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<v Speaker 1>It's Maria's MUDs and Stuff. What a great idea on iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to Maria's MutS and Stuff with me today is Well,

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<v Speaker 2>he's a scientist, he's an explorer, he's an author. It

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<v Speaker 2>is Neil Shubin. So Neil, thank you for taking some

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<v Speaker 2>time to talk about Ends of the Earth, your most

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<v Speaker 2>recent book, and all of your travels and everything else.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for having me on.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So okay, So you've been going up to the polls

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<v Speaker 2>thirty years, right, A.

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<v Speaker 1>Very very about three decades to both polar regions. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the late eighties. Actually, wow?

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<v Speaker 3>And how did that all begin?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it all began when I was a student. I

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<v Speaker 1>was training to become a fossil hunter, a paleontologist and

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<v Speaker 1>graduate school and one of the professors, one of the profts,

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<v Speaker 1>was leading an expedition to Greenland, the east coast of Greenland,

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<v Speaker 1>and he invited me, you know, a small four person

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<v Speaker 1>team who I be a part of, to a search

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<v Speaker 1>for early dinosaurs and mammals and things like that. The

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<v Speaker 1>problem was this, I grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia.

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<v Speaker 1>I never really camped as a kid, so I had

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<v Speaker 1>an all those you know, because basically, you know, this

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<v Speaker 1>exhibition is going to be removed from about one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>coup few hundred miles from the nearest settlement, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>sub zero temperatures, small camp, living in nylon tents, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole thing. Anyway, So that was my first one,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, I was terrified. Yeah, I was hooked

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<v Speaker 1>as soon as I got to these landscapes where you

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<v Speaker 1>see the glaciers and you see the you know, you

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<v Speaker 1>see the tundra, you see the coast. It just changes you.

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<v Speaker 1>Working in the polar regions, which I've done, you both

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<v Speaker 1>in the Arctic and Antarctica for the last few decades,

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<v Speaker 1>it really changes the way you see the world, honestly,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's what motivated the book, that's motivated my research

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<v Speaker 1>as a scientist too.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that's fascinating to me, especially the fact it's

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<v Speaker 2>you know, growing up in Philly, you had cold temperatures,

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<v Speaker 2>but not the same as what you experienced there.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Plus I was in a house with a fireplace

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<v Speaker 1>or a heater. Here I'm you know, in Niel tent delivery.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Like, how do you how do you?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I guess I know from your book you

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<v Speaker 2>eventually get used to the cold. But I mean the

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<v Speaker 2>first time that you were there, that had to be like,

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<v Speaker 2>how did you prepare for that?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, the first time I was there, I brought all

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<v Speaker 1>the wrong gear, right, I just didn't know what I

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<v Speaker 1>was doing, and so you know I had leather boots

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<v Speaker 1>and all. Yeah, right, well, no it is. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we got it down to a little more of a science.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, you bring the right clothes, the right layers.

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<v Speaker 1>You learn how the layer you're closed have, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>wicking layers close to the body, insulating layers further out.

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<v Speaker 1>So forth you learn how to behave So for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>an Antarctica where the temperatures well you know, can get

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<v Speaker 1>down to minus twenty, you learn to change in your

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<v Speaker 1>sleeping bag. You know, you learn these little tricks, and

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<v Speaker 1>it's the little tricks that keep you going, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's fueling the fires of your body, like learning

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<v Speaker 1>you know, which high calorie foods to eat and things

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<v Speaker 1>like that, not to overheat, not to underheat, all that

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<v Speaker 1>good stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. Yeah, like I saw in your book, you have

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<v Speaker 2>all the rules and that's like your first two rules, right,

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<v Speaker 2>don't get cold, don't get hot.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't get cold, don't get hot. Don't get cold, right

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<v Speaker 1>because it's hard to heat up. And don't get hot

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<v Speaker 1>because you'll sweat, and once you sweat, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>in those cold temperatures, it's not a good thing, not

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<v Speaker 1>a good thing.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, it was fascinating.

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<v Speaker 2>Your book is fascinating, by the way, and especially for

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I told you earlier. I really I don't

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<v Speaker 2>tolerate cold, and the older I get, the worse it is.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's fascinating to me just that you've done so

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<v Speaker 2>much there and did it all in the cold, which

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<v Speaker 2>is kind of like an insignificant fact to it all,

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<v Speaker 2>if that makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, you know, what's the amazing thing about

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<v Speaker 1>these places is for several hundred years people have made

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<v Speaker 1>profound discoveries, scientific discoveries, which is a big theme of

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<v Speaker 1>the book. Sure in these places, you know, so there's

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<v Speaker 1>so you learn about yourself by being there, right, But

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<v Speaker 1>you also learn about other animals, the other living beings,

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<v Speaker 1>and how they adapt to these incredible landscapes and what

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<v Speaker 1>their marvelous adaptations are. You learn about the cosmo because

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<v Speaker 1>you know the meteorites that hit there. We can work

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<v Speaker 1>on you learn about climate change, you learn about our future,

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<v Speaker 1>our past. There's just so many lessons, you know. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's a really incredible place, such a privileged to work there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and speaking of those discoveries and the animals, ancient

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<v Speaker 2>fish that were walking on land, that's like my fun,

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<v Speaker 2>my fun part.

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<v Speaker 3>Tell us about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So my team and I I was part of

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<v Speaker 1>a team that did this, is we designed a series

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<v Speaker 1>of expeditions beginning in the mid nineteen nineties to try

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<v Speaker 1>to discover fossil evidence for the first fish to walk

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<v Speaker 1>on land. You know, all life was in the water

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<v Speaker 1>for a long period of time. Then at about three

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and eighty three hundred and seventy five million years ago,

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<v Speaker 1>that's a long time, long time ago, aged dinosaurs just

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<v Speaker 1>took their first steps on land, you know. So we

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<v Speaker 1>designed an expedition up to the Canadian Arctic, largely because

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<v Speaker 1>the they had that area in rocks that were not

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<v Speaker 1>covered by ice. So if you had rocks of the

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<v Speaker 1>surface that weren't covered by ice, they were kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the perfect rocks to hold fossils like this. The problem was,

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<v Speaker 1>it took us about four working seasons over six years,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it took a long time to be successful,

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<v Speaker 1>but eventually we found a fish about four feet long

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<v Speaker 1>that has scales in its back and fins with fin

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<v Speaker 1>webbings webbing, but it had both lungs and gills. It

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<v Speaker 1>had inside its fins bones bones that correspond to our

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<v Speaker 1>upper arm, forearm, even parts of our wrist, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean inside of in in a fish. So it

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<v Speaker 1>just goes the power of working in these regions, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>So we weren't just camping there randomly, and we were

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<v Speaker 1>there with it.

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<v Speaker 3>We were we were there with yeah mission, Yeah, you

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<v Speaker 3>had a mission. Yeah, I mean it's fascinating to me.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, then your Arctic wooly bear caterpillar, no,

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<v Speaker 2>talk about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there's just you know, when you encounter these special

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<v Speaker 1>creatures that live there, it just again changes the way

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<v Speaker 1>you see life. Okay, so here's a caterpillar, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>just a regular counterpiar, but it's a hairy caterpillar. So

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<v Speaker 1>can we stand the cold? It comes out for like

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<v Speaker 1>two or three weeks in the just feeds voraciously. Then

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it gets cold, and this is the Arctic summer.

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<v Speaker 1>And then as it gets cold in the Arctic, it

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<v Speaker 1>freezes over and the thing has anti freeze inside its

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<v Speaker 1>body that keeps it from you know, the ice from

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<v Speaker 1>destroying its tissues. And then it freezes over, only to

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<v Speaker 1>thaw again in June and feed for another few weeks

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<v Speaker 1>in July, only to freeze again. So it does this freeze, thaw, freeze,

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<v Speaker 1>the aw for seven years, then to hatches a moth,

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<v Speaker 1>reproduce for two weeks, and then die. So think about

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<v Speaker 1>that life cycle. It's incredible, and it's incredible these special

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<v Speaker 1>adaptations you see, these animals like this one has anta

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<v Speaker 1>freeze inside its body, a chemical antifreeze. You know, there

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<v Speaker 1>are all kinds of other creatures that have anti freeze

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<v Speaker 1>in their and their blood and their bodies that keep

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<v Speaker 1>them from freezing up in these regions. And some of

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<v Speaker 1>them they replace the water in their body with a

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<v Speaker 1>sugar that turns their body when it drives out and

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<v Speaker 1>gets cold, that turns their body entirely into glass, glass

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<v Speaker 1>likes substance. And they exist as this glass like substance

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<v Speaker 1>for I don't know for as long as it takes,

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<v Speaker 1>could be decades. So when you had water, they come

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<v Speaker 1>back to life. It's incredible, it is incredible.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like a sci fi movie.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, only for real, only for real, right.

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<v Speaker 3>It's true.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean you would think, like the way you're describing it,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's like, wait, I think I saw that in

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<v Speaker 2>a movie, you know, like an old Twilight Zone.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, speaking of a movie, I mean it

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<v Speaker 1>gets crazier. So, like, the ice of Antarctica is miles thick, right,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, And so the Russians and others have drilled

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<v Speaker 1>into the ice about two two and a half miles

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<v Speaker 1>into it, and there are underneath the ice of Antarctica

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<v Speaker 1>miles over two and a half miles of ice are lakes,

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<v Speaker 1>freshwater lakes that lie underneath the ice. And these lakes

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<v Speaker 1>are are filled with living things, you know, microbes that

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<v Speaker 1>have been removed from the rest of the planet for

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<v Speaker 1>millions of years.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean just incredible, incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>And those organisms that live in those lakes, they don't

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<v Speaker 2>live anywhere else on the earth.

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<v Speaker 1>Is Zachary, Well, there are relatives that there no not

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<v Speaker 1>those species, but not those.

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<v Speaker 2>Species, which is again another amazing fact.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then you know you think about it, these

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<v Speaker 1>things under the ice, there's no sunlight, right, there's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>they have to have a whole different ecosystem. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the energy that comes into these systems is not based

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<v Speaker 1>on the sunlight. Well, it's pretty incredible when you start

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<v Speaker 1>to realize that. You know, there are about six hundred

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<v Speaker 1>of these lakes under the ice in Antarctica, right and

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<v Speaker 1>their whole world's yet to discover, that doesn't even know about. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And even the plants, like, how there are plants there?

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<v Speaker 2>How do they survive?

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<v Speaker 1>They're not going to Yeah, there are so like you

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<v Speaker 1>know where we work up in Greenland and Nilsmere Island

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<v Speaker 1>near the North Pole, there are no trees. So you know,

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<v Speaker 1>when you're on this landscape, you don't see standing trees,

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<v Speaker 1>so you lose kind of perspective that way. But there

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<v Speaker 1>is a tree that lives in the tundrup there. It

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<v Speaker 1>just doesn't grow up. It grows sideways. It's called the

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<v Speaker 1>Arctic willow, and it hugs the ground as it grows.

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<v Speaker 1>It never rises more in a couple inches off the ground,

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<v Speaker 1>and you see branches of it, but they extend, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>along the ground, never rising high. So it's a it's

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<v Speaker 1>a tree. It's a real tree with leaves and everything,

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<v Speaker 1>roots and all that good stuff. In fact, the wooly

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<v Speaker 1>bear caterpillar feeds on it, as do spiders and things

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<v Speaker 1>like that. But yeah, it's it has all these adaptations

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<v Speaker 1>not to grow up, but to go sideways, go sideways.

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<v Speaker 2>And this willow probably isn't anywhere else in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Correct, No, it's a willow, so it's of the willow. Yeah, articulous.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't like that, no way. Yeah, it's some pretty

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<v Speaker 1>remarkable and remarkable organisms.

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<v Speaker 3>It is.

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<v Speaker 2>It sounds like everything up there is remarkable.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. It's been a great privilege for me to

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<v Speaker 1>work in these places. And then, you know, I kept

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<v Speaker 1>on coming back to that as as the writing ends

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<v Speaker 1>of the Earth. I mean, you know, I was trying

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<v Speaker 1>to tell the stories of the other scientists and explorers

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<v Speaker 1>and the indigenous communities that have lived up there and

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<v Speaker 1>worked there, and just their sheer breadth and importance of

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<v Speaker 1>the things they've discovered has been remarkable. You know. It's

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<v Speaker 1>been a real, real treat.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And honestly, I mean the tone of your book

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<v Speaker 2>is also a love affair from your perspective. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what I got out of it, that you just

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<v Speaker 2>you just love it there and loved working about it.

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<v Speaker 1>I love I'm in love with the landscape. I'm in

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<v Speaker 1>love with these animals, you know, And I was writing,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a three hundred pays love letter.

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<v Speaker 3>No, but real, No, but for real.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like you were just writing facts.

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<v Speaker 3>You know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I mean it's just you know, I mean, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I was sad when you know, sometimes when you're writing,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's a real slock. This one. I just

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<v Speaker 1>I just grew so much in these landscapes. It's been

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<v Speaker 1>just such a part of me, you know, just standing

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<v Speaker 1>there after the you know, helicopter drops us off for

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<v Speaker 1>a camp and you know, we have all our food,

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<v Speaker 1>and then they leave and there's the last other people

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<v Speaker 1>that we see for you know, four to six weeks.

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<v Speaker 1>I usually just take a deep breath and look around me,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm a little bit nervous and scared, but I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just excited to you know.

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<v Speaker 3>You're probably still in the law to a.

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<v Speaker 1>Lot to discover. Yeah, you're in awe and discovery. And

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<v Speaker 1>part of it is, you know, there is a wonder

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<v Speaker 1>almost like a childlike kind of wonder and awe that

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<v Speaker 1>comes from being in places that are as dramatic as these.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we all experience that, right you go to

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<v Speaker 1>the Grand Canyon or something like that. Sure, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you feel that wonder in awe of nature, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, the article, you just feel it every day

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<v Speaker 1>when you step outside the tent.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I was going to say, the fact that you've been

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<v Speaker 2>there so often and you still feel that way definitely

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<v Speaker 2>says something about it there.

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<v Speaker 1>It really does. It really does. And you know, these

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<v Speaker 1>the more I you know, we study these places, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we the more we realize how fragile they are. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>they change on the you know, just on a dime, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're very, very delicate, fragile landscapes that can be

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<v Speaker 1>perturbed very easily and disappear very quickly. Of course, in

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<v Speaker 1>the history of the planet, they've come and gone. Ice

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<v Speaker 1>has come and gone at the poles many times. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, and that's effected the entire planet.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I'm I mean, we have to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>it because there are so many deniers, which is very frustrating.

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<v Speaker 2>But climate change, I'm sure you've seen an in three

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<v Speaker 2>decades a change.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, it's hard to deny just the fact

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground. I mean, so if you look at

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<v Speaker 1>a satellite and aerial photos taken of this region, say

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<v Speaker 1>forty to fifty years ago, and then you compare them

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<v Speaker 1>to satellite photos today, you could see that the ice

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<v Speaker 1>is retreated. You know. Even more, you can use satellites

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<v Speaker 1>or ground stations to measure the temperature of the Arctic

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<v Speaker 1>and it's very clear. You know, it depends on where

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<v Speaker 1>you measure it, but you can average it out that

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<v Speaker 1>the Arctic is heating about four to five times faster

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<v Speaker 1>than anywhere else on the planet, you know, and that

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<v Speaker 1>heating is only accelerating. And so what that means is

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<v Speaker 1>obviously ice melts. As ice melts, the place gets warmer

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<v Speaker 1>because ice reflects the sun where the ground does not,

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<v Speaker 1>and so it just gets warmer and warmer and warmer.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, those are a effects we we as

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<v Speaker 1>a species and other species feel regularly. In fact, it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to be an increasing part of our future as

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<v Speaker 1>these areas melt.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, sure, and I'm sure that there are you know,

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<v Speaker 2>animals and plants species there that are probably dying out

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<v Speaker 2>because of.

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<v Speaker 3>The warming up.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what you're seeing is southern species that are warm

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<v Speaker 1>adapt are moving north, and then the cold adapt species

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<v Speaker 1>are retreating to places that are remaining cold, and those

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<v Speaker 1>are those refuges are getting.

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<v Speaker 3>Fewer in numbers, getting smaller.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'll tell you. One of the things that's happening

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<v Speaker 1>is so, for instance, killer whales, killer welles are now

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<v Speaker 1>extending their ranges further north with you know, with each

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<v Speaker 1>passing decade, to the point where they are now the

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<v Speaker 1>leading predator in the Arctic region, you know, threatening the

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<v Speaker 1>narwhals that are you know, the resident habit near the

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<v Speaker 1>normal residents of that area, right, So they've displaced a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of other predators, you know. So if southern species

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<v Speaker 1>moving north and northern species trying to find you know,

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<v Speaker 1>over time refuges. Yeah, so it's definitely you know, dynamic,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's changing very rapidly up.

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<v Speaker 3>There, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was I was going to ask you what

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<v Speaker 2>was probably what you feel is the most dangerous part

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<v Speaker 2>of being up there, But I have a feeling you

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<v Speaker 2>just answered it by saying it's climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think for all of us, you know, I think,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, for the for the average listener, for somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who's in Chicago or New York or LA. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really the effects we're going to feel in our

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<v Speaker 1>feeling now, and that is changes to the ocean the

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<v Speaker 1>sea level, changes to global weather patterns, you know, changes

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<v Speaker 1>to the salinity of the ocean. These are all things

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<v Speaker 1>that you know. The thing about it is, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you walk around during the day and you don't think

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<v Speaker 1>about polar regions, right, but the ice at the poles

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<v Speaker 1>is really a big part of our lives today because

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<v Speaker 1>they only are eight percent of the surface area of

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<v Speaker 1>the Earth, but about eighty percent of the fresh water.

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<v Speaker 1>So so much of the water of the Earth is

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<v Speaker 1>locked in the polar regions. And that's dynamic, that melt,

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<v Speaker 1>that co in trees, and so that is really sort

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<v Speaker 1>of an invisible part of our lives because it shapes

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<v Speaker 1>the coastal regions. It affects weather patterns, it affects with

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<v Speaker 1>the currents and the seas, and all these things affect economies,

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<v Speaker 1>political boundaries, you name it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, And.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like it's I don't know, is there one solution.

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<v Speaker 2>There are numerous solutions.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean it's we as a species are going

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<v Speaker 1>to have to figure that out now because these areas

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<v Speaker 1>are heating fast. But they're heating fast also politically, just

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<v Speaker 1>witness the news. They're heating fast, you know, in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of the economic potential that people are seeing up there, military, geopolitical,

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<v Speaker 1>all that stuff. So you know, these areas are going

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<v Speaker 1>to be increasingly part of the news, as you've witnessed

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<v Speaker 1>in the last month, you know, obviously with the President

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<v Speaker 1>Trump talking about Greenland. Yeah, you know, it's but it's

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<v Speaker 1>that's just the first of many salvos you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>see from many different countries.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, Well, people just need to wake up, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>wake up. So what's next for you?

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<v Speaker 1>What's next for me? Is I am planning other expeditions.

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<v Speaker 1>We're always planning new expeditions. We just finished an expedition

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<v Speaker 1>in July to the to the Arctic, to her Island,

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<v Speaker 1>probably looking at another one if we can get our

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<v Speaker 1>act together. It takes about a year to plan for

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<v Speaker 1>an expedition, so they just don't it's not like you

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<v Speaker 1>just get on the plane and go.

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<v Speaker 3>You got it, right, Wow, it takes a year. I

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<v Speaker 3>didn't take them.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And now what we're doing is we're doing the

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<v Speaker 1>research on things that we found over the summer. So

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<v Speaker 1>we found new fossils uh huh up in Ellesmere Island

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<v Speaker 1>in July and we're doing the research on them. Right

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<v Speaker 1>now it's really fun.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh that's great.

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<v Speaker 2>And then so from that research that you did in July,

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<v Speaker 2>the trip in July and the research that you're doing,

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<v Speaker 2>will that be another book or another book will be

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<v Speaker 2>from another expedition.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, those will be probably scientific papers, so we know

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to be publishing the scientific results. So those

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<v Speaker 1>talking to the scientific community. You'll probably read about a

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<v Speaker 1>few of them in the news. And yeah, and so

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to do that and there'll be another book

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<v Speaker 1>somewhere in my future. I don't know, I can't. I

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<v Speaker 1>just love this stuff so much. Yeah, it's really part

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<v Speaker 1>of me.

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<v Speaker 3>And you just did this one.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think your stuff is just so fascinating and

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<v Speaker 2>it's not like you know, it's people traveling to Italy.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you're going to a part of the world

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<v Speaker 2>that not many people go. So we do need you,

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<v Speaker 2>Neil Shubin, and we need your research and your books.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, keep doing what you do. So tell me

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<v Speaker 2>where can my listeners get ends of the.

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<v Speaker 1>Earth, well and see the earth? Think about it? To

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00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:43.559
<v Speaker 1>find booksellers everywhere, hopefully not the fine ones too, So yeah, Amazon, Online,

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<v Speaker 1>Barnes and Noble, you know, your local independent bookstore. All

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<v Speaker 1>the above, you know, so it's out there. It's on

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<v Speaker 1>sale on Tuesday, February fourth.

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<v Speaker 3>Perfect well.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, Neil, Thanks for your time, Thanks

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<v Speaker 2>for all that you do and keep doing it for us.

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<v Speaker 1>Please appreciate it. Thank you so much. Take care.

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<v Speaker 3>Shar has never been a radar operator in the Spot

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<v Speaker 3>Seal Lader Bargator