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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 7: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 8: Good Evening. One question remains unanswered. Who is the Zodiac.
Speaker 8: There have been many hypotheses about the killer's identity, some
Speaker 8: sober and evidence based, some wildly speculation, all touching upon
Speaker 8: any one or more of the twenty five hundred suspects
Speaker 8: in the Zodiac serial killer case, but until now, the
Speaker 8: truth has not been known. In Hunted, doctor Mark Hewitt
Speaker 8: presented the facts of the case, the attacks, the letters,
Speaker 8: the phone calls, and the police response. In profile, he
Speaker 8: demonstrated the psychology of serial killers and gave an evidence
Speaker 8: based criminal profile of the Zodiac himself. Yet even these
Speaker 8: present an incomplete picture of the case. Inexposed. Doctor Hewett
Speaker 8: fills in the gaps in the timeline, explains how and
Speaker 8: why the Zodiac originated and when where he disappeared to
Speaker 8: and reveals the identity of one of the most enigmatic
Speaker 8: and feared serial killers in American history. On September twenty seventh,
Speaker 8: twenty eighteen, Exposed the Zodiac Revealed, the final installment of
Speaker 8: the Zodiac serial Killer series, brings to light the truth
Speaker 8: about the Zodiac. In it, hewittt presents definitive evidence of
Speaker 8: the killer's identity and names him directly. This incontrovertible work
Speaker 8: of investigation will confirm the suspicions of many Zodiac investigators
Speaker 8: and change the public's understanding of the case forever. The
Speaker 8: book they were featuring this evening is Exposed the Zodiac
Speaker 8: Revealed The Zodiac serial Killer, Book three with my special guest,
Speaker 8: journalist and author and historian, doctor Mark Hewitt. Welcome back
Speaker 8: to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing
Speaker 8: to this interview, Doctor Mark Hewitt.
Speaker 2: Hi Dan, thank you for having me.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. Incredible third book in the trilogy,
Speaker 8: The Zodiac Revealed Exposed. Let's jump right into this. Tell Us, Mark,
Speaker 8: this is in reverse order, but you corresponded with Ted
Speaker 8: Kazinski in prison, and in two thousand and nine you
Speaker 8: wrote your first letter tell Us about the reason why
Speaker 8: you contacted Ted Kazinski. In two thousand and nine.
Speaker 2: What was your goal?
Speaker 8: What was your what? What did you want to achieve?
Speaker 2: Tell us about that, boy, Dan, You really are getting
Speaker 2: jumping right into it, aren't we. I contacted ted Kazinski
Speaker 2: back in two thousand and nine and corresponded with him
Speaker 2: for a couple of years past that, because he was
Speaker 2: a known suspect. I had read online and read in
Speaker 2: different articles that he was a suspect. He was spect
Speaker 2: he was suspected by some people of being the Zodiac,
Speaker 2: and if that was the case, I wanted to contact
Speaker 2: him and see if I could figure anything out about that.
Speaker 8: Now, what tell us the tack or the ruse as
Speaker 8: you call it that you used do you employ to
Speaker 8: be able to achieve the goal that you had in mind?
Speaker 8: With the correspondence with him?
Speaker 2: Well, I feel a little bit cheap about that, because
Speaker 2: I was not honest with him when I wrote him
Speaker 2: the first time. One of my friends suggested to me,
Speaker 2: I just contact him and say, are you the Zodiac
Speaker 2: serial killer? Which I didn't think was a really good
Speaker 2: tact a good idea. So I wrote him and said
Speaker 2: that I was very interested in the industrial industrialization problem
Speaker 2: that I was concerned about, the problems of industrialization in
Speaker 2: today's society and where it was leading us, and how
Speaker 2: we were dependent upon technology and whatnot, basically spewing back
Speaker 2: to him a lot of his words of the Unibomber Manifesto,
Speaker 2: and uickly he quickly wrote me back.
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 2: I was quite impressed how quickly I received a letter,
Speaker 2: because I had heard that at that time he had
Speaker 2: corresponded with about four hundred different people, so it seemed
Speaker 2: that whoever wrote him in prison he was happy to
Speaker 2: respond to. So I wrote that letter, and he responded
Speaker 2: right away.
Speaker 8: You say you were successful, and we'll get you to
Speaker 8: talk about what you mean by that. But you said
Speaker 8: soon he was applying you with questions and requesting you
Speaker 8: do research for him. Tell us more about what kinds
Speaker 8: of things he was asking you and what kind of
Speaker 8: research he was requesting from you.
Speaker 2: But part of the ruse was I wanted for him
Speaker 2: to make sure that he knew that I was educated
Speaker 2: and intelligent, so that he was talking to a peer.
Speaker 2: I certainly don't have his intelligence or his IQ level,
Speaker 2: but I wanted him to know of my education and
Speaker 2: I was successful. And in the fact that he did
Speaker 2: write me back, he wrote me back quickly, but pretty
Speaker 2: soon after we exchanged letters, he began asking me for information.
Speaker 2: At the time, I was working on my doctorate for
Speaker 2: business administration, which I completed two years ago, and Ted
Speaker 2: started asking me questions about businesses administration as far as
Speaker 2: how to lead groups of people. He wanted to me
Speaker 2: to direct him to a couple of books that he
Speaker 2: could learn about how to manage people and manage an
Speaker 2: organization and his As he explained it to me, it
Speaker 2: became quite clear that he was interested in gathering together
Speaker 2: a group of people who are concerned about the technology problem,
Speaker 2: and he wanted to lead them, or at least give
Speaker 2: good instructions to other people to be able to lead them.
Speaker 8: I don't want to jump ahead too much to explore
Speaker 8: everything that you do in this incredible book, but let's
Speaker 8: talk about some of the things that how many letters
Speaker 8: and how long was this correspondence for first off? And
Speaker 8: how many letters? And were there times when evidence revealed
Speaker 8: to you in your mind or at least there was
Speaker 8: hints at or indications of tell us a little bit
Speaker 8: about some of those letters, and just in broad terms
Speaker 8: that correspondence.
Speaker 2: I corresponded with him over the course of a couple
Speaker 2: of years. He eventually came to learn that I was
Speaker 2: researching the Zodiac serial killer. I think he learned it
Speaker 2: from our friend who went online and googled my name
Speaker 2: and came upon different posts that I had posted on
Speaker 2: internet message boards. The different letters that he sent me,
Speaker 2: some of the wording reminded me vaguely of Zodiac type letters.
Speaker 2: And it was the very last letter that I think
Speaker 2: I got the strongest indication once you figured out that
Speaker 2: I was researching the Zodiac. He sent me a very short, terse,
Speaker 2: angry letter, and I like to call it my exorcist letter,
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of anger that came through in
Speaker 2: his In the letter. I could see it even in
Speaker 2: the pressure of his pen as he was pressing down
Speaker 2: on the paper. That it was an awful lot heavier
Speaker 2: and bolder than the previous letters I'd received. It was confrontational,
Speaker 2: or at least the best that he could do as
Speaker 2: far as confrontation, And between that attitude and the tone
Speaker 2: of that letter and some of the phrases of all
Speaker 2: the other letters, it gave me the sense that, you know,
Speaker 2: this might be the person who's responsible for the Zodiac letters.
Speaker 2: The final letter he sent to me. He actually did
Speaker 2: write out the word zodiac. He put it in quotes,
Speaker 2: and I compared that word that he wrote to me
Speaker 2: he printed, because Ted Kazinski prints all of his letters.
Speaker 2: He printed that letter and I printed that word, and
Speaker 2: I compared it to the word zodiac and all of
Speaker 2: the zodiac letters, and I showed these, I line these
Speaker 2: all up in I think it's that the afterward of
Speaker 2: exposed and show that there's a strong similarity between the
Speaker 2: handwriting of Ted Kaczynski and the zodiac.
Speaker 8: Now you are a zodiac expert, bile by the ten
Speaker 8: years of research who dedicated to this case. That's at
Speaker 8: the very least. But let's go back to Ted's upbringing.
Speaker 8: As you write born May twenty second, nineteen forty two,
Speaker 8: University of Chicago Hospital. There are some dramatic things that
Speaker 8: I mean a lot of people try to reconstruct history
Speaker 8: and then point to certain things that may have affected,
Speaker 8: in this case, a serial killer's psychological development. But there
Speaker 8: are some great things indicating some very very interesting things.
Speaker 8: Tell us about what you found about Ted's upbringing, and
Speaker 8: then especially some of the dramatic things like when he
Speaker 8: was very very young and his hospitalization now okay.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, we should point out that Ted
Speaker 2: Kazinski is a serial killer. He has been convicted and
Speaker 2: pled guilty of being the unibomber. Over eighteen year span,
Speaker 2: he sent or placed sixteen explosive devices and is responsible
Speaker 2: for the death of three people and the injuring of
Speaker 2: at least twenty four others. That said, a lot of
Speaker 2: research has gone into him to figure out what made
Speaker 2: him become the unibomber. Why is he angry, why does
Speaker 2: he have trouble with relationships with other people, why does
Speaker 2: he have this need to kill other people? And why
Speaker 2: did he kill other people? Some of the research has
Speaker 2: taken us back to Ted's childhood. When he was about
Speaker 2: nine months of age, he was rushed to the hospital
Speaker 2: because he had hives over much of his body, and
Speaker 2: at that time he was taken away from his parents.
Speaker 2: Parents were only able to visit him for short visits
Speaker 2: every other day, and his mother tells a very heart
Speaker 2: wrenching story of him crying his eyes out when he's
Speaker 2: being taken away from her and treated at the hospital.
Speaker 2: Quite likely, at that time he was put in restraints
Speaker 2: to his hands and legs were restrained to prevent him
Speaker 2: from scratching these hives, and he was covered in antiseptic
Speaker 2: and who knows what all else was done to him.
Speaker 2: But a lot of people look at that experience in
Speaker 2: his life and suggest that that early experience caused him
Speaker 2: to have a lack of trust in other people. His
Speaker 2: mother described his demeanor when he returned home as being listless,
Speaker 2: and he wouldn't nuzzle with her and was very cold,
Speaker 2: and it seemed like the bond was not there any longer.
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of different interpretations of that experience,
Speaker 2: because Ted himself said, well, look at my mom's journal.
Speaker 2: A week later, he was back to normal. And I
Speaker 2: think his mother even noted in her journal that a
Speaker 2: week later he was back to his normal self and
Speaker 2: was eagerly enthusiastic with other people. And that probably wasn't
Speaker 2: as big as a deal as his mother was trying
Speaker 2: to make out later on. And one of the suggestions
Speaker 2: that Ted made is that the reason that she was
Speaker 2: saying that at that time was to prevent him from
Speaker 2: being put to death and getting the death penalty for
Speaker 2: being the unibomber.
Speaker 8: Right now, you say that the last letter was the
Speaker 8: most revealing in terms of information that would again establish
Speaker 8: or confirm in your mind that Ted Kazinski and the
Speaker 8: Zodiac were one and the same. Early on in the.
Speaker 2: Book, you.
Speaker 8: Talk about what your theory was in terms of how
Speaker 8: could they be the same person. You do a thorough investment, mitigation,
Speaker 8: and we will go through that. But what was the theory,
Speaker 8: just the original one that you espouse about the Zodiac
Speaker 8: and the unibomber and how they could be the same person.
Speaker 8: What was the theory?
Speaker 2: Well, I remember being confronted with that idea and thinking
Speaker 2: it was this most stupid idea in the whole world.
Speaker 2: When I entered into my research back in two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven, two thousand and eight, that's when I made
Speaker 2: the decision to throw myself wholeheartedly behind my studying of
Speaker 2: the case and getting to the bottom of it. I
Speaker 2: expected one of two outcomes. I expected to, at least
Speaker 2: in my own mind, convince myself that Arthur Lee Allen
Speaker 2: was responsible, even if I couldn't prove it, even if
Speaker 2: I didn't have fingerprints or DNA evidence, I would by
Speaker 2: studying the letters, by studying the crime scenes, and studying
Speaker 2: the life of Arthur Lee Allen, I would come to
Speaker 2: know that, yes, Indeed, everything that's been said pre was correct,
Speaker 2: and yes he is the Zodiac serial killer. The police
Speaker 2: just never had enough evidence to convict him. The other
Speaker 2: possibility that I thought was that it would be somebody
Speaker 2: that nobody's ever heard of, and that by studying the letters,
Speaker 2: I'd get an idea of this person's personality and their
Speaker 2: state of mind, their purposes behind what they were doing,
Speaker 2: and kind of who this person was. You know, you
Speaker 2: don't write twenty letters without saying an awful lot about yourself.
Speaker 2: So I assumed that I could dig down to the
Speaker 2: bottom of it and figure out what this person was
Speaker 2: about what who this person was on an emotional level,
Speaker 2: on a personal level, even if I didn't know exactly
Speaker 2: who it was. Well, surprisingly, as I went through my research,
Speaker 2: both of these were incorrect. It wasn't Arthur Lee Allen,
Speaker 2: and it was quite quickly apparent to me that Arthur
Speaker 2: Lee Allen wasn't responsible for the crimes, and it wasn't
Speaker 2: somebody that we'd never heard of before. Arthur Lee Allen,
Speaker 2: I think, was a good suspect back in the sixties
Speaker 2: and seventies, because the police had no other better suspect.
Speaker 2: He was it. They couldn't eliminate him as easily as
Speaker 2: they were able to eliminate other people, and Alan seemed
Speaker 2: to throw the police all kinds of tidbits that implicated
Speaker 2: him as being the Zodiac. He told other people, Hey,
Speaker 2: I'm being investigated for being the Zodiac, or I mean
Speaker 2: investigated because I am the Zodiac. When he ended up
Speaker 2: going to prison for child molestation, he told people he
Speaker 2: was going to prison because he was the Zodiac. Well,
Speaker 2: that kind of attitude. The one thing he did have
Speaker 2: in common with the Zodiac was that he liked needling
Speaker 2: the police. I think that was pretty common back in
Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies that people like to people like
Speaker 2: to denigrate police officers and get on their bad side
Speaker 2: and give them hard time, and look at the police
Speaker 2: forces being the enemies of society, the enemies of freedom.
Speaker 2: So in a lot of ways, the personality of Arsleuthiland
Speaker 2: was similar to that of the Zodiac. But the thing
Speaker 2: that clinched it for me, apart from DNA and fingerprints
Speaker 2: and handwriting, all the things that the police tried to
Speaker 2: implicate him, his personality is all wrong. As I got
Speaker 2: to know the Zodiac through the Zodiac letters, I came
Speaker 2: to see him as cautious and quiet and cerebrals, whereas
Speaker 2: Arthur Lee Allen was brash and loud and boisterous. The
Speaker 2: Zodiac worked very hard to get attention and came up
Speaker 2: with various schemes to get attention from society, from police,
Speaker 2: from newspapers, to get his letters printed. And the sense
Speaker 2: that I got from the Zodiac letters is that this
Speaker 2: is a man who didn't get a lot of attention
Speaker 2: and was quite comfortable fitting into this. That the background
Speaker 2: of any scene, he would be in a room and
Speaker 2: nobody would notice him. He would be quiet, he would
Speaker 2: be very unremarkable. Well, Arthur Lee Allen was just the opposite.
Speaker 2: He'd walk into a room and he'd be loud, and
Speaker 2: he'd be dramatic, and he'd draw attention to himself one
Speaker 2: way or the other. But he carried around knives and
Speaker 2: displayed knives to other people. He was threatening, he was
Speaker 2: He was quite a large man from what I understand,
Speaker 2: and very intimidating, so everybody noticed him when he was
Speaker 2: in a room. People knew he was there. Well, that's
Speaker 2: completely unlike the personality that I got to know of
Speaker 2: being the Zodiac, who was who worked very hard to
Speaker 2: get attention and was very creative in ways he got attention,
Speaker 2: because obviously in his own life he probably did not
Speaker 2: get a whole lot of attention.
Speaker 8: Now we talked about in Hunted, you presented the facts
Speaker 8: of the case, attacks, the letters, the phone calls, police response.
Speaker 8: In Profile, you demonstrated the psychology of serial killers and
Speaker 8: gave it an evidence based criminal profile of the Zodiac himself. Now,
Speaker 8: that have to be incredibly useful when you were trying
Speaker 8: to either corroborate or eliminate the idea the commonalities, the similarities.
Speaker 8: How did you first undertake this comparative methodology that you
Speaker 8: were going to try to see in what way there
Speaker 8: was commonalities and similarities to establish that they were one
Speaker 8: and the same person.
Speaker 2: Well, the way I've come to look at it now
Speaker 2: is in the book Hunted, a very reasoned story of
Speaker 2: the Zodiac serial killer. All of the details that I
Speaker 2: could find from primary sources without bias, without trying to
Speaker 2: incriminate one particular person or slant the evidence a certain way,
Speaker 2: And numerous occasions I didn't know the difference between several
Speaker 2: competing stories, and so I included them all as there
Speaker 2: was different evidence that pointed different directions. I just included
Speaker 2: it all and let the readers make their own mind up.
Speaker 2: The way I've come to understand Hunted was that was
Speaker 2: my effort to break the case down into little pieces.
Speaker 2: Profile my second book of the trilogy, which came out
Speaker 2: about a year ago, was my attempt to analyze those pieces.
Speaker 2: Once I've broken the case down, I put together a
Speaker 2: profile of who I thought the Zodiac should be based
Speaker 2: on FBI principles and FBI research into the whole area
Speaker 2: of serial killers in exposed my third book, which comes
Speaker 2: out tomorrow. It may be available by the end of
Speaker 2: this broadcast on Amazon. That was my attempt to put
Speaker 2: the case back together again, put all the pieces back
Speaker 2: together in a cohesive hole that made sense. And for me,
Speaker 2: there was only one way to do that, and that
Speaker 2: is to understand as Ted Kazinsky is being responsible for
Speaker 2: the attacks of the Zodiac serial killer. I tell a
Speaker 2: story in such a way that inexposed you can't really
Speaker 2: understand the Zodiac without equating it with Ted Kazinski. There's
Speaker 2: so many pieces of evidence within the case that don't
Speaker 2: make a lot of sense or leave a lot of
Speaker 2: questions unanswered. When you identified Ted Kazinsky as being the Zodiac.
Speaker 2: Suddenly it all makes sense. I was asked a couple
Speaker 2: of weeks ago, what was my first indication or when
Speaker 2: did I have that Eureka moment that I knew it
Speaker 2: was Ted Kazinsky. Well, there was never any big moment.
Speaker 2: It was the process of eleven years of research. Little
Speaker 2: by little, it kind of came out in retrosp I
Speaker 2: can look back and say that I realized that there
Speaker 2: are a lot of minor questions of the case that
Speaker 2: had to be answered. Everybody wants to know who is
Speaker 2: the Zodiac, but there are a lot of smaller questions
Speaker 2: I was not able to answer and hunted or profiled
Speaker 2: questions such as where did the Zodiac get his name from?
Speaker 2: Why do we call him the Zodiac? Every other serial
Speaker 2: killer when they have a moniker given to them by
Speaker 2: the press or by themselves, we know what it means.
Speaker 2: We know Jack the Ripper, or the East Side Rapist,
Speaker 2: or the Son of Sam. We know where these names
Speaker 2: came from and what it meant. The Zodiac is alone
Speaker 2: in having a name as a serial killer, and nobody
Speaker 2: knows precisely where it came from. Some questions like that
Speaker 2: little by little began to be answered in Ted Kazinski.
Speaker 2: Another example is the phrase collecting slaves for the afterlife.
Speaker 2: People have looked at that for fifty years now and said,
Speaker 2: what does that mean? Where does it come from? It's
Speaker 2: obviously a euphemism for killing people, but why use those words? Well,
Speaker 2: that phrase takes on meeting when we understand that Ted
Speaker 2: Kozinski wrote it. Each of those words and phrases is
Speaker 2: very significant for Ted's philosophy of life and his wording
Speaker 2: of his Unibomber manifesto.
Speaker 8: You talked about collecting slaves for the afterlife and the
Speaker 8: origins of the Zodiac name. So tell us why, unlike
Speaker 8: other people that were given the name, what is the
Speaker 8: origin of the Zodiac name?
Speaker 2: The name first appeared in the more Material Letter in
Speaker 2: August nineteen sixty nine. The Zodiac started his letter off
Speaker 2: by saying, this is the Zodiac speaking, which is kind
Speaker 2: of an odd phrase because it's in a letter. He
Speaker 2: wasn't speaking, he was writing. And the known instances where
Speaker 2: the Zodiac actually talked to people, the two telephone calls
Speaker 2: he made into police departments, or when he spent any
Speaker 2: time I'm with his victims, He never as far as
Speaker 2: we know, used the word zodiac and said I'm the
Speaker 2: zodiac or this is the zodiac speaking, when he actually
Speaker 2: was speaking. Now, he only wrote it, and it had
Speaker 2: such an impact on the community after the more material
Speaker 2: letter that he used it in virtually every succeeding letter
Speaker 2: after that. He began with the word name, this is
Speaker 2: the zodiac speaking. Well, what it means is if you
Speaker 2: remove the words this is the zodiac speaking, you shuffle
Speaker 2: those letters around, you get a near exact anagram of
Speaker 2: Theodore Kazinski, PhD. And I was not the first one
Speaker 2: to notice that. I had read it in other places,
Speaker 2: and I was actually quite stunned to read that, because
Speaker 2: if that's the case, that answers the question of where
Speaker 2: the name comes from, all of these different views, all
Speaker 2: of these different ideas are completely wrong. Here's a guy
Speaker 2: who's anagramming his name and putting it in the letter. Well,
Speaker 2: if that's the case, I wanted to take a second
Speaker 2: look at all of the letters and look for other
Speaker 2: embedded information. And it turns out that in a number
Speaker 2: of letters he anagrammed his name or some some version
Speaker 2: of his name, so that his name appears in virtually
Speaker 2: every letter that he wrote, So, if you are a
Speaker 2: serial killer and you're fascinated with the name Theodor Kazinski,
Speaker 2: and you play around with it and you try to
Speaker 2: come up with different wording, different combinations, it's interesting what
Speaker 2: you can come with. Come up with mask the sound
Speaker 2: of your cruising, I am not sick, I am insane.
Speaker 2: Search the park properly. Instead. You look at some of
Speaker 2: these phrases, and they are near anagrams of Theodor Kazinski.
Speaker 2: In the way in which they are placed in the letter,
Speaker 2: it's kind of telling that this is a guy who
Speaker 2: was fascinated with his name, was playing with his name,
Speaker 2: and was taunting the police not only by sending letters,
Speaker 2: but by embedding his name in virtually every one of
Speaker 2: his letters. And that even goes back to earlier letters
Speaker 2: the Baits letters that are only eight words long. People
Speaker 2: have questioned why a killer would send a letter that's
Speaker 2: only eight words long. He sent it in three copies
Speaker 2: to three different destinations. What was the point of that,
Speaker 2: And those eight words didn't provide any new information or
Speaker 2: any clarity on the case. What's the point. Well, if
Speaker 2: he looked very closely in one of the letters, you
Speaker 2: see very clearly Theodore dh Odre and vertically you can
Speaker 2: make out I am I apostrophe m so in this
Speaker 2: letter he was taunting the police by saying I'm Theodore,
Speaker 2: but you don't even know my name is in the letter.
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Speaker 8: Now let's get to we didn't talk about Ted Kazinski's
Speaker 8: incredible IQ and his behavior in school, elementary school and
Speaker 8: in high school where he saved in an elementary school,
Speaker 8: he had behavioral problems. So as you do in the book,
Speaker 8: talk about some of the things that characterized Ted Kazinski's
Speaker 8: life that his brother got to see and other people
Speaker 8: that knew him and went to school with him could
Speaker 8: see as his character well.
Speaker 2: Tedents growing up with a prodigy. He was recognized for
Speaker 2: having a very high IQ, for being very dedicated, very
Speaker 2: serious and wanting to achieve things. His father had a
Speaker 2: family friends and give him an IQ test and came
Speaker 2: up with an IQ of one hundred and sixty eight,
Speaker 2: which is a phenomenally high IQ, with one hundred being average.
Speaker 2: One hundred and sixty eight that's far beyond a genius level,
Speaker 2: that's in the upper echelons. He was so smart that
Speaker 2: he skipped two grades of school, one in elementary school
Speaker 2: and one in high school. So he ended up being
Speaker 2: accepted at Harvard at sixteen years of age, one of
Speaker 2: the youngest entrants into Harvard University. He got his master's
Speaker 2: and PhD in mathematics following that at the University of Michigan,
Speaker 2: and became one of Berkeley, California's youngest professors when he
Speaker 2: began to teach in the mathematics department in nineteen sixty seven.
Speaker 2: So here's a guy who was phenomenally intelligent, but at
Speaker 2: the same time he had a lot of behavioral problems.
Speaker 2: He had a very difficult time relating to other people, partly,
Speaker 2: I think because of his IQ, but there's also an
Speaker 2: indication that he suffered a certain amount of he was
Speaker 2: on the spectrum of autism. He has been noted by
Speaker 2: some people to have Asperger's syndrome, which is a very
Speaker 2: mild form of autism, and part of that is being
Speaker 2: unable to read the cues of other people, the nonverbal
Speaker 2: cues that all people use to talk with each other,
Speaker 2: so that when somebody's being sarcastic with Ted, he has
Speaker 2: a very difficult time understanding that because he takes the
Speaker 2: words very literally. Why are you saying these nasty things
Speaker 2: about me, No, I'm just joking. It's just I'm just
Speaker 2: kidding with you. Oh oh, I understand. So he has
Speaker 2: a very difficult time relating. And if somebody is bothered
Speaker 2: by him and they have a surprised expression on their
Speaker 2: face or an angered expression on their face, he can't
Speaker 2: read that. All he can do is listen to the
Speaker 2: words of other people and try to make sense of
Speaker 2: what it is that they're trying to say and where
Speaker 2: it is that they're coming from. So on an emotional level,
Speaker 2: he's completely out of touch with other people. When he
Speaker 2: was in elementary school, he had some behavioral problems. He
Speaker 2: was causing difficulties in the classroom, and that's when he
Speaker 2: was tested for his IQ, and that that's when they decided, well,
Speaker 2: maybe he isn't being challenged in us to let move
Speaker 2: him ahead in school. What the result of that was
Speaker 2: is a very intelligent person who was even further alienated
Speaker 2: from his class because she's a year younger than all
Speaker 2: of his classmates. And then by the end of high school,
Speaker 2: he's two years younger than the people in the same class,
Speaker 2: and emotionally he was even younger than that.
Speaker 8: You talk about too, that during the second year he
Speaker 8: was selected to participate in a psychology psychological study overseen
Speaker 8: by doctor Murray. Tell us a little bit about this, well,
Speaker 8: this experiment that he might have been involved in.
Speaker 2: He was involved in the experiment. He was selected to
Speaker 2: be part of this Pride jecta's research project, and he
Speaker 2: did that for almost the entire approximately three years of
Speaker 2: his four years of undergraduate studies. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: unanswered questions about the study because while there was a
Speaker 2: congression congressional investigation into it back in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 2: and it appears that people were being subjected to unreasonable
Speaker 2: expectations and demands in this and other projects related to
Speaker 2: the mk Ultra program, and it appears that mk Ultra
Speaker 2: in part funded this investigation that Ted Kazinski was part of.
Speaker 2: One of the reasons that he was involved in this
Speaker 2: research is because he's an alienated student. Murray wanted to
Speaker 2: study outcasts, the outsiders, people who did not fit in socially,
Speaker 2: and of the twenty two participants, Ted was identified as
Speaker 2: the most outcast, the most socially isolated, and mentally disturbed
Speaker 2: at some level, of all of the twenty two people.
Speaker 2: Once he was arrested as the Unibomber. People began to
Speaker 2: research into what was going on back then, and I
Speaker 2: did this participant? Did this have something to do with
Speaker 2: Ted Kazinski becoming the unibomber becoming a serial killer? And
Speaker 2: so there are still questions outstanding in that.
Speaker 8: Do you talk about nineteen that he has this psychological meltdown?
Speaker 8: Tell us about what precipitates this.
Speaker 2: Well, let me take a look at the timeline between
Speaker 2: Ted Kazinski and the Zodiac. I think that may be
Speaker 2: the most helpful way to look at the situation. In
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six, Ted Kazinsky had an emotional and philosophical breakdown.
Speaker 2: These are his works words when he was questioned by
Speaker 2: a court appointed psychologist. When in nineteen ninety seven and
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, Ted was talking about representing himself, firing
Speaker 2: his lawyers, and acting as his own lawyer, the court
Speaker 2: appointed a psychologist to study him to gain an understanding
Speaker 2: of his mental health and whether he was fit to
Speaker 2: be his own lawyer. So all he had reason to
Speaker 2: cooperate with the court, and at that time he indicated
Speaker 2: to doctor Sally Johnson that he indeed, in nineteen sixty six,
Speaker 2: had a mental and emotional breakdown and that affected him
Speaker 2: and put him on a course for becoming a unibomber.
Speaker 2: His word, this is what he told us. Well, that
Speaker 2: was in nineteen sixty six, but he didn't place his
Speaker 2: first bomb until twelve years later in nineteen seventy eight.
Speaker 2: Questions are what was he doing for those twelve years
Speaker 2: of why didn't he turn to murder at a much
Speaker 2: earlier age. At the same time, when Ted Kazinski was
Speaker 2: arrested for being the Unibomber in nineteen ninety six, investigators
Speaker 2: were quite surprised at his age because virtually every profile
Speaker 2: of the unibomber prior to Kazinski's arrest said that in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five nineteen ninety six, the unibomber would be
Speaker 2: approximately forty years of age. That was a pretty easy
Speaker 2: calculation to make because serial killers start their work almost
Speaker 2: invariably between the ages of eighteen and twenty five. So
Speaker 2: you add eighteen to twenty five years on to the
Speaker 2: beginning of the unibomb crime spree, which is in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy eight, investigators are looking for somebody approximately forty years
Speaker 2: of age. In nineteen ninety six, when Ted Kozinski was arrested,
Speaker 2: he was fifty three. Well, why the age discrepancy and
Speaker 2: why did the Unibomber start killing in nineteen seventy eight
Speaker 2: when he was approaching forty years of age himself already?
Speaker 2: That's unusual, That's notably strange among serial killers. At the
Speaker 2: same time, in nineteen seventy four, the Zodiac disappeared. The
Speaker 2: Zodiac began killing in nineteen sixty six, and in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty nine converted to becoming a letter writer instead of
Speaker 2: a killer as far as we know, and then sent
Speaker 2: the last of his authenticated letters in nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 2: Where did the Zodiac go?
Speaker 8: Well?
Speaker 2: Identifying Ted Kazinski as the Zodiac explains number one where
Speaker 2: the Zodiac went and number two why Ted Kazinski started
Speaker 2: his career as the Unibomber at such an old age
Speaker 2: as far as serial killers go. Nineteen sixty six, Ted
Speaker 2: Kazinski was in California interviewing to find a job as
Speaker 2: a professor. He eventually became a professor at u C.
Speaker 2: Berkeley in their math department. I was not able to
Speaker 2: find out precisely where else Ted Kaczynski may have interviewed
Speaker 2: in California, but he may have been down in Riverside
Speaker 2: as well. Nineteen sixty six we see the murder of
Speaker 2: Cherry Jobates. We see the confession letter. A month later,
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven, Ted was in California to begin
Speaker 2: his career as a professor. It's nineteen sixty seven in April.
Speaker 2: That's when we see the Bates letters that were sent
Speaker 2: to Riverside Overside Police Department and the father of Baits.
Speaker 2: Ted was a professor from sixty seven to sixty nine.
Speaker 2: During those two years, there were no telephone calls, no letters,
Speaker 2: and there was a single murder, that of the Lake
Speaker 2: Herman Road murder December twenty, nineteen sixty eight, that occurred
Speaker 2: during Ted Kazky's Christmas break from being a professor. It
Speaker 2: was kind of surprising that the zodiac referred to December
Speaker 2: twenty as being last Christmas. Who talks about December twenty
Speaker 2: is being Christmas, other than somebody who has a extended
Speaker 2: Christmas break where Christmas would also encompass December twenty. Ted's
Speaker 2: last day of being professor at UC Berkeley was June
Speaker 2: the thirtieth, nineteen sixty nine. Four days later, we have
Speaker 2: the murder at Blue Rock Springs. The attack on Sarin
Speaker 2: and Mijaux. Following Ted's time as a professor. After his
Speaker 2: last day of being a professor, there are two years
Speaker 2: in his life for which he cannot be very well
Speaker 2: accounted for. He gave his parents address in Lombard, Illinois
Speaker 2: as his home address, but he didn't spend all of
Speaker 2: this time there. Questions are still around today what was
Speaker 2: he doing during those two years? Well, during those two
Speaker 2: lost years of Ted Kazinski, we have the murder at
Speaker 2: Blue Rock Springs, the three part letters of the four
Speaker 2: to eight cipher, the murder at Lake Barriessa, the more
Speaker 2: material letter, the murder of Stein, the Stein Letter, the
Speaker 2: all of the letters that took place over those next
Speaker 2: two years, which were the bulk of the Zodiac letters.
Speaker 2: The final letter during that two year period was the
Speaker 2: letter to the La Times, which was the last time
Speaker 2: that the Zodiac used the phrase this is the Zodiac speaking,
Speaker 2: and the last time the Zodiac used the crosschair symbol
Speaker 2: to identify himself. That was I believe it was March
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one. Why is that signific again, because in
Speaker 2: a couple of months June of nineteen seventy one, Ted
Speaker 2: Gazunski moves to Montana and begins to build his cabin
Speaker 2: and lived in Montana that few months. Once once Ted
Speaker 2: moved to Montana, never again did the Zodiac write a
Speaker 2: letter that had the phrase this is the Zodiac speaking,
Speaker 2: or ever write a letter again that used the crosshair symbol.
Speaker 8: Tell us what you think, well, tell us your theory
Speaker 8: on why the Zodiac or where why the Zodiac morphed
Speaker 8: into the unibomber.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously he didn't get what he was attempting to get,
Speaker 2: as the Zodiac By the end of the crimes breed
Speaker 2: the murders, when they petered out and the letters they
Speaker 2: eventually petered out, people became less and less interested in him.
Speaker 2: They saw him as some crazy person who was going
Speaker 2: around killing people and writing letters. As time went on,
Speaker 2: the letters became more and more bizarre. Time the La
Speaker 2: Times letter was sent in nineteen seventy one, he wasn't
Speaker 2: even writing to the Bay area papers anymore because they
Speaker 2: weren't giving him the press coverage that he'd been receiving earlier.
Speaker 2: They started to ignore him. They decided to not print
Speaker 2: his letters to see what would happen, and sure enough,
Speaker 2: it bothered him very much. The letters weren't being printed,
Speaker 2: so he sent the letter down to Los Angeles and
Speaker 2: even complained in that letter about not getting front page
Speaker 2: coverage that he had previously been getting in the Bay Area.
Speaker 2: So it seems that the crime spree of the Zodiac
Speaker 2: kind of ran its course. The Zodiac apparently didn't commit suicide,
Speaker 2: and apparently did get arrested on other crimes. He just
Speaker 2: stopped being the Zodiac because he wasn't getting what he wanted,
Speaker 2: which was that attention. I contend and I make the
Speaker 2: case in exposed that as the Zodiac ted, Kazinski was
Speaker 2: attempting to in dramatic fashion, as a type of performance art,
Speaker 2: the dangers of industrialization, where in the manifesto he says
Speaker 2: industrialization has been a disaster for humankind. As the Zodiac,
Speaker 2: he was attempting to act this out by showing that
Speaker 2: he playing the part of industrialization, was taking people's lives,
Speaker 2: was collecting slaves for the afterlife, was bringing great damage
Speaker 2: and great harm to society. He hoped somehow that people
Speaker 2: would make that connection and realized that he was trying
Speaker 2: to make a point. He worked very hard in his
Speaker 2: letters to try to give the idea that what he
Speaker 2: was doing was supposed to be understood as lighthearted and
Speaker 2: funny and something with a double meaning. His use of
Speaker 2: the word doubles, his attack on couples, his use of
Speaker 2: cards that had kind of corny puns to them, all
Speaker 2: gave the idea that he was trying to communicate to
Speaker 2: people that he was speaking trying to send a double message. Finally,
Speaker 2: when the entire spree was misunderstood, and how could it
Speaker 2: be understood any differently, people understood it for what it was,
Speaker 2: which was sheer horror, incredible carnage, destruction of people's lives,
Speaker 2: the destruction of families, something that apparently ted Kazinski didn't
Speaker 2: understand the emotional impact that that would have, so that
Speaker 2: his message would not be received. Finally, in the Exorcist letter,
Speaker 2: he uses the phrase satirical comedy. He uses it in
Speaker 2: talk talking about the movie The Exorcists. But I believe
Speaker 2: what he was trying to say was, look, people, what
Speaker 2: I'm doing is supposed to be understood as satire. What
Speaker 2: I'm doing is supposed to be understood as comedic. But
Speaker 2: by that time, you know, people did not understand it
Speaker 2: as such. So he pulled back, reviewed what he was
Speaker 2: doing and what went wrong and decided as well, if
Speaker 2: I'm going to do this over again, once I'm in Montana,
Speaker 2: once I'm far away from the Bay Area, once I'm
Speaker 2: completely separated from this crime spree, I need to start
Speaker 2: another crimes communicate to people in a much more scholarly fashion,
Speaker 2: and that's the genesis of the un Obamber manifesto. But
Speaker 2: I should say that all of this is a complete
Speaker 2: russe on the part of the Zodiac, because that wasn't
Speaker 2: his reason for killing. And the same with the unibomber.
Speaker 2: He said that he killed to alert people to the
Speaker 2: dangers of industrialization. Well that's laughably not true. Just because
Speaker 2: you have a strong message doesn't mean that you have
Speaker 2: reason to go out and kill people to get your
Speaker 2: message heard. In fact, Ted Kaczynski placed bombs and sent
Speaker 2: bombs for seventeen years before saying a word about being
Speaker 2: concerned about the industrialization problem. John Douglas, the FBI profiler,
Speaker 2: said that when the Zodiac went when the Unibomber went
Speaker 2: quiet between nineteen eighty seven and nineteen ninety three, he
Speaker 2: retreated because his composite picture had been created and circulated
Speaker 2: and really scared him. But not only would he spend
Speaker 2: time in proving the quality of his bombs, he would
Speaker 2: also spend time in his justification for what he was doing.
Speaker 2: And so it was at the end of that time
Speaker 2: that he came out and said, well, yeah, by the way,
Speaker 2: this is why I'm doing it. It's because I'm concerned
Speaker 2: about the industrialization problem. True truth is Ted Kazinski killed
Speaker 2: people because he liked killing people. He enjoyed doing that.
Speaker 2: In the words of the Zodiac, I like killing people
Speaker 2: because it's so much fun. Those words could be written
Speaker 2: exactly by Ted Kazinski as well, because that was his
Speaker 2: real reason for killing.
Speaker 8: You also talk about the real reason as well and
Speaker 8: underlying not to excuse, but he was very, very interested
Speaker 8: after he had his mathematical mathematical papers published in peer
Speaker 8: reviewed journals that he did not in the end, I
Speaker 8: guess we're jumping a little bit ahead. That he didn't
Speaker 8: want to be regarded as insane in blocking his lawyer's
Speaker 8: attempts to depict him as such. Adamantly, part of the
Speaker 8: reason you cite as him morphing into the unibomber was
Speaker 8: that he thought that people regarded again misunderstood what his
Speaker 8: intentions were and his justifications were, but also that they
Speaker 8: might regard him as as insane, and that was something
Speaker 8: that he really did not want to have as a
Speaker 8: sort of a notion from people, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And in fact, that's why he did such a
Speaker 2: good job of separating himself from being the Zodiac. People
Speaker 2: have said, well, you know, if he was a Zodiac,
Speaker 2: it should have appeared in his writings, and it should
Speaker 2: have been there should have been evidence of it in
Speaker 2: his cabin once he was arrested. Well, he was arrested
Speaker 2: close to twenty five years after the Zodiac killings. He
Speaker 2: had plenty of time to get rid of all of
Speaker 2: the stuff that implicated him. And the motive behind that
Speaker 2: is because he did not want to be seen as crazy.
Speaker 2: He wanted people to believe that the reason he killed
Speaker 2: was because of his philosophical position and his concern for
Speaker 2: the world. Is concerned for other people, And if you
Speaker 2: read the manifesto very carefully, you realize that he's trying
Speaker 2: to convince people of his ways, but he's being very
Speaker 2: manipulative about it. He's telling about how he's concerned about
Speaker 2: the environment. Well, he wasn't really concerned about the environment.
Speaker 2: In the manifesto, he makes it very clear that he
Speaker 2: talks about the environment only when he talks about how
Speaker 2: to convince other people of his position. So he is
Speaker 2: throwing in popular ideas such as environmentalism and freedom to
Speaker 2: convince other people that he's one of them and that
Speaker 2: they can join his movement or whatever, because it's a
Speaker 2: reasonable belief system. But the truth is Ted Consinky never
Speaker 2: gave a care about the environment whatsoever. When he was
Speaker 2: living in Montana. He polluted probate public lands, he polluted
Speaker 2: private lands, he abused his neighbors, he was involved in
Speaker 2: hunting out of season. He did not care about the
Speaker 2: environment whatsoever. He was quite a narcissist. So any idea
Speaker 2: that he's being honest about that, it's just completely unreasonable.
Speaker 8: You talked about literary forensics, and maybe you can explain
Speaker 8: what you mean by that in this regard, and also
Speaker 8: you cite a book by Joseph Conrad, author a novel
Speaker 8: called The Secret Agent.
Speaker 2: Tell us a.
Speaker 8: Little bit about the literary forensics and what you mean
Speaker 8: by that and the influence of the book The Secret Agent.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm putting a case together against Ted Kaczynski. I
Speaker 2: would have loved to have access to fingerprints or DNA,
Speaker 2: but I do not. DNA is kind of the is
Speaker 2: looked on as the holy grail today that we can't
Speaker 2: really convict somebody unless we have DNA proof. We can't
Speaker 2: be certain of the truth. Everybody wants DNA. It's the
Speaker 2: stuff of CSI on TV. It's we feel like we're
Speaker 2: doing an injustice if we're convicting somebody without DNA. But
Speaker 2: I would point out that before nineteen eighty six, we
Speaker 2: put lots of people in prison, and we used a
Speaker 2: lot of different forensic techniques without having DNA, so that
Speaker 2: you know, DNA is not the only way to identify somebody.
Speaker 2: What I offer and exposed is a literary DNA or
Speaker 2: the DNA of words, using that as an tool to
Speaker 2: identify Ted Kazinski. Everybody who uses words uses them differently.
Speaker 2: Now I'm not talking about handwriting, but just the words
Speaker 2: that we use, how we select words, how we put
Speaker 2: them together, how we use grammatical rules. You know, if
Speaker 2: you found a note in my place, you'd be able
Speaker 2: to tell pretty quickly whether I had written it or
Speaker 2: whether my son had written it based on the words
Speaker 2: that we even if we typed it. And Ted's literary
Speaker 2: use of words come through in the Zodiac letters. But
Speaker 2: with this understanding that there was an awful lot of
Speaker 2: staging taking place with the Zodiac letters, the Zodiac didn't
Speaker 2: want to be identified as the person he was behind,
Speaker 2: and he was attempting to conceal his identity. At that time,
Speaker 2: Ted Kaczinski's handwriting and words and ideas were known to
Speaker 2: a few people in California, and so he had to
Speaker 2: be very careful to disguise his handwriting and disguise his ideas.
Speaker 2: Which and that didn't that wasn't true. Twenty five years later,
Speaker 2: when he was hidden in Montana and a few people
Speaker 2: knew or remembered him, he felt that he was free
Speaker 2: to use his own wording and his own ideas and
Speaker 2: speak that very clearly. But as the Zodiac, he had
Speaker 2: reason to conceal him l One of Ted Kazinski's favorite
Speaker 2: childhood books was The Secret Agent by Joseph Conrad. He
Speaker 2: loved that book. He in his own words, told people
Speaker 2: that he had read it at least a dozen times,
Speaker 2: and at one period when he was I believe in
Speaker 2: his twenties, he wrote to his parents and its family
Speaker 2: members who were having a very difficult time trying to
Speaker 2: understand him and what he was doing. He counseled them
Speaker 2: to read The Secret Agent and take special note of
Speaker 2: the character the Professor, because if they read that book
Speaker 2: and they understood the character of the Professor in Joseph
Speaker 2: Conrad The Secret Agent, then somehow they would be able
Speaker 2: to understand him and understand his odd life choices. While
Speaker 2: I took a very close look at the story the
Speaker 2: novel The Secret Agent and found an incredible wealth of
Speaker 2: literary evidence that the person who read that book, the
Speaker 2: person who knew that book forward and backwards, was also
Speaker 2: the person who wrote the Zodiac Letters. And I include
Speaker 2: dozens and dozens of vocabulary words, some of them not
Speaker 2: very not very trivial, that occur both in The Secret
Speaker 2: Agent and The Zodiac Letters. But the similarities are far
Speaker 2: beyond just the vocabulary, different phrases, grammatical structures, uses of punctuation,
Speaker 2: a lot of There's a lot of similarity between The
Speaker 2: Secret Agent and the Zodiac Letters. And I believe that
Speaker 2: at some point it will be understood, it will rise
Speaker 2: to the level of a forensic match, not just oh, look,
Speaker 2: here are some similarities. The absolute breadth and depths of
Speaker 2: the similarities show that the person who wrote the Zodiac
Speaker 2: Letters was very familiar with the book The Secret Agent.
Speaker 8: You have beyond those aspects that you mentioned in commonalities,
Speaker 8: you also had striking similarities in say, the interaction they
Speaker 8: had with the media, and then the similarities in the
Speaker 8: demanding nature and some of the responses afterward. In terms
Speaker 8: of explain what you mean in terms of the patterns
Speaker 8: that were established with the Zodiac or repeated with the
Speaker 8: Unibomber in terms of interaction with newspapers and.
Speaker 2: Media, that's a very broad question or elics, it's a
Speaker 2: very broad answer. I wish I had time to put
Speaker 2: together an answer to that question, but I think in
Speaker 2: the number of chapters of Exposed, I point out that
Speaker 2: there are extreme similarities, many many similarities between the Zodiac's
Speaker 2: crime spree, the Zodiacs and the later of the Unibomber,
Speaker 2: such things as writing letters to the press, demanding publication,
Speaker 2: threatening with bombs, demanding to be printed or else, or else,
Speaker 2: the commission of murder, those type of things in a
Speaker 2: lot of ways, Ted Kaczynski is the Unibomber repeated a
Speaker 2: lot of what had worked with the Zodiac. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: would like to be able to enumerate them, because there
Speaker 2: are literally dozens. The way that the unibomb attacks were
Speaker 2: carried out, the letter, a letter that was sent to
Speaker 2: a previous victim, a lot of different ways he repeated
Speaker 2: what he had done as the zodiac.
Speaker 8: You outlined some of the reasons why people have said
Speaker 8: that they can't be the same a change of MO.
Speaker 8: You talk about a evolving mom or many people change
Speaker 8: their MO. You talk about a signature being more important.
Speaker 8: Maybe just there's so much that we could go in
Speaker 8: here in terms of comparisons. You've done a very thorough,
Speaker 8: very incredibly thorough examination to show us all the commonalities,
Speaker 8: all the similarities, all the evidence, the circumstantial evidence that
Speaker 8: shows that these two people are the same people. Maybe
Speaker 8: you can just discuss signature because I think people talk
Speaker 8: about that and an MO quite a bit, and you
Speaker 8: do address that.
Speaker 2: No, Well, thank you for your kind words, Dan, I
Speaker 2: do appreciate that. Now that the Golden State killer has
Speaker 2: been arrested and is in prison, allegedly the police believe
Speaker 2: they have a case against Joseph Dangelo, we come to
Speaker 2: realize that individuals can have more than one career. D
Speaker 2: Angelo is apparently linked by DNA and responsible for being
Speaker 2: the east Side Rapist, for being the the Salia ransacker,
Speaker 2: and being the original Nightstalker, three completely different crime sprees,
Speaker 2: all carried out by one person. And I also noted
Speaker 2: in my book that Paul Bernardo up in Canada was
Speaker 2: the Scarborough rapist before he moved to a location a
Speaker 2: couple of hours away and became a serial killer. So
Speaker 2: that people can and do have multiple careers as serial killers.
Speaker 2: It's not unheard of, and it's it's it's not I
Speaker 2: wouldn't say it's common, but it does happen, and so
Speaker 2: it's understandable that Ted Kaczinski did the work of the
Speaker 2: Zodiac until he realized it wasn't working anymore. He wasn't
Speaker 2: getting what he once got and he had to do
Speaker 2: something different. So that an mo the way the procedures
Speaker 2: that people put into place to accomplish something can change
Speaker 2: from not only attack to attack, but from crime spree
Speaker 2: to crime spree, giving the indication that it's two different people.
Speaker 2: But what's the same from crime to crime As a
Speaker 2: criminal signature, the criminal signature is what an individual does
Speaker 2: to what he does, what he brings to the crime
Speaker 2: spree himself, what he does to get from the crime
Speaker 2: what it is that he's trying to get. So the
Speaker 2: criminal may try different aspects, even try different careers as
Speaker 2: different serial killers or different crimes brees, but what they're
Speaker 2: trying to get out of the crimes remains the same.
Speaker 2: So with Paul Bernardo, he was attempting to control and
Speaker 2: he was attempting to take care of sexual needs by
Speaker 2: first raping women and then a couple of years later
Speaker 2: by raping and then killing them in the same way.
Speaker 2: The Zodiac appears to have taken a step back after
Speaker 2: nearly being caught, after Paul Stein converting to becoming a
Speaker 2: letter writer for several years until that petered out because
Speaker 2: he wasn't killing people anymore as far as anybody knew,
Speaker 2: and then retooled to become the Unibommer to once again
Speaker 2: carry out activities to give him what he was looking for,
Speaker 2: and that was control over other people and a way
Speaker 2: to express his anger and frustration through killing people.
Speaker 8: You say that there was many things that were possible.
Speaker 8: We alluded to it in the synopsis of the book,
Speaker 8: that FBI had an opportunity to look closer at the
Speaker 8: evidence in the cabin itself. You say he had lots
Speaker 8: of time to get rid of key crucial pieces of evidence,
Speaker 8: but still to look at that evidence. Tell us why
Speaker 8: the FBI didn't And what do you think they could
Speaker 8: have seen if they examined that more closely and thought
Speaker 8: of the Zodiac when they were looking at that information.
Speaker 2: Well, I talked to ay FBI agent recently who was
Speaker 2: convinced that Ted Kazinski is not the Zodiac, and that's
Speaker 2: one of the things he pointed to. He said, well,
Speaker 2: there was nothing in the cabin that pointed toward him
Speaker 2: being the Zodiak serial killer. But the truth is, if
Speaker 2: you look much more closely, you realize that if even
Speaker 2: given the fact that he tried to distance himself from
Speaker 2: being the Zodiac, there was plenty of evidence within the
Speaker 2: cabin that gives us the indication that he was responsible.
Speaker 2: The three things that I point out and exposed are disguises.
Speaker 2: You know what disguises did the unibomber used. Well, he
Speaker 2: used a hood and he used sunglasses, precisely what the
Speaker 2: Zodiac used Atlake Berry Yessa. So that when the cabin
Speaker 2: was inventoried, we find the same type of disguises, even
Speaker 2: if we didn't find the actual hood and the actual
Speaker 2: sunglasses used by the Zodiac. We find the same type
Speaker 2: of disguises. Secondly, we find guns and knives. Guns and
Speaker 2: knives are precisely what we're used by the Zodiac. We
Speaker 2: also found in the cabin codes coded material, disguises, weapons
Speaker 2: and codes. Those three are precisely what we would expect
Speaker 2: to find if we were to look at the Zodiac,
Speaker 2: if we were to inventory the Zodiac's living situation. Well,
Speaker 2: compare that to every other serial killer who has been
Speaker 2: caught and whose residence has been explored and searched, such
Speaker 2: as Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy, or any other
Speaker 2: serial killer that you can think of. None of these
Speaker 2: had the same type of material that we would expect
Speaker 2: from the Zodiac. None of these others John Wayne Gacy
Speaker 2: didn't have hoods or sunglasses, he didn't have knives and guns,
Speaker 2: he didn't have codes. In fact, I don't know if
Speaker 2: any other serial killer who was arrested, ever found, ever
Speaker 2: showed evidence of having codes in his home. Well, Ted
Speaker 2: Kazinski had all of the same type of things that
Speaker 2: we would expect from the Zodiac. In addition to that,
Speaker 2: I had access to the library of Ted Kazinski's that
Speaker 2: was removed from the cabin when he was arrested and
Speaker 2: his cabin was inventoried, approximately two hundred and forty books
Speaker 2: were taken out of that cabin. I have had opportunities
Speaker 2: to look at those books and have found that in
Speaker 2: the margins, Ted Kazinski wrote a number of sentences or
Speaker 2: editorials or whatever what scholars called marginalia. Ted Kazinski's marginalia
Speaker 2: gives evidence that it was written by the Zodiac serial killer.
Speaker 8: Now, you said you spoke to an agent recently that
Speaker 8: didn't believe that was true, And we talked about DNA
Speaker 8: being this golden standard. Of course, very very hard to
Speaker 8: obtain when people didn't think of DNA back a long
Speaker 8: time ago. So you talk about what could be done,
Speaker 8: and you talk about DNA as well, and then you
Speaker 8: talk about the request for DNA from Ted Kazinski, but
Speaker 8: with the restrictions therein tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Well. I find it absolutely shocking that twenty two years
Speaker 2: after the arrest of Ted Kazinski, his DNA has never
Speaker 2: been collected. I mean, that's just stunning, because he is
Speaker 2: one of the worst domestic terrorists in American history, responsible
Speaker 2: for three deaths and a eighteen your career as the unibomber.
Speaker 2: At the time, it was the most expensive manhunt carried
Speaker 2: out by the FBI. It cost them approximately seventy million
Speaker 2: dollars to eventually find him, and that sum was only
Speaker 2: superseded by the search for Bin Laden after the attacks
Speaker 2: at nine to eleven. But seventy million dollars to find
Speaker 2: this person and his DNA has never been collected. Part
Speaker 2: of the reason is because back then it wasn't mandatory.
Speaker 2: Once it became mandatory, I guess they felt like he's
Speaker 2: been in prison and he'll never get out, so why bother.
Speaker 2: But I think his DNA needs to be collected, and
Speaker 2: I sure hope that Zodiac DNA is eventually found. It
Speaker 2: may or may not be. I don't know. You know,
Speaker 2: fifty years is a long time. Every few years material
Speaker 2: gets collected. There was a lot of excitement in the
Speaker 2: Zodiac community back in April when the Golden State killed
Speaker 2: was arrested because the news came out that VALEO had
Speaker 2: sent in letters and envelopes to once again look for
Speaker 2: DNA and they said it may not be until June
Speaker 2: that we find the results from from these tests. And
Speaker 2: online there was an awful lot of excitement thinking that
Speaker 2: the Zodiac could be identified just as Joseph Dangelo was.
Speaker 2: But we had heard no news since then that DNA
Speaker 2: has been found or that we're still waiting for news,
Speaker 2: So it may be that DNA is not available at
Speaker 2: this time.
Speaker 8: You talk about Ted's plan to improve upon and reinvent
Speaker 8: himself from the Zodiac what he felt was failed mission
Speaker 8: to communicate, then to to have the kind of respect
Speaker 8: that he wanted. You talk about Ted's plan was to
Speaker 8: go more national and with different targets. Tell us a
Speaker 8: little bit about how you explain to people that are
Speaker 8: doubtful the evolution of the motive from the Zodiac to
Speaker 8: the unibomber and why you can see the evolution.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's an interesting story behind that. When I wrote
Speaker 2: Exposed and turn it into my publisher, he said, well,
Speaker 2: you know this chapter that you've used is the afterword.
Speaker 2: That's really important stuff. We need to put that right
Speaker 2: up front, and then what you put in front is
Speaker 2: not as convincing as what you put in the afterwards.
Speaker 2: We should put this first. Then he shared the book
Speaker 2: with his wife, who was the editor of the one
Speaker 2: of the editors of Exposed, and she said, no, no,
Speaker 2: I find this other chapter over here more convincing. We
Speaker 2: need to put this chapter first. And then my publicist
Speaker 2: got a chance to read and edit the book and
Speaker 2: she said, no, no, this other chapter, this needs to
Speaker 2: be perfers. This is the most compelling evidence. So we
Speaker 2: underdid this and negotiations as to well, what's most compelling,
Speaker 2: and it appears at different people, like different chapters. In
Speaker 2: the end, I said, oh, I don't care, as long
Speaker 2: as all of these chapters are there, and my editor
Speaker 2: proceeded to cut and paste my words beyond all recognition.
Speaker 2: And when I first took a look at it, I said, no,
Speaker 2: we can't. We can't put it like this. This doesn't
Speaker 2: make logical sense. This isn't the order that I presented
Speaker 2: to you in But the more I looked at it,
Speaker 2: the more I thought, you know what, that does make
Speaker 2: a lot of compelling sense the way he did it,
Speaker 2: And it's kind of an unusual structure. Sure, I've kind
Speaker 2: of come to understand. I don't know if you caught this,
Speaker 2: but the book appears to have like four introductions, yeah,
Speaker 2: more forwards where we over the evidence and we tell
Speaker 2: quite clearly exactly where we're going to go. So that
Speaker 2: by the time we start looking at the case, you
Speaker 2: know exactly where we're going to go and exactly how
Speaker 2: we're going to get there. And it's kind of a
Speaker 2: cool structure. And I have to applaud my publisher for
Speaker 2: coming up with the structure, because I never would have
Speaker 2: thought of it, and when I first looked at it,
Speaker 2: I thought it was a really bad idea. But I'm
Speaker 2: quite impressed with it. But anyways, the afterward that I
Speaker 2: thought was kind of a way to tie up the
Speaker 2: book at the end he put first, or he put
Speaker 2: much earlier, and that's pointing out the spectrum of how
Speaker 2: the Zodiac morphed into the Unibomber, and how the Unibomber's
Speaker 2: early days are explained in the Zodiac. I said earlier
Speaker 2: in this interview that what happened to the Zodiac after
Speaker 2: seventy four and what was Ted Kazunski doing during those
Speaker 2: twelve years between when he decided he could become a
Speaker 2: serial killer, when he decided that he could kill anybody
Speaker 2: who wanted to kill, but then waited until nineteen seventy
Speaker 2: eight to become the Unibomber. What was he doing in
Speaker 2: that chapter? I say, well, if the Zodiac didn't die
Speaker 2: and he decided to change and become something different because
Speaker 2: the Zodiac didn't work out for him, what could we
Speaker 2: expect from him? And one of the things, as you
Speaker 2: just mentioned, was he could be expected to again reach
Speaker 2: out and make his message and make his target area
Speaker 2: even larger. Because the Zodiac started in the North Bay,
Speaker 2: then he moved into San Francisco, and toward the end
Speaker 2: of his career, his last letter that said Zodiac in
Speaker 2: it was sent down to Los Angeles, so he was
Speaker 2: expanding his area. We could expect that if the Zodiac
Speaker 2: continued to kill and continue to be a serial killer
Speaker 2: in one to continue that under a different name, he
Speaker 2: would expand beyond California, he would go national and eventually
Speaker 2: make contact with the New York Times, which is precisely
Speaker 2: what the Unibomber did. And I also said that, well,
Speaker 2: if how did the unibomber, how did Ted Kazinski go
Speaker 2: from being a math professor to being a serial killer
Speaker 2: who sent bombs to the mail? Which is kind of
Speaker 2: a weird transition. An intermediate transition might look an awful
Speaker 2: lot like the Zodiac serial killer, somebody who killed with
Speaker 2: knives and guns, somebody who had a very local area
Speaker 2: who began in the environment environment of Berkeley, California, and
Speaker 2: expand it outward to eventually become the Unibomber. So it
Speaker 2: was kind of an interesting way of looking at it.
Speaker 2: And after looking at it that way, it's hard to
Speaker 2: understand the Zodiac apart from the Unibomber, and it's hard
Speaker 2: to understand the Unibomber apart from the Zodiac serial Killer.
Speaker 2: So I make the claim in that chapter that those
Speaker 2: two campaigns are inexorbed, are intertwined with one another.
Speaker 8: Absolutely for those people that don't know, because I had
Speaker 8: heard slightly different stories of exactly how Ted Kazinski was
Speaker 8: finally captured, and you talk about the sister in law.
Speaker 8: Just for those that don't know, tell us what you
Speaker 8: found and how he was captured circumstances.
Speaker 2: The Unobamber was captured soon after the release of the
Speaker 2: un Obomber manifesto. Words were what identified Ted Kazinski in
Speaker 2: the same way that I believe words eventually will identify
Speaker 2: the Zodiac serial killer and identify him as being the
Speaker 2: same person as Ted Kaczynski. Once the manifesto was released,
Speaker 2: the FBI wanted as many people to look at it
Speaker 2: as possible to see if anybody recognized the wording, the phrasing,
Speaker 2: the ideas, And so they made copies of it and
Speaker 2: sent it to ten thousand scholars across the country, and
Speaker 2: none of these scholars, university professors, students, nobody came back
Speaker 2: and said, you know, this reminds me of so and
Speaker 2: so I'll led the dead ends. So the FBI, to
Speaker 2: their wisdom, said we need to accept the unibomber's demands
Speaker 2: and publish this for the public. There's a lot of
Speaker 2: controversy about that. Why would you give into the demands
Speaker 2: of a terrorist he wants his words in print? They
Speaker 2: agreed to do it. They encouraged the State Department to
Speaker 2: go ahead with those plans for the simple reason that
Speaker 2: the more eyes on it, the more chances it would
Speaker 2: be for him him to be caught. And sure enough,
Speaker 2: Ted Kaczinski's sister in law, Linda Patrick, who had never
Speaker 2: met Ted but had read a number of his letters,
Speaker 2: letters that he had sent to his brother. Ted, has
Speaker 2: one sibling, his younger brother, David Kazinski, who's seven and
Speaker 2: a half years younger than Ted. Linda Patrick was in
Speaker 2: Paris at the time and She found the Unibomber manifesto
Speaker 2: online and looked at it. Had no idea that it
Speaker 2: had anything to do with her brother in law. But
Speaker 2: as she read through it, she said to herself, Gee,
Speaker 2: some of these ideas look awfully familiar. I've read this
Speaker 2: stuff before. And so she alerted her husband and said,
Speaker 2: you know, you need to take a look at this. Well.
Speaker 2: David was very resistant to it because he couldn't believe
Speaker 2: that his brother was the Unibomber, because he didn't know
Speaker 2: of any violence in his brother's life. In fact, one
Speaker 2: of the arguments that David going on too was he
Speaker 2: can't be the unibomber. He's too old. The unibomber is
Speaker 2: about forty according to all profiles. My brother's fifty three.
Speaker 2: It couldn't be him. He's too old to be the Unibomber. Anyways,
Speaker 2: with a lot of encouragement from his wife, David eventually
Speaker 2: began to realize that, you know what, there are some similarities.
Speaker 2: They went and contacted lawyers who contacted the FBI, and
Speaker 2: negotiations began. David is a huge hero here because he
Speaker 2: willingly turned his brother in which he had no reason
Speaker 2: to do that. He had no obligation to do that.
Speaker 2: His brother faced the death penalty for his crimes. But
Speaker 2: David was put in the uncomfortable position of, well, if
Speaker 2: I don't do anything, other people could be killed by
Speaker 2: bomb sent to the mail. But if I do do something,
Speaker 2: Ted could end up committing side, he could end up
Speaker 2: with the death penalty. So he didn't have an easy
Speaker 2: outlet here. But he did the right thing, I believe,
Speaker 2: and he turned his brother in and the rest of history.
Speaker 8: You talk about the incredible obsessive, compulsive, obsessive nature that
Speaker 8: he had, and in regards to the bomb making, you
Speaker 8: talk about as many as one hundred hours to create
Speaker 8: these unique bombs. How interesting was it to find that
Speaker 8: much work, that much attention to detail as part of
Speaker 8: his overall personality.
Speaker 2: It's quite interesting. The FBI noted that the bombs could
Speaker 2: have been constructed in as little as ten hours apiece.
Speaker 2: Get the materials together, you put them together, and you
Speaker 2: make a bomb. He spent one hundred hours per bomb
Speaker 2: because he kept taking these contraptions apart and putting him
Speaker 2: back together again in a very loving and tenderly tender way.
Speaker 2: That that gave the FBI an idea that he was
Speaker 2: sexually turned on by the devices he was making. He
Speaker 2: was very impressed with himself and with his creations. And
Speaker 2: that's that's understood because you know, bomb makers tend to
Speaker 2: be very meticulous. People tend to be very detail oriented.
Speaker 2: And interestingly, John Douglas, in describing the Zodiac said, the
Speaker 2: Zodiac was very meticulous. He had the meticulousness of a
Speaker 2: bomb maker. Well, that's not too surprising if it is
Speaker 2: Ted Kazinski. And also the Zodiac sent two bomb diagrams
Speaker 2: through the mail to the police. Something that that that
Speaker 2: really fascinated me is that once Ted Kazinski was was
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Once the Zodiac was spotted after the murder
Speaker 2: of Paul Stein and a composite picture circulated, the Zodiac
Speaker 2: stopped killing. But in his writings he turned to a
Speaker 2: couple of different topics. One was bombs and another was children.
Speaker 2: Both of these figure highly in the career of the Unibomber.
Speaker 2: If you look at the manifesto from beginning to end,
Speaker 2: Ted Kazinski regularly detours to the topic of children, and
Speaker 2: the FBI correctly noted that he wasn't really concerned about
Speaker 2: other children. He was talking about his own troubled childhood.
Speaker 2: This was what was causing him problems, and obviously bomb
Speaker 2: making was very, very crucial to the unibomber.
Speaker 8: As far as psychopathology here, you talk about this. One
Speaker 8: event that I thought was very striking was the he
Speaker 8: had this period when he was under stress at one
Speaker 8: point that he had this unusual arousal that could not
Speaker 8: be abated for weeks or weeks that and I thought
Speaker 8: that was interesting given that a lot of people don't
Speaker 8: see you just mentioned a sexual secondary motive, we'll say,
Speaker 8: or some part of the motivation of the mayhem that
Speaker 8: they inflict.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Earlier on in our conversation Dan, I talked about
Speaker 2: the psychological and philosophic breakdown that Ted Kaczynski underwent in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six. I kind of glossed over that, but
Speaker 2: what specifically happened was that he went through a period
Speaker 2: of time where he felt that he was sexually aroused
Speaker 2: almost every moment of every day, and he felt that
Speaker 2: he had no way of relieving the sexual the sexual tension.
Speaker 2: He was terrified to even talk to a woman, let
Speaker 2: alone create a relationship with one, so that he tried
Speaker 2: to figure out, how am I going to believe this
Speaker 2: sexual tension in my life and how am I going
Speaker 2: to cope with myself? And he came up with this
Speaker 2: really strange solution to his problem. And this is not
Speaker 2: my theory, this is actual Ted Kaczynski's words. He decided
Speaker 2: to get a sex change operation. This was in nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty six, and he decided that to do that he
Speaker 2: had to go to talk to the campus campus doctor
Speaker 2: and explain the situation and say, you know, I think
Speaker 2: I need a sex change operation. And his crazy logic.
Speaker 2: His idea was, well, if I can't touch a woman
Speaker 2: and I can't meet a woman, maybe if I become
Speaker 2: a woman, I can use those sex organs that will
Speaker 2: then be on my body to take care of myself
Speaker 2: or whatever. Which is interesting because in the confession letter,
Speaker 2: the zodiac threatens to attack women cut off or female parts,
Speaker 2: which is precisely what Ted Kazinski was talking about doing
Speaker 2: and getting female parts deposited on his body. Anyways, he
Speaker 2: went to talk to the psychiatrist or the doctor, but
Speaker 2: while he was sitting in the waiting room, he changed
Speaker 2: his mind. He suddenly realized, what am I doing. I'm
Speaker 2: considering emasculating myself. I'm considering doing this how horrible this is,
Speaker 2: and he got very angry. He made up a quick
Speaker 2: story for the doctor and said he was afraid of
Speaker 2: the draft, and the doctor talked to him and appeased
Speaker 2: his worries and sent him on his way. But walking
Speaker 2: away from that doctor's office, Ted decided then and there
Speaker 2: that he could be angry at anybody wanted to, and
Speaker 2: he could kill anybody he wanted to. He wanted to
Speaker 2: have an enemy. At that point. He wanted to kill
Speaker 2: the doctor he had just talked to. He wanted to
Speaker 2: kill somebody somewhere. He became overwhelmed with rage. That is
Speaker 2: the genesis of his becoming a serial killer. This is
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six, and if the common assumption about the
Speaker 2: Unibarmer is true, he did absolutely nothing about that for
Speaker 2: twelve years and then became the unibomber. I think a
Speaker 2: more logical explanation of events is at nineteen sixty six,
Speaker 2: when Cherry Joe Bates was killed in Riverside. He was
Speaker 2: responsible for that spoke about having women's female parts cut
Speaker 2: off and deposited. He wrote that letter. He wrote debates
Speaker 2: letters which he includes the name Theodore, and then went
Speaker 2: on to become the Zodiac serial killer in northern Kelfornia
Speaker 2: when he began his work at at the Berkeley at
Speaker 2: UC Berkeley in the math department.
Speaker 8: You say that you have about two hundred if correct
Speaker 8: me if I'm wrong, two hundred incriminating commonalities, similarities, incriminating
Speaker 8: circumstantial evidence that confirms what you are stating, right right.
Speaker 2: I kind of summarized the book and an appendix in
Speaker 2: expose where I list some very specific commonalities between the
Speaker 2: unibomber and the Zodiac. You know, it's become very popular
Speaker 2: recently to publish a book on the Zodiac where you say,
Speaker 2: we'll see how the Zodiac wrote the letter E and
Speaker 2: the third page of the more material letter will my
Speaker 2: father in nineteen seventy two wrote an Eve the same
Speaker 2: way and build a case around that. What I try
Speaker 2: to offer is a very comprehensive comparison between the two
Speaker 2: of what we know of the unibomber, what we know
Speaker 2: of the Zodiac, and how incredibly similar the two are,
Speaker 2: despite the fact that they seem to be two completely
Speaker 2: different criminal campaigns.
Speaker 8: You don't stop there, because I guess you were on
Speaker 8: an incredible role with his investigation, and you include something
Speaker 8: very interesting the Talentol murders in Chicago. Why is that included?
Speaker 8: Tell us just briefly about that.
Speaker 2: Twenty eleven, twenty eleven, I'm not sure exactly the year
Speaker 2: the FBI noted that they were investigating the Tailanol murders
Speaker 2: and whether Ted Kaczynski is responsible for that. If he
Speaker 2: is responsible for the Zodiac murders and for the tail
Speaker 2: in all killings in Chicago nineteen eighty two, I believe
Speaker 2: it was. Ted Kaczynski is one of the worst serial
Speaker 2: killers in American history. He may be responsible for three
Speaker 2: campaigns as a serial killer, may be responsible for a
Speaker 2: lot more murders than we have any idea of. We
Speaker 2: may just be scratching the surface of the damage that
Speaker 2: he has done.
Speaker 8: What do you hope for this book in terms of
Speaker 8: the future and this and, for lack of a better word, investigation,
Speaker 8: what is your hope?
Speaker 2: I have no idea. I have no idea what I
Speaker 2: expect for the future. This is the results of my research.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to have played the part that I played
Speaker 2: in the Zodiac investigation. If it leads other people to
Speaker 2: make other discoveries, fantastic. I'm not the one who originated
Speaker 2: this theory. A lot of the items that I write
Speaker 2: about and exposed. I'm not the first one to bring
Speaker 2: these about. I collected this information and I'm making the
Speaker 2: chase that Ted Kaczynski is the Zodiac serial killer. I
Speaker 2: would love DNA, the Zodiac DNA to be found, and
Speaker 2: for people who insist on having DNA as a deciding factor,
Speaker 2: that would be very helpful. I believe I'm providing a
Speaker 2: literary DNA that right now, literary forensics or forensic linguistics
Speaker 2: is very early. It's in its infancy, so it has
Speaker 2: a lot of maturing to do as a science and
Speaker 2: as a respected science. I believe in time my work
Speaker 2: will be recognized for what it is and for providing
Speaker 2: forensic a forensic explanation for Tech Kazinski being the Zodiac.
Speaker 2: But I don't know if that will happen in ten
Speaker 2: years or fifty years or what. But I'm happy to
Speaker 2: share the results of my research and my part in
Speaker 2: this case.
Speaker 8: What do you hope, maybe even expect from the Zodiac
Speaker 8: community itself?
Speaker 2: And with this book, obviously I put a lot of
Speaker 2: thought into that. This is kind of a very this
Speaker 2: is a very big day for me coming out because
Speaker 2: for the last ten years or so, I've been at
Speaker 2: least the last couple of years, I've been saying I
Speaker 2: have never publicly accused anybody of being the Zodiac serial killer,
Speaker 2: and it's been very frustrating for people not to know
Speaker 2: the results of my research that I'm now presenting. I
Speaker 2: expect there will be a certain contingent of people who
Speaker 2: are so wedded to their own ideas that they won't
Speaker 2: take a serious look at at my work, which they're
Speaker 2: free to do that. Some people are very convinced that
Speaker 2: it's their father, their birth father, or stepfather. Other people
Speaker 2: are very convinced that it's this suspect or that other
Speaker 2: suspect that's being debated online. So you know, if you
Speaker 2: want to do research that contradicts my research, go for it.
Speaker 2: Show me your evidence, Explain to me how my arguments
Speaker 2: are wrong. I think I've been very reasoned and very
Speaker 2: careful in laying out facts and using reason to come
Speaker 2: to the conclusions that I do. If my reasoning is faulty,
Speaker 2: or if my conclusions are wrong by all means, point
Speaker 2: them out to me, I would I would love to
Speaker 2: learn more, even at the even at the y at
Speaker 2: the risk of being wrong or shown to be wrong
Speaker 2: and what I've produced there may be a contingent who say, wow, Mark,
Speaker 2: you've been very thorough in your research and you make
Speaker 2: a very compelling case. I really have no control over
Speaker 2: how other people respond to it, and that's not that's
Speaker 2: not really my concern. That's not something that I can
Speaker 2: do anything about. But I'm looking forward to discussing ideas
Speaker 2: in the coming months and years.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, I want to congratulate you on this very important
Speaker 8: work and very important book, and I want to thank
Speaker 8: you very much for coming on before anybody else got
Speaker 8: a chance to speak to you and talk about Expose
Speaker 8: the Zodiac revealed. It is an incredible body of work,
Speaker 8: incredible investigation, and thank you very much for coming on
Speaker 8: and naming the zodiac after all of this time. And
Speaker 8: I want to thank you very much Mark Hewitt for this.
Speaker 8: For those that might want to take a look at
Speaker 8: the other work, do you have a Facebook page, your website?
Speaker 8: How can they take a look?
Speaker 2: The easiest way to learn more about the book and
Speaker 2: have contact with me is through my author's page on
Speaker 2: Amazon dot com as a list of my different books
Speaker 2: that are available your local bookstore if they don't stock
Speaker 2: my books, can order them for you. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: exactly when Exposed will be available. I checked just before
Speaker 2: this we went on the air and it wasn't yet available.
Speaker 2: The Kindle version is available for pre sale. Tomorrow is
Speaker 2: the launch and I am am honored to be on
Speaker 2: your show. Dan. This is the fourth time we've been
Speaker 2: together to UH to UH to talk about different books
Speaker 2: that I've written. And when my publisher talked to me
Speaker 2: about you know, where do you want to actually launch this,
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I would like to be interviewed
Speaker 2: by Dan and do that the day before to give
Speaker 2: Dan an exclusive. I also want to thank the many
Speaker 2: people who have kept things quiet until today. There are
Speaker 2: probably two hundred people all together who wow, have heard
Speaker 2: my theory and have I've talked with about this case
Speaker 2: in the last few months. I was interviewed by the
Speaker 2: Travel Channel on October three. The Travel Channel will be
Speaker 2: showing a special of which I contributed to. I also
Speaker 2: talk with CNN back in June and they plan a
Speaker 2: special coming out, probably not until early next year. And
Speaker 2: all of these people signed non disclosure agreements, and I'm
Speaker 2: very pleased that nobody got on social media and started
Speaker 2: sharing what I'm sharing today, and I'm happy to be
Speaker 2: able to share that with you, Dan, because you've been
Speaker 2: very fair to me and you've asked excellent questions in
Speaker 2: the number of times that you've.
Speaker 8: Been Thank you very much. Been my absolute pleasure and
Speaker 8: it be a pleasure for our audience in listening to this,
Speaker 8: and I know that the remarks and reviews will be
Speaker 8: exemplary for sure. Thank you very much, Mark Hewitt, doctor
Speaker 8: Mark Hewitt, for coming on and talking about exposed the
Speaker 8: Zodiac revealed. Hope to talk to you again. You're welcome.
Speaker 8: Thank you, bye now, good night.