Speaker 1: What is up, Fellows, Tikos, I am Dan Valley, coming
at you with the one, the only, the certified pantabulus.
Mister Grant Hughes, it's award season again. It's really always
a ward season, but this is our halfway mark check in.
We committed to doing it for installments this year. I
still think we're gonna end up doing it in three.
But given the degree of difficulty I found doing this
a second time this year, well third if you count preseason,
we might need a third one just to kind of
get our bearings about us before our final picks, but
before we dive in and talk about criteria problem areas
in the actual awards themselves. Mister Hughes, how the heck
are you doing?
Speaker 2: I'm feeling conflicted. This was really hard. We talked about
it before we started recording, and it's my fault, as
you said, because I suggested we do this again at
the arbitrary sort of arbitrary midseason point. Some teams have
played forty one games. Clock's ticket. It can't be mid
season if we wait another week. So this had to happen.
Like it's good that it's hard, I think, just because
we'll have ample room for discussion and like, how do
we how do you justify yourself?
Speaker 1: Sir?
Speaker 2: I feel like that'll be said pretty I.
Speaker 1: I think I would love these I still do love
these exercises, and I love talking to you about it.
But stuff that can be controversial when we're not meaning
it to be controversial, it's I like having the talk.
The research can be the the feeling is tedious because
I'm so worried about pissing people off. But the discussion
would be more fun if I knew that this one
wasn't gonna invariably lead us to be like, well, hey,
this is why Kevin Durant sucks. Basically sure too, people
were gonna interpret anything we say that way like, oh
you left freaking I don't know, like Mamu off the
All Defense team, even though that.
Speaker 2: Would be like made mine, I don't know what your
problem is.
Speaker 1: So that's what I love these discussions, but I hate
sometimes my approach to them is just like I don't
want to anger anyone, but we're invariably people are gonna disagree,
and not all of them are going to be civil
or just like they're just gonna dismiss it as like
we're being assholes or we're just wrong, and you know,
I hate those types of responses.
Speaker 2: I think you should embrace the truth that there's no
way for you to do this without getting that reaction
like there's not a perfect ballot that doesn't have that
doesn't incurund.
Speaker 1: And then you get the people who are like, well
you said this last time, we're oh, how about this,
You didn't have him on your team first time, And
it's well, do you want me to be stubborn if
I have more information or do you want me to
be flexible based off what we've seen and research? So
I hate that element of it too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to stop talking to people. I think
maybe that's the issue.
Speaker 1: I don't. I gotta stop checking the comments or responding
yes the good comments I did before we dig in,
dig in, and we'll talk about any approach we need
to as we get to the individual awards. Just some
notable players who cannot be selected for most of these
awards now. As a reminder, all Rookie, six Man of
the Year and Rookie of the Year are not encumbered
by that sixty five game threshold, but notable ineligible players
right now Franz Wagner Pallo, Benkaro, Lukanacic, Joel embiid Chet Holmgren, Kawhi, Leonard,
Isaiah Hart and Stein just in case anyone wanted him
for all defense. And I believe John Morant is there
or about to be there as we're recording this, closing
in on ineligibility, and I find this funny. I don't
think he would have made it. Jimmy Butler cannot miss
another game this season and otherwise he will be ineligible.
LaMelo Ball has missed eleven games, Kyrie has missed ten,
Kevin Durant has missed eleven, Derek Lively's missed eleven, but
we just got worried he's gonna be out two to
three months more. So he just you know, you could
pick him now, but he can't be picked. Tarry Easton
fifteen games missed, and Jalen Suggs eleven games missed. Here's
an interesting one, and I thought about it. For most
improved player, I can't quite get there yet. Trey Murphy's
at sixteen games missed.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and.
Speaker 1: So if he sticks there or if he only misses
another game the rest of the way, you know, I
was struggling with most improved players, so I may not
hesitate to just fire at will there if he missed
the criteria this time. Next time we record.
Speaker 2: It's a good way to say, like, hey, I was
paying attention, like I knew Trey Murphy was good, but
that I needed to like throw him a bone now
before he becomes ineligible.
Speaker 1: I honestly thought he was already ineligible, right.
Speaker 2: It seemed like that was a huge storyline, him missing
the start of the season, and that surprises Yeah, it
surprises me.
Speaker 1: That it felt like a decade and that must be
what it is. It's like, we missed sixteen games, but
it felt like.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, but they somehow lost twenty four of those
sixteen games. It was weird. I don't know how they
managed to lose that many.
Speaker 1: Look, they're on a roll right now that has store comeback.
Looky playoff? Should we talk about Pelvis? Let's get Let's
get to the awards. Let's start with the least controversial
award out there, the MVP race. For anyone watching our YouTube,
our ballots are up on screen. We go five deep
for MVP and then three deep for every other singular award,
just because that's how the ballot actually works. Do you
want to start artists off here?
Speaker 2: Grant? Sure, Yeah, so I have. I mean, we're essentially
in lockstep well for the first two, which frankly is
like where we could just have ninety nine percent of
this discussion.
Speaker 1: Can you start the back of the ballot, because we're
it's a two man race right now. If I had
to pick, maybe, I mean my third guy would probably
be the person that I think could party crash.
Speaker 2: It a little bit, but I don't think the party
is getting crashed, so any my fifth place MVP is
Jalen Brunson, Yannis at four, Tatum at three, sg A two,
Jokic one, and uh the well I have. We haven't
done all NBA yet. My fifth All NBA spot is
not Jalen Brunson. It's gonna be Wemby a little different,
but I don't have a great justification for it other
than hey, our MVP ballots are different, so that's more interesting.
Speaker 1: We're trying to drum up controversy.
Speaker 2: Right yeah, uh so what what do you have?
Speaker 1: So my ballot is I have Wemby at number five,
Tatum at four, Yannis at three, Shay at two, and
you'll won the Wemby stuff for me, and this will
apply to all NBA. I know the Spurs of it
a little bit of a rut patch, but according to
b Ball Index and not catch all metrics aren't everything,
but the average teammate on the Spurs ranks him the
twenty seven percent tile of Lebron. And yet when Wemby's
on the court, the Spurs net rating is still in
the seventieth percent tile. And now we're entering territories like,
all right, that's the Timberwolves with Anthony Edwards, and I
think we can all agree that the Timberwolves supporting cast
in a vacuum has more talent than the Spurs. And
so for him to do that lifting the becoming a
high volume, borderline dead eye three point shooter. This there
is no ceiling. The passing has gotten, but there is
no ceiling for him. So that was became easier than
I thought it was gonna be to where I'm kind
of thinking him, Oh, what would it take for him
to use the Tatum and Giannis? I think Giannis is
ahead of Tatum right now. We've seen some slides with Boston,
but Giannis's defense look after the first I don't know
ten to fourteen games that he played, maybe it wasn't great.
I actually thought about him for all defense this time around,
where I think we mentioned the first time, Oh, he
wasn't gonna make that. So that was the differentiator for me.
John is his numbers are more video game like, which
is the the lift he gives you on defense is
way heavier. And then Tatum, I still think he just
remains underappreciated as a total offensive package, and so he's
an easy top five inclusion for me.
Speaker 2: Just to just to sort of touch on the me
having Brunson, you having Wemby. Wemby was like basically on
my that was one of well the toughest decisions at
the top to me, But that one was tricky. I
think I was just ultimately swayed by watching the fair
amount of Nicks lately, and it's just like everything the
Knicks do is so hard and it all depends on
Brunson shouldering this load that's just like unfathomable, like nothing
works without him. Maybe I'm catching the wrong games, but
some of the numbers bear that out too. Just hit
like his lift is so heavy, and you could argue
that Wemby's based on the numbers you sided too. It's
like really like low key heavy too, and we just
don't it doesn't look the same as Brunson, who's getting
doubled and just like held off the constantly and is
just like working his ass off. So I was a
little bit swayed by that. I have no issue with
with with Wenby beating him out for that.
Speaker 1: Can I Actually I want to ask you a question.
I think there are a lot of people that would
say Carl Anthony Towns has been more valuable to the
Knicks than Jalen Brunson. And what do you make of that?
Speaker 2: I think if you're just purely looking at the like
scoring efficiency, and you know, Kat's rebounding is incredible in
the stretch, like Cat's great, He's gonna be on both
of our all NBA teams somewhere down the line. But
I just think that Brunson, like take Cat off, and yeah,
you lose a huge element of the Knicks, you know,
offensive identity, but Brunson sort of is the offense. It's
like the downgrade from Brunson to anyone else you put
out there, if it's campaign or you have mckel bridges
handle the ball, it's just like Brunson sort of is
the Knicks like to an extent that, like, you know,
it's hard to think of another player who so singularly
like holds the fate of his team in his hands
in a way that I think is sort of under
scored or emphasized by the fact that the Knicks are
really good and the Spurs aren't. And so that's like
a little bit of a distinction. Again, I'm not knocking
Wimby at all. I just think the whole plan falls
apart without Brunson, and I don't feel like that's true
of Kat, especially since like Cat's a bad defender at
the most important defensive position, Brunson's a bad defender at one.
That's like, well, we can deal with that.
Speaker 1: I think that's the right call. And I would say
that what Towns is doing is incredible and he's unlocked
an element of the Knicks offense and it's allowed them
to navigate Jalen Brunson's slumps and Jalen Brunson's stints on
the bench better than they have since Sjalen Brunson has
been there. But there's a difference between doing that and
just being the guy. I'm not just saying every night,
but against the best lineups, like every team's best players,
and as you laid it out at the top, and
so I think, if anything, it's more of a testament
to what Towns is doing this year. But I really
do think that I don't want to say it's not close.
I would listen to debates for it, and I've seen
some compelling cases written. But I think that in terms
of value, you want to talk about individual season and numbers,
like you said, sure, in terms of value, I think
that Jalen Brunson still just has a noticeable edge there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about the one too. Here. I struggled.
I went with Jokic. I struggled a lot with it.
Can I try an argument on you that like ultimately
got me there to put Jokic first over SGA, and
you tell me you can poke holes in it or
tell me if you agree or whatever. Go ahead.
Speaker 1: My only thing is I don't really listen to you
when you talk, So no, please go ahead. I'm exact, Okay,
So the Jokic is just just to start with a number.
The Nuggets are like a one to twenty four offensive
rating with Yokic on, They're horrendous without him. The Thunder
are about a one to twenty offensive rating with SGA
on that's a pretty big difference, but it and it
favors Jokic, But that's like not the be all end
all for me, because you can find plenty of catch
all metrics that just say SGA is having the better season,
which basically is like been impossible. Only Embiid has really
like threatened Jokic for the top of a lot of
catchalls lately in past MVP races.
Speaker 2: So I thought about it in these terms, I think
you could call it a wash in terms of like
scoring efficiency between the two of them, it's close enough.
I think you have to concede Jokic is the better
passer because nobody's a better passer than him, obviously a
better rebounder. It helps to be Jokic's size, and defensively,
we can agree that SGA is a better defensive guard
than Jokic is a defensive center. But center is the
most important defensive position on the floor, and SGA is
pretty frequently like the fourth or fifth best defender among
the players he's on the court with. And just again
like he's not typically like your point of attack guy.
He's kind of hanging out getting steels. Great steals matter.
They're not like we go back and forth on how
overrated or underrated they are. I think he's a very
good defender, albeit one that's not like challenged lot. Jokic
is constantly challenged. He fails a fair amount, but like
a center on defense matters a ton, So ultimately it's
just like there's not really anything if you consider like
the value of positional defense that I think SGA has
like a massive advantage in. And I do think there
are a couple areas where clearly Jokic is better. But
having said that, like this was a decision I made
like today, you know, after thinking about it for a while,
I don't I'm so open to anyone that's just like
it's SGA and you can just say that without a
lot of statistical support, and I'd be like, yeah, I
could see why you think that. So does any of
that sway you one way or the other.
Speaker 1: I already had Jokic, so of course it's it's what
made the.
Speaker 2: Decision for you, Then maybe that's the better question.
Speaker 1: I really just look at it one. It's more of
a nutshell argument of you but in totality, Nikola Jokic
has a heavier workload when you combine both ends of
the floor than Shay Gilch Alexander does. And the fact
that you can say that even though shea a lot
of people talked about him as an all defense candidate,
which I think it's fine. Defensive playmaking is valuable. The
bigger differentiator for me is the nuggets. They're crescendoing around Yokic,
like maybe they found something with Let's see what happens
if Aaron Gordon stops coming off the bench, but they
could stagger their lineups accordingly, and russ is having a
renaissance there. We're getting better moments from the youngsters. The
quality of talent around Nikole Jokic is just worse. And
I'm not gonna even just talk about net rating swing here.
It's he has to do more in totality because the
team around him is worse and I don't want to
Penali Shay Gilds Alexander having better talent around him. And
by the way, they're missing I mean, I say, Hardinsein's
missed a bunch of time, Alex Caruso's missed time. Their
center rotation has been it's never been fully healthy. And
then chet holmgrin, of course, no worse than their third
most important player on this team is gone. I think
that's a very compelling argument for Shay, as is the
fact that the Thunder just might win sixty eight seventy
games at a time when we think the league is
more valuable than ever. I'm still swayed by like the
okamis under out scoring opponents by eighteen points per one
hundred posessions. With Shay on the court, it's fourteen or
fourteen in change for the Nuggets there was eighteen and
change for the Thunder. The fact that Jogic gets the
Nuggets with that town around him to that level to
where it's within you could say, breathing distance. When we're like, yes,
it's a bigger number, but when you're looking at the percentiles,
like the fact that he can bring this Nuggets team there,
that still sways me here and it would be different.
I think if I thought that, I mean, really, I
find the two most compelling cases I find for Shay.
I guess three is Shay is fucking fantastic. There's one,
but two. He is so indispensable to a Thunder offense
that has all this talent, you kind of look there
and say, holy crap, Like the fact that they are
flirting around like top seven in point score per possession
that is because of say, the minutes of out Shay
on the court have by and large been an unmitigated
offensive disaster, the closest the thunder of come to anything sustainable,
and it's been in a small sample. Go watch some
of the When I say Hartenstein's healthy, the iHeart and
j Dubman, it's able to figure out things there. It
would be different for me if Jokic was just this
total zero on the defensive end. But when you look
at the defense of rebounding and then you combine that
with the scoring numbers are comparable this year, and he
still shoulders a heavier playmaking burden. So I do think
I'm trying not to discredit Shay here. I do officially believe,
and I'll be curious to see where we are, like
if the Nuggets continue this track to where, oh, the
talent around Yokic is so much worse, doesn't hold as
much weight. Because it doesn't hold as much weight as
it did at the quarter season mark. I'll say that
right now, there's a chance one of us will pick Shay,
But I do think we've officially entered the territory of
either or. And if you're simplifying this down to the
thunder or better, Shay is the best player on that team.
I think that's fine if you want to go that way,
but like, at least hear out what we're saying when
other people are saying you can disagree. I think this
season on the selection, this is not a consensus MVP pick.
Speaker 2: And I'm totally with you, Like I this could have
been different today had I come across some other stat
that I didn't see that would you know, tip the scales,
And it might very well be different in the next
time we do this, which is great, Like this is
awesome to have to have two such like how different
these two guys are and we have to try to
compare them to each other. It's not the same as
like Yokic embiid like that was you know, okay, we
get it, like we can you know, similar position. It's
it's apples to apples in some sense. This is like
apples to I don't know, like wrenches or like it's
not it's not even they're so different anyway, that's that's
a good MVP talk.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to ask you because we're making We
should have laid this out at the beginning, but people
who've listened to this before not like we're making our picks.
We're not trying to predict anything here. I want to
ask you, if the season ended right now, though, what
do you think the voting would say.
Speaker 2: SGA would get it? Like it's something like a landslide,
right the betting odds are like he's he's minus something
and he's the only one that like Jokic is not.
Speaker 1: Is and which I don't factor. I try not to
look at Oh Jokic has three in someone else's turn.
I hope. I've never thought that way in the past,
but I'm a total hypocrites, so who knows, but I do.
I do agree with you that I think Shay will
win the award and I'm not gonna up might pick
my as of right now is Yokic. I'm not fighting
anybody who votes for Shay.
Speaker 2: We have some version of this discussion, or we have
had it since Yokic has you know, been a one
and two time and now three time MVP, Like if
he hadn't won one yet. This is a really different discussion.
I think, you know what I mean, if we hadn't
gotten used to this, because his numbers are insane except
not for him. So it's just kind of like we
really do take it for granted with him in a way.
I think that does hurt him and hopefully you and
I aren't doing that, which which based on having him first,
we're not.
Speaker 1: I mean, look what I was thinking. It was like
the fact that Shae is shooting sixty percent on twos,
which is like almost it's a point and a half
higher basically than Yokic when you look at some of
the two. I mean, Jokic takes wild twos as well,
but just you think bigger guy being able to back
like so some of the work that Shay has to
put into his own. This is just it's a I
think it's in all as of right now, it seems
like an all time.
Speaker 2: Close one two MBP Yeah, I think so too.
Speaker 1: My all NBA teams are up next, and no surprise,
even though there was a difference for me last time,
I have my same My first team is my MVP
ballot yo Ki, Shay, Tatum, Jannis Wenby, so Grant won't
have any questions their second team. I have Brunson, Evan Mobley,
Donovan Mitchell, Steph Curry, Jaron Jackson Junior. My third team
is Anthony Edwards, Anthony Davis, Domas Sabonis, Karl Anthony Towns,
Darius Garland. My toughest cut ended up. We were talking beforehand.
It probably ended up being Ky Cunningham for me, but
I did heavily consider Jada, Pascal Siakam, Kevin Durant. I
I'm looking at this. I think most people will be
caught off guard by the Steph Curry of it all.
The Warriors are a really good basketball team with him
on the court still, which is just honestly miraculous. When
you look at the trajectory of their season. The numbers
are still bonkers. Evan Mobley, I actually think is the
most valuable player on the Cavs this year was like
him and Brunson and Mitchell. Mitchell was not easy second
team inclusion. The debate between him and Darius Garland rages on.
Jared Jackson Junior has been the Grizzlies best player this year.
The offensive growth continues and he belongs in the DPOI
conversation non wemby division, of course, I before I throw
it to you to see if there's anything that stands
out for you. I really do think that Demntese Bonus
is having like one of the most underappreciated seasons in
NBA history. And I say that as someone who didn't
have him on the All Star Game when we did
our picks a couple of weeks ago. If I was
to do it now, I'd probably bounce shanng Gun or
someone there. But we're talking twenty one points, shooting forty
eight point four percent from three, which leads the league.
Lower volume, but two point four temphs per game is
close to her career high. Basically sixty three percent on
two's leads the league, and rebounds per game, averaging over
six assists per game. The true shooting is the number
that I look at. It's just like Pops sees it
sixty seven to four and was around seventy for a while,
and the numbers when he has played like as the
lone star or with two stars on the court versus
when you mix and match it with the Rosen and
d' aaron Fox, It's really not even close at this point,
and so I find myself when you watch the Kings
a lot of the time, and I think you look
at the archetypes, I'd be inclined to say that the
Aaron Fox is the better, more important player, but this season,
I don't know how you look at these numbers and
how you like Sibonis. I also think there's been value
in We've had concern we had concerns about the pecking
order of the Kings offense, and some of that's coming
to bear out when you look at Kegan Murray even
a little bit of maligue Monk. But like Sabonis is
kind of just figuring it out and might have had
like the easiest time adjusting is as everyone and like
he is being used like somewhat differently. So he's having
a fantastic year. And I went into this just kind
of thinking to myself like I was gonna have to
find a way to get him on the third team,
and that ended up with some tough cuts. But I
think he has I'll say this a stronger second team case,
then let's bound him from all NBA entire.
Speaker 2: Oh man, that makes me feel terrible because I I did.
I had similar thoughts where it's like at some point
the numbers are just you cannot ignore them, Like I
didn't know. I knew the three point volume was up.
I knew he was over forty percent, I didn't realize
it was forty eight percent.
Speaker 1: It's just like two and a half at times per
game though what you're wide wide open.
Speaker 2: It's still like the scouting report is like fire away, please,
because that means you're not doing some elbow hub stuff
or putting guys in the basket underneath. But still like
I don't know, and just the points, rebounds, assists of
it all in the scoring efficiency and like he does
now much of this has to do with how bad
the King's backup gigs are, but he grades out real
well in a lot of defensive catchalls that factor in,
like on off stuff. So I still think that's mostly
a mirage. I think I think he still is what
he is defensively, which is to say, like kind of
a problem if you're trying to win high level games.
But yeah, I feel really bad. I have him kind
of on my my unofficial fourth team, and that's just
because you know, fortunately, I guess fortunately there's a one
or two third teamers that I have that are probably
going to be ineligible and then I'll be able to
like move him up. Kate is kind of in that
same boat for me. I don't really have any knocks here.
I think one clear difference that that jumps out is
You've got Mitchell's second team and as a second calve there.
I also have two calves on the second team. But
my by the way, our first teams are the same.
And I explained kind of the logical incongruity of me
having Brunson fifth and MVP and on a second team.
But whatever did you struggle? I mean, you said the
Garland Mitchell debate rages on what what landed you on
Mitchell as a second teamer over Garland.
Speaker 1: We kind of went through this when we did the
All Star stuff. Is I think that Darius Garland is
more is well, way more important to driving offense for
and better maybe not way better, but better at driving
offense for everybody else, and a comparable score at this point,
even though they're used in different ways. But Donovan Mitchell
Darius gron will I think take on tougher assignments on defense.
Mitchell's just been better in his defensive role than Garland.
And I think the thing that finally sold it for me.
And this would be the case if you know, I
would say that I think mobile is the most valuable calve.
If you want to say Mitchell's the most valuable calve,
I think the strongest argument would be when you're on
offense and the other team is going to zero win
on somebody, it is always going to be Donovan Mitchell
when you have the full cast on the floor.
Speaker 2: I actually agree with that. And yet I have Garland's
second team and Mitchell third get which I guess says
that I'm looking more at like this season's production as
opposed to what I think we both like in your
head and your heart know, like Mitchell's the guy right
of Garland and Mitchell, Like Mitchell is the guy that's
going to be taking the biggest shots, that is the
bigger focal point of defensive game planning, like that kind
of thing. I just you know, Garland's been a more
efficient scorer, he's a better facilitator this year, and so
like I just had to reward him there. I don't
really have any like knocks or quibbles at all.
Speaker 1: You're making this Steph, because I know you do have
him on a team, but I have him second team,
and I think I think some people might think that
you're I might be waiting stats too heavily when I
say this, was like, look at what the Warriors offense
is with and without him. But I still think, aside
from Nikola Jokic, I don't know that there's anyone who
can elevate not even just elevate the ceiling, but define
it regardless of the context of who's around him, Like
there's Jokic and then there's Steph Curry. Still for me,
because you just look at the talent around him in
terms of yeah, okay with gravity, no one really there's
very few players that have it. And then if they do,
if you're gonna go with a buddy heel like, well,
how inconsistent are they? And then when you just kind
of look at the second like the surrounding, the playmaking
or just the shot making in general. This is per
b Ball Index, Steph's teammates rank in eight percent tile
of overall shot making ability as just and the fact
that okay, he's on the court, not only a they
winning those minutes, I think they're like a plus. It's
actually dropped it was like a plus eight for the
longest time. But the Warriors are Warriors ing or whatever.
There's still a plus four point four with him on
the court with an offense in the eighty like a
one nineteen offense rating, and it's that's the eighty fourth percentile.
I just can't And this isn't even oh and he's old. No,
it's like, look at who is like who is the
most about who's the second best offensive player on the.
Speaker 2: Warriors, Jonathan Kaminga and he's not playing.
Speaker 1: You know what, before he got injured, he was having
one of his like moments in streets. That's like the
gap between Steph Curry and the Warrior's second best offensive player.
Where is it larger? Is it? Would you say it's
even yo, kitchen Murray might not even be as large.
Speaker 2: No, I think that's that's a great point. And I
think kind of ironically, as as I'm thinking about it,
some of what recommends Steph, which is that the numbers
you're talking about and like, you know, as on an
individual basis like hyper efficient, forget like the impact he
has on a just a trash you know, supporting cast.
I think like and so all that's still great, and
the degree of difficulty is off the charts, Like the
way that he's being defended is different than he's ever
been defended before because teams can get away with it,
like they can just sell out beyond the most egregious
sellout you've ever seen to try to stop him, and
he still finds crevice's and he still gets up impossible
shots and makes enough of him. I think what I'm
focused on is just like how hard it looks for him,
and maybe that's not fair. So I have him on
the third team, and like, I think if I were
to switch anything, having talked about it now, I'd probably
go so I have Anthony Davis as a second teamer,
I might swap Davis and Steph on that logic is
just like he's still great despite it never being harder
from a like tactical standpoint and the fact that he's
as old as he is and is able to hold up.
So like, yeah, I'll leave it as it is. But
I think that's again, I think there's a great case
for him to be a second teamer. I don't I
don't have an issue at all. So my first team
we're the same. Jokic SGA Tatum, Jannis Wemby second team.
We both also have Brunson Mobley, Jaron Jackson Junior. Jackson
Junior was like never had a chance of falling the
third team for me, Like he was just I couldn't
put him on first because that that top five guys
are just a different level that he was like just
an absolute lock with Brunston and Mobile as a second teamer.
Speaker 1: He is. I have a fun Jaron Jackson Junior stat
he is twelfth and this is all among anyone who's
played at least a thousand minutes this year. Twelfth in
points per one hundred points per seventy five possessions above expectation,
which speaks to just the way he's scoring in the
role that he has this year. And look his efficiency
is dipped and I still just like don't care.
Speaker 2: His You watch him play and like the drives are
just undenied, like the way that Memphis spaces the floor.
As I think about it more, it almost seems like
this this donkey offense they play that like basically never
screens is almost like built to say, like Jaron Jackson
Junior as a driver is gonna be maybe the second
most important facet of our offense, and the most important
when John Moran's not playing, which happens a lot, and
his ability to just get to like six feet and
hit weird like floaty push half hook shots at rates
that are just that's what you're probably talking about. I
hadn't heard the points per seventy expected points per seventy five.
It's like he takes and makes a lot of really
hard in between shots, and I mean I've seen him
be able to hit like turnaround hooks over either shoulder
this year. I just he's a really good offensive player
and like, by the way, is going to be on
our all our dpo wy ballots very high too, so
easy picks there. I went with Garland over Mitchell. As
I said, I got Anthony Davis as a second teamer
over stuff, which I feel not great about right now,
but whatever small distinction. The rest of my third team,
I do have Mitchell there, I have Anthony Edwards. I
have Kyrie Irving. That's a guy that's gonna fall off
and maybe that's how I get Sabonus in there after
Kyrie presumably falls below the game's threshold, and then KAT
was an easy third team or KAT was going to
be on one of these no matter what. He just
I ran out of spots and he ended up with
my I guess technically my last third team spot.
Speaker 1: The you know, Kyrie Irving was another tough cut for me.
But the minutes with him and then without Luca went
from kind of peachy Keene to they've started to turn
and when part of the theory of his value is that.
And I know he missed time with the back stuff,
but that's also part of this. So I have a
question for you about we both had Anthony Edwards third Team.
I've seen him be included everywhere from first team to
not even on the All NBA list, and I know
there's just that variability kicked in. Where are you sort
of at with this season he's having and his overarching value?
Speaker 2: Of course, kind of two controlling thoughts, One which we've
talked about for a lot of the season is like,
it's incredible the type of score that he's become and
maybe has had to become for this particular Wolves team.
The three point volume still making well over forty percent,
his shot died at least as a perimeter shooter is hard.
So that's like, that's beyond impressive, and then it's just
the offense is what it is. He's the best offensive
player on the team, and the offense isn't good generally speaking,
So like what are we you know? So I guess
the answer would be he was way closer to falling
off the top my third team than he was to
like even sniffing first team, maybe second, I guess, But
I think I think I fall more in the camp
of like the bottom line just sort of is what
it is, and he's the best offensive player on a
team whose offense isn't very good. That's an oversimplification because
it's hard to have a good offense with Rudy Gobert
and Julius Randall ball stopping and Mike Conley, you know,
have the Knights where he just can't play.
Speaker 1: That it's even above average with Anthony Edwards on the court, right.
Speaker 2: It's hard to know which way that cuts. I think,
like in an ideal situation with spacing and where he's
still more of a driver like second or who knows
what we'd be talking about with him, But it's kind
of a you know, we don't have like a control
to the experiment to know what it would look like
if you weren't in these particular circumstances. Do you want
to talk about like a toughest so missions, guys, just
you know, we're maybe you had on a team and
then had to cut or any like real like you know,
trouble spots.
Speaker 1: I want to get out in front of this. And
we both didn't have him, yeah, or either of them.
I guess you could say not having Kevin Durant feels
weird when you look at the numbers and even when
you watch him and he still just hits these stupid
and I will tweet out the clips because I will
come away just mesmerized by the shots he's hitting and
the efficiency at which he can hit them. He's been
complicit in the Suns is three point to tenth rate
plummeting over the past couple months, and like he wasn't
the one who jacked up his three point volume in
net as some like the other guys did or the
team at large. And the more I watch the Suns,
the more, even on the nights when Devin Booker is
not as efficient, I'm just like, well, Devin Booker is
their best player and I can't bring myself to put
him on this on one of these teams because he
had a rough what like six or eight weeks of
the season, which is still pretty big chunk of the
season thus far. Why do I feel compelled to put
in Kevin Durant, who has missed time and who I
just think I would need to see numbers on this.
And I know he still draws a ton of double teams,
Like what is the value? Like how many of those? Like, okay,
they might end in some tough buckets being made, but
like what is his assist rate on those double teams?
What's the turnover rate? And here I am diminishing Kevin
Durant's value When the Suns have been as upside down
as they are, they're losing their big three minutes, and
so I just kind of rid it off, wrote it
off as that. And also just the more I watch
the Suns, you will not convince me with any numbers
right now that Kevin Durant is a more valuable player
than Devin Booker. And if I don't feel strongly compelled,
and by the way, I probably said something different during
our quarter season, I might have had Kevin Durant on
second team. I think that's what I did.
Speaker 2: I think we both had him on a team.
Speaker 1: For sure, I did because he he's been so great.
But now I'm starting to question the context under which
which it's coming. And look, if you say that stupid
blatant Suns, then they're they're twisting everybody into a pretzel,
right down to their to their pick swap, like trading
picks for multiple picks and swapping those picks with the
least favorable swaps of the most favorable swaps from the
team that has fewer swaps than then with a little
bit more least favorable bull picks to send out. So
that was the leaving Kevin durantoff felt wrong and including
him felt wrong. And maybe that's a microcosm of the
twenty two Phoenix Suns.
Speaker 2: That's how you end up on the fourth, the unofficial
fourth team. So the other guy, I think that we
probably gotta discuss. I already talked about Sibonis. He was
a really tough omission here, and I guess relatedly, dearon Fox.
I just think the efficiency is dipped enough and the
Kings just aren't good enough for us to really even
think about two guys. Kid Cunningham didn't make either of
our teams and I have watching him lately. It's like
that guy feels like an All NBA player, uh the
like still around, like fifty four to fifty five true shooting,
which is not just not good enough, still a heavy lift,
still just you know, just such a complete offensive player,
which is weird to say, as I just said, he's
fifty four to fifty five true shooting. But like, I
don't know, I feel bad. I don't. It doesn't sit
well with me that we didn't get him on there.
But then it just becomes a question of who are
you taken offense? And that I guess maybe for me
it'd be like Kyrie, I guess which he will fall off.
That was a tough one for me. I'm sure you
felt the same way because you've been You were in
on kid, like I think a little sooner than I
was this year.
Speaker 1: Right, and I initially because we do talk, but anyone
who thinks that research doesn't go into this, and we're
just gonna so Grant and I will spend hours doing
research and then we kind of confer beforehand while we're
finishing up the graphics. I had cad over Anthony Davis
and just I was trying to make a case myself,
and I was, I know, Davis on offense is not
the Davis we saw to start the season. But where
would the Lakers like be without what he does on defense?
And they're not even a great defensive team. That's with
Anthony Davis, I think, still being a great defensive player.
I couldn't get there. So yeah, he was there. You've
I mean, like both the Pacers stars, right, Siakham was
a tougher cut for me in like totality, just because
he's had the better wire wire season, But like Tyre's
Haliburton just looks the past what like two months or so,
like Tyre's Haliburton.
Speaker 2: Yeah there is there's there's our guy. He came back good.
See that was tough. Yeah, both those guys were. I
actually had Siakam I think on a third team in
like an early draft of this, and I just I
just kept thinking, like I just moved him down and
down and down and he fell off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, answer for your sin, your cardinal sin? Where is
where's Jalen Williams?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think it's just the scoring efficiency.
It's a shooting under thirty four percent from three now
and and as it's just like it's an indivisible part
of the Jalen Williams discussion. Is just like he isn't
able to be the lead offensive guy when SGA is
off the floor. We you know, despite being very very
good at literally everything that you want an NBA basketball
player to be good at. That's a pretty. That's a pretty.
And again, Jalens is great, Like he's a really good player,
Like he's the second best player on a team that
might you know, if if they go nuts, are going
to threaten the all time wins record. Like that's that's
that's a true statement. It's just the scoring efficiency is down.
He's he doesn't do the one thing you really do
need him to do for a few minutes a game
for this team, not to say he won't ever do that.
Still obviously young enough to get there. It was just
a numbers game and and the offense wasn't what it
needed to be to get him on this team. And
I think we're maybe also being a little farther away
from the holy shit, he's playing center on defense stretch
of the season, which was like a real defining thing
for him, and maybe we're going to get back to
that a little more, but but still that that's kind
of where I landed. I mean, you did you didn't
you have him on a team last time we did this, I.
Speaker 1: Had him on second team. The offensive efficiency has fallen off.
I think he's the defense has been I think he's
gotten better defensively. And that's by the way, he's still
among what did I have the filter on players with
five hundred minutes? I just doesn't feel right even to
having I mean, we know I don't want any games,
but even having watched the Thunder, among everyone who's play
at least five hundred minutes, he's second in percentage of
shots at the rim contested. And that's just like that
feels wrong. J Waimes is what six ' six, Yeah,
I be sure, So I just don't he's been great.
But the offensive efficiency in the minutes, like if you're
talking about I mean, like we're just talking about digging
Shay for his efficiency and it's Jalen Williams has an
easier offensive role than shake gilges Alexander and like the
three point clip, like that kind of dipping in the
I don't want to say the inability, but like the
swing piece for him, because if I had to pick
right now, I still think Jay dub makes multiple NBA
teams over the course of his career.
Speaker 2: Agree, but the swing if.
Speaker 1: He is never the guy that can run the offense
independent of I'm not even saying like needs to be
the one, like the best offensive player on a really
good team, but can lead the offense when the best
offensive player on your team is off the court, that is.
And look, those minutes were better last year, which was
another thing that I was kind of thinking about. So
maybe some of it's a symptom of the personnel that's
around him this year and the way they're being run.
But he another time. I mean, I would love for there.
I don't necessarily need a fourth All NBA team, but
I think the league is deep enough that it'd be
great if we had it, and that I would also
like a third All defense team. Totally unrelated to this discussion, but.
Speaker 2: So well, we're gonna do one.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do Defensive Player of the Year. Now though,
Grant you want to take well, I'll take us through
this because your All defense teams will come up first.
We have the same ballots. I'll just take us through
both of ours. Wenby at one Evan Mobley at two,
Jaron Jackson Junior at three? Is there an argument against
Wenby at one?
Speaker 2: Not that I'm really willing to listen to. I think
like you could say you could I guess you could
cite like, well, there are players who allow a lower
field goal percentage at the rim, and there's you know,
there's I guess you could put cases together. But I
just if you've watched if you've watched five Spurs games
this year, just say five, you are not open to
the argument that there's a better defensive player on the
planet there.
Speaker 1: And it's not to say that he's the most intelligible defender.
A lot of what he's smart by the way I
think he's when you look at some of the passes
he's making this year, Like the Q is there, but
like the physical tools and knowing how to use them,
and the fact that he still can test so many
shots around the room even though he's like flying around
all over the place, and look a lot of the
like if you go by dumpson threes is defensive EPM,
Like he's not even gonna rank in the top five
of actual I'm looking at there's they have a projected
tab but I'm looking at the actuals right now. According
to that, I'm not even looking at it's open. But
Alex Caruso would be defensive player that if you're going
off that followed by a AA Hartenstein and then.
Speaker 2: I believe the bonus is not very low on the
l The bonus is up there on that list. So
trust the trust the DPM at your own risk.
Speaker 1: Look, defense is just like you need to watch C
to at least have an opinion here, and even I
mean I don't watch or C, but I just I can't.
I don't know what the case is against him. If
you want to look at it and say, oh, the
Spurs aren't like a top ten defensive team overall. They
rate in the seventy eight percentile of defense when he's
on the court. That's high enough when you're looking at like,
all right, he's playing with like their some DYD like
Julian Champenny and you have Jeremy Sohan and Steph Castle.
But like Steph Castle is a rookie. It's just he
has the counting stats and he passes the eye test.
For me, he has the advanced metrics. Even if he's
not gonna lead in a lot of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then after I mean, I think Mobley is
to me, well, it's not as locked in as Wemby
is at one, but I didn't. I just felt like
it was such a clear one, two, three, and I
mobile his mobility, his his the way he can get
in a stance and guard you know, one to four,
just obviously five, but like his perimeter defense is just
all I can do. When I watch the Cavs is think, like, man,
that's gonna work in the playoffs. That's gonna wreck a
lot of teams plans. If you're trying to you know,
you're gonna have to really work hard to get the
right switches and the right two guys involved in picking
and pick and roll in handoff actions because if Mobley's
in it, like that play is not going anywhere. And
he just his versatility, his added strength. We talk about
it mostly in terms of what he's doing offensively. His
strength is like, now you don't really move him the
way that I think you used to be able to
with with physicality, So like he really I think he
might be a I like the idea of like you know,
there's weakness free like offensive players. He's kind of a
weakness free defensive player. I don't know what the like,
what do you do against Mobili? That's like, well, this
will this is the way we can make it work.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying he will wind up having the
better body of defensive work than Yannis, but the thing
that distinguishes him to me, aside from you, the Bucks
have even like in past years Yannis at center was
a last resort, is like, he can do the helper stuff,
but if you need him to just go check that
one guy, it's not what you want him to do,
but he can also do that. And this is just
it's it's I guess it's he's kind of like Giannis
and bam Adabaio combined. Is that.
Speaker 2: That's except he can shoot threes, which neither of those
as ever, did I not did you factor that into
this discussion?
Speaker 1: Uh and and Jared Jackson Junior just spectacularly Grizzli is
still the only team is real corded this by the way,
in the top five of offensive defense. And honestly, you
can watch the Grizzlies that is inexplicable when you look
at the talent on their roster and the concerns maybe
not so much on defense, but about their offense and
every like. I hope everyone's checked out the Ben Taylor
video by now, but even knowing what they're doing, it's
just it's inexplicable.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: He's been great though, and he's I do think it's
help that they've been able to put him, I feel like,
in a more idealistic role for him this year. But
he's just been the folkrum of what is one of
the five best defenses in the league and the Grizzlies
have what are the Cavs at in defense right now?
And checks him in, But the Grizzlies have the best
defense of anyone on this list too, So that would
be the other thing you have. That and the fact
that Jared Jackson Junior is someone who is going to
make that team, like the fifth best defense in the
league better when he's on the court. I mean, like
there's a real testament to that. So I it's do
you I don't lament this yet.
Speaker 2: Do you think we'll get.
Speaker 1: To a point where Wemby's just gonna rack up so
many almost unchallenged Defensive Player of the Year awards that
you'll kind of regret, like, oh, now we're getting excited
about the number two number three debate.
Speaker 2: Probably, or it's like, should we have just given Mobili
one now because he's this is his last chance.
Speaker 1: Two years ago?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you're ahead of the curve. Yeah. I think
it's you know, it's not like a hot take. Wemby's
just gonna lock this down for a really long time
if he's healthy. So sorry, sorry, everybody else.
Speaker 1: You want to take us three year all defense squads?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so got the top three guys there, Uh, Wemby
mobiley triple J. So I was I've made a couple
of changes from last time, and really it's pretty obvious.
I just skewed bigger. I just skewed towards centers, and
so I have Rudy Gobert and it beats the Zubats
on my on my first team. Go Beart hasn't been
as good as he was before, but he was Defensive
Player of the Year last year. So if he's the
fourth or fifth best defensive player, that's still pretty good.
Even if he's regressed a little bit. The room protection
still is great defensive rebounding. Similar case for Zubots and Zubots.
To distinguish him a little bit is just like we
gotta give somebody credit for this Clippers thing, and like
he's just been he's been really underrated this year. I
think you could make a case he's had a lot
of offensive growth too, sort of by like necessity. But
the Clips defense like really does center around him. They
have good point of attack defenders. Chris Done is I
think gonna be on both of our second teams. Maybe
I forget what you did with him on yours.
Speaker 1: That's a fact. I don't know. I think Chris Dunn
is better and I didn't have zoobots in one of
my all defense teams. But I think you can also
make the case that he might be more important of
the Clippers defense when you're just looking at the minutes
played and their lack of alternative as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very true, very true. Yeah, Like if you're talking
about replacement values, like there's not another Chris Dunn approximation
on that team. I just I the more I think
about it, the more it's like it's the centers just
matter more. Center's like are a team's defense. You know
when we talk, you can hide bad point of attack defenders,
you can stick guys in the corner, but it's just
like the game changing defenders just are with some exceptions.
We'll talk about them with unless you're like insanely disruptive
or or you're like a Tony Allen level, like I
will just make it impossible for a wing to score.
It's just I'm gonna go center. So that's a little bit.
I just kind of had a philosophical kind of I
got it. I just had to make that decision. So
that's first team, second team. As I mentioned Chris Donn,
Anthony Davis, Dyson Daniels, which is that kind of like
just insanely disruptive wing slash guard that I was talking about,
still got Jada there. That was before you even cited
that ridiculous shots contested inside stat And I'm n Thompson
another just like the game wrecker kind of mold as
a wing. So anything anything there you wanted to talk about,
or anything significantly different from yours.
Speaker 1: Why I'm and Thompson over Dylan Brooks.
Speaker 2: I think I think Thompson is more disruptive. I think
I've probably just seen him completely eliminate guys at the one, two,
and three in ways that Brooks I don't think has
this year. I think like Lo like low key Brooks
is like I think Brooks is like a negative wingspan
guy or like pretty close to it, whereas Thompson's just
can reach everything. It's probably more. I think there probably
are numbers that like Brooks a little better. I think
Thompson's just the athleticism, the length, the versatility, the way
that he blows plays up, like whether he's coming from
a help position or on the ball. It she feels different,
like I think being guarded. Being guarded by either of
those guys sucks. But with Brooks it's because like he's
gonna hold you and he's gonna, you know, be ultra physical.
With Thompson, it's like you're like being guarded by a
three headed like King Kobra or something where it's just
like anywhere you go, he's just gonna just put He's
defensive poison. I don't know. I'm struggling with the analogy.
Speaker 1: I think I think that's fair. I'll throw mine up
because I have both of the Rockets on my teams.
But my first team is eerily sim well not really.
We have Wemby, Evan Mobley, Jarre Jackson Junior, my three
DPOY candidates. Then I have Lou Dort, who I think
is in the realm of I just I still feel
like the job that he's told to do, whereas you
just have to go check that best perimeter player for
the most part, is what Dylan Brooks does in Houston,
even and I know part of that might have been
skewed by Okay Amen Thompson was coming off the bench
for so long, but I mean that's also like the
minutes between Amen Thompson and Dylan Brooks. For me, they've
now that gap is closed. They're within Like I think
Ammen Thoms like one hundred and fifty minutes fewer or
whatever than Brooks. But I think Brooks's job is harder.
I think Dort, independent of one of the bigs who
neither room has played enough to get consideration here, just
has the hardest job on the Thunder, and I think
it goes overlooked because by having that job and he
does it better I think than Klay Thompson did. It
does take away from the counting stats that a lot
for him to be, like if you want him to
be disruptive, Like, no, I'm not saying he could be
Dyson Daniels, who I also have my first team, by
the way, because Dyson Daniels is equal parts. Okay, he
has the counting stats and disruptive and oh that dude
is just defending like the best players on the court
all the time as well every night you and you
had him first team last time, I didn't. I think
I've seen a lot of the Hawks over this last
quarter of the season, and they're my team where if
I was running them, i'd do something stupid because I
think that there's something there at the trade the line
as well. So those are my I just Dyson Daniels
for me, like, if he's gonna shoulder that type of
responsibility while still being disruptive, he's going to be in
my second team. Bam Adebayo, Anthony Davis, Dylan Brooks, am
And Thompson and Chris Dunn of EACHA. Zubots Jalen Williams
were both very tough cuts for me. And this is
the second time I think I said of Viata Zubots
is a very tough cut for me. So I might
just need to, you know, adult up and put him
on one of these teams. That's why I really want
a third team. But I do think that if you
asked me to pick a Rockets player. Maybe this is
different by season's end, like if Jabari Smith comes back
and Aman Thompson is still I just still think that
Dylan Brooks has been the more valuable defender for Houston.
But they're both. I mean, Jabar Smith Junior is missing time,
Tarry Eastan's missing time, and the defense just doesn't miss
a beat because of these two guys.
Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, it's funny with the Rockets, like this is
part of like why Shingoon might get some all. You
gave him an All Star consideration, I had him kind
of like I didn't put him on an All NBA team,
but I thought about it. It's like, I don't know,
he's been a big part of that defense too, but
like so is Brooks, so is Thompson. There's just so
is Tarry Easton. There's so many guys that's like we
gotta the credit is being like split so, I mean,
which is a great problem to have and why their
defense is so so devastating.
Speaker 1: Suggs is also a tough cut. By the way, I'm
wondering if when not so much with Easton just because
the minutes weren't there. I do wonder if there's a
bias creeping in when I'm looking about players that seem
like they're gonna lose their ineligibility, and so like, I
know Tari Easton fifteen games miss, he's not gonna be eligible,
and then Joe and Suggs kind of he's at eleven
right now, and it's right, well, how much time is
he actually gonna wind up missing? Had Derek Lively played
more or not been about to miss? I mean, I
know you only missed eleven games as of now, but
you had him on your All defense team last year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna ask you about Antonobe because he
didn't make either of our teams. He was like a
tough cut for me, certainly reputationally and certainly like practically speaking. They're,
like I think you said, like in a postseason setting,
like there's not a lot of guys you'd rather have
on your team defensively than him. So I'm curious how
come he didn't make the cut for you he.
Speaker 1: Made second team last time. For me, I just he's
been gambling a little too much, and maybe it's because
the Knicks are worse around him than the Raptors. Well,
the defensive talent. I mean when you look at some
of the talent he had around him in Toronto and
then the talent that was around him last year, that
gambling doesn't fly with the current personnel, and I think
that that might have tinged me a bit against it.
Speaker 2: So there's yeah, yeah, I think.
Speaker 1: You could argue though that is there a because it's
that's this is an indictment of how teams are built.
But I think you can argue, like you pull Og
Andobi off the Knicks and are they just the worst
defense in the league.
Speaker 2: Right mcause suddenly mckel bridges has to be your like
point of attack guy and like helping like jump passing
lane steel for Steele's wing and he can't guard centers
like Og can. If you need him like that's yeah,
they would be in big trouble without him for sure.
Generally speaking, don't gamble if Kat is your back line defender, honestly,
don't gamble.
Speaker 1: If you also have Jaalen Brunson on your team as well,
probably he's not gonna be on the back line much,
but still so yeah, he's I have also the thing
I struggled with, and it happens, so I only had
the Rockets doubling up here is I find myself inclined
to like want to spread the love where it's okay,
I recognize this team, Like should I have included ogn
and Obi over Aman Thompson or Dylan Brooks just like
he's represented in here, or like and did that creep
into my logic a little bit with the Thunder, because
I do think Jay Dubb has a really strong case
to make all defense I did you did not have
lou Dort though at all?
Speaker 2: No I would I was just looking at Ears. I
would have had Dort ahead of Brooks for example, and
probably out of bio. But like the Thunder, a little
bit that way too is a little bit of a
Houston problem, Like imagine, well, first of all, if Chet
were playing, he would have been on the first team.
If like, if Chet had played enough, I think that
would have been a pretty easy one for me. I
would have bumped Zubots or Gobert and then you know,
Jadab good defender SGA. We talked about a little bit Pruso.
Speaker 1: When he's healthy, they could have had like if no
one let's just say no one missed the games or
everyone was going to play at least sixty five games.
The list of players for the Thunder that you could
probably make a reasonable case for Caruso, Dort, j Dubb, Holmgren,
Hart Andstein is five. I think some people would say
you got to add Sga to that list, or hi Jathan
Wallace to that list.
Speaker 2: I think they could have had four of my ten
first and second team spots if they were if everybody
was healthy, that team is fucking nuts.
Speaker 1: H we move on to I don't even know what
award is next. I already forgot Rookie of the Year,
which is yours to take us through?
Speaker 2: All right, so I have I mean, this is guess what, guys,
The draft class was not great. This is a weird
rookie season. I got Jalen Well's first, good job, number
thirty nine, pick Zach Edy second, good job Memphis Grizzlies.
You got two of the year two for two, and
then I have Steph Castle third. I still think of
those three, Steph Castle is someone that has like pretty
clearly the highest ceiling. The scoring efficiency just isn't good enough.
And uh it's that maybe that's just where you stop.
The scoring efficiency is not good enough. I think he's
really just has shown so many flashes as a defender,
as a driver, as a passer, like pretty smart the combo.
I think I've said this before of his athleticism and
like willingness to pass and ability to pass is real scary.
Like if he ever is a player that defenses have
to close out on, he's like, man, like, that's going
to be trouble. So he's third here, But I do
I just acknowledge. You can tell me whether you agree
that if you had to bet on you know, the
next five years, of any of these guys we have
on our list, you'd probably pick him.
Speaker 1: Ah, I'm like, I'm jailing Wells pilled. I'm not gonna lie,
like you give me the guy who they've had him
defend some bigs. In addition is covering like these tough
perimeter assignments on a team that again is top five
in defense, and he's hitting three. So he was my
one You're probably right with just in terms of swinging, Yeah,
it would be step.
Speaker 2: I guess like Castle's upsides higher and I'm not sure
he's gonna hit it. Wells is just gonna be a
starter like forever. I guess the.
Speaker 1: So I have Steph Castle too, and I still have
McCain at three and one, the game's minimum don't apply.
And then when I was digging into it, he's played
five as we're recording this, he's played five fewer minutes
than Zach Edy at this point, and so I was
considering Zach Edey, I'm like, I'm overthinking this. Jared McCain
can still technically he could still be here when we
do this at the end of the year, but now specifically,
I think he could still be there. Just what he
was doing on offense was bonkers. Yeah, for Steph Castle
to be as good defensively too as you are as
a rookie having it's a big deal. That coupled with
the volume of his role. I do think for me,
if you wanted Steph Castle to win, the difficulty of
Jalen Wells's role on defense, I think it exceeds the
difficulty of Steph Castle's role at either end of the four.
So that's the differential, just like the like he can
shoot threes, and yes, his role simpler, but I really
like Steph Castle is strong, he can get to the rim,
like he's one of the better guys at creating like
shots at the rim, like the efficiency from everywhere just
basically needs to get better. And look, he's still there's
like I guess some hesitants on his threes, but like
he's been taking them for the most part all year,
and if it ever starts to go down, like even
just a set jumper, that becomes a really big deal.
And I do like the lane navigation from him already.
The all rookie teams I have on mine, Jalen Wells,
Steph Castle, and McCain are on first team. Those are
my all rookie bellot then Zach Edy of course, who's
just so there's the defensive aspect component of what he does,
but then there's also kind of oh he's shooting okay
from three on, like he's taking what like thirty four
threes or something on this he's in. I don't hate it.
Speaker 2: I kind of wish it's under just under forty percent,
Like last time I looked it up and it's the
volume isn't enough. But it's like, if if that's a
thing we got, that gets pretty interesting.
Speaker 1: Of the first team, and I guess maybe sars creeping
in here, but like he has if you're talking Wells
and Castle and Edie who has the most offensive utility
right now of the three? Oh, is it just tackle
because of the ball handling, But Edie might have a case.
Speaker 2: I think it might actually be like Wells is just
the plug and play, like he's gonna make enough threes
and you know, be low usage. But Edi Edi, you
really can't. Like there are just matchups where he's just
too big and you can just throw it in. He's
gonna score. He's he can roll and just be taller
than everyone like that, and then if you get any
kind of threes, it's kind of like it's it's I mean,
brook Lopez was a really good like post technician, so
it's not quite the same because Edie is just kind
of forceful. But it's like you get both versions of
brook Lopez in Zach Edy, Like you get the pre
three point shooting and the post if things go right
for him. So pretty interesting thing to think about.
Speaker 1: And then I have star on my first team. I
don't even think he did not make my second team
last time. And so like a few things account for this.
Since the last time that we did this exercise, Alex
Sars looked way better on offense. He is shooting thirty
seven point five percent on threes on five attempts per game.
He's shooting over seventy five percent in the restricted area.
And I think he's done a better job as a
passer in the sense of just getting off the ball
more quickly and finding teammates who are on the move
or looking ahead in transition. And at some point, like
you have to weight the volume of his role, and
he is also again the Wizards aren't good defensively, but
you can see the hot take. You could see like
the outline of a good defensive player in Sar. And
I mentioned before how j Dubb is second in the
percentage of shots contested at the rim this season him
five hundred minutes. Alex Sar is first. And so while
the numbers still may not be great, like you'd like
him to save more points at the rim or have
a lower percentage allowed, basically that role as a rookie
to show is just so huge, and so I'm not
when we get to like these All League teams, I
do try to go with outstanding rather than a look
at how many minutes they played, But like he's doubled
up the minutes basically that Zach Edi has played. Right now,
and so just the offensive growth that he has shown.
I still don't know what he's gonna be as someone
with a floor game. Can he hit the MIDI but
I think you have to be encouraged if you're a
Wizard's fan based off witsar as done. And then my
second team e's mecI, Zach Resiche, Donovan Klingen, who's fifth
Grant in points saved at the rim for seventy five
possessions this year. I question whether he'll end up playing
enough to ultimately make this team. I think he has.
If he's available enough, he might have a top three
Rookie of the Year. Case still have bub Carrington. I
flirted with including him or Tristan da Silva here, and
then I have Ryan Dunn. You can no longer say
that he's contributing to a good team, but to be
like to actualize the three and D role. Even if
the efficiency has slid, the stuff he's doing on defense
as a rookie is impressive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's he's on a better team than three
of the other four players on your second team, so
it still counts for or something.
Speaker 1: Who before we get in some tough cuts, who's on
your all rookie teams.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so wells ed Castle. Obviously I did put me
Ci on the first team, and that it was tough
between him, like I could have just the right answer
still probably is McCain. But I just am kind of
like anticipating, you know, his season's over. It's like I
think as recently as a couple of weeks ago, he
was still like fifth in rookie scoring and like second
in MAD three. Just like he's gonna be top ten
in a bunch of counting stats despite missing three quarters
of the year.
Speaker 1: And don't you get, like I said before, you have
Edie on your first team who's played five minutes more than.
Speaker 2: Right, It's like, so clearly my criteria is kind of
just like pricing in Yeah, maybe that's not fair at all, actually.
Speaker 1: But it's price Like I think it's if McCain's.
Speaker 2: Done, Edie's gonna play, however, many more games. So yeah,
I had MESI there just quietly has been like if
you told the Pelicans, hey, this is what you're gonna
get from me C as a starting center this year
for the season, they'd be like, oh, we're gonna win
fifty seven games, like because everything else will go great
right like that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did consider him for first team. I just
wish he did a little bit more of the traditional
big man stuff on defense. But I'm pretty limited for
a rookie on the on the Pelicans of all teams
right now.
Speaker 2: But yeah, not exactly the most stable, consistent environment, not
always supported by the most surrounding talent. So I also
had Sar first team. I think I had him like
on an unofficial fourth team last time around. And are
you prepared for some really trenchant, like incisive analysis that
you've never heard before about? Are you ready? Dan? I
think the game is slowing down for him. WHOA have
you ever heard anybody say that?
Speaker 1: How do you feel about his feel?
Speaker 2: I think I think he's a he's starting to see
the pictures. What else? What else do they always say,
like you've seen enough pictures now to where he just
I had the exact same reaction you did watching them
a little more, even in like short stints against the
Lakers on What's Today on Tuesday Night, Like I think
it compared to the first quarter of the season, where
he was like lost and you're like, I can't even
see a way to this guy being impactful other than
maybe he'll block shots. The three point shooting is a
real thing. It seems like he's so much smoother, so
much more like just I guess confident going to the
basket like he looks. I can see it now, like
I get it, And I really wonder what we would
think of him if we hadn't gone into this draft
being told over and over and over again that there's
just not a guy in this draft, you know, because
you could see the outlines right now of someone that's like, yeah,
that's a top five pick in almost any draft. Like
I'm not saying he'll get to that level, but I
can understand now like what this might look like in
a few years. And it's pretty encouraging on both ends, honestly,
which is like a shock based on how ugly things
were early. So he's the last first teamer for me.
McCain and I stuck on the second team Reesache Carrington
kling in, so we have the same second The only
difference is I have mecI first team and McCain second
between our two teams. As on my second.
Speaker 1: Team, there's other names that I'm sure, but well, I'm
actually looking at the docs. I know both of us
considered Osogadaro. Ron Holland is second creeping in there sixty
two percent shooting onto Tristan da Silva made your team
last time, Honora will mention. Right now, I think collel
Ware Keishawn Georges. The AJ Mitchell injury is a real
bummer because it was just kind of another dude, where's
like they really draft this. He's on a two way.
He's defending like this is he gonna make it All
Rookie team and then a name to keep an eye
on because now they need him to play and he's
back from injury and he's been on kind of a heater.
Rob Dillingham like, if we do this again, like at
the three quarters mark, he might just be All Rookie
first Team at that point.
Speaker 2: I know it's anecdotal, but but now that he's back
in the stretches I've seen him play, it's like undeniable
that he unlocks like parts of the Wolves offense that
just just don't get like touched on unless he's out there.
He really like just being quick, just being able to
smoke his guy off the dribble is just like nobody does.
No one on the whole team does that he like
he really does have there is like utility for this guy.
I so just stay healthy because I do I agree.
I think there's a great chance that he just is
impactful enough to climb into this group.
Speaker 1: Did you think, like, did you consider we had Dalton
Connect I think on a team last time Jamal shd
his shooting is picked up from three. He's a name
that I considered. Uh Tjan Salon Man, I'm just looking.
That's just been such a rough go in Charlotte.
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do with him. I think
they like seem to think he's just going to be
a three point shooter or maybe that's the only thing
that like you stand over there and like that for
now I think is it's it's not a great situation.
Speaker 1: Cody Williams was not considered again, and that's a real
bummer for my preseason takes.
Speaker 2: I mean, he he had like one great G League
game shortly after that demotion and then continues to just win.
Just he's like not out there.
Speaker 1: Need to him to the thunder and then him and Ja.
Speaker 2: That's what it's all long con That's what this has
been about.
Speaker 1: Next up for us, most in Proof player, This one's mine.
So I have normOn Powell number one. He's been I
think I told you before. I think I get caught
up in trying to figure out what's the proper way
to view this award, And I just think we're always
kind of looking for like the really good player that
made the leap to stardom. But I'm almost more impressed
by someone who is a decade or whatever into their
career and then is doing this and like the Norman
Powell is scoring is way up. The efficiency is still there,
doing more as a driver, more as a self creator,
a little bit more as a passer. This is crazy, though, Grant,
among everyone who's locked at least one thousand minutes, Powell
has the second largest increase in true usage, and true
usage incorporates passing and scoring as well as potential assists,
and he has the fourth grant largest increase in self
created shop making. That's like, I understand, that's a function
of what they've needed out of him this year. That's
kind of the point where it's not that you've been
in the league for this many years. You're coming in
and you're doing that. So I had him, and then
you know, I struggled with the back of my ballot
Evan Mobley at second. He's just better in every single aspect.
And I know people don't like looking at these Some
people don't like looking at the big names and saying
it's them. I did think about putting Kate Cunningham number three,
but the more I watched the Pistons, I think he's
gotten better as a defender and a rebounder, and there's
like some of the offensive field's gotten better. To me,
I look at it and say, the Pistons had negative
spacing and now they don't. And this is what Kate
Cunningham would have been already. That's not a shot at
him if you did include him. I just went with
Julian Champenny. That's not supposed to be the I know
ball pick. It's just even really good when you look
at what he's doing defensively and kind of typifying like
the three and D stuff for them, and he's just
way better, Like his role is way high volume. So
I kind of I tried to run the I won't
even say I tried because you basically allowed me to
just put CHAMPENNI at the bottom. It was I'm gonna
pick the guy who's well into his career that's made
a jump, the young player who's making the leap into
patmans stardom. Yeah, and then this sort of guy with
a limited track record who's burst onto the scene. And
so I tried to cover every single spectrum.
Speaker 2: You forgot. The only other type you could include is
just throw Jalen Johnson on there as the guy that like,
actually the leap was kind of last year, but we're
acknowledging it this year, right oversimplification, that's the only other
category you missed. So almost, I mean, but we're only
going three. So you did the best you could. I
the only difference so I have mobile first, We've talked plenty.
I just I just think that he's a legitimate offensive
weapon in a great offense and is like kind of
integral to it functioning because of what he can do
now off the dribble that was just not a skill
he had previously. Defense is whatever he was great before,
he's slightly greater now. Just his driving, his physicality that
you know we've the three point shooting is like, oh,
that's where the leap is supposed to come. It is there.
It's a volume question still, but he is someone that
is making threes now, Cad, I totally I really struggle
with Kid for the exact same reasons. I don't. I
just don't know how much of it is context. I
do think you can say, like you can credit him
for taking advantage of the context and and you know,
having shooting around him for the first time ever. You know,
it wasn't a guarantee that he would would become, you know,
a more prolific scorer and patent and assist guy. It
maybe it should have been the expectation. I just still
think to deliver on that expectation and be the singular,
you know driver, the main driver, not singular that that
that's too narrow, the main driver of success on a
piston seam. That's good now like that that is, you know,
like might make a postseason appearance. Has been over five
hundred deeper into a season than at any point in
a really long time. Like, I don't know, it's just
all it's Prokaid propaganda. I think he didn't make an All.
Speaker 1: Star team, but it just now was more compelling to
put him one of your All NBA teams.
Speaker 2: Right, we talk about like which level of leap or
which level of improvement matters more like it's the biggest
deal is when a guy does like what Shay did
a couple of years ago, where it's your All Star
caliber maybe, and then you're suddenly an MVP guy. I
think Caid went from like good numbers on a team
that's going nowhere to someone that we both like basically
had to bend over backwards to not put on our
All Star team. So and then Powell. You made the
case for Powell. He's my third pick.
Speaker 1: There other names that I considered, and I'm sure you
did and maybe have some differences. And then I have
this guy in the wrong column. So if anyone wants
is still listening and All Defense, he's missed fifteen games,
and I still think, just when you look at how
much the other guys had played, like Andrew Nemhart, if
he doesn't miss another game, it's probably gonna make one
of my All Defense. That guy's been a monster, really good.
Speaker 2: So that's this.
Speaker 1: I have him listed under most Improved Player. I did
not consider him for most Improved Player, but I had
Zobots under here too.
Speaker 2: R J.
Speaker 1: Barrett. I know the efficiency has come down, but just
like the level of playmaking he has to shoulder. I
do think I still put j dubb in here, even
though there some efficiency kind of declined Tyler Hero, Peyton,
Pritchard on Johnson. Of course, if you picked second year players,
Wemby could just be the answer. Yeah, And I don't
know what to make we go through this every year.
I'm not gonna be late here. I didn't pick him,
but those are some of the other names that I
had considered anything from you, I.
Speaker 2: Have all those. I think, did you mention throughout Jalen Johnson?
Did you mention DeAndre Hunter? That's another one where it's
like is he better or is he just healthy and
gets to play? Yeah, Austin Reeves. I don't know why
the Lakers didn't just think he was a point guard
this whole time like that that works, like and I
do think there were enough signs earlier in his career
that yeah, you can just he can just be the
guy on the ball and that's so.
Speaker 1: Do you think he does enough a threat of a
scorer on the ball for that, because I think part
of the when when I'm watching them and a big
criticisms when they just can't blow out teams. Yeah, And
I just found myself wondering. I don't think D'Angel Russell
was the difference between this, But when you have one
trustworthy from scratch creator for both himself and others, it's
probably kind of hard to create that separation between you
and even bad opponents, let alone good ones.
Speaker 2: I think maybe on not on any team, but on
the Lakers, who do get plenty of playmaking from Lebron
and the offense still you know, kind of can sometimes
orbit around Anthony Davis. I'm okay with him as I
think like point guard is perfectly fine for him, Like, yeah,
I can side that he's not gonna blow by guys
that often, but he's really clever. He's a good passer,
and he's a good and he's a and has been
like a great shooter in like a lower usage role.
So I don't know, I think it's a fair it's
fair to question, like, is he really different or did
they just finally like use him in a different way
and he could have done this all along. I think
it's probably more of the former. He's just improved enough
to where like this is a more viable strategy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Are you ready to take us through
six man in the year.
Speaker 2: Yes, I am so. I've got Peyton Pritchard number one,
just the three point volume that it's just the consistency
of his scoring. Don't this wasn't really hard. I would
be surprised if he doesn't win any Do you.
Speaker 1: Know what made it easier? I won't spoil it, but
because there's a chance that both of our number two
just might not be eligible for the season.
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, So I have Amen Thompson number two, and
I have Scotti Pippen Junior third. The numbers are close
for there are definitely some other guys you could consider
it three you have somebody else. I just think Pippen,
like John Rant's gonna has missed close to half the season,
and Pippen as a like a just a really good
on ball defender against point guards and as a guy
that can run the offense. It's great. I think you
had an incredible driving stat on him last last time
we did this good enough shooter like he's just he's
basically a starter that just happens to play behind John Morant.
So he was my third there. So so who do
you have?
Speaker 1: And Prichard and Amen Thompson, and then I have DeAndre Hunter.
I mean you laid out his case. I mean he's
coming off the bench, pumping in points, playing reasonable defenses,
but the efficiency is better from him. Decision making overall
on offense is better. I also think that you know,
and this would be his case and top I guess
Thompson's is a right now. I mean he's starting, So
it's weird. But someone wants asked me like, why don't
you look at it more through the lens of which
player comes off the bench and is good enough and
has a reasonable shot at closing And so if you
were going to lean on that, I think that's a
fair way to look at it. DeAndre Hunter or Amen
Thompson would probably be the picks and just giving the
now if you think, do you think Amen Thompson's gonna
stick in the starting line up the rest of the year.
I know a lot of it will depend on, like
Jabari Smith's availability.
Speaker 2: I just think Jabari Smith's shooting is if you're you know,
it's the same old thing of like you've got shanng
Goon as the five who's knocking a space. You gotta
get it somewhere. You can't unless it's Aman Thompson playing
point guard. And Fred van Vliet is somewhere else you
can get another shooter out there. I just think that
the shooting makes it tough, you know, And and this
isn't a great Rockets offense as it is, so I
could I would assume Smith, we'll get that job back.
But but Thompson fits the criteria you're talking about, like
that guy closes on a lot of teams and starts
on a lot of teams. Uh.
Speaker 1: Did consider Ti Jerome a little bit case is not
nearly as strong as it was last time?
Speaker 2: Did oh?
Speaker 1: For Caris LeVert nikil Obxander Walker ended up being my
toughest cut for this. I think Malik Beasley deserves some
love here, and so does Santi Aldama of Memphis. I
did have Scotti Pippen Junr in my long list as well.
Did you have anybody else that you looked at? And
what we both looked at Buddy healed last time? Guess what?
Speaker 2: I didn't look at him, not looking at him so much.
I don't know if you mentioned carrislvert is another guy
I think, OK, I was.
Speaker 1: Gonna ask you if you think that this guy would
have finish your list. Let me see if he's on
it first.
Speaker 2: No, I so I had my short list was was Hunter?
Was I think probably my toughest cut LeVert Na Aldama
As you said, everyone, I thought of Aldama, Beasley. I
didn't really think about ty Jerome just because I was
kind of like lukewarm on the sustainability of that last
time around. Good good, really good bench player. But I
don't have him on my long list.
Speaker 1: If he comes back and starts playing soon, and given
how he was playing at the time of injury, and
now that he's coming off the bench, is there enough
time for Jonathan Minga to enter this discussion?
Speaker 2: Won't you have? How many games will he have missed?
Speaker 1: I think he's at like it might be fifteen or something.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and I think he's gonna I assume he's
gonna start when he comes back, if he but that's
been an incorrect assumption basically throughout his whole career, other
than like a few isolated stretches.
Speaker 1: So he's played in thirty two games, So that number
is actually higher than I thought. And the Warriors so
far this season have played he's only missed ten.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he could be on like a down
ballot pick, like he's not going to threaten Peyton Pritchard.
I'll tell you that. And like maybe Iman Thompson starts
too much and he falls off for that reason, and
so you might have to think about him for third.
But like who knows, man, who knows what's why. Maybe
they'll just not rush him back in tank.
Speaker 1: I don't know his agent should push for it, because
the Warriors clearly don't care about this season anymore or whatever.
And so having continue to come off the bench average
like thirty points be game coming off the bench, win
the sixth Man of the Year award, and then there's
your negotiating leverage agency. Everybody's favorite award is up next
Coach of the Year. If you're looking for diversity, all right,
don't turn to Grant and I.
Speaker 2: So did you have so I'll just say it because
they're the same. I don't know if it's my turn
or not. Jenkins won Kenny Atkins into Tehran lu three,
which neither of us had on our ballot. Last time.
We both had a similar like epiphany, I suppose independently
because we didn't talk about this one. I think did
you or I have Atkinson first? Last time? I think
maybe I did.
Speaker 1: I can actually look while you're while you're vamping.
Speaker 2: The reason, I'll just talk about who I have now
at first.
Speaker 1: And so we actually both had no You had Atkinson first,
I had Jenkins first last time.
Speaker 2: So I guess then I'm the one that has to
explain it. So Akinson is done an incredible job, like
things were now in Cleveland that didn't work before, and
the team is gonna win the East by a million games.
It seems like I just think Jenkins has had like
kind of more to deal with. Like they're starting two
rookies pretty often. They're missing John Morant every other night
so far, like you're having to I mean, this is
where you credit him. It's not like you're having to
do this, but you've you've implemented this offensive system that
nobody else is playing and it's really working. And to
have the balls to do that, like on a team
with real expectations coming into the season, is that's significant.
I think, like it's not just how good of a
motivator are you and where do you rank on offense
and defense, It's like the decisions you make that are
not easy ones to like establish an identity, like that's
kind of wishy Washy, But that's that feels like a
big deal to me. So I think, and you know,
you don't have Gig Jackson until like a couple of
days ago. You just don't have there's a bro like
Jake Laavia is good Santie all Damas in the Six
Man Conversation. You're just getting everybody to play their best.
So I think I feel really good about having him first,
and I think I'm probably gonna leave him there for
the balance of the year unless something crazy happens.
Speaker 1: Well, they're gonna get too healthy, and then that's gonna
be their downfall. He's not gonna know what the.
Speaker 2: G because they're like, I'm definitely good enough to be
in the rotation, and how come I'm the twelfth guy? Now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think you could go with Atkinson
or Jenkins have a pretty strong case here. Low thing.
I don't know if it was an epiphany, but the
Clippers just seem to be getting more experimental and some
of the stuff he's done with like kind of doubt,
excuse me, diminishing certain player roles, increasing sort of some
of the lineup usage there. I don't know if they've
necessarily been creative enough on offense, but I also don't
know if they have the optionality to be creative.
Speaker 2: That's the whole case for him to me is it's
just like coming into the season, we thought they were
gonna be terrible, and they've figured He's figured out how
to make James hard for most of the year, James
Harden and some defenders. And I don't know if we
credit him for Norm Powell because where's the offense without him,
But like he figured out how to make a really
like kind of a mess work pretty well.
Speaker 1: And you know the couple games I've seen from Kawhi Leonard,
like those minutes, the spacing completely he was He's on
the court, and so that's a credit to Kawhi Leonard.
But it's also like, oh, this is what Tyler can
do if you give him actual NBA offensive personnel to
work with other coaches that you want to take through that,
there's probably long list of the names that you could
have gone with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Immiodoka I think has been kind of
just we might have had him top three at some point.
Joe Missoula, even though the Celtics are I think the
Celtics are just like half asleep at this point, not
necessarily on him, Mark Dagnault. Those are the big three
for me. I guess Jamal Moseley, But I don't know
what to do with that team as injured as it's been.
You know what, anybody else you thought about?
Speaker 1: Tell them, well, they are taking more threes in Orlando.
But like the fact that they can't play faster, I
just don't understand, like they will they okay, they forced turnovers,
the'll get out in transition, you grab a live board,
fucking run. I don't understand that team. Just this is
like year three of me being infuriated by this. So
he was certainly on the list, I think. I don't
think I had anybody else that I threw on that.
I mean Mark Dagnol of course could just be in there.
I don't know if you mentioned him.
Speaker 2: Obviously. A guy who fell off, probably unfairly, is Jordi Fernandez. Like,
I don't know what you They were good when they
weren't supposed to be and they didn't have a lot
of talent. Now that they're talented, they're not.
Speaker 1: They's like they go toe to toe with the Knicks,
and I know the Knicks like to make everything more
difficult they go toe to toe with them on Tuesday Night.
So I yeah, there's I think, does this Coach of
the Year ballot? I think ours last year was like
we went like fifteen names deep, and does it feel
like it's shrunk a little this year to where there's
like more of a delineation.
Speaker 2: I've never had an easier time like just saying, oh,
this is the top three, and I don't think fourth
is particularly close. So yeah, I think I think that's
pretty clear.
Speaker 1: Now we're on to everyone's favorite award. Good the most
important one executive of the year.
Speaker 2: All right, So I had Sam Presty one, Sean Marks two,
and Zach Cleman three.
Speaker 1: I thought the contract, you're really you're digging it, huh.
Speaker 2: Just a huge fan. So I think I had Mark's
first last time, and I've flipped it just partly because
you know the logic that it's just way harder to
sort of add pieces on a really good team and
manage those types of decisions than it is to just
like some team comes to you with a crazy ass
offer and you say, yep, I will take all those picks.
For McHale Bridges, you know, he hired Jordi Fernandez that's great.
But it's like the things that that the Nets have
done well were just sort of like presented to them
and it's like, yeah, anybody's gonna say yes to most
of that, right, Like So I don't know. I think
he's still number two for me. So it's not like
he's done a bad job. I think he's done a
great job. I think Presty just had the harder, like
the heavier lift, the just tougher machinations, you know, and
you're talking about like a trade we kind of got
wrong on the last pod, like just little moves that
allow you to go get Isaiah Hartenstein. That's kind of
a last year thing, but that's a factor picking aj Mitchell.
That's he's hurt.
Speaker 1: But like, wait, that's the case, is that it's and
I might have sent his last time, but at some
point this season I found myself saying, the thunder really
got they let them get AJ Mitchell. And the fact
that we're saying that when he did all this other
stuff on a team that's that good in aj Mitchell,
Mitchell's getting rotation minutes. It's over. Like it's just and
I agree with your point on everything, just how his
job is harder. And the thing we got wrong for
anyone who cares, I did not include Vasa Michic going
to Charlotte as part of that Gordon Hayward trade. So
that lopped off more money for okay see, and it
set them up to more easily go about their offseason again.
Isaiah Hartenstein, So I apologize for I'm just making mistakes
left and right over the past couple of weeks. Shame
on me. I have Nico Harrison three instead of climbing
is a really good choice. Daryl Morey is not here
notably that is would you predicted that at the beginning
of the season. But so for Nico Harrison with me,
and it's about to maybe be put to the test.
I know maybe you wanted Naji Marshall to be more
efficient from three, but like the hand he was dealt
heading into the offseason, and you turned it into like
no cap flexibility and you lose Derek Jones Junior, Tim
Hardaway Junior and seconds and you get back Quenton Grimes,
Klay Thompson and Naji Marshall just like a home run.
I know he's not playing as well right now, but
Spencer didn't with he like was given him really good
minutes at one point in Dallas, and we'll see kind
of how this ros. I think some people will move
away from him because Dallas' record is meant right now.
I think because of all the injuries, I'm curious to
see if they'll go get another wing defender at the
deadline or is it now? Oh, can we figure out
a way to get a different type of big with
the Derek Lively injury being out two to three months?
Which is I mean, if it's three months and we're
in January, we're talking the end of April.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's a playoff impact thing for sure. Yeah, I
will see what he does. I mean just home runs
last trade deadline, so it's pretty easy to be confident.
Speaker 1: And I did, by the way, I did have him
penculed in his three for a minute, But then I
thought I was letting the injuries in Dallas. I think
in the suspension of Nachie Marshall, I guess like permeate
my thinking too much. Trajan Langdon in Detroit, we both
did not love what they got back for Tim Hardaway,
like giving up Quentin Grimes. They got seconds. Tim Hardaway
Junior has helped them this year. He has signed Malik Beasley,
who is in the sixth Man of the Year discussion
and has been super helpful for them. And by the way,
Kate Cunningham people kind of poo pooed the max extension
and I think his decision was tougher than I mean,
Edvan Mobley, Scotty Barnes, like, Okay, those decisions are kind
of easy, and maybe Kake Cunningham was easy, but he
didn't draft Kay Cunningham, so committing to Kay Cunningham and
theory is harder, and that choice is now paying off.
So I think that he that front office deserves some
love here too.
Speaker 2: I agree. I think that's a good inclusion. I think
Lawrence Frank is another one, just you know, watch like
Chris Dune, Derek Jones Junior. Like, I guess some of
it felt like, well, what else are we going to do?
Not not bringing Paul George back looks pretty good. Not
taking on bad money and assign and trade to move
Paul George looks pretty good.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The Clippers are just a big surprise, and we got
to find credit someplace.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think, yeah, the Clippers are the Are
they the biggest surprise? Of the season. I guess you
could make a case for Detroit. But the Clippers are
in the West and a playoff team, right and with
so they lose Paul George, no Kawhi, and they don't
who is their second best players like Norman Powell has
like all star credentials, basics. It's just a way out
of I think prior to the season, had you told
me that this is where we be at at the
halfway mark, I'd been more apt to believe what you
say about the Pistons than the Clippers. Oh.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, we buried the Clippers. I think everybody kind of did.
But that's going to be our biggest over under miss
I'm sure. Yeah, Like, we'll do check in with that
over the All Star break. People have been asking for it.
I mean, I want to give people a reason to
listen to the end of season one.
Speaker 1: I don't know how much is going to change from
the mid season, but we will do an update in
advance of the All Star Break. Our second bonus segment
of the week. You're welcome or I'm sorry, I don't know.
We're going to talk about the Sun's Jazz draft pick trade.
Super fascinating. If you're watching on YouTube, you can already
see the details of it, but to run through it,
We're not going to exchange pleasantries this time because I
know Grant is doing fantastic. The Suns traded their twenty
thirty one first round pick to the Utah Jazz for
a twenty twenty five first round pick. It is the
least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota, Utah, twenty twenty seven first
round pick least favorable Cleveland, Minnesota, Utah, and a twenty
twenty nine first round pick least favorable of Cleveland, Minnesota, Utah.
And so to break that down even more, the Suns
traded one first round pick for three least favorable first
round picks that both convey more imminently. And I've seen
people say like it opens up all of their drafts.
It just gives them the ability to trade three first
round picks.
Speaker 2: That's what it does. Sorry, yeah, I it was shams.
Let's just say it, like, use the word unlocks their draft.
What do you mean, sir by unlocks their draft? That
doesn't do anything.
Speaker 1: You can't You can't trade twenty six, twenty eight, and
twenty thirty now because you just traded your twenty thirty one.
So what did you You unlocked the ability to trade
three first round picks, which you couldn't do before. You
could trade one.
Speaker 2: That's what you did, and got three new picks. That's
what you did. It doesn't change like I mean, like,
what can you trade like portions of swaps in the
even years. I like, there's nothing. I don't I don't know.
Maybe we'll look like idiots, but like you.
Speaker 1: The trade because they've already like eight times swap. You
can trade twenty six and twenty eight now which you
couldn't do before. But it's just it did unlock stuff,
but it did not unlot. And if they want draft
picks and all of those drafts, okay, fine, You've now
had the ability to have draft picks get cost controlled talent.
And I think we'll start there before we get into
the The Utah Jazz tide at all is more fascinating
because I think we have this discussion, our discord a
little bit leads to the larger conversation about well, what
is the value of trading for these distant first round
picks while giving up this many guaranteed First I want
to talk about that, but we need to start with
the Suns. What do you think this poor tends for them?
And I think there are three different routes to go
and correct me before you choose one. If you have
a fourth one, it's they really just want to get
cost control talent in here. Probably the least likely one.
They're trying to gear up for Jimmy Butler trade, and
the idea of trading to multiple first round picks is
more palatable if you're a Miami team. Let's say that's
still going to try and win after trading Jimmy Butler,
or are they just trying to load up to make
maybe not the Jimmy Butler move, but now you're able
to get let's say you can trade use of Nurkic,
get off that money, well also getting back a player
of value because you have the first round equity to
sweeten that package. Which one do you lean more towards
or is there an avenue that I didn't mention that
you think they might exp well, I.
Speaker 2: Mean we can just rule out the like they're pretty
interested in getting, you know, the twenty seventh, thirtieth pick
in the draft, you know, and then the twenty seventh
or the twenty fifth or whatever it ends up being
in those least favorable situations. That ain't it. I think
it's Butler number one. It's just kind of that is
just I was trying to think, like, can you remember
the last move that seemed to be this obviously like
a precursor to another trade, you know what I mean?
Like that, this is so obviously to me they have
something they want to do, they need to get stuff
to push it over the finish line, and this is
that stuff, like and I think it's most obviously going
to be Butler. But like to your point, the like
one B is now you can find now you can
incentivize someone to take on Nurkic, or you can attach
this to Grayson Allen or whoever else you want to
move to try to improve the roster. It just feels
like the Butler thing though, right, And this will be
stale as hell if it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1: It does, But I'm also wondering if now did were
they from there? And the reporting is that they haven't
gone to Bradley be O with a trade proposal yet,
And I think that's smart because why he already knows
about it, But why make that official if you haven't
already unless something's in place. Were they the ones that
didn't think that giving up the twenty thirty one first
round pick was worth it? Because then in which case
is it's something like, oh, you give up twenty five
and twenty nine to get Jimmy Butler, and then you
can turn around and would I'll just use Detroit as
an example. Would they take on nurkic send you back
someone in exchange for that twenty twenty seven first round pick?
So did this enable them to maybe do two things,
which would be get Jimmy Butler and then also get
off use of NRDIC is money?
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe that's it. I guess yeah, then it's both
of those first two options that you that you brought up.
I guess it. I don't want to take us too
far afield, but like we would agree, wouldn't we that
the twenty thirty one pick is just subjectively more valuable
than obviously any single one of these least favorable picks
that they're getting back. So it's like, well, why wouldn't
say Miami just want that twenty thirty one as opposed
to if say you're trading all three of these to
get in a Butler deal, Why wouldn't it or even
if it's and if it's only two, why wouldn't Miami
want an unprotected twenty thirty one as opposed to like
a couple picks that are going to be in the
late twenties or mid twenties at best.
Speaker 1: I think there are two reasons, one of which is
pat Riley's one hundred years old and probably been thinking
about twenty thirty one. The other one would be because
they're trying to stay competitive without Jimmy Butler. Are they
more interesting getting either some immedia talent or just more
immediate picks that they can flip, or there's a third
or fourth team involved that are bringing them someone back
they're taking on beat On, you're getting a better player
or better fitting player than Beal. I also think so
let's talk about the value of the picks first, and
the Jazz trade in one of these knowing it's going
to be number thirty, So they've traded a thirtieth overall
first round pick and then two least favorable first round picks, where, yes,
you could say we don't know where those teams are
gonna be twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty nine, but not
only is at least favorable, it's at least favorable of
three teams, and so the odds of I would argue
all of those picks will be twenty or later. And
so while you could say that maybe Phoenix will figure
it out and they'll be good by then, you make
this trade because you think you're getting a lottery pick,
is how I would frame it in twenty thirty one. Now,
if you're Utah, I think you also look at it
this way. We have multiple like there are only certain
teams I think could do this. You have multiple picks
in those years, you're not keeping all those first anyway,
so why not take the bigger swing. If another team
did something like this where they didn't have multiple first
round picks, you're not only depleting your asset well, but
you're increasing the variance of the out going pick while
doing so. And so I do think that the twenty
thirty one that will end up being the highest pick
that ends up conveying in this draft, whether it's worth it.
Could it be number eighteen instead of number ten, sure,
but I think that's why Utah makes it. And I
know this was some of the points that ran the discorders.
You could point to some trades where it's, well, those
Clippers' picks don't look like they're gonna be that good,
going to OKC. My pushback on that would be one
we're kind of still waiting on the out out ears
like twenty six and twenty seven. But I think when
the difference to me here is the Sons. You're trying
to maximize a window where Kevin Durants already aged thirty six,
Bradley Beal's already a net negative, and when the Clippers
made that trade, I don't know that perception of a
trade has changed more maybe annually, but just in the
time that has passed since, because any if I remember correctly,
I would have said that probably, oh, the Clippers just
opened their title window for the next decade, so who
cares about those picks? And this isn't like this is
more similar to like what Boston was able to get
out of Brooklyn, And like I I think it'll be
more fascinating and maybe revisit trades like what the Knicks
did with the Nets, maybe what the Timberwolves did with
Rudy Gobert, not so much what the Cleveland Cavaliers did
with Donovan Mitchell because like he was younger and you
also have these younger players around him. So I do
think the twenty thirty one pick will end up being
Like I do, I think the Jazz specifically inoculated themselves
against like enough high variant outcomes here to wear. I
would be shocked if we don't look back and say,
relative to where those other three picks landed, that it
wasn't at least worth trying to get twenty thirty one.
And finally, because I know you're rich and to say something, huh,
future trade value is part of it. Like as of
right now, the Jazz can point to and say, look
at this thing could be anything. Look at how bad
the Suns are gonna be. So that pick for the
next two or three years is definitely going to have
more value than any pick that you sent out.
Speaker 2: I think it's I definitely have seen so Kevin Pelton,
for one, basically gamed it out that if you just
sort of you can assign and it's like an expected
value to different draft picks, and the cumulative expected value
of the three outgoing picks from Utah amount to like
a number six overall pick, which you'd say, well that
twenty thirty one. That's I mean, is it going to
be better than six? Like, I guess not. I'm not
persuaded by that. I think from Utah's perspective, specifically, this
is not a free agent destination. What you need to
do is draft the best player on your team. The
best way to do that is to get an unprotected
first round pick from a team who's latter half of
this decade. I don't care like how good they are
next year. The year after, it's gonna be a mess
because they're gonna be old and bad and inflexible. Now
the most we'll talk about the most interesting element to
me of all this, which involves Houston. But if you're
in the Jazz, the upside of that twenty thirty one
is just like, I don't care if some of those
lesser you know, those those other picks outgoing are like
eighteen or twelve or whatever, Like, I want the shot
at the pick that might get me the guy that
is a cornerstone, because I'm not signing that guy. I'm
never gonna sign that guy. There's only one way. Maybe
you can trade for it. And I would argue that
that twenty thirty one has more trade value than three. First,
that'll probably be in the twenties, and one's definitely way
late in the twenties. So utaw side of it. As
long as you've got the stomach and the ownership and
the management to be like we're gonna wait seven years
or six years to pay this off, then it's it's
a no brainer. But it makes sense for the Suns too,
because they just need tools to pull off trade or
you know, print trades parenthesis s.
Speaker 1: So they're the consumment, like we need to see what
happens at this day because if they do nothing, like
if they just sit on these picks.
Speaker 2: No chance, there's no chance, No, I can't imagine.
Speaker 1: But just to wrap up on the Jazz, wouldn't that
like re kind of enforce the value of having jobs
to ability or maybe the value of ownership in the
NBA where it's you are willing to wait because if
Danny Ainge is so secure and his position, his legacy,
whatever his status in Utah, there are only because you
might have said, like, well, the only other team that
I feel like would have definitely done something like this
would have been the Thunder because Sam Presty is that
type of cat there might be other teams. You could say, well,
the Spurs are secure enough in their place whatever, But
just the sheer accumulation of picks for Utah and Okac
that are not their own, and then you can combine
their own with there's the value in being able to
look at the long game while still like playing. Like
in the Thunder's case, there's value they can play all
the games, but Utah, you're not good enough as now
like now, so there might have been why would we
give up a more imminent pick, because that's just another
bite at the apple. I really think that this reinforces
the value, especially for teams that have all these extra
first round picks in the same years, of just either
job security or ownership's willingness, at least in the moment,
because this could all flip on its head in years
to say we're willing to accept that the crown jewel
of this trade is not going to convey for six
seven years, or again even being innovative and saying or
it's one we hope to use in a trade well
before then because we're good enough to do so.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just think like I am receptive to the
bites at the apple argument. Because the draft is a crapshoot,
and especially going that far out, you just have no idea.
But it's like that an unprotected pick from a team
that to me has among the bleakest futures in the league.
That's like, that's like a that's like a gourmet like
chocolate cake, Like I want to buy that that. I
want that one, bye, I don't want like just a couple,
Oh maybe this one. I don't need bites at the
apple when I have that on the table. So what
I really want to talk about, unless you have more
to clean up here, is so Phoenix, Like I want
to start by saying, like I would never run a
team like Phoenix has run this team over the last
several years. I think it's like this is now no revelation,
deeply shortsighted, like reckless, particularly in light of the new
rules that ownership and management like you can't claim surprise,
like you knew enough and you did enough stuff after
the rules were in place to where like this is
nobody else is doing this. That's like a red flag.
I feel like, so it's reckless, it's crazy, But like
if you know you've got this bailout where you still
have Kevin Durant, you still have Devin Booker, You're probably
gonna have Jimmy Butler. And I'm not saying their value
goes in that order. I think Booker clearly has the
most trade value. You know, there's a team out there
that's got a bunch of your own future firsts that
might want a guy exactly like Devin Booker or even
Kevin Durant. I don't know if this goes bad, and
who knows, I don't know what that even means. Like,
the Sons are gonna be really interesting the rest of
this year, assuming they did all this to get Jimmy Butler.
If and when this goes bad, you can still send
Devin Booker to the Rockets and get your drafts back.
And you're kind of like, well, that was fun. We
can We're still okay, right, Like isn't that to me?
That's the most interesting element of all of this is
there is like a ripcord to pull for the Suns
that like, I don't know, maybe maybe maybe this is
something we see repeat, like this pattern of of well
old get nuts for a little while and then we'll
just go try to get our picks back from the
team that has them, Like, isn't that like that's a
wild element in this whole, in this whole thing from
Phoenix's side, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you had skeeded this that you think that
Phoenix definitely had to check in with Huston.
Speaker 2: We'll be like, hey, like you know the guys still
like Booker right, like a couple of years from now,
maybe if.
Speaker 1: You're the worst case scenario, like if you're the Suns
and the Rockets are uniquely equipped to do this, if
you just said, give us back control of all the
picks of ours that you have and we'll give you
Kevin Rant and Devin Booker, sure you're sending out so
it's Fred van Fleet and then it's Jalen Green and
like if you need any other salary, make it work,
you have some of those non guarantees. I'm sure there's
Rockets fans that would push back against that. There are
Rockets fans that seem to think that Jalen Green is
better than Devin Booker dearon Fox that like the whole nine.
I guess maybe he could get there one day. It
is certainly not now, I don't think. But having that
out for insofar as it's actually available, I think does help.
But but I guess I have two questions here. I'm
gonna ask the first one about these other teams I
do have. I agree that I probably wouldn't be doing
what Phoenix has done. The Cardinal Sin would still be
the Kevin Durant trade, though, and I don't know if
we were close enough to say, like, and even with
the Bradley Beal stuff, you always should have known how
restrictive the no trade clause would be. But like, I
don't like. I think teams are still kind of realizing, oh,
what these new rules are gonna do. There's always unintended consequences.
So it's not that I give them a pass, but
I understand the decisions they made at every turn. Now
when I have made every one of them, I think
they're crown failure. And I still believe that the outcome
would not have changed. They should have negotiated harder with
Brooklyn for Kevin Durant. Matti Shpiak came in, wanted to
make a splash. I get it, it's Kevin Durant. He
didn't want to go anywhere, but Phoenix dare him to
open up his list at that point. But I wanted
to ask you, though, when we have the Lakers and
the Warriors acting like cowardly Charlatan's when it comes to
optimizing windows around aging stars. I have a level of
respect for the Suns. I want to clarify something because
discord user be Rich pointed out something that I think
was a fair critique. I understand relative to the market
right now, while I'll use the Warriors as an example
why the Warriors aren't really excited to give up all
their draft picks for player X, you have now said, though,
over the course of multiple years, Pascal Siakam's not good enough,
Ojan Andobi's not good enough. We're gonna do these half
assed pursuits of Paul George and Lowry market and who
are somehow good enough even though Pascal Siakam wasn't good enough.
You don't want to get involved in a Zach Colvine
sweepstakes that might cost you Andrew Wiggins an apick. I
understand Andrew Wiggins has been good, but you're acting like
cowards and the Lakers have and it's fine. You don't
get to tell your fan base, though, that you're still
trying to optimize. You don't you don't get to sell that,
and so the Lakers might be more they're bigger offenders
because just like they don't have the legacy titles with
this Lebron James Anthony Davis Corp. To lean on. But
when you have those teams that should be acting with
more urgency for the past couple of years, and then
you have a team in Phoenix that do we agree
with every move?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Is it reckless? Maybe, but like to be there and
to do that year over year, to try like maximizing
the timeline of these players that are ready to win. Now,
I do have a level of respect for it.
Speaker 2: I can't I get it, like, if the point is
to try to win a championship, the Suns are trying
harder to do that immediately than a lot of other teams.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I think we just like I think fundamentally disagree on
the Warriors side of it, and the fact that I
view the Lakers a little differently makes me check my
bias for sure. But for Golden State, I think I
don't know that I would classify the marketing or George
pursuits as half asked. I think I think I can
see why you would say that to me, it was
more we have a pro we think is it makes
sense for us to pay for players of this quality,
and we're not going over that. And the hope is
that at some point the price we're willing to pay
for a player of a certain level of quality like
gets both sides to say yes. I don't know that
the Warriors are in better shape if they give up
what it would have taken to get Paul George. I
don't know that they're in better shape if it would
have been Lauri markin In. I certainly don't think whatever
it would take to get Jimmy Butler gets them to
the level of Memphis, OKC. Houston. Like, they're just not
the same species of team like as those so like
I do I get why people and why you bristle
at the idea of we're trying to maximize Steph's prime
and just by not doing anything, you know, it feels
like they're saying that and then they're not doing anything
or they're pretending to do something.
Speaker 1: They've essentially I think if they've essentially I feel like
they're telegraphing when Giannis becomes available, we'll be in I
guess Johannis could force his way there, but you're never
going to have the best package for him. I guess
you now you have more picks to offer than as
like the Lakers for sure. But I just again, it's
more about the past actions to where how many players
have they decided like they weren't good enough to do
this and like they have the twenty twenty two titles,
So I actually understand it. I just hate the way
that the message is being conveyed. It's superficial, it's fake,
and I don't know the one thing I will push
back on you, I don't know how you don't consider
the lowry marketing pursuit half ass when it's like, well
we don't really want to give up multiple firsts or pods,
like all right, I think, well, I.
Speaker 2: I know, I think I think if it's if it's me,
it's this is me, so it's not them. I think
you're looking at how much better does market in make us?
Is that an like what level of team do we
become with marketing at the number that's going to take
to keep him? And I think they correctly concluded like
not good enough. So like I think I think that
it's a really hard argument to make if you're like,
we're just waiting for your honest because it's like, well
you're proud, then that's you're gonna be way forever. Probably.
So Like I think, if if I could get on
board with you about one aspect of this, it's that
they are not being the warriors are not being direct
maybe about what they really intend to do, which is
I think, make sure that there's not a gross bottoming
out or like bleak half decade. Like I think inside
they all know this is fucking over as like a
contending outfit, and they don't want to be really bad
if they try to go make this into a contender
and fail and then have to deal with the outcome
of that. I think there in a way, it's like
almost like there's an unrealistic level of ambition because what
they're trying to do is like have it both ways,
which has been an issue for this organization with two
timelines and stuff. They're like, we're gonna call it lip service.
If you want, We're gonna like explore you know, no brainer, Yes,
we'll take that guy, trade options which won't materialize. We're
gonna not fire all our bullets. We're gonna hope that's
enough to like keep fans in the seats and keep
Steph happy enough, and then when it's over, we're still
gonna have a full clip, like we can actually build
a good team again. I think that's really what's happening.
And but a team is never gonna say, hey, we're
gonna kind of float for a couple of years. Guys
still show up though, and watch us.
Speaker 1: I guess I just don't understand. I want to spend
more time in the words. I guess you just don't
like a Levine case. If you're if you're concerned about
keeping the slate clean, you can probably get zach lavine
for this year's first round pick end salary. And if
you're saying, well, we can't get rid of Andrew Wiggins,
Andrew Wiggins doesn't matter, then to your big picture, you're
gonna have a higher seiling with zach lavine. And so
I think there's been a lack of commitment to even
finding middle ground options, where's oh, we'll give up seconds
for Dennis Shrewder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think they just don't want So let's
maybe the tie it back to Phoenix. Phoenix is real
comfortable with what could otherwise be termed as reckless moves
like call them bold if you want, or like high
high risk, high reward behavior. This Warriors team is just
not they're they're just more that's just that's not the
way that they're being run. And I think I don't
know the Sun's the fallout of this Sun's thing maybe
instructive and maybe it'll be like, yeah, maybe you should
just go for it, because who knows what can happen, right,
I think that's a possibility.
Speaker 1: While they're probably obligated to do this, but is there
a level of do you think that they're good enough
or would have the ceiling enough with Jimmy Butler that
if this is the reason that I'm because if it's
the time, like are they sending It's so hard to
know without understanding what the outcome is. But did they
do this saying they were going to send to all
three picks just out and that's how they get Jimmy Butler?
Or is it like I said, where they're kind of
staggering it, where we're figuring out a way to get
Jimmy Butler Wall So maybe lopping off a contract like
a use of nurkice that we don't want it a
separate trade.
Speaker 2: I think again, initially I would have said, oh, this
is just for Butler. Miami said we want three first,
go figure out how to do it. But but in
that in that scenario, I think again, pat Riley's age
is the thing. If I'm the heat I want the
twenty thirty one. If that's on the table, I don't
want these three other picks. So it does seem maybe
like the Suns are saying, we'll send you to We'll
use another one to move Nurkic and we get better
in ways that go beyond Jimmy Butler being added to
the team. I think that's a possibility. I think that
the maybe.
Speaker 1: That's the outcome. Sorry, does that change your perception of
this trade a great deal?
Speaker 2: It depends on what happens with that other pick. The
hypothetically is going out with Nurkic or whoever to get
a better place.
Speaker 1: You're not detroits not giving you, Stuart, And if it's.
Speaker 2: If you come out of this as the Suns with
Isaiah Stewart and Jimmy Butler, and I'll take back a
lot of what I said, and no Nurkic, I'll walk
back a lot. I mean, because that's that would be phenomenal.
I just think I think the only certainty is that
this is clearly uh a Jimmy Butler precursor. I think
then the question is is that all which is what
we where we started with this? And I guess we'll
we'll just see.
Speaker 1: Uh with that you're ready to take us out of here?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Thanks everybody. Let us I mean, this is a
really interesting trade and this may be stale in ten
seconds after the Suns actually do something with these picks.
Let us know what you think. Let us tell us
what you think the plan is or which which of
the plans proposed seems most likely. As always, if you're
watching this on YouTube, comment, subscribe there, leave us my
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your friends, tell your enemies. Shouts Frank nol Kina apologies,
Jared Allen