episode. You can

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<v Speaker 1>join us, help support our work and listen to the

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<v Speaker 1>full episode today at patreon dot com slash working class

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<v Speaker 1>History link in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 2>As we come, Margin Martin and the Beauty of the Day,

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<v Speaker 2>A million dark in kitchens, one thousand mil last grade

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<v Speaker 2>are branden by the beauty, his sun Sun discloses, and

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<v Speaker 2>the paople here as bretten' roses bad Roses.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi everyone, and welcome to the second episode in our

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<v Speaker 1>Radical Reads series, a series in which we talk about

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<v Speaker 1>historical and political texts that we think are important for

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<v Speaker 1>workers and radicals to read, discuss, and inform our organizing.

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<v Speaker 1>A quick note that this episode contains discussion of war crimes,

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<v Speaker 1>sexual violence, and torture. Our Radical read for this episode

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<v Speaker 1>is Alia A. Yub's recent article hes Bolla Ten Things

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<v Speaker 1>You Need to Know. Elia would introduce himself properly in

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<v Speaker 1>a moment, but as a brief introduction to his introduction.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a Lebanese Palestinian activist and co founder of the

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<v Speaker 1>excellent Fire These Times podcast, which seeks to developed properly

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<v Speaker 1>internationalist perspectives on politics, not just in the Middle East,

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<v Speaker 1>but more generally in the Global South or what they

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes call, quite usefully in my opinion, the global Periphery.

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<v Speaker 1>So we invited Eleion to discuss his article on Hezbollah.

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<v Speaker 1>We felt that it was important to do so as

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<v Speaker 1>a year after beginning its genocidal campaign in Gaza, Israel

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<v Speaker 1>has now expanded its military actions into Lebanon, supposedly with

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<v Speaker 1>the aim of degrading Hesbela's military capability and allow and

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<v Speaker 1>evacuated Israelis to return to their homes in northern Israel

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<v Speaker 1>and the occupied Goden Heights. The reality of this is

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<v Speaker 1>that Israel has launched yet another monstrous invasion of Lebanon.

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<v Speaker 1>Beyond the supposedly targeted pagro and radio attacks, which we

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<v Speaker 1>discuss in more detail later, thousands of Lebanese civilians have

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<v Speaker 1>already been killed and over a million displaced. Israeli attacks

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<v Speaker 1>have also not been limited to southern Lebanon, but also

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<v Speaker 1>the capital Beirute, where whole tower blocks have been leveled

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<v Speaker 1>by Israeli bombs, and even the North. Israeli attacks have

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<v Speaker 1>forced hospitals to close, and firefighters, emergency rescue and hospital

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<v Speaker 1>workers have all been killed while trying to save the

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<v Speaker 1>victims of Israeli aggression, with euromed human rights monitors suggesting

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<v Speaker 1>that the Israeli army is intentionally targeting rescue workers and

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<v Speaker 1>for those laboring under the impression that somehow Israel's invasion

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<v Speaker 1>is supposed to protect Lebanese Christians. Israel has also bombed

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<v Speaker 1>a church housing displaced people in southern Lebanon and a

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<v Speaker 1>Christian majority town in the north. If all of this

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<v Speaker 1>feels chillingly familiar, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanya who spelled

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<v Speaker 1>it out explicitly in a recent televised address. In it,

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<v Speaker 1>he threatened the Lebanese people with quote the abyss of

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<v Speaker 1>a long war that will lead to destruction and suffering

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<v Speaker 1>like we see in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 3>End quote.

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<v Speaker 1>Here we see the genocide that Israel claims not to

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<v Speaker 1>be carrying out in Gaza used as a threat against

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<v Speaker 1>Lebanon and indeed others in the region. Unsurprisingly, much of

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<v Speaker 1>this has even been left out of or de emphasized

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<v Speaker 1>in mainstream accounts of the conflict and of Hesbula itself. Furthermore,

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<v Speaker 1>much of the narrative talks about Lebanon as a monolith

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<v Speaker 1>and speaks about the conflict between Israel and Hesbola in

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that simplifies a much more complex reality

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<v Speaker 1>in Lebanon, not just in terms of religious and sectarian divisions,

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<v Speaker 1>but also in terms of the class struggle and social

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<v Speaker 1>antagonism in the country, some of which we discussed in

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<v Speaker 1>this episode. I've already gone on for far too long,

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<v Speaker 1>but before we start, it's important to say that in

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<v Speaker 1>our discussion me and Elijah sometimes mentioned some things that

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<v Speaker 1>we didn't get around to explaining who or what they are.

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<v Speaker 1>So here are some brief explanations of some of the

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<v Speaker 1>key terms and names that we mention. These are also

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<v Speaker 1>gathered together in a glossary that will put in the

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<v Speaker 1>show notes. So Sunni and Shia refer to the two

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<v Speaker 1>main branches of Islam, with Sunni Islam being the far

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<v Speaker 1>larger of the two. Sunni Islam is the official religion

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<v Speaker 1>of Saudi Arabia, while Shia Islam is the official religion

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<v Speaker 1>of Iran. Hassan Israla was the former General secretary of

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<v Speaker 1>Hezbollah until his assassination by Israel earlier this year. Bashar

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<v Speaker 1>al Asad is the current President of Syria, a position

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<v Speaker 1>that he's held since July two thousand and when he

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<v Speaker 1>took over from his dad, Hafez Alasad, who had himself

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<v Speaker 1>been president since nineteen seventy one. Within these fifty plus

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<v Speaker 1>years of dictatorship run by father and son, Syria occupied

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<v Speaker 1>Lebanon for almost thirty years, which Ala will speak more about.

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<v Speaker 1>The occupation spanned almost the entirety of Halfes' reign, starting

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen seventy six and only ended when Bashah withdrew

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<v Speaker 1>in two thousand and five. The PLO refers to the

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<v Speaker 1>Palestine Liberation Organization. The PLO is made up of a

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<v Speaker 1>number of largely secular nationalist groups and is the official

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<v Speaker 1>representative of the Palestinian people recognized by the UN and Israel. However,

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<v Speaker 1>while in the past the PLO was called for the

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<v Speaker 1>dissolution of the State of Israel and took part in

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<v Speaker 1>armed action against it, and indeed some of its constituent

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<v Speaker 1>members still do. It is often seen as having been

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<v Speaker 1>co opted due to its official renunciation of political violence

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<v Speaker 1>and recognition of Israel in the nineties. Notably, Hamas is

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<v Speaker 1>not a member of the PLO. The Muslim Brotherhood is

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<v Speaker 1>a transnational conservative Sunni Muslim organization that originated in Egypt.

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<v Speaker 1>In Palestine, the Muslim Brotherhood was fundamental in creating the

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<v Speaker 1>institutional basis for what would become HAMAS. In Lebanon, the

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<v Speaker 1>Muslim Brotherhood is represented by a political party called the

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<v Speaker 1>Islamic Group, which has its own military wing. We mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and Syria. In both cases, many

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<v Speaker 1>of these are individuals and their descendants who are expelled

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<v Speaker 1>from Palestine by Zionist paramilitaries during the nineteen forty eight war,

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<v Speaker 1>also known as the Nakba, which is the Arabic word

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<v Speaker 1>for catastrophe. We cover these events in more detail in

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<v Speaker 1>our podcast episodes eighty six and eighty seven. There are

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<v Speaker 1>around one hundred and seventy four thousand Palestinian refugees in

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<v Speaker 1>Lebanon and four hundred and thirty eight thousand in Syria,

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<v Speaker 1>all refuse the right to return home by Israel and

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<v Speaker 1>with diminishtriting in their host countries, and in the case

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<v Speaker 1>of Syria, victims to a number of massacres at the

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<v Speaker 1>hands of pro Sad forces during the Syrian Civil War,

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<v Speaker 1>such as the Armuk massacre in twenty fourteen. Finally, we

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned the Sabra and Shatila massacre, which was the nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty two massacre at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps

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<v Speaker 1>in Beirut. Over a forty hour period between two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and three thousand, five hundred Palestinians were killed by Lebanese

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<v Speaker 1>Christian forces. This was done with the full support of

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<v Speaker 1>the Israeli army, who had surrounded the camps to block

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<v Speaker 1>Palestinians from escaping and allowed the Christian Malicius to enter,

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<v Speaker 1>at which point they carried out acts of murder, rape

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<v Speaker 1>and torture against the civilian population, including children as young

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<v Speaker 1>as three or four. With that important and often harrowing context,

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<v Speaker 1>will now let Eliyah introduce himself.

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<v Speaker 3>So my name is Idi, a yub from Lebanon.

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<v Speaker 4>Acre up there also better in origins, which has informed

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<v Speaker 4>part of my politics, first within a Lebanese context, and

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<v Speaker 4>then let's say internationally or towards like having more nuanced

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<v Speaker 4>take on internationalism. Let's put it that way for now.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm a post doctor researcher. I have a PhD on

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<v Speaker 4>post to Elebanon from the University of Zurich, currently based

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<v Speaker 4>in the UK. And yeah, I have a podcast qualified

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<v Speaker 4>these Times, a newsletter called Ontologies. I do a bunch

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<v Speaker 4>of projects here and there. I contribute to a Jazeera

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<v Speaker 4>at ninety seven to two mag a bunch of other

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<v Speaker 4>places others. I'm an editor for Shadow mag. I do

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<v Speaker 4>different tasks here and there, mostly on the Middle East,

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<v Speaker 4>but not only Well, yeah, I know.

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<v Speaker 1>You sound extremely busy. I'm very pleased that you've found

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<v Speaker 1>the time to come and chat to us.

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<v Speaker 3>I guess, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean the first thing really would be to say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, why do you feel the need to write

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<v Speaker 1>this article right now at this moment.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I wrote this piece on hesball Llah for my newsletter,

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<v Speaker 4>mostly to kind of get it out of my head,

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<v Speaker 4>to be honest with you, It did get much more

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<v Speaker 4>attention than I expected it, especially as I framed it

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<v Speaker 4>in the form of realistical, which is not I've never

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<v Speaker 4>done that, but I kind of felt that it was

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<v Speaker 4>important to do because I'm gonna say, eighty plus percent

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<v Speaker 4>of things I've read in at the very least the

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<v Speaker 4>English press, although honestly the French press has been more

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<v Speaker 4>or less the same.

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<v Speaker 3>On hesbald Lah has been not.

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<v Speaker 4>Necessarily factually inaccurate all the time, although that has been

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<v Speaker 4>a big problem.

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<v Speaker 3>But let's say, just missing the.

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<v Speaker 4>Mark a lot of the time, or focusing on certain

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<v Speaker 4>things and not others as part of a wider narrative.

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<v Speaker 4>That is not surprising. It's not the first time that

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<v Speaker 4>this happens sot, not the first time that there's a

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<v Speaker 4>war between Hesball and Israel, but I think the stakes

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<v Speaker 4>have been so much higher now since the genocide Satin.

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<v Speaker 4>This is about twelve over a year ago now that yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>I felt like something to be said for whatever that's worth.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean I think for me, I

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<v Speaker 1>think one of the starkest things was after the Israeli

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<v Speaker 1>kind of pager attacks and kind of the response from

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of the mainstream media being like, how could

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<v Speaker 1>you want an attack to be any more precise? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>It's like Hezbollah militants had these pages and how much

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<v Speaker 1>more precise do you want Israel to be? And it's

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<v Speaker 1>you feel like you're going mad because it's felt like

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<v Speaker 1>so many people were saying something so insanely wrong that

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<v Speaker 1>you don't even know where to start, you know. And

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<v Speaker 1>I guess we'll get onto that later about the page,

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<v Speaker 1>but sor, I don't know if you wanted to.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh no, just that I think the very words targeted

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<v Speaker 4>and precise and all of these have been just kind

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<v Speaker 4>of meaningless been used in very different ways that and

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<v Speaker 4>also used in ways that like they can be literally

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<v Speaker 4>accurate and like for example, or this was the targeted

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<v Speaker 4>strike on the hospital, Yeah, it was still a targeted

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<v Speaker 4>strike on the hospital, right, like the fire.

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<v Speaker 3>That was targeted doesn't.

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<v Speaker 4>If anything, it makes your culpability higher because we also

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<v Speaker 4>have intent now. So I don't know, there have been

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<v Speaker 4>quite a lot of politics of language, which is actually

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<v Speaker 4>part of my background as well, so I've been a

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<v Speaker 4>bit obsessed on that.

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<v Speaker 3>But we can get into that maybe.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I mean I guess

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<v Speaker 1>now would be a great time to go into kind

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<v Speaker 1>of what is his boola? And also, you know, can

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<v Speaker 1>you say a little bit about their origins. Where did

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<v Speaker 1>they come from?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure, I've gone through this, the genesis

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<v Speaker 4>of the party. I think i've memorized it by now.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 4>So they really came into the scene roughly a decade

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<v Speaker 4>into delib In in civil war. That's extremely important to understand.

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<v Speaker 4>There was an entire decade before they were of any

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<v Speaker 4>heat relevance. They didn't exist before eighty three, more or less,

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<v Speaker 4>but they officially formed in eighty five, and the Liliberines

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<v Speaker 4>Civil War, I should say, started in seventy five.

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<v Speaker 3>Even Thelibanese Civil War as a term is a bit.

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<v Speaker 4>Of a misnomer, just in the sense that there were

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<v Speaker 4>a bunch of different wars, a munch of different episodes,

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<v Speaker 4>a bunch of different actors, some not being there, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>not being around by the time it ended in nineteen

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<v Speaker 4>ninety and.

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<v Speaker 3>So on and so forth.

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<v Speaker 4>So that's important for number of reasons, because by the

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<v Speaker 4>time they came into the scene in Lebanon, there were

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<v Speaker 4>a bunch of different things already happening. There was they say,

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<v Speaker 4>in invasion in seventy six. There were multiple Israeli incursions,

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<v Speaker 4>including the Factor invasion that was short lasting, before eighty two,

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<v Speaker 4>and then obviously in nineteen eighty two the Israelis did

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<v Speaker 4>the fal Skin invasion and siege of Bayhood, which was

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<v Speaker 4>followed by the Sabuncatina massacre by their allies differentists, where

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<v Speaker 4>the israet Is quite literally preventing partestinants from leaving the

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<v Speaker 4>camps for three entire days. And then of course the

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<v Speaker 4>as I said the siege of Baywood and then they

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<v Speaker 4>would do and they occupied South Lebanon until two thousand,

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<v Speaker 4>so that's eighteen years of occupation. And it's in that

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<v Speaker 4>period that Hesbula came into the game. There was no Hasbala.

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<v Speaker 4>Before there was a movement called Amal, which means hope

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<v Speaker 4>in Arabic. I'm gonna be genuinalistic about Amahe because they're

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<v Speaker 4>very messy. But it started off as a working class movement,

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<v Speaker 4>largely among Shias in the South, but not just. One

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<v Speaker 4>of their founders was a Greek Catholic Melchite bishop. It

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<v Speaker 4>was secular and orientation borderline nationalists at times, but because

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<v Speaker 4>it was mostly working class and most of the South

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<v Speaker 4>was working class, and most of the working class in

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<v Speaker 4>the South was Shias, it was mostly a Shia Muslim

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<v Speaker 4>Out of Amal came a number of different parties. Long

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<v Speaker 4>story short, Hesbela was one of them. Some of the

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<v Speaker 4>early members of Hesbadla, some of their founders were part

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<v Speaker 4>of Nosola himself. If however, briefly, they were disillusioned with

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<v Speaker 4>Amal for various reasons. One, Ammal did not have good

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<v Speaker 4>funding and good weaponry. They by that time were already

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<v Speaker 4>very corrupt because they had participated in the libyanes of

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<v Speaker 4>war for ten years by then moles and so there

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<v Speaker 4>was a lot of corruption, a lot of warlordism, all

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<v Speaker 4>of that stuff. Moktata Sudd, who was the founder of Amal,

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<v Speaker 4>was forcibly disappeared in Libya, very likely killed by Kadaffi.

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<v Speaker 4>That he hated the power vacum, which led to Nebhiberia, who

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<v Speaker 4>is still in power to this day, who is not

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<v Speaker 4>oliously curbed. Long story short, They were seen as complacent

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<v Speaker 4>at the very least, if not complicit, in this radioccupation

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<v Speaker 4>of South Lebanon.

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<v Speaker 3>Amal was battling a bunch.

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<v Speaker 4>Of Palestinian armed groups at the same time at that time,

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<v Speaker 4>and that he hated a bunch of resentment. If you want,

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<v Speaker 4>we're want to put it that way, that led to

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<v Speaker 4>the oas of Hesbadla, which unlike Amal, had.

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<v Speaker 3>A very religious character.

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<v Speaker 4>So Hesbela came out of the Iranian revolution in nineteen

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<v Speaker 4>seventy nine, the theocratic one that put the Iotola in power.

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<v Speaker 4>Now we're with the second Ayatola. Of course, doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 4>that they are an Iranian party. They are a Lebanese party,

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<v Speaker 4>but they were filmed with that ideology constructure in a

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<v Speaker 4>very specific context, which was South Lebanon. Their leaders, whether

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<v Speaker 4>it's Mussawi the first leader, obviously Noscula after him, whether

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<v Speaker 4>it's a made Mornillier who was actually the leader of

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<v Speaker 4>Islamic Jihad organization but then became the number two of Hesballlah,

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<v Speaker 4>and others that are Some have minor roles, some have political,

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<v Speaker 4>overtly political roles, other more like let's say, religious leaders.

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<v Speaker 3>Some both. Nozula was both a clerk and a wordlord

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<v Speaker 3>at the same time.

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<v Speaker 4>They managed to kind of, let's say, impose discipline on

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<v Speaker 4>a nascent militia that then became a de facto army

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<v Speaker 4>to resist the Israelio occupation in South Lebanon, and for

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<v Speaker 4>many people this was the first time they see anything

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<v Speaker 4>remotely effective targeting the Israelis, which has helped has.

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<v Speaker 3>Balalah go in power. Now.

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<v Speaker 4>Parallel to all of this, hasbal Llah launched a campaign

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<v Speaker 4>of assassinations against prominent leftists who were also from the

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<v Speaker 4>same community, so she has This was two prominent names

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<v Speaker 4>that are usually mentioned, or there were more than that.

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<v Speaker 4>Seen Rue who was in his Ibeti seventies or eighties,

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<v Speaker 4>even better than I think, suffering from cancer or something

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<v Speaker 4>like that, and was assassinated in the middle of the

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<v Speaker 4>night like gunshot, and about three months later I believe

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<v Speaker 4>this was in nineteen eighty seven, Mehdia Amel, who was

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<v Speaker 4>by then already in hiding because he knew that Hesballa

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<v Speaker 4>was coming for him, and he wrote about it at

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<v Speaker 4>the time. They found him after three or four months

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<v Speaker 4>and they killed him as well. This served the same

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<v Speaker 4>purpose kind of. I described it as kind of the

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<v Speaker 4>Iranian playbook. For those who know the Iranian Revolution had

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<v Speaker 4>a pretty sizable participation of communists in the early days

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<v Speaker 4>until the toppling of the show, and then once that happened.

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<v Speaker 4>Even if I'm not missing, I don't know Irani history

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<v Speaker 4>as well. But if I'm not mistaken, even before that

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<v Speaker 4>that really happened. They cracked down started against them by

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<v Speaker 4>the nascent aetol Cotola movement effectively, which would become the

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<v Speaker 4>the theocratic regym, which.

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<v Speaker 3>Which continues to this day.

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<v Speaker 4>So Hesbeula kind of did more or less the same thing, really,

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<v Speaker 4>but in the Lebanese context, and this did not really

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<v Speaker 4>stop or most recent assassination was twenty twenty one against

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<v Speaker 4>the Lacom and Slim in early days in early twenty

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<v Speaker 4>twenty one.

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<v Speaker 3>Sorry, so this is the eighties.

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<v Speaker 4>By the time the Libinies of war officially ended in

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<v Speaker 4>nineteen ninety, all of the militias were expected or were

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<v Speaker 4>supposed to hand their weapons to the army or be

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<v Speaker 4>absorbed into the Libine's army. There was an exception that

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<v Speaker 4>was imposed by halves Lessad, Serian dictator at the time

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<v Speaker 4>Basha's father, of course, that the exception would be to

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<v Speaker 4>Hasbela because of Hesballa's role and resisting. Is again the

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<v Speaker 4>quick background to that is that Hesbella and Ammal were

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<v Speaker 4>actually at war. They called it the harbel Ekue the

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<v Speaker 4>War of brothers in the late eighties.

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<v Speaker 3>They later called it that.

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<v Speaker 4>At the time, they did not call it that, and

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<v Speaker 4>The long story shoot again is that Ammal was backed

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<v Speaker 4>by the Syrians and Hesbella was backed by the Iranians.

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<v Speaker 3>They fought each other, they killed each other.

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<v Speaker 4>Hesbala I that battle or battle, and part of that

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<v Speaker 4>compromises that Hesbella would take care of weapons stuff, military stuff,

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<v Speaker 4>resistant stuff, and Amal would get into government. Hence why

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<v Speaker 4>and Nebhibberia became the leader of Amal became a Speaker

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<v Speaker 4>of parliament in nineteen ninety three, three years after the

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<v Speaker 4>end of the civil war and the Toifik came in

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<v Speaker 4>which officially ended it, and remains speaker of Parliament basically

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<v Speaker 4>my entire life to this day.

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<v Speaker 3>That was the nineties, so the nineties has Bla grew.

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<v Speaker 4>By then, the communists, secular nationalist pro Palestinians, including Palestinian

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<v Speaker 4>militias and armed groups, had been, if not entirely crushed

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<v Speaker 4>by the various invasions, first the Syrion one Houfves Lesserds

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<v Speaker 4>and then the Israeli one, who were both invading Lebanon

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<v Speaker 4>with the stated intention of crushing the Palestinian resistance against

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<v Speaker 4>is Raeli occupation, including Hufs Lessered, which people don't like

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<v Speaker 4>to think about too much, and then yeah, so they

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<v Speaker 4>were kind of weakened by the nineties and Hesbala was

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<v Speaker 4>basically the only game in town.

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<v Speaker 1>That brings us to the end of this episode. Preview

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<v Speaker 1>To listen to the full thing and help support our

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<v Speaker 1>work researching and promoting people's history, join us on Patreon

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<v Speaker 1>at patreon dot com slash working class history link in

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<v Speaker 1>the show notes.