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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 6: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 6: program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime
Speaker 6: History and the authors that have written about them. Not
Speaker 6: since the Green River Killer had the Pacific Northwest been
Speaker 6: terrorized by so Savage. A serial killer by day, Robert
Speaker 6: Lee Yates Junior, forty eight was a respected father of five,
Speaker 6: a skilled helicopter pilot who served in Desert Storm and
Speaker 6: a National Guard, and a man no one suspected of
Speaker 6: a deadly hidden life. By night, he prowled the streets
Speaker 6: where prostitutes gathered, gaining their trust before betraying them with
Speaker 6: a bullet to the head. On August twenty sixth, nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety seven, the half naked body of fifteen year old
Speaker 6: sixteen year old street prostitute Jennifer Joseph was found in
Speaker 6: an empty lot in Spokane, Washington. The same day, the
Speaker 6: decomposed body of prostitute Heather Hernandez twenty was discovered in
Speaker 6: a wheat field. Both women had been shot point blank
Speaker 6: in the head. By the day after Christmas, four more
Speaker 6: women were added to the mounting death toll. All were
Speaker 6: found with plastic grocery bags tied over their heads, the
Speaker 6: gruesome signature of a killer who had sexually violated each
Speaker 6: one of them. After snuffing out their lives, Spokane's Elite
Speaker 6: Homicide Task Force intense investigation turned up only one common
Speaker 6: a white corvette driven by a frequent customer of Spokane prostitutes.
Speaker 6: Investigators found a button from Jennifer Joseph's blouse and multiple
Speaker 6: bloodstains in a vehicle recently sold by Rage Yates Junior.
Speaker 6: On October eighteenth, two thousand, Yates pled guilty to thirteen
Speaker 6: murders and was sentenced to four hundred and eight years
Speaker 6: sentenced for two similar murders in Washington Pierce County. Yates
Speaker 6: is now on death row awaiting execution. The book that
Speaker 6: we're profiling tonight is Body Count and it's the Body
Speaker 6: Count re release with my special guest, the incomparable Burl Bear.
Speaker 6: Welcome back to the program, and thank you for this interview.
Speaker 6: Burl Bear.
Speaker 7: Well, it's a pleasure to always a pleasure to be
Speaker 7: with you, Dan and incomparable that's quite a phrase. Thank you.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you for coming on the program, because it's
Speaker 6: always a lot of fun. And I didn't even know
Speaker 6: true crime was fun. I didn't realize that.
Speaker 7: So yeah, well you have to almost approach some of
Speaker 7: them with a slight sense of gallows humor because it's
Speaker 7: so tragic and these stories are so painful that you know,
Speaker 7: it's not exactly compared anything to being an EMT or
Speaker 7: a homicide detective in any way, shape or form, but
Speaker 7: it's it can be very emotionally painful in draining to
Speaker 7: write about these kinds of things, as you well.
Speaker 6: Know, absolutely absolutely, it does take a little bit out
Speaker 6: of you. So you do at least try to regain
Speaker 6: some of that humor that you definitely have put aside
Speaker 6: to to concentrate on something very very serious. And this
Speaker 6: is one of those cases where you know, very unusual,
Speaker 6: very unusual serial killer. We will.
Speaker 7: I want to tell you something it's been a shocking
Speaker 7: new update to this story. It will probably be in
Speaker 7: the the EPO condition we've already gone to press, of course,
Speaker 7: on the paperback. It came out yesterday with the update.
Speaker 7: But there were three women that they originally thought were
Speaker 7: victims of Robert Lias's Spokane serial killer. As it turns out,
Speaker 7: the modus oparandi had a few things were different enough,
Speaker 7: and was testing. It turns out that these three women,
Speaker 7: the first three Yolanda Sap, Kathy Brisboy, and I can't
Speaker 7: figure the third one right now. He forgives me. We're
Speaker 7: murdered by somebody else, someone they called the Riverside killer
Speaker 7: who was never caught. They sent off the DNA from
Speaker 7: underneath the fingernails of the victims and they didn't have
Speaker 7: a match. Well, science has advanced over the past few years.
Speaker 7: Testing is more refined, and just recently they sent off
Speaker 7: these samples again for analysis and BINGO. This time they
Speaker 7: found a match someone who was already in custody on
Speaker 7: federal firearms violations, a woman who used to be a man.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 7: The alleged culprit had left Spokane, gone to Bangkok sexual
Speaker 7: reassignment surgery and returned as a woman, but of course
Speaker 7: the DNA stays the same, and allegedly, this this person
Speaker 7: Donn or Donna, whoever we want to call him or her,
Speaker 7: is more than a likely suspect, and they are in
Speaker 7: custody and will doubtedly be charged with those three homicides.
Speaker 6: Well, fascinating, fascinating update, if to say the least. And
Speaker 6: the thing is with this book too, is this this
Speaker 6: is a re release by basically a popular popular demand
Speaker 6: from Pinnacle and Kensington. And it's interesting now that you
Speaker 6: talk about the ebook and then published on demand, it
Speaker 6: really you know, not that the book business is in
Speaker 6: great shape, but this is one bit of good news
Speaker 6: in terms of they used to discontinue books, didn't they
Speaker 6: just people couldn't find them after a while. Wasn't it
Speaker 6: just the case?
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, that's both a blessing and a curse. If
Speaker 7: a book is out of print for five years, the
Speaker 7: author gets the rights back and can resell it or
Speaker 7: print it themselves. However, if it's an e book, it'll
Speaker 7: never go out of print, which means be optable if
Speaker 7: it gets the right back, even if it's not promoted
Speaker 7: or isn't selling well. But that's just you know, there's
Speaker 7: always a trade off. There's pluses and everything and minuses
Speaker 7: and everything. And the nice thing about the e books,
Speaker 7: I was talking to my editor, to Kensad, and I said,
Speaker 7: you know, on the e book, we can do an
Speaker 7: update on this new information very easily. It's a matter
Speaker 7: of a fire upload. And we do have some bonus
Speaker 7: photographs in the e book edition, new photographs that weren't
Speaker 7: in that aren't in the paperback edition. So there's you know,
Speaker 7: there's always a little added inducements, both of course of
Speaker 7: a few thousand new words at the end with updates
Speaker 7: about what happened to everybody wherever they now, et cetera.
Speaker 7: But it's a and I think I may have mentioned
Speaker 7: we spoke before, but most people probably haven't heard that
Speaker 7: the very first people that Robert Lee h Junior killed,
Speaker 7: as far as we know, we're friends with my family
Speaker 7: and my hometown wall.
Speaker 6: That was what's about That tells me that because one
Speaker 6: of the very interesting things when I spoke to you
Speaker 6: last time, and it was a long time ago, is
Speaker 6: that there was thirteen other authors. That's how important this
Speaker 6: serial killer wasn't, how interesting he was, and again how
Speaker 6: unusual this case was and how savage a killer. That
Speaker 6: was thirteen other authors vying for this book deal and
Speaker 6: you were selected and part of the reason.
Speaker 7: And I wasn't vying for it. I was actually kind
Speaker 7: of avoiding it because it was too close to home.
Speaker 7: Like I say, the first victims were friends of my
Speaker 7: family and my little hometown of Walla Walla, Washington. One
Speaker 7: of the last victims was someone who I also knew
Speaker 7: personally on Off Girl, a friend of mine and Spokane
Speaker 7: dr arms Jet. In fact, I saw her not too
Speaker 7: long before she was murdered, and so I fell a
Speaker 7: little bit close to it. My daughter had gone to
Speaker 7: school with the serial killer's kids. We lived in the
Speaker 7: same town, and I had, you know, like personal connection
Speaker 7: to it. From a journalistic standpoint, you try not to.
Speaker 7: But they said, well, listen, you're obviously the guy to
Speaker 7: do it because you know the environs, you know the people,
Speaker 7: you know the you know. The situation is that the towns,
Speaker 7: the culture even know the people. And so I said, okay,
Speaker 7: I'll do it. But I wound up being a character
Speaker 7: in the book under an assumed name. When you come
Speaker 7: across the fellow Jeff Reynolds The distance reading True Crime
Speaker 7: author and wall of all of it is actually me.
Speaker 7: I changed my name so I wouldn't be in my
Speaker 7: own book.
Speaker 6: Well, it's a lot of fun when you are though
Speaker 6: bro well once you are, but you're you're noted for
Speaker 6: that in your books anyway. From creating a little aliases right,
Speaker 6: A lot.
Speaker 7: Of people, you know, a lot of people don't want
Speaker 7: their their real names used. And sometimes there's no reason
Speaker 7: to use their real name because they're only connected to
Speaker 7: the story tangently or by blood relation, and you donate
Speaker 7: the aggravation of the humiliation, so as a courtesy you
Speaker 7: give them an assumed name. Sometimes I've had people get
Speaker 7: mad at me for not using assumed names in some
Speaker 7: of the cases. But as I say, when you're writing
Speaker 7: a book about say, ched Lundy, you're not going to
Speaker 7: change his name to Ralph Schwartz. You know, just the
Speaker 7: family and the embarrassment. You know, it's too late for that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know. The thing I thought very interesting too
Speaker 6: is when we spoke last time too, is that you
Speaker 6: just touched on it. You had a friend named Arthur
Speaker 6: and you were really good friends with him, and at
Speaker 6: the time that's what you first met Darla, and then
Speaker 6: you found out a little bit by in conversation with Darla,
Speaker 6: which maybe you could tell us about that little conversation
Speaker 6: that you had with her, kind of warning her. Oh,
Speaker 6: it's interesting because that is really a very culling part
Speaker 6: of this story.
Speaker 7: Really well, I got this book, can't Actually for the
Speaker 7: Bloomsday Miracon race, my son was running, and afterwards I
Speaker 7: stopped to see my friend Arthur, who is staying you
Speaker 7: had paranal problems with staying in a motel. And while
Speaker 7: we're sitting there talking, this extremely attractive young lady comes
Speaker 7: in wearing you know, those tank top and cut off
Speaker 7: jean shorts so you could see all the way to Argentina.
Speaker 7: She sits down and she starts bragging that she ripped
Speaker 7: a guy off for five hundred dollars and the wait
Speaker 7: I could tell him, somebody says, well, she was a basically,
Speaker 7: you know, twenty to forty dollars street hooker. It turns out,
Speaker 7: but this fellow, a very nice guy, clean guy, traveling salesman,
Speaker 7: not dangerous operater, five hundred dollars for the weekend to
Speaker 7: stay with him in the finest hotel in town twice
Speaker 7: a month for the next year. Well, that considering that
Speaker 7: would be a heck of a good job. Security wouldn't be,
Speaker 7: you know, as dangerous as being on the street, but
Speaker 7: being shortsighted to first five hundred dollars and ran away.
Speaker 7: And I said to her, Darla, that was not very bright,
Speaker 7: not only from an economic standpoint, but this is how
Speaker 7: women in your line of work get, you know, disfigured
Speaker 7: or killed. Because you may not remember him, but I
Speaker 7: guarantee you he will never ever forget you. And men
Speaker 7: are very vulnerable in those situations. And you do that
Speaker 7: with the wrong guy, and you could wind up dead.
Speaker 7: And the next time I saw anything of her was
Speaker 7: the pictures of the body dump site where Robert Lee
Speaker 7: Yates had killed her and dumped her body. She was
Speaker 7: wearing the Mickey Mouse sweatshirt that my friend Arthur as
Speaker 7: she was his and he had lent it to her
Speaker 7: that day. It was a tragic, tragic story.
Speaker 6: And what you had said too, is that your friend
Speaker 6: Arthur had actually witnessed Yes Yates picking her up for
Speaker 6: a date.
Speaker 7: Yeah. I think she had been on a date with
Speaker 7: him once before. And what isn't particularly enthusiastic. Apparently he's
Speaker 7: gotten a little stranger, violent and scared her, but he
Speaker 7: apologized was offering her significantly more money. Mart He said,
Speaker 7: I don't think this is a good idea, because she said, oh,
Speaker 7: you little thing. She's very headstrong to what she's going
Speaker 7: to do. And he sat on the porch and watched
Speaker 7: her go off and get an engaged car and drive away,
Speaker 7: and that was the last time anyone saw her alive.
Speaker 6: Now, this is a good time to sort of not
Speaker 6: get into great detail, but at least this is why
Speaker 6: I thought this guy's was so unusual. It's very unusual
Speaker 6: for there to be no sort of events whatsoever. But
Speaker 6: tell us about a little bit about the background of
Speaker 6: Robert Lee Yates Junior, because again, this is quite unusual.
Speaker 7: Well, it's just unusual. He did have a rather nice upbringing,
Speaker 7: except for the fact that I think it was his
Speaker 7: grandmother killed his grandfather with an axe or vice versa.
Speaker 7: Wasn't there for that. He was leisedly molested as a
Speaker 7: youngster by one of the neighbors. But he had a
Speaker 7: good upbringing. He had wonderful parents, really wonderful father, rather religious,
Speaker 7: spiritual upbringing, very active in the church. He was greatly admired.
Speaker 7: He was married once previously that didn't go well. His
Speaker 7: wife apparently did an appreciation having a drilled a hole
Speaker 7: in the wall to watch his neighbors have sex. So
Speaker 7: they wounded up getting a divorced. He married his second wife.
Speaker 7: They had I think five kids. He was a desert
Speaker 7: storm veteran, a hard working guy. I mean he worked
Speaker 7: in this aluminum manufacturing plan in spoken to kind of
Speaker 7: worked at someone much younger, and you think, you know,
Speaker 7: you think younger, stronger, able to put up with more
Speaker 7: physical stress and aggravation because he wasn't, you know, a youngster.
Speaker 7: But he worked his rear off at that job, and
Speaker 7: people really admire him. A good family man, like I say,
Speaker 7: a veteran, church going guy, the last human being, anyone
Speaker 7: with respect, even the potential victims of people he knew,
Speaker 7: and he needed virtually every working girl and Spokane there
Speaker 7: was one that actually was like in love with him,
Speaker 7: took him home to meet the folks. Uh, you know,
Speaker 7: I just thought he was no one. Could I think
Speaker 7: you imagine that it was him?
Speaker 6: So so we really did have this alter ego where
Speaker 6: he was this upstanding conformist, non drug taking you know.
Speaker 6: So this this is a double life, most double life. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and you talked too, yeah. Yeah. Now you talk about
Speaker 6: this other the other end of town, you know the
Speaker 6: mean streets here in East Sprague, and describe this area
Speaker 6: because this is where his hunting grounds after your two
Speaker 6: people that you did know were killed. And you say
Speaker 6: the reason why that Yeats was very intelligent, because what
Speaker 6: did he do after the two first victims.
Speaker 7: A real big mistal. I mean, anytime killing people kept
Speaker 7: each he should have a wise move. But he made
Speaker 7: for a murder, a very large tactical mistake. He killed
Speaker 7: two people who were very well known and high profile
Speaker 7: and well liked in the community, and he shot them
Speaker 7: with a three fifty seven magnum Well, there was huge investigation,
Speaker 7: the rewards offered. It was a big thing on all
Speaker 7: the radio stations. In the newspaper in Walla. Walla was
Speaker 7: the number one topic, of course, because it was a
Speaker 7: horrifying thing to have happened. He packed up and left town.
Speaker 7: But when he started in again on his killings, he
Speaker 7: made sure that he picked women of high risk for lifestyles,
Speaker 7: people that wouldn't be immediately missed. And it's very tragic
Speaker 7: that most mini serial killers do exactly that they picked
Speaker 7: on these women that maybe are transit, that maybe can
Speaker 7: disappear for a few months and knowing things to anything
Speaker 7: of it. And sadly, there are some people who think
Speaker 7: these aren't real people. And as long as he's killing them,
Speaker 7: he's not killing people like us, which is very, very sad.
Speaker 7: That's why in the book, I've put a great deal
Speaker 7: of emphasis on the life stories of these women so
Speaker 7: that there weren't just like victim one, victim two, victim three.
Speaker 7: I want the reader to get a sense of who
Speaker 7: these women were. That they were daughters, they were mothers,
Speaker 7: they were sisters, you know, they had and I did
Speaker 7: a lot of research which comes out in the book
Speaker 7: that just knows a lot of myths that people have
Speaker 7: about these people. Them all being drug addicts, are all
Speaker 7: having been abused or imborl or no one falls out
Speaker 7: of the sky and lands on the street like that.
Speaker 7: Some of them had excellent jobs before, but things happened
Speaker 7: help wise, situation wise with them in the situation where
Speaker 7: they had to do what they had to do.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and then then you say a young girl sixteen
Speaker 6: years old, Jennifer Joseph, has a little taste of some
Speaker 6: of some easy money and and actually tells her father
Speaker 6: that she enjoys the lifestyle and yeah, and she.
Speaker 7: Yeah, right, she didn't take drugs. But she discovered that
Speaker 7: she really enjoyed performing sex, and she really enjoyed the money,
Speaker 7: and she liked the camaraderie of the other people she
Speaker 7: was working with, and she got to travel. It's kind
Speaker 7: of like, this is how I spent my summer vacation.
Speaker 7: And she promised she would be you know, back in
Speaker 7: school by fall. And you know, at first the police
Speaker 7: suspected her boyfriend slash pimp and maybe being responsible for
Speaker 7: the murder, but he was seriously mostly just thought and
Speaker 7: very grieved about her murder. And they took him off
Speaker 7: with suspect this. Uh, you know, he made it than
Speaker 7: her business manager, but he was very within that framework,
Speaker 7: very kind and compassionate guy who actually cared about her
Speaker 7: a great deal. But yeah, she was of an anomaly.
Speaker 7: You know, this is what she wanted to do for fun,
Speaker 7: and because of the fact that she was Asian, she
Speaker 7: was able to make more money. Say, they were more
Speaker 7: jealous of her because for some reason, the young Asian
Speaker 7: girls are very very popular.
Speaker 6: Sure, now, tell us about the situation in Spokane. We
Speaker 6: talked a little bit about Eastbrague. So tell us a
Speaker 6: little bit more about where this is in terms of
Speaker 6: geographically in the city, and then also tell us about
Speaker 6: when do police first link that there must be a
Speaker 6: serial killer or link these murders and say they officially
Speaker 6: that there's a serial killer, And when does this task
Speaker 6: force get under way and who does it comprise.
Speaker 7: Well, when Jennifer Joseph was found, there was another young
Speaker 7: lady found the exact same day or the exact same weekend,
Speaker 7: the sirn Anders I believe her name was. It started
Speaker 7: to become pretty obvious there was something going on, and
Speaker 7: they started finding the bodies would be displayed, dumped, you
Speaker 7: know where people can find them. Yeah, you know a
Speaker 7: lot of killers do that. They'd like to show off,
Speaker 7: and there was no exception. Now, the problem that police
Speaker 7: departments face when you have a serial killer isn't just
Speaker 7: catching him. It's having the manpower, the resources, and the money.
Speaker 7: It is very expensive to hunt for a serial killer.
Speaker 7: And here you've got Spokane, Washington, which is not a
Speaker 7: huge city biding special the imagination without a huge pleasure
Speaker 7: for this sort of thing. They put together a task
Speaker 7: force comprised of the city, the county, and the Washington
Speaker 7: State Patrol. And of course there politics, you know, there's
Speaker 7: anytime you've got different agencies working together, and who's picking
Speaker 7: up a part of the budget, who reports to whom,
Speaker 7: that sort of thing. But these guys were very dedicated
Speaker 7: and they did something that was so smart, right, And
Speaker 7: people could say, maybe there's a lot of things wrong,
Speaker 7: but they decided was incredibly smart. They realized that the
Speaker 7: best way to have to catch these guys they would
Speaker 7: need the help and the cooperation of the prostitutes and
Speaker 7: drug dealers on the street. Well, as you can imagine, prostitutes,
Speaker 7: drug dealers about the last people who want to talk
Speaker 7: to a policeman, right, So they had to go out
Speaker 7: and make contact with these people and say, listen, we
Speaker 7: don't care what you're selling, we don't care what you're doing.
Speaker 7: None of that matter is compared to murder, and we're
Speaker 7: not using this as an excuse to get information about
Speaker 7: the debustulator. What we're asking for is for you to
Speaker 7: help us catch this guy before more of you were murdered.
Speaker 7: And they were able to establish bonds of trust with
Speaker 7: this subculture. There was definitely a league one criminals, but
Speaker 7: the people knew they weren't going to get popped. They
Speaker 7: weren't going to get busted, they weren't going to get
Speaker 7: you know, taken for a ride. They were just going
Speaker 7: to help catch this guy. And he was also you know.
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Speaker 7: On the other side of the state, in Pierce County,
Speaker 7: they did not pursue this line of reasoning. They didn't
Speaker 7: occur to him. But in Spokane they did a marvelous shop.
Speaker 7: One of the great victories I must say for Spokane
Speaker 7: is that all of the shelters for homeless women women
Speaker 7: on the street required that they be drug and drink free,
Speaker 7: that they be cleaned and sober in order to see
Speaker 7: in these shelters. Well, these women as he's picking his victims,
Speaker 7: aren't pleaded in the United sober. In fact, most of
Speaker 7: them ran in the same little quack crew. So the
Speaker 7: kind of the health and welfare people were saying, we
Speaker 7: need to get a shelter for these women to where
Speaker 7: they can stay and be safe. It doesn't require them
Speaker 7: to be green and sober, and they were able to
Speaker 7: get that funded, able to get it open oronically the
Speaker 7: day that he was captured, someone said, oh good, now
Speaker 7: we can close that shelter. But the Voluntives for America
Speaker 7: stepped in and have kept it open and kept serving
Speaker 7: that population. But Spokane wisely termed the high women of
Speaker 7: a high risk lifestyle. They didn't want to use the terms,
Speaker 7: you know, prostitute or called grower poker or drug addict
Speaker 7: or whatever, because he felt that it was pejorative and
Speaker 7: didn't increase the sympathy and compassion. It was required for
Speaker 7: the community to pull together and try to catch this guy.
Speaker 7: So they simply refer to them as women of a
Speaker 7: high risk lifestyle.
Speaker 6: Now, how many years are we talking roughly that to
Speaker 6: span this reign of care that Robert Lee J. Yates
Speaker 6: Junior inflicted on the Spokane in the Seattle area. How
Speaker 6: many years are we talking about.
Speaker 7: We're talking about too many, way too many. I mean
Speaker 7: it went on now, as it is brought out in
Speaker 7: the book, there was tragically a simple mistake made. They
Speaker 7: knew they were They've been told to look for the
Speaker 7: guy in a white Corvette. When a cop stopped, he
Speaker 7: Ates gave him the ticket and accidentally wrote down with
Speaker 7: the car was a core Bear instead of a Corvette. Now,
Speaker 7: because of that slight little error that went unnoticed, and
Speaker 7: I'm sure that police and just you know it kicks
Speaker 7: himself constantly thinking, well, see, we could have caught the
Speaker 7: guy years earlier, because that's actually how they got him
Speaker 7: was by that the thing with the corvette, but that
Speaker 7: delayed things supplied. I mean, surely how extreme it got.
Speaker 7: They found some tire tracks they were identical at the
Speaker 7: murders in Spokane and the murders in Pierce County. So
Speaker 7: the aha, now we've got something right. They analyzed the
Speaker 7: tire tracks and discovered the reason they matched is because
Speaker 7: the law enforcement departments in both areas used the same
Speaker 7: brand of tires. It was the police vehicles tires that
Speaker 7: they were, you know, getting the tracks of it, not
Speaker 7: the perpetrator. It even got to the point where the
Speaker 7: Spokane Homicide Task Force chant them in a meeting and
Speaker 7: looked at each other and said, what if it's one
Speaker 7: of us, It could be one of us. That is
Speaker 7: true because there have been situations like that in the
Speaker 7: past where they the killer turned out to be a
Speaker 7: law enforcement or the bomber turned out to be a
Speaker 7: film from the fire department.
Speaker 6: You know, yeah that this sounds like something well, obviously
Speaker 6: these are the kinds of stories that I see on
Speaker 6: law in order, you know, about a year later twisted around.
Speaker 6: You know, so well, this one's on of criminal minds
Speaker 6: as well, so because we but anyway, you know the
Speaker 6: other thing that was interesting and that that was one
Speaker 6: of the more fascinating aspects of the cops looking at
Speaker 6: each other and talk about spooks. There was also some
Speaker 6: some other aspects are very very h Hollywood esque. There's
Speaker 6: a talk radio show guy that's a real past the
Speaker 6: spreading misinformation, hassling the class for us. And then there's
Speaker 6: a you know, uh, a dubious author there writes a book,
Speaker 6: so tell us about well, you know, I wasn't helping
Speaker 6: you with this either.
Speaker 7: Oh no, no, no. The radio host and the the
Speaker 7: other rocker the same person, and that's the Mark Furman,
Speaker 7: famous for the uh convicted fell on himself and the O. J.
Speaker 7: Simpson case for perjury, is not highly admired by the
Speaker 7: Spokane Homicide test Force at all. And he was doing
Speaker 7: a radio show and he was highly critical of the
Speaker 7: homicide task was continually and would harp on them, and
Speaker 7: the task force was very unhappy with him. They thought
Speaker 7: that he was causing more emotional pain to the victor's families,
Speaker 7: stressing things that weren't important. And essentially, from what I
Speaker 7: can gather that the purpose of his book, Murder and
Speaker 7: Spokane originally was to mock the Spokane Homicide Taskers for
Speaker 7: not having solved the case yet, just as the book
Speaker 7: was going to press, who want to understand, they solve
Speaker 7: the case and rested Robert the Yates and he came
Speaker 7: to them saying, oh, gee, please, will you, you know,
Speaker 7: give me access to all your stuff and tell me
Speaker 7: how you did it? And they basically told him an
Speaker 7: interesting trick he could do in a had and upper
Speaker 7: rope that defies all lots of nature. And that's when
Speaker 7: I showed up. So they weren't exactly favorably predisposed to
Speaker 7: True Crime Office when I walked in the door, but
Speaker 7: we had some very long chats and to ascertain what
Speaker 7: my approach was, what I wanted to do, and they
Speaker 7: wound up being incredibly cooperative and exemplary sharing everything with
Speaker 7: me that could be shared. There were some things that
Speaker 7: were sealed by the court that there was no way
Speaker 7: to get, but as far as the investigation, every detail
Speaker 7: of the investigations made available to me, and of course
Speaker 7: I went out and I interviewed some of the many
Speaker 7: of the people myself, thanks to Arthur, was able to
Speaker 7: connect me up to a lot of the people that
Speaker 7: most some of them have got the hell out of town,
Speaker 7: you know, and you've got frug Friedman somewhere else to
Speaker 7: just get off the street and get out of harm's way.
Speaker 7: That everyone was very helpful, very cooperative. Kel Walker who
Speaker 7: was uh on the task force there and I head
Speaker 7: the guy was just marvelous. He later ran for sheriff
Speaker 7: to get the positioned, but really everyone was just extremely cooperati.
Speaker 7: The only delay we had was on photographs because uh,
Speaker 7: the Yates cut a deal with the prosecutors that he
Speaker 7: would tell them where this one body was buried that
Speaker 7: they couldn't find because they would take the death penalty
Speaker 7: off the table, which they agreed to. And so he
Speaker 7: did and turned out of the body was buried in
Speaker 7: his backyard, just to feel close to him. But the
Speaker 7: Peerters County prosecutor backed out of the deal and put
Speaker 7: him on trial for uh two murders in Pierce County
Speaker 7: and u uh and the uh they say the he
Speaker 7: got the death.
Speaker 6: Penalty, what grounds did he renee go on? Though?
Speaker 7: UH decided he didn't be this, didn't want to go
Speaker 7: along with the deal, changed his mind. So was was
Speaker 7: pretty furious about that, as you say, well imagined. So
Speaker 7: it was a very very difficult situation. Uh okay, well
Speaker 7: this quick sick. I don't want to ask me a question.
Speaker 7: I'm live on the radios.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Now, let's let's tell our audience because you you
Speaker 6: described it very interestingly too. It's like Jennifer Jennifer Joseph
Speaker 6: came from back from the grave to get Robert Robert
Speaker 6: Lee Yates Jr. Really uh and tell us how there
Speaker 6: was a corvette and then there's the Bible.
Speaker 7: You know. There was one of the fellows on the
Speaker 7: homicide cast force whose name is just my mind right now,
Speaker 7: I don't have the book in front of me, but
Speaker 7: he really had almost lost faith that they would ever
Speaker 7: really get a connection even if they found that corvette,
Speaker 7: of the guys that they're going to find a direct
Speaker 7: link up of evidence years later because he has sold
Speaker 7: the car to somebody else, right, so who knows what
Speaker 7: condition is in. Well, when they finally get that lovely
Speaker 7: white corvette, underneath the seat still was the button that
Speaker 7: was missing from Jennifer Joseph blouse.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Incredible.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean that's almost like divine intervention where like
Speaker 7: someone was like Jennifer, makings like this is I need
Speaker 7: to make sure to get to get this guy, and
Speaker 7: they did. And when he got it, four had sentence
Speaker 7: to four hundred and some years in prison. You know,
Speaker 7: he read off his litany if I want to apologize
Speaker 7: to the family of sell and so, and of course
Speaker 7: it sends a very hollow same thing in Pierce County.
Speaker 7: It's a little late to apologize. And then of course
Speaker 7: he found Jesus in prison when no one knew that
Speaker 7: Jesus has even been arrested. But I guess he had,
Speaker 7: you know, so you know, it's not unusual for people
Speaker 7: on death road to get a religion. The reason he
Speaker 7: hasn't been executed isn't just because they're like trying to
Speaker 7: find a you know, let's face in the electric chair
Speaker 7: or whatever. But the reason is that I believe it
Speaker 7: on the appeal because he was sentenced to four hundred
Speaker 7: and some years in prison. He has to serve those
Speaker 7: four hundred years first, and then he can be executed
Speaker 7: on the other case because one case took priority because
Speaker 7: it was done first. So that's the only thing that's
Speaker 7: keeping him alive is he has to serve those four
Speaker 7: hundred years in prison before he can get the death penalty.
Speaker 6: Now, what kind of representation. He was, you know, like
Speaker 6: this former desert storm guy and had a decent job.
Speaker 6: What kind of representation did he have at trial? And
Speaker 6: what was their sort of foot obviously didn't work. What
Speaker 6: was their attempt at what kind.
Speaker 7: Of des did it happen? You've got to remember that
Speaker 7: he did not plead not guilty. He pled guilty. He
Speaker 7: confessed to all of them on the condition that if
Speaker 7: if he showed him where that Ye Murphy's body was buried,
Speaker 7: if they wouldn't execute him. And so anything that happened
Speaker 7: that those hearings where he kept that deal was sealed.
Speaker 7: I mean, there wasn't any arguments about anything except do
Speaker 7: we have this deal with the prosecutor where he gets
Speaker 7: life in prison? Uh, you know, for for cooperation. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and so there there wasn't a defense. Okay, there what
Speaker 7: do you call it mitigation? In others? Any mitigating circumstances
Speaker 7: where we should show this guy mercy and compassion. Uh
Speaker 7: you know, I mean his father got up and talked
Speaker 7: about him and you know, and stuff like that. But
Speaker 7: I mean the crimes were so heinous and uh, it's
Speaker 7: kind of like if you took then I'm sure a
Speaker 7: lot of people listen to your show. I read your
Speaker 7: excellent book The Trophy Killed the show We dance murders
Speaker 7: and know how shocking that one murder is. Well, all
Speaker 7: that stuff that's your guy did. This guy did about
Speaker 7: twenty times at least.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we're talking about the necrophilia. So that's again,
Speaker 6: it's it seems an odd characteristic that these serial killers share.
Speaker 7: But yeah, it is a very peculiar one. The thing
Speaker 7: about being able to enjoy copulating with the people who
Speaker 7: were deceased, Yeah, I guess it says that probably has
Speaker 7: to do with control. You know, there's doesn't matter how
Speaker 7: much they objected this, and they can do about it
Speaker 7: because they're dead. I don't understand it myself. Rachel felt
Speaker 7: the probably explain a bitter than I could.
Speaker 6: I think it's just the biggest taboo. I think that's
Speaker 6: what I mean. It's I think if if people were
Speaker 6: to look for I think there are some people that
Speaker 6: like doing that, whether it's Halloween or just walking down
Speaker 6: with as many piercings as they have. They want to
Speaker 6: get they want to get a reaction from you. Well,
Speaker 6: these people really want to get a reaction from somebody,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well, the couse. It's simultaneously they don't want to
Speaker 7: be caught and simultaneously they're bragging about what they do.
Speaker 7: By the way they way they don't hide the bodies,
Speaker 7: they display them when you know, things like that almost
Speaker 7: to taunt the police. You know, there's also what's called,
Speaker 7: you know, criminal pride, where they start being so proud
Speaker 7: of getting away with this stuff that they you know,
Speaker 7: get stranger and sloppier as as things go on. You know,
Speaker 7: they may be very meticulous on the first few and
Speaker 7: didn't get not quite as meticulous later on, although he
Speaker 7: Robert Legate certainly learned his lesson not to shoot someone
Speaker 7: with the three fifty seven in the close range when
Speaker 7: their heads is lap. And also he would ask soon
Speaker 7: as he'd shoot them, he put a paper towel over
Speaker 7: the wound and then a plastic bag, uh, you know
Speaker 7: if he didn't want them, you know, place getting messy.
Speaker 7: You know, they really searched to find the brand of
Speaker 7: the paper towel and where he was buying it, and
Speaker 7: it's one of the few things that were never able
Speaker 7: to find out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's interesting, but they were able to.
Speaker 7: Get fingerprints off of plastic bags, off of like hefty
Speaker 7: bags and you are a plastic bag, which is unexpected
Speaker 7: and very unusual.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that was a pretty innovative technique to be
Speaker 6: able to do that, because they weren't always able to
Speaker 6: do get prints usable prints off surfaces like that.
Speaker 7: So yeah, these science is h is so incredible now
Speaker 7: and said even the last two years what transpired in
Speaker 7: terms of But the only problem with that is is
Speaker 7: BENI Jamaicad Texas tell me is that jurors expect things
Speaker 7: to be like CSI Miami. They you know, uh, when
Speaker 7: that's not very realistic. You don't always have this, you know,
Speaker 7: incredibly accurate and matching DNA pear strands. You know, blah
Speaker 7: blah blah. It's not it's not as easy. You don't
Speaker 7: assault the case in forty two minutes of commercials either.
Speaker 6: Was there any offering of explanation whatsoever. I know that
Speaker 6: we had this killer here, Colonel Russell. Where he was
Speaker 6: this guy piloting the prime Minister of the most powerful
Speaker 6: men in the country, and his status in the military
Speaker 6: was super high profile and super trusted Air Force pilot,
Speaker 6: and yet he committed these murders and his action and
Speaker 6: behavior was very much like VTK was there any discussion
Speaker 6: about how could someone of such good background, family, life, career,
Speaker 6: had everything going for him and have this other alter ego,
Speaker 6: or was there any explanation anyone.
Speaker 7: To say it's usually not that deep. Brent Turvi always says,
Speaker 7: they tried it, they liked it, they did it again.
Speaker 7: I mean a lot of people have all sorts of fantasies,
Speaker 7: but they're fine as long as these state fantasies. Once
Speaker 7: someone who fantasizes about killing people actually crosses the line,
Speaker 7: the line's been crossed, you know. I mean, that's after
Speaker 7: that point, if you've already murdered people, there's really no
Speaker 7: valid reason to, you know, stop doing it. And it's
Speaker 7: always pretty much a live scrift issue. They do the
Speaker 7: same play over and over again. They just cast different
Speaker 7: people in the role of the victim. That's usually the
Speaker 7: same play over and over and over again.
Speaker 6: Was there was there anything that he did early on?
Speaker 6: I know that he changes his mo basically by dealing
Speaker 6: with different victims. He was quickly learned that. But I mean,
Speaker 6: in terms of you said, sometimes they get a little
Speaker 6: bit sloppier at the end. Was there something he did
Speaker 6: that he didn't do at the beginning or what was
Speaker 6: really his uh his downfall.
Speaker 7: Well, they started zeroing in on people that were likely
Speaker 7: suspects that have been been well known, who have dated
Speaker 7: most of the work and girls in Spokane. Then they
Speaker 7: went to the mall and asked for DNA samples and
Speaker 7: everyone was very cooperative except refused, which of course he
Speaker 7: could uh legally, So then they said, well, beings, he's
Speaker 7: making such a big issue of refusing. Uh. They waited
Speaker 7: until he was like, you know, uh, you know Denny's restaurant,
Speaker 7: having some you know, some to eat or drink, and
Speaker 7: then they go over and they take the glass off
Speaker 7: the table to get the fingerprints or you know, one
Speaker 7: thing or another. Uh, you can't have to be kind
Speaker 7: of tricky sometimes. And then he went to his wife
Speaker 7: and uh where she was totally shocked, I mean, even
Speaker 7: having some trouble. She thought maybe he had a gambling problem,
Speaker 7: but it was a lot worse than she imagined. And
Speaker 7: she stayed very actually very she's so married to him.
Speaker 7: She stayed very close to the homicide task for some
Speaker 7: Christmas cars and everything. And of course he ates a
Speaker 7: dozen granted interviews. He did get a call from I
Speaker 7: think the woman from kr E MTV channel too, and
Speaker 7: Spokane wanted an in depth interview, and he said, have
Speaker 7: n't find people sick of me by now? Anyway? What
Speaker 7: else can I say that, you know, would make any difference?
Speaker 7: And he said that he was in such terrible denial
Speaker 7: of the effect of his actions. It's like, you know,
Speaker 7: you do this scene of disassociating, you know, just go numb.
Speaker 7: And then he said, of course wouldn't hit him how
Speaker 7: horrible he was. You know. Then that's when he had
Speaker 7: no place to turn except to the Lord. I don't
Speaker 7: know how excited the Lord was she him, but yeah,
Speaker 7: it's a I mean, look at it feels about his kids.
Speaker 7: It's wonderful kids, darling daughters who love their daddy, you know,
Speaker 7: the daughter's of course daddy. You know. Well, I can't
Speaker 7: understand how you could douce just horrible things. And I
Speaker 7: love you so much, you know that's so tragic. I mean,
Speaker 7: it's tragic from every angle, every angle.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, well, you know the thing is you've your
Speaker 6: your books are always multi faceted. You always have time
Speaker 6: to delve into other areas that you are willing to discuss.
Speaker 6: And and what I thought was very again Uh, I'm
Speaker 6: you know, very very Uh you should be comm complimented
Speaker 6: about it, or uh, is that you put a human
Speaker 6: face on these victims and you talk about these people
Speaker 6: because again, the the reaction of people is the reason
Speaker 6: why these people are victims in the first place, is
Speaker 6: because people don't regard them as some of the other victims.
Speaker 6: The innocently talking about the innocent people. And it's got
Speaker 6: to the point where Spokane is not the only place.
Speaker 6: We talked many times before about Vancouver's situation where there
Speaker 6: was big denial that there was even a serial killer
Speaker 6: on the loose, and meanwhile you got Robert Picton or
Speaker 6: the Green River killer. A lot of these serial killers,
Speaker 6: a vast majority of these serial killers have figured this out,
Speaker 6: that these people are the people that they target. And
Speaker 6: yet you're incouver.
Speaker 7: In Vancouver, you had a sembi a unique situation where
Speaker 7: there was but three reasons why they didn't investigate the case.
Speaker 7: Or one of them was they couldn't afford it. The
Speaker 7: other ones they didn't know how and it was just
Speaker 7: too much to worry about. Disn't really why, you know.
Speaker 7: And they knew, I mean, they knew that someone was
Speaker 7: bumping these people off the women were saying, our friends
Speaker 7: are being murdered and they're going, well, I don't know,
Speaker 7: we don't to talk about it. In fact, that there
Speaker 7: was some you know, more than one person for a
Speaker 7: while bumping people off in the tops. She used to say, Oh,
Speaker 7: this is one of the so and sos of victims
Speaker 7: that they never really went after so and so. Very
Speaker 7: very upsetting situation, because I mentioned before, had an investigation
Speaker 7: of this kind is very expensive and time consuming. It
Speaker 7: calls all lot of resources. In Spokane situations, I believe
Speaker 7: the federal government, maybe the Department of Justice or something,
Speaker 7: did give them like a grand or sings all over
Speaker 7: twelve million dollars, because that's how much money they'd you know,
Speaker 7: put into.
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Speaker 4: I believe we're privited by loss he Terman convisioned eighteen less.
Speaker 7: Now this investigation over all those years, Yeah, an easy thing. No.
Speaker 6: And the thing is, by the time they have enough
Speaker 6: murders that a task force has to be set up,
Speaker 6: and then multiple police agencies are usually not just the
Speaker 6: you know, the city police, that the province comes into
Speaker 6: some capacity, like you talked about Washington State Police got involved.
Speaker 6: I believe the task force. So what you do have
Speaker 6: is that that's where you start getting a lot of resources,
Speaker 6: travel getting everybody up to speed, and dedicating a bunch
Speaker 6: of officers full time around the clock to be able
Speaker 6: to do these things, especially when you get mounting bad
Speaker 6: publicity and they get.
Speaker 7: To figure with all the costs of that homicide investigation
Speaker 7: task force and they're not getting results this year, the
Speaker 7: next year, and there's more bodies being found, and they go, well,
Speaker 7: what's the use of this this homicide team? They're not
Speaker 7: catching this guy and want more money and bigger budget
Speaker 7: and more staff. You know, what are you gonna do
Speaker 7: raise our taxes to catch a killer? And so it
Speaker 7: was very difficult. Plus so these guys, these homicide detections
Speaker 7: are so dedicated. I mean they're taking this, you know,
Speaker 7: they're living this, you know, every day at work, and
Speaker 7: I'm sure they don't can't turn it off when they
Speaker 7: go home. And I and killers don't keep a nine
Speaker 7: to five schedule. You know, they're liable to be called
Speaker 7: out and find a body at you know, any any
Speaker 7: other there. And I've talked a lot of homicide detextas
Speaker 7: who finally they get to a point where they go,
Speaker 7: I just don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, if it's just repeating itself, I mean, it
Speaker 6: would be enough to do something like this fifteen murders
Speaker 6: a span of decades and then you're gonna do it again.
Speaker 6: Who has the energy for that?
Speaker 8: Is this?
Speaker 7: It's uh? The only the only one I know is
Speaker 7: Robert Herebury in Tacoma, who could retire if you wanted to.
Speaker 7: But he doesn't want to. He enjoys the work. He's
Speaker 7: very good at it, doesn't seek a lot of glories.
Speaker 7: One of the top homicide of Texas in America. He
Speaker 7: was lead detective in the book I Didn't Hit, Shot
Speaker 7: and h He's still working. One of the three generations
Speaker 7: to have worked for Tacoma Police Department.
Speaker 6: Well, now, did you you say that he didn't really
Speaker 6: grant any interviews except on the one news agency. What
Speaker 6: was his response to your request? And I'm sure you try.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, no, it wouldn't talk to anybody about anything.
Speaker 7: I mean, it was still there was still in the
Speaker 7: process of what the hell they were going to do
Speaker 7: about Pierce County pulling out of their agreement. It was
Speaker 7: still quite a chaotic mess. And uh, at the time
Speaker 7: that that I was doing this book and they did
Speaker 7: a whole the book would have come out the original edition.
Speaker 7: Of course this is a new, updated edition, but the
Speaker 7: original edition would have come out sooner if I had
Speaker 7: the photographs because there was going to be a trial
Speaker 7: imp Purest County. The photographs were being shipped there for use,
Speaker 7: and so I kind of had to wait until they
Speaker 7: were willing to to share them with me. They wouldn't
Speaker 7: share actual body photos, but more like geographical you know,
Speaker 7: body dump sites, investigative stuff. So the pictures of the
Speaker 7: pictures are not gruesome. In body Counties they are, and
Speaker 7: so of my other books. I mean, I don't pride
Speaker 7: myself on the gruesome photos, and I don't I don't
Speaker 7: select them. I just send, you know, the photos that
Speaker 7: are available to the publisher, and they have someone got
Speaker 7: standards and practices or whatever, select the photos they feel
Speaker 7: are most appropriate.
Speaker 6: How how much would this case affect you overall? You've
Speaker 6: written other true crimes? How many true crime books have
Speaker 6: you written? And how particularly affected were you by writing
Speaker 6: this book with knowing a couple, two or three of
Speaker 6: the victims really and being so involved and connected with this.
Speaker 7: Story that was a very very strange thing. The fact
Speaker 7: that it was close to home, the fact that I
Speaker 7: lived in the same town, I knew some of the victims,
Speaker 7: That the area where he was, this East Tray area,
Speaker 7: happened to be the area where my friend Arthur family lived.
Speaker 7: There were two homes there that belonged to them, and
Speaker 7: you know, I could see the exact areas they were
Speaker 7: talking about, the corners, and Arthur and his family would
Speaker 7: take me on and introduced me to the different people.
Speaker 7: Fact is that there's portions of the book where I
Speaker 7: talk about Darla pulling some stuff in Arthur's father's house.
Speaker 7: You know, there were showed their restrength of character and
Speaker 7: ability to be even being a small critter, she could
Speaker 7: boss around and dominate just about anybody by the force
Speaker 7: of her personality. Of course, you can't boss around someone
Speaker 7: who's going to put a gun to your head. But yeah,
Speaker 7: they that was that was difficult, not as emotionally training
Speaker 7: as a murder in the family, because that was little
Speaker 7: kids being killed in The little kids were the same
Speaker 7: age as my daughter. A one of them had a berth.
Speaker 7: It was only two days different from mine. So the
Speaker 7: bedrooms were exactly the same, the sheets, the toys, the
Speaker 7: pictures on the you know, all that stuff was exactly
Speaker 7: the same. So that was very, very difficult. But this
Speaker 7: is difficult from the standpoint of knowing the families of
Speaker 7: the victims or even knowing the victims, you know, puts
Speaker 7: it on a whole, other, whole other level.
Speaker 6: Is the serial killer the worst serial killer you've had
Speaker 6: to write about?
Speaker 7: Uh? Yeah, yeah, uh definitely. I think well, actually, in
Speaker 7: terms of the killers I've written about, this uh, this
Speaker 7: fellow is certainly murdered more more people I've written about,
Speaker 7: you know, various kinds of psychopaths and disturbed people who
Speaker 7: murder for no reason whatsoever, or murder for fake reasons
Speaker 7: or delusional reasons. But this is the only one where
Speaker 7: I have followed the episodic and I guess it is
Speaker 7: a criticism of the book is that it is episodic.
Speaker 7: Is that the word? But that's how the investigation went.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 7: You know, each each body was a human being, and
Speaker 7: each human being has their own story, their own life,
Speaker 7: and uh, you know, uh, and so each investigation is
Speaker 7: like an episode. It all you know, ties together.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, we talked about the particular situation with these
Speaker 6: sprague and these people, these vulnerable people, and we talked
Speaker 6: about this before. But just for the record, what is
Speaker 6: your position on I mean, there's no real way of
Speaker 6: fixing society, but what's your position on prostitution?
Speaker 7: Decriminalize it, absolutely, decriminalize it, allow them to unionize, the
Speaker 7: safe working conditions other countries do. Most of the working
Speaker 7: women aren't. Aren't favorite decriminalization more than legalization for the
Speaker 7: reason they say, there's no difference between legalization and being illegal.
Speaker 7: It's still controlled by the same people. They're control it
Speaker 7: either way. But if it's decriminalized where it's just you know,
Speaker 7: a business service business, then with where you can have
Speaker 7: health and safety standards and all that sort of thing
Speaker 7: and protect it's extremely difficult for a woman in that
Speaker 7: profession to go to the confince she gets beat up
Speaker 7: or raped or robbed. There's even that I think I
Speaker 7: recount the book case in Canada where these guys murdered
Speaker 7: the woman for fun and the judge said, well, because
Speaker 7: she was a prostitute, it's okay. Well, of course you
Speaker 7: wound up losing his job. But I think they only
Speaker 7: did a couple of years each. Three years. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 7: sounds that's pretty shocking.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: The thing is too, is that there is a side
Speaker 6: of that. The police are frustrated, and there's a certain
Speaker 6: segment of them that are probably prejudiced against these kinds
Speaker 6: of people or think less of these people as well,
Speaker 6: just like the regular population. But they genuinely have sort
Speaker 6: of an animosity because these women, regardless of whether people
Speaker 6: are disappearing off the streets, still put themselves directly in
Speaker 6: harm's way. So there's a frustration I think from police
Speaker 6: that you know, you're trying to save somebody that barely
Speaker 6: wants to save themselves because they're jumping into the costs
Speaker 6: of me.
Speaker 7: Yeah, so it was biggest. They do keep a list
Speaker 7: of what they call like the the bad Trick List.
Speaker 7: So did the different women know that if you see
Speaker 7: you guys got this car, that car, he's not saved.
Speaker 7: He's dangerous. You know, they keep a list. The lady
Speaker 7: who worked for the city, who had had out the
Speaker 7: the condoms and provide counseling and all that sort of stuff,
Speaker 7: kept that list and they'd all share the information who
Speaker 7: to watch out for. Bias was not on that list
Speaker 7: because he was very nice and very polite except the
Speaker 7: ones he killed. The ones he killed couldn't talk about it.
Speaker 7: There was one woman who did manage to survive. She
Speaker 7: didn't know she'd been shot. She thought he hit her
Speaker 7: in the head or something because he was mad at her.
Speaker 7: But actually she didn't know she'd been shot until several
Speaker 7: months She was in a car accident and when they
Speaker 7: took X rays they discovered she had bullets fragments in
Speaker 7: her skull.
Speaker 6: No, what what did they find out from the information
Speaker 6: in terms of because there was no other survivors, there
Speaker 6: was really no witnesses of the kind of savagery that
Speaker 6: this guy was capable of, or at least what did
Speaker 6: she tell police from her experience with Yates?
Speaker 7: Well, I think a nice fifth pattern. She cut a
Speaker 7: deal with him to perform oral sex for X amount
Speaker 7: of reasonable dollars. After seven minutes, she wasn't able to
Speaker 7: become roused, and all of a sudden she had this
Speaker 7: sharp pain in her head. She thought that he'd, out
Speaker 7: of anger and frustration, he hit her. Actually, what he'd
Speaker 7: done is he shot her. But as she said, she
Speaker 7: may have zigged when he thought she was going to zag,
Speaker 7: and the bullet didn't go exactly where he wanted to go,
Speaker 7: and it kind of a ricocheted off part of her skull.
Speaker 7: She didn't lose consciousness and did even realize she'd been
Speaker 7: shot until they were actually shaking over her head several
Speaker 7: months later.
Speaker 6: And it must have been about the time that he
Speaker 6: was using just because, like you said, a three fifty
Speaker 6: seven is going to leave a huge, huge man.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he only used the three fifty seven on the
Speaker 7: first two people he killed, but we know of in
Speaker 7: Walla Walla, the sense of my family, he used the
Speaker 7: three fifty seven, but then he quickly learned to go
Speaker 7: to like a twenty two. You know, it's a low
Speaker 7: caliber weapon.
Speaker 6: So there is Yeah, it's an interesting story with the
Speaker 6: survivor because you know, again amazing nobody even writes fiction
Speaker 6: like that she doesn't even know she.
Speaker 7: Shot till Yeah, she saw this when he was arrested.
Speaker 7: They put his picturel over the TV where she recognized
Speaker 7: him immediately, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah, incredible. Yeah that she must have thanked her lucky
Speaker 6: stars that night for sure.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, she said she thinks it was a divine thing,
Speaker 7: a divine intervention and bolder quotas divine intervention. And the
Speaker 7: fact that she gave good head.
Speaker 6: Yeah that was a quote. Okay, yeah, really dig deep information, bro, Yeah,
Speaker 6: that's incredible. Uh So, So the latest update on Yeates
Speaker 6: is you think that he's just likely not gonna he's
Speaker 6: just die in jail.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think they have to wait till he serves
Speaker 7: four hundred years.
Speaker 6: Uh well yeah, where where is he right now? Where's
Speaker 6: he's he doing?
Speaker 7: Is he's back in the same town where he once
Speaker 7: worked as a prison guard, the town where he killed
Speaker 7: the first two people. He's back in Walla Walla, Washington,
Speaker 7: in Washington State Penitentiary on death row as a model prisoner.
Speaker 7: Of course.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that because I thought that
Speaker 6: was another interesting aspect of this, is that he was
Speaker 6: a prison guard and then he ends up back in
Speaker 6: the same prison he worked in.
Speaker 7: That is, yeah, not twitch, So did I in fact
Speaker 7: in the book because the picture they take the employee
Speaker 7: photos the same place they take the prisoner photos. Yeah,
Speaker 7: you know, and I have his employee photo and I
Speaker 7: have his booking. You know what he called, didn't take
Speaker 7: photo when they send him to the prison, you know,
Speaker 7: taking the same place, same camera, same room, just several
Speaker 7: years apart.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and have you heard anything from inside the prison
Speaker 6: in terms of how yeats is, how he's doing.
Speaker 7: What his interaction with others, you know, being a military guy,
Speaker 7: very disciplined like many of these kind of guys. He
Speaker 7: is absolutely a model prisoner, never a problem, kind, courteous, cooperative,
Speaker 7: no difficulties whatsoever.
Speaker 6: And no threats from other prisoners. No.
Speaker 7: If he'd been probably if he'd been murdering the little kids,
Speaker 7: he'd be dead by now. But no, though, Yeah, maybe
Speaker 7: they have to happen a little bit of a protected
Speaker 7: mode sometimes, But like I said, it's not like he
Speaker 7: was Jeffrey Dalmer. So then when you're killing kids, you
Speaker 7: can almost be assured you're going to get bumped off,
Speaker 7: unless you're in Alaska, at which time they just put
Speaker 7: them in general population. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Really, so Yates is doing okay. His training has served
Speaker 6: him well.
Speaker 7: Question, I say, according to Jim, he's very very religious,
Speaker 7: you know, and he knows that people probably can't forgive
Speaker 7: him for having murdered so many people. But you know
Speaker 7: what else can you do except service time, serve it well,
Speaker 7: and there's not too much to too many ways you
Speaker 7: can make amends to people after you've murdered their daughter
Speaker 7: or you know, sister or whatever.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and we talked about too that there wasn't there
Speaker 6: wasn't anything to the trial. But the fact that that
Speaker 6: the death penalty was on the table really changes any
Speaker 6: kind of trial anyway, doesn't it. That's where you start
Speaker 6: getting leave bargains. You get these incredible deals that people
Speaker 6: willing to cant and it really.
Speaker 7: Makes it interesting because the death penalty is supposedly reserved
Speaker 7: for the worst of the worst, and the Greener of
Speaker 7: a Chiller was probably the worst. It works with your
Speaker 7: forty seven or something like that victims. Yeah, it didn't
Speaker 7: get the death penalty. So when the Green River killer
Speaker 7: doesn't get the death penalty and Robert the Yates doesn't
Speaker 7: get the death penalty, and as opposedly reserved for the
Speaker 7: worst of the worst, then who can get it?
Speaker 6: You know, Yeah, but there's so many wrongfully convicted, maybe
Speaker 6: single murders or double murders. So that again, again why
Speaker 6: I'm against the death penalty is because they make mistakes,
Speaker 6: and they.
Speaker 7: Make a lot off a horrible mistake in Texas where
Speaker 7: the guy was executed for allegedly killing his children in
Speaker 7: the house fire, and it turns out all the experts
Speaker 7: examined and said and vasty was trying to save his
Speaker 7: kids in the house fire, but they already executed him.
Speaker 6: God, yeah, God help you with as you're involved with that.
Speaker 6: That's all I can say, you know, and you know
Speaker 6: not in America. You know, many states are abolishing the
Speaker 6: death penalty or so it's less.
Speaker 7: Of course, then I get tranced. So why you can
Speaker 7: compromise and have it on the books and not use
Speaker 7: it now It was so it's always there as as
Speaker 7: a way of saying that this is such a horrible,
Speaker 7: horrible crime, that this is what perhaps should happen to you.
Speaker 7: But because of compassion and mercy and I whant to
Speaker 7: make a mistake, we're not going to. Uh. The reason
Speaker 7: I mentioned that is sometimes people look at things in
Speaker 7: some of the holy books of the world's religions, like
Speaker 7: still this person to death, that they're an adulterous, you know,
Speaker 7: and things like that, you goll how cruel, But usually
Speaker 7: they don't read the rest of the paragraph. For example,
Speaker 7: in some religions, I think in Islam, for example, an
Speaker 7: adulter as people committing adultery or would be stoned to that. However,
Speaker 7: you must bring four witnesses to the actual physical act
Speaker 7: of adultery in order for that to take place, which
Speaker 7: is virtually impossible. So the message being this is how
Speaker 7: bad it is, so don't you do it? You know,
Speaker 7: it's like the only person you can heavily have any
Speaker 7: influence over it yourself, And if you're going to choose
Speaker 7: somebody else, you better be able to bring poor witnesses
Speaker 7: or saw them do it.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, it cancels that out, doesn't it.
Speaker 7: Yeah. So the thing is the way of communicating how
Speaker 7: with what this favor it is viewed, but making it
Speaker 7: virtually impossible for someone to go after hopefully go after
Speaker 7: somebody else other than themselves, you know.
Speaker 6: Yeah. The only thing is is that a lot of
Speaker 6: states are experiencing fhiscal concerns to say the least, because
Speaker 6: to afford these prisoners all the necessary appeal processes is
Speaker 6: very very taxing, you know, money wise.
Speaker 7: We certainly want to stop having the appeals because that's
Speaker 7: what the reason they have so many appeals is. Because
Speaker 7: it's a matter of life or death. Yeah, and therefore
Speaker 7: there you know, if there's been any errors of judgment
Speaker 7: or errors.
Speaker 3: Of the law.
Speaker 7: You know, I mean, it's a way say, there's no
Speaker 7: such thing as loopholes in the law. It's just the law.
Speaker 7: You would think, yeah, it's just the law. There aren't loopholes,
Speaker 7: it's just the law.
Speaker 6: Only only creative defense lawyercy loopholes.
Speaker 7: Well, now, actually think I think there's people who object
Speaker 7: to the outcome of something not being the way they
Speaker 7: wanted to say, Oh, he found some loophole in the law.
Speaker 7: Now he just found the law. You apply the law
Speaker 7: to the case, hopefully, and if the jury does what
Speaker 7: they're supposed to do, it applies the law the principle
Speaker 7: to the existing evidence or lack thereof, and they're going
Speaker 7: to their charge were coming up with, you know what,
Speaker 7: had they been proven beyond a reasonable doubt? United Stays
Speaker 7: don't know what the wording is out there and if
Speaker 7: the answer is no, then you can't find them building
Speaker 7: if you have any reasonable doubt.
Speaker 6: Well, with some reasonable doubt. Yeah, but we've been seeing
Speaker 6: the you know Casey Anthony case, I mean that was.
Speaker 7: One they charged were all wrong to begin with. There
Speaker 7: was no evidence. That was insane for them to have
Speaker 7: made those charges against her when they actually had no case.
Speaker 7: They had no no evidence. There was nothing but reasonable
Speaker 7: doubt about everything. All you have to do is listen
Speaker 7: to Nancy Grace and everyone had coming up with their
Speaker 7: own theories while the thing was in progress, which I
Speaker 7: can't stand to do. But uh, you know, there was
Speaker 7: no there was no hard evidence they they overcharged or
Speaker 7: overreached or whatever. And which happens quite often, people taking
Speaker 7: a case that they think they can win based on
Speaker 7: god knows what. But if it has to do with
Speaker 7: the jury having to apply the actual law to the
Speaker 7: actual evidence or lack of of, uh, you're going to
Speaker 7: get different outcomes than people's imaginations conceived.
Speaker 6: Well, you do have a lot of cases that. The
Speaker 6: one thing I do notice between Canada and America, the
Speaker 6: difference is that we normally don't take well I don't
Speaker 6: see it. They don't take circumstantial cases to a jury.
Speaker 6: They don't take cases where there's no body, no weapon,
Speaker 6: no body, just the you know sort of a Casey
Speaker 6: Anthony case. I mean, there's a body, but there's a
Speaker 6: lot of you know, there's there wasn't much connection.
Speaker 7: That's the thing. There was no connection, there was no
Speaker 7: no heart evidence. It was all just speculation. And you
Speaker 7: can't convict someone, hopefully on murder, out of public relations
Speaker 7: and speculation. There has to be actual evidence that convinces
Speaker 7: you beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 6: Well, I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot
Speaker 6: of judgments where it was circumstantial though, and they made
Speaker 6: and they made all the connections. That prosecutor made those connections,
Speaker 6: and the jury went along with it. That's very interesting
Speaker 6: to me as a Canadian because I'm just I just
Speaker 6: don't see those things. I do not see that kind
Speaker 6: of I don't see the charges initially in the first
Speaker 6: place like that. So if they are unlikely to get
Speaker 6: a conviction, then they are hesitant to lay charges here.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Well, unfortunately, one of the things here is they say,
Speaker 7: can we get a conviction? Not is that person really guilty,
Speaker 7: but can't we get a conviction? And that can leave
Speaker 7: us some tragic outcomes.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I don't think that's fair. I just
Speaker 6: think you just have this hyper vigilance. The person that's
Speaker 6: going to be a prosecutor their whole life and not
Speaker 6: go and swing to defense is maybe a guy that's
Speaker 6: a little more takes the law a little more seriously.
Speaker 6: That being said, they're only human beings. He's fighting against
Speaker 6: this person that will I think a lot of prosecutors
Speaker 6: believe that defense lawyers have the ability to twist that
Speaker 6: law or or they have an advantage so when the
Speaker 6: chips are down, when it looks bad, when when their
Speaker 6: job is on the line, or the reputation or pressure,
Speaker 6: I think they resort to who they think is guilty.
Speaker 6: But they do break the law.
Speaker 7: We see that a lot with police departments will be
Speaker 7: a tunnel vision on who on who the suspect is,
Speaker 7: and they won't even they don't go after someone, or
Speaker 7: they limit their options because they decide or we think
Speaker 7: this person is a good candidate.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean there are some there are some cases
Speaker 6: where a few officers vouch.
Speaker 7: That no, this is the guy.
Speaker 6: I know this is the guy, and so I think
Speaker 6: sometimes you do get characters that are convinced themselves. I mean,
Speaker 6: obviously some of these and the psychopathic killer is a
Speaker 6: great example of a guy that's very, very convincing of
Speaker 6: a lot of things. You know, Gaysey was let out.
Speaker 6: Gaysey had a ten year sentence. He was out in
Speaker 6: six months, and if circumstances were different, he who knows
Speaker 6: what the body count was. So some of these people
Speaker 6: are fantastic liars. That's obvious.
Speaker 9: So you know, there's right, pardon me, you won't know
Speaker 9: if you add the Gacy's lawyer on, who of course
Speaker 9: went on to be a judge.
Speaker 7: But you know, it's like Christus, even Shohn Wayne Gacy
Speaker 7: is subtly just blurts out, you know, I got all
Speaker 7: these bodies in my house. I'm going to have to
Speaker 7: add on another floor, run out of space to bury people. Yeah,
Speaker 7: what do you say when somebody tells you this, uh,
Speaker 7: the hell of a Christmas?
Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, it was an interesting show. You you you
Speaker 6: had them on too, Sam Amaranti and Danny Roderick with
Speaker 6: their books. Wow, it's just you know, I could read
Speaker 6: you know, I mean, that wasn't the first book I read.
Speaker 6: Killer Clown by Terry Sullivan, and both books just essential
Speaker 6: if you really want to see the mind of the
Speaker 6: what an incredible tale. That's all I can say. It's
Speaker 6: just amazing. So yeah, these guys. It really shows that
Speaker 6: as smart as police can be, as trained as they
Speaker 6: can be, these killers are still a mystery I think anyway.
Speaker 6: I don't think anybody's really cracked these guys at all.
Speaker 6: It can have interviewed the thirty six of the worst
Speaker 6: serial killers to come up with criminal profiling, and that's
Speaker 6: limited in its use really, But I.
Speaker 7: Will tell you one thing. A lot of people think
Speaker 7: that these serial killers and psychopaths are complex. It's exactly
Speaker 7: the officer if they're missing the emotionship. They live in
Speaker 7: a two dimensional world where at the center of the universe,
Speaker 7: and it's I can say, they tried it, they liked it,
Speaker 7: they did it again. They have no empathy, no compassion.
Speaker 7: But the thing is just not all sociopaths and psycopaths
Speaker 7: become criminals and killers, just like the majority of pedophiles.
Speaker 7: Never do anything to a kid's chasing the realm of fantasy.
Speaker 7: As long as it's in fantasy, fine, but when it
Speaker 7: crosses that line, you got a big problem.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, especially these days. With the advent of
Speaker 6: the internet, a lot of people that maybe would have
Speaker 6: had a hard time finding sort of violent S and
Speaker 6: M magazines, And then there was always places I think
Speaker 6: you could get it, or it could order it, or
Speaker 6: it was tolerable.
Speaker 7: You know. The thing about S and M and B
Speaker 7: and D not to be due with bed and breakfast
Speaker 7: is the person who's in control at all times is
Speaker 7: the submissive person. They create the scenario, they write the symphony,
Speaker 7: and the dom male or female, simply follows their script,
Speaker 7: follows their instructions. The people. A lot of research has
Speaker 7: gone into this. The people who enjoy that sort of
Speaker 7: thing are usually people who are decision makers. There's a
Speaker 7: lot of pressure to make decisions, and they like to
Speaker 7: create the illusion that they are not in control. Of
Speaker 7: course they are in control because they create the cinema
Speaker 7: where they're not in control. But it's the cycrification.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but when I was what I'm talking about too, though,
Speaker 6: is the like minded individuals now have the ability to
Speaker 6: fantasize at a different level. And then there are because
Speaker 6: there's different levels of these people righting their objectivity and
Speaker 6: their delusions and fantasies. Delusions not necessarily hallucinations. But definitely
Speaker 6: these people seem invincible once again. Once they've experienced that
Speaker 6: one fantasy of murder, then why not do it again,
Speaker 6: maybe even escalate it, maybe even improve the fantasy a
Speaker 6: little bit, improve the experience.
Speaker 7: A mentally healthy person. Unless there's a crime of passion,
Speaker 7: they snap, doesn't go out cold blood the murdered people.
Speaker 7: And I think that the Internet offers for people who
Speaker 7: have a fantasy life out of murder, but say some
Speaker 7: of these other things. That's a perfectly safe way of
Speaker 7: fantasizing and interacting with like minded people who remind each other.
Speaker 7: We simply keep it in the realm of all play
Speaker 7: and make believe where no one no one really you know,
Speaker 7: it's like you're playing Swordian's sources are playing what we
Speaker 7: used to play, cowboys, and we didn't really go out
Speaker 7: and kill Native Americans. Then they go out and kill
Speaker 7: people with horses.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, no, it's just it's just it's fascinating for
Speaker 6: me to see that these people uh cross into that
Speaker 6: taboo area where everyone else the cannibalism, the necrophilia, the murder,
Speaker 6: of the mutilation, the the reveling in it, the trophy taking,
Speaker 6: the it's that it's.
Speaker 7: It's you know, it's remarkably rare, and yet we are
Speaker 7: fascinated with it, hy know, Doctor Scott Vaughan, he's currently
Speaker 7: working on a new book on why we are so
Speaker 7: fascinated and enthralled with these characters and that I position.
Speaker 7: But it's very similar to what happened with Frankenstein and
Speaker 7: Dracula and all that the cap you know, back when
Speaker 7: those movies are sweatly scared, people eventually want up being
Speaker 7: avent because tell them, meet them. You know. It's it's
Speaker 7: having these shared nightmares that uh, you know, fear from
Speaker 7: a distance because the brain doesn't really differentiate between make
Speaker 7: the lead right in real fright. But there is that
Speaker 7: part of your brain that says, it's only a movie.
Speaker 7: It's only a movie. It's only a movie.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. So this is a re release
Speaker 6: of body Count. This is uh. This this is a
Speaker 6: popular book because this is not the first time it's
Speaker 6: been re released as well, it's.
Speaker 7: Not well, there's been more than one printing because of
Speaker 7: the demand and a lot of UH schools or criminology schools,
Speaker 7: college level courses use the book. Have these students reader,
Speaker 7: this is like a evccuate a textbook because it covers
Speaker 7: a lot about investigation and a lot about psychopathy and
Speaker 7: that type of thing. Uh So it's it's worthwhile. I mean,
Speaker 7: I don't I write these books hoping to say lives.
Speaker 7: You know, if if you can learn something from these
Speaker 7: books to where you can get yourself out of harm's way,
Speaker 7: that you can see what's going on, maybe we can
Speaker 7: find it a treatment of cure for this thing someday,
Speaker 7: or keep more people alive by getting them out of
Speaker 7: those situations. And it's it's not easy to write these
Speaker 7: books emotionally or financially or time wise, but we do
Speaker 7: it because we think we're doing something important.
Speaker 6: Well, it's a fascinating slice of history as well, because
Speaker 6: these things don't happen and a vacuum. It happens over
Speaker 6: a period of years and all these lives these people touch,
Speaker 6: and it really is a very a barrant point in
Speaker 6: society when something like this happens. Everything else is somewhat understandable,
Speaker 6: but something like this is almost noncomprehendible.
Speaker 7: And now one of the criticisms of my books that
Speaker 7: one of the thing that some people don't like is
Speaker 7: I do make a real effort to put it in
Speaker 7: a sociological and it's to our context because you say
Speaker 7: this doesn't happen a vacuum, And I did add there's
Speaker 7: a section added to this new addition of bod Account
Speaker 7: that was taken out of the first edition, but they
Speaker 7: have decided to put it back in.
Speaker 3: And that is the.
Speaker 7: Historical background of how the situation of these women put
Speaker 7: them on the fringe of society where it didn't used
Speaker 7: to be that way prior to the Harrison Active. I
Speaker 7: think in nineteen nineteen there was no link between drugs
Speaker 7: and crime in America and things were much different than
Speaker 7: But so if you can see the context of how
Speaker 7: we got in this situation, how do we have people
Speaker 7: that are such easy prey that can be murdered with people?
Speaker 7: Thank god, it's only pulling. Most people are not real
Speaker 7: people like us. I try to give a sense of perspective.
Speaker 7: Some people don't understand that will love it.
Speaker 3: I know you do.
Speaker 6: And so yeah, for true crime readers, you're one of
Speaker 6: the biggest names in true crime and your style is
Speaker 6: different than other people. Some people it's not the criticize,
Speaker 6: but it's it's vary by the numbers in terms of
Speaker 6: this is what it is and there and the background
Speaker 6: is not cookie cutter, but it's very conforming to other
Speaker 6: books that you've read. And then there comes a trial
Speaker 6: and there you go and there.
Speaker 7: Is a There is a format that true crime books
Speaker 7: usually follow, but one I have that is most iconic classics.
Speaker 7: Here's one called Band Overboard, the Counterfeit Resurrection Phil Champaigne,
Speaker 7: which is currently out of print. It should be back soon.
Speaker 7: And that's totally different. I violated every known rule of
Speaker 7: true crime writing in that. But you try to do
Speaker 7: different things with form and structures. Sometimes they work, sometimes
Speaker 7: they don't.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 7: With Fatal Beauty, I tried to do it almost as
Speaker 7: if it were a documentary, Uh, like a verbal video documentary.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 7: Some people like it. Some people thought it was a
Speaker 7: little soulless. But uh, I still want to get into
Speaker 7: the historical and social perspective of what this means. You know, well,
Speaker 7: what does this have to do with with us, with
Speaker 7: my family, my culture, my America, you know, because I
Speaker 7: do write American cases only. Uh. And what does it
Speaker 7: what can we learn from this? How did we get here?
Speaker 7: What does this mean? It was my mentor Jack Olson,
Speaker 7: the part of the greatest true crime writer whoever lived.
Speaker 7: Told me that any book that doesn't explore why and
Speaker 7: how his pornography and you have to get into what
Speaker 7: does this mean? What can we learn?
Speaker 6: Well? Jack Olson was a fan of yours as well,
Speaker 6: and I'm a huge fan of For me, he is
Speaker 6: the guy that the the guy that could write true
Speaker 6: crime like nobody's business.
Speaker 7: And he's the best ever what you're bounderful, I can
Speaker 7: tell you. When I read his book Salt of the Earth,
Speaker 7: I read the first page and I told him, I said,
Speaker 7: I want to go take my word processor and throw
Speaker 7: it in the Pacific Ocean because I could never I
Speaker 7: could never write a page as good as that. And
Speaker 7: he laughed and he was very very supportive of me.
Speaker 7: And you know he would he would go on these
Speaker 7: big anti true crime diatribes about I would altern to crap.
Speaker 7: And I called him and I said, Jack, I said,
Speaker 7: I just read this big thing you did about how
Speaker 7: true crime now is a bunch of garbage. I said,
Speaker 7: how about say, except maybe for burls and a couple
Speaker 7: of He says Burle. He says, whose name is on
Speaker 7: the cover of your book? Saying world bear rights true crime.
Speaker 7: At his best. There's more people will see that on
Speaker 7: the cover of your book. Then we'll see the article
Speaker 7: I wrote.
Speaker 6: He was when you get an endorsement Jack Wilson. That
Speaker 6: is just very, very, very special. And I like the
Speaker 6: idea of any author really coming forward in the book
Speaker 6: at least to have some voice, because it's almost unnerving
Speaker 6: to me for an author not to especially at these
Speaker 6: profound moments in the book, to not at least somewhat
Speaker 6: have opinion about that. I mean, I know so well.
Speaker 7: The technique I use, I think people have picked up
Speaker 7: on it is I'll have people giving running commentary. They'll
Speaker 7: be commentary by Chef Rogers, a well known newsman, or
Speaker 7: the lead commentary by Travis Webb, who is my investigative
Speaker 7: assistant on some of these books. Or they'll be commentary
Speaker 7: by Jeff Reynolds. They opinionated true crime author. Well, I
Speaker 7: doubt you've ever seen very many books by Jeff Reynolds.
Speaker 7: That's because that's me. So the author caresipt at the
Speaker 7: end where it has you know, the author's end notes
Speaker 7: of the author's commentary at the very end of the book,
Speaker 7: where I express my opinion on everything. But in terms
Speaker 7: of the commentary. I like to find people who can
Speaker 7: like a round table of commentary of you know, different views.
Speaker 7: And in Fatal Beauty, for example, I actually asked a
Speaker 7: variety of other true crime writers their opinion on one
Speaker 7: aspect of the case, and they gave me permission to
Speaker 7: quote them. So you have all these other true crime
Speaker 7: writers weighing in of their opinion, and they did not
Speaker 7: They didn't agree with each other, but that made it
Speaker 7: even more interesting to me.
Speaker 6: Yeah, how many true crime books do you have now
Speaker 6: under your belt? Berlin?
Speaker 7: What's yours? Let's see Man Overboard with the first murder
Speaker 7: in the family, Headshot, body Count, Broken Doll Mom said kill,
Speaker 7: and Fatal Beauty. However, many days in terms of true crime,
Speaker 7: and I've got a couple that I think will be
Speaker 7: coming out of shorter e books that didn't quite make
Speaker 7: it to full length because the case may have been
Speaker 7: a little bit older. For example, in the book Masters
Speaker 7: of True Crime, which is a joy to be and
Speaker 7: that was edited by R. Barry Flower, seventeen true crime
Speaker 7: writers all contributing. I just love that book and so
Speaker 7: proud to be part of it. I was able to
Speaker 7: tell the story You'll have the mail bomb Conspiracy, which
Speaker 7: originally was going to be a book ten years ago
Speaker 7: that ran into a whole other set of problems. We'll
Speaker 7: talk about the show, but I was finally able to
Speaker 7: tell that story. And I've got a few other ones
Speaker 7: that I'd love to tell that would be shorter, It
Speaker 7: wouldn't be book length, but would be fascinating true crime
Speaker 7: stories that you haven't heard of before.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Masters of True Crime is really a great thing,
Speaker 6: and the story that you have in there is fascinating.
Speaker 6: So I'm glad it did make it finally.
Speaker 7: Oh and I got to tell you the United States
Speaker 7: Postal Inspectors were so incredible in their cooperation with me
Speaker 7: on that story. I cannot praise them enough. It was
Speaker 7: just beyond anything I could have hoped for.
Speaker 6: Well, you know what I found interesting, too, is when
Speaker 6: we start doing this the eighth story, when you said
Speaker 6: that the police were kind of wary because they had
Speaker 6: Mark Furman there and so they wanted to know and
Speaker 6: I and I had said to you in their earlier interview, Well,
Speaker 6: all they have to do is look at your body
Speaker 6: of work. All they had to do was read one
Speaker 6: of your books and they would see the perspective. Because
Speaker 6: really what they were looking for is is the tabloidsque
Speaker 6: kind of perspective misinformed, you know, but I'm.
Speaker 7: So worried about they'd already seen that. Actually, they got
Speaker 7: hold of Van Rule and asked her about me and
Speaker 7: Anne and I we just writers workshop together would be island,
Speaker 7: and we've always got along great. And in fact, she
Speaker 7: is my family is in one of books, and she
Speaker 7: is actually and shows up as a character in my
Speaker 7: book Ban Overword because the main character's daughter and her
Speaker 7: daughter were best friends.
Speaker 6: Interesting, and her daughter is a writer too, She's a
Speaker 6: fictional writer.
Speaker 7: Yeah. In the family quest if you know, every one
Speaker 7: of my family is a writer. To Lee Oldberg Goldberg,
Speaker 7: my sister makes you rest in peace. It's just just
Speaker 7: one of those family things, you know, like the Barrymoores.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Interesting, yeah, yeah. And for those people that don't know.
Speaker 6: And we got to put a plug in there for
Speaker 6: this as well, the True Crimes Uncensored on Outlaw Radio
Speaker 6: every Saturday afternoon. Put plug in for that and also
Speaker 6: the adaptation. The live adaptation and film are part of
Speaker 6: me television adaptation of True Crimes on American Horrors with
Speaker 6: Heart Fisher's television station so tell Us about both of
Speaker 6: those things that you have going on on a regular basis.
Speaker 7: Well, the True Crime on Sensored airs a Saturday afternoons
Speaker 7: twud at three o'clock on Outlaw Radio dot TV or
Speaker 7: Outlaw Radio USA dot com, either one, and you can
Speaker 7: always just look it up True Crime on Sensored. We
Speaker 7: have a website, true Crime on sensor dot Com tells
Speaker 7: you who the guests are, and there's a player on
Speaker 7: the right hand side that plays past shows if you like.
Speaker 7: And I do that show with Howard Lapedis, who's the
Speaker 7: show business legend. He's the manager of Doctor Drew Pinski
Speaker 7: and executive producer Celebrity Rehab Will Rehab and all the
Speaker 7: Doctor Druz shows. And he won a Ramzy for Freddie
Speaker 7: Got Fingered, which he produced, Sorry Don Greek Wrisk Picture
Speaker 7: of the Year. He was very proud of that and
Speaker 7: our fact checker Mark Boyer. Now a few years ago,
Speaker 7: my co host was the Great Attorney Don Woldman, and
Speaker 7: repeats of those shows we're running on here Women Talk
Speaker 7: dot com for quite a while, and Hart, being a
Speaker 7: big true crime fan, asked Don and I who would
Speaker 7: but disipate at various times and recording some stuff and
Speaker 7: doing some features. He takes the true crime the true
Speaker 7: Crime round Table that that uh Don and I did
Speaker 7: with Private Eye Fred Wolfson and the great Little call
Speaker 7: Field author of Houses Secrets, and the Don did a
Speaker 7: familous to do with Jerry Sts author of STI, Letters
Speaker 7: and Steel. But they'll probably be on some time in
Speaker 7: the future. We love working with Heart. It's you know,
Speaker 7: we've kind of do it, you know, a little bit
Speaker 7: of a time once in a while. We never quite
Speaker 7: know how it's what format is going to be. But
Speaker 7: we love working with Heart and anytime something shows up
Speaker 7: that he uses us in, we're drilled. Yeah.
Speaker 6: It's a great program too, And I've seen a couple
Speaker 6: Anthony Flacco's program, wrote to Hell, I believe.
Speaker 7: It was was yeah, best when Heart was a co
Speaker 7: host on the show with Don and I and with
Speaker 7: Matt Allen's permission, videotape the actual radio show and to
Speaker 7: put it up on you know as a video cast,
Speaker 7: and also these shows ber Heart was a jest.
Speaker 6: I like it.
Speaker 7: They show our interview with Heart just before they run
Speaker 7: this movie The Garbage Man, which is which is great.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great channel. So you've got yourself
Speaker 6: very very busy and.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, matter of fact, you're going to be doing
Speaker 7: You'll see me on Deadly Sins on Investigation Discovery, I
Speaker 7: think in January February an episode based on Mom Said Kill,
Speaker 7: and then they're also going to do one based on
Speaker 7: Murder in the Family, and then Behind mentioned Walls, also
Speaker 7: on an investigation. Discovery just tapped me to do a
Speaker 7: show based on Fatal Beauty. So you'll see a lot
Speaker 7: of me on a lot of me on TV this year.
Speaker 6: Ah, great, good for you, fantastic Well, Brol, I want
Speaker 6: to thank you very much for coming back on to
Speaker 6: the program and talking about body Count and all the
Speaker 6: new some of the new developments, so we can't wait
Speaker 6: for something new to come out again. You're very very
Speaker 6: prolific in that area, so I know you're cooking up
Speaker 6: two or three things at one time.
Speaker 7: I'm not even surprised, So thank you so much for
Speaker 7: having me on a DAN. I always always enjoy being
Speaker 7: on your show.
Speaker 6: Well, thank you very much. Berlin will be in touch.
Speaker 6: And for those listening, you've been listening to the incredible
Speaker 6: and incomparable Burl Bear talking about body Count and the
Speaker 6: re release of body Count and the story of Robert
Speaker 6: Lee Yates Junior, the one of the Spokane serial killers.
Speaker 6: So a very very fascinating case and a very very
Speaker 6: fascinating book by Burl Beer. So thank you very much,
Speaker 6: Burl and Gady, thank you very much, Burke, good night,