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Who is the Zodiac. 56 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.879 There have been many hypotheses about the killer's identity, some 57 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:01.680 sober and evidence based, some wildly speculation, all touching upon 58 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:04.639 any one or more of the twenty five hundred suspects 59 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.439 in the Zodiac serial killer case, but until now, the 60 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:12.680 truth has not been known. In Hunted, doctor Mark Hewitt 61 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:16.159 presented the facts of the case, the attacks, the letters, 62 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:20.240 the phone calls, and the police response. In profile, he 63 00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:24.000 demonstrated the psychology of serial killers and gave an evidence 64 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:28.560 based criminal profile of the Zodiac himself. Yet even these 65 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:33.439 present an incomplete picture of the case. Inexposed. Doctor Hewett 66 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:36.639 fills in the gaps in the timeline, explains how and 67 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:40.599 why the Zodiac originated and when where he disappeared to 68 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:43.960 and reveals the identity of one of the most enigmatic 69 00:03:44.039 --> 00:03:49.479 and feared serial killers in American history. On September twenty seventh, 70 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:54.960 twenty eighteen, Exposed the Zodiac Revealed, the final installment of 71 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:58.319 the Zodiac serial Killer series, brings to light the truth 72 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:02.400 about the Zodiac. In it, hewittt presents definitive evidence of 73 00:04:02.439 --> 00:04:07.439 the killer's identity and names him directly. This incontrovertible work 74 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:12.039 of investigation will confirm the suspicions of many Zodiac investigators 75 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.319 and change the public's understanding of the case forever. The 76 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.759 book they were featuring this evening is Exposed the Zodiac 77 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:24.040 Revealed The Zodiac serial Killer, Book three with my special guest, 78 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:28.199 journalist and author and historian, doctor Mark Hewitt. Welcome back 79 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.199 to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing 80 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:32.439 to this interview, Doctor Mark Hewitt. 81 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:34.079 Hi Dan, thank you for having me. 82 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:41.759 Thank you very much. Incredible third book in the trilogy, 83 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:51.079 The Zodiac Revealed Exposed. Let's jump right into this. Tell Us, Mark, 84 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:57.800 this is in reverse order, but you corresponded with Ted 85 00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:04.000 Kazinski in prison, and in two thousand and nine you 86 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.959 wrote your first letter tell Us about the reason why 87 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:11.199 you contacted Ted Kazinski. In two thousand and nine. 88 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:12.800 What was your goal? 89 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:14.920 What was your what? What did you want to achieve? 90 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:18.480 Tell us about that, boy, Dan, You really are getting 91 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:22.560 jumping right into it, aren't we. I contacted ted Kazinski 92 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:25.240 back in two thousand and nine and corresponded with him 93 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:28.680 for a couple of years past that, because he was 94 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:32.680 a known suspect. I had read online and read in 95 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:35.680 different articles that he was a suspect. He was spect 96 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.279 he was suspected by some people of being the Zodiac, 97 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:42.560 and if that was the case, I wanted to contact 98 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.720 him and see if I could figure anything out about that. 99 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:49.639 Now, what tell us the tack or the ruse as 100 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.079 you call it that you used do you employ to 101 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:55.800 be able to achieve the goal that you had in mind? 102 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:57.920 With the correspondence with him? 103 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:00.920 Well, I feel a little bit cheap about that, because 104 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:03.360 I was not honest with him when I wrote him 105 00:06:03.399 --> 00:06:08.240 the first time. One of my friends suggested to me, 106 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:10.720 I just contact him and say, are you the Zodiac 107 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.720 serial killer? Which I didn't think was a really good 108 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:18.040 tact a good idea. So I wrote him and said 109 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:24.040 that I was very interested in the industrial industrialization problem 110 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:28.160 that I was concerned about, the problems of industrialization in 111 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:30.920 today's society and where it was leading us, and how 112 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:35.959 we were dependent upon technology and whatnot, basically spewing back 113 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.240 to him a lot of his words of the Unibomber Manifesto, 114 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:42.959 and uickly he quickly wrote me back. 115 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:43.319 I was. 116 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.279 I was quite impressed how quickly I received a letter, 117 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.000 because I had heard that at that time he had 118 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:53.519 corresponded with about four hundred different people, so it seemed 119 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:57.040 that whoever wrote him in prison he was happy to 120 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:01.759 respond to. So I wrote that letter, and he responded 121 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.560 right away. 122 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.079 You say you were successful, and we'll get you to 123 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:11.480 talk about what you mean by that. But you said 124 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:14.279 soon he was applying you with questions and requesting you 125 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.560 do research for him. Tell us more about what kinds 126 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:19.240 of things he was asking you and what kind of 127 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:20.800 research he was requesting from you. 128 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:25.480 But part of the ruse was I wanted for him 129 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:27.720 to make sure that he knew that I was educated 130 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.879 and intelligent, so that he was talking to a peer. 131 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.040 I certainly don't have his intelligence or his IQ level, 132 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.879 but I wanted him to know of my education and 133 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:42.279 I was successful. And in the fact that he did 134 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.079 write me back, he wrote me back quickly, but pretty 135 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:48.839 soon after we exchanged letters, he began asking me for information. 136 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:51.879 At the time, I was working on my doctorate for 137 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:57.839 business administration, which I completed two years ago, and Ted 138 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:01.279 started asking me questions about businesses administration as far as 139 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:05.240 how to lead groups of people. He wanted to me 140 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:06.959 to direct him to a couple of books that he 141 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:10.959 could learn about how to manage people and manage an 142 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:15.639 organization and his As he explained it to me, it 143 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.800 became quite clear that he was interested in gathering together 144 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:22.279 a group of people who are concerned about the technology problem, 145 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.319 and he wanted to lead them, or at least give 146 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:31.720 good instructions to other people to be able to lead them. 147 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:37.320 I don't want to jump ahead too much to explore 148 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.720 everything that you do in this incredible book, but let's 149 00:08:42.279 --> 00:08:46.759 talk about some of the things that how many letters 150 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.159 and how long was this correspondence for first off? And 151 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:55.799 how many letters? And were there times when evidence revealed 152 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:57.759 to you in your mind or at least there was 153 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:02.360 hints at or indications of tell us a little bit 154 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:06.200 about some of those letters, and just in broad terms 155 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:08.919 that correspondence. 156 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.440 I corresponded with him over the course of a couple 157 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:17.399 of years. He eventually came to learn that I was 158 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.000 researching the Zodiac serial killer. I think he learned it 159 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:23.519 from our friend who went online and googled my name 160 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:27.159 and came upon different posts that I had posted on 161 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:35.840 internet message boards. The different letters that he sent me, 162 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:42.000 some of the wording reminded me vaguely of Zodiac type letters. 163 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:44.480 And it was the very last letter that I think 164 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.639 I got the strongest indication once you figured out that 165 00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:51.879 I was researching the Zodiac. He sent me a very short, terse, 166 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.879 angry letter, and I like to call it my exorcist letter, 167 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.240 because there's a lot of anger that came through in 168 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:03.960 his In the letter. I could see it even in 169 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.879 the pressure of his pen as he was pressing down 170 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:12.039 on the paper. That it was an awful lot heavier 171 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:16.679 and bolder than the previous letters I'd received. It was confrontational, 172 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:18.720 or at least the best that he could do as 173 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:24.960 far as confrontation, And between that attitude and the tone 174 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.320 of that letter and some of the phrases of all 175 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:29.440 the other letters, it gave me the sense that, you know, 176 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:34.480 this might be the person who's responsible for the Zodiac letters. 177 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:37.440 The final letter he sent to me. He actually did 178 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.159 write out the word zodiac. He put it in quotes, 179 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.759 and I compared that word that he wrote to me 180 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:48.960 he printed, because Ted Kazinski prints all of his letters. 181 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.200 He printed that letter and I printed that word, and 182 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.480 I compared it to the word zodiac and all of 183 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.600 the zodiac letters, and I showed these, I line these 184 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:02.320 all up in I think it's that the afterward of 185 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:06.840 exposed and show that there's a strong similarity between the 186 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:09.840 handwriting of Ted Kaczynski and the zodiac. 187 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.960 Now you are a zodiac expert, bile by the ten 188 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:21.840 years of research who dedicated to this case. That's at 189 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:25.639 the very least. But let's go back to Ted's upbringing. 190 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:30.320 As you write born May twenty second, nineteen forty two, 191 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:34.720 University of Chicago Hospital. There are some dramatic things that 192 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.159 I mean a lot of people try to reconstruct history 193 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:42.240 and then point to certain things that may have affected, 194 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:47.600 in this case, a serial killer's psychological development. But there 195 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:52.000 are some great things indicating some very very interesting things. 196 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:55.960 Tell us about what you found about Ted's upbringing, and 197 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.679 then especially some of the dramatic things like when he 198 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:05.000 was very very young and his hospitalization now okay. 199 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:06.240 Well, first of all, we should point out that Ted 200 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:10.000 Kazinski is a serial killer. He has been convicted and 201 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:15.080 pled guilty of being the unibomber. Over eighteen year span, 202 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:20.240 he sent or placed sixteen explosive devices and is responsible 203 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:22.759 for the death of three people and the injuring of 204 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:27.559 at least twenty four others. That said, a lot of 205 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:30.080 research has gone into him to figure out what made 206 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:34.879 him become the unibomber. Why is he angry, why does 207 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:39.080 he have trouble with relationships with other people, why does 208 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:43.480 he have this need to kill other people? And why 209 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:45.879 did he kill other people? Some of the research has 210 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:49.279 taken us back to Ted's childhood. When he was about 211 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:51.840 nine months of age, he was rushed to the hospital 212 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:56.600 because he had hives over much of his body, and 213 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.080 at that time he was taken away from his parents. 214 00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:02.679 Parents were only able to visit him for short visits 215 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:05.919 every other day, and his mother tells a very heart 216 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.399 wrenching story of him crying his eyes out when he's 217 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.519 being taken away from her and treated at the hospital. 218 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.440 Quite likely, at that time he was put in restraints 219 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:21.320 to his hands and legs were restrained to prevent him 220 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:24.240 from scratching these hives, and he was covered in antiseptic 221 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.399 and who knows what all else was done to him. 222 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:29.960 But a lot of people look at that experience in 223 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:36.919 his life and suggest that that early experience caused him 224 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:39.879 to have a lack of trust in other people. His 225 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:43.360 mother described his demeanor when he returned home as being listless, 226 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.639 and he wouldn't nuzzle with her and was very cold, 227 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.679 and it seemed like the bond was not there any longer. 228 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:54.960 But there's a lot of different interpretations of that experience, 229 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.120 because Ted himself said, well, look at my mom's journal. 230 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.120 A week later, he was back to normal. And I 231 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:03.960 think his mother even noted in her journal that a 232 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.399 week later he was back to his normal self and 233 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:12.559 was eagerly enthusiastic with other people. And that probably wasn't 234 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.200 as big as a deal as his mother was trying 235 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.519 to make out later on. And one of the suggestions 236 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:22.399 that Ted made is that the reason that she was 237 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.759 saying that at that time was to prevent him from 238 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.039 being put to death and getting the death penalty for 239 00:14:28.159 --> 00:14:29.159 being the unibomber. 240 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:35.360 Right now, you say that the last letter was the 241 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:41.679 most revealing in terms of information that would again establish 242 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.360 or confirm in your mind that Ted Kazinski and the 243 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.720 Zodiac were one and the same. Early on in the. 244 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:49.200 Book, you. 245 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:56.559 Talk about what your theory was in terms of how 246 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:00.440 could they be the same person. You do a thorough investment, mitigation, 247 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:05.039 and we will go through that. But what was the theory, 248 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:11.840 just the original one that you espouse about the Zodiac 249 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:17.559 and the unibomber and how they could be the same person. 250 00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:18.679 What was the theory? 251 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:22.799 Well, I remember being confronted with that idea and thinking 252 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:25.000 it was this most stupid idea in the whole world. 253 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.440 When I entered into my research back in two thousand 254 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.320 and seven, two thousand and eight, that's when I made 255 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:34.240 the decision to throw myself wholeheartedly behind my studying of 256 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:36.799 the case and getting to the bottom of it. I 257 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.759 expected one of two outcomes. I expected to, at least 258 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.360 in my own mind, convince myself that Arthur Lee Allen 259 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:47.159 was responsible, even if I couldn't prove it, even if 260 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:51.039 I didn't have fingerprints or DNA evidence, I would by 261 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:53.919 studying the letters, by studying the crime scenes, and studying 262 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:56.480 the life of Arthur Lee Allen, I would come to 263 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:01.360 know that, yes, Indeed, everything that's been said pre was correct, 264 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:04.480 and yes he is the Zodiac serial killer. The police 265 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.559 just never had enough evidence to convict him. The other 266 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.080 possibility that I thought was that it would be somebody 267 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:14.759 that nobody's ever heard of, and that by studying the letters, 268 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:19.000 I'd get an idea of this person's personality and their 269 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:21.840 state of mind, their purposes behind what they were doing, 270 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.440 and kind of who this person was. You know, you 271 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:27.840 don't write twenty letters without saying an awful lot about yourself. 272 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:30.720 So I assumed that I could dig down to the 273 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.600 bottom of it and figure out what this person was 274 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.919 about what who this person was on an emotional level, 275 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:42.039 on a personal level, even if I didn't know exactly 276 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:45.519 who it was. Well, surprisingly, as I went through my research, 277 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.240 both of these were incorrect. It wasn't Arthur Lee Allen, 278 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:53.879 and it was quite quickly apparent to me that Arthur 279 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.240 Lee Allen wasn't responsible for the crimes, and it wasn't 280 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:01.360 somebody that we'd never heard of before. Arthur Lee Allen, 281 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:05.119 I think, was a good suspect back in the sixties 282 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:09.039 and seventies, because the police had no other better suspect. 283 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:13.640 He was it. They couldn't eliminate him as easily as 284 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:17.920 they were able to eliminate other people, and Alan seemed 285 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.920 to throw the police all kinds of tidbits that implicated 286 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.920 him as being the Zodiac. He told other people, Hey, 287 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:29.000 I'm being investigated for being the Zodiac, or I mean 288 00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.599 investigated because I am the Zodiac. When he ended up 289 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.240 going to prison for child molestation, he told people he 290 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.240 was going to prison because he was the Zodiac. Well, 291 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.119 that kind of attitude. The one thing he did have 292 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:45.480 in common with the Zodiac was that he liked needling 293 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:47.880 the police. I think that was pretty common back in 294 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:52.160 the sixties and seventies that people like to people like 295 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.119 to denigrate police officers and get on their bad side 296 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.519 and give them hard time, and look at the police 297 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.079 forces being the enemies of society, the enemies of freedom. 298 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:06.720 So in a lot of ways, the personality of Arsleuthiland 299 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:11.240 was similar to that of the Zodiac. But the thing 300 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.359 that clinched it for me, apart from DNA and fingerprints 301 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.759 and handwriting, all the things that the police tried to 302 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:22.440 implicate him, his personality is all wrong. As I got 303 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:25.079 to know the Zodiac through the Zodiac letters, I came 304 00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:31.559 to see him as cautious and quiet and cerebrals, whereas 305 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:36.160 Arthur Lee Allen was brash and loud and boisterous. The 306 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:40.839 Zodiac worked very hard to get attention and came up 307 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:44.039 with various schemes to get attention from society, from police, 308 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:50.839 from newspapers, to get his letters printed. And the sense 309 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.400 that I got from the Zodiac letters is that this 310 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.240 is a man who didn't get a lot of attention 311 00:18:55.400 --> 00:19:01.000 and was quite comfortable fitting into this. That the background 312 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:02.799 of any scene, he would be in a room and 313 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.480 nobody would notice him. He would be quiet, he would 314 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:11.200 be very unremarkable. Well, Arthur Lee Allen was just the opposite. 315 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:13.400 He'd walk into a room and he'd be loud, and 316 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:19.279 he'd be dramatic, and he'd draw attention to himself one 317 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:21.920 way or the other. But he carried around knives and 318 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:26.240 displayed knives to other people. He was threatening, he was 319 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:29.400 He was quite a large man from what I understand, 320 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.160 and very intimidating, so everybody noticed him when he was 321 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:35.960 in a room. People knew he was there. Well, that's 322 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:40.319 completely unlike the personality that I got to know of 323 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.559 being the Zodiac, who was who worked very hard to 324 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:48.839 get attention and was very creative in ways he got attention, 325 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.839 because obviously in his own life he probably did not 326 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:52.960 get a whole lot of attention. 327 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:59.039 Now we talked about in Hunted, you presented the facts 328 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:02.680 of the case, attacks, the letters, the phone calls, police response. 329 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:07.200 In Profile, you demonstrated the psychology of serial killers and 330 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:11.720 gave it an evidence based criminal profile of the Zodiac himself. Now, 331 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:16.759 that have to be incredibly useful when you were trying 332 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:24.680 to either corroborate or eliminate the idea the commonalities, the similarities. 333 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:32.160 How did you first undertake this comparative methodology that you 334 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.599 were going to try to see in what way there 335 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:41.000 was commonalities and similarities to establish that they were one 336 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:41.839 and the same person. 337 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:45.519 Well, the way I've come to look at it now 338 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:52.079 is in the book Hunted, a very reasoned story of 339 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:54.440 the Zodiac serial killer. All of the details that I 340 00:20:54.480 --> 00:21:00.839 could find from primary sources without bias, without trying to 341 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.920 incriminate one particular person or slant the evidence a certain way, 342 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:11.279 And numerous occasions I didn't know the difference between several 343 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:13.759 competing stories, and so I included them all as there 344 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:16.640 was different evidence that pointed different directions. I just included 345 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.759 it all and let the readers make their own mind up. 346 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:23.440 The way I've come to understand Hunted was that was 347 00:21:23.480 --> 00:21:27.119 my effort to break the case down into little pieces. 348 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.400 Profile my second book of the trilogy, which came out 349 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:34.960 about a year ago, was my attempt to analyze those pieces. 350 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:38.240 Once I've broken the case down, I put together a 351 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:42.480 profile of who I thought the Zodiac should be based 352 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:46.119 on FBI principles and FBI research into the whole area 353 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:51.400 of serial killers in exposed my third book, which comes 354 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:55.000 out tomorrow. It may be available by the end of 355 00:21:55.039 --> 00:22:00.200 this broadcast on Amazon. That was my attempt to put 356 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:03.720 the case back together again, put all the pieces back 357 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:07.200 together in a cohesive hole that made sense. And for me, 358 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.400 there was only one way to do that, and that 359 00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:13.440 is to understand as Ted Kazinsky is being responsible for 360 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:18.559 the attacks of the Zodiac serial killer. I tell a 361 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:23.599 story in such a way that inexposed you can't really 362 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:29.119 understand the Zodiac without equating it with Ted Kazinski. There's 363 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.519 so many pieces of evidence within the case that don't 364 00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:34.759 make a lot of sense or leave a lot of 365 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:39.440 questions unanswered. When you identified Ted Kazinsky as being the Zodiac. 366 00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:42.880 Suddenly it all makes sense. I was asked a couple 367 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:46.079 of weeks ago, what was my first indication or when 368 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.200 did I have that Eureka moment that I knew it 369 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.319 was Ted Kazinsky. Well, there was never any big moment. 370 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:55.759 It was the process of eleven years of research. Little 371 00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.279 by little, it kind of came out in retrosp I 372 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:02.160 can look back and say that I realized that there 373 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.920 are a lot of minor questions of the case that 374 00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.759 had to be answered. Everybody wants to know who is 375 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:10.279 the Zodiac, but there are a lot of smaller questions 376 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:12.799 I was not able to answer and hunted or profiled 377 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.799 questions such as where did the Zodiac get his name from? 378 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.960 Why do we call him the Zodiac? Every other serial 379 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:23.200 killer when they have a moniker given to them by 380 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:27.160 the press or by themselves, we know what it means. 381 00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:30.279 We know Jack the Ripper, or the East Side Rapist, 382 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.599 or the Son of Sam. We know where these names 383 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.400 came from and what it meant. The Zodiac is alone 384 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.400 in having a name as a serial killer, and nobody 385 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:43.799 knows precisely where it came from. Some questions like that 386 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:47.759 little by little began to be answered in Ted Kazinski. 387 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:53.319 Another example is the phrase collecting slaves for the afterlife. 388 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:56.480 People have looked at that for fifty years now and said, 389 00:23:56.720 --> 00:23:59.480 what does that mean? Where does it come from? It's 390 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:04.799 obviously a euphemism for killing people, but why use those words? Well, 391 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:09.000 that phrase takes on meeting when we understand that Ted 392 00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.880 Kozinski wrote it. Each of those words and phrases is 393 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.519 very significant for Ted's philosophy of life and his wording 394 00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:19.920 of his Unibomber manifesto. 395 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.160 You talked about collecting slaves for the afterlife and the 396 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:30.279 origins of the Zodiac name. So tell us why, unlike 397 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.440 other people that were given the name, what is the 398 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:34.759 origin of the Zodiac name? 399 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:38.599 The name first appeared in the more Material Letter in 400 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.480 August nineteen sixty nine. The Zodiac started his letter off 401 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:46.279