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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of The Oath and the Office.

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I am John Fugel sang so great to have you

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with us. Donald Trump's Freedom to fifty concert is collapsing.

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It looks like not really a patriotic celebration. Friends, It's

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like the last night at a bankrupt casino that's trying

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to pay their electric bill with expired Arby's coupons. And

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I'm here to announce that Professor Corey Bretschneider has pulled

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out of Donald Trump's Freedom two hundred fifty concerts. He

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will not be performing on stage, so now it's just

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going to be Vanilla Ice and the animatronic rat band

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from Chuck E. Cheese. Folks, please welcome the star of

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this podcast, the author of The Oath and the Office,

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my favorite IVY League political science Professor Corey Bretschneider.

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Speaker 2: Hello, sir, Thanks John. You know it's going to be

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doing my spoken word verse.

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Speaker 1: At the I was so excited, but I just I.

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Speaker 2: Had to pull out. And you know, one reason I'm

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pulling away from Donald Trump is because he is a

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sinking ship. And today I'm just so excited for this

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discussion because so often it's just looking bleak and how

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are we going to survive this today? It's really all

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about the you know, checks and balances, working judges, fighting

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back lawsuits, including one that I'm proud to have worked with,

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the group that brought it Democracy Forward, winning in court,

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Congress pushing back and so you know, this this nightmare

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that we've been living through, and I'd really call it

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that we're seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.

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So this really is an episode about hope and about

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constitutional resistance that works. That's not just principle.

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Speaker 1: I agree. I hope our listeners are ready for all

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of the relentless good news that's going to be. We're

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just going to be a big up on People Show

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for the next hour because let's talk about our tattered,

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torn and frade guardrails. Professor Donald Trump had this kind

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of Friday last week. This was like a Friday that

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usually you see for cars tuned villains who tie themselves

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to railroad tracks by accident. A bevy of federal judges

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looked at multiple schemes at the same time and just

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responded like exhausted toddler parents and said no. This included

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his white trash supervillain plans for the Kennedy Center, which

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we will get to, but I want to begin by

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talking about how these institutions might really be strong enough

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to withstand one person, because it's been like a stress test.

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We saw multiple federal judges step in simultaneously, and I

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wanted to start with the one point eight billion dollar

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slush fund to pay off white supremacists who beat cops.

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This was a taxpayer funded compensation program, a rewards program

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for January sixth terrorists and people in Donald Trump's orbit

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for him to just give our money to whomever wants.

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And obviously the shock was on Friday when Judge Leoni

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Brinkhema blocked this anti weaponization slush fund. Professor, I mean,

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I don't even know where to begin with this, Like, historically,

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are there examples of democratic leader creating financial mechanisms that

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disproportionately reward political supporters? Has this ever happened in this

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country before?

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Speaker 2: Oh, we certainly have had slush funds before and illegal operations.

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And as you know from talking to me, of one

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of the things I'm doing lately is hunting around the

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Nixon Library archives. And Nixon was famous for receiving illegal contributions,

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often called slush funds, but it was done in private,

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in the dark, hidden. They were embarrassed by it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Mussolini had had the decency to do this under

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the table. I mean putin creates a shell company. They're

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just doing it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I got to say, you know, slush funds

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usually when we talk about them, they are you know,

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let's say they're in the tens of thousands or hundreds

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of thousands, or an extremely large slush fund would be

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in the millions. But at one point eight billion dollars

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that's going to be used to reward political supporters and

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done in the open, and done, you know, as a

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result of a settlement in this bogus IRS lawsuit. And

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you know, this is about stopping one person, but it

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shows you the power of that one person that we're

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even talking about this, the ability to sort of take

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what was supposed to be a compensation fund within the

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Department of Justice and then reorient it and let's just

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say what it was meant to do to pay political.

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Speaker 2: Supporters, Yeah, for engaging in insurrection.

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Speaker 1: I mean, was it a compensation fund like that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: This is for people who gave guilty please or are

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found guilty by juries this was a political reward system.

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I mean, the founders were very suspicious of patronage systems,

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weren't they, Professor like a fund controlled by the executive

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that can give huge sums of money secretly to people

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for politically defined reasons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some I would say some of this definitely was

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anticipated by those who are arguing about the Constitution for

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and against at the ratification moment. And I often talk

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not just about Hamilton and Madison, those who were for ratification,

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but the anti federalists whore opposed to it, and they're

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certainly relevant here because part of what they warned about is,

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you know, they anticipated the possibility that we now have

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of a criminal president, and this is what they said, Look,

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that person is going to be able to use their

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powers that are supposedly benign and for good to destroy

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the country, to engage in more crime. And one of

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the main things they worried about was the pardon power.

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And that's certainly relevant here because the January sixth insurrectionists,

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of course, the you know, well more than a thousand

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of them that were prosecuted by the Department of Justice

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during Biden were pardoned basically all of them, and now

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he's doubling down. This is part of the same story

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by creating this slush fund to pay them, and so

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people who are in the midst of the insurrection, in

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the midst of the attempted coup, like you know, the

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Proud Boys leaders are signing up and say, you know, hey, hey,

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give me some money, not just free me as a

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result of the pardon. And you know, so, I guess

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what I would say, just to answer your question, the

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anti federal has definitely anticipated the pardon power. Did they

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think about a one point eight billion dollar slush fund

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that I think was even too far fetched for anybody found.

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Speaker 1: Imagine, let's go back to what's become one of our

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favorite themes, Professor to cover on this humble little pod,

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which is that Congress traditionally controls appropriations. Again, they're supposed

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to do the funding for things like wars or bribes.

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I mean, a president creates a mechanism to direct billions

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of dollars with no congressional oversight that the Constitution has

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led us to expect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is where the story. You know, we

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said we're going to be hopeful, and now we can

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get hopeful pretty fast because a group called Democracy Forward.

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Who are the group that represented me and my cohort

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in the terriiff's case, and I was proud to work

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with them. They're a group that really has been formed

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to fight Trump and his abuses. On behalf of several

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litigants said, just what you said, you know, what about

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the separation of powers and can you just can a

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president just unilaterally take money that was allocated by Congress

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for one purpose? I guarantee you they didn't allocate it

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for the purpose of rewarding your political allies and insurrections

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and just diverted into it, as you said, as we

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keep rightly calling it a slush fund. They brought claims

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to saying this was arbitrary and capricious. Government action by

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the administration has to have some reason for it. It

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can be arbitrary. That's a requirement of a statute that

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really creates the administrative state, and you know, these kind

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of basic claims about how government is supposed to work.

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They also brought a First Amendment claim saying, you know, basically,

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it can't just redirect money to reward your allies and

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get them to pay them basically to attack your opponents, right,

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which is what this money, what this slush fund was

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meant to do. So all of those arguments did result

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in what you know, was looking pretty clearly like a

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victory in federal court. And that's part of the great

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story here that eventually, did you know, as you said

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in the beginning, lead them to back.

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Speaker 1: Down, Professor, One of the great lessons and themes you

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have taught me ever since I first became your padawan

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long ago, was this this notion that democracies don't usually

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collapse overnight. Democracies weaken through these tiny little acts that

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normalize favoritism and hierarchies. Does this fit that pattern.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if you look at how dictatorship and

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oligarchy were, it's you take money and you reward you know,

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you don't serve the general public, you don't follow the law,

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you just reward your cronies. And look at what he

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was doing here. You know, when he said, way back

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in the first term, proud boys, you know, stand by

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and stand down. He was sort of commanding this private army.

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And then when we watched the proud Boys and the

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oathkeepers and his supporters attack the capital on January sixth,

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that obviously wasn't an active democracy. It was an active dictatorship.

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And now you know, if you really want to solidify

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that bond between the insurrectionists and your private army, essentially

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you have to reward them because the more that you

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back off and they look like criminals, you've abandoned them,

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which essentially had done for a while the worst it is.

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So the pardon was the first step, but now it's money.

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You know, this is real salary to engage in insurrection.

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That was what he was trying to do. And so

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the courts stepping in here, this wasn't just any moment

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to step in. It really was the moment in which

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the financial creation of this paramilitary force, you know, was

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about to be formed one point eight billion dollars, an

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incredible amount of money with no oversight, you know, to

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do what to set up his dictatorship.

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Speaker 1: It's like, we get the dumb leptocracies, Corey, we get

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the cacistocracy here. We couldn't get the shrewd fascists. We

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got the dopes. And now, you know, we talk a

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lot about all the different ways that individuals have resisted

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in the guardrails of the courts, but let's talk about

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the states, Corey, because as you know, before America's racists

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fell in love with Donald Trump, they loved something called

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states rights. And it was what the racist when I

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was growing up loved more than anything else. Oh, those

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states rights unless some states want to have things like

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legal weed or gun safety laws. Now we see the

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states are really getting creative on this slush fund. California,

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New York, Connecticut, and Jersey all discussing imposing a one

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hundred percent tax on any of their state residents who

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receive these slush fund payments. This is wild. This is

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what I think people want to see. This is what

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they want to see from Democrats in DC. This kind

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of ingenuity is this federalism functioning as intended professor. The

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states are being a counterweight when the federal government appears

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to be abusing power.

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Speaker 2: Look what your face with dictatorship. And that's what this

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fund was really trying to do, is to set up

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a fund again, to fund not in secret. You know,

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usually slush funds. For instance, the plumbers during Nixon era

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were paid through a slush fund, a secret fund to

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support a you know, secrets very small you know, we're

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talking like a few handfuls of.

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Speaker 1: Nixon had the decency that do this under the table,

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good god, hey, and.

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Speaker 2: With very little money compared to what we're talking about now.

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They were embarrassed, they knew it was illegal, and now

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you know, doing it in public. So how do you

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oppose it? Well, one thing that we've talked about is

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citizens fighting back. It's partly about the story about a

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heroic judge. That also is stories of this group, these citizens,

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some of whom, by the way, we're former Department of

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Justice employees and democracy forward. And then it also is

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creativity within state officials. And so Newsom in California talking

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about this tax in the New York twelfth congressional district,

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there's a primary candidate who's jumped in suggesting of tax

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in New York. And you know, these are not normal times,

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and these are not normal suggestions a tax on a

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specific recipient of federal money. And the abstract sounds like,

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you know, what are you doing? That's targeting individuals, But

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when you see how illegal the payment is, how it's

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also part of his scheme to undermine our democracy perfectly,

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you know, right, And you know, I think it's over

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ninety of the potential people who are going to get

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paid under this slush fund. We're in New York, so

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this isn't a small no way of port to be creative,

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you know. That's what this is all about. Fight back

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multiple fronts. You know where we can.

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Speaker 1: Well, the founder has built so many multiple layers of

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government partly because they distrust they distrusted concentrated power. I mean,

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if these states are trying to neutralize a correct federal program,

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doesn't that say our institutions are healthy. If the states

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are treating federal programs as potential threats requiring defensive action,

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that looks like the body protecting itself.

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Speaker 2: Look, we're all in this giant nightmare.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: I call it a log exam. It's more like the

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kind of exam loxam you're taking a nightmare because it's

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all real. And what we're really asking is whether or

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not the system can survive and whether or not the

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pose the checks and balances really are checks imbalances. The

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anti federalists, by the way I keep bringing up I

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should say, their view was, no, we're not going to survive.

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The democracy is too weak to survive a criminal president.

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And don't ratify this constitution because it's going to collapse,

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and it's going to collapse, they argued, on behalf of

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a president who's going to use crime and the pardon

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power to collapse it. Now, you know that's not the

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end of the story. Madison and Hamilton and others said, no,

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we've designed this thing with multiple mechanisms to stop excess

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in power. One thing is Article three the courts, which

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we've been talking about in this lawsuit. And here's another thing,

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and Madison and Jefferson I mentioned particularly, we're interested in

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the tenth Amendment, the idea that there are powers reserved

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to the local and state governments to resist That later

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gets co opted by anti civil rights forces, but much earlier,

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Madison and Jefferson themselves use it because when John Adams

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tries to shut down free speech, what do they do,

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They say, well, you know, good luck and enforce that

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against us. We're going to use the states to fight back.

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We're not going to comply with demands to shut down

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political opponents. It was a very different time and a

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different set of circumstances. But these kind of proposals of

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using taxation on illegally gotten gains to destroy democracy, I

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think you know that's using the same techniques, the balance

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of power. And we're always in this moment in a

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battle between the anti federalists who say, no, we're not

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going to survive, and the federalists who said, here, we

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gave you all these gifts, all these separation of powers,

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this federalism, use it, fight back and win.

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Speaker 1: I can I stretch out a lot? Could I stretch

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out this chadenfreud a good news act a little bit longer?

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Speaker 2: I think, because we've got a great end too.

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Speaker 1: It got better on Friday. I mean, you'd think it

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couldn't get better. But then, and this is before Milli

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Vanilli dropped out to the concert, This before Milli Vanilli

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decided Donald Trump's concert was inauthentic. Before all that happened,

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It seems like last Friday, the week ended with the

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Judicial deciding to schedule a group project on humiliating Donald Trump.

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Because this is the most interesting story of all for me,

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Professor of Federal Judge decided to reopen scrutiny into his

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really weird, bizarre ten billion dollar IRS lawsuits settlement slash

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self pardon slash billion dollar money vacuum that he just

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set up. This was the case that he agreed to

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close this really sussed ten billion. He was suing his

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own government to have his lawyers pay him from our money,

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and then oh, I'm going to compromise and just make

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this two billion dollars for my henchmen. Right, this is fascinating, Corey.

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Thirty five retired federal judges. I've been waiting to ask

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you about this. Thirty five retired judges. I guess they're

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on a group chat. They got together, looked at this thing,

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and they were like, this is a fraud wrapped at

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a scam dressed as a lawsuit. And this thing was

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so cartoonishly crooked. It's like a late eighties Scooby Doo episode.

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Sue your own government, dismiss your own lawsuit, create your

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own mega account controlled by your own people. Sounds fictional,

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But thirty five retired federal judges asked for scrutiny, and

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a sitting federal judge just reopened that lawsuit that was

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only a pretense to get this whole scam going. Where

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to begin from a constitutional perspective? How extraordinary, crazy and

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batshit professor is that sequence of events?

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Speaker 2: But I love this. I loved starting with Scooby Doo,

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maybe before we.

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Speaker 1: Go to the law I haven't waited on this story.

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This is my favorite of all the stories.

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Speaker 2: I was just think, if you're in the Scooby Doo

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writer's room and somebody comes up with this scheme, you know,

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the mystery van being solved back you know to who.

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Speaker 1: But then you know, Trump is like, this is a

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brilliant idea, and Scooby says, ruddy rum and they throw

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Scoopy out the mystery van.

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Speaker 2: And Scooby went at it kind of. Scooby went along

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with everything, and that's what Trump wants to the Department

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of Justice to do. Scooby was always like, okay, it

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was up for anything.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm like, this is crazy. It seems like

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this judge is opening reopening this lawsuit that he only filed.

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Let's get it to mess with the system to create

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this corrupt slush fund. And now a judge is like,

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was there ever a genuine adversarial dispute? I mean, it's

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a constitutional question. Can the president effectively sue himself? They

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are calling bluff on his scam?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the answer is no. You know, just to

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get into the details, these former federal judges looked at this.

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They urge reopening the case, which looks like the judge

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is doing. And let me just say what the basic

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you know, we've given our Scooby Doo analogy at length. Yeah,

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let's get it here for those issues are here, because

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what's being claimed by these judges, and what I think

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eventually this federal judge will say is that this is

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what's known as a fraud on the court. And let

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me just lay that out. It doesn't mean, you know,

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that Trump cheated on his taxes or something like that,

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which is what it sounds like. It means that when

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you go into a court, which are going back to

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this idea of the separation of powers distinct from the

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executive branch, this is now Article three the courts, you

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can't lie and you have to have a genuine conflict.

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So this was set up as some sort of fake conflict,

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supposed conflict between the president and the irs, but of

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course it was anything. But it was really, you know,

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a scheme where different parts of the federal government were

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being pulled on by Trump in order to orchestrate a

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fake settlement of essentially Trump with himself that then could

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be turned into by the Department of Justice. This slush

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fund through you know, lots of supposed you know, arguments

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and conflict. There was no conflict here. There was a

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president and his minions organizing a way for Trump to

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take money and give it to his supporters. And this

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idea that there was some sort of lawsuit here that

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was settled. That's the fraud on the court.

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Speaker 1: And then that's what I believes. They finally believe in reparations,

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but only for terrorists. I'm sorry, professor, go ahead, so

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you know.

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Speaker 2: I know we're going to talk about this. But Trump,

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after all of these attacks and maneuvers, saw the writing

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on the wall and is now pulling out of this

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slush fund. But what was happening, I think, was that

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minimum that this judge was going to put the kibosh

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on all of this on the grounds that it was

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a fraud on the court and that you know, you

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have to have a real conflict. You can't by the way,

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the lawyers are going to be at issue here, and

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I'll talk about how this is even going to be

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ongoing even if Trump withdraws now that he's in the

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right go into court and lie. They can't play the

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role of we're having a conflict and really be secretly

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talking to each other and engaged in a conspiracy that

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is not allowed. And the sanctions could range from fines

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to disbarment. And my hope is that even though the

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Trump administration is going to say, oh, we change our mind,

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you know, no such fun, that this fraud on the

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court will be identified, called out, and that this judge

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will defend the Article three branch with sanctions on those

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who are involved in them. And you know, this involves everyone,

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the IRS, the Department of Justice, Trump himself, to the

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extent that Trump's family is involved in the IRS lawsuit self,

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which is originally about closing their.

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Speaker 1: Tax His two sons, Hunter and Hunter are both involved

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with us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, everybody I think is don't you mean.

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Speaker 1: But again, Corey, again, if they're robbing us, it's a kleptocracy,

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incompetent crooks, cacistocracy. Like they couldn't come content with just

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the bribe scheme. They had to build into this deal

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that the IRS was never allowed to scrutinize any of

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Donald Trump or his two hideous sons, Fredo and Shechem's

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business dealings. They're literally guilty of fraud, and the IRS

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is never allowed to investigate them for all they got

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Joe Greedy, They're just too stupid with their greed, Corey.

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If both sides of a dispute are ultimately controlled by

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the same person, that means there is no legitimacy to

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our legal process. And I think the hero here is

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these thirty five retired judges who I hope I use

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my retirement years so well. They used very strong language.

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How rare is it does he dozens of retired federal

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judges from very different ideological backgrounds feeling compelled to intervene.

399
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I mean, you keep using this phrase fraud on the court.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's hard to think of an instance where

401
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,920
you see not just some petition but a very direct

402
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appeal to a judge that then it looks like works.

403
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And this language of fraud on the court is extreme,

404
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and you wouldn't say that, and it's not like in

405
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a normal lawsuit, even one that involves Trump and the

406
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Department of Justice, that's what you'd say, which is essentially

407
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that the whole thing is made up, that it's all

408
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a lie. So you know, it was an extreme circumstance.

409
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It was done again, they didn't even try to hide it.

410
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The fact that they did this all in public, you know,

411
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anybody who they were Essentially, you know, we can see

412
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with our own eyes what's happening. It's obvious, yes, and

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these judges had the willingness to say what was happening,

414
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to call it out, and you know that's why I

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think it was stopped. And you know, I don't know

416
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without them. We had the other lawsuit that I talked about,

417
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you know that that was progressing nicely, but this was

418
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really powerful. I will say these were in ordinary judges.

419
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Some of them have been, you know, in the forefront

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of speaking out against Trump and were Republican appointees too. Yeah,

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we were judges.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, But I mean, you know again, I mean, if

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Alien Cannon can do her corruption in public, these judges

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can call it out in public. And exactly one of

425
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the fascinating parts of this story here for me, and

426
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I know we have to have a break soon, but

427
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the Republican opposition to the slush fund appears to have

428
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increased after the judges intervened. We've talked a lot about

429
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the cowardice that's going on here with men and women

430
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who know what's being done is wrong, but they're too

431
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terrified of being primary and getting a one way ticket

432
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,839
to Thomas Massey Island. It seems like it's easier for

433
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elected officials to oppose a corrupt president once courts establish

434
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legal legitimacy for that opposition. Right, this is about the

435
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spell breaks.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: The theory is that political strongmen are all always invincible

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until institutions resist them publicly, and then the supporters suddenly

439
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,519
discovered these magical limits they didn't know they had inside

440
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them before.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's a good way to describe it. You know,

442
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I want to praise Congress, and it looks like Republican

443
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members of Congress were willing to say I've had enough.

444
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And one of the reasons why Trump backed down was

445
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that he realized that he was getting into a confrontation

446
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not just with these two judges, with Article three courts,

447
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but with Congress as well. And so, you know, look,

448
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what's happening is the separation of powers is now working

449
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as it was supposed to. Think about it, think of

450
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all the levels that we've talked about, the States resisting

451
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with their threat of the taxation, the two court cases

452
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and the irs, and in the slush fund case itself

453
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being directly challenged courts were starting to say, I don't

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think so fraud on the court, that this is all

455
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a scam, that you're not really involved in a conflict.

456
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And then as that built, now you know, a little

457
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late to the game, but it still matters, Congress came

458
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in and said, look at all the evidence, Look what's happening.

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You know, law is a teacher, and it began to

460
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teach Congress what was happening. And I just believe it

461
00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:09,680
got not that they're heroic, these Republican members of Congress,

462
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but that they just got too embarrassed to go along

463
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with them. And after all, it is the Congress that

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allocates the money, so they were implicated. If they were silent,

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they would be complicitic.

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Speaker 1: And they all know how this movie ends, Corey. Let's

467
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,960
be honest, they know this movie End's like the last

468
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,359
Scena Scarface, right. I mean, I just want to thank you, professor,

469
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because I know we've covered a lot of ground here,

470
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but like America is so at risk of becoming numb

471
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to these stories that would have been front page constitutional

472
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crises back in the nineties, And I thank you Corey

473
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for not normalizing conduct that earlier generations would have called

474
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,039
out as being crazy. We have to take a break

475
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,160
or Wendy is going to beat us both up. But

476
00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:49,759
when we come back, let's talk a bit more about

477
00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:53,880
the bad news this president has received, namely, he doesn't

478
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,680
get to name John F. Kennedy's things after himself. This

479
00:24:56,759 --> 00:24:57,599
is the Oath in the Office.

480
00:24:57,599 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

481
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Oath in the Office. I'm John

482
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,839
Fiegel sang along with Professor Corey Bretschneider and Professor I

483
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:16,920
found something else that you and I both have in

484
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,079
common with Donald Trump. I know there's so little that

485
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,720
we have in common with him, and we don't want

486
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,839
to be haters. We always look for any signs of

487
00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:26,559
common ground to see, oh we we could be brothers.

488
00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:28,119
We see eye to why on this and I found

489
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,240
a great area of common understanding with you and me

490
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,200
and Trump. You and I didn't want to go to

491
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,720
his firstborn son's wedding either, so that's something we share

492
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:38,319
with the President.

493
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 2: Corey.

494
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,319
Speaker 1: We can't stand being around that guy.

495
00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: Well, you know Freda. I always protested that he was

496
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,000
smart and that he was underappreciated, and that he was

497
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,640
passed over, passed over. He complained to Mike Laws, Why

498
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,519
did that that care?

499
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 1: Jesus you taking care of me?

500
00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: That that's pretty good.

501
00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: I shipped your ex off to be ambassador of Greece.

502
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,079
Speaker 2: I wantn't more than that. I'm smart, smart, all.

503
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,839
Speaker 1: Right, So first I apologize. I apologize to the ghost

504
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,359
of the great John Cazal forever comparing you to this

505
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,519
cocaine scarecrow of Donald Trump Junior Corey. The Kennedy Center humiliation.

506
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,319
It's maybe the most Trump story imaginable. Imagine being so

507
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,960
pathologically desperate for validation that you slap your name onto

508
00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:33,880
a national arts institution that was named by a griefing

509
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,799
nation after a murdered president. Imagine your parents withholding that

510
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,759
much love from your infant self. So late last week,

511
00:26:41,839 --> 00:26:45,240
Judge Christopher Cooper ruled against Trump's proposal to add his

512
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,559
name to the Kennedy Center. He's got to do this

513
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,359
because he knows no one's going to name anything after

514
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,359
him once he's dead, so he's got to force it

515
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,400
while he's alive. But the judge was, like, no Congress

516
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,680
named it after President Kennedy. Trump, you don't get to

517
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,759
rename American landmarks after yourself, like you're changing the WI

518
00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:03,440
fi password at mar A Lago. I kid, Trump doesn't

519
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:04,960
know how to do that, but I mean Trump had

520
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:11,240
an absolute meltdown afterwards. Corey. Why do institutions like a

521
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,000
John Kennedy Center for Performing Arts matter in a democracy?

522
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 2: Well, I think they matter as a symbol, you know,

523
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,960
And they matter too because of the way the symbol

524
00:27:20,039 --> 00:27:22,359
was created. It was an act of Congress meant to

525
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:27,759
honor an assassinated president with a dignified center devoted to

526
00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:32,000
the arts, and of course John F. Kennedy lover of

527
00:27:32,039 --> 00:27:35,079
the arts. This was a way of in trining his legacy.

528
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,480
And I think too the fact that it was done

529
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,640
through the law that it was congressionally created, allocated, and

530
00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:46,759
the terms of how the Kennedy Center is supposed to operate,

531
00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:49,799
the obligation of the government to run it, all of

532
00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:52,359
that really are a tribute. You know. One thing that

533
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,240
we do on this podcast, of course, is that you know,

534
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,880
as listeners just heard, as we report the facts, we

535
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,079
talk about why things are done, but we also talk

536
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,160
about hope and we laugh and you know, this is laughable,

537
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,799
the idea that this guy was trying to destroy this

538
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,680
kind of perfect symbol of American democracy by just sticking

539
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,359
his name on it Mount Rushmore too hard. But you

540
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,960
know now, but we can, we can laugh about it.

541
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,279
Speaker 1: But if Mount Rushmore was dedicated after Roosevelt and Lincoln

542
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,000
and Jefferson and Washington were tragically murdered, and then he

543
00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:27,680
tried to put his face on it, it'd be just

544
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,279
as ghost remind everyone. You know who should be really

545
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:33,920
offended here as people who care about English grammar because

546
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,839
they literally labeled the building the Donald J. Trump and

547
00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:42,799
the John F. Kennedy memorials. There's two us, there's two Thus,

548
00:28:43,119 --> 00:28:45,599
the Donald J. Trump and the John Kennedy.

549
00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:51,079
Speaker 2: Said grammar was never the strong respect for constitutional democracy.

550
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: You have written repeatedly about how authoritarian minded leaders always

551
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,920
try to seek influence over not just the political institutions.

552
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,799
Why are strong men so interested in universities and museums

553
00:29:04,799 --> 00:29:07,200
and arts centers and cultural centers.

554
00:29:08,119 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: You know, I think that government and democracy doesn't just

555
00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:15,720
have policies and laws and allocation and bills. It has symbols.

556
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,160
And we define ourselves as a democracy through our symbols.

557
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,359
The state literally expresses the ideas or speaks in favor

558
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,720
of the ideas of democracy with its symbols. So the

559
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:29,960
Kennedy Center was one way that you know, think of

560
00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:34,240
the national monuments on the mall, the Martin Luther King Memorial,

561
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,119
a testament to the civil rights movement and the battles

562
00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:41,079
for democracy. The complexity of the Jefferson Memorial, you know,

563
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,039
the acknowledgment of course of his heinous ownership of other

564
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,599
human beings, but also the aspirations of Jefferson. You know,

565
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,359
that's what we do with our public monuments.

566
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: America and debate with itself. That's what it is.

567
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what is this guy? He is a want

568
00:29:58,039 --> 00:30:00,720
to be dictator and so the ball of him just

569
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,519
trying to stamp his name with no congressional authorities in

570
00:30:04,519 --> 00:30:08,440
this awkward ungrammatical I like the way there's not there's

571
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:09,480
not grammatically correct.

572
00:30:09,519 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: There's two those they can't even against English.

573
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,839
Speaker 2: What a symbol you know that that he just wants

574
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,799
to what he wants to rewrite history. That's the January sixth, that's.

575
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: The historical pattern though right with the leader allies. The

576
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,960
strong man has to rewrite history. That's January sixth. That's

577
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,359
putting his own name on the Kennedy set. I mean people,

578
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,079
people imagine if he if he renamed it the Donald J.

579
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,279
Trump Vietnam Veterans Memorial. Do you know what I'm saying? Like,

580
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,519
maybe the people would have cared. I just think it's

581
00:30:39,559 --> 00:30:40,440
not I gotta say.

582
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: I just that image popped in my head of him

583
00:30:42,759 --> 00:30:45,839
taking his face and it's the Martin Luther King and

584
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,240
Donald Trump. Oh yeah, Jefferson and Trump. And that's what

585
00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:53,000
I want to dictator does is Donald J.

586
00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: Trump Black History? Yeah? Yeah, the Donald J. Trump Museum

587
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,039
of the American Indian I mean, he'll do it for anything.

588
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:02,039
I mean, And the president doesn't have any inherent authority

589
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,440
to rename congressionally created institutions. We have to talk about that.

590
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,960
It's not just that normally in a free society, people

591
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,920
don't try to do personal branding on national institutions. He's

592
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,400
not legally allowed to do this. What would be the

593
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,799
constitutional danger, Professor Bretschneider, if presidents could just rename public

594
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,640
landmarks and cultural institutions or federal facilities that Donald J.

595
00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:28,599
Trump Grand Canyon, Like, what would be the danger of this?

596
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 2: Well, I think that it goes to the heart of

597
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,000
democracy that it's Congress that allocates the funds. It costs

598
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:37,160
money to build these memorials. In the way that our

599
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,640
system works is we don't just give us slush fund

600
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,759
to the president to do whatever he wants with, whether

601
00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:46,480
it's to reward his insurrectionists or to build monuments to himself.

602
00:31:46,839 --> 00:31:49,440
And so each of these symbols that we've talked about,

603
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:54,160
the Jefferson Memorial, the Kennedy Center, they are created through

604
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,519
democratic decisions. And part of the democratic decision is also

605
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,039
in what it's going to say. The point of it is,

606
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:03,960
and that's why Congress is so important. And this is,

607
00:32:04,119 --> 00:32:06,759
you know, in some ways a small story, but it

608
00:32:06,839 --> 00:32:10,279
is a symbol of all of it because this center

609
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,759
was created by Congress with very specific requirements that then

610
00:32:13,839 --> 00:32:16,160
this want to be dictator just came in and tried

611
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,200
to literally ride out by sticking his name on it,

612
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,559
by undermining those trustees who were trying to defend it,

613
00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:26,400
and you know, looks, thankfully like he's backing down because

614
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,759
he's realized that, just as in that other story, that

615
00:32:28,839 --> 00:32:31,319
the courts are eventually going to stop him, and he

616
00:32:31,359 --> 00:32:35,119
doesn't want the headache. And it really is, unfortunately, the

617
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,039
whole story of these two terms, his first term and

618
00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:41,599
this one, are the story of a struggle of authoritarianism

619
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,200
versus democracy. And one reason why I feel like we're

620
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,839
in a good mood today is because democracy this week

621
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,559
looks like it's winning. Yeah.

622
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:50,319
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you're right. I mean, this whole thing

623
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:52,319
with the Kennedy Center, it's not about a building. It's

624
00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:58,759
about whether a ruler can override congressional intent. Right. It

625
00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:00,559
would take an act of Congress to do this, because

626
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,039
it took an Act of Congress to set it up

627
00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:02,720
in the first place.

628
00:33:03,319 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: I think it's that simple. You know, there are all

629
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,079
these stories that Americans don't know the three branches of government.

630
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,200
Some people are saying they're increasingly learning them.

631
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: President doesn't know them. Trump didn't know the three branches problem.

632
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then when the president tries to stamp his name.

633
00:33:18,079 --> 00:33:20,599
But you know, we're we're heading, in real time a

634
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,160
stress test of the Constitution. And you know, the other

635
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,440
story that we were talking about was much more serious one.

636
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about something else.

637
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, to fund insurrections. But this is symbolically serious and

638
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:33,400
that it's the same question of whether or not we're

639
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,599
going to allow him to destroy laws passed by Congress.

640
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: Let me bring up something that's symbolically serious and also

641
00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:46,000
just terrifying because it represents a predator punishing his adjudicated victim.

642
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,200
Reports are that the Justice Department is going to open

643
00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:54,039
up an investigation into Ejen Carroll, the woman whom a

644
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,240
jury found Donald Trump legally liable for sexual abusing and

645
00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:01,519
later defaming. He's lost a cup the trials with Egene

646
00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:04,519
on a couple of different cases. A full disclosure. I've

647
00:34:04,519 --> 00:34:06,920
known Egene Carol since I was very young. One of

648
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,519
my first broadcast jobs was doing an NBC morning show

649
00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:12,760
with her in the nineties. She has made sixty eight

650
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,159
million dollars in these lawsuits and he is still refusing

651
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,679
to pay. And now that he is an adjudicated rapist

652
00:34:18,679 --> 00:34:21,280
and we can say that a civil jury found him

653
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,960
liable for sexually abusing her, juries have already weighed the evidence,

654
00:34:26,039 --> 00:34:28,480
and he is opening up the government to try to

655
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:31,320
say this woman somehow committed perjury and lied under oath

656
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:36,360
because he's determined to get revenge, no matter how evil

657
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:37,880
it makes him look in the history books.

658
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 2: It is amazing. You know that it's an ongoing story

659
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,400
that we've been covering his attempt to prosecute his political

660
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,159
opponents we saw it with James call me, and now

661
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,719
we're seeing it here, and she embarrassed him. She got

662
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,960
the facts out, as you know, we've we're very carefully saying,

663
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,719
in adjudicated rapist in a civil suit who has found

664
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,320
that she was credible and he was not, and he

665
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,760
wants his revenge. Now here's the problem. The Attorney General

666
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,039
of the United States also has been his personal lawyer

667
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:10,519
working on the deal in this case, so you know,

668
00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:13,880
he's at least had the recognition that he better recuse himself.

669
00:35:14,119 --> 00:35:17,000
But the fact that the Department of Justice is looking

670
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,400
into this, that they're considering it is itself a tragedy,

671
00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:24,519
and you know, part of the demise of that once

672
00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:28,679
great institution that it's being used as the personal, not

673
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,639
even personal lawyer, personal attack dog of the President of

674
00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:35,920
the United States, not just against his enemies, but against

675
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,639
his victims. That's part of the story here. I've got

676
00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:41,079
to ask you, John, since you do know Egene Carol,

677
00:35:41,159 --> 00:35:43,400
I mean, and I think listeners would be interested, and

678
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,599
you've worked with her, tell us about her. What it

679
00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:47,400
was she like as a colleague of somebody.

680
00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: Beld I mean, I've never I've only spent time with

681
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,960
her in TV studios and radio and on My Serious

682
00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:54,840
XM show. But I mean, you know, she was quite

683
00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:58,000
a personality in television in the nineties, and I did

684
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,719
a show on NBC called Real Life with her, and

685
00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:03,159
you know, everyone in New York media knew who she was.

686
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,679
She was very, very well known. She's not the kind

687
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:09,639
of person who had come out and create a false accusation.

688
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,679
And technically, if you go through the rather grueling details

689
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,480
of her allegations against Donald Trump, he did to her

690
00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:21,000
exactly what he's on tape bragging he likes to do

691
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,519
to women, which is why this is such a chilling case,

692
00:36:25,559 --> 00:36:28,239
because I don't know. I mean, I know there's historical

693
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,559
examples in this country of elected leaders who are trying

694
00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:35,320
to use government power against personal adversaries. And god knows,

695
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,159
the media has been trying to paint eg and Carol

696
00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:38,920
as a kouk. You know, from the very beginning. They

697
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,360
have to discredit the victim anyway they can, which is

698
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,519
what people do in these scenarios. But I mean, I

699
00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:47,519
just thought of you right away because it's so dastardly, professor.

700
00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:50,519
I mean, what were the first constitutional questions that popped

701
00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:54,079
into your head? That an administration is investigating someone who

702
00:36:54,199 --> 00:36:59,400
successfully sued the president. It's so much more cartoonishly dumb

703
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,000
than what they did.

704
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: You know, it is. And I was thinking about the

705
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,000
history of this Department of Justice, created during the Grant

706
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,880
administration in order to protect civil rights. The first prosecutions

707
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,559
really brought by the Department of Justice were the prosecutions

708
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,840
against the Klan and other white supremacists who threatened Vibes

709
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,320
and killed and attack black voters. The kind of heroic

710
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,039
recovery from Trump and the prosecution, such expense and work

711
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,639
of the insurrectionists, finding you know, over a thousand of

712
00:37:31,679 --> 00:37:35,000
them and prosecuting them. And now what it's been turned

713
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,519
into is the personal tool of this president used to

714
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:40,760
go after I mean, we've been talking about going after

715
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,000
his political opponents. This is something different.

716
00:37:44,159 --> 00:37:47,039
Speaker 1: This is why women don't come forward. This is why

717
00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:50,679
women don't come forward, because, yes, because he's using the

718
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:54,800
instruments of government to pursue his own victim after she

719
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:55,960
got justice.

720
00:37:56,159 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: Right, And of course there's no political anything here. It

721
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,639
really is just a private vendetta. And as bad as

722
00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:06,360
the attack on Komi is, and before this, I would

723
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,320
have said, wow, this is in history, one of the

724
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:13,840
worst abuses of the prosecution power of the federal government. Well,

725
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,360
now she's really become the chief victim of his Well,

726
00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:19,920
want to be dictatorship. The thing about dictators is they

727
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,159
don't distinguish between the personal and the political. Their political

728
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:26,079
opponents are personal, and their personal opponents are political. And

729
00:38:26,119 --> 00:38:27,079
that's what we're seeing here.

730
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,639
Speaker 1: Imagine explaining this story in nineteen ninety two, right, Imagine saying, so,

731
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,199
the president was found liable for sexual abuse and defamation,

732
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,880
and then his administration launched a criminal probe into the

733
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,440
woman he's sexually abused. Imagine saying this thirty Every Republican

734
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,199
in Congress would have called it the ends of the Republic.

735
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,480
Now they'll just nod solemnly, and they'll ask if she

736
00:38:46,639 --> 00:38:50,119
was woke. But I mean, what would James Madison say,

737
00:38:50,159 --> 00:38:54,480
Professor seriously about a president using state power against a

738
00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:57,320
citizen who had successfully challenged him in court.

739
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,599
Speaker 2: You know, I think we go back to that debate

740
00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:02,920
between the federalists and the anti federalists, and I think

741
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,519
that what the anti federalists, people like Patrick Henry, would

742
00:39:05,519 --> 00:39:08,719
have said is this is possible. I think they imagined

743
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,320
that a criminal president couldn't be prosecuted because he controlled

744
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,639
or she controlled the mechanism of prosecution. That was their

745
00:39:17,679 --> 00:39:20,400
main argument. The stuff about the pardon power is part

746
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,079
of it, but their main argument is they're in charge,

747
00:39:23,199 --> 00:39:26,000
and they're in charge of who's going to be attacked

748
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,119
as unlawful, and that can be manipulated by a criminal president.

749
00:39:30,639 --> 00:39:33,280
I think the response of people like James Madison and

750
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,639
Hamilton was that would never happen. We're going to let

751
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,119
people of virtue into this office. Well, we were really

752
00:39:39,159 --> 00:39:41,960
in a challenging moment because this is not only not

753
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:44,119
a person of virtue, I should say what they meant

754
00:39:44,159 --> 00:39:47,000
by that a person of virtue, somebody respected the law. Yes,

755
00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:49,400
is somebody who the law is of his own weapon.

756
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:53,280
And wow, it is the anti federalist nightmare come to life.

757
00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:55,559
Speaker 1: Before it's my job to ask the dumb questions here,

758
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:58,079
and this is just so huge, Corey. Let me just

759
00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:00,519
let me just take one for the team. If a

760
00:40:00,559 --> 00:40:04,639
president does use government machinery against private citizens because of

761
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:08,719
personal grievances. We began this with him using the machinery

762
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,719
of the government for his henchmen, but if he uses

763
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,599
it against private citizens, he hates what constitutional principles are

764
00:40:15,639 --> 00:40:17,440
being threatened right before our eyes.

765
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, the idea of the rule of law. You know,

766
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,159
I think certainly it's selective prosecution. That's what call Me

767
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,800
is going to argue. And if this suit has ever brought,

768
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,239
if she's ever indicted for this, not just investigated, then

769
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,000
that's I think the argument is selective prosecution. But of

770
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,000
course it goes well beyond that. The President of the

771
00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:38,840
United States is really committing a fraud on the courts,

772
00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:43,000
on the American public, and attacking a political opponent in

773
00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:46,559
the next administration. You know, one question will be of

774
00:40:46,599 --> 00:40:49,199
the crimes, and I think there are many crimes committed

775
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,280
by the President's why I refer to him as a

776
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,039
criminal president. This might be one of them. Trying to

777
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:58,559
weaponize a public institution for private gain. Now he'll of

778
00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:02,519
course claim immunity, immunity, immunity, but this is not a

779
00:41:02,559 --> 00:41:05,880
public role. He's doing this, you know, in response to

780
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,639
a private vendetta. So it might be an interesting issue

781
00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:10,159
in which immunity might not apply.

782
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 1: Did you send a gift for Don Junior's wedding to

783
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,199
the Epstein account's daughter Because I totally forgot Corey. I'm

784
00:41:16,199 --> 00:41:17,760
so sorry. I know I told you I would send

785
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,559
a gift from both of us. I totally forgot send anything.

786
00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:22,519
Speaker 2: I try anything. What would we get him?

787
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 1: Something, something that humiliate Eric.

788
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:25,679
Speaker 2: I think he'd liked that.

789
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 1: We have to take a very quick break when we

790
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,079
come back. I got to ask you a little bit

791
00:41:29,079 --> 00:41:31,440
about what's going on at sixty Minutes here and as

792
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,559
well as seems like a lot of lawyers don't want

793
00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:35,719
to work for this administration. Back in just a moment

794
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:45,199
to wrap it all up on the Oath and the Office,

795
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,119
Welcome back to the Oath in the Office. I'm John Fugel, saying, okay, Professor,

796
00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:51,440
a couple of stories to wrap up this crazy week.

797
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:56,679
We've been reading a lot about the hellscape at CBS News.

798
00:41:57,159 --> 00:42:00,320
Scott Pelly is getting a lot of accolades for the

799
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,000
way he laced into their new executive producer and Barry Weiss,

800
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,519
But a lot of it has to do with the

801
00:42:06,559 --> 00:42:11,480
firing of this journalist who accused Sixty Minutes of political meddling,

802
00:42:11,679 --> 00:42:16,119
Sharon el Fonsi. She had a piece. They killed it.

803
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:18,280
They killed it for political reasons. They didn't give any

804
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,599
reason why. She's been with the show since twenty fifteen,

805
00:42:21,159 --> 00:42:23,000
She said she would not resign and would only leave

806
00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:26,559
if she was actively fired by CBS. One of the

807
00:42:26,599 --> 00:42:28,760
recurring themes in your work that I have learned is

808
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,639
that democracies don't lose press freedom all at once, they

809
00:42:32,679 --> 00:42:36,280
lose it incrementally. And boy, looking at CBS, this is

810
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,679
the week after Colbert goes off the year because of

811
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,960
this government. How should Americans think about this dispute between

812
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,639
Sharon el Fonsi and CBS or the network formerly known

813
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:46,360
as CBS.

814
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,559
Speaker 2: Now, this is the most hard hitting news program, you know,

815
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:52,239
maybe in our history, and certainly at this moment. Its

816
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,320
role is not just through print journalism, but by showing

817
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,360
us abuses like what was going on in that Glulag prison.

818
00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:02,679
Speaker 1: That's what I'm sorry. Sorry, it was about the Seacock prison, YESNL.

819
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,079
Speaker 2: Salvador, Yeah, the Seacock prison, right exactly, and that we

820
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:08,320
see it with our own eyes, the human rights abuses,

821
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,960
and this administration with dictatorship is about is not wanting

822
00:43:12,039 --> 00:43:13,760
us to see things with their own eyes, to see

823
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,679
it through their eyes. And I think this also, you know,

824
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,079
we talk on this show a lot about oligarchy and

825
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:22,920
the way that private corporations get co opted, and we've

826
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,880
seen that with Jeff Bezos and his editorial page really

827
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:31,039
disappearing from opposition. Democracy dies in darkness has become one

828
00:43:31,039 --> 00:43:34,679
of the worst jokes in American history, that paper just

829
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:38,440
abandoning its role and holding the president to account. And

830
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,599
you know, Trump is nothing if not tenacious. And he

831
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,440
looks and he looks and he looks, and he found

832
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,920
this show that will not relent in calling him to account,

833
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,320
and so he wants to destroy it. What does he do?

834
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,320
He you know, has his his ally, Barry Wise, installed

835
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,840
in the head of CBS. Now we've talked a few

836
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,840
times about sixty Minutes in particular, and you know, these

837
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,559
stories were coming out although she was trying to stop

838
00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:07,599
that one or delayed or claim she had editorial suggestions.

839
00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:10,559
Speaker 1: I remember she said it was political. Now again, folks,

840
00:44:10,559 --> 00:44:14,159
this was about Seacott, that Gulag prison in El Salvador,

841
00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:17,920
where they're sending people in rendition flights without any due process,

842
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,559
where people are tortured. And Corey, I get it. The

843
00:44:20,559 --> 00:44:24,199
First Amendment protects journalists from government censorship. It does not

844
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:27,880
protect them from corporate executives who write their paychecks, who

845
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,440
are worried about political repercussions. I totally get it. It's

846
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,360
not government censorship. It's something we've talked about this more

847
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:39,599
like a stochastic self censorship. But when a news organization

848
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,760
pulls a story involving a politically sensitive subject because they

849
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:49,239
say it would be political, what questions should a population

850
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:49,920
be asking?

851
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. A fired reporter can't just

852
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,639
say my First Amendment rights were violated because I was

853
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,400
fired by CBS or the exactly my contract. That's definitely true.

854
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,480
But there is a First Amendment story here, which is

855
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,639
the use of the FCC to target Colbert and to

856
00:45:05,679 --> 00:45:10,880
target CBS, which then in turn is limiting and maybe

857
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,880
even firing and getting rid of its most hard hitting journalists.

858
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:19,000
So you know, it's a complicated First Amendment story, absolutely right.

859
00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:22,079
It's not as simple as that CBS is somehow violating

860
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,719
the First Amendment rights of journalists. But is the government

861
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,320
is all violating our rights by going after CBS.

862
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,519
Speaker 1: Absolutely, The CBS is a private company. They can run

863
00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:35,079
their newsroom however the hell they want. Constitutionally speaking, that

864
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,119
is the end of the discussion, right, I mean, they

865
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,119
there seem to be very committed is driving all of

866
00:45:40,159 --> 00:45:42,920
their viewers away from the CBS Evening News and sixty Minutes.

867
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,880
This is only going to hurt the ratings for these shows.

868
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,199
And you know, the new EP just said, well, broadcast

869
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,400
is like an ice cube melting anyway. So it seems

870
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,440
like they're just going to let the entire organization whether

871
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:55,280
and die on the vine. And maybe that's why Ellison

872
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:56,079
hired these people.

873
00:45:56,639 --> 00:45:58,880
Speaker 2: I'm not sure it's the end of the First Amendment story.

874
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,599
I mean, I think you know whether or not this

875
00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:02,519
is going to be successful in court, But you have

876
00:46:02,599 --> 00:46:05,480
the head of the FCC, you know, really saying that

877
00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:07,880
he doesn't want comedians criticizing Trump.

878
00:46:08,119 --> 00:46:11,519
Speaker 1: That's why sarcastic self censorship, That's why they're scaring the

879
00:46:11,559 --> 00:46:12,960
networks into doing it on their own.

880
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I'm torn about it. I

881
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,000
think I would call it in some ways, it's indirect,

882
00:46:18,039 --> 00:46:20,880
it's subtle, but there is a First Amendment violation, certainly

883
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,199
in a government agency like the FCC threatening networks to

884
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,840
not criticize the president. In some ways, it's almost the

885
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,039
paradigm of the First Amendment. The problem is, you know,

886
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:32,800
who brings the case, Where do you find it. It's

887
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,519
Brendan Carr who's doing a lot of the dirty work here,

888
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,679
and he's the culprit, he's the he's the state censor.

889
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,400
But if it's CBS and this is what you've been

890
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,480
saying and pointing out who's doing the firing, it gets

891
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,920
very thorny and who you sue. But I don't want

892
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:48,559
to lose say to the fact that, yes, the First

893
00:46:48,599 --> 00:46:51,599
Amendment is about government censorship and although this is indirect,

894
00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:54,400
you know that is ultimately what's going on here.

895
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:55,599
Speaker 1: So yeah, and I don't want to lose sight of

896
00:46:55,639 --> 00:46:57,400
the fact that you're right. But there, how do I

897
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,880
say this? There's still a there's there's a difference between

898
00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:06,199
legal rights and democratic responsibilities to society when it comes

899
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,920
to journalism and major news organizations, right, Like, I know

900
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,079
there's lots of examples through history where political leaders didn't

901
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:17,400
directly censor journalists but created incentives for media to avoid

902
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,719
certain stories. But Corey, what should we be watching for

903
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:25,119
over the next two years in the relationship between political

904
00:47:25,159 --> 00:47:28,639
power and major news organizations? I mean, what comes next?

905
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 2: You know this is a thorny story. I mean, part

906
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,679
of where the First Amendment challenge would come from is

907
00:47:33,679 --> 00:47:37,239
if CBS were to fulfill its obligation as a media

908
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,559
organization and stand up for itself, and they, for instance,

909
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:43,559
could sue the federal government could claim violation of their

910
00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:45,880
First Amendment rights. But what makes this so thorny, and

911
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,760
this is why we're getting into it, is that they've really,

912
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,679
you know, become part of the corporate oligarchy that by

913
00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:55,519
putting Barry Wise there, they've essentially given up. They've joined

914
00:47:55,559 --> 00:47:59,280
Team Trump, and so that destroys the First Amendment claim.

915
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,159
It's not like journalists have a First Amendment claim against

916
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,519
their weak bosses. And I think the real story here

917
00:48:05,559 --> 00:48:07,360
too is, you know, the same story that we saw

918
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,159
with the law firms, where they were not all of them,

919
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:13,119
but some of them were so quickly giving up when

920
00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:16,320
the President's read them. And you know, can those lawyers

921
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,639
have a First Amendment claim against their own law firms

922
00:48:18,679 --> 00:48:21,440
for giving up? No, the law firms had to fight back.

923
00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:24,320
Those firms that did fight back were winning in court

924
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,119
over and over again. And you know, I think CBS

925
00:48:27,159 --> 00:48:29,360
could have done that, they could have stood up for themselves.

926
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,760
But you know, it's more like bezos where they are

927
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,239
just bowing down before the King, and as great as

928
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:37,920
the victories have been and the heroes that we pointed

929
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,400
out have been, this week, this is a you know,

930
00:48:40,519 --> 00:48:41,519
a depressing story.

931
00:48:41,559 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: Well let me let me close out the show asking

932
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,679
you a lawyer's story, because I don't really understand how

933
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,840
you lawyers live your lives. I don't hang out in

934
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,840
your lawyer bars and you know your lawyer neighborhoods. But

935
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:56,760
something's going on with the legal profession and this White House, Corey.

936
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,880
If you go back to the end of twenty twenty four,

937
00:48:59,599 --> 00:49:03,119
one in five lawyers who were working for our government

938
00:49:03,159 --> 00:49:05,840
at the end of twenty twenty four have left as

939
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,360
of March. This is slowing down this particular president's agenda

940
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,199
quite a bit. But more than ten thousand lawyers have

941
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,880
left the federal government since Donald Trump took over in

942
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,679
twenty twenty five. Ten thousand lawyers have left the federal

943
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,920
service in less than a year and a half, Corey,

944
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,199
Why should we care about that number. We don't think

945
00:49:27,199 --> 00:49:29,559
about government lawyers very often in day to day life.

946
00:49:29,599 --> 00:49:31,760
What role do these people play in protecting our government?

947
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, people might have seen this story and sort of

948
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,639
the eyes glazed over, But I think it's so important,

949
00:49:36,639 --> 00:49:38,400
and it was you know, we've been talking about hope,

950
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,320
and sometimes we show joy on this podcast when people

951
00:49:41,559 --> 00:49:44,159
fight back and when we see the checks and balances

952
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:47,760
working people winning against this dictator. This is a subtle

953
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,280
story too, but it is a story of fighting back

954
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,719
because what law students are deciding. It was always when

955
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:55,760
I was in law school at Stanford Law School, if

956
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,079
you were getting a position either after graduating or a

957
00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:01,719
few years after graduate, the Department of Justice, wow, that

958
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,360
was like a golden position. You were doing something of

959
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,360
such a high integrity, high level. And that was true

960
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,880
whether it was the Republican administration or you know, George

961
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,639
Bush Junior was president. It didn't matter because.

962
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: Now it's like a degree from Liberty University. Right now it's.

963
00:50:18,159 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now you know what's happening. And this is

964
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,239
what's It's not just at top law schools, although that's

965
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,880
happening too. It also is at conservative law schools. So

966
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,480
if you look at the students, for instance, who were

967
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,679
interviewed by The New York Times in that story about

968
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:37,360
the exodus from the Department of Justice, it included George

969
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,719
Mason's law school. It's named after Justice Scalia and they

970
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,360
were saying, you know, I don't want to taint my

971
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,719
resume by being part of something that I know is dirty.

972
00:50:46,119 --> 00:50:49,039
And when you have conservative law students saying that, you know,

973
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:51,840
despite the prestige of the Department of Justice, it shows

974
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,360
you that the next generation is getting it, that they

975
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,440
are seeing that this isn't normal, that this is dangerous.

976
00:50:57,559 --> 00:51:00,480
And here's the best part that in the long run, right,

977
00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:02,760
it's going to taint your resume because this is going

978
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,199
to be seen as a sad, pathetic moment in American history.

979
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:09,159
So if you want hope, look at that indicator that

980
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,599
conservative law students are like, I don't want any part

981
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,599
of this administration. That's a great thing for democracy.

982
00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:17,639
Speaker 1: What a time to be in law school and watching

983
00:51:17,679 --> 00:51:20,320
all this plague out while you're taking your tests. I mean,

984
00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:24,400
we also should stress that career attorneys are necessary to

985
00:51:24,519 --> 00:51:28,320
maintaining stability in our government institutions. You talk about how

986
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,079
the largest number of these ten thousand quittings came from

987
00:51:31,079 --> 00:51:34,920
the Department of Justice. Like when you think about institutional

988
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:38,519
knowledge and what gets lost when ten thousand experienced lawyers

989
00:51:38,599 --> 00:51:41,639
walk out the door, I mean, can the government function

990
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:46,639
effectively if veter attorneys are replaced faster than agencies can

991
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,119
train new ones. I know there's no evidence that these

992
00:51:50,119 --> 00:51:52,679
ten thousand people left because they don't want to defend

993
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,480
something illegal, but I mean they certainly are slowing down

994
00:51:56,519 --> 00:51:58,199
the machinations of this government.

995
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: Well, I think that can only be a good thing,

996
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,199
because what this government is trying to do is destroy democracy,

997
00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:06,199
and you don't want lawyers that are signing up to

998
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,440
do that. And where are they going. They're going to

999
00:52:08,519 --> 00:52:11,320
the nonprofits that are fighting back. There is a story,

1000
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,440
for instance, about a government lawyer that left a job

1001
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:16,880
in which his job was to defend the EPA, to

1002
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,000
defend the Clean Air Act. And what did he do.

1003
00:52:19,039 --> 00:52:21,719
We went to a nonprofit that was suing to enforce

1004
00:52:22,079 --> 00:52:25,159
the Clean Air Act. Because the defenders of our laws

1005
00:52:25,199 --> 00:52:27,559
are no longer in the federal government, they've got to

1006
00:52:28,119 --> 00:52:31,440
pop up in the other centers of power, in the nonprofits,

1007
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:34,880
in the state's state attorney generals is another place where

1008
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,079
they're recruiting right out of the Department of Justice. So

1009
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,679
the tragedy is, yes, the federal government's going to have

1010
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,320
a hard time functioning, but in some ways that's a

1011
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,599
good thing. Exactly functioning in the way they want to do.

1012
00:52:46,679 --> 00:52:49,719
It is destroying democracy. We had pre Perarra, as you

1013
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,079
remember on the podcast, and an amazing discussion with him.

1014
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,119
And this is somebody who you know, was US attorney

1015
00:52:56,159 --> 00:52:58,199
in New York and played a huge role in the

1016
00:52:58,239 --> 00:52:59,920
Department of Justice. And he was like, it's not a

1017
00:53:00,039 --> 00:53:03,079
hard question anymore. Resign, don't be part of this. And

1018
00:53:03,119 --> 00:53:05,760
that's what these law students are doing. They see the

1019
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,400
danger implicit here.

1020
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:09,920
Speaker 1: That's what Thomas Masseew did. There are some people on

1021
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,559
the conservative side sane enough to realize how this thing

1022
00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:14,159
is going to play out, and it's not going to

1023
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,920
look good for them, which is exactly what happened last time. Corey.

1024
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:21,000
If you were teaching a constitutional law class using just

1025
00:53:21,039 --> 00:53:25,960
the last week's events, what lesson would you want your

1026
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,199
students to take away. I mean, it seems like it's

1027
00:53:28,199 --> 00:53:32,039
all about the importance of maintaining institutions that are willing

1028
00:53:32,079 --> 00:53:34,000
to tell powerful people no.

1029
00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:38,599
Speaker 2: Well, you know, every week we're engaged in a constitutional

1030
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:43,239
nightmare with all these hypotheticals that come up. Ten years ago,

1031
00:53:43,559 --> 00:53:45,320
I would have said, you know, it's too far fetched,

1032
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,440
not just for an episode of Scooby doo but for

1033
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,280
a logxam, Well, it's happening. But here's the good thing.

1034
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,679
Sometimes in the middle of a nightmare and you can

1035
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,239
engage in lucid dreaming, you can control the nightmare, you

1036
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,159
can rescue yourself, you can start to do things to

1037
00:53:58,199 --> 00:54:00,559
make things better. And that's what's happening. We're taking this

1038
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:03,199
nightmare and we're starting to win. And that's what this

1039
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,880
week has all been about. So what's the constitutional lesson

1040
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,880
of this week? That although the anti federalists were right

1041
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,039
about the dangers and they were underappreciated by those who

1042
00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:15,599
defended the Constitution, the framers did give us checks and

1043
00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:18,440
balances that work, and we're using them to great effect.

1044
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: Professor Bretschneier, it is a pleasure to do this show

1045
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,239
with you, especially in weeks like this where it looks

1046
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,559
like the resistance is starting to catch. What is the

1047
00:54:25,559 --> 00:54:28,239
best way for our listeners to follow you and keep

1048
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:30,480
up with your brilliance the other six days of the week.

1049
00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:33,239
And when are you coming back from Italy? By the way, Jesus,

1050
00:54:33,519 --> 00:54:36,039
you're turning into a merchant IVerd story. You're gonna fall

1051
00:54:36,119 --> 00:54:37,119
in love and never come back.

1052
00:54:37,159 --> 00:54:40,320
Speaker 2: I think that's why The Godfather has been on my mind.

1053
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,599
It's really in Tara Mina, and you know, not far

1054
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:47,880
from where Michael fled to when we left the United States.

1055
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: And who could forget.

1056
00:54:48,599 --> 00:54:52,199
Speaker 2: Out Marlon Brando. Yeah, it didn't go well for Apollonia,

1057
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,960
where Marlon Brando came back as the young Don Corleone

1058
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:59,360
to avenge his earlier wrong that was done to him

1059
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,199
and his family. So I'll be here for another week

1060
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,000
and then I'll be back, but I'll in the meantime

1061
00:55:04,119 --> 00:55:06,119
urge you all to subscribe to The Oath in the

1062
00:55:06,159 --> 00:55:09,119
Office to leave us reviews. They've really been coming in.

1063
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:12,320
This podcast is growing. It's such a phenomenal rate. We

1064
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,119
were number four last week on the Apple Government charts.

1065
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,719
So also tell your friends and you can find us

1066
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,800
too on substack The Oath in the Office substack if

1067
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,280
you want to watch us, we're on YouTube, and you know,

1068
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:25,800
thanks so much. I have to just say the listeners,

1069
00:55:26,199 --> 00:55:28,920
I am collecting your questions your mail if you want

1070
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,480
to email me at Corey dot bretschnein Er at gmail

1071
00:55:31,519 --> 00:55:34,519
dot com. We'll continue to take questions and respond to them.

1072
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,480
Thanks so much to the listeners for making the show

1073
00:55:37,559 --> 00:55:39,920
such is great success, and of course John, thanks to

1074
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:41,159
you for doing it every week.

1075
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Thank you Corey, and I want to thank all

1076
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:44,960
of our listeners as well, and I want to thank

1077
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:48,320
Wendy and Beowulf and everyone who helps put this monster together.

1078
00:55:48,519 --> 00:55:50,239
My name is John Fugel Sing. I host the evening

1079
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,440
programming on Sirius XM Progress Channel one twenty seven. If

1080
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,400
you don't have SiriusXM. We were also a free podcast

1081
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,800
called the John Fugal Saying Podcast. I am on substack

1082
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,519
because I am a carbon based and my book is

1083
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:04,880
called Separation of Church and Hate. Professor. Thank you for

1084
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,960
a week filled with so much good news, so much resistance,

1085
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,320
and so much reminder that the courts, the states and

1086
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,599
the citizens have not given up. It's really nice to

1087
00:56:14,599 --> 00:56:17,920
see it catching. I can't believe the incompetency. I can't

1088
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:19,719
believe they seem to want to fail this bad but

1089
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,079
I'm not going to get in their way and I

1090
00:56:21,119 --> 00:56:22,400
can't wait to see what comes next.

1091
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:24,159
Speaker 2: Thank you, John, what a pleasure.

1092
00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:26,639
Speaker 1: We'll see you guys next week on The Oath and

1093
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:28,559
the Office.