WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:06.960 Big Food and Beyond. 2 00:00:06.759 --> 00:00:08.320 With Cliff and Bobo. 3 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:12.439 These guys are your favorites, so like to subscribe and 4 00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:13.160 rade it. 5 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:20.760 I'm stuck s meat. 6 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:24.039 Just on USh today and listening, oh watching, always keep 7 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:24.879 its watching. 8 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:30.440 And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay. 9 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:32.719 Greetings, Bobo. What's happening Man? 10 00:00:33.240 --> 00:00:36.399 Oh not much, just down south sweating a little bit. 11 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:37.960 What are you doing down there? 12 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:40.520 I'll just hang up my mom for a few days. 13 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:43.439 Please send her my love. She's adorable. I love her 14 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:45.719 so much. Give her a big hug for Cliff if 15 00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:46.159 you could. 16 00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:47.240 Please will? 17 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:49.600 She loves her Cliffy too, who. 18 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:53.560 Doesn't Just everyone on Facebook? But besides that good everybody 19 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:54.920 likes Cliff people. 20 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:56.960 And some real people in person, non digital people. 21 00:00:57.359 --> 00:00:59.359 Oh yeah, like, well real people not bots, because I 22 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:03.240 remember forty sixty percent of all online accounts are robots. 23 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:05.480 So I feel I love it when people get into 24 00:01:05.640 --> 00:01:10.480 like philosophical or political arguments with robots. Anybody argues online 25 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:12.400 you got to kind of wonder about their metal stability. 26 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:15.159 But so no, a lot a lot of big foot 27 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:17.319 stuff happening, so cal I imagine, how are you gonna 28 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:20.439 be down there a couple more days, A couple more days. 29 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:24.200 Cool yeah, I create a flu home just now. She 30 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:25.840 was down here for like three days. 31 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:27.480 Cool well. 32 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:29.079 I was supposed to go to the Blues last week. 33 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:31.359 It didn't work out. My car's in the shop, actually 34 00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:32.959 still in the shop right now. I'm hoping to get 35 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:35.439 it back today because this weekend I have plans to 36 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:37.799 go up to the Olympic Peninsula. Derek and those guys 37 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:39.599 up at the Olympic Project they invited me up to 38 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:41.599 go hang out for a few days. But if I 39 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.840 can get my car back today, I may leave as 40 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:45.840 soon as tomorrow and go out there and hit a 41 00:01:45.879 --> 00:01:48.680 few of my favorite spots solo until I go meet 42 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:50.920 up with everybody, and then I got to come back 43 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:52.959 on Monday, I think. So I'll be out in the 44 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:54.799 woods for the next four or five days. If I 45 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.799 get my car back, we will see. We have a 46 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:00.280 guest today, maybe we should bring him on. And that's 47 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:01.640 his second appearance, I believe. 48 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:03.319 Yeah. 49 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:04.879 Third, So where have I been? 50 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:06.200 Fourth? Fourth? 51 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:09.719 Oh my god? No, no kidding, who you're You're You're 52 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:12.919 gonna rival Lyle Blackburn soon. For the number of appearances 53 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:14.439 on the on the shows, here. 54 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.960 Yeah, Mike can't count himself amongst the prolific Texans. 55 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:23.080 Now, nice, Yes, we must love our Texans for some reason. Yeah, 56 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.479 so we have Mike Mays on today's of course, he's 57 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:27.360 he wrote Valley the Apes, you know, the search for 58 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:30.360 SaaS quationnary X or whatever. The second byline of that is, 59 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:33.159 he's written The Shadow Cats Black Panthers in North America. 60 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:35.800 He does a Texas Bigfoot Hunter blog, and he's just 61 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:37.479 an all around cool guy and he's out in the 62 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:39.680 field of lots. We thought we'd have Mike back on. Mike, 63 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:41.879 thanks so much for coming back on with us for 64 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:44.439 who knows how many times to Bigfoot and beyond. We 65 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:45.000 appreciate you. 66 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:47.479 Well, call it three and a half. One time I 67 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.719 was on with Darryl Collier had had to split the glory, 68 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:52.039 so we'll call it three. 69 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:53.960 You were carrying the load on that one. We'll give 70 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:54.719 you credit for four. 71 00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:58.159 I appreciate that. 72 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:00.919 Well, Nice Sice. What would have you been up too lately? 73 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:03.000 Anything good going on in the field. I kind of 74 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:06.360 hope there is. Well, I myself have not been out 75 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.960 this summer. I have been locked up trying to finish 76 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:11.719 two different book projects. 77 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:16.680 I was successful with one, and I'm about ninety percent 78 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:19.719 done with the other. I just decided it was time 79 00:03:19.759 --> 00:03:23.919 to put my head down and actually finish these things. 80 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.840 Both of them are multi year efforts for various reasons. 81 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:31.599 And then this was also the summer. My wife is 82 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:34.759 a high school counselor and she just retired, so she's 83 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:39.080 had all kinds of retirement parties and celebrations and things 84 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.080 like that that I feel like I should be around for. 85 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:45.120 So I haven't actually gotten out in the field yet 86 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:49.319 this summer. I have managed to go on a couple 87 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:52.879 of speaking engagement kind of things, but as far as 88 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:56.039 the field goes here goes here in Texas, it's been 89 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:57.280 pretty quiet on my end. 90 00:03:57.560 --> 00:03:59.560 Well, summer's kind of gross in Texas, isn't it n 91 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:01.840 as high and humid and kind of nassy out there 92 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:03.520 and the thickets. I mean, did you do anything this 93 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:04.560 past winter or spring? 94 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:08.199 Well, I think the last real big trip I did 95 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:10.879 was was actually at the very startup last summer when 96 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.919 Darryl and I went out to New Mexico. I've done 97 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:18.160 some some more local things. I've I've you know, hiked 98 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:21.079 through the Sam Houston National Forest a couple times in 99 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:24.639 the fall and there's a small window of time where 100 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:27.759 the weather is tolerable and the deer hunters aren't out. 101 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.839 Nothing much happened. We I did get to go into 102 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:36.560 aria X with Darryl and and Matt and a couple 103 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:40.240 other guys came and joined us. Matt. That was That 104 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:44.000 was last summer as well, if I'm remembering correctly. And 105 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.720 it was fairly quiet there too. So as far as 106 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:52.600 any active field experiences for the last few months, not 107 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.040 much as has been going on, even when I did 108 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.199 manage to get out. And yes, it's it's pretty gross 109 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:00.800 here right now, but it's a it's down a lot, 110 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:03.519 it's it's a chilly ninety nine today. 111 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:07.759 Yeah, you're not selling Texas to me, very hard man. Well, 112 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.519 you know, it's a little bit like, you know, Montana. 113 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.519 It's easy to sell Montana in the summer. It's harder 114 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:17.240 to sell Montana in. 115 00:05:17.240 --> 00:05:20.360 You know, January and February, and Texas is kind of 116 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:25.120 the reverse of that. Come fall, come November, December, January, 117 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:29.120 Texas is an easy sell, but summer summer can be rough. 118 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:31.480 So it sounds like your heads mostly and in your 119 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:33.639 books right now, and your noses on the grindstone trying 120 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:36.839 to get these things done. Are either of these cryptid 121 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:38.000 related in some sort of way. 122 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:39.160 Yeah. 123 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:42.959 The one that's ninety percent done is a book that 124 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:49.959 I'm calling Secondhand Monsters. It's about lesser known, less publicized 125 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:55.399 cryptids and mythological creatures and legends and folklore and such 126 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:58.680 from not only North America but all around the world. 127 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:05.480 I broke North America into regions and did five creatures 128 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:08.959 legends from each of those regions, and then I've got 129 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:11.600 going to have five each from each of the other 130 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:16.959 continents minus Antarctica. And again, the whole idea was to 131 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.600 kind of highlight some of the stuff that most people 132 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:25.639 aren't going to be familiar with. You know, the people 133 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:30.560 like myself who are big cryptozoology nerds are going to 134 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:33.439 have heard of some of them. But I've made real 135 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:34.920 efforts to try. 136 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:40.920 To touch on things that haven't been written extensively about before. 137 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.839 Even if someone might have heard of this animal, this thing, 138 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:49.399 there hasn't been a whole lot written about it. I 139 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:52.480 didn't want to just duplicate, you know, someone else's work, 140 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:57.600 so it's just a longer effort. It's kind of each chapter, 141 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.600 each little section is its own little essay or vignette 142 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:03.160 about one. 143 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.680 Of these lesser known legends or animals. 144 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:08.480 Well, like what well, I just. 145 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:12.480 I've just started one. It has to do with the 146 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:17.040 sinking of a one hundred and fifty foot schooner in 147 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:20.199 the Bay of Bengal. This may not be right, so 148 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:22.120 forgive me if this isn't quite right. Off the top 149 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:24.120 of my head, I believe it was eighteen seventy four, 150 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:27.240 maybe even a few years earlier than that, by a 151 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:31.759 giant squit, you know, a real life cracking attack, and 152 00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:36.879 it was witnessed by another ship saw it take the 153 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:42.160 schooner down, And it's something that you know, most people 154 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:46.160 aren't aren't that familiar with the survivors. Oh yeah, there 155 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:50.279 were some survivors, and you know there were captains, you know, Sundent, 156 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:54.560 Captain KK, captain's logs, and you know it's documented that 157 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:57.959 had happened. So that's that's the latest one I just 158 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:02.680 started on. I just just finished up. I did a 159 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:06.199 chapter on a creature they call the killer of elephants 160 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:12.399 in Africa. I've done let's see various lake monsters Lake 161 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:16.800 Bacall and Russia just did a chapter on what they 162 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:22.680 call the silver swimmers of Lake Bacal, which are ten 163 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:26.399 foot long humanoid like what it sounds like swimmers that 164 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:30.720 were encountered by Russian Navy divers who were training. Lake 165 00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:34.440 Bacall for those who don't knows, in Siberia, and it 166 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:38.279 is thought to be the oldest lake on the planet 167 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:41.480 and also the deepest, so it makes it an ideal 168 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:46.320 spot for marine divers to practice at great depth. And 169 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:51.080 several men were killed during that incident, not directly by 170 00:08:51.159 --> 00:08:53.759 the creatures they witnessed, but they freaked out so bad 171 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:57.519 that they hurried too fast up from this great depth. 172 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:01.399 They all got the bends decompression sickness. And this took 173 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:06.080 place during Cold War years and the Russian Navy was 174 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:09.840 strapped for cash. Apparently they only had one decompression chamber 175 00:09:10.519 --> 00:09:13.039 ready to go, so three guys just laid there and 176 00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.840 died in agony after it was all over. 177 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:19.000 So you do that really happens. I've read all about that. 178 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:20.960 I wasn't sure what that was. 179 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:26.039 Well, you know, that's the beauty of it is, you 180 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.559 know some of these things. I think it's a fact 181 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:33.000 that there was some kind of incident, But you know, 182 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:36.120 you don't have to look in anything involves a government, 183 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:37.879 you don't have to look too much farther than our 184 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.039 own two. And this whole UAP thing that's going on, 185 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:44.960 and we're finding out how much has been hidden from us. 186 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.120 And I don't think there's any reason to believe that 187 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:51.519 the old Soviet Union was any better about letting their 188 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:56.559 dirty laundry out than we were. So I think it's 189 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:01.559 one of those deals that something happened. Was it exactly 190 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:06.440 what the mythology around it has come to describe, I 191 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:08.639 don't know, but it's a that's part of the fun 192 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:12.159 of the of doing the whole project. Some things are 193 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:14.279 are better documented than others. 194 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:18.200 But Russian files actually in this guy not got out 195 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:21.159 like official files that were real Like it's hard to 196 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:23.480 I know you probably don't speak or read Russian. 197 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:27.600 But right right, yeah, these were. There was a and 198 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:30.840 I make noted that there's a Russian He was a 199 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:34.679 scientist with the government who later became a big UAP guy, 200 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:42.159 and he has a shaky reputation. He has revealed some 201 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:46.159 things that are absolutely true, and some other things, at 202 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:48.519 least to this point, no one else seems to be 203 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:51.120 able to verify. So it depends on who you talk 204 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.840 to as to what this guy's reputation is. But you know, 205 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:56.960 it's it's a legend. That's the beauty of this kind 206 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.080 of book. It's about legends and folklore. 207 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:01.600 I expected you to sell these things, Mike. 208 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.320 Well, you know, of all the road trips I'd like 209 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:09.879 to make, I'm not sure Siberia is the number one 210 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:14.120 spot on my list. So, but you know, all actuality, 211 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.320 it's the lake. I got to know a little bit 212 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.039 about it. It's it's it's they call it the cold 213 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.840 or the Russian Galapagos, because it's just teeming with life. 214 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:29.320 And it's not what people think of when they think 215 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:33.679 of Siberia. They think of the frozen wasteland where the 216 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:37.480 Soviet unions sent their political prisoners to go rotten magulags 217 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:41.600 and so forth. And certainly there are spots in Siberia 218 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.080 like that, and the weather can be very, very harsh, 219 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:47.039 but this is a spot with a lot of life, 220 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.600 and it also has a it's supposed to have some 221 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:55.159 kind of lockedness style monster in it as well, and 222 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:59.440 it's also a hotbed for UFO stuffs. So the call 223 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:03.039 is a is a strange place. I'll just leave it 224 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:03.320 at that. 225 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:08.799 Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. 226 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:18.360 We'll be right back after these messages. So the report's 227 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:20.720 back closer to home though, because you know, you don't 228 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:22.279 have much of a chance to go to Siberia, as 229 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:24.600 you mentioned, but there are things that you can actually 230 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.039 do something about or maybe visit the locations. What are 231 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.279 some of the things, and maybe back home in your 232 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:31.720 state of Texas that you've been digging into a little 233 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.240 more deeply, like any more black cat reports popping up 234 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.559 or something that you've had a chance to go investigate. 235 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:42.600 Occasionally, something will pop up mostly and I'm sure you 236 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:47.120 guys see a lot of the same emails and instagrams 237 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:50.759 and things that I see. You know, some photo pops up, 238 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:53.320 you know, Uncle so and so took this on the 239 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.200 back forty you know in such and such Texas, and 240 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:00.720 you'll see that same email in that same photo with 241 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.919 ten different backstories to it. So you have no idea 242 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:08.000 where it really came from. That has happened. I'll get excited, 243 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:10.759 I'll see a picture and start reaching out to try 244 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:12.960 to get some more details, and then three more people 245 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:15.799 will send it in, each saying it was from a 246 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.840 different location from a friend's game camera that they personally know. 247 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:25.679 And it's frustrating because I really believe there's a possibility 248 00:13:25.720 --> 00:13:30.000 with some of them that the photo might be genuine. 249 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:33.759 Now it might have been taken on a game preserve 250 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:38.120 somewhere in Africa or Asia or something like that, or 251 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:44.000 Big Cat sanctuary, but the pictures often appear like they're genuine, 252 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:47.720 but the backs where you can't track any of them 253 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:51.720 down because you just don't know which rabbit to chase. 254 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:56.519 And that's the frustrating part of it. And I don't 255 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:01.240 know why that is so prevalent, but it is. Those 256 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:07.360 kinds of experiences, along with these same photos circulate on 257 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:10.120 a yearly basis. Or the picture I use for the 258 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:13.559 cover of the book. People will send that to me saying, hey, 259 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.600 look I took this, and I'm like, no, you didn't. 260 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.240 You No, no, you didn't because you know, and they 261 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:22.519 obviously haven't read the book because it's it's on the cover. 262 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:24.360 And I don't know. 263 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:25.320 Why people do that. 264 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:29.039 I do think often the people who send it to 265 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:32.879 me are the ones being duped by someone else, but 266 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:36.399 that happens all the time. But it's just it's very 267 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:39.840 difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in those instances. 268 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:42.679 One thing I was curious about that I don't think 269 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.440 we touched on the first time that we talked about 270 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.440 your book Shadowcats, and one of that. We cover a 271 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.519 lot of classic Sasquatch cases on the show and listeners 272 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:54.279 really love that. Obviously, you have things like Ruby Creek 273 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.519 and eight Kenyon and the William Row account in the 274 00:14:56.559 --> 00:15:00.679 albert osmind account. I was wondering, are there class cases 275 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:02.639 in the Black Panther record. I mean, I know there 276 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.360 is a historical record, but are there are there certain 277 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:08.879 ones that really captured people's attention or that had a 278 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:12.799 lot of subsequent information that you could track down big 279 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:14.840 historical cases in that realm. 280 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.200 Well, there's nothing that would rival the interest in those 281 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:25.000 Sasquatch related classics that you mentioned. There are instances where 282 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:28.279 I felt like there should have been more interests, There 283 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.399 should have been more attention from some kind of government agency. 284 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:34.960 The best example I could think of there was a 285 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:42.039 study done up in near Gwelph, Ontario, Canada, and there 286 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:46.600 were rumors of mountain lions, you know, being seen and 287 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:50.240 spotted by the locals, and of course the game and 288 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:52.679 fishing game, folks, I don't know, there's no you know, 289 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:55.399 there might be one coming through every now and then, 290 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.840 but it's just a passer through. It's not that we 291 00:15:57.879 --> 00:16:02.080 don't have a breeding population. Blah blah blah. So this 292 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.399 gentleman set out to have to do a study and 293 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:08.039 try to get to the bottom of whether or not 294 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:12.480 there were breeding populations of mountain lions in this area. 295 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:18.000 So a lot of trained observers of wildlife biologists. I 296 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.240 would equate it to They weren't all professionals, but I 297 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:25.080 would equate it to like when the audubn Society does 298 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:29.080 a bird count. These are dedicated bird watchers who are 299 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.799 out every weekend on their own. They know their birds 300 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:36.519 and so forth. These were people that were naturalists and 301 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:41.360 some of them were professional, but they knew what a 302 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:44.240 mountain lion looked like, and they knew what a mountain 303 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.639 lion didn't look like. And I forget how many accounts 304 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:53.679 there were, but there were a significant number of eye 305 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:59.080 witness in the field notes of the study where they 306 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:04.519 saw quote, black mountain lions end quote. There was one 307 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:10.519 game camera picture of a clearly a large, bulky black cat. 308 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:15.160 It's featured in the book, and it was featured on 309 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:18.440 the front page of the report that was ultimately produced 310 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.559 from this and it just says in the caption black 311 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.519 jaguar photographed outside Guelph, Ontario and the date, and then 312 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:30.359 that's all that's said about it. Nothing else is said. 313 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.079 Then they go on, you know, the study was, of 314 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:35.000 course to find out if there were mountain lions around. 315 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:37.920 They found out, hu, you know, there actually are. They 316 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:42.480 did not seem to want to stray outside of what 317 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:47.559 the mission statement of the study was about. And this 318 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:52.400 this strange, these visuals of these large black, long tailed 319 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.599 cats that aren't supposed to exist in North America, much 320 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.599 less a photograph of what the author of the study 321 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:04.759 him self labeled as a black jaguar in Canada. It 322 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:07.200 was mentioned and then but that was it and there 323 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.319 was no follow up whatsoever. Oh that's bizarre. 324 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.079 I guess the big difference maybe would be that since 325 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.680 we did have jaguars in the southern part of what's 326 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:18.599 now the United States for so long, I mean, I 327 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.799 guess there were still jaguars surviving in Appalachia just until 328 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.079 the eighteen hundreds, and even in some places supposedly like 329 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:28.400 the early nineteen hundreds, that it really wouldn't be as 330 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:32.279 strange or unusual to see big cats, and since jaguars 331 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.079 are melanistic, it wouldn't be as strange as you know, 332 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.839 apes or mountain devils or wildman or whatever. And so 333 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.480 maybe it's not that there are no historical quote unquote 334 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.960 classic cases, just because they were seen as frequently as 335 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.599 any other normal wildlife on the landscape. And it's only 336 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:52.359 now that it seems mysterious that people see black cats, 337 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.319 maybe within the last half of the twentieth century, early 338 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:57.920 part of the twenty first century, that it's quote unquote 339 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.680 strange or unusual or anomalists. 340 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.279 Yeah, and I've got it now in front of me. 341 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:09.759 The study was conducted by a gentleman named Rick Rosotte Rosatte, 342 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:12.240 you can look it up. It was a photo in 343 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.799 question that I've been discussing, was taken outside of Guelph, Ontario, 344 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:20.000 in April of twenty ten, and it was identified simply 345 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:24.680 as a black jaguar, and not much else was said 346 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:27.000 about it in the report itself. It does mention there 347 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:31.680 were multiple sightings of black mountain lions or large black cats, 348 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:34.680 but that's about as far as it goes back to 349 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:38.839 your point, Matt, depending on where you are, you're correct 350 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:45.359 in that the black cat phenomenon is not considered anything 351 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:51.000 particularly unusual in some places. Back close to where I 352 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.920 grew up in East Texas, the Piney Woods area of 353 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:59.000 East Texas near Big Thicket Country, a black panther was 354 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.799 nothing that was. It certainly wasn't common. You didn't people 355 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:06.359 didn't claim to see them all the time every day 356 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:08.880 or anything like that. But it wasn't that unusual either, 357 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:12.079 and no one seemed to really bad an eye about 358 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.400 it whenever one was brought up. And of course they 359 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:17.680 get blamed for every weird noise in the woods. Oh 360 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.559 that's a panther screaming, you know, howling whatever, And that's 361 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.720 just the way it was. And down in my part 362 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:27.960 of the world, if you get ten twelve people in 363 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:32.440 a room, somebody in there will say that they've seen one, 364 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:36.039 or know somebody has someone in their family who's seen one. 365 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:41.160 It's a much more prevalent thing than a sasquatch sighting. 366 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:41.480 Is. 367 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.000 People that will laugh in your face about a bigfoot 368 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.400 sighting will they'll fight you if you try to tell 369 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:52.200 them there's no such thing as a black panther because 370 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:54.480 you know, they know what they saw, or my grandpa 371 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.240 wouldn't lie, you know, the whole range of things. So 372 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.119 it's in some places it's just embedded in the culture. 373 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:03.440 Is just another animal that lives out in the woods, 374 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.759 and so yeah, it's not considered anything that would be 375 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:10.200 a big deal per se. I would think though, as 376 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:18.079 far north as Canada and with a scientific study with 377 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:24.119 wildlife biologists running it, they should know that, hey, that's 378 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:28.160 not supposed to be here and that would warrant further investigation. 379 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.279 But it just doesn't seem to have done. So I 380 00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:33.799 guess the parameters of a grant or such you have. 381 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:35.920 You know, they're giving you some money to do this, 382 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:39.000 but it's to do a specific thing and that thing only, 383 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:41.759 and maybe there was no money to follow up on it. 384 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:42.319 I don't know. 385 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:45.480 Yeah, I mean it seems so plausible. We were just 386 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.039 talking about this on a member's episode recently, so these 387 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:51.440 this group, you know, our main listenership hasn't heard this conversation. 388 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.799 But we were just talking about a video essay that 389 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:56.680 was done by I think it was Luke Caverns, and 390 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.039 I'll post a link to that in the show. Not 391 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:01.599 it's been talking about the survival of the American jaguar, 392 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:05.119 which was historically referred to as the American tiger t 393 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:07.400 y g R. And so there's a lot of these 394 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:11.200 old references, but that you know, you see jaguars reflected 395 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:16.920 in all sorts of expedition logs and correspondences and media 396 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.519 articles going back from the you know, seventeen hundreds clear 397 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:22.440 through to the early nineteen hundreds. And I know that 398 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:24.640 some of those jaguars, I think some of the later 399 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:28.079 ones even collected, were up in Ohio. And you think, well, 400 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:30.480 just on the other side of the lake there, on 401 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:32.920