WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:09.519 Monster House presents. 2 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:13.640 Terrible Tragedy Next Sunday Murder was just the first step. 3 00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.199 Who killed Laura bon Now the curtain's open again. From 4 00:00:17.239 --> 00:00:23.000 the start, you can follow the trail of clues, of crimes, 5 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:24.239 of cheating hearts. 6 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:27.239 Can't let me in on whatever the hell is going on. 7 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:29.039 Here, Sheriff. We've had a lot to talk about. 8 00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:32.240 For the first peak or the second exposure in You. 9 00:00:32.439 --> 00:00:36.000 Spot the Killer, everyone will be talking about it. 10 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:44.399 It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 11 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:51.960 A giant, hairy creature in Part A Part Matt in Larkness, 12 00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:54.359 a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the 13 00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:57.880 Highlands of Scotland, if the creature known as the Luckness Monster. 14 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:21.239 Monster Talk. 15 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:26.799 Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm 16 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:28.000 Blake Smith. 17 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:29.120 And I'm Karen Stolsner. 18 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:31.200 It's been a while since we've had on author and 19 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:33.760 researcher Jerry Drake, but he's back, so check the show 20 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:36.159 notes for links to previous visits where we talked about 21 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:38.840 ghost lides and grimoires and all sorts of fun stuff. 22 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:43.040 But today we're going to be talking about murder. Specifically, 23 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:46.079 we're going to be talking about Jerry's new book, Hazel 24 00:01:46.200 --> 00:01:50.000 was a good girl solving the murder that inspired Twin Peaks. So, 25 00:01:50.040 --> 00:01:52.519 if you're a true crime fan, or a Twin Peaks fan, 26 00:01:53.159 --> 00:01:55.519 or a Monster Talk fan who occasionally dips their toes 27 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:58.079 into either, you're going to enjoy this interview and you'll 28 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:02.640 doubtless enjoy Jerry's book with David Lynch is passing earlier 29 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.680 this year. It's a little bittersweet to be talking about 30 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.879 Twin Peaks, but it's definitely a bit of American culture 31 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.479 that changed the way we watch television and what we 32 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:14.800 come to expect from a series. Americas were glued to 33 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:18.159 their sets wondering who had killed Laura Palmer and finding 34 00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:21.599 out the answer only made things weirder. So grab your 35 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:24.960 log Hydra Diary, and get a cup of damn fine 36 00:02:24.960 --> 00:02:28.280 coffee and let's get to some morangetutor. 37 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:33.479 So, Jerry, we've invited you want to talk about your 38 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:35.719 forthcoming book. It's going to come out in about a 39 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.280 month now, I believe, June tenth. June tenth. Yeah, So 40 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:42.560 Hazel was a good girl solving the murder that inspired 41 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:46.159 Twin Peaks. So, yeah, you've been talking about this with 42 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:49.120 us for quite some times. It's really exciting that you've 43 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.039 gotten to this stage. And yeah, we want to hear 44 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:56.719 about how you became interested or rather drawn into, as 45 00:02:56.759 --> 00:02:58.479 you've said, the case of Hazel drew. 46 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:04.199 You know, I it's interesting Hazel. Hazel was the girl 47 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:10.439 that inspired Mark Frost to write the original screenplay for 48 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:14.479 Twin Peaks. Everybody knows David Lynch, but what fans of 49 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:16.280 that show didn't realize is that Mark Frost is the 50 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:20.719 guy that actually wrote most of the canonical episodes, the 51 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:22.680 ones that he and Lynch wrote worked on, and he 52 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.919 also wrote the sideline war material. There are a couple 53 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.240 of books that came out in conjunction with Twin Peaks 54 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:32.919 to Return, which I think today might be the eighth 55 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:36.960 anniversary of that show premiering. So Mark Frost is really 56 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:42.080 the guy who who was behind the story of Twin Peaks, 57 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:45.039 with Lynch being the tour that put it on screen 58 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:47.639 and then kind of modified it. You know, his process 59 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:51.120 is to film what he films and it happens. You know, 60 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.479 he invented the character of Killer Bob because of a 61 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:56.719 shot that went wrong, and all this stuff like it's 62 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:58.599 there's you could write a whole book about Twin Peaks, 63 00:03:58.639 --> 00:03:59.960 and there's probably a bunch out there. 64 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:01.639 But at the heart of it. 65 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:04.599 In upstate New York, there's a town called Troy that's 66 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.080 immediately it's on the east side of the Hudson across 67 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:10.039 from Albany, which is the capital, and it sits at 68 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.919 the bottom of the Taconic Mountains. There's a big hill 69 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.759 in the middle of Troy, which they unimaginably called the 70 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.879 Hill and on top of his polytechnic University, and Rensler 71 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:25.480 is the oldest polytechnic in the world. It was founded 72 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.279 by one of the descendants of Killian van Rensseler, who 73 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:34.160 was the last great patroon of Old New York. When 74 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:36.800 you study New York history, he's the last land baron 75 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:40.399 in the area. He was on the Dutchyst India Company 76 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:43.079 board and was a pearl merchant and had a million 77 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:47.399 acres of land. And there's a little piece of land 78 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:52.360 called Slider's Corners near a place called Sand Lake where 79 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:56.480 this girl was found face down in a little mill 80 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.920 pond about seven days after she was killed in July 81 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.079 of nineteen oh eight. Her name was Hazel Drew and 82 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:07.920 her murder for some reason became international news for that month. 83 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:11.399 It was twenty three days. It was in all the 84 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:15.000 major papers, even in the German and Australian press later 85 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:19.120 that August, all around the world. And it followed up 86 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:22.560 on probably one of the most famous solved murders in 87 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:26.759 American history, which was the death of Billy Brown, who 88 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:30.920 was killed by Chester Gillette. In fact, Chester was executed 89 00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.839 by Edison's electric chair right about the time Hazel's body 90 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:37.120 was being found, and so a lot of people thought 91 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:39.800 this was going to be the next big pretty white 92 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:44.279 girl murder. And they sent a guy up from New 93 00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:50.800 York names named Clements. Will Clements, who styled himself as 94 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:54.560 the Srilock Holmes of America. He was very modest, and 95 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:58.519 he claimed all these outrageous things, and there's a little 96 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:00.639 there's a couple chapters about Clemens the book where he 97 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.560 kind of makes himself out to be this great criminologist 98 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:04.959 and he solves the murder. 99 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:05.480 He didn't. 100 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:09.480 He got sued actually for libel and lost his suspects 101 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:12.839 suited him for libel, and he invented really the character 102 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.680 of Laura Palmer with that story. A wrong woman living 103 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.160 a double life who got killed by a lover. It 104 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:21.000 turns out none of that stuff was true, and that's 105 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:24.680 what really got me interested in the story is that, 106 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:27.240 you know, I'm I mean, at the end of the day, 107 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.319 you know, my professional area of study is nineteenth century 108 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.319 history and labor history. I mean, that's what I did 109 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:36.240 all my work in college on you know, long before 110 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.480 when I was ever in the government. You know, that's 111 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:40.399 what I was primarily interested in. So I was like, well, 112 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:43.680 you know, I'm fascinated by Troy, a factory town. You know, 113 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:45.720 this is giving me something to really read about. And 114 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:50.000 you know, I was in bed COVID hadn't happen yet. 115 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.879 I had the flu in a friend of mine who 116 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.920 was moving to Troy. There publishers. In fact, you know, 117 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.240 full disclosure that the people that are publishing this book. 118 00:06:57.319 --> 00:06:59.240 I decided to let them have it since they were 119 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.319 involved in the in the adventure. They were moving from 120 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:04.560 New Hampshire to Troy to kind of set up their business, 121 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:08.480 you know, business blowing up blah blah blah. And my 122 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:13.800 friend texted me and said something about this dream that 123 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.480 she had about finding this book in a cafe or 124 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:19.480 a library. We tell the story in there, and it 125 00:07:20.079 --> 00:07:25.000 was called the absence of memory, and I, while suffering from. 126 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:27.160 A fever, dreamed about the same book. 127 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:28.360 And I opened it up, and in the front of 128 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:31.279 the book, you know, on a stack of Bibles of 129 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:33.920 atheist I'll swear on a stack of Bibles. But I 130 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:36.879 saw this person's name, Hazel, I drew in the dream, 131 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:38.720 and I wrote it down and I texted it to 132 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:43.279 my friend and it turned out she's a real person, 133 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:46.639 and she was murdered and the girl who inspired Twin Peaks. 134 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.040 Now I will quickly put on my skeptics hat and say, 135 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:51.560 you know, I watched Twin Peaks in high school, and 136 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.720 I watched the return, and it's entirely possible. 137 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:56.879 I knew all that right, And I was triggered. 138 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.879 My subconscious was triggered by my friend moving to this 139 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:02.560 town that I already had an interest in. You know, 140 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.680 I would love to teach at Rensseler whenever I retire 141 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:06.800 rentally or as they pronounce it. So I probably already 142 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:08.959 knew all this stuff. But that's how I got interested 143 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.079 in the story. It's great story, So I told the 144 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:12.000 story as it happened. 145 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.079 That's a good story. 146 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:16.120 That kind of experience, though, even even if you have 147 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.240 an explanation for it. It's still it still feels liminal. 148 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:21.600 You still feel the weirdest. 149 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:23.839 The whole thing is, the whole thing is liminal. And 150 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:26.279 I put my tongue right right deep in my cheek 151 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.000 and rode with it because it's a great story. You know, 152 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:33.360 sometimes you see Bigfoot and sometimes Bigfoot sees you, right. 153 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:42.879 So I started digging into it. 154 00:08:42.919 --> 00:08:44.600 And then COVID at my friend and I were down 155 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:47.399 in San Antonio for AWP. 156 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:51.120 I was thinking about doing something on some stuff. 157 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.480 We talked about, you know, doing a casebook of you know, 158 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:55.799 all the cases I'd worked on and something fun like that, 159 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:59.120 and we really started talking about Hazel and she's like, to. 160 00:08:59.080 --> 00:08:59.879 You want to dig into this? 161 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:03.600 And then we were in San Antonio when COVID lockdown started. 162 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:06.159 In fact, I got the last flat out of town 163 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:09.879 I could get back to DC before the lockdown happened. 164 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:13.600 And I was like, I'm working on it and I 165 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:15.679 was interested in And then I got COVID and I 166 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.879 was home for two three weeks and they never let 167 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.399 me come back to work. We had shut down, so 168 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:23.759 I was in my house teleworking all day. I was 169 00:09:23.799 --> 00:09:26.399 locked in this smaller house a small, you know, little 170 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:29.200 bitty row house in York, Pennsylvania, with all my occult 171 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.720 books waiting on Blake Smith that ask me to send 172 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:33.759 him a book so i'd have something to do, right, 173 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:39.000 you know, and you know that kind of thing. And 174 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:40.480 I was like, well, I'm just going to dig into this. 175 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:43.399 I've got ancestry, I've got newspapers, dot com. I'm going 176 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:44.679 to dig into it. And the more and more I 177 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:47.120 dug into it, the more clues I found that other 178 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:49.799 people who had looked into it hadn't found. And then 179 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.559 whenever I got stir crazy, you know, I realized my 180 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:55.320 friend and I were the last people who had had 181 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:56.879 sort of public contact with each other. 182 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:58.559 So we arranged a visit. 183 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.600 I booked time at the libraries, you know, went in 184 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.200 and kind of under you know, Cloak and Dagger was 185 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.679 able to get some time research time in the libraries. 186 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:09.480 They were just as bored as I was, so they 187 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:11.440 gave me full run of the New York State Library 188 00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:14.399 and you know, the Troy Public Library, that kind of stuff. 189 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:15.679 And by the end of. 190 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:18.440 It, you know, I not only had a person who 191 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.679 I think is the suspect, and some new clues. You know, 192 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.519 even if my guy didn't do it. The fact that 193 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:29.600 he was so heavily looked over and such an obvious suspect, 194 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:32.279 you know, means that there was there was more going 195 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:35.799 on than than what people at the time seem to 196 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:38.679 let on. So, you know, I think a person in 197 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.399 her home did it, a person who was obviously a 198 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:43.799 very likely suspect, like the police, This would be the 199 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:46.000 first person police would investigate today. And the fact this 200 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:52.120 guy was ignored satistically, statistically makes no sense unless you 201 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:54.360 explore the political connections and things like that that I 202 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:55.240 lay out in the book. 203 00:10:55.879 --> 00:11:01.360 First of all, it's in talking about Mark Fraut. You 204 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.480 reminded me that like Mark Frost, super influential on Twin Peaks, 205 00:11:06.039 --> 00:11:09.159 Mark Snow did the music for the X Files. 206 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:10.639 Yeah, I was like, what's up with. 207 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:14.559 These cold marks? I don't know, man, a little weird, right, Yeah. 208 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.399 You know, And I mean, I mean, you remember that time, 209 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:19.799 like Twin Peaks and the X Files. Oh my god, 210 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:21.600 that was the best time to be. 211 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:24.279 All I have such you know, as you talk about 212 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:25.960 in the book, you went to a bowling alley to 213 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:28.679 watch this, and I had to go to my best 214 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:31.360 friend Mike's house because my parents were, it was all 215 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:36.399 shut down for me. And so his mom has passed away, 216 00:11:36.440 --> 00:11:38.840 but she was such a glorious influence on me and 217 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.200 I just I loved the fact she'd let us watch 218 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:44.600 these shows, and she loves talking about Twin Peaks, and 219 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:47.279 she wasn't as into the X Files, but she loved 220 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:48.919 the fact that we got to hang out and talk 221 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.679 about it together. It was great, but not quite a 222 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:55.200 serious question, but at what point during this research did 223 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:57.200 you realize you had become a hazel nut? 224 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.039 I mean tonight, this was the first time I've heard 225 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.279 that joke. And you know, I'll do this that it's 226 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:10.320 it's it's it's going in something. I mean, yeah, it's 227 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:11.960 going on a website when we get it fired. 228 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:12.440 All right. 229 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:16.039 Here's my serious question though, So part of this this case, 230 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:18.440 you know, and you would have to do this narratively 231 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.879 anyway to tell a story, but I think you make 232 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:23.080 the point that it matters a little bit more in 233 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:26.799 this case. The setting, Yeah, the where it happened, the 234 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:31.200 when it happened, These factors matter in your investigation. Can 235 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.159 you talk a little bit about when the story took 236 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:35.240 place and where and what was going on there at 237 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:35.600 the time. 238 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:39.080 So it's it's nineteen oh eight, it's upstate New York. 239 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.159 New York is in a you know, we think of 240 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:44.799 New York as this you know kind of you know, 241 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:47.919 the number one population in that area today or of 242 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:51.600 Italian descent. At that time, it was primarily Irish Methodists 243 00:12:51.759 --> 00:12:54.519 that control the politics of the area, and New York 244 00:12:54.639 --> 00:13:01.360 was transitioning from the old Lincoln Republican part to the 245 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:06.679 new Theodore Roosevelt Republican Party, the Progressive Party, and the 246 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:12.120 political machine was shifting in that area from a kind 247 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:18.679 of corrupt machine politician politics to Theodore Roosevelt's more clean 248 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.279 cut progressive politics and what would eventually become the Democratic 249 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:25.480 Party under Franklin Roosevelt a few years later. There was 250 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:31.519 also a shift in local hegemony. The Irish aristocrats that 251 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:34.039 ruled the area and controlled all the political offices in 252 00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:37.559 upstate were being starting to be pushed out by an 253 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:40.679 incoming Italian population that we're moving up from New York. 254 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:43.879 So it's a hegemonic shift. The middle classes, we knew 255 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.120 it didn't exist then, but Hazel would be considered a 256 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:51.120 part of the professional middle class at that time. She 257 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:57.200 was a governess and a live in housekeeper in the 258 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.159 wealthiest homes in Troy, New York, and all of her 259 00:14:00.200 --> 00:14:07.600 bosses were politically connected to this Irish Methodist Republican political machine. 260 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.840 And her aunt had worked in some of the wealthiest 261 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:14.320 houses and at the hotel where all these guys kind 262 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.519 of hung out sort of gangster style, and probably got 263 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:19.600 her her jobs. So she was not a scullery maid 264 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:22.759 or somebody doing, you know, scrubbing out shoes. She was 265 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.840 a young, you know, good looking lady, twenty years old 266 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:29.480 when she died. She'd been working in these houses since 267 00:14:29.480 --> 00:14:32.720 she was fourteen. She was literate, very literate. In fact, 268 00:14:32.759 --> 00:14:35.559 she read a lot, She wore glasses, she took care 269 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.080 of her teeth, she had had some advanced dental surgery. 270 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.879 Her parents lived in a big house on Fourth Street, 271 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.279 even though they were working class people. So these were 272 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:47.679 you know, these were not four people. They were not 273 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:51.399 disadvantaged people, but they were, you know, members of the 274 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:55.399 local establishment. Her aunt marries into this political elite after 275 00:14:55.879 --> 00:15:00.440 Hazelis is killed and leaves the legacy behind. So they're 276 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.519 what we would consider today sort of like the equivalent 277 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.679 of a of an oiled field services worker in Houston. 278 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:10.120 You know, somebody who's got a high school education but 279 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.080 makes a you know, a low six figure salary by 280 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:14.639 having a specialized job. 281 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:15.840 You know, that's my family, right. 282 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.159 You know, none went to school, but they all made 283 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:21.360 a damn good living laying pipe and working in the 284 00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:24.879 oil fields. That's what Hazel was. So when she got killed, 285 00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:27.440 I mean, this was killing one of the local elite. 286 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:30.360 There were a lot of murders that year, but they 287 00:15:30.399 --> 00:15:35.639 weren't pretty white Irish Methodist girls, so the city got 288 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.639 nervous about it. Also, She's found killed about eight miles 289 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.840 from her house out at Teal Pond, on the land 290 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:47.159 of a guy named Farmer Conrad Teal. They called him Coonteal. 291 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:51.039 He was a local descendant of the of the Dutch 292 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:54.120 aristocrats that lived there. I believe the farm is still 293 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:57.519 in the family down to this present day. And it 294 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.440 was right across the street from where her uncle, William Taylor, 295 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.519 her mother's brother, was living. So Hazel spent her last 296 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:10.080 sort of dollar two three dollars after she was fired 297 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:13.879 or left or quit her employer's house a guy named 298 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.639 Professor Carey, who was a teacher at Renseleer, an engineering 299 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.519 professor there. She leaves his home and is found dead 300 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.200 a week later in this pond across the street from 301 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:29.240 her from her uncle's house. Some witnesses had seen her 302 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.440 at the local train station. She said she was going 303 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:36.279 down to New York or down the river, which meant 304 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:36.879 New York. 305 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:37.360 In those days. 306 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.399 She may have gone to Albany. I think she stayed 307 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:42.519 on a riverboat. I found some evidence that she may 308 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:44.600 have spent the night on a riverboat, which would have 309 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:46.360 been a way that a woman could travel in those 310 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:48.399 days without having to have a chaperone to book her 311 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.440 into a hotel. She's found dead. There's no public transportation 312 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:54.919 to get you right up to that pond. Anybody that 313 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.720 did the murder would have had to have been seen, 314 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:00.799 or they would have had have known the area and 315 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.039 been able to sneak in an automobile. There were a 316 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.880 lot of people traveling that area that night. So a 317 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.039 huge chunk of the book is an attempt to set 318 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:13.519 the stage and to meticulously recreate all that witness testimony. 319 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:15.160 And a few people have looked into this case. I'm 320 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:16.960 the only one that's ever done that like that just 321 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:19.759 took that took over a year to do, to go 322 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.480 through all those hundreds of newspaper articles and go, oh, 323 00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:25.519 this person said they were here at this time and 324 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.799 the moon set at this time, you know, and this 325 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:29.480 person said they saw that person. 326 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:31.200 So we reconstruct that timeline. 327 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:34.119 My wife helped me do that, you know, sitting around 328 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.119 the kitchen table, you know, to find out exactly how 329 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.960 the movements up and down that road happened that night. 330 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.519 It's cool, though, that's good detective work. Yeah, I mean, oh, 331 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.279 it's really good work. Yeah. 332 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:53.279 I mean, that's how you saw the case like this, 333 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.079 and it just took a lot of work. But I 334 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.319 think it eliminated some of the other suspects from them 335 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:00.480 because it's somebody that had to be in an audio mobile. 336 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:05.799 Tire tracks were witnessed. Cars of Henry Ford's model T 337 00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:08.079 doesn't come onto the market until November of that year. 338 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.680 This is July, so cars were still rich people's stuff 339 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:13.440 in New York at those days. So it really gives 340 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.079 us an understanding of who the suspects would be. 341 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.079 Well, I just want to go back to an earlier 342 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.079 part of the book, paranormal lack experiences that you had 343 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.279 that you wrote about in this book, and you've already 344 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:28.079 spoken about the dreams, but your cemetary experience. I think 345 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.440 that that was really fun the way you document that 346 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:31.880 as part of your hands on research. 347 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.000 So you know that was not any original draft of 348 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:37.000 the book. I didn't put it in there because I 349 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:41.640 didn't want to seem crazy. And I took photos. Hazel 350 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:47.279 took photos after it happened, and I thought about it 351 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:49.440 and I thought about it, and I wrote the original 352 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.079 draft of the book. I think that story doesn't get 353 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:54.799 in until about draft five or six. The original book 354 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.319 was one hundred and sixty thousand words long. So all 355 00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:02.920 that came out, and in a cold winter day here 356 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.240 in New in DC, right before. 357 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:08.519 Would you say, a crosty days mark. 358 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.440 Trusty day with a lot of the with a lot 359 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.799 of this stuff going, she called me up and said, 360 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.200 you gotta, you gotta put the cemetery story back in there. 361 00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:20.079 You gotta do it. People want to read it. It happened, 362 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:22.039 It's interesting, so put it in there. So I put 363 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:24.119 it in and it did happen to heaven. Just liked 364 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:29.559 that it was cold. It was impossibly cold, and I 365 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:31.680 had on some north faced boots that I had not 366 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:33.920 taken out of the closet in years, and they fell apart, 367 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.519 so my feet were wet. And we went up to 368 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.759 that weird old tree and she was freaking out and 369 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:41.599 there's no there's about a foot snow on the ground, 370 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.480 there's no snow under the tree. She was acting tweakerl word. 371 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.759 Puts her hand on this tree and starts freaking out. 372 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:49.920 And I put my hand on that damn tree, and 373 00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:52.559 again this could be you know, I I know I 374 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:54.519 don't have a cardiac problem because I've gone to the 375 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.519 cardiologist since then, and my vegetarian diets served me well. 376 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.240 But I got sick. I got violently said. I went 377 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:04.400 down that hill. I thought I was having a heart attack. 378 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:06.119 I thought I would not be able to drive my 379 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.720 car back. I got one of those weird BMW's that 380 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.119 you have to have magic powers to drive. So I'm like, 381 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.240 my friend's not gonna be able to drive us out here. 382 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.599 We're gonna die out here in a snowstorm. And I 383 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.720 threw up and it fell on the ground and we 384 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:22.200 were out looking for Hazel's grave. We couldn't find it. 385 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:23.799 It was too cold. It was stupid for us to 386 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.599 even try to go out there in the snow because 387 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.319 it's bone white and the snow is bone white, and 388 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:31.039 I fell over. I fell on the ground, and when 389 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:32.960 I stood up and looked down, I was on top 390 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.440 of her tombstone. And it happened exactly like that. You 391 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.920 can even see in the pictures, my stumbling feet coming 392 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:44.519 down the hill, and instead of going straight to my 393 00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.000 car where I was headed, I took a right lost 394 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.039 my balance, went down on the ground, beat full of 395 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.599 snow and muck, and looked up and I see on 396 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:57.680 top of this grave, it says Hazel. And I'm like, 397 00:20:57.720 --> 00:20:58.759 oh man, you found it. 398 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.240 I'm glad you said that. We've had you know, we 399 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.960 get iTunes reviews and some of them were some of them, 400 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:07.039 some of them are awesome. There's lots of great five 401 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:10.440