Speaker 1: What's up? He then's how y'all do it? I'm the
Speaker 1: godless engineer, and I just want to tell you that
Speaker 1: the Christian God cannot exist. He's described as an omniscient,
Speaker 1: omni benevolent, and omnipotent, the divine creator of everything. Yet
Speaker 1: millions of his most devout followers beg him daily to
Speaker 1: cure their diseases, stop their assaults, and protect their loved ones,
Speaker 1: and he answers with deafening silence. Children cry out for
Speaker 1: him to stop their abusers, and he either watches and
Speaker 1: does nothing, or turns away entirely. If God is omnipotent,
Speaker 1: then he has the power to answer every one of
Speaker 1: these prayers. He even said, ask and you shall receive,
Speaker 1: receive what exactly a silent rejection, a resounding no. If
Speaker 1: this God is good all the time, and all the time,
Speaker 1: this God is good, then this God simply cannot exist,
Speaker 1: because a good God wouldn't watch needless suffering. He has
Speaker 1: the power to stop. There is no argument to save
Speaker 1: God from this contradiction and character. If you disagree with
Speaker 1: the sentiment, then call in, because the show starts now.
Speaker 1: All right, Welcome everybody. Today is April nineteenth, twenty twenty six,
Speaker 1: and I'm your host, Scott. This engineer John and joining
Speaker 1: me right now is Scott Dicky. Hey, there's Scott.
Speaker 2: How you doing doing great? Doing great? How are you
Speaker 2: doing today?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing all right. You know, it's a pretty
Speaker 1: pleasant Sunday. You know, woke up late and just sort
Speaker 1: of chilled out until right now.
Speaker 2: Oh, I got a many way to do Sunday, by
Speaker 2: the way, that's the way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that it is the way. I did
Speaker 1: get a manny petty. I didn't get my nails painted
Speaker 1: this time, but you know, Sunday, Yeah, every other Sunday
Speaker 1: I go and I get a manny petty because that's
Speaker 1: just you know, healing for me.
Speaker 2: But man do what you gotta do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But I do want to remind everybody that the
Speaker 1: Atheist Experiences a product of the Atheist Community of Austin,
Speaker 1: a five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to
Speaker 1: the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the
Speaker 1: separation of religion and government. We are try streaming today,
Speaker 1: so a big shout out to our viewers over on
Speaker 1: TikTok and YouTube mobile. If you are watching us on
Speaker 1: TikTok right now, and you'd like to talk to us,
Speaker 1: then request to join and we'll bring you up on
Speaker 1: the stage. Please make sure that you are over eighteen
Speaker 1: years of age before doing so, or we will have
Speaker 1: to drop you like a bad habit. All right, Uh
Speaker 1: so let's see. I do believe that we actually have
Speaker 1: a call already screened in. You want you good to
Speaker 1: take a call already?
Speaker 2: Let's dive right in. Let's just go in feet first.
Speaker 1: Here, all right. So, just to remind everybody over there,
Speaker 1: on all the platforms, you can call in to challenge
Speaker 1: us today by calling five one two nine nine one
Speaker 1: nine two four to two or hitting up that link
Speaker 1: tiny dot c c Ford slash call axph if you
Speaker 1: would like to challenge us on how how God cannot exist.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk to Steph all right from Canada.
Speaker 1: What's up that, Steph? How you doing?
Speaker 3: A Fella's nice to see you. I could be better
Speaker 3: as a little too much more for my liking, but
Speaker 3: you know, it's a good Sunday afternoon for some dialogue.
Speaker 1: I suppose, yep, I totally agree. So what would I
Speaker 1: talk about today?
Speaker 3: I think maybe I think maybe just the definition of
Speaker 3: God might be a good place to start.
Speaker 1: Okay, what's your definition of God?
Speaker 3: That's kind of where I wanted to start with. Actually,
Speaker 3: what it is that the atheist position says does not exist?
Speaker 3: I mean, if I'm to say, you know, there's no table,
Speaker 3: then I would define a table as such, and then
Speaker 3: I'd say I've done such and such processes to find
Speaker 3: this table. We can see there's no table. And so
Speaker 3: that's where I'm kind of curious about the atheist position.
Speaker 1: What So, the atheist position is just that we are
Speaker 1: not convinced that a God does exist, and that it's
Speaker 1: for every definition of what God could be. If you're
Speaker 1: gonna do the Jordan Peterson thing where you distill it
Speaker 1: down to just literally anything can be labeled a God,
Speaker 1: then there's really no conversation to be had, right because
Speaker 1: you're just defining God in and out of existence, and
Speaker 1: that's not an interesting conversation. That's why I started off with,
Speaker 1: maybe you could define God for us, like what do
Speaker 1: you consider to be a God? That way we can
Speaker 1: tell you why we are not convinced by that definition,
Speaker 1: or maybe it will convince us. Maybe you'll turn us
Speaker 1: into some kind of you know, religious today.
Speaker 3: Well said, I'm glad you added that last cave yet,
Speaker 3: because it's very important. I think people look at at
Speaker 3: shows like this and the different positions be a fist,
Speaker 3: be an atheist, and philosophers are quickly written off because
Speaker 3: they've got this dogmatic fundamentalism, you know. And and so
Speaker 3: I like how you added that last part that your
Speaker 3: mind is open to being changed. And actually on that point,
Speaker 3: like a lot of people don't think about it, but
Speaker 3: if let's just imagine ten years in the future, you know,
Speaker 3: we're looking at this show and you guys are like
Speaker 3: the used to be atheist experience, and you guys who.
Speaker 4: We're actually convinced and we're.
Speaker 3: Given compelling insight and evidence. Let's face it, there's a
Speaker 3: monetary interest in you guys, particularly you guys, I think
Speaker 3: you're one of the biggest probably names out there, whatever, uh,
Speaker 3: in changing your position, because then every atheist would be like, well,
Speaker 3: what are they saying, why have they changed their what
Speaker 3: are they looking at?
Speaker 4: That would make them now.
Speaker 3: Not be atheists? And likewise, of course the thests would
Speaker 3: all flock here as well, like huh, yeah, see, now
Speaker 3: let's look at this again. You know, it would be
Speaker 3: it would be monetarily advantageous for you guys to change
Speaker 3: the position, not only on monetary basis, but also on
Speaker 3: the uh natural born scientist basis.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: To change your mind would be uh proof that you're
Speaker 3: not dogmatic that you are.
Speaker 2: Maybe if we're a little less scrupulous, then you're you're
Speaker 2: saying that we could there's an opportunity there for us
Speaker 2: to flip and make a ton of cash.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so so, I mean, I mean, obviously it looks
Speaker 3: like goodness. That would be a great thing to to
Speaker 3: see and and and like I say too, it would
Speaker 3: prove stuff, it would prove scientific.
Speaker 1: I appreciate, I totally appreciate the pats on the back
Speaker 1: for us being agnostic like in general about God. But
Speaker 1: maybe we could get to your definition.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's it's very it's very clinical. Actually a lot a
Speaker 3: lot of people, you know, I called it last weeks
Speaker 3: here I noticed maybe five minutes at the end or whatever.
Speaker 3: But it's it's basically in the question of do you
Speaker 3: believe that God exists? Do you believe that that is
Speaker 3: true or not? And it's funny because that word true
Speaker 3: contains the literal ingredients of God. That's God, that word
Speaker 3: exists because of God. We're here to view that word
Speaker 3: because so true.
Speaker 1: So I hold on steph. So, So I define true
Speaker 1: as something that like if something is true, if some
Speaker 1: statement is true, or or something is considered to be true,
Speaker 1: I consider that to be comporting with reality, meaning that
Speaker 1: it represents reality in a factual way that helps me
Speaker 1: navigate reality. Right, So what what about God? What about
Speaker 1: your Because you haven't given us a definition for one,
Speaker 1: For two, I don't know in what way a God
Speaker 1: could be seen as being as being the reason why
Speaker 1: truth exists. Maybe you could lay that out for us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that the active the active ingredient you said the
Speaker 3: word you said, the word reality right there. That that
Speaker 3: would be a very close This is of course a
Speaker 3: particular context of life in this universal locale.
Speaker 2: But are you equating God with reality or God with
Speaker 2: truth or are you saying that those are just not
Speaker 2: characteristics that pop up after Sorry, go ahead, good question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly, no, very very good question. Not exclusively those, Uh,
Speaker 3: this is this is God we're talking about. But it's
Speaker 3: very critical that we're not gonna attempt to put God
Speaker 3: in a side of a box and uh, projected definition
Speaker 3: that is much too small for for God to exist
Speaker 3: within wherein just by mystifying the word, we've effectively called
Speaker 3: our idea of God impossible. I mean, that's that's foolish,
Speaker 3: that's not science, that's not real. You know I'm talking. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but that would be one of them, yes, and it's
Speaker 3: there's there's other synonyms as well. Love would be actually
Speaker 3: the first one.
Speaker 2: Okay, But love and reality are different, so they're they're
Speaker 2: they're not synonyms of the same thing. They might be,
Speaker 2: they might be contributing to part of that definition, but
Speaker 2: they don't mean the same thing. Love and reality and
Speaker 2: truth are all different things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just as water, ice and steam are different things,
Speaker 3: but they're all.
Speaker 2: No, they're different in a much more significant way. Water,
Speaker 2: ice and steam are all still water. They're just in
Speaker 2: a different phase. Is that what you're saying, Truth, Reality,
Speaker 2: and God are all the same thing, just in a
Speaker 2: different phase. Because if that's what you're saying, I think
Speaker 2: we're gonna need a little bit more from you on that.
Speaker 3: Well, let's dig in and I can even continue a
Speaker 3: few more too, because it it's not just love, truth.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, So so hold on, let's let's let's stick
Speaker 1: with your claims here about truth?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 6: Love?
Speaker 1: And I don't know did did you say beauty? I
Speaker 1: kind of got lost?
Speaker 3: Uh no, no, I did the word salad? All right?
Speaker 1: Okay, So so truth? How does so? How does God
Speaker 1: ground truth? Uh? Let's start there, like like how does
Speaker 1: God factor into truth?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 1: Why is it that truth only exists because God exists?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 1: What can you build that bridge for me?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: That is God? That that is that is God.
Speaker 1: But I know that's just that. Hold on, hold on,
Speaker 1: that's just definitional word salad. There, that's a it's a
Speaker 1: it means nothing.
Speaker 3: Well, there's a few more because meaning is actually one
Speaker 3: of them as well. I just did know was there
Speaker 3: six or seven? I just just give me one second
Speaker 3: here a game like I I just want to make
Speaker 3: the point here here it is you can't even write
Speaker 3: it down. We've got love, truth, right, life, We've got innocence,
Speaker 3: we've got information, meaning, and person. I'm seeing those are
Speaker 3: all synonymous, and I'm seeing they're not.
Speaker 1: Those are different concepts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we see frozen water, evaporating water, right,
Speaker 3: liquid water water?
Speaker 2: I can yeah, we can show you how that how
Speaker 2: they're all water. We can look at an ice cube
Speaker 2: and we can break it down, and we can, you know,
Speaker 2: with a strong enough microscope, we can even start seeing
Speaker 2: what's the structure of it. Okay, so you need to
Speaker 2: do the same thing. So how do we how do
Speaker 2: we show that life, truth, love, innocence, information, meaning, and
Speaker 2: person not only not only are they somehow synonyms of
Speaker 2: each other, but also synonyms with God? Is it okay?
Speaker 3: I appreciate you, Scott, Yes, thank you. The first The
Speaker 3: first way I would look at it with with would
Speaker 3: actually it's it's actually a big part of that would
Speaker 3: be let's let's talk about information. I know a long
Speaker 3: time agoing I's first.
Speaker 2: Well, why don't you start with truth? What Ge was
Speaker 2: asking about? Why don't we start with that? You brought
Speaker 2: that up first? How is the fact? So Ge was
Speaker 2: saying truth to him, and I would agree with him.
Speaker 2: Truth is simply a correspondence of a statement with reality.
Speaker 2: If there are two eggs on the table there, and
Speaker 2: I say there are two eggs on the table, there
Speaker 2: is a correspondence with the statement that I'm making with
Speaker 2: with with the physical reality of the table in front
Speaker 2: of me, And you're saying, are you saying that that
Speaker 2: is God? Or that is an aspect of God or
Speaker 2: you're going to need you have a lot of connecting disease.
Speaker 3: I'll get there, don't worry. I mean, I've been on
Speaker 3: this for decades. I haven't called in yet, you know,
Speaker 3: I've kept my mouth shut until.
Speaker 4: I had something to say.
Speaker 3: And now, after decades of taking this matter seriously, I've
Speaker 3: called in because I now have something to say.
Speaker 2: So then stop saying that you have something to say
Speaker 2: and say it. Right, Let's hear it, let's hear it.
Speaker 2: I want to hear. I want to hear what you
Speaker 2: have to say.
Speaker 3: I love that you want to hear. You can see
Speaker 3: the similarity between information, misinformation, truth and lie?
Speaker 4: Do you see those those connections.
Speaker 3: There between because you said, don't do information, do truth?
Speaker 3: But for information it really just explains truth because I
Speaker 3: mean the same thing the same way. But i'd like
Speaker 3: to but you see the similarity between information misinformation?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 1: No, no, So so what may I mean? I guess
Speaker 1: in a in a tangential way, truth, you know matters
Speaker 1: because like something that is informational should comport with reality,
Speaker 1: which would be characterized as truth. Right, but uh, like information,
Speaker 1: you haven't defined information like we've defined truth you haven't
Speaker 1: defined information, but I would really like to stick on
Speaker 1: truth because like, all I've heard is ad hoc claims
Speaker 1: so far. Do you know what an ad hoc claim is?
Speaker 1: Hold on, don't.
Speaker 6: Don't tell you this?
Speaker 1: Yes, can you tell me? Can you tell me what
Speaker 1: ad hoc that hawk is?
Speaker 3: That means what is kind of a thing as as
Speaker 3: I go along?
Speaker 1: No no, no, no no no no no, that's not
Speaker 1: what ad hoc means. At ad hoc means that in
Speaker 1: this particular context, at hawk means that it's unsupported. Like
Speaker 1: it's just a claim, right, So your claim is God
Speaker 1: is truth?
Speaker 3: Okay, unsupported? Unsupported?
Speaker 1: Okay, yep, right, it's unsupported. So now can you please
Speaker 1: support that with some kind of like indication that God
Speaker 1: is truth?
Speaker 3: Sure? And it starts with the the the challenge, the
Speaker 3: I'm sorry my memory, I have a little bit of
Speaker 3: a brain damage, uh for memory wise, it's called like
Speaker 3: the complexity problem of complexity right where it's said like, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, if you're willing to say that of God
Speaker 3: made youth, and you also have to explain what made
Speaker 3: this God?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 3: I mean that makes that makes sense? You know, I
Speaker 3: think you got are familiar with it is. That's called
Speaker 3: problem of complexity.
Speaker 1: Problem, problem of complexity? No, what can you can you
Speaker 1: restate it again?
Speaker 3: If if if you claim that God made you, then
Speaker 3: tell me what made your God? What's that called?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 1: No, that would be like an infinite regress. And that's
Speaker 1: kind of a malformed version of it, of of the
Speaker 1: problem of like infinite God's creating each other. Like typically
Speaker 1: apologists will form it in the way of saying, like,
Speaker 1: you know, well, everything that comes into existence in this
Speaker 1: universe had to be created by something, and so like,
Speaker 1: if God exists in in this universe in some kind
Speaker 1: of way, then God needed to be created. So what
Speaker 1: God created that God? And then if that God existing
Speaker 1: in just infinite.
Speaker 2: Regress in the in the in the context of complexity,
Speaker 2: do you mean that? Do you mean? Are you saying
Speaker 2: that something that's more complex needs to be caused by
Speaker 2: something that is less complex? Is that what you mean
Speaker 2: by the law of complexity?
Speaker 3: I just wanted to reference the idea I said infinite regression.
Speaker 4: I said a problem of complexity, same thing.
Speaker 3: I just wanted to make sure we're talking about the
Speaker 3: same thing.
Speaker 4: So when you take that idea, those.
Speaker 2: Are different things.
Speaker 1: I feel like we're having problems with like words like I.
Speaker 3: Haven't got to finish. Yeah, just let me finish my
Speaker 3: point here real quick. When you take that idea of
Speaker 3: problem complexity, we find something interesting. We find that when
Speaker 3: we take information itself and say, what could ever be
Speaker 3: the catalyst of information itself? What could we ever imagine
Speaker 3: and point to and say, hey, that right there, that's
Speaker 3: what quote unquote created information itself. We would have to
Speaker 3: be pointing at some time.
Speaker 1: Sorry, stuff, And this is grating on me. This is
Speaker 1: like nails on a chalkboard. Stuff. Okay, you've worked for
Speaker 1: ten years. You have molled over this for ten years,
Speaker 1: getting your thoughts together, and you've so far not been
Speaker 1: able to string together a coherent like argument or sentence.
Speaker 1: So far, it's just been words out.
Speaker 3: I haven't got to land.
Speaker 1: Up plan yet, let me land so steph. We have
Speaker 1: afforded you a lot of time to talk here, and
Speaker 1: I've asked you repeatedly to define, you know, define different
Speaker 1: things to find God, which you've just made ad hoc
Speaker 1: statements about the components that comprise God, but you haven't
Speaker 1: actually defined God. So we've given you a lot of time.
Speaker 1: If it takes a dissertation level investigation into your definition
Speaker 1: of God to have the conversation. Then this is not
Speaker 1: the venue for you. Right. If it takes you thirty
Speaker 1: minutes to get through your word salad, just for us
Speaker 1: to be at the end with so many different things
Speaker 1: for us to actually try to contend with that we
Speaker 1: can't even begin to tackle it, then you've just stumbled
Speaker 1: into either you know, a gish gallop is what you've done,
Speaker 1: or you've just steamrolled us in the conversation so that
Speaker 1: we can't actually refute anything. That's a typical apologist move, right.
Speaker 1: We're not going to allow that. You want to take
Speaker 1: things one thing at a time. So like you've given
Speaker 1: us a list and it's a it's a robust list
Speaker 1: of ad hoc claims, and we're just asking you to
Speaker 1: stick with one. You started with truth. Let's start with truth,
Speaker 1: and you want to pivot to information, which you actually
Speaker 1: haven't defined yet at all. We don't know what this
Speaker 1: information is, or what it's comprised of, or how God
Speaker 1: is needed for it. So let's stick with truth, right.
Speaker 1: I don't I do not do not want to hear
Speaker 1: information come out of your mouth again until we handle truth. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's stick with truth, and let's right you saying
Speaker 1: that's what God is, but you have Oh my god,
Speaker 1: you just said information. Ever I told you don't use
Speaker 1: the word information.
Speaker 3: I can Let's show you. I can show you how works.
Speaker 3: I can show you. I can show you how how
Speaker 3: it works that God's situation itself, I can show you.
Speaker 2: I doubt that. But how about this, how about this?
Speaker 2: How about we take it from the other side. If
Speaker 2: there were no God, if there were no God, then
Speaker 2: why would statements not be able to align with reality?
Speaker 3: God's information?
Speaker 4: There'd be nothing in existence, nothing to talk.
Speaker 3: About, much less people to talk about.
Speaker 1: What does it mean that God is information? Holy fuck?
Speaker 1: You're just defining God into existence?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 3: So we're like, hey, let's mix some rockets. We try
Speaker 3: a whole bunch of times, and they keep blowing up
Speaker 3: on the space pads. What's happened that rocket would blow up?
Speaker 3: We've done something wrong. We've missed God.
Speaker 1: God has tea bagged the rockets and has caused them
Speaker 1: to explode. Explain that there's your information. Allow God tea
Speaker 1: bags rockets and they explode when he tea bags them.
Speaker 3: A lack a lack of God would have the rockets explode?
Speaker 1: The lack of God? Where is God in a rocket?
Speaker 3: The information is what I want to I swear to Christ.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna say this really soft right now,
Speaker 1: Okay almost ASMR. Like, if you say information and God
Speaker 1: is information, one more fucking time, I'm gonna drop you
Speaker 1: like a bad habit. Okay, that's grading on me. Stop it. Okay,
Speaker 1: where is God in the rocket? I know you said information,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't actually tell me anything. Okay, tell me off. Sure,
Speaker 1: that doesn't tell me anything either.
Speaker 3: Why do you keep interrupting me.
Speaker 4: I haven't gotten a chance to tell you anything.
Speaker 3: You keep interrupting me before.
Speaker 1: You've told me plenty of things. You've told me plenty
Speaker 1: of things that don't mean anything. You've just made more
Speaker 1: ad hoc statements like god. A lack of God is
Speaker 1: why why fucking rockets explode. So you're telling me that
Speaker 1: the Shuttle disaster in the early nineteen nineties that was
Speaker 1: because of there was a lack of God. But every
Speaker 1: other every other launch before then had had God in
Speaker 1: the midst Where is God in those particular things? And
Speaker 1: why are you saying that the people that died on
Speaker 1: that shuttle, in that in in in that explosion. Why
Speaker 1: are you saying that they somehow lacked God and that's
Speaker 1: the reason why it exploded. Do you understand how fucking
Speaker 1: ridiculous your position is right now at all?
Speaker 3: No? No, no, you're not hearing what I'm.
Speaker 2: Saying that death don't Yeah, you're right, I don't think
Speaker 2: you understand.
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Steph?
Speaker 8: What does it mean?
Speaker 1: What does the lack of God mean? You're just saying
Speaker 1: it's a lack of God. What does that look like
Speaker 1: other than an exploding rocket? What factor of God? And
Speaker 1: what lack of God in that causes the the fucking
Speaker 1: rocket to explode?
Speaker 3: In accuracy? Miss infnet.
Speaker 2: Steph, the reason that we keep interrupting you is because
Speaker 2: we don't understand what you're saying.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, it's it's it's it's subtle, it's unassuming, but
Speaker 3: well it's subtle.
Speaker 2: Could one explanation? Okay, now, I just I haven't got
Speaker 2: a good answer from you. What if there was no God?
Speaker 2: Why is it that somebody could say there's two eggs
Speaker 2: on the table and that would not be able to
Speaker 2: correspond with reality?
Speaker 3: Eggs require informative propit. You need information itself that I.
Speaker 4: Call something an egg. Eggs are made of information itself.
Speaker 2: Whether we call it the egg or not, it's still
Speaker 2: a thing, right. It doesn't require us to understand it.
Speaker 2: It doesn't require us to explain it. We can point
Speaker 2: at it, we can call it something. Whether whether or
Speaker 2: not I even know anything about the table, I can
Speaker 2: still say there are two eggs on the table, and
Speaker 2: that can still correspond with reality, even if I'm totally
Speaker 2: ignorant of tables and eggs.
Speaker 3: I got you, I got Yeah. So what you're describing
Speaker 3: as information you think I think this dere miscimmunication is
Speaker 3: you're thinking of it as being something subjective. It's not.
Speaker 3: It's objective by definition.
Speaker 2: It's I'm not talking about information. I'm talking about Why
Speaker 2: can't truth exists without God? You said God was the
Speaker 2: correlation between a statement and reality. A correlation is just
Speaker 2: a relationship between facts of the universe, and you're saying
Speaker 2: that they can't correlate without God. Why God?
Speaker 3: God is that reality? When you say there's two eggs there,
Speaker 3: when you call them eggs or snakes or whatever you
Speaker 3: want to call them, that that set up the informative
Speaker 3: properties that makes them an egg information itself. If you
Speaker 3: don't have God your eggs in the first place.
Speaker 2: So so this all boils down to God is reality.
Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 3: Yes, quite, that's simple, but yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: That would not part so God. Well, so when I
Speaker 1: take away from this and correct me if I'm wrong
Speaker 1: in this understanding Scott, But I feel like what he's
Speaker 1: saying is that God is reality and reality is God.
Speaker 1: So everything is God like just everything in real This
Speaker 1: is I called it. I wanted to. I just want
Speaker 1: to pat myself on the back here at the very bit,
Speaker 1: because at the very beginning I said, if you're just
Speaker 1: in Jordan Peter and define it into just an ambiguous
Speaker 1: everything is God, then there's no point in us having
Speaker 1: this conversation that was twenty minutes ago.
Speaker 3: Except for the misinformation, that's my point. Except for the misinformation,
Speaker 3: except for the inaccuracy, except for the death, except for
Speaker 3: the selfishness, except for the meaningless, except for the why
Speaker 3: are you crashing out right?
Speaker 4: Oh I'm not crushing out, I'm like, except for those things,
Speaker 4: except for.
Speaker 2: Those things, those things aren't God. No, do you when
Speaker 2: we say that we're atheists, do you think that we
Speaker 2: mean that we don't believe in reality. Do you think
Speaker 2: anybody that says I don't believe in God means they
Speaker 2: don't believe in reality? And on the other side of that,
Speaker 2: do you think anybody besides yourself that says I believe
Speaker 2: in God means that they believe in reality?
Speaker 3: To me, it looks clear that there's an illiteracy going on.
Speaker 2: But to you, do you I think that's what they mean?
Speaker 2: Is this just something in your head?
Speaker 3: Well, they're working within non functional, illiterate nothing definition of God.
Speaker 3: I really don't blame most atheists for considering that what's
Speaker 3: been And by the way, you're not the only ones
Speaker 3: that the theists have historically done a rotten job of
Speaker 3: representing God well as well. I don't blame you. I'm Steph. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the definition is is a non starter.
Speaker 1: It's just no. I well, I feel like I feel
Speaker 1: like your understanding and definition of God is a non
Speaker 1: starter because you're just defining God as everything. But also
Speaker 1: I want to point out a bit of a.
Speaker 4: Flaw and everything except for what not.
Speaker 3: Everything not everything, Steph, is not a type of information?
Speaker 1: No, well, yes it is. It's it's wrong information, right,
Speaker 1: misinformation is wrong information, but it still exists in reality.
Speaker 1: Misinformation is everywhere right now, especially in the United States. Right. Also,
Speaker 1: like a lack of love could be you could classify
Speaker 1: that as hate. You could classify it as being indifferent, right,
Speaker 1: that would be a lack of love. But both of
Speaker 1: those things still exist in reality. So what it seems
Speaker 1: to me? And correct me if I'm wrong. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to I'm trying to calm down, and I'm trying to
Speaker 1: steal man your argument here, thank you. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: steal man your argument in that you're saying that God
Speaker 1: is reality except when reality is on the flip side
Speaker 1: of the good aspects of God. Right, God is only
Speaker 1: the good parts of reality and the rest of reality
Speaker 1: isn't isn't God? Is that correct?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, thanks, thanks for thanks for the point. That's why
Speaker 3: I balked. I think for intention purposes. Yeah, but I
Speaker 3: had to balk at it because this is a context
Speaker 3: of life that we're dealing with here, in this universal locale,
Speaker 3: and in this context of life, we have a mishmash.
Speaker 4: We have a we have.
Speaker 3: An ungodly matters being mixed with godly matters. We have
Speaker 3: being mixed with life, untruth be mixed with truth, meaninglessness
Speaker 3: being mixed with meaning, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Stuff. Are you just like a deist or or are
Speaker 1: you like part of the Abrahamic religions?
Speaker 3: If if I could give you a definition, a box
Speaker 3: with which should I fit, I would gladly offer it up.
Speaker 3: I said. The closest wea you get with maybe BCUs
Speaker 3: that's what the guy asked, you see is this that
Speaker 3: before we got on the show.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're just you're just a classical theist, I
Speaker 1: got it. I don't know, Scott, do you have anything,
Speaker 1: because I feel like we're not getting anywhere and he's
Speaker 1: not answering our questions and he's just trying to steamroll
Speaker 1: us with the Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think we're discovering what I mean, Steph, I understand
Speaker 2: the desire to want to share your thoughts with people,
Speaker 2: I think, and you've mentioned that you've had trouble communicating
Speaker 2: that in the past, and you're having trouble communicating that
Speaker 2: now now. Whether that's our fault because we're not ready
Speaker 2: to hear what you're saying, whether we're not understanding what
Speaker 2: you're saying, but it could also be also be on
Speaker 2: your end. It could be a miscommunication on your end.
Speaker 2: Maybe you're not expressing yourself correctly, or maybe what you're
Speaker 2: thinking about really doesn't make any sense, and it just
Speaker 2: seems like it makes sense to you. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: while I would love to, I mean what you're saying,
Speaker 2: it sounds interesting to me to the extent that it's
Speaker 2: not gibberish, But you're really, you know, flirting with that
Speaker 2: gibberish end of the spectrum there. And I think that
Speaker 2: I don't I have no confidence ge to answer your question.
Speaker 2: I don't have any confidence that we're going to get
Speaker 2: any further in this call. And I don't necessarily think
Speaker 2: it's because of any particular reason other than just a
Speaker 2: breakdown in communication.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 4: Fifteen seconds, give me fifteen seconds.
Speaker 1: Sure, we'll give you fifteen seconds, but I'm going to
Speaker 1: be counting. I'm gonna be strict about it, and then
Speaker 1: we're going to drop you.
Speaker 4: Okay, sounds good, fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 3: You want to send a r.
Speaker 4: Get to the moon. If you did the calculations crept,
Speaker 4: if you're accurate, if you comported with reality, if you
Speaker 4: comported with information, you get to the moon. If you
Speaker 4: miss if if misinformation leaks in there, if you're wrong,
Speaker 4: if you're inaccurate, you miss the mark God gets.
Speaker 1: Okay, sorry I dropped you at fifteen seconds, he asked,
Speaker 1: He's the one that set that time ref him. So
Speaker 1: as far as Steph as as far as he was saying,
Speaker 1: there goes like, I don't know. It felt like just
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of word salad there at the end,
Speaker 1: Like I don't I don't know what he was talking about.
Speaker 1: He's he mentioned rockets again. I still don't understand how
Speaker 1: like a lack of God causes rockets to explode, Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I took that pretty personally. I mean,
Speaker 1: like I actually personally met the astronauts that were on
Speaker 1: on that particular ship that in the early nineties. I
Speaker 1: can't remember which one it was was that was that Columbia.
Speaker 1: I can't remember the Challenger, the Challenger, Yeah, the Challenger explosion.
Speaker 1: I actually met the astronauts that were on that, and
Speaker 1: so like it, I mean to say that, like rockets
Speaker 1: explode because there are there's a lack of God in there.
Speaker 1: It just it seems like meaningless words.
Speaker 2: Oulid that's yeah, yeah, well, to me, it sounded like
Speaker 2: like he has some thoughts in his head. Maybe he's
Speaker 2: struggling with you know, maybe on on the fence in
Speaker 2: some ways. I suppose I don't want to put words
Speaker 2: in his mouth, but it sounded like he was having
Speaker 2: difficulty expressing thoughts that were in his head. And you know,
Speaker 2: I don't think we really came to any kind of
Speaker 2: useful conclusion, at least not useful for us. But you know, Steph,
Speaker 2: I hope you got something useful out of this conversation,
Speaker 2: at the very least, that the way you're trying to
Speaker 2: communicate your ideas is breaking down, and and you know,
Speaker 2: we just couldn't make the connection you were trying to make.
Speaker 2: That's that you were trying to say. That seems so obvious,
Speaker 2: and you know, so I would I would maybe go
Speaker 2: back and listen to what we're saying and see if
Speaker 2: you can kind of map out what you were trying
Speaker 2: to say, and then give us a callback, and you know,
Speaker 2: who knows, maybe we can make a little bit more progress.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally agree. Before we move to our next color,
Speaker 1: which we do have another color lined up, but I
Speaker 1: do want to make a few announcements. Got to do
Speaker 1: all of our you know, add many stuff. We now
Speaker 1: have a word from our fellow hosts Jamie the Blind
Speaker 1: Limey about an exciting May event.
Speaker 8: Jamie the Blind lime here and I've got some interesting
Speaker 8: news for you. On Saturday, May sixteenth, at six pm,
Speaker 8: we'll be hosting our twenty four hour we Are Here
Speaker 8: live stream and fundraiser to highlight secular voices around the world.
Speaker 8: We've invited dozens of your favorite content creators like Genetically
Speaker 8: Modified Skeptic, the Antibot, Justin d Z and more to
Speaker 8: let the world know that we are here and we're
Speaker 8: not going anywhere. If you're here in Austin, come join
Speaker 8: us at Free Thought at fifteen oh seven West Cain
Speaker 8: and Length.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 8: We'll be kicking things off in style, and if you're online,
Speaker 8: do join us on the Atheist Experience channel to check
Speaker 8: out the stream and joining the fun. So join us
Speaker 8: from wherever you are in the world, and together we
Speaker 8: can dedicate ourselves to secular humanist values wherever we are.
Speaker 2: All right, Thanks Jamie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you Jamie for the info on the upcoming
Speaker 1: twenty four hour live stream and fundraiser on May sixteenth
Speaker 1: at six pm. So I'm playing. I actually just got
Speaker 1: done talking to Maria today about what I can do
Speaker 1: to contribute, and I know I'm the seventeenth. I believe
Speaker 1: I'm scheduled to be on AXP, so I'll be doing that.
Speaker 1: But I'm also probably going to be doing a segment
Speaker 1: where I talk about mythicism. That's the idea that Jesus
Speaker 1: never existed as a real historical person, So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do something with that. I think that Percifists.
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody knows who I.
Speaker 2: Was gonna say. We're going to see a new another appearance.
Speaker 6: By the.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the Secular Wins. Yeah, Yeah, I believe
Speaker 1: I'm going to be doing our Procifist rather is going
Speaker 1: to be doing something with Secular Arty, so I can't
Speaker 1: wait for that. But we also now want to send
Speaker 1: a big thank you out there to the crew who
Speaker 1: put this show together. Every week. It's video operators, audio operators,
Speaker 1: note takers, chat moderators, all of y'all are doing awesome.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for making this show great. We
Speaker 1: definitely appreciate all of those wonderful crew members back there.
Speaker 1: If you would like to be one of our crew members,
Speaker 1: or be a guest on one of our shows, or
Speaker 1: even eventually become a host. We're always looking for people
Speaker 1: interest in being part of our productions, so you can
Speaker 1: email volunteer at atheistdashcommunity dot org to get involved. And
Speaker 1: if you want to help out, please do email that.
Speaker 1: We could always use the extra help. So let's see,
Speaker 1: do I think that we do have another We do
Speaker 1: still have another call in there, But if you're over
Speaker 1: there on the TikTok it would be great. It would
Speaker 1: be awesome if you could keep tapping on that screen
Speaker 1: there to get those hearts up. We've got two point
Speaker 1: one thousand hearts over there, we got twenty five people watching.
Speaker 1: If everybody just took a few seconds to just constantly
Speaker 1: tap on the screen there to get those hearts up,
Speaker 1: that would really help us out. Sharing the live would
Speaker 1: also help us out. Reposting and all that kind of
Speaker 1: good stuff would also help. But if you are in
Speaker 1: the TikTok chat, please request up if you would like
Speaker 1: to talk to us. We would love to take a
Speaker 1: call from TikTok today. If you know anybody out there
Speaker 1: that likes to talk a lot of crap about eighth
Speaker 1: you just share the live with them, maybe they'll maybe
Speaker 1: maybe they'll actually request up. If you're on on the
Speaker 1: YouTube's you can call in at five one two nine
Speaker 1: nine nine four two, or you can hit up tiny
Speaker 1: dot cc ford slash call axp uh. I started out
Speaker 1: the show today with the problem of evil, you know,
Speaker 1: very basic problem for an omni benevolent god. If you
Speaker 1: would like to discuss that, we would love to discuss
Speaker 1: that with you, or anything else atheist and secular related.
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk to AJ from Canada. Now, AJ,
Speaker 1: what up there?
Speaker 6: AJ?
Speaker 1: How you doing?
Speaker 4: What up good?
Speaker 1: How are you doing? Guys doing pretty good? So what
Speaker 1: you want to talk about today?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 7: I was chatting with a friend of mine, he's a Muslim,
Speaker 7: and we got talking about how life started and one
Speaker 7: of this points that he brought up and I was
Speaker 7: really struggling to get around.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I think I lost AJ. Did you lose
Speaker 1: a J?
Speaker 3: Two?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 2: AJ, the his audio just dropped out there, Uh a J.
Speaker 1: You're you're on the web color. So if you're on
Speaker 1: your phone, you may need to wake your phone up
Speaker 1: or something. Uh your screen could have gone dark.
Speaker 2: Oh no, yep, I heard something. He ended up I, Uh, well,
Speaker 2: we heard a clip.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we heard clicks and then you you said,
Speaker 1: did you hear all that? And so no, we did not.
Speaker 2: Here you guys, you can't hear us now.
Speaker 7: Yes, I don't know if you caught Uh what I what?
Speaker 7: I just said?
Speaker 2: No, we missed the last thing, he said, So why
Speaker 2: don't you repeat then?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 7: So I was chatting with with my most of my friends,
Speaker 7: and we ended up talking about consciousness, and eventually I
Speaker 7: couldn't get around to explaining it to him, and we
Speaker 7: ended up down a rabbit hole where it was like, well,
Speaker 7: if you started as unconscious, well you're probably unconscious now
Speaker 7: and I can't take any points from you, and it
Speaker 7: was just a rabbit hole. So I was wondering how
Speaker 7: you would explain it to someone else, How an unconscious
Speaker 7: start to lead to consciousness?
Speaker 1: Uh, Scott, what are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean all of us start out unconscious, right
Speaker 2: If we know, we start out, as you know, as
Speaker 2: a handful of cells, and those handful of cells are
Speaker 2: not conscious and so we eventually developed consciousness. That's kind
Speaker 2: of a quick and easy answer. I would think that
Speaker 2: if we want to dive into the answer, a little
Speaker 2: bit deeper. We need to really define and this is
Speaker 2: not an easy task I'm about to give you, But
Speaker 2: we need to define what consciousness is, you know. And
Speaker 2: I believe that if we have a good definition of consciousness,
Speaker 2: much of the answer to your question will become evident.
Speaker 2: So can you give us uh, you know, for the
Speaker 2: purposes of your question, what do you mean by consciousness?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 7: I believe what uh. In that discussion, what we were
Speaker 7: ending up with is something along the lines of like
Speaker 7: being a conscious being you would need to have I
Speaker 7: think he was going down the the idea of conscious
Speaker 7: beings can only come from other conscious beings. And if
Speaker 7: you started out evolutionary as an unconscious bunch of electrons
Speaker 7: and neutrons that created life, then then that's impossible. We
Speaker 7: did not really define consciousness.
Speaker 2: But so it sounds like it's an argument from personal incredulity,
Speaker 2: like you just don't know, and so what's the So
Speaker 2: where do you go from there? So let's say, so
Speaker 2: you and your friend, did you figure out where consciousness
Speaker 2: came from? Or did you end up in I don't know?
Speaker 7: And then I don't know, but I believe he was
Speaker 7: eventually just saying you can't create consciousness out of an
Speaker 7: unconscious process, which eventually leads to God creating everything, and
Speaker 7: that's where consciousness comes from.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's where that leads. But so
Speaker 2: did you ask him why not when he said consciousness
Speaker 2: can only arise from other consciousness? Yes, and you asked
Speaker 2: what you did? You ask why not? And if so,
Speaker 2: what was his response?
Speaker 6: Not?
Speaker 7: Really, it just was basically assumed that.
Speaker 2: I guess, Okay, well, if you assume that you're going
Speaker 2: to have problems, yeah, yeah, well that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So yeah. And the way that I take this particular
Speaker 1: topic like consciousness or you know, the the I guess,
Speaker 1: I think they call it the hard problem of consciousness,
Speaker 1: and that's a mind body dualism, right, like what what
Speaker 1: is consciousness and how does that relate to you know,
Speaker 1: your physical body? And I take consciousness as being an
Speaker 1: emergent property of a complex central nervous system. So as
Speaker 1: long as you have a complex enough nervous system, then
Speaker 1: you'll eventually have consciousness arise. So I think that with
Speaker 1: with it being an emergent property of a central nervous
Speaker 1: system that is complex enough, I think that it's already
Speaker 1: like arising out of like it's already arising out of
Speaker 1: non consciousness, right because like you know, the actual the
Speaker 1: actual physical material of our bodies in our brain would
Speaker 1: be not conscious, right, but the complex interactions of our
Speaker 1: neurons and the chemicals in our brains causes consciousness to
Speaker 1: emerge from that, right. And there's there's other there's other
Speaker 1: things that are emergent properties, like a good A good
Speaker 1: simple example would be like the horizon line. The horizon
Speaker 1: line isn't an actual line. It emerges from you know,
Speaker 1: your visual uh, you taking in that visual stimuli where
Speaker 1: you know, the land meets the sky and it creates
Speaker 1: this imaginary line that we call the horizon, right, And
Speaker 1: so it's it's more of an emergent property of what
Speaker 1: you're seeing as opposed to something that actually exists, like
Speaker 1: you know in that same way that the land or
Speaker 1: that the sky exists. So consciousness being this emergent property,
Speaker 1: I think it's already you know, emerging from non consciousness,
Speaker 1: being that it's emerging from like our physical brains.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess what this makes sense
Speaker 7: in the sense of like us today with with the
Speaker 7: complex city that we have and everything that goes on
Speaker 7: to create that experience. But when we went back in
Speaker 7: the discussion to the beginning of life, it was much
Speaker 7: harder to actually like create that easy connection to say, oh,
Speaker 7: there's a complex nervous system that creates that.
Speaker 1: Well, so I mean a complex central nervous system comes
Speaker 1: much later in evolutionary history, right like when life first emerged.
Speaker 1: I typically go with like the RNA world hypothesis. You
Speaker 1: know that RNA existed first, and then it eventually developed
Speaker 1: into DNA, which then eventually developed into you know, single
Speaker 1: celled organisms. And then the single celled organism started clumping
Speaker 1: together and specializing and all and developed into multi cellu organisms.
Speaker 1: So like all of that, it eventually escalates into you know,
Speaker 1: complex central nervous systems where consciousness can run. And so
Speaker 1: like where I think that there's there's a confusion on
Speaker 1: the actual evolutionary timeline in this particular respect. I remember
Speaker 1: earlier when you were talking about how like electrons and
Speaker 1: neurons and all this other stuff can't cause consciousness to arise.
Speaker 1: But it's like you're jump like that, that conversation's jumping
Speaker 1: so many different steps that's it's nearly incoherent. I mean,
Speaker 1: I can parse through it because I've been doing this
Speaker 1: for like fifteen years or so. Yeah, but I think
Speaker 1: for most people like that would seem incoherent because it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: electrons don't cause consciousness, but life also doesn't spawn from
Speaker 1: just you know, random atoms clashing into each other. That's
Speaker 1: not what a biogenesis is. That's not what evolutionary the
Speaker 1: evolutionary hypothesis is. Are not hypothesis, sorry, evolutionary theory is.
Speaker 1: That's just not what any of that is.
Speaker 7: Okay, So maybe that's where the confusion is because in
Speaker 7: our discussion, and you have to imagine there's a few
Speaker 7: levels to this discussion, like not only he's a believer,
Speaker 7: but he doesn't believe in evolution, and then then there's
Speaker 7: like probably other like ten other layers of that discussion.
Speaker 7: So to start off, I explained that life began through random,
Speaker 7: random trial and error. Essentially, there was an environment where
Speaker 7: there was enough trial and error that created the first organism,
Speaker 7: and then that's where evolution kicked off. Is that is
Speaker 7: that how you would explain it to someone else?
Speaker 2: Or is there a randomness would contribute to that? But
Speaker 2: it's not, you know, it's not just all random, it's
Speaker 2: not just chaos and then something pops out of it.
Speaker 2: You know, there's reality, there's you know, nature operating on
Speaker 2: various things, and so it's it's not. Yes, random contributes
Speaker 2: to the process of evolution, but randomness is not aonymous
Speaker 2: with evolution. Is that what you're saying.
Speaker 7: No, I'm not saying it's synonymous, but I'm saying, well,
Speaker 7: and if we go back to the to the beginnings,
Speaker 7: where it was the first organism that evolution pushed or
Speaker 7: the environment pushed to to come to be, then how
Speaker 7: do you actually explain that to someone else, because they
Speaker 7: would say, basically, the argument is you can't really end
Speaker 7: up with conscious being from.
Speaker 2: But they're just saying that, right, I mean, what did
Speaker 2: what did you just say? It was just saying consciousness
Speaker 2: is an emergent property of a complex nervous system. We
Speaker 2: have a nervous system. We have a complex nervous system.
Speaker 2: Therefore consciousness arises from that. If your friend is trying
Speaker 2: to impose other restrictions like oh, you can't do that, well,
Speaker 2: then it's no surprise that he's coming to a different conclusion.
Speaker 2: The question is does he have any reason, any good
Speaker 2: reason to make that statement in the first place.
Speaker 7: No, I don't think so. I think, but as far
Speaker 7: as I understand it, if you go back far enough
Speaker 7: to the beginning of living beings and the beginnings of life,
Speaker 7: then you would end up in a place where those
Speaker 7: early beings were not conscious in the same sense that
Speaker 7: us humans are conscious, and even today like our I
Speaker 7: don't know how to explain it, but our level of
Speaker 7: consciousness is probably higher compared to other beings that we
Speaker 7: have today.
Speaker 2: And Okay, I think that's an important point there. I
Speaker 2: think that it's important to note that consciousness. And somebody
Speaker 2: in the chat mentioned this as well. Consciousness is not
Speaker 2: just an on and off. It's not just a binary,
Speaker 2: it's a it's a spectrum, right, And so it's not
Speaker 2: like all of us there was nothing and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden consciousness arose as our nervous systems or
Speaker 2: as our nervous system analogs in you know, in proto
Speaker 2: animals and and you know, our our forefathers and so forth.
Speaker 2: As that gained in complexity, it gave us more ability
Speaker 2: to uh, you know, expand our conscious experience. We learn
Speaker 2: how to do different you know, our the the level
Speaker 2: of complexity can support certain complex actions and that's just
Speaker 2: something that gradually has been increasing over time.
Speaker 7: Okay, Yeah, that makes sense, because I was I was
Speaker 7: struggling because at some point the discussion just became pointless, honestly,
Speaker 7: because they were making the assumption that you have to
Speaker 7: have conscious being to create conscious beings, and consciousness knot
Speaker 7: just to rise out of a vacuum kind of thing.
Speaker 7: And then you end up with a law creating everything,
Speaker 7: and he's the reason for all of this.
Speaker 1: Okay, So now I get where you're coming from on this.
Speaker 1: My advice if you get into this conversation again with
Speaker 1: anybody and for anybody out there, is to really hone
Speaker 1: in on the ad hoc claims, because like with the
Speaker 1: first caller, you have to be able to identify when
Speaker 1: they're not supporting it and they're just saying things like
Speaker 1: they're just making statements. If you can actually identify where
Speaker 1: things need to have support for them, then you can.
Speaker 1: I mean that I'm not saying this to like stall
Speaker 1: the conversation or anything or whatnot, But if they're going
Speaker 1: to say things like consciousness can't arise from non consciousness,
Speaker 1: they need to like provide the evidence that that can't happen, right,
Speaker 1: so like, I don't know what that evidence would look like,
Speaker 1: because that's not how you know reality works. But my
Speaker 1: guess is that they wouldn't be able to explain it either.
Speaker 1: In my experience, a lot of people are just regurgitating
Speaker 1: what they've heard apologists say, or regurgitating what they've heard
Speaker 1: their favorite YouTube apologists say, and they're just saying things.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 1: If we nail them down and we get them to
Speaker 1: actually substantiate their statements, then you have a better chance
Speaker 1: of them realizing that they don't have a good reason
Speaker 1: for saying that themselves, and so it's like you don't
Speaker 1: you then don't have to convince them away from it.
Speaker 1: They convince themselves away from a bad position.
Speaker 7: And do you know if there is an example, I
Speaker 7: know it's really hard to map out examples onto these
Speaker 7: cases because you know, we only have one life and
Speaker 7: this is the only living environment that we ever saw before,
Speaker 7: So you can't easily just come up with an example
Speaker 7: to say, well, here's an example of how an unconscious
Speaker 7: process can create consciousness. Like I was going to go
Speaker 7: down like to explain it through like how gravity creates
Speaker 7: the planets and things like that, and it's an unconscious process.
Speaker 7: But then the discussion was like, wait, so planets are
Speaker 7: not conscious, so it doesn't really work in this case.
Speaker 7: And I realize that, but it's really hard to come
Speaker 7: up with an example to make it close at least,
Speaker 7: or to kind of lighten up that bulb in their
Speaker 7: in their minds right to show them.
Speaker 2: Well, I would say it's hard to make a complete example,
Speaker 2: but I mean it's if you I mean, if you're
Speaker 2: expecting it to appear just out of nowhere, then yeah,
Speaker 2: and if you're if the person you're talking to makes
Speaker 2: that ad hoc statement, you can't have you can't have
Speaker 2: consciousness arise out of unconscious matter of course, there's going
Speaker 2: to be an issue. Yeah. And so just as gu
Speaker 2: was saying, you got to call them on that, you
Speaker 2: got to say, Okay, that's the roadblock. Everything we say
Speaker 2: after this doesn't make a difference because you're assuming this
Speaker 2: one thing. You're assuming basically they were assuming their conclusion, right,
Speaker 2: and that's a that's a logical fallacy right there. And
Speaker 2: if they're not, if just ask them straight up, are
Speaker 2: you assuming that or can you back it up? And
Speaker 2: if they if they say that they're assuming it, then
Speaker 2: you have then you can point out you can say, ah,
Speaker 2: then your then your conclusions are based on your assumption.
Speaker 2: If they're not assuming it, then you can say, okay,
Speaker 2: then let's why are you not assuming it?
Speaker 7: And then probably one of the first questions they would
Speaker 7: probably ask is what, well, why are you assuming that
Speaker 7: you can create consciousness out of nothing or out of did.
Speaker 2: You do you assume that? But if you did assume that,
Speaker 2: then you should be prepared to back that up. If
Speaker 2: you did assume that, though, and they're accusing you of
Speaker 2: assuming it, then call them on that too. Then they're
Speaker 2: assuming that you're assuming.
Speaker 7: But isn't the assumption here? Isn't that the assumption here
Speaker 7: with evolution that essentially an unconscious process and up with
Speaker 7: with conscious beings for us eventually?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean not an assumption to my knowledge.
Speaker 1: So I mean, well, the fact that that like evolution
Speaker 1: as a process, isn't conscious like it. That's not so
Speaker 1: while it ended up like in in the in the
Speaker 1: evolutionary process, we get to a point where consciousness arises. Right,
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that evolution is necessarily the cause of it.
Speaker 1: It explains it explains how organisms change over time. And
Speaker 1: I would say that you know, consciousness is kind of
Speaker 1: like I guess in the in this case, like an
Speaker 1: intitable thing that would develop. But I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: saying evolution like is the cause of consciousness, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I would have to think about that more,
Speaker 1: but yeah, it definitely wouldn't be like an assumption that
Speaker 1: I would make on that part. But I also, you know,
Speaker 1: if anybody tries to suggest that, it almost seems like
Speaker 1: a loaded question or a loaded statement, like, you know,
Speaker 1: because it seems like there's like this assumption that there's
Speaker 1: some kind of consciousness behind all processes, right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, because that would be the the the Islamic explanation
Speaker 7: of life is that conscious being being God initiated. Like
Speaker 7: they can go really far in this explanation to say
Speaker 7: even evolution, even evolution itself was a process that God initiated,
Speaker 7: and they can always step one step behind and say, oh,
Speaker 7: as science shows that evolution is true, then God created
Speaker 7: evolution and that's how you have the consciousness initiating the
Speaker 7: pros right right.
Speaker 1: Well, that would be called a moving the goal post fallacy,
Speaker 1: and it's fallacious because once they've disproven on something, then
Speaker 1: they just change it to something else and it's just
Speaker 1: an ever moving goal post that they're doing in order
Speaker 1: for their particular position to remain alive, as opposed to
Speaker 1: just admitting that, yeah, that's wrong, right, and so like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not saying that you need to be like, ah,
Speaker 1: that's shifting the goal post. That's a blunder kind of thing.
Speaker 1: You don't need to do that.
Speaker 7: It's not easy to do that, even to remember all
Speaker 7: these terms, and.
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't do that necessarily. But what I would
Speaker 1: do is just for your own sake being able to
Speaker 1: identify it when they're doing these fallacious apologetic moves, just
Speaker 1: so that you can identify for yourself like, oh, he's
Speaker 1: not actually gaining ground in this. Like I feel like
Speaker 1: if you're gonna shift, if you're going to move the goalpost,
Speaker 1: that's you like conceding ground to the other side because
Speaker 1: you've had to shrink your position, right, you had to
Speaker 1: shrink your position even tighter. And that and then that
Speaker 1: leads into a more of a God of the Gap
Speaker 1: situation where it's just here's a gap in our knowledge
Speaker 1: or you know, I'm just being personally incredula and incredulous
Speaker 1: about it, and so that that is yet another way
Speaker 1: that they're just not correct just because they're throwing, you know,
Speaker 1: darts out of board hoping one hits the bull's eye.
Speaker 4: That makes sense.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it becomes a challenge of actually just identifying when
Speaker 7: when claims are being made and how to actually catch
Speaker 7: them out. But then, like back to the to the
Speaker 7: consciousness idea, So just to make sure that I have
Speaker 7: it correct in my head, is it what science says today?
Speaker 7: Like that basically an unconscious process eventually led to consciousness,
Speaker 7: because is that what science asserts?
Speaker 2: I think what science asserts is that we don't know,
Speaker 2: and it suggests, it says we have some ideas of
Speaker 2: you know, I think even nailing down what consciousness is
Speaker 2: is a slippery problem and might not be thoroughly explained
Speaker 2: or defined by science at this point or by scientists,
Speaker 2: we should say. And so that's tough to say. I
Speaker 2: do have a kind of a side question I want
Speaker 2: to ask you, but I don't want to derail the conversation.
Speaker 2: And so is there Do you have any other things
Speaker 2: you wanted to say related to what we were talking
Speaker 2: about so far?
Speaker 4: No, please go ahead, Okay, Well.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to point something out we've been talking
Speaker 2: about recognizing fallacies when you're talking to somebody when they're
Speaker 2: presenting fallacies to you, and this type of argument that
Speaker 2: you're describing, the you know, how could this have possibly happened?
Speaker 2: What else could it be?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 2: The what else could it be? The word else in
Speaker 2: there really sticks with me. And what they're doing is
Speaker 2: they're sneaking in their God onto the list. Really you're
Speaker 2: starting out with not what else could it be? But
Speaker 2: what could it be? How did God get on the list?
Speaker 2: They just kind of snuck it on there. They just said, well,
Speaker 2: it could be God. We can't think of anything else
Speaker 2: that it could be, so then it must be God.
Speaker 2: Well how did God get on the list? If God
Speaker 2: doesn't exist, it couldn't have been God. And if we
Speaker 2: don't know already that gods exist, then we can't really
Speaker 2: tie them to We can't say, oh, this is what
Speaker 2: gods are like, Gods are like this, and so they
Speaker 2: do X, Y and z. So whenever we see X,
Speaker 2: y and Z, we can tie it to this God.
Speaker 2: But if you're trying to make an argument that gods
Speaker 2: do exist, you can't go making definitive statements about what
Speaker 2: those gods do and what they're like and what they're
Speaker 2: capable of, And so I would have just stopped him
Speaker 2: right there and say, wait a minute, how did God
Speaker 2: get on the list? Why are you asking what else
Speaker 2: can it be? When you should be asking what can
Speaker 2: it be? And if we don't know, then we don't know.
Speaker 7: That makes sense. It's it's probably also because they're so
Speaker 7: ingrained in the theology and the ideas of religion itself
Speaker 7: that they don't even see any other path to this.
Speaker 7: So they're coming on with the presumption of well, it
Speaker 7: must be God, and then you have to come up
Speaker 7: with a way to actually explain it to them that
Speaker 7: to take them outside of that.
Speaker 2: So you've just identified another assumption that they were making.
Speaker 2: And that's exactly how you do. You just ask questions
Speaker 2: and the assumptions will bubble to the top.
Speaker 7: That makes sense, Yeah, and you really need to have
Speaker 7: someone listening on the other end sometimes with these discussions.
Speaker 7: Is they're just trying to get you. They're just trying well,
Speaker 7: that's sure, and they're probably someone who knows who knows
Speaker 7: a few standard arguments and they just keep throwing them
Speaker 7: at you and then you're like, okay, well, so sometimes
Speaker 7: you have to have someone else on the other side
Speaker 7: that's actually willing to listen, I guess yeah.
Speaker 2: And if somebody's throwing, you know, prepackaged arguments at you,
Speaker 2: that's definitely a signal that they have no idea what
Speaker 2: they're talking about, and so any questions at all will
Speaker 2: cause their whole argument to just unravel. And so that's
Speaker 2: you know, that's when the questions are the most effective.
Speaker 2: And and if you can shine a light on the
Speaker 2: on the breakdown of communication, don't. I don't know if
Speaker 2: you saw our discussion with our first caller, but it
Speaker 2: was just a breakdown in communication, and and they just
Speaker 2: weren't able to coherently express their ideas in the first place.
Speaker 2: And you know, whether or that that was because they
Speaker 2: didn't have a coherent idea or whether they were just
Speaker 2: having trouble saying it, that's, you know, that remains to
Speaker 2: be seen. But that's kind of the same thing. What's
Speaker 2: happening here is that they don't really understand what the
Speaker 2: argument that they're making. Because if they understood the argument,
Speaker 2: or if they found the argument compelling, they should be
Speaker 2: able to at least explain it. They should be able
Speaker 2: to explain how it was if somebody can't explain an
Speaker 2: argument to me, that's a big red flag that they
Speaker 2: really don't find it compelling. You can't find it compelling
Speaker 2: if you don't understand it. And if they can't explain it,
Speaker 2: then they don't really understand it. You know that old
Speaker 2: saying that you know, if you can't explain it to
Speaker 2: a five year old, you don't really have a thorough
Speaker 2: understanding of it. Yeah, I think that's a little bit
Speaker 2: of an exaggeration, but it's the same kind of idea.
Speaker 7: Yeah, no, that makes sense. But in your experience, is there, like,
Speaker 7: in situations like this, is there an example that someone
Speaker 7: could mention to kind of change their frame of mind
Speaker 7: to actually think about it, Because one example I was
Speaker 7: trying to say is, for example, well, you can have
Speaker 7: to uh crazy parents that would seem to have no
Speaker 7: consciousness or no stable like that's just two crazy parents
Speaker 7: and they give birth to a uh uh a regular
Speaker 7: person whose or two blind people can give birth to.
Speaker 1: My child that sees.
Speaker 7: But again, these are all examples limited within our frame
Speaker 7: of mind, within our experience, within our like things that
Speaker 7: we've experienced in our lives. And it's so hard because
Speaker 7: evolution is something that you don't experience, and we've not
Speaker 7: seen how life started and we were not there, So
Speaker 7: it's one of those things. So I don't know if
Speaker 7: there's any other examples that that you guys would would
Speaker 7: be familiar with to kind of at.
Speaker 1: Least I'm sorry, maybe maybe I was distracted. What what
Speaker 1: are there supposed to be examples.
Speaker 7: Of examples of how an unconscious process could lead to consciousness?
Speaker 7: Because the only example that we have is is life itself,
Speaker 7: what we have right now where evolution and life began
Speaker 7: and led to a conscious conscious being. But are there
Speaker 7: any other examples from our day to day that could
Speaker 7: maybe illustrate the point or make it closer?
Speaker 2: I think that would be really hard, but mostly because
Speaker 2: we don't really have a solid definition of what consciousness is.
Speaker 2: Would they have a similar difficulty understanding how like a
Speaker 2: giraffe's long neck would evolve? I mean, that's a little
Speaker 2: bit more concrete, might be a little bit easier to explain,
Speaker 2: is that? I mean, do you think that would shed
Speaker 2: any light? If you're asking us, do we have any
Speaker 2: examples of here is a you know, a scientifically verified
Speaker 2: line of of you know of of offspring, and and
Speaker 2: here's how we develop consciousness. I think that's I think
Speaker 2: that that's a tall order to come up with something like.
Speaker 7: That, But it's really hard because like from their frame
Speaker 7: of mind, consciousness arises because God and still sold into us.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, and obviously we don't. We don't necessarily
Speaker 2: align with that, and I'd be curious to have them
Speaker 2: explain how could that happen? How does God? How does
Speaker 2: God make us conscious?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Well, and and their belief it's actually.
Speaker 2: It's because if they answer mysterious ways, then boy, that
Speaker 2: you just got to free answer to any question they
Speaker 2: ever asked you.
Speaker 7: And then when you die, that's what leaves you or
Speaker 7: your body, it's your soul. That's that's how they would
Speaker 7: explain it.
Speaker 2: Well, they got some splaining to do then, if that's
Speaker 2: what they're going it asserts. That's again that's another right there,
Speaker 2: that's another unfounded assertion, of.
Speaker 7: Course, but it's it's all mingled up between religion and
Speaker 7: and all like presupposed ideas, and it becomes really hard
Speaker 7: to take them out of that frame of mind because
Speaker 7: it just I don't find it's easy for them to
Speaker 7: click and I actually realize it.
Speaker 2: But well, you know, the big The big learn here
Speaker 2: is the big the big lesson here is that if
Speaker 2: you make ship up, you're gonna come to weird conclusions.
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, of course, no I think that makes sense. Well,
Speaker 7: I really appreciate you as the time. Oh sure, yeah,
Speaker 7: it's probably just something that we'd have to you'd have
Speaker 7: to always be on your toes, just trying to see
Speaker 7: whenever these claims come up, and there's so many of them,
Speaker 7: and some of them are built on top of each other,
Speaker 7: and it's just an endless web of the assertions because
Speaker 7: oh God created this and the next and that, and
Speaker 7: it becomes really hard to just stop at one point
Speaker 7: and say, well, wait, out of all of these build on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but just keep asking how do you know? Keep
Speaker 2: asking how do you know? If they if they make
Speaker 2: an assertion and you don't understand how they got that,
Speaker 2: ask them why? Ask them why do you think that?
Speaker 2: Even if you have an idea of why they might
Speaker 2: believe it, it's still helpful to ask that question, why
Speaker 2: do you believe that? Because then you can get an idea.
Speaker 2: It gives you insight into their thinking process and so on.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know it's you said, you know you
Speaker 2: got to be on your toes. But really you just
Speaker 2: have to use your own understanding as your guide. If
Speaker 2: they say something and you don't know what it means,
Speaker 2: ask them. And and you know, I think and I'm
Speaker 2: not saying that I think theists are all the same,
Speaker 2: and I'm not saying that they are intentionally being misleading
Speaker 2: or anything. I think, you know, theists are human too,
Speaker 2: and we can all be misled, but I think that
Speaker 2: they they our human minds have have kind of a
Speaker 2: desire for order, a desire to know things, a desire
Speaker 2: to understand things. That's because our our ancestors that did
Speaker 2: not have that curiosity were less likely to survive. But
Speaker 2: but just that, you know, allow that to kind of
Speaker 2: push you along, because they probably had the same issue
Speaker 2: and felt an awkwardness or an uncomfortable feeling because they
Speaker 2: didn't know something right, And so what could be happening here,
Speaker 2: certainly not saying this is always what happens, but what
Speaker 2: could be happening is that they are afraid or uncomfortable
Speaker 2: or irritated or whatever with not knowing something, so they
Speaker 2: just pick whatever is handy. And so you know, boy,
Speaker 2: they were raised in the Christian Church. Oh perfect, right there,
Speaker 2: there's my explanation God. Well what does that mean? Oh,
Speaker 2: I don't know. God's mysterious. Oh okay, it doesn't really
Speaker 2: give you. It's not very satisfying answer if you if
Speaker 2: you look under the hood, it doesn't really there's not
Speaker 2: much there.
Speaker 7: No, not much there. But the thing is, religion provides
Speaker 7: such a nicely prepackaged set of answers. And you have
Speaker 7: to imagine these were created over thousands of years of
Speaker 7: religious I don't know, I don't want to call it
Speaker 7: religious science, but yeah, I think you get.
Speaker 3: What I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, religious is good at producing attractive nothing.
Speaker 7: Yes, and like fifteen hundred years later, two thousand years later,
Speaker 7: and then you have this endless book of answers like
Speaker 7: and for humans it's so easy to actually just go
Speaker 7: to that because that's the less challenging thing, that's the
Speaker 7: more familiar thing. That's what they were brought up to
Speaker 7: hear and m It's it's tricky, but just like you said,
Speaker 7: for us humans, it's it's it's the easy answer out.
Speaker 7: It's like, oh yeah, God, yeah, he told.
Speaker 2: Me to Gee, I've been talking for a little while here,
Speaker 2: you have any more to add to AJ's questions?
Speaker 4: Here?
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I think that you handled them
Speaker 1: pretty well. You know, the hard problem of consciousness and
Speaker 1: interacting with theists and religious people in general on that
Speaker 1: is is always going to be a bit aggravating because
Speaker 1: and I think that it's aggravating because of their presumptions,
Speaker 1: like they're but and I think the presumptions are due
Speaker 1: to their their incredulity when it comes to the complex
Speaker 1: you know, ne neurological or neuroscience that goes into understanding
Speaker 1: like your brain. And I don't I'm not claiming to
Speaker 1: be like an expert in any of that, but I
Speaker 1: do understand that, like, and it like one particular instance
Speaker 1: you might want to use whenever talking about this is
Speaker 1: the curious case of Phineas Gauge. Phineas Gauge had a
Speaker 1: pipe that was like driven through his I think it
Speaker 1: was like up under his chin and through his head.
Speaker 1: And what it did was is it changed the structure
Speaker 1: of his brain. It damaged his brain in a way
Speaker 1: that it changed his personality and it changed which essentially
Speaker 1: means changing his consciousness, right, changed everything about him. And
Speaker 1: so like, that's one case that you can point to
Speaker 1: that's like, see, that's how we know that the consciousness
Speaker 1: is tied to this physical non non conscious thing or
Speaker 1: unconscious thing or whatever like it just something that isn't
Speaker 1: conscious is changing the consciousness actively. You can see that
Speaker 1: in real time. So I mean, I know that you
Speaker 1: were looking for like real world examples, and I think
Speaker 1: that you know you would probably need to look at
Speaker 1: examples similar to that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes sense. I could imagine what kind of
Speaker 7: argument they could say to that, But I don't know
Speaker 7: if we have the time to go into something.
Speaker 4: More or if you guys have other calls.
Speaker 7: But I can go through and try to steal man
Speaker 7: that idea, because they would say, essentially, well, Sinius Gage,
Speaker 7: is what happened was with something along the lines of
Speaker 7: his consciousness that never changed. What changed was basically brain
Speaker 7: damage made him crazy kind of thing. Because consciousness means
Speaker 7: that they're still alive, they have a soul and then
Speaker 7: that keeps their heart beating and they were still to
Speaker 7: survive and live afterwards. But what happened case, it's just
Speaker 7: a case.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but so right right, But but Phineas Gage
Speaker 1: wasn't like crazy as far as I understand it, like
Speaker 1: is and and crazy, I'm using crazy like that is
Speaker 1: a bit non specific, you know, like yeah, so I
Speaker 1: wouldn't describe it as crazy. But also I would say
Speaker 1: that if somebody starts suffering from some kind of mental illness,
Speaker 1: that's and it changes their behavior, changes their personality and
Speaker 1: everything like that, Like that is changing your consciousness. Like
Speaker 1: that structural or chemical change in your brain is actively
Speaker 1: changing your consciousness. And so that's the non conscious or
Speaker 1: unconscious physical things that are having a real effect on
Speaker 1: your brain state right on this emergent consciousness. And that's
Speaker 1: because consciousness derives from those complex interactions in your in
Speaker 1: your physical brain, in your phys body. Now there are
Speaker 1: you were talking about how you know your brain is
Speaker 1: needed to like keep your heart beating and to breathe
Speaker 1: and all this other stuff. And I mean that's true.
Speaker 1: But with the Phineas gauge example, the part of the
Speaker 1: brain that was changed by the pipe was not that
Speaker 1: particular part of the brain that controls like all those
Speaker 1: baser things, right. I believe that it only affected his
Speaker 1: like prefrontal cortex, like right here in the front where
Speaker 1: your where your personality actually sort of lives. If you will, well,
Speaker 1: you know that part of your brain is what controls
Speaker 1: that aspect of your of your consciousness. So like I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say like that. If you know anything about the brain,
Speaker 1: there's there's the conscious part of your brain, and then
Speaker 1: there's a subconscious part that you're not exactly actively aware,
Speaker 1: and that includes like like the the I forget, I
Speaker 1: forget what what system that is. But it's a system
Speaker 1: of your brain that controls all the things that you
Speaker 1: don't even think about. Right, And so when we talk
Speaker 1: about consciousness, we're typically just talking about personality, and so
Speaker 1: those are different parts of the brain.
Speaker 7: Mm hmmm, Yeah, I see what you mean, because I
Speaker 7: guess we're for for theists of that part of the world.
Speaker 7: They would see that the soul is what basically keeps you.
Speaker 4: Alive, and.
Speaker 7: Whether you have brain damage or you have some mental
Speaker 7: issues or things like that, that does not really change
Speaker 7: your consciousness per se about it. What it changes is
Speaker 7: like your your behavior. So they would separate it in
Speaker 7: a way that makes it a little bit more.
Speaker 1: I guess well, because they would say, well, what what
Speaker 1: I would press press them on? There is a couple
Speaker 1: of things I would press them on. What is a soul?
Speaker 1: Like how are you defining soul? Because the way that
Speaker 1: you describe soul there just makes it seem like it's
Speaker 1: part of a that system, that that that one system
Speaker 1: of your brain that controls like your heartbeating and everything
Speaker 1: like that. But that can't be the soul because typically
Speaker 1: souls are tied to your personality. So like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: I would pressure them on on defining what a soul
Speaker 1: is and being able to actually suss that out, like
Speaker 1: like where does the soul actually live and all that
Speaker 1: other kind of stuff. But I would say that your
Speaker 1: behavior and all that that is your consciousness, like that
Speaker 1: that that is a you know what your consciousness is.
Speaker 1: It's your behavior, it's your personality, it's it's all of that.
Speaker 1: That's what your consciousness is. So like to say that
Speaker 1: you know your behavior isn't your consciousness or something, I
Speaker 1: feel like that's just not a true statement.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes sense. And it's even like I'm familiar
Speaker 7: with the these clonic texts and even even there, uh,
Speaker 7: there's a story of like where where someone is asked, so,
Speaker 7: what what is what is the soul? And then the
Speaker 7: answer in the book is, well, the soul is something
Speaker 7: that only God knows. And at that point it's like Okay, well,
Speaker 7: thank you, that doesn't help. But but then they start
Speaker 7: creating all of these layers of understanding on top of
Speaker 7: that that just just never actually materializes. But even if
Speaker 7: you press them on it, they'd say, well, even in
Speaker 7: our religion, we don't know what consciousness really is. It's
Speaker 7: something that mysteriously God just brings into existence. It's a
Speaker 7: mysterious process.
Speaker 1: My question there then would be, if you, if you
Speaker 1: can't know anything about the soul, then why are you
Speaker 1: claiming to know that the soul controls certain aspects of
Speaker 1: your body?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 1: Like you're I really wish I knew what system that
Speaker 1: was called. It's really bugging me right now. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have to look it up here in a second. But like,
Speaker 1: because it feels like you're it's a bit contradictory there.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, we don't know what a soul is,
Speaker 1: only God knows, but also we know that the soul
Speaker 1: is controls these things. Like that's a bit contradictory.
Speaker 7: Right, yeah, because in a way, the way they would
Speaker 7: describe it as basically, that's what keeps you alive, and
Speaker 7: when you die, you essentially the soul leaves your body,
Speaker 7: and that's how everything stops, your your, your, your, your
Speaker 7: consciousness stops.
Speaker 2: Sounds like they're trying to sneak the soul in though
Speaker 2: it's the same thing that happened before. You know, how
Speaker 2: did God get on the list? How did the soul
Speaker 2: get on the list?
Speaker 7: First?
Speaker 2: Show me a soul exists. First show me that there
Speaker 2: is such things as a soul. Then we can examine
Speaker 2: what do souls do? But if we don't even have
Speaker 2: any evidence that souls exist, talking about what a soul
Speaker 2: could do, for example, the effects on Phineas Gage, if
Speaker 2: that was affected because of some interaction with this soul.
Speaker 2: Like I I've heard the you know, the arguments that
Speaker 2: you were presenting. Maybe the brain is kind of the
Speaker 2: tool that the soul uses to manipulate the body, and
Speaker 2: that kind of argument. But tell me, how do you
Speaker 2: know a soul exists?
Speaker 7: Right?
Speaker 2: There's they're sneaking that in as well. They're trying to
Speaker 2: give another what else could it be? Argument when they
Speaker 2: were when you really should be asking what could it be? Right,
Speaker 2: So soul doesn't get a free pass onto the list,
Speaker 2: at least not in my book.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes sense because yeah, at the end of
Speaker 7: the day, all of these are and and and it
Speaker 7: boils down to the who makes the argument has to
Speaker 7: actually present the evidence. Yeah, right, and I'm.
Speaker 2: Not Yeah, that's pretty common. Pretty common thing we see
Speaker 2: around here too, is the shifting of the burden of proof.
Speaker 2: If somebody is going to make a statement that they
Speaker 2: that they know something, then they should be able to
Speaker 2: back it up. If they don't want to back it up,
Speaker 2: then they're either you know, being hasty and maybe even
Speaker 2: dangerous in their own policies, or maybe they're diverting, maybe
Speaker 2: they're deflecting, and so you know, it's it's so just
Speaker 2: you know, keep pressing in that direction. If they're they
Speaker 2: can't start talking about thing the properties of things without
Speaker 2: even knowing that those things exist, Yeah, and and and
Speaker 2: and by doing that, by sneaking that in, you know,
Speaker 2: if they sneak it in at the beginning of the conversation,
Speaker 2: then later on when you get to the point, well
Speaker 2: what else could it be? Right, then, Oh, that's that's
Speaker 2: the only thing on our list. And I think that's
Speaker 2: an issue. And I think that's you know, that's logically fallacious.
Speaker 7: M hm, yep, that makes sense, Thank you so much.
Speaker 7: I don't know if you ended up finding what that
Speaker 7: other system was called.
Speaker 1: But oh yeah, Kat, our backup host Kelly got it
Speaker 1: to me. It's the autonomic nervous system. Yeah, is what
Speaker 1: that is. Yeah, autonomic it's what it's what automatically controls
Speaker 1: like all of your bodily organs and systems and everything
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: I think that's mostly kind of in the brain stem
Speaker 2: or the cerebellum if I remember back way back to
Speaker 2: my psychology one of one days.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm not going to test you guys on that.
Speaker 6: I'll leave you to it.
Speaker 7: But no, thank you so much. Again, this is a
Speaker 7: pleasant conversation and thanks for being there. Honestly, on a whim,
Speaker 7: I was having this conversation and I was like, wait,
Speaker 7: let me check if the atheist experience our lives and
Speaker 7: you guys, thanks again.
Speaker 1: No, yeah, thank you AJ for calling in. We really
Speaker 1: appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Appreciate it.
Speaker 7: All right, we'll have yourself really nice day.
Speaker 2: Thank you. All right, thanks Aga, you did the same.
Speaker 1: All right. Well, we don't have anybody in the queue,
Speaker 1: but if you're in the chats any of the chants,
Speaker 1: feel free to request up right now, the first one
Speaker 1: to call in will get to talk to us. Uh,
Speaker 1: and uh so, the phone number is five one two
Speaker 1: nine nine nine two four to two. You can call
Speaker 1: in there or you can request up over there on
Speaker 1: the tickety talk right and if you're in the chat
Speaker 1: on the tickety Talk, it would really help us out
Speaker 1: if you would continue liking the stream over there and
Speaker 1: doing the same for the vertical over there on the YouTube.
Speaker 1: I think that we could probably bring up our backup host,
Speaker 1: Kelly right now and see what Kelly thinks about these
Speaker 1: two conversations that we had.
Speaker 2: If I didn't like, Hey, how you guys doing pretty good?
Speaker 1: So Kelly, what'd you think about our conversations today?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 9: Well, Steph was in incoherent I mean it was I
Speaker 9: had no idea what he was talking about most of
Speaker 9: the time. And you know he mentioned he had taken
Speaker 9: several decades to come to these conclusions. I think maybe
Speaker 9: you need to take another decade to think about how
Speaker 9: you want to communicate your idea because you're not doing
Speaker 9: that well of a well of a job doing it
Speaker 9: right now. I'm not saying your ideas are wrong or bad,
Speaker 9: You're just not communicating them well. And then AJ, I
Speaker 9: think you guys covered it with AJ I the the
Speaker 9: problem was that he's not that as Scott mentioned, that
Speaker 9: the person he's talking to is sneaking in the stuff soul.
Speaker 9: He's sneaking in god right, and AJ needs to ask
Speaker 9: that guy, ask the person he's talking to for the
Speaker 9: proof of these things that he's sneaking in. And like
Speaker 9: I said, you guys already covered that, and I just
Speaker 9: don't really have much to it because that was the
Speaker 9: crux of the problem right there. So so yeah, that's
Speaker 9: that's about it.
Speaker 2: For me, kind of going off of what you were
Speaker 2: just saying, Kelly, I think that overcoming assumptions is really
Speaker 2: a difficult thing, and this is something I run in
Speaker 2: even in my daytime life as a math teacher. You know,
Speaker 2: people come into these preconceived notions and they've always worked
Speaker 2: that particular way. Human for example, human beings feel like
Speaker 2: they have a pretty good understanding about ratio and proportion
Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, but we really don't. And
Speaker 2: you know, we have a very limited, you know, ability
Speaker 2: to make judgments along that those lines, but we really can't.
Speaker 2: And it's hard to convince somebody that they're that their
Speaker 2: intuitions along those lines are wrong. Just in the same
Speaker 2: thing here, if somebody's gone through their whole life assuming
Speaker 2: that there's God, they don't realize that that's what they're assuming.
Speaker 2: And so you know, sometimes just pointing it out can
Speaker 2: make a difference. Sometimes not, but you know, you take
Speaker 2: a shot, right.
Speaker 9: Yeah, right right, you know, and I really yeah, I
Speaker 9: think that pointing out the fact that or relying their
Speaker 9: whole argument is relying on something that they can't prove
Speaker 9: to begin with, And of course they're going to try
Speaker 9: to turn that back on you, Well, you can't prove evolution.
Speaker 9: Well maybe I cannot one hundred percent prove it, but
Speaker 9: I've got ninety percent scurity with the evidence that we
Speaker 9: do have, and you just don't have that with God,
Speaker 9: you know.
Speaker 1: So well yeah, and I would say typically whenever a
Speaker 1: theist or religious person tries to put me on the
Speaker 1: defensive about evolution or any of the points that we make,
Speaker 1: I usually try to just immediately turn it back around
Speaker 1: on them, because the thing that they're asking me to
Speaker 1: seriously consider is like, well, here's this scientific theory. Like
Speaker 1: let's say we can't prove the scientific theory, like there's
Speaker 1: just no proof of it at all, but it makes
Speaker 1: sense with how we understand reality versus a literal wizard?
Speaker 1: Did it?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: Those are the two options there? Like this is crazy? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we got Luke Riley that sent in a super chat
Speaker 1: says another great show. Thanks to all involved. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much there.
Speaker 2: Thanks.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate the super chats. We love getting super
Speaker 1: chats here, definitely. Yeah, we do have one caller that's
Speaker 1: screening in, so we're just gonna bide some time while
Speaker 1: they get done screening and uh oh they just got
Speaker 1: up here. It's going to be a friendly call, so
Speaker 1: it'll be a nice call to go out on a
Speaker 1: nice little palate cleanser for everybody the rest of everybody's day.
Speaker 1: So we're going to talk to Ben from Connecticut.
Speaker 6: Ben.
Speaker 1: Hey there, Ben, Hi, Ben.
Speaker 6: I saw you had no callers, and I tell you
Speaker 6: I would give you my deconstruction story. It's kind of amusing.
Speaker 2: I like amusing. Okay, well here, yeah, amuse us, all right,
Speaker 2: I go for it.
Speaker 6: All right. When I was a kid, excuse me, my
Speaker 6: father had to work all the time, so he worked
Speaker 6: with our past his pastor's son, and he would come
Speaker 6: over every Sunday. The pastor would pick me up take
Speaker 6: me to church. And I did that from I don't know,
Speaker 6: since I guess from eight to twelve. And then I
Speaker 6: hit that twelve range, and you know, I really didn't
Speaker 6: want to go. Man. I had enough.
Speaker 4: You know what.
Speaker 6: It was summertime. I want to go out with my friends,
Speaker 6: you know, play ball, all that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 6: when he showed up to pick me up on that Sunday,
Speaker 6: I told him, yeah, I'd like to go, but I
Speaker 6: don't have any clothes, and he goes okay, And unbeknownst
Speaker 6: to me, they had a fundraiser for us because we
Speaker 6: had no clothes. I had no clothes, and the next Monday,
Speaker 6: the next day, they showed up with a pickup truck
Speaker 6: full of baskets of clothes, food, toys, you name it.
Speaker 6: And my mother would ballistic. She could not believe that
Speaker 6: because she was trying to explain to them, now he
Speaker 6: made that up, he didn't want to go. And I
Speaker 6: guess they didn't believe her because they kept showing up
Speaker 6: every week for like a month bringing us stuff. I
Speaker 6: guess because they thought we were in poverty, they couldn't
Speaker 6: take care of the kids, that sort of thing. And
Speaker 6: of course I got my ass beat by my own man.
Speaker 6: But the funny part was, you know, my parents were
Speaker 6: cool about it. After they beat me. Of course, they said, lookten,
Speaker 6: you didn't want.
Speaker 2: To aig caveat on that cool?
Speaker 6: Exactly. If you don't want to go to church, that's fine.
Speaker 6: Just don't lie about the family. Okay, I said, deal,
Speaker 6: I didn't have to go anymore. And the other funny
Speaker 6: part was, even though they were so angry, I had
Speaker 6: enough clothes to last me all through high school. They
Speaker 6: brought so much stuff and that's how I ended up
Speaker 6: never going to another church, you know, except for weddings, funerals,
Speaker 6: that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: How did that affect your relationship with your parents after that?
Speaker 6: Oh? God, no, No, they were cool. They were just
Speaker 6: so upset that I embarrassed the crap out of them.
Speaker 2: You know, wait, you embarrassed them by not believing in God,
Speaker 2: or by letting these people believe that you were in need?
Speaker 6: That is the yeah, the latter. Okay, Yeah, they weren't
Speaker 6: particularly religious themselves. I just kind of got involved with
Speaker 6: it when I was young, and you know, it was
Speaker 6: kind of cool, you know, even though I had to
Speaker 6: go to Sunday School and all that stuff. When I
Speaker 6: learned about the Bible, YadA, YadA YadA, to give my
Speaker 6: testimony and all that stuff. But you know, when you're
Speaker 6: a kid, you don't really think that much about it.
Speaker 6: You just go because it was something to do, you know,
Speaker 6: and plus i'd get lunch. It was kind of a
Speaker 6: neat thing.
Speaker 2: But you know what part of what part of that
Speaker 2: caused your deconstruction then? Was it? Was it?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 6: I just didn't want to go to church anymore.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So it goes deeper deeper than was originally.
Speaker 2: So you would you ever consider yourself to be a
Speaker 2: theist at any point?
Speaker 6: Just when I was a child, okay, And I really
Speaker 6: didn't understand it, so it doesn't really count. I guess.
Speaker 2: I'm sure a lot of people would definitely count that.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, maybe not us here, but I know many
Speaker 2: churches go they their their definition of who's part of
Speaker 2: our flock and who's not can be you know, it
Speaker 2: can be very wide and broad.
Speaker 6: That's true. I must say, though, Scott, you have a
Speaker 6: very good sense of humor. I've been listening to you today.
Speaker 6: You were doing so well against someone in who's.
Speaker 2: Well give me time. I can break you. I can
Speaker 2: break you, true.
Speaker 6: And I've been following Godless for a long time. But
Speaker 6: I've seen you around. I haven't really went on your
Speaker 6: channel if you have one, what would that be called?
Speaker 4: Who?
Speaker 6: For me?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Mostly I'm just I'm one of the hosts on Talk
Speaker 2: Heathen and occasionally on Ethics Experience, and when when they'll
Speaker 2: let me, I try to go on truth want it
Speaker 2: every once in a while.
Speaker 6: Oh I see, So you just float around. You don't
Speaker 6: have a particular channel to tune in.
Speaker 2: No, no, I don't. I don't. I'm not nearly as
Speaker 2: prolific as as ge here.
Speaker 6: Oh god, yeah, I'm in deconstruction and Matt, there's nobody
Speaker 6: else out there that is so freaking dedicated and they're
Speaker 6: so good at it. Yeah, that's one of them, you know,
Speaker 6: I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever been grouped amongst those other
Speaker 1: two like that before. So I I appreciate that.
Speaker 6: Problem. Actually I was following you before I followed them.
Speaker 1: Okay, you know I appreciate that. I mean, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm glad that I've been able to have, you know,
Speaker 1: a positive effect on your Deconstruction experience because I mean
Speaker 1: I say that because like I feel I find that
Speaker 1: even now myself I'm deconstructing like still, it's an ongoing
Speaker 1: process for me at least.
Speaker 6: M really surprised.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean after, well after I deconstructed from religion
Speaker 1: and deconstructed from Christianity growing up in the South, I
Speaker 1: had a lot of like internalized things outside of religion
Speaker 1: that I really had to deconstruct for myself, like some
Speaker 1: internalized misogyny type stuff, some internalized i'll say, at racism
Speaker 1: that was kind of inherent because of where I grew
Speaker 1: up at. I mean, I grew up in in North Alabama,
Speaker 1: and you know, with very racist sort of family members,
Speaker 1: and they ingrained certain ideas in me that I really
Speaker 1: had to confront later on in life. And I found
Speaker 1: myself confronting that as I got exposed to you know,
Speaker 1: other people through uh school, through like you know, both
Speaker 1: public school education as well as uh, you know college,
Speaker 1: and so like I've had there's been a number of
Speaker 1: like internalized like social aspects that I've had to deconstruct from.
Speaker 1: And I mean I'm still I take every every niche
Speaker 1: that exists out there. I try to I try to
Speaker 1: really carefully examine my preconceptions about different things, and I
Speaker 1: try to be better about it, you know, and so
Speaker 1: like I find myself just slowly deconstructing from a lot
Speaker 1: of different points of views.
Speaker 6: No, I understand. I actually kind of had like a
Speaker 6: bit of a similar experience, not quite as bad. My
Speaker 6: parents are from Tennessee, you know. After they got married,
Speaker 6: they moved up to Cincinnati, Ohio, and that's really it's
Speaker 6: kind of Ritteneck too, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 6: It's just across the border from Kentucky. And they, yeah,
Speaker 6: they were they're pretty racist growing up, and you know,
Speaker 6: they I kind of picked that up quite a bit,
Speaker 6: not so much when I was in high school because
Speaker 6: Cincinnati there's a large group of African American population there,
Speaker 6: so you know, I was thrown into the mix with them,
Speaker 6: and you know, it kind of turned me around on that.
Speaker 6: And then when I went into the military, I just
Speaker 6: served with a lot of different people and I just
Speaker 6: I threw that yoke off after that. It never even
Speaker 6: occurred to me. But the weird thing was, excuse me,
Speaker 6: when I got back from the military. It took me
Speaker 6: a few years hanging out with my parents to kind
Speaker 6: of point out every time they would mentioned something like that,
Speaker 6: you know, something about the brothers or even women in general.
Speaker 6: I would say, Mom, Dad, that's why you know you
Speaker 6: want to feel that way, that's your thing, but don't
Speaker 6: talk like that in front of me, okay, And after
Speaker 6: a while they didn't, and I think they kind of
Speaker 6: turned around on it a little bit, you know, before
Speaker 6: they passed away.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that you know, gently pushing
Speaker 1: back especially on like family members that you're that close
Speaker 1: with and everything. I think gently pushing back like that
Speaker 1: and getting them like it because I know for me,
Speaker 1: like it's like I didn't realize the things that I
Speaker 1: was saying or the things that I was thinking was
Speaker 1: harmful you know in a way. And it wasn't until
Speaker 1: somebody was like, hey, you know that's kind of bad,
Speaker 1: Like that's a bad thing to like think and say.
Speaker 1: And so it was like for me, it was like surprising,
Speaker 1: like oh that I definitely wasn't trying to be that way,
Speaker 1: like let me re examine that. And so, like I
Speaker 1: it was it was people that you know, would mention
Speaker 1: it to me and be like, hey, that's actually bad,
Speaker 1: you know for me. So that's that's why I in
Speaker 1: my conversations in my effort here here on AXP as
Speaker 1: well as other venues, you know, like my TikTok and everything.
Speaker 1: I typically try to challenge people on those preconceptions, on
Speaker 1: those notions that they have, and that's why I typically
Speaker 1: run with this one argument that theists Christians specifically don't
Speaker 1: like at all, and they pushed back so hard on it.
Speaker 1: And it's the fact that Mary was great. And the
Speaker 1: reason why I like to mention that, bring it up
Speaker 1: and service it to them is that it touches on
Speaker 1: so many different aspects of like women's experience, just in
Speaker 1: our society in general, the whole concept of consent. It
Speaker 1: seems to be foreign to a lot of people. They
Speaker 1: don't understand did especially when you throw a theological context
Speaker 1: on top of it. It's it's like their mind just
Speaker 1: goes blank and they forget about it. And I think
Speaker 1: that surfacing those issues and bringing those issues to light
Speaker 1: it can hopefully, you know, at least cause some people
Speaker 1: out there to rethink those those positions and that they have,
Speaker 1: because I was in that position at one point in time,
Speaker 1: and if somebody didn't say something to me about it,
Speaker 1: then I would still be doing in that internalized misogyny
Speaker 1: and internalized racism and all this stuff. So I convenge
Speaker 1: you for you know, standing up, using your voice and
Speaker 1: doing it in a way that positively affected another person.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, you know it's weird too, because well a
Speaker 6: little bit weird. My sisters they were never racist, no
Speaker 6: one time. And I kind of carried that into uh
Speaker 6: all the way to junior high school because I was
Speaker 6: so ingreanted with it. Now I was the oldest all
Speaker 6: that kind of stuff. And but yeah, I think I
Speaker 6: did a good job with my parents, and you know,
Speaker 6: they were pretty cool. They were great parents, don't get
Speaker 6: me wrong. They treated me like a king when they
Speaker 6: weren't beating me as a child, of course.
Speaker 3: But there's a.
Speaker 2: Little disconnect happening there.
Speaker 9: I think it's kind of the thing to do back then,
Speaker 9: as they had parents of beacha and.
Speaker 2: I suppose the norm right, right, Yeah, where's the harmon religion? Right?
Speaker 2: You spare the rod, spoil the child, right, that's it. No,
Speaker 2: I don't think so I'll pass on that, thank you
Speaker 2: very much.
Speaker 6: It's a Southern thing, though it definitely is prevalent there.
Speaker 6: You know, spare the rod, you know, all that jazz.
Speaker 2: They're making a strong argument for me to stay in Minnesota.
Speaker 6: I'm hip.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 6: One of the weird things was when I got out
Speaker 6: of college in Ohio, when I, you know, I got
Speaker 6: a job up here in Connecticut. That was many, many
Speaker 6: years ago, of course, but when I was moving some
Speaker 6: of my friends they were like, oh, you're going to Connecticut.
Speaker 6: Oh okay, that's interesting, you know. And then when I
Speaker 6: would come back from a visit, they would say things like,
Speaker 6: so you live in Connecticut. Now, what's it like to
Speaker 6: be a communist? I'm like, what now, man, it doesn't
Speaker 6: work that way. There are plenty of rednecks here too,
Speaker 6: in Connecticut. They're all around. Just because you live up north,
Speaker 6: you know, on the East Coast, doesn't mean you're a
Speaker 6: damn communist. Okay, but yeah, there's a lot of strong
Speaker 6: feelings about the Northeast out in the Midwest. But anyway,
Speaker 6: I'm glad you guys were able to talk to me.
Speaker 6: It was great talking to you, and I hope you
Speaker 6: have a great rest of the show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much, Ben, Thanks for calling.
Speaker 9: Yeah, thanks for calling Ben, great story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for calling in. Ben. It was great talking
Speaker 1: to you, and I hope you'll call in sometime in
Speaker 1: the future if you got any questions.
Speaker 6: All right, Yeah, well, oh I say one last thing.
Speaker 6: Excuse me when you mentioned the bringing up what happened
Speaker 6: to Mary? And I've watched you guys do that in action.
Speaker 6: It's chef's kiss primo, just to hear in their voices
Speaker 6: like well, you know, well she wanted to Yeah, yeah, ticket,
Speaker 6: it was a privilege. Yeah, yeah, that's a ticket. They
Speaker 6: got no argument.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's particularly disgusting, I guess in like whenever they
Speaker 1: make the argument that oh she liked it or oh
Speaker 1: she wanted it or something like that, like it really
Speaker 1: kind of highlights that internalized misogyny that makes them like
Speaker 1: put that on the text, like they have to insert
Speaker 1: that information on there in order for it to make sense.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, well, well done, guys, you're doing a great job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. Ben. I hope you have
Speaker 1: an awesome day and we'll talk to you later, all right.
Speaker 6: I will, indeed, and you as well all.
Speaker 2: Have a good day. Ben.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 9: See Ben, you know, God bless you said something during
Speaker 9: that call that really struck me. You were talking about
Speaker 9: how you had some inherent racism and misogyny because of
Speaker 9: the area you were raised and the people you were
Speaker 9: raised by. And you you mentioned that you didn't know
Speaker 9: a better and that is so true of a lot
Speaker 9: of people who I meet who are still stuck in
Speaker 9: that in that mindset that they really honestly don't think
Speaker 9: that what they're saying is wrong. And I want to
Speaker 9: commend you for educating yourself enough to realize that what
Speaker 9: you were saying was wrong. What you're saying and doing
Speaker 9: and acting upon, and I think more people need to
Speaker 9: do that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, I totally agree. And I mean, this
Speaker 1: isn't like that particular part of my deconstruction is definitely
Speaker 1: not recent, Like this was very much like back when
Speaker 1: I was like reconsidering like everything, back in like twenty
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine, twenty ten something like that. I
Speaker 1: had already been in college for a long time and
Speaker 1: it was kind of a slow process, but it was
Speaker 1: kind of like that timeframe that I was like really
Speaker 1: reconsidering everything and really recognizing like, oh, yeah, you know
Speaker 1: that joke my uncle used to tell that was incredibly
Speaker 1: racist and not funny whatsoever, Right, Like, it definitely was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, was that way back in the days when you
Speaker 2: were just a godless engineering major?
Speaker 1: Well, no, it more than likely it wasn't when I
Speaker 1: was a godless engineering major, but I was a very
Speaker 1: god full engineering engineering student, you know. Just but I
Speaker 1: always describe myself as very laxadaisical in my belief, Like
Speaker 1: I would go in and out of like deep belief,
Speaker 1: but like it was never something that was like constant
Speaker 1: kind of thing.
Speaker 4: Cool.
Speaker 1: So, but we are at the end of our show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much Kelly for being our backup today.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you being here and everything. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me.
Speaker 9: I was a little late, but still thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know, as far as like an outro goes,
Speaker 1: you know, I hope that everybody has an awesome weekend.
Speaker 1: Normally I tell people to stand up, use your voice
Speaker 1: and all that kind of good shit, because I think
Speaker 1: that that's what we definitely need to do. And I
Speaker 1: think Ben, our last caller, there was a good example
Speaker 1: of that. Standing up, using your voice to positively affect
Speaker 1: other people or affect change in our society, I think
Speaker 1: is the best way to go about it. So wherever
Speaker 1: you go, whatever you do, stand up, use your voice, uh,
Speaker 1: and be that change that you want to see. Not
Speaker 1: to be too cliche about.
Speaker 2: It, do it, do it, just do it. Somebody should
Speaker 2: say that.
Speaker 10: Way to start alby y stop questioning the bulls everyone
Speaker 10: around your bias. They should say, JP Walkle Domsie eund David.
Speaker 4: Of Your.
Speaker 5: Watch Talk Even live Sundays at one pm Central. Visit
Speaker 5: tiny dot c c slash y t t H and
Speaker 5: call into the show at five one two nine nine
Speaker 5: one nine two four two, or connect to the show
Speaker 5: online at tiny dot c c slash.
Speaker 7: Call th H
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