WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:04.200 For the first time, blockchains are going to have access 2 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:08.160 to fully verifiable, fully on chain AI agents. What if 3 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:11.560 there was a universal mechanism for staking and say I 4 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:14.240 can now run one hundred networks on top. 5 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:16.320 Of this, Do you think eth might end up being 6 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:19.879 a better treasury asset because of the naturally built in 7 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:23.559 staking component which generates ye If wall streets isn't hunt 8 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:26.000 for yield, this is the better avenue. 9 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:31.120 Absolutely. They want to minimize downside risks but still have upside. 10 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.479 This episode is brought to you by Treasure. Treasure makes 11 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:41.600 it beautifully crafted hardware wallets that make it easy for 12 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:45.200 you to safely store your cryptocurrencies. I'm a big believer 13 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:48.359 in self custody. I've been using hardware wallets for years 14 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:52.119 and Treasure was the pioneer of hardware wallets and they 15 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:55.240 started this journey in twenty thirteen. Their hardware wallets are 16 00:00:55.280 --> 00:00:58.880 open source and they support a variety of tokens from 17 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:01.640 Bitcoin to the top all coins and even new coins 18 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:04.640 such as black Rocks, Biddle and I'm personally a user 19 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.359 of the Treasure save five. It's a beautiful device and 20 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:11.480 easy to use, and Treasure offers a handholding service where 21 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:13.480 they can help you on board and set up your 22 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:16.879 device so you can speak directly to a Treasure representative 23 00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:19.799 who can hold your hand through the process. And if 24 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:23.120 you use the code thinking Crypto all one word, you 25 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:26.319 can get five percent off your purchase of a Treasure device. 26 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:28.719 So to learn more about Treasure and all their great 27 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:33.359 devices and services, visit the link in the description. Hey, folks, 28 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:36.439 welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, 29 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:39.319 and joining me is Siram Kannan, who is the founder 30 00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:42.560 and CEO of eigen Labs. Rem great to have you. 31 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:46.200 Really excited to be here and on the Thinking Podcast 32 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.680 with Tony executed to discuss all things and crypto. 33 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:53.840 Absolutely, and it's great timing because the SEC just recently 34 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.719 announced updates to how they're treating liquid staking tokens, and 35 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:00.680 Eigen Layer obviously doing a lot when it comes to 36 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:04.159 staking on ethereum and I'm really excited to dive into 37 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:06.359 the details. But let's kick it off with your background. 38 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:08.840 Tell us about where you're from and your professional background. 39 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:14.039 Absolutely, before I started iving four years back, I used 40 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:16.240 to be a professor at the University of Washington, Seattle, 41 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:20.240 where I ran the U w Blockchain Research Lab. I 42 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:25.639 got into crypto eighteen, like you know, transition, and before 43 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:30.960 that I used to work on genomics and AI, and 44 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:35.759 so I switched pretty hard from doing that into crypto. 45 00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:39.280 In fact, I had the opportunity to even write a 46 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:43.280 research paper with somebody who won the Nobel Price last year, 47 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:48.719 David Baker. So came from a very different genomics related 48 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:51.919 background and then like swerved heavy into crypto. I can 49 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:57.199 tell you why. But also before genomics and actually even 50 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:59.879 before bitcoin, actually I was working on peer to peer 51 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.919 wireless systems. How do you build like a wireless network 52 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:06.639 where you don't have a base station, you don't have 53 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:08.800 a Wi Fi access point, nothing, just do I just 54 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:12.080 stuck to each other and then create networks. So that 55 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:14.000 was what I was working on, and then I moved 56 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:16.639 from that to work on genomics and then at some 57 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:20.439 point discovered oh my god, bitcoin ethereum, these things are happening, 58 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.400 and so I switched back into that. So that's that's 59 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:25.479 a brief history of from my background. 60 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:30.680 And what led to founding eigen layer and you know, 61 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:34.439 building this technology and specifically on etheroereum of course. 62 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.360 Yeah, So what happened was in seventy twenty eighteen. First 63 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:45.240 I got interested in this idea that the blockchains can 64 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:49.800 solve coordination and trust problems, because you know, people coordinate 65 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:52.240 with each other when they can trust each other. But 66 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:54.759 if there was a system that didn't need you to 67 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:59.680 trust each other, that underwrights trust for all kinds of interactions, 68 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.520 then we can actually create way more human coordination. So 69 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:07.639 that became like my driving thesis, and as I was 70 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:11.199 looking at you know, initially what we did is we said, oh, 71 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.240 but for this technology to scale to coordination problems, not 72 00:04:15.599 --> 00:04:20.680 just off money or finance, but much more broadly. Right, 73 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:23.319 like trust is a kind of fundamental ingredient of all 74 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.759 of society, and so if you want to upgrade all 75 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:29.800 of that, we need much more expressive, much more programmable systems. 76 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.519 So you need to be able to write, for example, 77 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:37.399 an AI inference protocol which is on a decentralized network. 78 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:39.720 You need to write like a storage network which can 79 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.839 store patabytes of data on a decentilized network. You want 80 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:45.600 to do all these things. Existing blockchains are not meant 81 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:50.279 to have this level of programmability. Blockchains like Bitcoin and 82 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:55.000 etherium expanded the amount of programmability of bitcoin. Bitcoin came 83 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.040 up with this absolute breakthrough concept of you know, money 84 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:02.120 that is verifiable, only twenty one million coins, you own 85 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.079 your coin, right, But then Ethereum took it one step 86 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:08.079 further and said, hey, now on top of Ethereum, you 87 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:11.879 can write programs that live and run forever in the 88 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:15.120 way that you set them up without having to trust anybody. 89 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.959 And so anybody could come in and permissionlessly come and 90 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:21.800 innovate and create new programs. You don't have to trust 91 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:24.800 who they are, what their parents are, like, whether their 92 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:27.839 friends with JP Morgan or not. But on their own 93 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:29.920 individual basis you can say, oh, this is a good 94 00:05:29.959 --> 00:05:33.879 program that I actually want to invest, to trade with, 95 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:37.319 to be my counterparty, to hold my funds, whatever. And 96 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:40.439 so that's a really big deal that I saw. But 97 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:45.240 that still didn't have enough programmability to say I want 98 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.800 to start a new consensus protocol. I want to change 99 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:53.600 like you know, all the notes, run AI inference, or 100 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:58.480 like run some other gaming virtual machine to actually run 101 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.920 the network. It doesn't have that kind of program really, 102 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:03.600 the program really is still very limited when we think 103 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:06.920 of blockchains today. You know, in twenty seven when I 104 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:08.759 came and people said, oh, if we can build the 105 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:13.160 next Uber, next, Twitter, next, you know, Amazon on top 106 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:17.079 of this. But simply even today we are nowhere near 107 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:20.079 that we've got on like major milestones as a crypto 108 00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:25.680 community with coin's mainstream defis going mainstream now just getting started, 109 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:28.279 but the set of things you can actually build on 110 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:31.360 this goes much further. And so that's why Igen layer 111 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:35.240 igen in German for your own layer. Anybody should be 112 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:38.839 able to come and build your own layer, Like whatever 113 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:40.319 you have in your mind, you should be able to 114 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.360 express it and build that on top of Igen layer. 115 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:45.800 So that was the kind of core idea. And so 116 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:49.439 the thing we realized is as pretty much all of 117 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:53.360 crypto discovered proof of steak or steaking, which is the 118 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:56.600 idea that you put down your digital assets and then 119 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.839 promise that I'm going to run like the eat or 120 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:03.079 the sole network correctly. Right, Like, say you take these blockchains, 121 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:05.920 promise that you're going to run them correctly, but they 122 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.519 were still only for that one network, right, So you 123 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:12.360 steake Heath and then you run Ethereum, steak Soul and 124 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:16.399 you run Salana whatever other network. Right, But what if 125 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:20.959 there was a universal mechanism for staking steak heath or 126 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:24.439 whatever token and say I can now run one, two, three, four, five, six, 127 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.199 ound eight, one hundred networks on top of this. Then 128 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:30.959 anybody who wants to build a new network can think 129 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:34.160 of igen layer as like just like the cloud, I 130 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:36.600 just take my program and upload it to the cloud 131 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:39.439 and the cloud runs everything. Right. So now instead of 132 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:42.680 each person trying to build a whole new l one 133 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:46.720 or a decentralized community for every single project, they have 134 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.959 already you know, fifteen to eighteen billion dollars of steak on, 135 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.079 I can layer. They already have the two thousand operators 136 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:55.079 that exist all around the world. And then you just 137 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:57.680 press like you know, take your programs, send it to 138 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.360 this network. All the notes will now download and run, 139 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:04.199 whether it's gaming, whether it's AI, whether it's Mataurs, whatever, 140 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.920 the new one or the new uber, whatever you want. 141 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:09.560 And that gives you a level of control and program 142 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:12.439 believe that simply hasn't existed in crypto before. So that's 143 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:14.920 the whole idea of iron layer. Very interesting. 144 00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:17.519 So I want to make sure I wrap my head 145 00:08:17.560 --> 00:08:20.040 around this and also for the viewers and listeners. So 146 00:08:20.079 --> 00:08:22.560 you have etherm as a layer one is igen layer 147 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:27.079 layer two, and it's pulling the steake eth bringing the 148 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.720 security elements. And then if I'm uber, like you said, 149 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:33.240 building a layer three on top of eigen layer. 150 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.279 Yeah, I think the layer one, layer two, layer three 151 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:42.240 is like somewhat confusing terminology, so I avoid it. But 152 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:46.159 what is absolutely happening is iigen layer is a program 153 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:49.360 running on top of Etherium, right, so that's correct. So 154 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:51.440 you have ethereum, and then on top of Ethereum is 155 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:53.840 a smart contract, right, so that's the smart contract that 156 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:57.879 holds this whatever eighteen billion dollars of fund and so 157 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:02.919 that program basically says, lets anybody else to come and 158 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.639 create new networks. Right, so you can come in and 159 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.720 say I want a storage network on Angonler. And then 160 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:12.720 when you say that, that storage network itself doesn't require 161 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:15.120 all the eath notes to run your storage network. It's 162 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.080 basically people who have registered on Igonler, they go and 163 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:22.519 run it. And all that happens on Etherium is settlement, right, 164 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:26.000 And what does settlement mean. Settlement is, Hey, you said 165 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:28.200 you're going to run this network, and you ran it correctly, 166 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:30.600 so I'm going to pay you out. Or you said 167 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:33.120 you're going to run this network and you behave maliciously 168 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:36.159 either attack the network whatever thing. Therefore, I'm going to 169 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.279 slash you, which means take away your funds. That's the 170 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:44.519 only thing happening on etherium is settlement, either of payments 171 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:49.360 or off like these slashing conditions. So what that means 172 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.360 is now all these networks are not constrained by anything 173 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.080 related to etherium. Right, it doesn't matter what the ethereum 174 00:09:56.120 --> 00:10:01.440 conformation speed is, what the etherium data throughput is, computer programmability, restruction, 175 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.159 none of that matters. All that matters is you just 176 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.000 have the same group of stakers and operators, and that 177 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.399 settlement happens on ethereum. But now the set of things 178 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:13.759 you can build are actually much more complex than layer 179 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:18.000 one protocols because most people when they build another layer one, 180 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.360 they just take the existing code base and say, here 181 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:23.120 is just a clone of the same thing. Right in Cosmos, 182 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:24.759 there are lots of al ones. They're all just the 183 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.440 same thing, just running another instance of the same protocol. 184 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:32.159 Whereas an agon layer people build new and unique kinds 185 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:35.799 of networks because that's what So this is part of 186 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:40.480 our observation is people had to start a whole new 187 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:44.799 layer one ecosystem for every new idea and they just 188 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:47.679 fragment it into like, oh, this is file coin, file 189 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:51.039 coin storage, but that's all that it does. But is 190 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:53.799 it money? Is it like has the best wallet? Does 191 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.759 it have the best like defile. It's just like five 192 00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:00.600 hundred things to create to solve a layer one ecosystem. 193 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:03.759 So instead we said, don't worry about all that. Build 194 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.639 a new and productive service that grows the net market 195 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:09.840 gap of crypto itself. And so that's what people do 196 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:12.240 on top of Igon layer. But the layer one layer 197 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:14.639 two is kind of right, but we don't use that 198 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:18.200 terminology because it's confusing. This is specifically what happens. 199 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:21.519 So with the let's say we have Uber, we get Apple, 200 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:24.120 we get Amazon. A bunch of companies looking to build 201 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:28.919 on Eigen layer. Tell us about the freedom that they 202 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.679 would have. Do they have full autonomy to build what 203 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.279 they need to do, have the security, privacy and these things. 204 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.320 Yes. So one of the things we obsess about is 205 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:42.799 full programmability, which means you should be able to express 206 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.279 anything that you could do. If you build your own 207 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.000 new Layer one, you'd have exactly the same amount of 208 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.039 control on Igen layer, except you don't have to worry 209 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:55.440 about issuing your own new token. You can if you want. 210 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.279 In fact, igen layer allows not just taking EAT but 211 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:01.039 any token that you want. So you say, oh, I 212 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.840 don't want EAT to secure it or Egen to secure it, 213 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:06.320 I want my own token to secure it. Absolutely can 214 00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:10.399 do that. But you don't have to on day one 215 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.720 need that in order to just launch your network. You 216 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:16.000 can use you can use iagend these already there on 217 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.279 the network. There is people staking and running operators for this. 218 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:22.960 So when you come and deploy your service you can say, yes, 219 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:25.320 it's running, and then you build a certain amount of 220 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:28.879 market momentum before you launch a token or whatever other 221 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:32.080 things on top. So when somebody like Uber is coming 222 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:35.919 in or ideally a competitor to Uber, like Uber takes 223 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:38.360 right now like fifty five percent of the fees paid 224 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:41.960 to like taxi drivers, just like so unfair. In the 225 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.200 large scheme of things we in crypto space, we talk 226 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:49.960 about removing the intermediary, right, and there's no intermediary like this, 227 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.639 like taking food. I mean the guys like sweating driving 228 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:57.879 his car, and then like somebody comes and takes some 229 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:00.720 favors and I mean it's just a completely different magnitude 230 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.720 than even payments. People say Visa takes one two percent 231 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.840 or three percent, right, and this is somebody taking fifty 232 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:10.679 five percent. So when somebody else wants to come and 233 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:14.639 compete and build a competitor to Uber today, what happens 234 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:16.960 is you have to write like a competitor to Uber 235 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:20.840 on an etherium or a Solana smart contract, and it's 236 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.519 just not possible. It's completely impossible to do that because 237 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:25.799 Uber has you know, you have maps, you have like 238 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:29.919 data storage, you need like right matching at like you know, 239 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.960 speed of thought. Right, you can't wait, you don't want 240 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.360 to click and wait for like, you know, twelve minutes 241 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:37.759 for some finalization to happen. But that sell out of 242 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:40.799 programmability that you get on Agen layer is you can 243 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:46.919 actually do like a pretty high level of programmability. In fact, 244 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:48.919 what I didn't talk about earlier is we did this 245 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:54.039 recent umbrella branding called eigen Cloud. And so the idea 246 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:57.480 of Eigencloud is to say, hey, there is iigen layer 247 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:01.159 at the base which is providing shack security. Right. It 248 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.519 is a common security layer, and the security layer is 249 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:06.080 built on top of ethereum and it inherits you know, 250 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:11.120 some of the trust properties of ethereum itself, but the 251 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:15.399 layers are built on top. We built a layer called Igenda, 252 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.679 which is a data layer, so you can write data 253 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:21.159 to it at the highest throughput in all of crypto. 254 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:24.840 We just launched last week on main net an upgrade 255 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.840 which takes it to one hundred megabytes per second. It's 256 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.399 faster than so long, it's faster than anything else out there. 257 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.440 So that's a throughput layer. So now when you're building 258 00:14:34.480 --> 00:14:36.919 your applications, you don't have to worry about where do 259 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.399 I write or publish all my data for anybody to 260 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.279 access it. It's already there. It's called igen Da. It's 261 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:44.519 the fastest throughput in all of crypto. You can just 262 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:47.679 like write data to it. And then we're building another 263 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:52.159 service on top called I can Compute, where you basically say, oh, 264 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.080 run any computation. You don't need to worry about, like 265 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.320 how to build a decent lized network, basically abstracting more 266 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.399 and more components inside the IGON ecosystem and then saying 267 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.399 it take a kind of software package, give it to 268 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:06.519 I didn't compute. It will run everything. It'll put the 269 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:10.679 data on iigen Da, it'll do settlement on iron layer, 270 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:13.279 everything so you don't need to think through all these things, 271 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:15.960 just making it easier and easier for developers to build 272 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.679 these complex functions very interesting. 273 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:22.519 So Ethereum obviously has the first mover advantage as a 274 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:25.840 smart contract platform has the security hasn't had any downtime, 275 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:29.600 It's had incredible uptime compared to some competitors. So with 276 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.600 eigen Layer, you know, sitting on top of it, is 277 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:35.480 there any concern that eigen layer may have downtime or 278 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.159 is that all being. 279 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:42.799 Secured by eth easing question? So igen layer actually is 280 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.440 a smart contract round over tum. So there is like 281 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:48.519 as long as the theem is running, I can layer 282 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:53.440 itself will run, but your particular network may be secured 283 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.320 by some set of operators. Right there could be like 284 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:58.600 five operators, ten operator, one hundred operators stall there are 285 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:01.399 two thousand operators on igen layer. So depending on how 286 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.799 much you're willing to pay and how much you know 287 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.360 decentralization that you want, you can inherit that level of 288 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:11.720 decentralization for your protocol. But if you if for your 289 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.000 protocol built on top of Vining layer, you only had 290 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.200 one operator opt in, of course, if that operator goes 291 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:20.120 down then your service might go down. But one of 292 00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:23.679 the things that we have in addition to just decentralization 293 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.720 is strong economic incentives. When you write your protocol, you 294 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:30.480 could say, oh, it's just one operator, but they have 295 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:34.080 to put up one hundred million dollars of steak, and 296 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:36.919 if they go down, they're losing one million, two million, 297 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:39.759 ten million, one hundred million, and so that's going to 298 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:42.159 put a lot of pressure on them to make sure 299 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.600 they're keeping their job straight that it doesn't go down. 300 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.879 But this level of control, we hand it to the 301 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.639 protocols rather than we are ensuring that every operator is 302 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:54.879 going to be alive all the time or whatever. It's 303 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.679 up to you to decide as a protocol designer. It 304 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:01.000 goes back to programmability and control. Right, you can come 305 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:02.879 in and say I need five hundred operators, but you 306 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.960 have to pay five hundred x to fees of course, right, 307 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.480 but I need one operator, but I want them to 308 00:17:08.519 --> 00:17:10.680 put up one hundred million dollars of steak. That's up 309 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:13.279 to you. We have the operator backing. We have the 310 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.279 most you know, two thousand operators. We have the steak, 311 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:19.480 you know, eighteen billion dollars of steak for people to 312 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:22.480 operate as long as there is incentives in your protocol 313 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.200 to do it. It could be using your own new tokens, 314 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:28.799 the incentives could come from actual fees paid by people 315 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.279 writing this new uber. All of those things actually work. 316 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.160 That makes sense. You know you mentioned eighteen billion in 317 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.039 restake eth over eighteen I read there's going to be 318 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.079 some people watching listening who don't know what the hell 319 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.000 resteake means. Maybe you could break that down, what is 320 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:49.240 restaking and then who are the folks who are you know, 321 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:53.400 restaking their eth? And that number hitting eighteen billion etherium. 322 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:55.759 So you asked me earlier why we built on ethereum. 323 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:57.680 We looked at both bit coin and ittherium, of course, 324 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:00.640 the two biggest sources of trust and network in the world. 325 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.039 So obviously that's the tool that we looked at, and 326 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.039 we decided to build on ethereum for two reasons. One, 327 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.160 it's fully programmable, so any of the kind of slashing 328 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.640 or payments and all these things can be done much 329 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.119 easier on top of ethereum than on bitcoin. So the 330 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:19.319 programmability is number one. Number two, Etherium is a staking 331 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:23.240 network itself, right, So people stake in ethereum and then 332 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:26.799 keep the network running. And so this concept of restaking 333 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.359 people get confused. So what it is is something really simple. 334 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:35.319 When you're staking on Etherium protocol, what you're saying is, hey, 335 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:37.359 I'm locking up my eth and I'm going to run 336 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:40.400 the Etherium protocol correctly. When you come to eigenlayer, what 337 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.480 you do is you say a little bit more. You say, well, 338 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:46.480 I'm locking up my eath to run both the Etherium 339 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:50.680 protocol and the Uber protocol and the storage product. You 340 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:54.279 choose which other protocols you're opting into, so you as 341 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.359 a staker. You're a staker, So who's the customer type 342 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.039 is I'm already staking on Etherium? So I say, oh, 343 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:04.279 instead of just taking on ethereum and promising to run 344 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.960 the yath note software correctly, I'm going to promise to 345 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.200 run the eath note software and a set of things. 346 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.400 I choose, Well, how am I opting into those things? 347 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.359 I decide based on am I getting paid enough for 348 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:21.039 the risk I'm taking? Just like anywhere else, Right, So 349 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.240 you go and play in a DeFi protocol, you're basically saying, hey, 350 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.559 is the risk? Is the reward worth the risk that 351 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:31.559 I'm taking? But here the risk is somewhat containerized because 352 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.440 the risk is you just need to run the note correctly. 353 00:19:34.839 --> 00:19:38.160 Unlike in a DeFi or like a financial protocol, you 354 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:42.720 are underwriting financial risks which are very different. Right, this 355 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:46.920 is just operational risk. You just need to be not malicious, 356 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:50.480 don't attack the protocol, keep your uptime promises. You're not 357 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.480 going to lose your state. So it's a much lower 358 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:58.400 category of risk than pretty much anything existing outside. But 359 00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.720 because we have the scene in which hundreds of new 360 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:04.519 networks are being built, you can earn rewards from all 361 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:05.960 of them and stack your yield. 362 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.279 And are there institutions that are mainly resaking or is 363 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:11.400 it also retail? 364 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.440 How does it split up? Right? So when you're talking 365 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.440 about like a you know, eighteen billion dollars, you absolutely 366 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.400 need institutional grade like opt in otherwise you don't get 367 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:27.200 to these numbers. And so we have basically uh institutions, 368 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:32.160 whether it is like a coinbase, binance, okax, all these 369 00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:36.160 different kinds of like exchanges as well as custodians like 370 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:40.599 anchorage and you know bidgo and all these guys support restaking. 371 00:20:40.759 --> 00:20:42.839 And so what that does is when somebody comes and 372 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:46.119 deposits eat and wants to hold eat there, they say, oh, 373 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:48.240 I also want to restake on a can layer, right, 374 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:50.640 So that's like a level of service that they offer. 375 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:54.160 In addition to that, we have, like there is this 376 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:59.279 concept of liquid staking protocols or liquid staking tokens where 377 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:02.160 what they do is this, you go and deposit the 378 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.640 eat into that protocol, and the protocol says, We're going 379 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.359 to take care of steaking for you, and I'm going 380 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:10.400 to issue you a receipt token that you've deposited one 381 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:14.079 eat into the protocol and so I meant one. We 382 00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:18.240 have a protocol called Renzo. We have a protocol called 383 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.519 Ether five, which are building liquid staking on top of 384 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:23.920 igon layer. Because it's built on top of restaking, they 385 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:28.000 call themselves liquid restaking just a nuance, but it's basically 386 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.680 the same as liquid staking. And so what this does 387 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:35.480 is it basically steaks and promises that like, oh, will 388 00:21:35.480 --> 00:21:37.319 take care of all the abstract things for you. You 389 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:40.759 just deposit eat and then get this receipt token easy 390 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.279 eat eat or whatever. So that's the ecosystem. So lots 391 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.279 of retail people also participate in some of those protocols. 392 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:51.160 Since you mentioned liquid steaking, the sec recently came out 393 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:53.160 I think just this week. If I'm not mistaken, I 394 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:55.880 give you some clarity saying some of these protocols and 395 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:58.720 activities are not securities. What are your thoughts on that? 396 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:00.000 What does that mean for Eigenline. 397 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:05.240 It's a huge, huge thing that the SEC would come 398 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:09.119 out and say these kinds of things, because precisely this 399 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.519 time last year they'd actually go after anybody who's doing 400 00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:16.759 anything in this space. And it's kind of surreal to 401 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:20.440