Speaker 1: Big Food and Beyond.
Speaker 2: With Cliff and Bobo.
Speaker 1: These guys are your favorites, so like say subscribe and raid.
Speaker 3: It Live, Stock and.
Speaker 4: Gratious Gone Yesterday and listening watching Lin always keep it's watching.
Speaker 3: And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Speaker 2: Hey, Bobo, how you doing today?
Speaker 3: All right? How's going to your Cliff?
Speaker 4: Things are pretty good, man. It's been an eventful week
Speaker 4: in general. I've got some phone calls. I've got an
Speaker 4: exciting report on Monday that was kind of cool. Somebody
Speaker 4: saw one on a highway twenty six, right up past
Speaker 4: rhododendron at five o'clock in the morning on his way
Speaker 4: to work. So I went out and looked around a
Speaker 4: little bit, cast something. Not so sure it's a print,
Speaker 4: might be erosion, but you know me, I cast everything
Speaker 4: and figured try to figure it out later, I guess,
Speaker 4: you know. But yeah, it's been a great week.
Speaker 3: Cool, Yeah, I mean this is prime time. This is
Speaker 3: one of the most reports of the year coming right now.
Speaker 4: Sure seems like it, doesn't it. October seems to be
Speaker 4: the month.
Speaker 3: It's definitely October when it comes to squatching.
Speaker 4: Right, Squatch tober. Yeah, so, Bobo, who do you have
Speaker 4: for us today? Actually I know, but I just want
Speaker 4: to be coy.
Speaker 2: Who do you have? I couldn't be more excited.
Speaker 3: We got the esteemed John E. L. Tenny, who famous
Speaker 3: paranormal researcher and a lot of people say debunker. He's
Speaker 3: an author, he formerly ran for MAYORVA City. He's a
Speaker 3: well rounded guy and so welcome to John E. L. Tenny.
Speaker 2: John, Welcome, Welcome, welcome, So excited to have you on. Well,
Speaker 2: it's my pleasure to be here. I'm excited to get weird.
Speaker 3: With the two of you.
Speaker 2: That's the thing.
Speaker 4: You are, by far one of the most unusual people
Speaker 4: I've ever met, and you're extraordinarily intelligent and well spoken.
Speaker 4: I know a lot of weirdos and stuff, but some
Speaker 4: people are just so weird in such a way that
Speaker 4: I don't want to hang out with them. But you're
Speaker 4: just not one of those people. You're delightfully eccentric and
Speaker 4: I just love that about you. And well dressed and
Speaker 4: well dressed. Yeah, so I got three can sit on
Speaker 4: right now that you know.
Speaker 1: What's really funny is that started pretty much back in
Speaker 1: when I was in a punk rock band back in
Speaker 1: the days in the eighties, a friend of mine who
Speaker 1: had this super tall mohawk and a leather jacket, and
Speaker 1: I cut my hair in a mohawk and showed up
Speaker 1: with a leather jacket, and he said, what are you doing?
Speaker 2: He's like, I thought you wanted to be yourself. You
Speaker 2: look like everyone else that's here.
Speaker 1: And the next show that I went to, I bought
Speaker 1: a three piece suit and worked at the punk show,
Speaker 1: and everybody started calling me the weirdo in the three
Speaker 1: piece suit.
Speaker 2: But I look different from everybody.
Speaker 4: Right, you still do you stand out? Not everybody who's
Speaker 4: interested in unusual things dresses to the tea.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: T shirts and jeans pretty much seem to be the
Speaker 2: standard these days.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well you're up in the game for everybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's another aspect to it.
Speaker 1: When I used to go into lectures and conferences back
Speaker 1: in the eighties and nineties, like whether or not it's
Speaker 1: just a subconscious thing that happens with us with authority figures.
Speaker 1: But I always took the guys who were talking about
Speaker 1: everybody was talking about insane, crazy stuff, but the guys
Speaker 1: that were wearing ties, I was like, oh, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: he knows something more.
Speaker 2: He looks like an adult.
Speaker 3: That's a documented that's a documented phenomenon. Actually, I believe it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I really do think that it makes a
Speaker 1: difference when someone is kind of put together, and even
Speaker 1: if they're telling you about UFO's and Bigfoot or ghosts,
Speaker 1: like your brain sees that as some kind of authority
Speaker 1: figure or.
Speaker 3: A doctor's coat, white lab coat.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I would normally say a mask, but you
Speaker 4: know that's not the case nowadays.
Speaker 2: It's a different thing.
Speaker 3: So I got to say, the last time I was
Speaker 3: talking to you, John, are you ready to admit now
Speaker 3: that you were wrong and I was right that Bob
Speaker 3: Lazar is the real deal?
Speaker 2: No, No, I still don't believe Bob's story.
Speaker 4: Well, who's the Problemazarre, Bring me into this. Who's this guy,
Speaker 4: the UFO.
Speaker 3: Guy from Area fifty one that came public in Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: that guy Element fifteen and all that.
Speaker 4: He claims to have worked there and seen everything and
Speaker 4: all that other stuff. That guy, right, Yeah, Okay, so
Speaker 4: that's not the real deal, John, in your opinion.
Speaker 1: You know, Bob's story first came around in the late eighties,
Speaker 1: and by the nineties people had their doubts, because when
Speaker 1: you say that you've been to colleges and worked at places,
Speaker 1: there should be some kind something, some kind of paper
Speaker 1: record trail of you being there. And by the mid nineties,
Speaker 1: no one could find any of it, and his story
Speaker 1: kind of got brushed under the carpet as made up.
Speaker 1: And then, for whatever reason, his story came back around
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago and they made a documentary
Speaker 1: about him, And like you, there's still no evidence that
Speaker 1: he ever worked at the places he says he worked,
Speaker 1: or even went to school at the places he went
Speaker 1: to school.
Speaker 4: I bet that feeds his narrative, though, doesn't it Like
Speaker 4: he's kind of twisted it and maybe he did work there.
Speaker 3: Who knows.
Speaker 4: I don't know anything about this guy, but I know that,
Speaker 4: at least in the bigfoot world, like when you ask
Speaker 4: for evidence about a certain thing, particularly the strange things,
Speaker 4: the person usually comes back no, there's they got rid
Speaker 4: of it, or the government brushed it under the rug,
Speaker 4: or that's what they want you to think or know.
Speaker 4: They scrub the website, or there's some sort of a
Speaker 4: more even more fantastical paranoid thing behind it that feeds
Speaker 4: that person's narrative.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but with Bob. But with Bob though, I mean
Speaker 3: they did. He's a bunch of stuff he said back then,
Speaker 3: it's now bored out to be true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But like I think, you know, if you look
Speaker 1: at science fiction writers, a lot of the stuff that
Speaker 1: they wrote bore out to be true too. Like if
Speaker 1: you if you guess enough and you say enough stuff,
Speaker 1: and you talk for a long and a period of time,
Speaker 1: some of what you say is probably going to end
Speaker 1: up being true, thank God.
Speaker 2: But he knew about the.
Speaker 3: Hand the way the hand sensor worked and element one
Speaker 3: point fifteen and his description of how they've and all
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. How does he guess that?
Speaker 1: But I mean, like even the hand sensor thing like
Speaker 1: people have now discovered, Like there was an episode of
Speaker 1: Outer Limits that shows a hand sensor, and there was
Speaker 1: a science fiction movie out of England that showed in
Speaker 1: the United States that showed a hand censor, like back
Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies. And so I mean, you're
Speaker 1: just kind of thinking forward. And like I said, if
Speaker 1: you say enough stuff. The thing that really cracks me up,
Speaker 1: because you're right, Cliff, Like a lot of people, especially
Speaker 1: in the UFO community, will say, well, my record's been
Speaker 1: scrubbed by the government if I of course they're they're
Speaker 1: going to erase my trail and my history. But the
Speaker 1: thing is a lot of the times, the majority of
Speaker 1: the time in my life, I've found it's even people
Speaker 1: working against you make mistakes. They're just people, and something
Speaker 1: ends up slipping through the cracks. Like there should be
Speaker 1: a yearbook somewhere with his picture in it, you know,
Speaker 1: saying that he wanted to go to MIT, like he
Speaker 1: said he went to MIT. And the only evidence that
Speaker 1: anyone can find of that is like he intended like
Speaker 1: an extra course that anybody could join in, like a
Speaker 1: like a four week course on physics at MIT that
Speaker 1: anybody can just join to.
Speaker 2: And that's not graduating from MIT.
Speaker 1: We found that paperwork, but then all of his doctoral
Speaker 1: paperwork just seems to have vanished.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I think that we're getting ahead of
Speaker 4: ourselves a little bit.
Speaker 2: Let's do this.
Speaker 4: There may be a couple of people listening who don't
Speaker 4: know who you are on like for example, like I
Speaker 4: didn't know you're on a television show until years after
Speaker 4: I met you. I just you're just some cool guy
Speaker 4: I like to talk to. You know that we see
Speaker 4: at these conferences and whatnot and etc. So bring us
Speaker 4: all the way back and tell us how you got
Speaker 4: so darned weird. To begin with, he's not weird.
Speaker 2: I say that in a be loving way.
Speaker 1: By the way, yeah, I mean I talk about that
Speaker 1: at my lectures too, Like the first time I was
Speaker 1: called weird were by some kids that were probably punching
Speaker 1: me in a stomach, you know. And I really love words,
Speaker 1: so really quickly before I give you my brief history,
Speaker 1: like when I talk when I call people weirdos and
Speaker 1: when I say people are weird. The etymology of the
Speaker 1: word weird comes from the fourteenth century. For its w
Speaker 1: y r d was the original word, and it literally
Speaker 1: meant the people who lived on the outskirts of town
Speaker 1: that didn't follow the rules of the kings and the queens.
Speaker 1: It translates into those who manifest their own destiny. So
Speaker 1: when I call someone a weirdo, I'm saying, like, you
Speaker 1: think for yourself, and you don't necessarily.
Speaker 2: Follow the rules. So I does it Does it share
Speaker 2: a root with the word wild? By any chance? It does?
Speaker 5: Actually, yeah, yeah, I can see that. That's very interesting. Okay,
Speaker 5: you know, speaking of the weirdos that band review or
Speaker 5: the weirdos of the band. Yeah, they had a great
Speaker 5: squatch setting down in San Mateo County below San Francisco,
Speaker 5: come Highway won They've had a gig at Santa Cruz
Speaker 5: at the Catalyst the night before. Then they had a
Speaker 5: Friday morning morning radio Zoo cruise show or some kind
Speaker 5: of thing like that. They had to appear in play
Speaker 5: live at like nine thirty am up in San Francisco.
Speaker 5: So they left at the butt crack of dawn. Sanmaca's
Speaker 5: driving Northland the Highway one, and a big female bigfoot
Speaker 5: walked out into the Highway one. Hell, there had a
Speaker 5: like stop like halt, like a cop wood or a
Speaker 5: traffic you know, crossing guard then waved in. Then three
Speaker 5: from like teenage size to like kindergarten size, three little
Speaker 5: hairy squatches came out single file and trotted across the
Speaker 5: road and they walked off into the tree line.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, my goodness, Well you know, I'm going to
Speaker 4: continue hurting these cats around a little bit. So weird
Speaker 4: means somebody who's living on the fringes of society, then,
Speaker 4: is essentially what you were saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and I'm not one of those people that
Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of people in paranormal cryptozoology
Speaker 1: that have stories about when they were little and something
Speaker 1: strange happened to them. I'm not one of those kids.
Speaker 1: I legitimately was just a nerdy kid growing up in
Speaker 1: the kind of lower middle class suburb of Detroit, and
Speaker 1: I didn't like people telling me what I could and
Speaker 1: couldn't think about. I think that's part of why I
Speaker 1: joined a punk rock band and stuff. I just didn't
Speaker 1: want people telling me what I could think about. And
Speaker 1: I ended up making friends with people who were witches
Speaker 1: and psychics and UFO researchers and conspiracy theorists, and by
Speaker 1: the time I was eighteen, I was giving lectures on
Speaker 1: things like political assassinations of the nineteen sixties or seventies
Speaker 1: and UFOs and Michigan has a long history of strange cryptids,
Speaker 1: so that fascinated me too. And when I was in
Speaker 1: my second year of college, I thought I was just
Speaker 1: going to be a history teacher with a major in folklore.
Speaker 1: A friend of mine called me and asked me if
Speaker 1: I wanted to research for the show Unsolved Mysteries. So
Speaker 1: I quit college and that was my first foray in
Speaker 1: television and kind of never really looked back. I mean,
Speaker 1: I held a lot of normal, everyday jobs, but I
Speaker 1: was always supplementing it by driving around the country, going
Speaker 1: to libraries and talking to people about weird stuff, or
Speaker 1: working on television shows in the nineties like Sightings or
Speaker 1: very scary stories on Fox. And when paranormal shows popped
Speaker 1: up in the mid two thousands, like all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: here's me. It's still relatively young, with you know, twelve
Speaker 1: to fifteen years of research under my belt. So I
Speaker 1: got tapped by a lot of those shows to find
Speaker 1: them cases.
Speaker 2: And work with them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of the cutting edge paranormal or bigfoot
Speaker 4: or what you know, whatever word you want to put
Speaker 4: their research is frankly nowadays done by production crews. I mean,
Speaker 4: Lauren Coleman's kind of put that out there in the world,
Speaker 4: and he's kind of put that thesis there that it's
Speaker 4: no longer benefactors and whatnot, you know, from you know,
Speaker 4: Tom Slick sort of folks in the nineteen fifties. Nowadays
Speaker 4: it's production companies, which is good and bad. I mean
Speaker 4: it's good because there's a lot of money there. Of course,
Speaker 4: be thrown around, and these people are under the gun
Speaker 4: and they get some stuff done. And also they're so
Speaker 4: gutsy and have no scruples because and they'll just call
Speaker 4: whoever they don't care and just get to the bottom
Speaker 4: of things.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 4: It's also bad because it's television and the vast majority
Speaker 4: of things on TV end up being nonsense or you know,
Speaker 4: sensationalized at least. So, yeah, you were one of those
Speaker 4: guys back in the day with those early paranormal's sightings. Huh.
Speaker 4: That was the Henry Winkler Show, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was. He did a few episodes.
Speaker 1: I think they eventually switched away from him and just
Speaker 1: kind of did a voice over host because you know,
Speaker 1: just for money purposes. But yeah, there's a I'm sure
Speaker 1: if people dig through somewhere on eBay, a lot of
Speaker 1: those old weird UFO, Bigfoot and ghost VHS tapes that
Speaker 1: no one wants anymore. If you watch the very end credits,
Speaker 1: you'll probably see my name in there somewhere as a researcher.
Speaker 3: Cliff on the story about the flair video of the
Speaker 3: big Foot from the helicopter.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that what show was? That first unsolved mysteries,
Speaker 2: Unsolved mysteries. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Fleer contacted Finding Bigfoot at one time, saying they were
Speaker 4: clearing out some closets and they found a VHS tape
Speaker 4: that all it had was were Bigfoot on it, and
Speaker 4: so they put it in and they're for all you know,
Speaker 4: it seemed to be a Sasquatch on flear walking, maybe
Speaker 4: like a helicopter footage or something like that. It's like, well,
Speaker 4: what in the world is this? And they sent it
Speaker 4: to our producers and they sent it to me or
Speaker 4: me and I'd never seen it before, as I don't
Speaker 4: know what that is, and they said, well, let's do
Speaker 4: an episode. Yeah, I mean it looks good. Let's do
Speaker 4: it and find out it looked really good, right, And
Speaker 4: then I have We were filming in Maine at the time,
Speaker 4: and I was visiting with Lauren Coleman at his museum
Speaker 4: and I said, yeah, Lauren, we're going to be filming
Speaker 4: this thing in a couple of weeks. And I showed
Speaker 4: him the footage and he looks at it and he goes,
Speaker 4: that looks familiar, and I go, really, oh, he goes,
Speaker 4: let me think about that, And then like later he
Speaker 4: sent me an email or called me or something, and
Speaker 4: he recognized the footage from one of those old nineties documentaries,
Speaker 4: the one where Peter Burne was in it. And they
Speaker 4: filmed over around the east side of Mountain Hood and
Speaker 4: he was talking about how he has a helicopter at
Speaker 4: his beck and call at twenty four were seven and
Speaker 4: thermal imagers and all this stuff, and like ninety four
Speaker 4: and they got they put some dude in a suit
Speaker 4: and they follow him around in a helico. That's what
Speaker 4: we're That's the footage we were watching. But I had
Speaker 4: not seen that episode, so I didn't resonate anything with me.
Speaker 4: And then I said, oh my god, so we got
Speaker 4: to get ahead of this. We almost hit an episode
Speaker 4: on it. So I called the producers and said, stop everything,
Speaker 4: check this out. And they said, oh my gosh. So
Speaker 4: I will forever Oh Lauren for that. I think we
Speaker 4: all will forever. Oh Lauren for that one was talking
Speaker 4: about have an egg on your face from some of
Speaker 4: the old research stuff.
Speaker 3: Excited. Oh it was three. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think that was the one that eventually turned into
Speaker 4: the Oregon versus Washington one. Maybe I can't remember which
Speaker 4: one was one of these ones that we filmed so
Speaker 4: stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back after these messages. But were you
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Speaker 4: See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information. Anyway, Yeah,
Speaker 4: so to talk about that old research in the nineteen
Speaker 4: ninety stuff, some interesting things have fallen through.
Speaker 1: The c OH I would I would, I mean, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be shocked if they're I mean, there's I know,
Speaker 1: at least for unsolved mysteries, like with the production of
Speaker 1: any show, right, Like there are literally sometimes hundreds of
Speaker 1: hours of stuff that never gets used and shown. And
Speaker 1: I have to believe in my little heart with some
Speaker 1: hope of hopes that there are still you know, a
Speaker 1: quarter inch and three quarter inch tape and videotape somewhere
Speaker 1: that has all of the interviews, like the extended interviews
Speaker 1: that we did with people, a lot of the b
Speaker 1: rule that we did because a lot, like you said,
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff doesn't make the cut just
Speaker 1: because it's not hyperbolic, but it's still information, and I
Speaker 1: hope that doesn't get lost.
Speaker 3: It will.
Speaker 2: I hope the stuff that I set off, you know,
Speaker 2: didn't make the cut gets lost.
Speaker 3: I've be canceled in jail.
Speaker 2: Well, that stuff for sure exists too.
Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, filming paranormal shows, a lot
Speaker 1: of the time, something strange will happen if you're in
Speaker 1: an allegedly haunted location, and for whatever reason, like the
Speaker 1: narrative just it doesn't fit all with you know, being
Speaker 1: able to craft a story that fits in forty four minutes,
Speaker 1: and so that stuff just never sees the light of day,
Speaker 1: and that kind of bums me out sometimes.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so tell me about the or tell us
Speaker 4: I guess about the show you hosted. I've never seen
Speaker 4: this show, and I want to learn more about it.
Speaker 4: I definitely want to watch it episode.
Speaker 1: How many people did? Yeah, not many people did the
Speaker 1: show ghost Talkers. Yeah, so it was just it was
Speaker 1: it was a paranormal show. But I don't, you know,
Speaker 1: I have tend to working with networks and producers since
Speaker 1: the nineties. I tend to not work well with them,
Speaker 1: and I'm sometimes problematic with what I want and what
Speaker 1: I kind of demand if I'm going to be filming something.
Speaker 1: And so when I pitched this show to them, where
Speaker 1: it's going to be me, someone who's done this for
Speaker 1: a long time, and someone who's never done this before,
Speaker 1: investigating haunted locations, and I'll go in for one whole
Speaker 1: night by myself, and then the next night the other
Speaker 1: person will go in and we can kind of show
Speaker 1: the difference between a seasoned investigator and someone who has
Speaker 1: no real frame of reference for it. Like they liked
Speaker 1: that idea, but like the first thing right off the
Speaker 1: bat was, I told them, you know, I'm if I'm
Speaker 1: going to be in there all night long, I don't
Speaker 1: want a camera crew like I want us to be
Speaker 1: shooting everything. And that kind of blew their minds first
Speaker 1: of all, that I was going to be investigating actually
Speaker 1: all night long, because a lot of the shows ghost shows,
Speaker 1: you know, they might investigate till midnight or one or
Speaker 1: two o'clock in the morning, but they're really not shooting
Speaker 1: from nine o'clock at night untill nine o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: Just union rules, like your camera crew can't be there
Speaker 1: for fifteen hours shooting a show. But I talked them
Speaker 1: into giving me camera credits, and Chad got camera credits,
Speaker 1: and we actually went into places and investigated all night long.
Speaker 1: And once the network realized that Chad was going to
Speaker 1: scream a lot because he's in the dark and has
Speaker 1: never done this before, they really just edited the show
Speaker 1: around at and they thought it was really funny and engaging,
Speaker 1: and so a lot of the actual cool stuff that
Speaker 1: happens I think kind of got glossed over.
Speaker 2: Plus, we shot at a time where our.
Speaker 1: First episode was up against a premiere, like a season
Speaker 1: premiere of The Walking Dead.
Speaker 2: We just got buried in us too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have to go against Sunday Night Football, which
Speaker 3: was the highest rated show in America, Walking Dead and
Speaker 3: Game of Thrones.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that happened to us.
Speaker 1: We got our first episode got put against The Walking Dead.
Speaker 1: Nobody watched it, so they moved us, they moved our time,
Speaker 1: and when they moved our time, they moved us to
Speaker 1: Sunday night football and we got buried again. Then our
Speaker 1: third episode they moved our time slot again. So I mean,
Speaker 1: we're three episodes in, we've already been on it three
Speaker 1: different times during the week, and that was enough to
Speaker 1: just sink the whole thing.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and you're trying to keep it real, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And there were some again, there was some great
Speaker 1: stuff on that show that just we were the first
Speaker 1: paranormal show that was in twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: There were paranormal researchers the Psychical Research Society out of
Speaker 1: England in like the eighteen hundreds, and they studied ghosts.
Speaker 1: You know, they're still around, but they were kind of
Speaker 1: the first ghost hunters and ghost stalkers my show in
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, Like we were the first show
Speaker 1: to ever talk about them and show them on camera,
Speaker 1: and like I thought that that was just a huge thing,
Speaker 1: like there's research missing from paranormal shows, and so I
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of solve that with Ghost Talkers, and
Speaker 1: we did to a certain extent. But also, you know,
Speaker 1: if someone asked me. We went to a location where
Speaker 1: someone had seen what they said was a goat man,
Speaker 1: and they asked me about that. And so I gave
Speaker 1: this kind of long dissertation on the history of goat men.
Speaker 8: And if it was a short dissertation, it got cut
Speaker 8: down to one line because I was I said, you know,
Speaker 8: in this like fifteen minute diatribe about goat men, at
Speaker 8: some point I said, and you know, goat men are
Speaker 8: sometimes also recognized as demonic entities.
Speaker 2: And that was They cut everything but that sentence.
Speaker 1: And like when I saw the when I was doing voiceovers,
Speaker 1: and so I saw what was going to be the
Speaker 1: final cut, I just like, Wow, this is what it's
Speaker 1: going to be. I guess what is your thing on
Speaker 1: goat men? I think with animal people, I think that
Speaker 1: there is something. I think there's something psychologically like deeply
Speaker 1: embedded in us from at one time evolving from small mammals,
Speaker 1: from being mice or the equivalent of something small and
Speaker 1: warm blooded millions of years ago, that there are these
Speaker 1: kind of archetypal imageries set into our psychology where when
Speaker 1: it's dark, when it's unknown, when we're in a situation
Speaker 1: that we're unfamiliar with these kind of ancient, evolved archetypes
Speaker 1: in our mind can pop up and we start seeing
Speaker 1: the things that we feared when we were tiny, warm
Speaker 1: blooded creatures on the ground. I think that accounts for
Speaker 1: a lot of fear from UFOs and alien abductions. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you think about the fact that mice are snatched
Speaker 1: off the ground by these silent, giant eyed owls with
Speaker 1: white faces coming out of the darkness and just pulling
Speaker 1: them into pulling these mice into nothingness, and then you
Speaker 1: look at alien grays with these giant eyes and white
Speaker 1: faces coming out of the darkness and abducting people in silence. Like,
Speaker 1: I think there's something there to that.
Speaker 4: Do you think that would be the source of the
Speaker 4: dog Man phenomenon that we're watching unfold now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's possible.
Speaker 1: But also I think that especially now with quarantine and pandemic, like,
Speaker 1: people are really exploring the outside and seeing things like
Speaker 1: with new eyes.
Speaker 2: The thing that's.
Speaker 1: Difficult with me with dog Man or Bigfoot and like
Speaker 1: the mix of the two of them is if you're
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin and you're near Bray Road, and you have
Speaker 1: it in your head that you're going to see a
Speaker 1: dog man, but you see sasquatch, Like, how do you
Speaker 1: rectifyd that? If you see a big, tall, hairy thing
Speaker 1: walking through the woods and your mind is set on
Speaker 1: dog man, you're going to say you saw a dog man,
Speaker 1: but you might have seen sasquatch.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, a lot of people don't see them though,
Speaker 3: that's not the case. Like they didn't even they never
Speaker 3: even thought of dog many never they didn't think it
Speaker 3: was possible. And then they'd say I saw a bigfoot
Speaker 3: and you get the description to be like huge dog snout,
Speaker 3: you know, pointed er was on top of a tail,
Speaker 3: you know, like it's like that does big lits don't
Speaker 3: look like that's anyways bigfoots. You're not saying Bigfoot's not real,
Speaker 3: are you?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm saying that.
Speaker 1: I think that when when people when people see things
Speaker 1: that they don't commonly see, if they have bigfoot in
Speaker 1: their mind and they write right and they see a
Speaker 1: dog man, they say they see bigfoot. If they saw
Speaker 1: bigfoot and see a dog man, like the two can
Speaker 1: get wrapped up in their mind because what they're they've
Speaker 1: never seen a large, upright hairy creature walking through the forest,
Speaker 1: and so whatever is in their brain at the time,
Speaker 1: which is most likely sasquatch, because just the most popular
Speaker 1: they're going to say they saw sasquatch. But like you said,
Speaker 1: after you get their description and stuff, you can be like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's not a sasquatch, that's something else.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about dog Man a little bit more. I mean,
Speaker 4: I'm completely satisfied. This says like sasquatches are living, breathing
Speaker 4: hominins or hominoids at least of some sort of other.
Speaker 4: They're really here. They're to me completely biological. I've seen
Speaker 4: no reason to think otherwise. Dog Man I don't know
Speaker 4: what to think because the precedent really isn't there. To
Speaker 4: my knowledge, there's not historical newspaper archives and stuff that
Speaker 4: details fightings with these things to my knowledge, at least
Speaker 4: to the extent of sasquatches. I've never seen a Dogman footprint,
Speaker 4: for example. But yet I know some good witnesses, So
Speaker 4: there's something up like what is your idea or what
Speaker 4: is your hypothesis about that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with dog Man, I really don't know.
Speaker 1: Because so a couple of years ago I have went
Speaker 1: and researched dog Man case up in northern Michigan, and
Speaker 1: the farmer had come out his back door of his
Speaker 1: house and looked across his field and thought he saw
Speaker 1: a man standing far off, maybe an acre and a
Speaker 1: half away from him. Saw a man standing against a
Speaker 1: barbed wire fence, like legs kind of crossed, arm on
Speaker 1: the barbed wire fence, kind of leaning back, chilling, And
Speaker 1: as he walked toward it, he said that he saw
Speaker 1: what looked like a coyote, a very large coyote, standing
Speaker 1: on its hind legs with its arm propped on the
Speaker 1: barbarare fence. And when he got closer to it, it
Speaker 1: dropped down onto all fours, flipped itself backwards over the fence,
Speaker 1: and took off into the woods. And when I went
Speaker 1: out there, I went out there a few days later,
Speaker 1: there were no tracks or nothing. By that time he
Speaker 1: had pretty much destroyed all of that by running around
Speaker 1: the area himself.
Speaker 2: But it's just this.
Speaker 1: Strange case of it not even acting like a wild animal,
Speaker 1: like acting human.
Speaker 4: And that really fascinated me. So I really don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean I did.
Speaker 1: There was a dog man conference actually that I was
Speaker 1: a part of in Defiance, Ohio, and Defiance Ohio has
Speaker 1: a dog Man, but it's more werewolf than it is
Speaker 1: dog Man. You know, it was seen wearing a shirt
Speaker 1: and pant like ripped up pants, very werewolf esque that
Speaker 1: attacked people on the railroad tracks in Defiance. So I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's something else happening with dog Man
Speaker 1: that is perhaps more psychological and less physical.
Speaker 4: And how do you think this would tie into the
Speaker 4: union theory about UFOs being like physical manifestations of something psychological.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when I get into the weirder occultish
Speaker 1: metaphysical parts of it and start thinking about paulpas and
Speaker 1: agrigors and thought forms and can you manifest something into
Speaker 1: the reality, Like that's where a lot of the stranger
Speaker 1: creatures I think might be coming from, Like these kind
Speaker 1: of deep seated archetypes and embedded fears that we have psychologically,
Speaker 1: or perhaps we're seeing something that we just have no
Speaker 1: frame of reference for and so our brain has to
Speaker 1: categorize it as something. If you see a creature with
Speaker 1: a long snout, we're most commonly familiar with dogs looking
Speaker 1: like that, and so our brain says, that's a dog man,
Speaker 1: But who the hell knows what it really is?
Speaker 3: We could be familiar with it through the whole demonic aspect.
Speaker 3: That's the case, yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: And again, like you know, it's one of those things
Speaker 1: you were saying, you know, the Bigfoot has like this
Speaker 1: kind of real generated history that we have tracks and
Speaker 1: we have prints, but the idea of where people is
Speaker 1: far older than Bigfoot. The idea of a large upright hometed.
Speaker 1: Like we have stories about where wolves and where beasts
Speaker 1: of all different variant sorts that are that are coming
Speaker 1: from somewhere that are historically talked about throughout folklore and
Speaker 1: mythology for centuries.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a tough one. I don't think we're going
Speaker 3: to crack today.
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you my favorite Michigan case is from
Speaker 1: the sixties, and I'm sure you guys know about it,
Speaker 1: but it's I always call it the atomic Bigfoot, which
Speaker 1: is the Monroe Monster, which was Christine van Acker and
Speaker 1: her mom and allegedly a bigfoot tried to pull.
Speaker 2: Her out of a car and gave her a black eye.
Speaker 2: And it's right over by the Fermi power plant in Michigan.
Speaker 3: Whatever. How with that one, Like the cops came and
Speaker 3: there's police reports, right.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So the cops came.
Speaker 1: There was a like two week long search that fifteen
Speaker 1: hundred people like combed the forest looking for something, and
Speaker 1: then a sasquatch type creature got spotted in Three Rivers, Michigan,
Speaker 1: which is a few hundred miles away on the other
Speaker 1: side of the state of Michigan, and so then the
Speaker 1: search started over in Three Rivers to look for that thing.
Speaker 1: And a couple of weeks later, the police basically just
Speaker 1: made a statement in the paper saying it was a
Speaker 1: man in a woman's fur coat.
Speaker 4: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back after these messages. Yeah, easy to
Speaker 4: ride things off like that.
Speaker 3: She was injured, wasn't she.
Speaker 1: Yeah, her face was scraped up, she had a black eye.
Speaker 1: And that same night, about two hours after her alleged attack,
Speaker 1: there were some women coming back from her card like
Speaker 1: they had a woman's card game night and they were
Speaker 1: coming back in their car and something jumped in front
Speaker 1: of their car and actually slammed its hands on the
Speaker 1: hood of their car and dented the hood of their car.
Speaker 1: That same night, and the police said, you know, this
Speaker 1: was just this guy trying to fool people and scare people.
Speaker 2: It sounds like a really dangerous way to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably jumping out in front of driving cars in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night smashing their hoods is probably
Speaker 1: not the smartest, greatest thing to do.
Speaker 2: Women, I might have a girlfriend for twelve years.
Speaker 1: What's interesting to me about that case, though, is, as
Speaker 1: far as I know, and I've tried a couple of times,
Speaker 1: but I just end up getting lost or getting involved
Speaker 1: in another case because it leads somewhere else. Is that
Speaker 1: Christine Vanacker, that woman who was attacked, is still alive.
Speaker 1: She still lives in Michigan, and there still has to
Speaker 1: be I mean, she was relatively young. I think she
Speaker 1: was seventeen at the time, in the sixties, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lot of the people who searched the woods
Speaker 1: at that time are still around. But you know, as
Speaker 1: the days go by, the people you know pass away
Speaker 1: and information gets lost. And I'm really surprised no one
Speaker 1: has tracked her down and put her on record.
Speaker 4: It's not easy to dig into some of those older cases.
Speaker 4: And I mean, because the people are dying and I'm
Speaker 4: finding now I'm dealing I'm dealing with this whole Bossberg
Speaker 4: thing right now, Osburg, Washington, stuff that dealt with those
Speaker 4: the so called cripple foot casts, although I don't it's
Speaker 4: kind of an inappropriate name nowadays, but like the Bossburg incidents,
Speaker 4: and I'm trying to find witnesses who had seen them.
Speaker 4: I spoke to one gentleman who actually saw the prince
Speaker 4: in the ground. His brother is so far eluded to me.
Speaker 4: And I've been working with the Callville Historical Society to
Speaker 4: try to dig some of these people up, not literally
Speaker 4: because some of them actually are dead, but they're to
Speaker 4: try to find them and uh and I've gotten some
Speaker 4: uh stuff like but like no contact. But the most
Speaker 4: recent thing I heard was, yeah, Cliff, a lot of
Speaker 4: those people are dead, but that set and implies that
Speaker 4: they're not all dead, so can help me out, you know.
Speaker 4: So I'm still trying to find people like that too.
Speaker 4: And I do think that these historical cases are worthy
Speaker 4: of looking into, because even even already and my cursory
Speaker 4: glands at the Bossburg thing for the last couple of months,
Speaker 4: found new we found new casts that didn't that nobody
Speaker 4: knew existed, you know, from from almost or fifty years
Speaker 4: ago pretty much. So these old cases I think are
Speaker 4: very worthwhile looking into, because as the young whipper snappers
Speaker 4: in the community that we once were, and you know
Speaker 4: now we're the old men of whatever field it is.
Speaker 4: But we're looking at this thinking, oh, well, the horseman
Speaker 4: already looked into that. I mean Green was there, Krantz
Speaker 4: was there, the Hinden was at the Bossburg thing. I
Speaker 4: mean Patterson was there, Dennis Jensen was there. Certainly they
Speaker 4: would have done as thorough a job as could possibly
Speaker 4: be done by humans.
Speaker 2: Apparently not.
Speaker 4: I think that old cases like that need a second glance,
Speaker 4: no matter how many decades have passed. So I hope
Speaker 4: you hope you either chase this person down or know
Speaker 4: somebody who does.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's one of those things, right, Like I
Speaker 1: was trying to put together a television show about the
Speaker 1: UFO sightings in Michigan in nineteen sixty six, which are
Speaker 1: arguably like the largest UFO sighting, that's the one that
Speaker 1: became known as the Swamp Gas sighting. But you have,
Speaker 1: you know, of people seeing these UFOs over the course
Speaker 1: of two weeks. The police officers are chasing them in
Speaker 1: their cars, and I was like, this needs to be documented,
Speaker 1: and so I went to a network and pitched a
Speaker 1: whole show about, like, we have to find these people
Speaker 1: because now they are passing away, it's getting less and
Speaker 1: less every single day. Let's get them on record finally,
Speaker 1: and maybe we can come to some type of not answer,
Speaker 1: but at least some kind of resolution about how they
Speaker 1: should feel about their experience. And the network was super
Speaker 1: into it, and we started shooting and going around with
Speaker 1: the network. There was a telephone call and at some
Speaker 1: point they said, well, is there any way that we
Speaker 1: could slip some like bigfoot type monsters into the show?
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, it has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with that, and they were like, well, we just think
Speaker 1: it would be more interesting if there was a monster.
Speaker 1: And I told them, like, I didn't want to do
Speaker 1: the show, and they that's how I don't get along
Speaker 1: well with networks.
Speaker 2: Like I just told them, Okay, I'm done. I'm not
Speaker 2: doing the show. And then we didn't do the show.
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of sad in it because we were
Speaker 1: getting people on tape who were really instrumental and really
Speaker 1: involved in the sixty six sighting. But yeah, like that
Speaker 1: Christine van Acker case, like everybody makes documentaries about almost anything,
Speaker 1: strange now, which is to make content. And I'm so
Speaker 1: surprised there's not an hour long documentary or a Netflix documentary.
Speaker 1: This is a Bigfoot attack, right, like, this is a
Speaker 1: not very common experience of the an enraged Bigfoot, you know,
Speaker 1: physically attacking someone and attacking another car, and fifteen hundred
Speaker 1: people searching the field. Like you'd think that'd make a
Speaker 1: pretty good two hour doc. And where did you hear
Speaker 1: about this case?
Speaker 2: John Oh?
Speaker 1: I think I first read about that case in probably
Speaker 1: one of Lauren's books. I know that it got covered
Speaker 1: here extensively in the newspaper that was, you know, a
Speaker 1: Michigan case. So it was pretty easy for me to
Speaker 1: go to the Troit Public Library and just pull all
Speaker 1: the microfeature records and start xeroxy everything. But I think
Speaker 1: I probably first read about it in one of Lauren's books.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty well known, Cliff that one.
Speaker 2: But you know, I have about names, man, names are
Speaker 2: like water in my hands.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, since it's close to the Fermi
Speaker 1: power plant, like I said, not to some things are hyperbolic.
Speaker 1: But in my notes into my files, I always write
Speaker 1: the atomic Bigfoot, just because it was right there and
Speaker 1: it sounds so in nineteen sixties, it sounds like a
Speaker 1: good sci fi movie.
Speaker 3: Because John, you're a noted skeptic and you're a debunker.
Speaker 3: Do you ever get hired to do that for these shows?
Speaker 3: Because I mean, you've I can't rub the top my
Speaker 3: heavy You told me some great cases that you unraveled.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So every now and then people will call me in,
Speaker 1: not so much to debunk an entire case, but ask me.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the things I did when I
Speaker 1: really realized I was going to be a researcher an investigator,
Speaker 1: one of the first things I did was like joined
Speaker 1: the International Brotherhood of Magicians and the Society for American
Speaker 1: Magicians because I wanted to know how my brain could
Speaker 1: be tricked just by magic. And then I started studying
Speaker 1: hypnosis and going back through all the old books that
Speaker 1: people use to fake seances and spiritualism. So a lot
Speaker 1: of times with ghost hunting shows, they would call me
Speaker 1: in and say, you know, this is happening, this is happening.
Speaker 1: Can we figure out if there's an actual rational explanation
Speaker 1: for this where it might not be a haunting or
Speaker 1: someone might be trying to trick us, And you know,
Speaker 1: that's good because you don't get fooled on television. You know,
Speaker 1: the show doesn't come out and then someone says, oh,
Speaker 1: I tricked you and fooled you.
Speaker 2: But people have done some really.
Speaker 1: I mean I've seen people do stuff as crazy as
Speaker 1: putting swallowing dry ice chips so that their stomach will
Speaker 1: gurgle to sound like a demonic like voice in the dark.
Speaker 1: No kidding, Yeah, I mean it's crazy with the lengths
Speaker 1: people will go to to kind of hoax and you
Speaker 1: try and full television shows because they want to be
Speaker 1: on TV.
Speaker 3: You know it, because I remember we were at one
Speaker 3: of those paranormal conferences and I was impressed because I
Speaker 3: wasn't impressed with a lot of like a lot of
Speaker 3: those people like palm readers and psychics and this and that.
Speaker 3: I was like, these people are They're fooling themselves and
Speaker 3: fool in other people. But the one person, the one
Speaker 3: person that I thought this person's the real deal was
Speaker 3: Amy from a Dead Files to get a shows And
Speaker 3: you said Amy Allen, Yeah, yeah, Amy, And I go,
Speaker 3: she's I just knew she was the really that you said.
Speaker 3: You know what, the thousand people I've interviewed you said,
Speaker 3: she's one of four that I've believed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've run into so many. I used
Speaker 2: to in the early two thousands.
Speaker 1: I used to go around, go around Michigan and test psychics,
Speaker 1: Like I had this huge thing that I would do,
Speaker 1: and people would tell me they were psychic, and I'd
Speaker 1: have them come in and do all types of experiments.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, I must have tested hundreds of
Speaker 1: psychics in Michigan, and out of the hundreds I tested,
Speaker 1: there were maybe two or three that that could do
Speaker 1: something that was really interesting. And sometimes it was you know,
Speaker 1: there was one guy that everybody told me was the
Speaker 1: best psychic, and I was really doubting what they meant
Speaker 1: by best psychic, and I brought him in and tested him.
Speaker 1: And the first thing that I would do a lot
Speaker 1: of the times, if I was not really impressed with
Speaker 1: meeting the person and maybe not thinking that they were
Speaker 1: psychic right off the bat, just kind of using my
Speaker 1: BS detector, the first thing I'd do is I just
Speaker 1: have them do a red and black gas on a
Speaker 1: fifty two deck of cards. And he did his fifty
Speaker 1: two reading and he looked at me and kind of
Speaker 1: giggled when we were done because he had gotten fifty
Speaker 1: of them wrong and he had two of them right.
Speaker 2: And he said, well, what do you think of my
Speaker 2: psychic powers?
Speaker 1: And I said, I think that you're probably one of
Speaker 1: the best psychics that I've ever seen, because getting fifty
Speaker 1: wrong is as insane as getting fifty right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had a fifty percent chance with each card
Speaker 4: it makes. Yeah, that's astronomical. The odds in set are phenomenal. Yeah,
Speaker 4: And so like the idea, it was so funny just
Speaker 4: he was a psychic. And after I continue, I tested
Speaker 4: him for about a week and a half and what
Speaker 4: seemed so bizarrely incredible to me was that he was
Speaker 4: a psychic who always got everything wrong. And it was
Speaker 4: this whole twist on psychic powers, like he just couldn't
Speaker 4: get it right.
Speaker 1: There was something in his brain that he did the
Speaker 1: opposite of what he was supposed to be doing, whether
Speaker 1: it was card guessing tests or doing remote viewing, it
Speaker 1: was always exactly the opposite.
Speaker 2: It was so strange.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like a you know, Church of the SubGenius Jr.
Speaker 4: Bob Dobbs thing where Bob Dobbs bungles his way through divinity.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The art of of the divine accident, I guess, you know, yeah, and.
Speaker 1: Being a magician too, you know, it did help because
Speaker 1: a lot of psychics and a lot of mediums are
Speaker 1: just doing magic tricks.
Speaker 2: They're just doing cold reading. You know that they know
Speaker 2: the estimates.
Speaker 1: If you're talking to a man who seems to be
Speaker 1: between the ages of you know, eighteen and thirty, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of things that you can say to
Speaker 1: a man eighteen and thirty, no matter who he is,
Speaker 1: if he was brought and usually you know, you find
Speaker 1: their name, you can pretty much guess that they're in
Speaker 1: the location that you're in speaking, and you can generalize
Speaker 1: to the point of seeming like you're psychic.
Speaker 3: With Amy, for instance, what convinced she was telling the truth.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I find with people who
Speaker 1: seem to actually have some type of psychic power is
Speaker 1: that they I don't like to use this word, but
Speaker 1: I will just for lack of better terminology, which we
Speaker 1: don't have in a lot of the paranormal supernatural world,
Speaker 1: but they seem to almost really be cursed with it,
Speaker 1: and the way that they their body, their eyes, their mind,
Speaker 1: their voice, like everything reacts while they're doing it. It's
Speaker 1: almost as if there's some kind of miswire that's happening.
Speaker 1: And I see that a lot when I watch Amy
Speaker 1: do what she does, and just the way that her
Speaker 1: throat will click. There's little subtle things that happen with
Speaker 1: her eyes. Some of them are not so subtle. And
Speaker 1: if she's faking, I mean, it's one of the best
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. So she's almost like uncomfortable in a way.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: One of the people that I know who lives in
Speaker 1: Michigan that I think is a really valid psychic friend
Speaker 1: of mine, names Damien. He does not promote himself as
Speaker 1: a psychic. He doesn't do really psychic greetings. I asked
Speaker 1: him to do psychic greetings. I told him, like, I
Speaker 1: want you to get out of your wheelhouse and I'm
Speaker 1: going to do a lecture, and I want you to
Speaker 1: come in the back and do psychic greetings for people
Speaker 1: and don't charge them. I'll pay you whatever you want.
Speaker 1: I'll pay you fifty bucks a reading or something like that.
Speaker 1: And I did my lecture and at the end of
Speaker 1: my life, sure, he came up and he was like,
Speaker 1: you don't know me anything. He's like, I did half
Speaker 1: of one reading, and I just got really bummed out
Speaker 1: by it, and I thought to myself, like just that
Speaker 1: aspect of like if you were in this to make money,
Speaker 1: like he could have sat back there and made a
Speaker 1: few hundred dollars during the lecture. And he looked so
Speaker 1: worn out and so tired after doing a quote unquote
Speaker 1: psychic reading for someone for ten minutes and then just
Speaker 1: refused to do any more for the rest of the night.
Speaker 1: Like that's that is really telling about a person.
Speaker 4: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and
Speaker 4: Bobo will be right back after these messages.
Speaker 2: You know, a few years ago I heard you speak.
Speaker 4: I wasn't in the same room, but you were actually
Speaker 4: over the loud speakers at the time, which I really
Speaker 4: appreciated because you know, I was at my vending table
Speaker 4: and I don't get a chance to see the other speakers,
Speaker 4: but actually heard yours And it was the first time
Speaker 4: i'd heard your any any of your your lectures. And
Speaker 4: what would I took away from it that I thought
Speaker 4: was really cool that you don't get a lot of
Speaker 4: was I could hear in your voice, and I could
Speaker 4: hear your encouragement for the audience. To dive in deep
Speaker 4: and enjoy what you're doing. I enjoy the weird that
Speaker 4: that you find yourself in and how phenomenal that is
Speaker 4: to be able to do that. And you're so encouraging
Speaker 4: to the audience in this sort of way, because frankly,
Speaker 4: i'd be rate the audience. I say, we're not doing enough,
Speaker 4: good enough job. You call yourself a researcher, you know,
Speaker 4: like that, And like the old man Crotchety Cliff is
Speaker 4: on stage and everybody feels bummed when I leave, right
Speaker 4: because I'm trying to up everybody's game. But you, but
Speaker 4: you're much more encouraging than I am, and I just
Speaker 4: think that is so gratifying to hear. So can you
Speaker 4: tell us a little bit about that, about just that
Speaker 4: sort of spirit from which you come?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have always been the type of person.
Speaker 1: First of all, I know that people have difficulty talking
Speaker 1: about their bigfoot encounter or they saw UFO, or they
Speaker 1: think they saw a ghost, like the weirdness that people experience,
Speaker 1: a lot of people have difficulty with voicing. And I
Speaker 1: really do believe that if there was if we all
Speaker 1: talked about the weird stuff, we did the weird psychic flashes,
Speaker 1: that we have premonitory dreams seeing a weird light in
Speaker 1: the sky. If we discussed that openly and honestly with
Speaker 1: each other, we would realize that it's not so weird,
Speaker 1: Like we live in a vastly strange universe that we
Speaker 1: know actually very little about. And not only that, but
Speaker 1: the joy that comes along with mystery and the hunt,
Speaker 1: like going out into the woods in the darkness, going
Speaker 1: into an allegedly haunted house, staring at the sky looking
Speaker 1: for UFOs. These are things that the majority of people
Speaker 1: don't readily do, and so when you're doing you should
Speaker 1: be able to think to.
Speaker 2: Yourself, like, how much fun is this?
Speaker 1: I'm in the woods looking for Bigfoot or I'm in
Speaker 1: this old prison and I'm looking for ghosts. Most people
Speaker 1: who have lived and who will live don't do what
Speaker 1: we do. They don't think about what we think about.
Speaker 1: And that is joyful to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is.
Speaker 4: And it's nice to hear a voice like that because
Speaker 4: being so deep into it, like I am, and I
Speaker 4: know Bobo is and all that you know, but being
Speaker 4: in our positions, I think it is something that is
Speaker 4: easily for myself, at least forgotten that I do somehow,
Speaker 4: you know, live an extraordinary life, even though it seems
Speaker 4: like my ordinary life is when I wake up in
Speaker 4: every day. But it is extraordinary, and I forget that
Speaker 4: sometimes because all my friends are weirdos too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, But it's one of those things, right,
Speaker 1: Like to look for a UFO doesn't mean that you
Speaker 1: have to have like flears and night vision cameras and stuff.
Speaker 1: It just means you go outside and like stare at
Speaker 1: the night sky and look at space. And while you're
Speaker 1: doing that, there's something in you that starts to contemplate
Speaker 1: the weirdness of reality and what's going on.
Speaker 2: When you're sitting alone in.
Speaker 1: An allegedly haunted house, you start to think about your
Speaker 1: mortality and the seemingly shared reality you have, what's going
Speaker 1: to happen with you when you die.
Speaker 2: You get very philosophical sitting out in the woods listening
Speaker 2: to nature and seeing this vast, crazy world of color
Speaker 2: and sound that the animals experience, probably in a very
Speaker 2: different way, and how you relate to it because we're
Speaker 2: animals as well, and I do just really think it's wondrous.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it absolutely is. Now now the experience you to
Speaker 4: subscribe is essentially the description of a fan or an aficionado,
Speaker 4: or someone who's interested in the phenomenon whatever it is,
Speaker 4: UFO's Bigfoot, etc. So, where is the line in your
Speaker 4: opinion where someone crosses over from being an enthusiast and
Speaker 4: into a researcher.
Speaker 2: Is zrey Lyne?
Speaker 4: And if so, where is it?
Speaker 1: I think for me the line was the first time
Speaker 1: I cold called a witness. I think that really made
Speaker 1: a deep difference in just being someone who was fascinated
Speaker 1: with the phenomena to actually like standing on a stranger's
Speaker 1: front porch and I am about to ask this question
Speaker 1: of a stranger. I am about to get into this
Speaker 1: conversation with this person who had what they thought or
Speaker 1: might have had an experience. And I think doing that
Speaker 1: talking to experiencers and people who have had experiences and
Speaker 1: tracking down old cases that you can go and talk
Speaker 1: to those people, I think that's kind of where the
Speaker 1: line gets crossed.
Speaker 4: So in a way, it's kind of probing someone else's
Speaker 4: life uninvited and documenting it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that part of it, And I think there's also
Speaker 1: a part of it too, where I think that you
Speaker 1: leave being a fan behind once you are doubting what
Speaker 1: you're thinking about.
Speaker 4: Well, that's an important thing. Tell us talk to us
Speaker 4: a little bit more about doubting what you're thinking about.
Speaker 2: I like this line of thought.
Speaker 1: It's one of those ideas. I mean, now, especially with
Speaker 1: social media and just the way the Internet is, you know,
Speaker 1: we get in these spheres that reconfirm everything we already
Speaker 1: believe and think that we believe, and it's hard to
Speaker 1: get out of those bubbles, and when you start to realize, like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe that is not how it is.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I always tell people, and it's another reason that I
Speaker 1: sometimes get razed in the different communities, whether it's UFOs
Speaker 1: or cryptos or ghosts. I tell people all the time,
Speaker 1: like I truly try not to believe in anything. Like
Speaker 1: a belief is a concrete shoe. It keeps you from moving.
Speaker 1: I have an infinitude of ideas. Ideas are malleable and flexible,
Speaker 1: and they can change over time. And that's something I'm
Speaker 1: very receptive to, especially when I'm talking to someone about
Speaker 1: something like sasquatch or talking to someone about UFOs. Like
Speaker 1: if a person thinks that UFOs are only nuts and bolts,
Speaker 1: and that's it, it's just a high tech civilization that
Speaker 1: figured out how to do this before we did, and
Speaker 1: they came here. That doesn't seem all that interesting to
Speaker 1: me if that's all the phenomena is. But if that's
Speaker 1: what you believe it is, I think it's very limiting
Speaker 1: in the scope of realizing how weird the world is.
Speaker 1: And so I think challenging your own belief and saying,
Speaker 1: am I right?
Speaker 2: Am I wrong? Is that idea better?
Speaker 1: Being able to throw out your old ideas as your
Speaker 1: ideas evolve, I think is vastly, vastly important.
Speaker 4: How much should your own modification of your own paradigms
Speaker 4: be based on evidence versus say, gut feelings or something
Speaker 4: like that hunches.
Speaker 2: I think it's different for different scenarios.
Speaker 1: When it comes to something like if you're looking or
Speaker 1: a flesh and blood Bigfoot, there is evidence, which I
Speaker 1: think physical evidence, that will change your ideas about that
Speaker 1: physical creature. When it comes to something like ghosts, that
Speaker 1: change has less to do with evidence, because I think
Speaker 1: that ghostly experiences and supernatural experiences like that are individualized
Speaker 1: and they're kind of meant to help us on our
Speaker 1: path to development of our understanding of the world. With UFOs,
Speaker 1: it gets into a really weird area where there is
Speaker 1: physical evidence and also a very deep psychological part. So
Speaker 1: I think it plays I think it plays different roles
Speaker 1: in the different phenomenon.
Speaker 3: Well, because you had your own, like you died and
Speaker 3: all that back in the day, I remember what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I was eighteen, I had a heart attack
Speaker 1: and died and total time of death was three and
Speaker 1: a half minutes. And when I recovered from that, that's
Speaker 1: really when I started my journey. Before that, I was
Speaker 1: doing a lot of lectures on government conspiracies, and I
Speaker 1: think I said that earlier. And when I recovered from that,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, what happened to me? Not only
Speaker 1: biologically but psychologically? What did that experience mean? And what
Speaker 1: does it mean when humans have that experience and how
Speaker 1: does that change us? Do you remember any of it
Speaker 1: or is it just a missing three and a half minutes?
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: So with my death experience, there are so typically with
Speaker 1: death experiences, there are three major experiences that people have.
Speaker 1: The first one is the tunnel of light and loved
Speaker 1: ones and going toward the light, and it's very happy
Speaker 1: and positive, and that's the one you hear about the
Speaker 1: most because it's a positive experience, and that's how people
Speaker 1: understand it as a positive experience. The second one is
Speaker 1: usually the person is out of their body. They're watching
Speaker 1: the doctors work on them, they're aware of being dead.
Speaker 1: They're in the hospital room or the ambulance, watching everything
Speaker 1: going on, seeing people cry. That is kind of the
Speaker 1: second most common experience. And then the third experiences, which
Speaker 1: is the one I had, is called a null or
Speaker 1: a void experience, which is you go from living in
Speaker 1: this seemingly shared reality with everybody else to existing solely
Speaker 1: by yourself inside of infinity forever, and there's nothing there
Speaker 1: but you. You are nothing but thought or you can
Speaker 1: call it consciousness, but you are only aware of your
Speaker 1: personality existing in the void forever.
Speaker 2: And that was my experience. It's kind of.
Speaker 1: Difficult to talk about because it encompasses eternity and infinitude,
Speaker 1: which don't have really great words. So the idea that
Speaker 1: I was in a place forever seems strange to be
Speaker 1: saying to you now, because this is obviously after forever,
Speaker 1: and forever isn't supposed to have an end.
Speaker 2: It's supposed to go on forever, so the words kind
Speaker 2: of fall apart.
Speaker 3: At a certain point, I think you, I've got a
Speaker 3: preview of your trip to hell coming up.
Speaker 1: So the thing that's really interesting when I talk to
Speaker 1: other people who have had similar experiences is that in
Speaker 1: the moment, it seems very hellish, very purgatory. But the
Speaker 1: reality is that when you recover, when you internalize it properly,
Speaker 1: when you really start to think about it, it is
Speaker 1: a very transformative experience in the sense that I when
Speaker 1: I returned back to this reality, I was much more
Speaker 1: caring and much more loving, and much more appreciative of
Speaker 1: colors and sights and sounds and simple things and animals
Speaker 1: and people, and so it was a net positive experience.
Speaker 4: I would have to think that dying would make you
Speaker 4: appreciate living, certainly.
Speaker 2: I tell people all the time.
Speaker 1: One of the things that I remember, like when I
Speaker 1: woke up in the hospital bed, there was this whiteboard
Speaker 1: across from me, and it was framed in kind of
Speaker 1: dark oak wood, and I remember looking at the wood
Speaker 1: frame and thinking to myself, Wow, brown is such a
Speaker 1: beautiful color.
Speaker 2: And I almost never saw it again.
Speaker 1: You realize that brown gray, like these things that we
Speaker 1: take so much advantage of, we don't even think about
Speaker 1: them anymore, how spectacular and beautiful they are. And then
Speaker 1: when you start to think about people and individuality and
Speaker 1: each person you meet, how uniquely special they are. It really,
Speaker 1: like I said, is transformative.
Speaker 3: Does that affect you when you're doing investigations in like
Speaker 3: ghosts and that sort of terneral stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to a certain degree.
Speaker 1: I usually come at the when I'm investigating for a
Speaker 1: ghost or a spirit or something like that, I really
Speaker 1: truly try to not personify that entity or spirit, whatever
Speaker 1: people want to call it, in the sense that everybody
Speaker 1: thinks that a ghost is kind of just like an
Speaker 1: invisible version of you that can walk through walls and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And I really think that the six
Speaker 1: year old me doesn't exist anymore, but John is still here.
Speaker 1: I have changed and grown because of the experiences of
Speaker 1: my life, and so if I were to die and
Speaker 1: be out of my body and still exist in some form,
Speaker 1: I would be having all new experiences. So how long
Speaker 1: would I remain John? How long would I remain this
Speaker 1: version of John? And a lot of people talk to ghosts,
Speaker 1: like the people and taught, I try to speak to
Speaker 1: entities or research entities or research cases as if knowing
Speaker 1: that they were people at one time, but that they
Speaker 1: have become something that's unknowable to me at this moment.
Speaker 4: Is that your model for what ghosts are things that
Speaker 4: were once alive and are no longer some of them.
Speaker 2: I think that I have as many.
Speaker 1: I think that there are probably as many different types
Speaker 1: of spirits and entities as our ideas about spirits and entities.
Speaker 1: You know, whether you start to think about, you know,
Speaker 1: if there are extraterrestrials, do they have ghosts too? You know, so,
Speaker 1: and why wouldn't they come to this planet as ghosts?
Speaker 1: And so maybe some of the extraterrestrials are ghosts. And
Speaker 1: you know, when I was at I was at dinner
Speaker 1: with Amy Bruney there's a couple of years ago, and
Speaker 1: her daughter, I think was four or five at the time,
Speaker 1: and her daughter said, you know, why are there no
Speaker 1: dinosaur ghosts? And I thought to myself, like, well, maybe
Speaker 1: there are. Maybe that's why you can't catch Ogo Pogo,
Speaker 1: and you can't catch the Lochness Monster, and you can't
Speaker 1: catch the dinosaurs that people have spotted, Like maybe we're
Speaker 1: seeing the ghosts of prehistoric creatures. Maybe some of the
Speaker 1: bigfoot sightings people see our caveman ghosts.
Speaker 4: Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bogo.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back after these messages, I will say.
Speaker 4: One researcher suggested that these orbs are Bigfoot ghosts, which,
Speaker 4: of course, you know, I don't even want to think
Speaker 4: about it at this point because I'm worried about the
Speaker 4: physical animal, let alone with this other stuff. You know,
Speaker 4: but that's certainly been brought up before in the context
Speaker 4: of sasquatches. That's something like that is going on, and
Speaker 4: I guess why not. But I guess I'll worry about that.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: Maybe when I'm dead, I'll look for Bigfoot ghosts. In
Speaker 4: the meantime, I will look for living ones.
Speaker 1: That's the thing too, Like I tell people at my
Speaker 1: lectures all the time, like research the thing that you're
Speaker 1: interested in. You don't have to look for Bigfoot as
Speaker 1: an alien or Bigfoot as a ghost. If you're interested
Speaker 1: in Bigfoot as upright hominid, you know, with local motion,
Speaker 1: like go go for that and research that if you
Speaker 1: want to. If you do want to, you know, investigate
Speaker 1: aliens simply as nuts and bolt saucers. Go and do that,
Speaker 1: Like do what makes you happy and do what brings
Speaker 1: joy into your life and fulfills that, you know, search
Speaker 1: for the mysterious that we're all kind of on a
Speaker 1: quest for.
Speaker 4: That's one of the things I appreciate about my friend
Speaker 4: Tom Powell, who thinks that sasquatches are you know, paranormal
Speaker 4: in nature, et cetera. And he goes at Cliff you Apers,
Speaker 4: he calls me an apro even though I think that's
Speaker 4: not exactly appropriate. It's not appropriate to actually what I
Speaker 4: actually think is going on. But you Apers, I'm glad
Speaker 4: you're doing it. It means I don't have to. We
Speaker 4: just compare notes later, you know. So yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 4: you do you man, I'll do me yeah, and know that.
Speaker 1: The other thing I stress too is I try and
Speaker 1: tell people at my lectures, like know that you're like,
Speaker 1: it's not supposed to be a we're not supposed to
Speaker 1: be trying to, you know, one up each other, like
Speaker 1: whatever weird paranormal, supernatural cryptozoological experience that you've had personally
Speaker 1: that each person has had personally, that experience is enough.
Speaker 1: A lot of the times we have people saying like, well,
Speaker 1: I saw a bigfoot one time and someone will jump
Speaker 1: on them and say, like, well, I've seen twelve Bigfoot
Speaker 1: in my life, and like seeing Bigfoot one time is
Speaker 1: a big deal, and that experience is enough, Like you
Speaker 1: don't have to keep up in your game, because that
Speaker 1: sometimes will lead people to hoaxing stuff, which then messes
Speaker 1: up everything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how often do you find hoaxers versus real, sincere
Speaker 4: people who experience something strange? Would you venture like a
Speaker 4: percentage or something like that or even common often? You know,
Speaker 4: that's how often are you feeling people are either lying
Speaker 4: to others or perhaps lying to themselves.
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of the times, I don't
Speaker 1: think there's a percentage to hit, but I do feel
Speaker 1: that when I encounter a hoaxer or someone who is
Speaker 1: fabricating evidence, it really does have a lot to do
Speaker 1: with repeater effect, where they will have one genuine or
Speaker 1: real experience, and you know, then being unsatisfied with that,
Speaker 1: they per they start making stuff up to stay current,
Speaker 1: to stay in the kind of loop and conversation, and
Speaker 1: and then that eventually will discount their original experience. You know,
Speaker 1: if you discover that they are hoaxing stuff, then even
Speaker 1: the real genuine one at the beginning.
Speaker 2: Falls into question, but I don't it's not that often.
Speaker 2: I think that people are mostly genuine with their experiences.
Speaker 2: I just think that there's also that part of humanity
Speaker 2: where if they don't get the fame or you know,
Speaker 2: recognition that they think they might deserve from having a
Speaker 2: weird experience, that's that's where people can start really messing
Speaker 2: up and start hoaxing and even I think, fooling themselves
Speaker 2: about what they might be experiencing.
Speaker 3: What's the craziest thing you saw it through your mind,
Speaker 3: like paranormal was, that's.
Speaker 2: A fairly so if I go ghost.
Speaker 1: Then probably In nineteen ninety nine, a friend of mine
Speaker 1: who worked for the well, this is not ghosts, but
Speaker 1: kind of spiritual. In nineteen ninety nine, a friend of
Speaker 1: mine who worked for the Archdiocese of Detroit. They asked
Speaker 1: me if I wanted to sit in on a Vatican
Speaker 1: spunctored sponsored exorcism, and so I did that. So I
Speaker 1: spent you know, thirty two hours in this room with
Speaker 1: the client and two priests and watched them perform in exorcism.
Speaker 1: And that really warped my brain for a few years
Speaker 1: trying to rationalize it and understand what I had seen
Speaker 1: and what the experience could have and might might have been.
Speaker 1: That was that was really crazy in a spiritual sense,
Speaker 1: and so maybe kind of in a ghosty.
Speaker 2: Sense or.
Speaker 3: Weren't Was it successful?
Speaker 2: It was successful. It was very very strange. I mean
Speaker 2: it's not at all like you see in the movies.
Speaker 1: The client slept most of the time, but the client
Speaker 1: did do things like speak multiple languages that there's no
Speaker 1: way they probably could have known. They would manifest what
Speaker 1: looked like bruises and scrapes on their skin that would
Speaker 1: disappear within moments. The body would contort in various ways
Speaker 1: that I would think would break bone and you know,
Speaker 1: pop muscles out of joint and didn't. It was It
Speaker 1: was very strange. And then when it was over, you know,
Speaker 1: the client went to sleep and the priest said that's it,
Speaker 1: and it was done, and one priest and one assisting priest.
Speaker 3: And then where does the spirit go? Do they put
Speaker 3: it into something or they just let it go on
Speaker 3: this ether?
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: So I just actually had a conversation with a friend
Speaker 1: of mine about this recently, which was, you know, some
Speaker 1: of the things that don't get talked about or have
Speaker 1: become popular because of movies that are, you know, based
Speaker 1: around exorcisms and stuff. But when when a Catholic priest
Speaker 1: is doing an exorcism, they don't really expel the entity
Speaker 1: and send it back to Hell or get it out
Speaker 1: of the body or whatever. What they're doing is they're
Speaker 1: actually doing like a dissolution of evil, So it's just
Speaker 1: dissolving out of the person, so it doesn't really go anywhere.
Speaker 2: It just ceases to.
Speaker 1: Be okay, and then you know, I've seen some pretty
Speaker 1: crazy UFOs up in northern Michigan. There were some really
Speaker 1: fast moving, non traditional lights in the sky that seemed
Speaker 1: to be what people would say are and identified flying objects.
Speaker 3: And there structured on the actual craft or just lights.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: I saw in nineteen ninety three, I was actually working
Speaker 1: a midnight shift at a job and I went outside
Speaker 1: and saw a black triangle that was illuminated from underneath.
Speaker 1: It had almost like orange bubbles beneath it, and it
Speaker 1: was flying silently over the city. And at one point
Speaker 1: it was so strange because when I first looked at it,
Speaker 1: I thought it was someone was flying a kite. It
Speaker 1: was like three o'clock or four o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: I thought, who's flying a kite at three or four
Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, and then as it got a
Speaker 1: little further in front of me, I thought, oh, that's
Speaker 1: a weird flock of birds. And then right before it
Speaker 1: disappeared over the top of the buildings to my to
Speaker 1: my right, I thought to myself, Oh, that's that's a
Speaker 1: that's a that's a UFO.
Speaker 2: And then it was gone.
Speaker 1: And it was so strange that I was looking at
Speaker 1: this thing for a minute and a half and UFO
Speaker 1: was the last thing that I thought about when I
Speaker 1: saw it.
Speaker 4: It probably should be though, to be fair, you know,
Speaker 4: kind of eliminated everything else, right, Yeah, well, you know,
Speaker 4: when we were at Michigan Paracon together a few weeks
Speaker 4: ago or a month ago, whenever that was.
Speaker 2: I have a pretty.
Speaker 4: Elastic sense of time.
Speaker 2: It's hard to tell. Sometimes.
Speaker 4: You told this wonderful story about manifesting a sea monster
Speaker 4: of sorts, and I think it's so I don't know.
Speaker 4: I've been asking if you would mind telling that story,
Speaker 4: because number one, I think it shows that, you know,
Speaker 4: group thought is a pretty cool thing, and it's kind
Speaker 4: of interesting and the possibilities what may or may not
Speaker 4: come from it, especially when we're staring down, you know,
Speaker 4: the all of a strange gun pointed at our world today,
Speaker 4: that's all screwed up and everything. But also how when
Speaker 4: you do manifest the thing of your wishes, it may
Speaker 4: not be the form that you expect. Like I always say,
Speaker 4: we know, like when you make a wish because you
Speaker 4: see a shooting star and a wishbone in a turkey
Speaker 4: or something. I always wish for something I already have,
Speaker 4: because that way I know the wish is going to
Speaker 4: come true, and it just seems to be efficient that way.
Speaker 4: But whenever I've asked for something else, I always seem
Speaker 4: to get it. You know. If I pray for something,
Speaker 4: or if I sure want something and I meditate upon
Speaker 4: it in some sort of way, I always get it,
Speaker 4: but it's never the form I want. And I think
Speaker 4: your story kind of shows a nice example of that
Speaker 4: in a very humorous, awesome, lovely way.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I did a cruise with I didn't know if
Speaker 1: I had told her, Dana had told it. We went
Speaker 1: on a cruise. Amy Brune puts together these paranormal cruises,
Speaker 1: and she asked me if I could do something like
Speaker 1: can you can you do something for the guests after
Speaker 1: the speakers, you know, after we have dinner. And I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll put together like a group intension, a group experiment.
Speaker 1: And so we did this twice. We did it on
Speaker 1: two different cruises. But the first time I didn't really
Speaker 1: know what I wanted to do. I talked to some
Speaker 1: friends back in Detroit and who are occultists, and I said,
Speaker 1: you know, this is the idea that I have. Let's
Speaker 1: let's try and manifest a giant sea monster, some kind
Speaker 1: of love crafty and elder beast come out of the ocean,
Speaker 1: and we'll see what happens. And so I got all
Speaker 1: these people out on the deck of the ship and
Speaker 1: I've got them all kind of chanting, and they've got
Speaker 1: their hands over the water, and it's late at night.
Speaker 1: It must have been a sight to see so much fun.
Speaker 1: And the horizon that we were facing started to not
Speaker 1: be very viewable, and it looked as if there was
Speaker 1: a black cloud rolling in. And as soon as that
Speaker 1: happened and people noticed it, you know, everybody's eyes were
Speaker 1: open as we all noticed it, Like people stopped channing,
Speaker 1: they removed their hands. They started to get scared because
Speaker 1: it seemed like we were actually generating something that were
Speaker 1: something weird was about to happen. And I was telling
Speaker 1: people like, no, no, no, let's keep going, let's keep
Speaker 1: doing this, let's keep doing this. But people got nervous
Speaker 1: and started laughing, and some people got scared and walked
Speaker 1: away from the deck. And this thing that was coming
Speaker 1: toward us off the water, this black, kind of shapeless
Speaker 1: cloud coming toward us, just kind of dissipated and disappeared,
Speaker 1: and people were like, Oh, that's really weird, and I
Speaker 1: wish I could, you know, I was telling people, I
Speaker 1: wish we could have held on to it longer. And
Speaker 1: the next morning I wake up to the sound of
Speaker 1: fog horns and our ship, over the course of the
Speaker 1: night had gotten lost in the ocean, and there was
Speaker 1: a fog bank that had surrounded our ship, and they
Speaker 1: weren't allowing anybody out on the decks because you literally
Speaker 1: couldn't see off the side of the boat the fog
Speaker 1: was so thick. And we were I think sixty year
Speaker 1: seventy miles off course, and you know, those giant cruise
Speaker 1: ships are all run by computer like they're not supposed
Speaker 1: to go off course. And I really still kind of
Speaker 1: think to this day, like we manifested something like something
Speaker 1: happened to our boat and people on the ship were
Speaker 1: very scared, but we eventually got back on course. The
Speaker 1: thing that's really crazy is so that was we were
Speaker 1: that was a trip to Bermuda and when we had
Speaker 1: done that, we were actually just on the tip of
Speaker 1: the Bermuda Triangle too. So that was one of the
Speaker 1: things that I kind of wanted to do. And when
Speaker 1: we got back to shore a couple of days later.
Speaker 1: The day that we got back to shore, a boat
Speaker 1: actually came. They found a boat had risen from the
Speaker 1: bottom of the Bermuda Triangle while we were on our cruise.
Speaker 3: No, I love it. Yeah, John, Where can people follow
Speaker 3: you on social media or your web page? You got
Speaker 3: a book? I know you got a book you can
Speaker 3: let us know about.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I try to make it easy for everybody.
Speaker 1: So it's just Twitter, Instagram, facebo, book all that stuff
Speaker 1: is just my name, one word, John E. L. Tenny
Speaker 1: and then any book that you can find is probably
Speaker 1: on Amazon. I suggest if people, if any of that
Speaker 1: is too hard for people, they go to Google and
Speaker 1: they type my last name T E N N E
Speaker 1: Y into Google and then type the word weirdo after it,
Speaker 1: and then just follow wherever it leads.
Speaker 4: Awesome, awesome. Now aren't you doing a podcast right now too?
Speaker 4: Do you want to push that and you want to
Speaker 4: plug that?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 1: A podcast has nothing to do really with paranormal phenomenon
Speaker 1: unless it comes up.
Speaker 2: But I do it with my friend Jessica. It's called
Speaker 2: What's Up Weirdo?
Speaker 1: And I normally talk to her every single day, and
Speaker 1: so I decided during quarantine, I wasn't getting my fix
Speaker 1: of hearing weird bar conversation by going out and seeing people.
Speaker 1: So I told her, like, let's just record our phone
Speaker 1: calls and we'll put one a week out and people
Speaker 1: can just listen to two friends talking to each other
Speaker 1: and maybe they can find some camaraderie in that. So
Speaker 1: it's called What's Up Weirdo, And that website is What's
Speaker 1: Upweirdo dot com and it's available on all podcast platforms.
Speaker 4: Oh that's strange, just kind of how this podcast was born. Actually,
Speaker 4: so I was already talking to Bobo anyway. So John,
Speaker 4: thank you so much for coming on Bigfoot and beyond.
Speaker 4: Whenever you're not near, I miss you. I only get
Speaker 4: to see you once or twice a year, but man,
Speaker 4: what a pleasure to have you on. Thank you so much,
Speaker 4: John for setting a site some time for Bobo and I.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm going to try and put an event
Speaker 2: together for you and Bobo to come to Michigan.
Speaker 4: Oh I would love that, love that, Yeah, because you know,
Speaker 4: we're all we're on the Bigfoot circuit and you're on
Speaker 4: some other circuit and it's rare that our paths cross,
Speaker 4: but it is always a joy when it does.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I need you guys to come up and look
Speaker 1: at the swamp on my family's property that I just
Speaker 1: found out might have a squatch on it.
Speaker 2: Oh, I really love to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, mister Tanning, we appreciate you putting on your three
Speaker 3: P suit and getting on the air with us, even
Speaker 3: though it's audio only.
Speaker 7: Yeah, Boba and are usually naked, so not today. It's
Speaker 7: too cold, but it was Yeah that we appreciate it.
Speaker 7: I can't wait to see you again. You're an awesome dude.
Speaker 7: It a great guest. Thank you, No, thanks for having me, guys.
Speaker 1: It's honestly like a pleasure talking to fun weirdos and
Speaker 1: getting the chance to reconnect with you guys.
Speaker 2: So thank you.
Speaker 1: So much for doing this and even having the show.
Speaker 1: I love this show and just hearing you guys banter
Speaker 1: about strange stuff.
Speaker 3: Now that I know the definition of weird, I'm not
Speaker 3: offended at all.
Speaker 2: He finally came around, Bobes, You're a different kind of weirdo, Bubes.
Speaker 3: Thank you. Okay, folks, with that was another episode of
Speaker 3: Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo and our guest
Speaker 3: John E. L. Tenney. Thank you so much. We'll talk
Speaker 3: to you next weekend. Until then, keep it squatchy.
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond.
Speaker 4: If you liked what you heard, please rate and review
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