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Speaker 1: Argue he was. I said, the position that he outlines

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is the same as the dogmatic position of Rome. I know,

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I studied Thomas for a long time. I know that

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he's not dogma. He is, however, the official philosophy of

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the Roman Catholic Church, although since Vatican Two, do we

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even know if that's still true? I don't know. We

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don't even know, because they tolerate all kinds of theologians

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who reject Thomas. So again, but what we're gonna what

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we're gonna start with is the question of the Ecomunical Council. Certainty.

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We're gonna be talking about epistemology today, and that's why

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it's a specific, unique talk about epistemology and not just

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about the papal claims and the Church Fathers. You see,

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the papal claims in the Church Fathers requires giant explanations

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because of the fact that they're almost always taken out

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of their context. They're copied and pasted from Catholic answers pages,

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and they don't take into account the context. For example,

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when you're an as in against Heresies makes this famous

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quote about out the church at Rome, you know, the

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Catholic answer stuff. They'll like, quote the paragraph just about

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the Church at Rome, and they don't finish the rest

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of the quote where he says why the Church of

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Rome matters. Does he say that it's an infallible charism

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given to Peter alone? Absolutely not. He says the Orthodox

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position that Rome is pre eminent because it was doubly

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apostolic because of Peter and Paul. You see, because Peter

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set up churches in other places, like the Church at Antioch,

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and nobody believes the Church of Antioch has a patrine

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supremacy because Peter ordaned the bishop there. Right now, the

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Roman Catholics are aware of this, many of some of them,

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some of not many, some of them, and they come

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up with infinite mental gymnastics. And we're going to that

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requires its own specific talk. We will eventually do that

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where we get through the specific papal claims, you know,

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from this father, this father, this father, and all the

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way up through to the split of the Eighth Council.

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And we're going to and the split is over the

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Eighth Council because actually, guess what, John the eighth pup

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John the Eighth signed the Orthodox Council. The Orthodox eighth

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Council forbidding the Filioqui. Many Roman Catholics, by the way,

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who figured that out, they convert. Now most people again,

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there's always an infinite series of mental genetics. They're like

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award winning I know because I used to do it.

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They are award winning Olympic mental gymnasts. Uh, and it

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never ends, and it's just a spiraling spiral, spiral of circularity. Now,

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let's talk about epistemic claims certainty in the Paopal issue

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and how ultimately it does relate to created grace, because

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this is going to revolve around a question of whether

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the individuals in the church can know truth. Now, ironically,

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Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestants all in some way will

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admit that individuals in the church can have certitude and

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know the truth. The means by which we have that certitude,

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the means by which we can know these things is

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where there comes to disagreement. So what we're gonna have

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to do, since this is a question of paradigmatic certitude, right,

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paradigm level certainty, We're going to have to question the

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paradigm itself, the authority in the paradigm within that whole worldview,

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to see which one is more correct, which one is

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coherent because we're at the level of final authority, we're

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at at the level of how do we know what's

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religiously true? So let's start with the Roman Catholic argument.

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And I think that it's pretty I don't think anybody's

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going to dispute that it's pretty standard that the office

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of the papacy is the starting point. Okay, I mean,

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I don't just anybody disagree with that. I mean a

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Roman Catholic might admit that you could read the Bible,

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it's materially sufficient and all this kind of stuff, and

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you could convert, but typically speaking, the final say so

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all TOI comes down to the papacy. They'll even say,

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for example, that the only way that we know the

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scriptures or the canon is because you know, in certain

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Western local councils, the pope affirmed the canon of Scripture. Now,

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the Orthodox position does not say the exact same thing

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about how we know the canon. We don't believe that

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it was just a decision of the Roman bishop in

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relationship to some local Western synods, which is typically how

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the Romanclolic position argues. But that's what they'll say. And

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then then we'll say so. So you see Peter because

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he was given the rock, or because he because he

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made the confession, he was said to be the rock,

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and then the church is built on this specific special

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place given to Peter as the Roman pontiff and all

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of his successors. Right, Vatican one is pretty clear. There's

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not a whole lot of dispute. I should probably pull

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up Vatican one because it's going to be relevant to

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the question of the ordinary magisterium as well, because the

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Romancalities are confused about this issue too, and they the

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same guy about Aquinas was arguing with me about this

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as well. So I actually found a good online Vatican

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one statement. Let's see if I can find that one again.

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I think this is pretty good, like a like a

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clear laying out version of it. All right, and let's

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find the ordinary statement. Yeah, there we go. So in

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chapter three, section eight, right now, again, I'm going to

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say that we all kind of know the I'm going

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to read it. But we want to make two points here.

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We want to start with the point of the ordinary

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magisterium because Roman Catholics are confused over this, and in fact,

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the SSPX and the normative Roman Catholics aren't even sure.

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They debate over this issue. They debate the status of

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ordinary magisterium and the desbate, they debate what is ordinary

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universal magisterium. So let's keep these facts in mind, because

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we're going to start to see how convoluted and confused

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this supposed simple system is. So let's see in that

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section chapter two, it says, wherefore we teach and declare

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that by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre

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eminence of ordinary power over every other church. Right, this

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is the statement of the supremacy. They are all in

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a hierarchical subordination. And it goes on to say, when

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it's matters of faith and morals. Now, first of all,

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that's pretty vague, isn't it. I mean, faith and morals

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could encompass anything and everything. The power of the Supreme

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Pontiff by no means distracts from the ordinary and immediate

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power of the episcopal jurisdiction of the rest of the

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bishops have exceeded from the place of the apostles. So

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we have this idea that it's a college, but the

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college only has that role in unison with the living

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magisterial teaching of the supreme pontiff. He has, of course

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this whole jurisdiction over the entire church, immediate over his

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own church in Rome, and overall churches with supreme jurisdiction.

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Now the again, and when we know when the statements

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are extraordinary, Right, extraordinary magisterium is the statement from the

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See of Peter with full apostolic authority for the whole

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church on faith and morals. Right, that's what makes it

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an ex cathedral extraordinary claim. And it is irrevocable and infallible.

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But that's not the only time that the church is

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irrevocably infallibly speaking, Let's put the quote up because people

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are going to say, I'm making it up or I'm not.

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I'm making up quotes. He's making up quotes from literally God,

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I'm making up quotes. If they had, by the way,

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if they had just read the essay, they would have

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seen the whole force and flow of my argument and

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they would have realized that So what if I misstated

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the word substance or accident, It's still the same point

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that it's created. But anyway, let's look at this statement

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on the ordinary magisterium, wherefore, by divine Catholic faith, all

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those things are to be believed which are contained in

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the Word of God, found a scripture and tradition, and

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which are proposed by the Church as matters to be

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believed as divinely revealed, whether by a solemn judgment that's

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extraordinary or in her ordinary universal magisterium. They're de fide.

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They are by divine and Catholic faith. That means dea

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fidae in Roman Catholicism. Okay, de fide, not de juree

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de fide, that's means of faith dogma. So the ordinary

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teaching magisterium is de fide guided by the terrorism of Peter,

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just as the rest of the doctrines are just as

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the now. Again, the reason they make this distinction is that, well,

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not everything has been specified right as extraordinary. But does

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that mean that just because it's not specified as extraordinary,

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it doesn't have to be followed and believed, no, right,

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because there are plenty of things that should, should and

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have to be believed that haven't specifically been dogmatically declared

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pretty obviously right in that scheme. Yeah, okay, so that's

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why it makes no sense to a lot of times.

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You'll hear the myth of the trads they'll be like,

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excuse me, there's only three, there's only two, there's only

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three extra cathedral statements. Ever, no, there's not. That's not true.

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Everything in Denzinger you have to believe. You can't. You

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can't reject anything in Denzinger because what is in Dnsinger

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is both extraordinary and ordinary universal magisterial teaching. In fact,

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an argument could be made, and again I don't care.

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The Romancavists can debate this all day long. I don't

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care what they what they think, they can debate it

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or what. I don't care what their position is. But

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they can't they can even argue amongst themselves whether they're

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catechisms are with or without error, right, because the catechisms

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are proposed by the Pope from the apostolic chair, with

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full teaching authority for the entire church on faith and morals.

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So their argument that they make is that you can't

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have the pope teaching universally in an ordinary magister away

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for the entire church, and it be wrong. Yes, all

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Roman Catholics will agree that a pope could have an error,

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a private error, on some theological position, But that also

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raises another problem, because if he could have a private

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theological error, then he could also be a material heretic

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or whatever. Right, Yeah, so then they have the debate

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like Taylor Marshall just had two days ago, about the

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mental gymnastics of what do we do if there's a

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critical pope? Because guess what, even all the Normies are

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now starting to wonder about Frank. They're starting to think, hey,

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maybe we got to revisit this question of Frank because

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is not very Orthodox and even the Norman Catholics are

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starting to figure that out. So there is a bit

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of a dilemma then about how to reconcile the ideas

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of you know, Vatican One and all that to the

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promise of Peter. And yes, somebody was pointing out I

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should also mention Florence. Yeah, I will mention Florence because

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everybody brought this up. News flash. Uh, we're going to

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talk about pentarchy two. Yeah, I meant to write that

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down my piece of paper here. Pentarchy's not a magical

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formula for how orthodox he determines doctrines, by the way.

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What we're going to see, by the way, is that

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when the when Roman Catholics try to learn about or

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come to Orthodox ideas, they tend to and I did

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this too when I was first looking at it. They

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tend to impose all of these Roman Catholic assumptions on it,

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like where's your final arbiter. Uh, if you don't have that,

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nobody knows what it is. Well, that's again, that's a

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Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the final arbner first

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of all. And they're gonna say, oh, that's Protestant, that's Protestant.

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We'll see if that's Protestant, let's see here when we

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get to that. But I just wanted to make the

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point though, that first of all, we have to understand

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that that universal Ordinary Magisterium is for the entire Church,

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has to be believed along with the Extraordinary Magisterium and

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any typical before the existence of the SSPIX, any typical

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Roman Catholic dogmatic manual or essay or treatise that I've

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ever seen. If you were to go to Catholic Encyclopedia

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right now and you look up Ordinary Universal Magisterium, it

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will say that it's guided by and protected by the

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Petrine Terrorism and all this kind of stuff, right. And

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then also I did want to point out I think

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there is a statement on absolute simplicity in Vatican one two.

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We're not talking about simplicity today, but there is a

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statement on God is absolutely simple. Yeah, completely simple, absolutely simple.

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It doesn't matter either one same one. God is one, singular,

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completely simple, unchangeable spiritual substance. He must be declared to

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be in reality and in essence to sink from the world.

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We don't disagree with that. Supremely happy in himself. This

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is bizarre terminology and from himself an expressive and expressibly

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loftier than anything beside himself. And let's see, was there

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one more statement on and I think, let's see, this

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is essentially tomistic in its construction. That's why, by the way,

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and this isn't the only one. If you read the

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essay that non other Roman Catholics can actually ever read,

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they just bitch about. Well, if you read the essay

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about absolute simplicity that I wrote, eye cite the other

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previous doctrines on the simplicity from like the Council of Rhymes,

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God's Justice, this is wisdess, this is wisdom, etcetera, etcetera,

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and then the Catholic Encyclopedia on the explanation of what

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wisdom or what divine knowledge is what the divine attribute.

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Just look up the divine attributes and it says every

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one of them are identical to the divine essence, and

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the distinctions are only virtual, nominal or conceptual. I don't

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care whether you use the words virtual, where they use

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the word nominal, whether they use the word conceptual, because

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it's all the same thing. It doesn't matter. And let's

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do this again. Even though I already did this, and

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the talks that we did on legs going to Sleep

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already covered this in the talks on absolute mutimplicity and

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all that stuff, let's cover it again. See. I even

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know in the Catholic Psychopedia verd Is it's under the

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section about the divine knowledge is identical simplicity of God.

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They're all, all the statements are identical. They can't figure

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out what we're talking about. They think we believe in

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a bunch of different gods. All right, let's see what

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is it. What's the statement? Once again? Let's see, let's

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start up at the top. It is true that no

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single predicate is adequate or exhaustive as a description of

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His infinite, infinite perfection. And that's this divine names right,

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and thus we need to employ a multitude of predicates.

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He's wise, he's just loving, et cetera. If as if

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at first sight, infinity could be reached by this multiplication

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of terms they're saying. But at the same time we

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recognize that this is not so being repugnant to the

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divine simplicity. So they're not really distinct. There's not really

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a multitude of statements that are true about God. They're

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virtually nominally, conceptually distinct. I don't care which terms you

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want to use, pick any one of them, because they're

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not real. They're not in ry and while that truth

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and while truth, goodness, wisdom, holiness, and other attributes as

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we conceive and define them, express perfections that are formally distinct. See,

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they're just formally distinct, conceptual nominal. Right again, open up

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the typical tomistic treatise. They're all going to tell you

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that it's not a real distinction. It's not even disputable, disputed,

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all right, as applied to God, they're all ultimately identical

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in meaning. Did you see that they are ultimately identical

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in meaning and describe the same ultimate reality. This is

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why Saint Basil says in letter two thirty four. If

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you add up all these attributes and they say they're

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all identical, it's foolish exactly. So a little excursus there

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on absolute simplicity, again just as a reminder, because we're

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going to see that it's actually absolutely multiplicity that is

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the root of why the papacy comes to be an issue.

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It's the root of the whole problem because it's an

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over emphasis on oneness, because of the over emphasis on

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the unity of God, this modalistic conception, this Younomian conception,

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where all the attributes and all of the predicates are

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absolutely identical in meaning in reality. That leads to this

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idea that the only way to distinguish the persons is

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by philioque And how many Roman Catholic Gufus apologists who

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don't even know the issue will say that there's no

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other way to distinguish the persons without the philioquay. It's

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because they have no idea what they're talking about. They

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have no clue about why the Father is the soul

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cause in ark as every Eastern father teaches, every one

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of them teaches, the sole cause an ark of the

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Godhead is the person of the Father, not the common

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essence of God, the person of the Father. In fact, again,

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when I mentioned the Father as the cause of the

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Godhead directly quoting Saint John Damascus, what did doctor Feingeld say,

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You can't speak of cause in terms of the persons,

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in terms of God. He didn't even know what was

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the common language of all the Eastern Church fathers. Even

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the Creed says, we believe in one God, the Father,

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not the common essence of God. There is one common

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essence of God, but it's the common essence the Father

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communicates to the Son and through that son to the Spirit.

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So let's get back to ecumenical councils. Now. The first

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point is that we want to understand that, just on

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a really obvious level, the claim that we have doctrinal

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religious epistemic certitude can't be said to be on the

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basis of the papacy, for the simple fact that the

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papacy came into existence, you know, at whatever point you

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want to chart it, we would say the Bishop of

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Rome evolved into having this these exorbitant claims of universal premiscy.

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It wasn't that way at the beginning. Obviously, Rome had

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a premacy of honor that evolved to be this sort

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of out of control thing. And by the eight hundreds

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and John the eighth signing the Eastern eighth Council and

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forbidding the Philioqua, that's when the real problems start. And

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then of course you have you know, ten fifty four

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and all that, and really again comes to the four

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in the situation if you read sat Photius's Mistagaugy of

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the Holy Spirit. But Saint Photios also has essays or

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letter excuse me, where he talks about Frankish missionaries coming

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into Bulgarian areas and spreading the philioquay in the Creed.

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But the Creed had already been signed by Pope John

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the eighth saying don't add the filioqua to the Creed.

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But if you're a Roman Catholic, you say, who cares?

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Because the Pope can reverse that. Now they will say

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they won't believe that, they won't believe that that John

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the eighth signed the Eastern eighth Council and forbade the Creed.

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But he did, and I'm going to let me show

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you the proof of that. That's in Father Dragas's essay.

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That's why this is a really important piece that I always.

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I'm adding it right now to the links in the

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stream here. I don't know if has any one of

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them read this. I mean I've been linking this and

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putting this in here. I'm gonna put at the top

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for you guys, right there at the top, right, so

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that should be there. I'll even put it in the

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chat for you guys can read that. Be a big

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boy and read that. My chat's not showing up here?

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Where's my chat? Let's see refresh this. I can't see

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what's going on in the chat. Am I just talking

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to nobody? Is this is this even working? Can you

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guys hear me? You guys are talking about Joel Osie.

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Can you guys hear me? I just want to make

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sure I'm not yapping into the ether to nobody. Okay, so,

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uh we got I just want to I want to

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say that I want to remind you guys that let

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me know if you guys can hear me, so I

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don't just keep you happening. I know the chat's always

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behind in this, in this and obs and all that. Okay, good,

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So we want to remind our guys. Here are listeners

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what the doctrine of divine simplicity, says again, do I

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need to just put I'll put the New Advent article

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on the divine nature and attributes there for you. Make

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it simple. Again, this shouldn't even be disputed. Anybody can

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open up the volume one of the Suma and the

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first few questions that deal with divine knowledge, divine unity,

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divine simplicity. Uh, and it's all going to tell you

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that they're all identical and they're only distinguished in terms

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of a virtual, terminological or conceptual sense. They're not really

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in reality distinct. And the argument is that we have

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to guard the unity of God that way or else

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we'll be try try theists or multiple theists. And these

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same Goufhases will turn around and tell you that there's

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a real distinction between the Father, the Son, and the

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Spirit and it doesn't divide or cause composition in the Godhead.

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I mean, this is serious mental illness here that these

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guys can. On the one hand, they say, yeah, there's

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a real distinction between Father's son and spirit, but it's relational.

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I don't care whether you call it relation. Is it

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real or not? Right? Did the Son become incarnate or

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did the whole trinity become incarnate the Son did, right,

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So he's really distinct from the Father and the Spirit. Yes, okay,

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so there's a real distinction in God that doesn't destroy

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the unity of God. It doesn't result in composition, and

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it doesn't result in division. So you already agree with

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us that there can be distinctions in a thing that

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don't destroy the unity of a thing. Now, so let's

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keep that in mind. We will be refreshed on our essence,

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energy ads issue. And then when we start to think

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about the ecumenical councils, and we say, and we keep

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in mind that. Okay, So the pope, the papacy as

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conceived of as a Vatican one that's what I was

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reading earlier. By the way, Vatican one. I'll have to

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stick that in there, though I think I'll make up

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all these Vatican one quotes. What we need to be

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the case is Vatican one's definition to all have always

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been true, all right, So it needs to be true

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if it's going to function as a starting point for

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epistemic certainty religious certainty. Did Isaiah have knowledge and certitude

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about God? Did Noah? Yeah, they did? Okay. Did the

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apostles in the person of Christ in front of Christ,

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was the was the papacy there yet?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Okay? So obviously, right off the bat, Okay, religious certitude

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cannot be grounded on an office, an external juridical office

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of a guy in Rome. Okay. So because people have

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obviously religious certitude known for certain about God. Proverbs talks

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about knowing God with certitude. Isaiah talks about knowing God.

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They directly interacted with the logos. Isaiah saw him. John says,

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Isaiah saw Christ seated on his throne when the Angel

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of the Lord appeared. Those Theophanes. Did they have to

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write to Rome and see if the Theophanes were real?

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Did Paul submit his letter to the Romans, to the Romans,

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to the church at Rome. He wrote a letter rebuking

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the church at Rome. Did he submit it to them

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for their approval so that they would No, he wrote

402
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to them with authority. Okay, So right off the bat, again,

403
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it's very obvious that on a basic epistemic level, religious

404
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certitude does not come from merely having or saying there's

405
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an external juridical guy who can make a decision. Okay, So,

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but what if we tried to argue that that now

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things have changed because of Pentecost and because of the

408
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coming Christ, and so now it's different. And now there

409
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is a juridical guy who sits in a magic throne

410
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and knows right, game of thrones and type of stuff,

411
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and that's that's how Jesus organized it, right. So so

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maybe it wasn't true in the Old Testament. They could

413
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have a direct kind of intuitive certitude or whatever kind

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of experience the prophets did, and they knew God existed.

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But now it's different. No, no, wait a minute, I

416
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thought Pentecost was supposed to be a better state of

417
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being than in the Old Testament. Pentecost is supposed to

418
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come to bring what would the Roman Catholics say, infallibility

419
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to the church. Who's the church ultimately the pope. So

420
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Pentecost is really in their mind just for the pope. Now,

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this is completely foreign to the mind of anybody who

422
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knows orthodox theology, because we would look to the earliest

423
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days of the Church and you can see that, for

424
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example the letters of Ignatius or in Irenaeus. The fullness

425
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of Catholicity exists in the local bishopric. There's nothing lacking.

426
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The local bishop has just as much spirit as the

427
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dude in Rome. There's no layers. This is not a

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chain of being where the pope is like closer up

429
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to the top of the chain of being, and all

430
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the rest of the podunk bishops out in the world

431
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are like way down. They're like they're floating there on,

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almost falling into non being on this big chain of

433
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being right up or closer to the absolute simplicity of

434
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perfect monad units or whatever it's to be. No, the

435
00:28:03,559 --> 00:28:08,759
power of Pentecost is fully present in the entirety of

436
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the church. Pentecost didn't hit Peter first and then spill

437
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out to everyone else. It just happened in the room

438
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to all of them. And if you remember what we

439
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said to Nick in the debate when Nick was bringing

440
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up all this stuff, every single statement that said to

441
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Peter is also said to all the other apostles. There's

442
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no indication that the other apostles only got that through Peter.

443
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Did Jesus say, Peter, I breathe on you, now breathe

444
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on them. No, he breathed on all of them. And again,

445
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this is the Apostolic model of the college, the collegiality,

446
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the college of the apostles. Look, for example, two chapters.

447
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After the statement of Matthew sixteen, Jesus says, surely, I

448
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say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be

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bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will

450
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be loose in heaven. He's not talking to Peter, He's

451
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talking to the whole all of them. And he says,

452
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and I say to you that if two of you

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agree on earth concerning anything, my Father will do it

454
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for you. So this is actually a promise of answered

455
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prayer and binding and loosing. Yes, it does apply to

456
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the episcopate, but it also, in a way applies to

457
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all of the body. And what the Roman charaturist does

458
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is restrict this, in this bizarre legalistic pharisical Talmudik way,

459
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to only the guy in Rome and only the people

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who are under him. But whether it's breathing on the

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entire apostles, the College of the Apostles, and saying whoever

462
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sends you remit, they're remitted, whoever sends you retain, they retained,

463
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Or whether it's the ability to sit on thrones and judge,

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does he say that's only in reference to Peter, and

465
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who Peter gives it to. No, he says that you

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will all right. At the last submer says you will

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all sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes. When

468
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,359
we look at the new Jerusalem in heaven, does it

469
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,880
have one cornerstone? No, it has twelve, because it's a

470
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,640
cube with twelve foundation stones upon which are all the

471
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:22,079
twelve apostles. Okay, it doesn't just say, it's not like

472
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,960
one little Peter block and then everything kind of stacked

473
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,359
on top of Peter. And if you remember the famous

474
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,279
prophecy I think was in Isaiah that Nick said this

475
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,920
was about Peter. No, the New Testament interprets the prophecies

476
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,799
of he who has the keys and opens and shut

477
00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:45,839
as Jesus and the apocalypse. It's not Peter. Now, in

478
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:52,720
the process of the Church coming to need government and

479
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:56,880
to set up government, they modeled it on Everybody knows this.

480
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,880
Even the Roman Catholics know this. They admit this. It's

481
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,559
modeled on the Old Testament. Sure, and this model on

482
00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:10,680
the Old Testament in the method of levite priest or

483
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,799
excuse me, yeah, levite priest high priest. Right, so there's

484
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:18,559
only one high priest and he is in Jerusalem, and

485
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,160
then you have levitees priests and levit.

486
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:24,839
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531
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: It's under that right. So you have deacon priest or

532
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:19,000
present her and episcops episcopate. So the model there, you

533
00:34:19,079 --> 00:34:21,000
can already see what they're own. Catholic does they say?

534
00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: Oh?

535
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: Yes, see the High Priest is the pope. He matches

536
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,840
up to the High Priest and the Old Testament. What

537
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,760
does Hebrews say? Hebrew says that the fulfillment of the

538
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,079
High priest is not There's nothing mentioned at all about

539
00:34:36,119 --> 00:34:38,840
Peter fulfilling the role the high priest. Jesus fulfills the

540
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,400
role high priest. You see, what I'm getting at is

541
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,440
that in Orthodox theology there's a real sense in which

542
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,519
because we are the body, and every single lay member

543
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:51,360
is fully a member of the body and fully participates

544
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:57,039
in this experience of Pentecosts through chris mation, Chrismation is

545
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,599
each person's personal Pentecost. What's the point of christ Nation,

546
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,639
your personal Pentecost if you can't be led into and

547
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:10,480
know the truth and know the Spirit. What did Jesus say,

548
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,199
I will send you the Spirit and he will guide

549
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,880
you into all truth? Is that just a statement to Peter, No,

550
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:21,800
it's a statement to the all the Apostolic college there. So,

551
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,760
what I'm getting at is that it's not by accident.

552
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,039
At the same point in time where there is a

553
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,599
massive division on the question of the Holy Spirit, in

554
00:35:31,679 --> 00:35:35,639
confusion over the hyposthetic origin the Spirit, his eternal manifestation,

555
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,559
and his economic sending, it's not accidental that that's the

556
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:43,360
same period in which we have the other aberrations, such

557
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,920
as the rise of the papal supremacy, universal God Emperor doctrines,

558
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,440
especially under the period of the Franks. I mean the

559
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:58,159
papacy goes into it goes to Avignon, France, the See

560
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,559
of Peter in Avignon, France for one hundred years almost,

561
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,400
and three different guys are claiming to be the pope

562
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,559
in France. And you think that there's nothing to the

563
00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:11,599
Frankish thesis, Give me a break. Obviously it's a tool

564
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,079
of political power. Oh but wait a minute, Wait a minute,

565
00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:18,840
you were gonna you were going to say that that

566
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:25,800
orthodoxy was a tool of imperial power. Wait a minute here,

567
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,880
that's actually a problem for any church ever in history.

568
00:36:29,159 --> 00:36:33,039
The claim to be a church is dealing with political power,

569
00:36:33,079 --> 00:36:37,719
and so instead of cesero papism, you just have paper cicerism. Right,

570
00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:43,159
Charlemagne and the Franks and the Carolinian theologians specifically, they

571
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,000
begin to make changes, such as the movement away from

572
00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:50,039
the stat from icons to statuary. Not that I'm making

573
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:51,719
a huge deal about that, but the point is that

574
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,400
this is where you start to see marketed differences. Right,

575
00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:57,760
the selivent only clergy, if you're not aware of it.

576
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,159
The Council of Trollo, which is accepted it and I

577
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,400
see it too, affirms married clergy and the West surprise

578
00:37:04,559 --> 00:37:08,599
rejected it at this point. Now their response is that, yeah,

579
00:37:08,639 --> 00:37:11,320
but we don't care what councils say, it's only what

580
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,199
the Pope says. So ecumenical council once again doesn't really

581
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,559
mean anything except rather just what the Pope confirms. Right,

582
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,320
And we're going to get to the objections. I know

583
00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:24,119
what you're going to say. You're gonna say, yeah, but

584
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,000
but you don't have any way to know the difference

585
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,239
between a true council and a false council. Basic bitch argument. Dude.

586
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,880
I'm going to settle that for you. That's nothing, that's

587
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,559
not that's a dumb objection. Before we get to that,

588
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:42,320
we're going to talk about the rise of Snodl church government, right,

589
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,960
because first of all, we don't think that the church

590
00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:49,159
requires ecumenical councils to be governed. No, it doesn't. There

591
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,599
was no ecumenical council for the first three hundred years

592
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,440
the church is being persecuted. Were their councils? Yeah? There were?

593
00:37:56,159 --> 00:37:59,440
Were they binding? Yes? They were? You see, So it's

594
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,920
the the wrong mindset. It's the Protestant Catholic dialectic mindset

595
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:07,400
to approach church history and church government from the vantage

596
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,840
point of Well, I only care about what's infallible and

597
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,400
what's not infallible. That's all that matters. Is your council

598
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,559
in follim or No, that's not the attitude. Do you

599
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,039
see the church fathers when they discuss the Council of

600
00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:23,920
Gangra or the regional councils of Africa or whatever. Are

601
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,239
they just sitting there saying, oh, what's infallible? What has

602
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,400
the pope be creed? No, they talk about them as

603
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:37,039
authoritative because they were Orthodox bishops, Orthodox Catholic bishops. Okay, Now,

604
00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:42,000
yes there are situations where false councils would arise, but

605
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:43,760
again we're going to get that in a minute. Before

606
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,079
we get to that, though, we want to look at

607
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:49,559
the model of the church government that arises in Acts fifteen.

608
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,599
And keep in mind too, before I talk about Ax fifteen,

609
00:38:55,199 --> 00:38:59,880
remember that the papacy is the supposedly the final are

610
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,599
okay on the questions of certitude and authority in the

611
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:08,519
Romancalolic system, Right, it's the final arbiter. What's the basis

612
00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:14,679
for this claim? Well, they'll say Matthew sixteen. So the

613
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,400
basis for the papacy is Matthew sixteen. Yes, And how

614
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,679
do we know that Matthew wrote Matthew and that's supposed

615
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:24,719
to be a canonical gospel. Well, because the Church confirmed

616
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:31,039
by tradition Matthew's gospel. So the papacy is vindicated by

617
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:35,000
Matthew sixteen, and Matthew sixteen is vindicated by the papacy.

618
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:40,000
This is a circle. This is a circle here. Now

619
00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:42,000
you say, well, I wait a minute, Jay, you talk

620
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:46,480
about transcendental arguments. Those are circles right at ultimate paradigm

621
00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:50,000
level argumentation. That's circular. Jay, You're being inconsistent because you

622
00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:52,760
make circular arguments all the time at the level of

623
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,639
worldviews and paradigms. Yes, I do, because I don't believe

624
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,239
in the epistemology of the Roman Catholic system, which forbids circularity.

625
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:10,239
The Roman Catholic scheme, it's epistemology, it's anthropology, it's tomistic

626
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,960
system adopted generally. And what we see in Denzinger and

627
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,639
what we see in Aught or any of those Roman

628
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:21,440
Catholic dogmatic statements is a classical foundationalist of pistemology. And

629
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:24,000
there's no disputing that. There's absolutely no question. I mean,

630
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:28,760
that's absolutely the kind of epistemology that Aquinas teaches. For example,

631
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,360
he does not adhere to any kind of a priori

632
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,840
argument for the existence of God. When he talks about

633
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,719
he cites the ontological argument, and he says in assuming

634
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,599
when he cites Anselm, he refutes it. He argues against asel,

635
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,719
and he says that faith is over here in the

636
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,800
realm of science, and knowledge is over here. Now they

637
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,000
do overlap, but they're two different realms. So knowing thing

638
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,000
knowing things according to natural reasoning and science that has

639
00:40:58,079 --> 00:41:02,199
a level of certitude, because it's in heracle that issues

640
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,880
of faith don't have the same kind of levels of

641
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,239
certitude authority. No person who believes in a transitional argument

642
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,039
can hold that because a transcendental argument, and that type

643
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:19,519
of argument is premised on the rejection of classical foundationalists epistemology,

644
00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:25,320
because it doesn't work. It's circular, and it wouldn't be

645
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:32,000
that way if that view didn't exclude circularity. But every

646
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,280
one of them will say, we believe in the laws

647
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,800
of logic, grounding foundational maxims that are self evident. Right,

648
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,079
these things are certain, that's the stuff we know. This

649
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,559
other stuff, this theology stuff, revelation. We might can have

650
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,639
a reasonable certitude about those things. But what we know

651
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:58,119
with more certainty is things like classical foundational axioms, laws

652
00:41:58,159 --> 00:42:01,679
of logic, law of non country, law of identity. This

653
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,599
is why they have a problem with not submitting their

654
00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:09,880
doctrine of simplicity to revelation, and instead they start with

655
00:42:10,599 --> 00:42:16,159
philosophic simplicity, definitional philosophic simplicity according to what Aristotle says

656
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,920
must be, not according to what Moses and Exodus right

657
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,400
and up into the gospels. Not what they say about simplicity,

658
00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:27,440
not what simplicity is according to Saint Paul, or the

659
00:42:27,559 --> 00:42:30,920
inner gaya of the spirit, the operations and energies of

660
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,960
the spirit distribute the gifts of the spirit. Right, that

661
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,119
would mean a distinction between essence and energy. Right. So no,

662
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,000
it has to be read and retooled and reformulated according

663
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:47,559
to hellenic simplicity. And every one of them who ends

664
00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:50,519
up debating me at length about this issue eventually says

665
00:42:50,599 --> 00:42:52,960
that you can't have a distinction in God that's real,

666
00:42:53,039 --> 00:42:55,719
because that would be a violation of accidents and substance,

667
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,760
and God has no accidents. Yeah, but we're not what

668
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,760
simplicity is on Aristotle's definition, or mimi and IDEs definition,

669
00:43:06,079 --> 00:43:11,199
or Aquinas quoting both Aristotle and Miamides, or Aquinus quoting

670
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,000
just Aristotle throughout the first few questions of the cinema

671
00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:17,760
about God's simplicity. And again watch them all. They're gonna run,

672
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,559
They're gonna go crazy and take everything inside out of

673
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:25,039
context because they can't follow a simple argument. I mean,

674
00:43:25,079 --> 00:43:28,800
the stuff is complex, but the argument itself is quite simple, right,

675
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,400
which is that, why are you deriving what simplicity means

676
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,519
from Aristotle or from Plato or from the Monad Because

677
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:39,960
that's not what the Church fathers did. In fact, Basil

678
00:43:40,039 --> 00:43:44,719
went to great links to argue against hellenic philosophic simplicity.

679
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,400
Read the refutations of the Unomians. When the Church Fathers

680
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:53,039
argue against the unuimions, they say, you're using Hellenic philosophic

681
00:43:53,159 --> 00:44:00,960
simplicity that we don't adhere to. When Saint Max disputes

682
00:44:01,039 --> 00:44:04,239
with purists, he says the same point. He says, you're

683
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,679
using dialectics from the philosophers and not going by what

684
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:16,639
the gospels say, because revelation is what's certain, that's more

685
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,320
certain than the laws of logic. In fact, the laws

686
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,760
of logic are grounded on revelation. That's the transcendental argument.

687
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,679
It's the other way around. In Tomism. The laws of

688
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,360
logic certitude about mathematical principles, these kinds of things that's

689
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,119
more certain, and then you have these other things like

690
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,159
revelation that we can we can maybe tack on persons, right,

691
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,360
it will establish the existence of one supreme super essence.

692
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,800
This is what volume one, assuming the Countragentelis, does and

693
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,480
then in the next volume he moves on to say,

694
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:52,000
all right, let's tack the persons onto that. No, no, no,

695
00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:54,320
that's not how it goes. That's not how it goes.

696
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:59,199
It's revealed that God is Father and personal. First, we

697
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,239
don't start with us. It's of God. I believe in

698
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,239
one God, the Father Almighty, as the Creed says. So

699
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:10,519
with that in mind, we can now see why it's

700
00:45:10,599 --> 00:45:14,079
in our scheme. Circularity is not a problem because we

701
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:21,119
recognize at fundamental paradigmatic level circularity is inevitable. But on

702
00:45:21,199 --> 00:45:25,519
the Roman Catholic scheme, you're not supposed to be circular.

703
00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:32,519
It's a violation of classical foundationalist reasoning and logic. And yes,

704
00:45:32,559 --> 00:45:36,480
that's somewhat anachronistic because classical foundationalism is the term that

705
00:45:36,599 --> 00:45:40,360
comes centuries after a quitnas. It doesn't matter, it describes

706
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,760
the same idea, the same principle. I remember debating a

707
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,519
Dominican once and he said, he said, the laws of

708
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:50,519
logic are what are certain? The teachings of revelation are

709
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,639
maybe ninety percent certain, maybe eighty percent certain. Do you

710
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,239
see the stupid stupidity of this view? Any knowing atheist

711
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,760
would point out, any clever atheists would point out that

712
00:46:03,159 --> 00:46:06,159
how is your God the true God when something like

713
00:46:06,199 --> 00:46:08,639
the laws of logic, which in your worldview are actually

714
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,719
based on him, are more certain than him. That's dumb,

715
00:46:14,079 --> 00:46:23,960
That's stupid. If God exists, he is the basis for

716
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:28,480
the laws of logic, Okay, then he's the presupposition of

717
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,960
the laws of logic, not the other way around. The

718
00:46:31,079 --> 00:46:33,360
laws of logic aren't a God that we then subject

719
00:46:33,679 --> 00:46:38,199
God to. It's the other way around. And that's why

720
00:46:38,639 --> 00:46:40,800
when you understand what I'm saying, and then you go

721
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,519
and look at what Paul says in Act seventeen, Oh,

722
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,920
you realize he's not saying classical apologetics. He's saying what

723
00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:54,119
Jay says. He says, Greeks, your religion is foolishness, right,

724
00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:59,599
the wisdom of this world is certain. Paul says, no, no, no, no.

725
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,079
You just said the wisdom of this world is certain

726
00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:04,679
and reasonable and rational, and then we tack on revelation

727
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,039
on top of it with whatever kind of word. No, no, no,

728
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:12,639
the wisdom of this world is foolishness. Does that mean

729
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,360
Plato or Aristotle can't say true things. No, it's nothing

730
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,400
to do with whether they make true or false statements

731
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,360
at times. Has everything to do with the ultimate grounding

732
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,079
of our authority and our belief systems, and that ultimate

733
00:47:25,119 --> 00:47:32,920
grounding and authority is Aerosol's metaphysics. No, it's revelation. Let

734
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,199
me give another example. In Fulton Sheen's book Life of Christ.

735
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,280
He begins the book I remember reading that many years ago,

736
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:41,920
and I thought this would be good, This would be good.

737
00:47:43,159 --> 00:47:46,400
He begins the book by saying, I'm not kidding, and

738
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,679
now I'm going for memory. So if you obsessive Roman

739
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,000
Catholics out there, if you find one word that I

740
00:47:54,119 --> 00:47:58,239
misquote going from memory ten years ago, that's not going

741
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,199
to work to go crazy have a victory parade. But

742
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,519
going from memory what he says, and every Roman Catholic

743
00:48:04,559 --> 00:48:06,800
who talks about the Gospels will say this very there's

744
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,000
a lecture work. Scott Hans says the exact same thing.

745
00:48:09,119 --> 00:48:12,440
I remember, this comes to mind any kind of Peter

746
00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:17,079
Kreeft typical apologetic manuals. They're not going to differ. They're

747
00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:18,800
going to say, if we say, how do we know

748
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,039
that the scriptures are inspired? How can we know if

749
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,800
revelation found in scripture is actually inspired? Fultensten starts off

750
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,639
by saying, we don't come to the Bible with any

751
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:38,480
presubpositions of divine inspiration, certitude, infallibility, or authority. We treat

752
00:48:38,559 --> 00:48:41,480
the Bible like any other book in the world, and

753
00:48:41,639 --> 00:48:46,639
we apply the neutral scientific methods of textual research and

754
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:51,440
higher criticism, and we can come to a reasonable conclusion that,

755
00:48:51,639 --> 00:48:56,639
with a large degree of certitude, it's highly probable that

756
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:05,000
the Bible and its texts are very likely inspired. What now,

757
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,480
what does in revelation itself? Right? We all let's take

758
00:49:09,519 --> 00:49:11,440
some text that we all agree on, right, like the

759
00:49:11,519 --> 00:49:17,960
Bible or the Gospel of Matthew, for example, the be Attitudes.

760
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:23,400
Does Jesus say that, no, he says, Heaven and earth

761
00:49:23,599 --> 00:49:28,480
will pass away, but my words won't pass away. And

762
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,679
he says, truly, I say that not one jot or

763
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,880
tittle will pass away from the law until all things

764
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:42,760
are fulfilled. In other words, scripture and what's revealed is

765
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:49,119
the pre eminent authority, even over your reasoning, even over

766
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:56,960
your academic sciences. Now, the academic sciences can do great

767
00:49:57,039 --> 00:50:01,639
things to vindicate all kinds of the scripture, and anybody

768
00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:04,840
who doesn't understand that or that I say that, is

769
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,840
just completely confused. Of course it can't. But we're not

770
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:14,400
talking about the production of evidentiary justifications or the aid

771
00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:20,400
of evidentiary pieces of evidence. We're talking about the certitude

772
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,480
at the most fundamental level. Right, So we're saying that

773
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,079
the revelation is really the grounding here. And even the

774
00:50:26,159 --> 00:50:28,480
Roman Catholic system when it says that the papacy has

775
00:50:28,559 --> 00:50:32,039
proven from Matthew eighteen, even that is admitting that really

776
00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:36,800
this is coming from revelation, right, Okay, And then how

777
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,599
do we know, according to Fulton Sheen and all the

778
00:50:38,679 --> 00:50:43,159
other classical apologists in that Goofy system, how do we

779
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:45,079
know that these things are true? Well, we apply the

780
00:50:45,159 --> 00:50:49,320
sciences of textual studies and research. No no, no, no, no, no,

781
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,960
we don't. Now again, I'm not saying you can't do

782
00:50:52,039 --> 00:50:55,559
textual studies, but textual studies don't give you the certitude

783
00:50:55,559 --> 00:51:01,880
that you're seeking. Does revelation of itself that way? You see,

784
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,880
we're at the point of revelation as our final authority,

785
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,400
and what can it appeal to. It can only appeal

786
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:14,199
to itself. There's no other authority that God's going to

787
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:18,639
appeal to to vindicate God. So at a fundamental, basic level,

788
00:51:19,199 --> 00:51:25,360
it's self referencing. And the mind of the classical foundationalist

789
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:29,079
says that that's crazy, that doesn't work because that's circular. Yeah. Bro,

790
00:51:29,679 --> 00:51:32,480
all world views are circular at base. That's the point.

791
00:51:33,199 --> 00:51:36,039
Because every position, whether you're an atheist or whether you're

792
00:51:36,039 --> 00:51:38,840
a Muslim, or whether you whatever you are, cult doesn't matter.

793
00:51:40,199 --> 00:51:44,960
You are grounding foundations are going to be circular. At

794
00:51:45,079 --> 00:51:47,920
some point, they will be self referencing. This is what

795
00:51:48,119 --> 00:51:54,280
no Tomas can grasp because a self evident maxim like

796
00:51:55,079 --> 00:51:58,599
the law of non contradiction. Okay, it's fine to talk

797
00:51:58,639 --> 00:52:01,480
about that as self evident a certain way, but even

798
00:52:01,519 --> 00:52:04,760
a self evident maxim doesn't make any sense apart from

799
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,039
being grounded in a world where self evident maxims are

800
00:52:08,119 --> 00:52:13,599
even possible, namely in a Christian world. So self evident maxims,

801
00:52:13,599 --> 00:52:17,559
the laws of logic are transcendental proofs of the God

802
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:21,320
of the Bible. They're grounded in Him. They don't exist

803
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:26,239
on their own. They're not autonomous. Man's reasoning is not autonomous.

804
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,960
It doesn't have the ability to figure out the mysteries

805
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,880
of the universe apart from divine grace and revelation. Now,

806
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,559
it can get some things right, right. I mean, when

807
00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:41,079
an unbeliever discovers something true about earthworms and he says, oh,

808
00:52:41,159 --> 00:52:44,360
this proves dorminism. Okay, so maybe he's figured out something

809
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,960
true about the earthworm, but that doesn't prove his whole worldview.

810
00:52:49,039 --> 00:52:51,920
It also doesn't prove that natural reasoning can prove that

811
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:56,760
there's a super simple, generic substance that's crazy. No, it can't,

812
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,440
and even if it did, that's not God. I am

813
00:52:59,519 --> 00:53:03,559
not joined with the Jehovah's witness in doing apologetics. We

814
00:53:03,679 --> 00:53:07,360
don't have the same God. There's not a common apologetic

815
00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:11,119
argument between a Jehovah's witness and a scientology proponent and me.

816
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,440
But in the Roman Catholic scheme. There is you're doing

817
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,679
the same apologetics of all the other world religions that

818
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:23,440
believe in an absolutely simple super essence. That's not our God.

819
00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:26,480
That's not our God. Our God is I am that,

820
00:53:26,599 --> 00:53:31,559
I am personal, I am he, I am I is

821
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:35,360
he is personal. It's not I am essence, I am it,

822
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,159
I am super super essential, super moanad. I am he

823
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:49,159
he Father personal He. Thus we come back to the

824
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:55,960
question of revelation. It's not settled or known by human autonomy.

825
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,360
Human autonomy does not put We don't put God's relation

826
00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:04,480
there and say I the human court of rationality and

827
00:54:04,599 --> 00:54:08,159
higher critical reasoning, we put God's word on trial. We

828
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,159
put revelation on trial today, and we will see if

829
00:54:11,199 --> 00:54:15,199
it matches up to our human reasoning capacities. And guess

830
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,920
what in the history of this approach, where do you

831
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,480
think it led directly to higher criticism? And what do

832
00:54:21,519 --> 00:54:28,000
you think higher criticism came up with. We have judged guilty.

833
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,159
You are guilty of fraud. This is not the word

834
00:54:31,199 --> 00:54:34,360
of God. This is the word of men. Our reasoning

835
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,199
and our higher critical standards have determined this because we

836
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,880
judged it on the basis of neutral facts, neutral reasoning,

837
00:54:41,159 --> 00:54:45,960
neutral logic, neutral laws have shown this to be completely inadequate.

838
00:54:46,639 --> 00:54:51,280
That's what happened in history, Dude. Why did that happen

839
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:55,840
in history? Well, because, first of all, the entire approach

840
00:54:56,199 --> 00:55:01,000
is wrong. There are no neutral laws of logic. There

841
00:55:01,039 --> 00:55:06,840
are no neutral reasoning approaches because men aren't neutral. They

842
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:12,239
are either in rebellion against God or seeking God right

843
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,599
Romans one. The whole world has fallen into idolatry and

844
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,519
is in rebellion against God, according to Romans one, and

845
00:55:19,679 --> 00:55:23,000
so none of them are neutral, none of them, No

846
00:55:23,159 --> 00:55:29,639
human beings are neutral. Romans three. There's no neutrality. If

847
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:33,280
an unbeliever discovers something true, it's in spite of his unbelief.

848
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:35,719
When we were debating with that pagan guy, all of

849
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,719
his objective truths and principles are what he wants out

850
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,679
that come from Christianity, but he doesn't want the Christianity

851
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,679
also wants all this pagan nonsense on top of it.

852
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:48,800
So if he does things that are true and good

853
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:52,960
and right, it's in spite of his unbelief. In the

854
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:59,239
same way logic, the laws of logic are theory laden.

855
00:56:00,079 --> 00:56:03,119
They don't operate independently. They don't operate on their own.

856
00:56:03,559 --> 00:56:07,559
They're not abstract and personal principles that float around just

857
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:11,719
there by which we then judge God. If God doesn't exist,

858
00:56:12,079 --> 00:56:16,000
there are no laws of logic. There are no objective principles.

859
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,440
They only make sense if God exists. It's a complete

860
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,639
reorientation of your thought process. You have to reorient your

861
00:56:24,679 --> 00:56:29,519
thought process. You can't say Jesus is Lord and then

862
00:56:29,599 --> 00:56:31,519
turn around and say, oh, but not in the areas

863
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:34,840
of textual criticism, and not in the areas of how

864
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:39,159
we vindicate and look at the scriptures. You don't believe

865
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,119
that he's lord. There is he lord over textual criticism too?

866
00:56:43,679 --> 00:56:45,679
Is he lord of the laws of logic? I remember

867
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:49,079
when I asked that Dominican guy that he was like, what,

868
00:56:50,679 --> 00:56:54,719
I don't even understand. You're talking about the laws of logic.

869
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,519
It is more certain than revelation. Is Jesus the lord

870
00:56:57,519 --> 00:56:59,880
of laws? Of the laws of logic? Do they not

871
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:01,400
arise from him?

872
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:09,199
Speaker 2: As the logos not logos logoss low gosh, the loah gosh,

873
00:57:09,559 --> 00:57:12,239
the law goss logos.

874
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: The laws of law of logic are not equal to

875
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:27,440
the personal logos. They are reflections of the logi, the

876
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:37,199
uncreated logi. They are examples exemplars, but they're not the

877
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:39,960
exact same thing as the logos, because the logos is

878
00:57:40,039 --> 00:57:43,800
not an impersonal force that permeates the universe, like the

879
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,840
Stoics and like Marcus Aurelius, and like all these are

880
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,360
the Greeks said, did the Greeks talk about this idea?

881
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,880
And is John appealing to that? Yeah, he's appealing to that,

882
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:55,960
but he's appealing to that on the basis of the

883
00:57:56,039 --> 00:58:03,320
wisdom texts in Solomon wisdom. The logos that's out there

884
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,679
in the world that the Greeks are looking for is

885
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,760
the wisdom that Solomon's talking about in Proverbs one through ten.

886
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:17,679
You see, when we understand that Christ is the source

887
00:58:17,719 --> 00:58:20,239
of these things, that Christ is the lord of logic,

888
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,639
that the wisdom that exists anywhere in the world is

889
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,039
ultimately His, then you have the right attitude to understand

890
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:27,880
that there's not.

891
00:58:30,119 --> 00:58:30,159
Speaker 3: That.

892
00:58:30,599 --> 00:58:34,159
Speaker 1: If Plato said something true, and you did at times,

893
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:39,280
it's because of the Logos in him, Jesus in him.

894
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:41,559
Now does that mean he participated in theosis? I'm not

895
00:58:41,639 --> 00:58:44,599
saying that. No. But Paul says that the word is

896
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,920
near you, even in your heart. Christ is present in

897
00:58:48,079 --> 00:58:51,280
some way in every single human being because they're meaning

898
00:58:52,559 --> 00:58:56,480
their logi. The logos of each person, of each thing

899
00:58:58,239 --> 00:59:01,079
is from Him because all things are made through him.

900
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,400
He owns all things, they're all his. They all have

901
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,719
their meaning in him. Logic has its meaning in him,

902
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,280
not independently of him. It's not neutral. There's no neutrality,

903
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,440
and that's what they can't grasp because once they grasp

904
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,679
there's no neutrality, they would be forced to our position.

905
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:25,480
So let's bring it back then to the papacy. Let's

906
00:59:25,519 --> 00:59:32,960
come back to Rome and the vishop. So with this

907
00:59:33,159 --> 00:59:37,719
in mind, we start to understand that, like the video

908
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,480
that I just put up, thank you to Lewis for

909
00:59:39,599 --> 00:59:51,079
pulling that out that epistemically, in terms of epistemology, knowing things, certitude,

910
00:59:51,159 --> 00:59:55,559
knowing religious beliefs, having certainty about religious beliefs, it makes

911
00:59:55,599 --> 00:59:59,960
absolutely no sense to say the confession that we have theological,

912
01:00:00,199 --> 01:00:02,320
and many of those points where Mechalics do confess with

913
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,039
us theologically, they'll say, yeah, Jesus Lord, yes, I believe

914
01:00:05,079 --> 01:00:07,440
in the sovereignty of God, I believe in providence. I

915
01:00:07,519 --> 01:00:11,840
believe that logical truths ultimately have their grounding in God.

916
01:00:12,079 --> 01:00:14,679
But then they turn around and they don't. They're not

917
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,559
consistent with it. They'll turn around and say, but there's

918
01:00:17,639 --> 01:00:20,480
neutrality in these things, right, I mean scientists are neutral.

919
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:25,159
We approach the Bible with neutrality. No human being approaches

920
01:00:25,199 --> 01:00:29,719
the Bible with neutrality. According to Paul's very clear teaching,

921
01:00:30,119 --> 01:00:31,119
there is no neutrality.

922
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 3: Right.

923
01:00:34,039 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: You are either rebelling against God, child of unbelief, Paul says,

924
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:51,400
practicing idolatry in some way, or you're on team Christ

925
01:00:51,719 --> 01:00:55,239
and seeking what's true. You're not. There's no middle ground,

926
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:56,960
like I'm not gonna you know, I'm gonna be over

927
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,519
here in the middle ground. Oh, the scientists, the scientists

928
01:01:00,559 --> 01:01:04,039
and the logicians have the privileged position of middle ground

929
01:01:04,119 --> 01:01:06,559
neutrality by which they can be the arbit No, they

930
01:01:06,599 --> 01:01:13,400
don't all beliefs, all propositions, they're all theory laden, they're

931
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:18,360
all paradigmatic. They're all conditioned by the presupositions and the paradigm.

932
01:01:20,079 --> 01:01:22,920
That's why tomism doesn't work, not just in terms of

933
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,159
absolute devienne simplicity, but in terms of epistemic systematic approaches.

934
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,960
It's a wrong epistemology because it's a wrong anthropology. Why

935
01:01:31,039 --> 01:01:32,920
is it wrong because it doesn't believe in the news.

936
01:01:34,119 --> 01:01:37,039
They believe in a body and a soul, and half

937
01:01:37,079 --> 01:01:40,840
the time the soul is identified with the intellect in

938
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:48,960
their anthropology. Hence why being studied is so important. Hence

939
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:54,039
why Barleem rebuked Saint Gregory and said, your monks aren't studying,

940
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:59,159
they're just praying. Yeah, but Paul said, the wisdom of

941
01:01:59,159 --> 01:02:01,639
this world is foolishness. And in all those chapters where

942
01:02:01,679 --> 01:02:04,960
Paul talks about his vision, Paul is talking about what

943
01:02:05,079 --> 01:02:07,960
Gregory is talking about. You see, So when you make

944
01:02:08,039 --> 01:02:10,440
fun of us and you mock the things that you

945
01:02:10,519 --> 01:02:13,559
don't understand, it's the very thing that Paul's talking about

946
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:18,199
when he had his vision, when Paul was translated into

947
01:02:18,199 --> 01:02:23,119
the third heavens and saw the uncreated light, he's talking

948
01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:26,920
about the noose. And that's why Paul says, to pray

949
01:02:27,039 --> 01:02:29,119
in your body and your soul and in your spirit,

950
01:02:30,719 --> 01:02:34,559
in your nows. Noos is a faculty given to man

951
01:02:34,679 --> 01:02:38,920
by God for knowing God directly. Roman Callochs don't believe this.

952
01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:40,880
They've never believed that that It's not anywhere in their

953
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:46,320
doctrine anywhere nowhere gone lost because it's a development that

954
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,880
happened in the East. Now, because we believe that there

955
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,920
is body, soul, and noose, we have a triparteipe view

956
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:57,400
of man. We believe that the heart and the mind

957
01:02:57,559 --> 01:03:00,920
have to be working in harmony. Can't just have intellect.

958
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,400
You can't just have a hamster wheel of intellect running

959
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:06,079
trying to figure this stuff out, because it's not a science.

960
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,920
It's an existential change and conversion that affects the whole

961
01:03:13,119 --> 01:03:18,559
being body, soul, and news, the whole being of man.

962
01:03:20,199 --> 01:03:25,199
And by soul we mean man's inner soul, his the

963
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:32,000
seat of his desire, his heart and intellect right and

964
01:03:32,119 --> 01:03:34,719
then the news again being the faculty by which we

965
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,400
know God directly. So we believe that in Eden, God

966
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,840
created Adam with that faculty to know him directly. Now,

967
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:46,800
after the fall, the noose of man is darkened. This

968
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,000
is not Plato's news, not the same thing. Plato believes

969
01:03:50,039 --> 01:03:53,599
that the Trinity is some kind of weird monad diead

970
01:03:53,719 --> 01:03:57,119
triad noos that kind of like just happened. That's not what,

971
01:03:57,639 --> 01:04:00,800
has nothing to do with what we're talking about. Totally different.

972
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,360
But in our view, if you don't understand that as

973
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:10,400
part of the anthropology, then it makes no sense to you.

974
01:04:10,679 --> 01:04:14,519
Why as as Orthodox, we believe that you that you

975
01:04:14,599 --> 01:04:18,880
can know God directly, and here's where the Roman Catholical said.

976
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:23,239
But if you know God directly, then then you're a Protestant.

977
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:28,159
That's the Protestants say, Prota, the Holy Spirit guides you,

978
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,840
and you know truth directly, and you don't need the pope.

979
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:32,800
So it's just you and the Bible. You become your

980
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,400
own pope. It's just you and you're sect over there.

981
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:38,400
And there's a million popes as many popes as there

982
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:43,400
are Protestants. Every Protestant is his own pope. Now what

983
01:04:43,519 --> 01:04:46,639
we say is these are two errors feeding off of

984
01:04:46,719 --> 01:04:49,159
one another. We don't believe either one of these, and

985
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,880
the functioning of the church and the first millennium did

986
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:59,079
not operate on either of these ways. Okay, So let

987
01:04:59,159 --> 01:05:16,960
me show you here and we will look at the

988
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:23,800
famous quote from Now. I've read about six or seven

989
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:28,320
of Ratzinger's books, so I'm not speaking from ignorance. Now Again,

990
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:33,199
part of the reason that there might be some confusion

991
01:05:33,239 --> 01:05:35,880
about me just recalling from memory quotes, I have a

992
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,639
really good memory so typically speaking, but yes, guess what,

993
01:05:38,719 --> 01:05:42,719
I'm not infallible in my memory, so sometimes I'll get

994
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:51,480
things wrong, and I don't always remember every quote exactly correct, right,

995
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,760
But typically speaking, the point that I'm making is not

996
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,760
I'm right most of the points that I'm making. So

997
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,719
we're gonna look at this Benedict quote here. We want

998
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:17,360
to see what he says about the early Church, because

999
01:06:17,559 --> 01:06:20,159
we're pointing out here that the papacy again, is not

1000
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:29,320
just a thing that that somehow magically solves questions. It's

1001
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:33,039
a thing that kind of rows up over time. And

1002
01:06:33,159 --> 01:06:36,159
it helps to see that because then you understand our

1003
01:06:36,239 --> 01:06:39,079
vantage point. You understand that you don't you're not gonna

1004
01:06:39,119 --> 01:06:43,199
come to trying to understand orthodoxy with a Roman Catholic presupposition.

1005
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:43,519
Speaker 2: Right.

1006
01:06:43,599 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: So this is why we've been talking about how ultimately

1007
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,039
this isn't a question of epistemology. Then we're gonna look

1008
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:50,559
at the councils and we're gonna look at how they

1009
01:06:50,639 --> 01:06:52,239
matter and why they matter. Oh and I got to

1010
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,039
read the Acts fifteen to two. I forgot to do

1011
01:06:54,119 --> 01:06:58,280
that because this is the first council, right. The first

1012
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,960
Synod is not nicea it's not Gangre or any of those.

1013
01:07:02,039 --> 01:07:07,199
It's actually Acts fifteen. Let's see what And I've read

1014
01:07:07,239 --> 01:07:10,119
this book. I've read against six or seven of Ratzinger's books.

1015
01:07:10,159 --> 01:07:12,960
I read this one back when I converted to Roman

1016
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:17,960
Thossism a long time ago. Principles of Catholic Theology. He says,

1017
01:07:18,039 --> 01:07:22,800
against this background, we can now weigh the possibilities that

1018
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:28,239
are open to Acumenism. The maximum demands on which the

1019
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:34,800
search for unity must certainly founder are immediately clear. On

1020
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:38,159
the part of the West, the maximum demand would be

1021
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,440
that the East recognized the premacy of the Bishop of

1022
01:07:40,559 --> 01:07:46,159
Rome in the full scope of eighteen seventy Vatican One. Well, yeah,

1023
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:48,960
that's Roman Catholic dogma. Right, of course, they have to

1024
01:07:49,039 --> 01:07:52,039
accept the full scope, and in so doing they would

1025
01:07:52,039 --> 01:07:55,840
submit in practice to the premiscy as is the Uniates accepted. Yeah,

1026
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,599
that's why they are Uniates. On the part of the East,

1027
01:07:59,639 --> 01:08:02,880
the max demand would be the West declare the eighteen

1028
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:07,199
seventy doctrine of premacy erroneous and in doing so submit

1029
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,679
in practice to a supremacy such was accepted within the

1030
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,079
WA's This removal of the philia, okay, the creed and

1031
01:08:14,159 --> 01:08:16,640
including the Marian dogmas of the nineteen twentieth century. As

1032
01:08:16,680 --> 01:08:21,119
regard Protestantism, the maximum demand of the Catholic Church would

1033
01:08:21,119 --> 01:08:25,680
be that the Protestant ecclesiastical ecclesiological ministers be regarded as

1034
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:30,079
invalid and that process be converted to Catholicism. Yeah, because

1035
01:08:30,079 --> 01:08:33,520
that's what's always been the case, is that whichever position

1036
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,960
is true, we know that it involves the conversion of

1037
01:08:36,079 --> 01:08:40,880
the heterodox. Now, while the first three maximum demands are

1038
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:48,800
unanimously rejected by Christian consciousness, no they're not. They're rejected

1039
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:55,119
in ecumenism. So Benedict doesn't believe Vatican one. He's searching

1040
01:08:55,199 --> 01:09:00,640
for a unity that we can all agree on that

1041
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:09,359
doesn't reflect the maximum demands of Vatican One. It's a

1042
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,920
no brainer that this is obviously not the teaching of

1043
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:18,399
Vatican one. Yeah, exactly. Now let's get to one of

1044
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,920
these other key key quotes are now and we're gonna

1045
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:25,680
deal with the nonsense objections of and again, I have

1046
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:27,640
read these books, and you can believe me or not.

1047
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:29,840
I don't care whether you believe me. I know what

1048
01:09:30,039 --> 01:09:35,960
these books teach. I've read them. There's all kinds of

1049
01:09:36,079 --> 01:09:40,319
modernism in Benedict by the way, for the people who

1050
01:09:40,359 --> 01:09:43,760
think he's some kind of super trad yeah, right, give

1051
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:51,760
me a break, dude, Page one. Nor is it possible,

1052
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:53,880
on the other hand, for him to regard as the

1053
01:09:53,960 --> 01:09:57,279
only possible form and consequently binding on all Christians. The

1054
01:09:57,399 --> 01:10:00,079
form of this premiss he talking aout Vatican one's so

1055
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:03,399
that was taken in the nineteen twentieth century. Right, So

1056
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:07,840
we can't continue to expect the Orthodox to accept Vatican

1057
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:11,800
on the symbolic gestures of Pope Paul the six And

1058
01:10:12,319 --> 01:10:15,800
in particular, he's kneeling before the representative of the ecumenical patriarch,

1059
01:10:18,119 --> 01:10:21,680
the schismatic according to this quote, right, or an attempt

1060
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,760
to express this. So he's saying that we can't continue

1061
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:33,680
to expect the Vatican one definitions to be binding upon

1062
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:43,079
the Orthodox. And then finally we have the best quote

1063
01:10:43,079 --> 01:10:57,199
of all, which is I'm gonna make the point most

1064
01:10:57,279 --> 01:11:05,640
forcefully here and again I have read this book. It's

1065
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,079
not taken out of context. This is what the book

1066
01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:13,439
is saying. Because Benedict has always been a rabbit ecumenist,

1067
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:18,000
as have all of them. Francis is not some radical

1068
01:11:18,119 --> 01:11:20,119
in the sense of ecumenism. He's doing the same thing.

1069
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:24,439
They all did, so, he says later on at page

1070
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:31,359
two sixteen two seventeen, Patriarch Athanagaris, from their vantis point schismatic,

1071
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:35,479
spoke even more strongly when he greeted Paul the sixth

1072
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:39,319
and the final, against all expectation, the bishop of Rome

1073
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:41,880
is among us, the first among us in honor. So

1074
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:46,000
he was stating what the Roman views of the Orthox

1075
01:11:46,079 --> 01:11:48,960
view has always been. It is clear in saying this

1076
01:11:49,039 --> 01:11:51,199
that the patriarch did not abandon the claims of the

1077
01:11:51,239 --> 01:11:54,640
Eastern churches or the knowledge of the premiscy of the West. Rather,

1078
01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:57,399
he stated plainly what the East understood as the order,

1079
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,239
rank and title of the equality of the bishop in

1080
01:12:00,319 --> 01:12:03,439
the Church. And it would be worth our while to

1081
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:08,079
consider whether this archaic confession, which has nothing to do

1082
01:12:08,199 --> 01:12:12,359
with the premiscy of jurisdiction, but confesses a primacy of honor.

1083
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:15,199
That's our view, and agappe if it might not be

1084
01:12:15,319 --> 01:12:20,279
recognized as a formula that adequately reflects the position that

1085
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:29,079
Rome occupies. So it's not binding upon the churches. Right,

1086
01:12:29,359 --> 01:12:33,199
we should not choose the maximum road of Vatican One,

1087
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,520
and we needn't expect anything more than was operant in

1088
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:46,199
the first millennium. What here he is admitting. He's going

1089
01:12:46,279 --> 01:12:48,680
to admit that in the first millennium of the Church,

1090
01:12:57,000 --> 01:13:04,600
in the first millennium, the operation of the Roman bishop.

1091
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:14,680
Speaker 2: Come on.

1092
01:13:20,159 --> 01:13:22,279
Speaker 1: The operation of the Roman bishop in the first millennium

1093
01:13:22,560 --> 01:13:27,880
was not according to Vatican. In other words, Vatican One

1094
01:13:28,319 --> 01:13:32,920
is not how Rome operated. Yes, exactly, that's what Orthodox

1095
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:37,840
have been saying for a thousand years. Thank you. So

1096
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:44,239
here is Benedict. He's going to admit that the Vatican

1097
01:13:44,279 --> 01:13:47,520
One definition of the papacy was not how the Church

1098
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:55,840
historically functioned. In other words, Rome must not require more

1099
01:13:56,079 --> 01:13:58,920
from the East with respect to the doctrine of the

1100
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:05,000
premiscy then has been formulated and was lived in the

1101
01:14:05,039 --> 01:14:11,239
first millennium. When Patriarch Athanagaris, on the occasion of post

1102
01:14:11,319 --> 01:14:14,159
visit to the Finar, designated him as the successor of Peter,

1103
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:18,800
most esteemed amongst us as one who presides in charity.

1104
01:14:19,359 --> 01:14:23,760
This great church leader was expressing the ecclesial content of

1105
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:26,880
the doction premiacy as it was known in the first millennium.

1106
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:32,880
Rome must not ask for more. Booh yeah, So here's Ratzinger.

1107
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:37,560
The supposed trad admitting that Vatican One was not the

1108
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:40,479
way the Church operated in the first millennium, and that

1109
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:47,880
this tradition is absolutely correct, and that's what had been

1110
01:14:48,079 --> 01:14:53,840
formulated in the first millennium. Absolutely By the way, he

1111
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,359
goes on to say all kinds of even crazier stuff,

1112
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:01,039
especially his quote about how the resurrection isn't that's a

1113
01:15:01,199 --> 01:15:03,800
doozy from rent Singer. Anyway, We're not going to go

1114
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:06,399
in all that today. But now we bring all that

1115
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:11,560
up to point out that that even amongst your supposed

1116
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:17,000
greatest theologians, the admission is there that the Church of

1117
01:15:17,039 --> 01:15:20,880
the first millennium did not operate according to the definition

1118
01:15:21,039 --> 01:15:26,279
of the Vatican ie monarchy. Of course not. We know that.

1119
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:33,600
We have argued that for a thousand years. We know

1120
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:37,960
that because Revelation says that it didn't operate that one.

1121
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:41,520
Let's look at the Council of Jerusalem first Synod. Now

1122
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:44,760
the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter,

1123
01:15:45,039 --> 01:15:47,319
and when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up

1124
01:15:47,359 --> 01:15:49,960
and said, men and brethren, you know that a good

1125
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,119
while ago God chose among us that my mouth would

1126
01:15:53,359 --> 01:15:55,560
be the means by which the Gentiles should hear the

1127
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,720
words of the Gospel believe. So, God, who knows the heart,

1128
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,439
acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as

1129
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:06,039
he did to us to the Jews, right, and he

1130
01:16:06,159 --> 01:16:08,680
made no distinction between them and us, purifying their hearts

1131
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,359
by faith. Now, therefore, why do you test God but

1132
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:17,640
putting a yoke on the next of the disciples that

1133
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,000
they are not able to bear. But we believe that

1134
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:22,760
through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall

1135
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,800
be saved in the same manner as these. So this

1136
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,600
is the beginning of the council. The council opens a

1137
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:32,840
uh oh, Peter spoke, I guess that means Vatican One's

1138
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:37,199
definitions are all true. Because Peter spoke, no, let's read on.

1139
01:16:38,199 --> 01:16:41,199
Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas

1140
01:16:41,239 --> 01:16:43,520
and Paul declaring, how the miracles and wonders this is

1141
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:46,319
about whether Gentiles needed to keep Mosaic law right. So

1142
01:16:46,399 --> 01:16:50,800
this is what the Jerusalem Council is about, right, And

1143
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:53,800
so Barnabas and Paul had worked miracles amongst the Gentiles,

1144
01:16:53,920 --> 01:16:57,840
and after that they became silent. James answered and said, so,

1145
01:16:58,079 --> 01:17:01,119
James is the Bishop of Jerusalem. Okay, so now we

1146
01:17:01,119 --> 01:17:03,600
wouldn't we don't argue that. Oh well, okay, so Peter

1147
01:17:03,840 --> 01:17:06,800
spoke first, so he's number one. Barnabas and Paul are

1148
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:11,000
then the secondary apostles right after Peter, and then James speaks.

1149
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,119
The point is not you can't read into the ordering this.

1150
01:17:14,239 --> 01:17:16,720
Romancas love to do this where they say like, because

1151
01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:20,720
you know Peter said it first, then he gets the

1152
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:23,600
special gift. Okay, but what a minute, Peter walked on

1153
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:27,840
water and then failed. I don't see any Roman Catholics

1154
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:31,359
reading into some mystical meaning about how that means to

1155
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:34,000
see if Peter is going to fail when Peter was

1156
01:17:34,039 --> 01:17:35,760
trying to walk on water. No, no, no, it's a

1157
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,359
very selective reading of these mystical meanings. Right, So so

1158
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,760
Peter spoke first there for Vatican one. Oh wait a minute, here,

1159
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:48,840
let's read on. Men and brethren, listen to me. Simon

1160
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:51,439
has declared how God did at first visit the Gentiles

1161
01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:53,640
to take out a people for his name. And with

1162
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:57,479
these words the prophets agree, and then he quotes the Psalm,

1163
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:00,560
or he quotes David. After this, I will return and

1164
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,439
the tabernacle of David will be rebuilt. Excuse me, it's

1165
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:06,279
Amos nine, not David Amos nine eleven. We did a

1166
01:18:06,359 --> 01:18:09,039
talk on Amos. Go listen to that, so that the

1167
01:18:09,119 --> 01:18:11,560
rest of the gentiles might seek the Lord. Right, So

1168
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:13,720
the gentiles being brought into the church predicted in Amos.

1169
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:17,399
He's arguing known to God from eternity or all of

1170
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:23,239
his works. Therefore I judge. Therefore, I judge that we

1171
01:18:23,319 --> 01:18:28,720
should not trouble those from among the gentiles. And then

1172
01:18:28,760 --> 01:18:32,199
he lists basically what were the statements to Noah. Right,

1173
01:18:32,239 --> 01:18:36,399
So the reaffirmation of the Noea covenants here, that that's

1174
01:18:37,039 --> 01:18:39,279
really all that's necessary if the gentiles are going to

1175
01:18:39,359 --> 01:18:43,079
come into the Church, that they abstained from things polluted

1176
01:18:43,079 --> 01:18:47,640
by immorality or polluted by idols, from sexual reality, from

1177
01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:51,800
things strangled, and from eating blood. For Moses has had

1178
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,840
through many generations, those who preach him in every city,

1179
01:18:55,039 --> 01:18:59,119
being read in the synagogues every Sabbath. Then it pleased

1180
01:18:59,119 --> 01:19:02,359
all the apostles and with the whole church to send men,

1181
01:19:03,239 --> 01:19:05,560
to send chosen men of their own company with Paul.

1182
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:11,680
And they have a letter right about the decree of

1183
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:16,680
the council. Nothing about Peter presiding as pre eminent. They're

1184
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:20,199
in Jerusalem. The final judgment appears to be given by

1185
01:19:20,239 --> 01:19:24,760
it James. Therefore I judge this and then the decree

1186
01:19:26,119 --> 01:19:30,520
early canon law. Nothing about how this decision was made

1187
01:19:31,119 --> 01:19:38,560
with the universal approval of Peter. Right, it's collegial Peter,

1188
01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:44,119
Paul James. The apostles are all making this decision because

1189
01:19:44,119 --> 01:19:50,000
it's a college of apostles. Where is the premissy of

1190
01:19:50,079 --> 01:19:54,680
Peter here? Where does this anything like Vatican One? No,

1191
01:19:55,119 --> 01:19:59,000
not at all, nothing like it. So that's why the

1192
01:19:59,119 --> 01:20:04,239
doctrine evolves to get to the point of Vatican One.

1193
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:06,840
And the Roman Catholics know this, and that's why they

1194
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:12,079
have the idea of doctrinal development, the development and evolution

1195
01:20:12,239 --> 01:20:15,119
of doctrine. In fact, they make the argument that, well, yes,

1196
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:19,079
it's true that at that time the doctrine of patrine

1197
01:20:19,159 --> 01:20:22,319
premascy was not what it was that Vatican won. But

1198
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:25,399
that's because it's like a seed that's planted and the

1199
01:20:25,479 --> 01:20:29,439
seed grows into a tree. Initially it's a seed becomes

1200
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:33,479
a tree. That's literally how they argue for that. I mean,

1201
01:20:33,560 --> 01:20:36,319
it's like Bonker's level, right, And we just saw rat

1202
01:20:36,359 --> 01:20:39,359
Singer says, come on, Let's be honest, it wasn't that way.

1203
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:45,520
Now we have to understand that this is not just

1204
01:20:46,279 --> 01:20:50,359
about a question of this guy having the right to

1205
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:55,560
decide doctrines, because that's not what the doctrine of papal

1206
01:20:55,600 --> 01:21:00,920
infallibility and supremacy comes to mean. It moves from this

1207
01:21:02,039 --> 01:21:06,479
to being galactic god emperor and the guy who can,

1208
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:10,359
at the time of unum sanctum excommunicate anybody in the

1209
01:21:10,439 --> 01:21:12,880
world and presumably the entire world if you wanted to.

1210
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:16,960
And they even have ridiculous debates about this, like what

1211
01:21:17,079 --> 01:21:20,520
if the pope excommunicated everybody? But I mean there's literally

1212
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:24,439
like absurd level debates in you know, like scholastic neo

1213
01:21:24,479 --> 01:21:29,640
scholastic type stuff like this. It's laughable. But so it

1214
01:21:29,760 --> 01:21:33,119
moves from that to Peter having not just a spiritual

1215
01:21:33,159 --> 01:21:37,840
authority but a literal universal world leap. If you enjoy

1216
01:21:37,920 --> 01:21:40,760
this video, be sure and take use of the promo

1217
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:44,079
code for the show sponsor. For this channel sponsor, which

1218
01:21:44,199 --> 01:21:47,359
is chalk dot com. That's choq dot com. You can

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01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:50,880
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01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:54,359
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1222
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1224
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:04,479
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1225
01:22:04,520 --> 01:22:08,479
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1226
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:11,000
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01:22:11,119 --> 01:22:14,760
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1228
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:20,199
subscriptions on those excellent supplements. Health is absolutely necessary in

1229
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:24,800
combating the toxic culture that we live in. I also

1230
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:26,760
would say, if you want to get access to my books,

1231
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:28,760
head on over to the shop at my website and

1232
01:22:28,840 --> 01:22:33,079
get signed copies there. Thank you. Our authority that he

1233
01:22:33,319 --> 01:22:35,520
is over every monarch in the world, and in fact,

1234
01:22:35,720 --> 01:22:39,399
every monarch eventually has to submit to him. Now again,

1235
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,399
we believe that the Church is superior to the monarchy,

1236
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:45,880
there's no question about that. But the idea that Peter

1237
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:51,560
is supreme over all monarchs and that ultimately what Jesus

1238
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:55,319
is saying here is that Peter's descendants in the papacy

1239
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,279
are to live in giant palaces with the Vatican Bank.

1240
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:01,520
That's what this justify. Okay, so this is not just

1241
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:06,920
a theological quibble. This evolves to be galactic God emperor,

1242
01:23:08,079 --> 01:23:12,399
and that's why it's insane. It's madness. And all of

1243
01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:17,199
the sata's the set of acontess clowns. They realize how

1244
01:23:17,239 --> 01:23:20,039
crazy all this is, but they believe it all the

1245
01:23:20,079 --> 01:23:24,640
way up until point X y Z right, and sate

1246
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:26,760
of acontasm is not going to get you anywhere you

1247
01:23:26,880 --> 01:23:31,880
are going to be. You will despair eventually because sixty

1248
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:35,239
years no pope. Now there's never going to be a pope. Oh,

1249
01:23:35,319 --> 01:23:37,479
Mary's going to come and there'll be an apparition and

1250
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:41,560
she'll restore the papacy. Oh, it's the end of time.

1251
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:44,000
That's why there's no papacy. No, no, sorry, But Vatican

1252
01:23:44,039 --> 01:23:48,760
one says that the successors of Peter continue until the

1253
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:52,159
end of time, and the Church, if the gates of

1254
01:23:52,239 --> 01:23:55,680
Hell cannot prevail against it. In the Romankeelic view, necessitates

1255
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:59,920
there being a living magisterium in communion with that guy

1256
01:24:00,319 --> 01:24:03,079
in Rome in that chair until the end of the world.

1257
01:24:03,159 --> 01:24:06,239
That's what it says. It doesn't say at the end

1258
01:24:06,279 --> 01:24:08,560
of the world it's done, and then there's one hundred

1259
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:12,039
years of no pope. No, it says until the very end.

1260
01:24:14,319 --> 01:24:17,560
So you have to be in communion with Frank to

1261
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:21,359
be a Roman Catholic. Ah. But wait, Frank and Vatican

1262
01:24:21,399 --> 01:24:25,880
two have obviously contradicted everything that came before. Oh well,

1263
01:24:25,920 --> 01:24:28,680
let's invent a host of myths by which we can

1264
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:34,680
mentally gymnasticize and soothe our conscience and make ourselves feel

1265
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,079
like we're still Roman Catholic even though we're not in

1266
01:24:37,119 --> 01:24:41,479
commune with anybody. We're LARPing online, or we are attached

1267
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:45,079
to some group over there that doesn't even have a bishop,

1268
01:24:45,239 --> 01:24:48,199
or literally that thinks that all of the bishops have died.

1269
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:50,439
There's no bishops left in the world. Maybe a priest

1270
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:56,640
or too. If the church has died, then the church

1271
01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:59,600
has died and you're not in the church. Time to

1272
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:03,039
rethink things. Bro, it's the wrong sect that you're in.

1273
01:25:04,159 --> 01:25:06,199
That's why you're caught up in an end Times cult.

1274
01:25:06,199 --> 01:25:08,199
You might as well be at John Hagen's church, right.

1275
01:25:15,239 --> 01:25:18,439
And it all started from the stupidity of the circularity

1276
01:25:18,760 --> 01:25:23,960
of how we base our beliefs and our claims on

1277
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:29,880
philosophical nonsense, the idea that the papacy is proven from

1278
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:32,960
the Bible, but the Bible is confirmed by the papacy

1279
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:39,399
in the fifth century. It's circular. So what if it's circular, Well,

1280
01:25:39,920 --> 01:25:45,279
classical foundationalism doesn't allow for its circular arguments. And if

1281
01:25:45,279 --> 01:25:48,079
you're to give up your classical foundationalism, you can't be

1282
01:25:48,119 --> 01:25:51,159
a Thomist anymore. Okay, well i'll be. I'll be a

1283
01:25:51,239 --> 01:25:53,399
non Thomas Droman Catholic, and I'll go to a Byzantine

1284
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:57,279
right church. Why do you care about being in communion

1285
01:25:57,319 --> 01:26:02,319
with people who go to mosque services, who pray towards Mecca.

1286
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:08,840
Pope Urban the Second called a crusade Benedict and his

1287
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:16,479
whole crew attend mosque services and pray towards Mecca. It's

1288
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:22,640
not the true religion. It's not authentic Christianity. It's an aberration. Again,

1289
01:26:23,359 --> 01:26:28,119
why do you think after this this kerfluffle around the

1290
01:26:28,199 --> 01:26:33,520
year one thousand, soon after that, the Church of Rome,

1291
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,079
this is what you guys believe, it moved to Auvignon,

1292
01:26:37,239 --> 01:26:44,079
France in a palace. So Jesus's intention was for the

1293
01:26:44,239 --> 01:26:47,079
See of Peter to be in Auvignon, France for one

1294
01:26:47,119 --> 01:26:51,159
hundred years, with three different guys claiming to be the

1295
01:26:51,279 --> 01:26:58,119
legitimate successor to Peter in France. In France, and you

1296
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:02,479
have this mythical idea that the Roman Catholic Church has

1297
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:09,760
consistently maintained this undefiled unity throughout history and wasn't a

1298
01:27:09,840 --> 01:27:13,640
tool of politics. Give me a fucking break, dude, total

1299
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:21,039
lying to yourself, lying to yourself. Everybody knows the Sea

1300
01:27:21,079 --> 01:27:27,960
of Peter is not in France because a bishopric is

1301
01:27:28,000 --> 01:27:32,359
supposed to be where the bishopric what's set up? Okay,

1302
01:27:33,359 --> 01:27:37,880
if the patriarch of Moscow comes to America, America doesn't

1303
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:44,039
become the seat of the patriarchy of Moscow. Right now,

1304
01:27:44,159 --> 01:27:45,720
let's talk about some of the next that some of

1305
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:48,399
the more so. Now then we see the So that's

1306
01:27:48,439 --> 01:27:51,640
the problem of the circularity. That's why this position. Remember

1307
01:27:52,359 --> 01:27:55,319
this position. The whole point of it is to make

1308
01:27:55,399 --> 01:27:58,039
it easy for the Roman Catholic to know the dogma.

1309
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:03,000
It begs the question. It moves the problem back a step.

1310
01:28:04,720 --> 01:28:07,680
How do you know that you are properly interpreting when

1311
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:13,000
it is the ordinary, universal, infallible magistarium Because you see, ordinary, universal,

1312
01:28:13,119 --> 01:28:20,359
infallible magisterium comprises what the Church has always taught. Well,

1313
01:28:20,399 --> 01:28:23,199
that requires a lot of reading, doesn't it. That requires you,

1314
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:27,159
as an individual knowing a lot about Church history, and

1315
01:28:27,279 --> 01:28:29,439
a lot about the Church fathers, and a lot about

1316
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:32,439
all these endless papal decrees and all of these endless

1317
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:36,560
canon law and all this endless ecumenical council stuff that

1318
01:28:36,680 --> 01:28:38,640
takes a long time, doesn't it. Yeah, right, that's why

1319
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:43,560
people go get doctorates in theology. But I thought that

1320
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:45,880
the point of the papacy was to make it simple

1321
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:50,000
so that the average Catholic can know what's true and

1322
01:28:50,039 --> 01:28:55,640
what's false, what's heresy, what's orthodox. Really it does that

1323
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:58,039
really work? Though? I mean, it sounds good on paper,

1324
01:28:58,079 --> 01:29:04,680
condu doesn't it. But wait a minute, when we start

1325
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:08,039
looking at the actual workings. That's why I read thank

1326
01:29:08,079 --> 01:29:11,119
you to Lewis. We re uploaded that that clip from

1327
01:29:11,119 --> 01:29:14,520
that old talk. It's right below this video uploaded. The

1328
01:29:15,039 --> 01:29:20,199
papal circularity problem within the realm, the confines of Rometholicism,

1329
01:29:20,560 --> 01:29:24,000
the problem is still there, people chasing their tails because

1330
01:29:24,039 --> 01:29:27,439
when you actually want to try to apply this Roman

1331
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:29,960
Catholics can't agree or figure out what's dogma and what's not.

1332
01:29:30,199 --> 01:29:33,000
Especially since Vatican Two, it's nothing but sixty years of confusion.

1333
01:29:33,399 --> 01:29:36,000
And it's not just sixty years of confusion. There's confusion

1334
01:29:36,199 --> 01:29:39,560
before Vatican two. There's confusion at the time of Vatican One.

1335
01:29:41,119 --> 01:29:46,159
What is doctrinal development? What does that mean? The evolution

1336
01:29:46,319 --> 01:29:51,520
of dogma? What and why is Ratzinger saying that Vatican

1337
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:53,279
One was not the mindset of the church in the

1338
01:29:53,279 --> 01:29:57,520
first millennium. And you'll say, yeah, but that's his private opinion.

1339
01:29:57,600 --> 01:29:59,479
It doesn't matter if it's your private opinion or where

1340
01:29:59,520 --> 01:30:04,840
you write it. If it's wrong, private opinion or being

1341
01:30:04,920 --> 01:30:10,119
wrong does not exclude a person in traditional Catholicism from heresy. Now,

1342
01:30:10,199 --> 01:30:12,239
they might not be a bad willed heretic, They might

1343
01:30:12,279 --> 01:30:15,319
be a material heretic or whatever. They might not be

1344
01:30:15,399 --> 01:30:19,720
formally heretical, they might not be fully heretical, or event

1345
01:30:19,800 --> 01:30:24,039
all the different terms in scholastic neologisms you want, doesn't matter,

1346
01:30:24,439 --> 01:30:27,960
because again, the point of all of this, the point

1347
01:30:28,039 --> 01:30:30,920
of dogma, the point of denzing, or the point of

1348
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:32,880
all this was supposed to be so that we could

1349
01:30:32,960 --> 01:30:39,119
know what the dogma was. But then when we start

1350
01:30:39,239 --> 01:30:43,199
buying all the encyclicals and we buy Denzinger and we

1351
01:30:43,279 --> 01:30:47,079
start reading it, you start feeling like a bit of

1352
01:30:47,119 --> 01:30:49,880
a Protestant, don't you, Because you're not a Protestant with

1353
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:53,880
the Bible anymore. You're a Protestant with the papal encyclicals.

1354
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:57,520
And that's why Vatican One didn't just say that you

1355
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:00,880
have to be in communion with the history work Magisterium.

1356
01:31:01,239 --> 01:31:03,079
It says that you have to be in communion with

1357
01:31:03,199 --> 01:31:07,399
the living successors of the Bishop of Rome. That are

1358
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:10,680
the guy over in Rome, not the guy in Kansas,

1359
01:31:11,159 --> 01:31:13,960
not the guy in Fillmore, New York. Not those guys,

1360
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:18,319
the living successors until the end of the world, and

1361
01:31:18,439 --> 01:31:20,079
not until the end of the world, and then one hundred,

1362
01:31:20,119 --> 01:31:23,359
two hundred, three hundred years of no pope. Obviously that's

1363
01:31:23,399 --> 01:31:29,159
a sect. Obviously that's not the church. Now let's get

1364
01:31:29,199 --> 01:31:32,319
to some of the critiques of our review. You guys

1365
01:31:32,399 --> 01:31:36,760
don't have a way to know what the ecumenical councils were. Now,

1366
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:42,079
first of all, again let's take just the bold faced

1367
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:44,399
claim that we know what the councils are on the

1368
01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:47,319
basis of what the Pope says. Excuse me. The Pope

1369
01:31:48,199 --> 01:31:51,600
declared at the eighth Synod, the eighth Eastern Synod, not

1370
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:55,159
the eighth Latin Synod, the eighth Eastern Synod, that the

1371
01:31:55,199 --> 01:31:58,960
philioque should not be used, and he ratified that eighth

1372
01:31:59,079 --> 01:32:03,960
Eastern Synod, that is proven in the essay below. So

1373
01:32:05,159 --> 01:32:08,880
just saying the pope, you guys don't follow John the

1374
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:13,920
eighth who said to not use the philioquay, and then

1375
01:32:13,960 --> 01:32:17,199
the Philioka was added, and then now at Vatican two

1376
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:21,560
for the purpose of the Uniates, even the Uniates don't

1377
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:25,359
say philioqua in the Creed. This is ridiculous. This is

1378
01:32:25,399 --> 01:32:29,479
nothing but a dimission of our view. And the schismatic

1379
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:35,119
weirdos who act like all of the Eastern Catholics are

1380
01:32:35,199 --> 01:32:40,960
crazy because they now revere Pope Gregory Palomas after John

1381
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,199
Paul the Second or whoever said that it's okay through

1382
01:32:43,199 --> 01:32:47,399
Revere Gregory Palomos. It makes no sense because Barlem and

1383
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:51,319
Gregory had a debate and they don't believe the same things.

1384
01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:55,039
You can't believe and not believe the philioque right, it's

1385
01:32:55,079 --> 01:32:59,359
not they're mutually exclusive views. You can't believe in absolutely

1386
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:04,800
simplicity and believe in the uncreated energies. They're mutually exclusive views.

1387
01:33:05,239 --> 01:33:10,000
That's why there were synods declared. I mean, in the

1388
01:33:10,079 --> 01:33:15,399
Rabic Catholic view, orthodoxy is schismatic and heretical. You can't

1389
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:18,159
reconcile it. And if you're a UNI eight, you have

1390
01:33:18,239 --> 01:33:20,840
to accept the Council of Trent and purgatory. Now most

1391
01:33:20,880 --> 01:33:23,039
of them don't. That's why it doesn't make any sense.

1392
01:33:23,319 --> 01:33:26,000
So all the union Ads ought to be schismatic because

1393
01:33:26,039 --> 01:33:28,800
they don't accept Trent. Most of them they don't accept

1394
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:31,880
all this filioquay nonsense. They didn't recite in the Creed.

1395
01:33:33,199 --> 01:33:34,560
How do you have the same faith if you get

1396
01:33:34,560 --> 01:33:37,960
two different creeds. Obviously it's not the right church. You've

1397
01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:41,399
got different creeds in your church. Your church says the

1398
01:33:41,479 --> 01:33:44,119
creed without the filioquay is okay for the Uniates. The

1399
01:33:44,199 --> 01:33:46,920
Creed with the filioquay is okay for the Latins. That's

1400
01:33:46,960 --> 01:33:52,479
two different creeds, dummies, and Constantinople Nicino Politan Constantinople creed

1401
01:33:54,319 --> 01:34:02,279
Niceno Constantinopolitan creed says not to change it. That's why

1402
01:34:03,159 --> 01:34:07,159
if you read the drag Us essay that I put below,

1403
01:34:07,439 --> 01:34:11,960
he shows you that even up to the eighth, even

1404
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:14,880
up to Pope John the eighth, there was the agreement

1405
01:34:15,800 --> 01:34:20,520
on the basis of the Canons of contentinoble One that

1406
01:34:20,600 --> 01:34:25,720
you can't write a new Creed. And I went by

1407
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:28,560
the way, and I looked up Roman Catholic scholars who

1408
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:31,760
admit this. They say, yes, John the eighth did affirm that,

1409
01:34:32,239 --> 01:34:33,680
and then they turn around and say, but yeah, but

1410
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:38,399
so what because later on we changed our mind. This

1411
01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:42,640
position is madness. It's just what it's sola papa. That's

1412
01:34:42,640 --> 01:34:46,399
all Roman Cathosism is. It's not concerned with tradition. It's

1413
01:34:46,439 --> 01:34:49,840
not concerned with ecumenical councils, it's not concerned with collegiality,

1414
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:52,119
it's not concerned with the Bible. The only thing it's

1415
01:34:52,199 --> 01:34:55,000
concerned with is the papacy. The only thing that they

1416
01:34:55,079 --> 01:34:57,600
do apologetics for is the papacy. They'll talk about these

1417
01:34:57,640 --> 01:35:01,039
other things, but their argument in any of these realms,

1418
01:35:01,439 --> 01:35:04,119
whether it's the phillyoqui, whether it's absolute simplicity, whether it's

1419
01:35:04,159 --> 01:35:06,239
any of these things, they just go back to the papacy.

1420
01:35:06,359 --> 01:35:08,880
Mc key's, m key's, m key's keys mac kei's, because

1421
01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:13,800
that's all they are is apologists for the papacy, because

1422
01:35:13,800 --> 01:35:18,600
there is a vicious need to vindicate this gigantic man

1423
01:35:18,680 --> 01:35:24,800
made system, which is obviously an aberration. Now. When Paul

1424
01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:28,039
wrote to the Church at Rome, he warned them that

1425
01:35:28,159 --> 01:35:33,239
they could be grafted out. It's an odd thing to

1426
01:35:33,319 --> 01:35:35,680
write to the Church at Rome, isn't it? In Chapter eleven,

1427
01:35:36,079 --> 01:35:40,239
beware you gentiles that you might be grafted out? Does Paul?

1428
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:45,000
Does Paul conceive of, uh, the the Jews in Rome

1429
01:35:45,119 --> 01:35:48,000
like theyre being a Jewish pope, and that because you

1430
01:35:48,079 --> 01:35:51,199
know they won't be, they won't be grafted out. I mean,

1431
01:35:51,199 --> 01:35:52,960
I'm just trying to think of the mental gymnastics that

1432
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:55,239
a Roman Catholic would say to explain this. Well, Paul

1433
01:35:55,399 --> 01:35:58,439
is only speaking of the gentiles in the Church of

1434
01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:02,239
Rome being grafted out. Of course, because of the Petrine

1435
01:36:02,279 --> 01:36:05,800
promise and supremacy, there will always be a Jew there

1436
01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:08,279
in Rome that will never be cast down. No, this

1437
01:36:08,399 --> 01:36:10,760
is nonsense. Come on, he's saying. He's warning the Church

1438
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:15,479
at Rome, which is almost all gentile. Right you too,

1439
01:36:16,439 --> 01:36:19,800
you gentile, gentile church at Rome, you can be grafted

1440
01:36:19,840 --> 01:36:23,760
out too, just like Jews were. If you're haughty. Very

1441
01:36:23,840 --> 01:36:27,079
interesting that Paul would warn the Church of Rome of

1442
01:36:27,199 --> 01:36:32,760
being haughty, prideful and being cast out. Well, they had

1443
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:36,159
reason to be prideful because they were doubly apostolic. As

1444
01:36:36,239 --> 01:36:45,039
Irenaeus says, No mention anywhere of divine infallibility being the

1445
01:36:45,119 --> 01:36:51,600
basis for their pride only because they're doubly Apostolic, and

1446
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:56,960
every Orthodox icon makes this point. Right about Rome, it's

1447
01:36:58,359 --> 01:37:00,600
Peter and Paul, the feasts of Saint Peter and Paul,

1448
01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:08,039
and they are both holding in our church. The let's see,

1449
01:37:08,039 --> 01:37:11,239
I'm gonna get I gonna put a thing on the

1450
01:37:11,279 --> 01:37:17,520
screen here for everybody. They're both holding the church, all right.

1451
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:22,800
It's not Peter holding Paul holding the church. Peter and

1452
01:37:22,880 --> 01:37:29,199
Paul have absolute equality. Peter might have a placement of

1453
01:37:29,319 --> 01:37:33,720
being first, but absolutely nothing in the New Testament anywhere

1454
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:40,039
about the supreme, jurisdictional god powers of Peter and the

1455
01:37:40,159 --> 01:37:43,279
Roman Catholic said know that. They say, yeah, but it developed,

1456
01:37:43,439 --> 01:37:47,439
it's a thing that developed. No, it doesn't. Our theology

1457
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:50,079
doesn't develop. That's why you guys don't even care about

1458
01:37:50,920 --> 01:37:55,560
the first thousand years of the creed, I mean of

1459
01:37:55,640 --> 01:37:57,800
the church, the first thousand years. You guys don't even

1460
01:37:58,159 --> 01:38:01,680
They don't even care. All they care about is what

1461
01:38:01,840 --> 01:38:05,640
the popes have said. They don't do theology, they do

1462
01:38:07,239 --> 01:38:11,159
papal apologetics. Now let's look at Nicias Canon six, because

1463
01:38:12,000 --> 01:38:15,159
this is one of the best clearest arguments, and we'll

1464
01:38:15,199 --> 01:38:17,720
go through all of the casustri and all of the

1465
01:38:17,920 --> 01:38:21,279
endless mental gymnastics that they use on this one as well.

1466
01:38:22,319 --> 01:38:24,600
What does Canon six of Nicias say, let the ancient

1467
01:38:24,800 --> 01:38:30,399
customs customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail that the

1468
01:38:30,479 --> 01:38:34,439
Bishop of Alexandria has jurisdiction in all these since the

1469
01:38:34,880 --> 01:38:41,239
like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also likewise

1470
01:38:41,640 --> 01:38:47,640
in Antioch and the other provinces. Could it be any clearer?

1471
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:54,840
Absolutely nothing like Vatican one here this conciliar statement that

1472
01:38:55,039 --> 01:38:58,319
Rome accepts. They accept Canon six unless they just arbitrarily

1473
01:38:58,399 --> 01:39:00,560
decide to reject it. Right, I mean, part of what

1474
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:07,359
was ecumenically accepted is that the honor given to certain

1475
01:39:08,239 --> 01:39:10,439
preeminent cities. This is going to get us to the

1476
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:13,319
point of talking about pentarchy, because pentarchy is nothing but

1477
01:39:14,000 --> 01:39:17,159
a canonical honor. Has nothing to do with how we

1478
01:39:17,279 --> 01:39:19,680
determine well, I want to say, nothing to do, but

1479
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:22,560
it has nothing to do with what makes something religiously

1480
01:39:22,600 --> 01:39:24,960
true or false. We'll put it that way. It certainly

1481
01:39:25,039 --> 01:39:28,079
goes into when we look at councils and when we

1482
01:39:28,159 --> 01:39:31,720
look at synods. Right, was it recepted, did important churches

1483
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:33,920
receive it? But guess what this is what no Roman

1484
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:39,800
Catholic can grasp. Every bishop is equal. Even if Bartholomew

1485
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:43,239
suddenly thinks that he has papal powers, it doesn't matter.

1486
01:39:44,199 --> 01:39:49,800
Everybody knows that even these positions of patriarch are made

1487
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,640
up by the councils. They're honors given by the councils,

1488
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:56,239
and they move. They're movable. Sometimes there's a patriarch that

1489
01:39:56,359 --> 01:39:59,760
created it a council, sometimes there's one that's moved elsewhere.

1490
01:39:59,800 --> 01:40:03,359
In preeminence or honor, they're just titles of honor because

1491
01:40:03,439 --> 01:40:10,239
of these being important cities. The patriarch of Constantinople has

1492
01:40:10,399 --> 01:40:20,479
absolutely no more power than bishop whoever of po Dunk Tennessee. Literally.

1493
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:24,000
I know that's hard for you Romanchathlics to fathom, but

1494
01:40:24,319 --> 01:40:27,920
pentarchy is no magical formula for Orthodoxy has nothing to

1495
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:30,840
do with the magical formula of five by which we

1496
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:33,479
determine if the three of the five have done it

1497
01:40:34,239 --> 01:40:38,359
fought no total nonsense, total ignorance. By the way, the

1498
01:40:38,399 --> 01:40:41,079
fact that these people making these arguments are going to

1499
01:40:41,199 --> 01:40:44,319
this level of stuff shows they have absolutely no idea

1500
01:40:44,399 --> 01:40:46,319
what they're talking about. They're just making this stuff as

1501
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:48,279
they're making it up as they go. They're reading like

1502
01:40:48,319 --> 01:40:52,600
the most basic bitch stuff, right, Catholic answers cut and

1503
01:40:52,760 --> 01:41:00,119
paste to answer this stuff. It's childish, childish. Notice that

1504
01:41:00,199 --> 01:41:02,920
the Canon says that it is a custom. It doesn't

1505
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:06,600
say de jura or dvina. It's not it's not divine law.

1506
01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:10,560
It's a custom. And the jurisdiction of the Bishop of

1507
01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:14,720
Rome is likened to the custom of the jurisdiction of

1508
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:18,359
the Bishop of Alexandria and Antioch. Now they know that

1509
01:41:18,439 --> 01:41:20,720
this is problematic. So what they do is they say, well,

1510
01:41:21,680 --> 01:41:26,119
this is not talking about the universal jurisdiction of the

1511
01:41:26,159 --> 01:41:28,920
Bishop of Rome. This is only talking about the jurisdiction

1512
01:41:29,079 --> 01:41:33,600
that the Bishop of Rome has in Rome, because of

1513
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:40,720
course everybody knows the Bishop of Rome has a universal jurisdiction. Really, really,

1514
01:41:41,760 --> 01:41:46,119
why is that universal jurisdiction nowhere else in here? I mean,

1515
01:41:46,279 --> 01:41:50,079
this is a ridiculous comparison and a confusing comparison and

1516
01:41:50,119 --> 01:41:57,359
a nonsensical comparison. If everybody supposedly here understood that the

1517
01:41:57,520 --> 01:42:01,319
universal jurisdiction was just a given, come on, No, that's

1518
01:42:01,560 --> 01:42:06,119
extremely weak. Furthermore, when we read the fathers of this

1519
01:42:06,239 --> 01:42:09,640
time period, they don't teach the universal jurisdiction of the

1520
01:42:09,640 --> 01:42:12,640
Bishop of Rome. Now the Roman Catholics say, oh oh, yeah,

1521
01:42:12,680 --> 01:42:15,800
but Athenasious appeals to Rome. Appeals are made everywhere all

1522
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:18,960
the time, to different bishoprics, And if Athanasius thought Rome

1523
01:42:19,119 --> 01:42:21,319
was Orthodox, then it makes sense for him to appeal there.

1524
01:42:21,720 --> 01:42:23,640
But appeals are made all the time to all kinds

1525
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:26,039
of different places. So the fact that an appeal is

1526
01:42:26,119 --> 01:42:29,800
made is not a proof that they believed the Bishop

1527
01:42:29,800 --> 01:42:34,720
of Rome had universal, infallible, pre eminent authority over church

1528
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:38,199
and state. By the way, now when we start asking

1529
01:42:38,239 --> 01:42:42,000
about the universal power of the Bishop of Rome over

1530
01:42:42,079 --> 01:42:45,520
the state as well, guess what all of those documents

1531
01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:48,319
that were used to prop this up in the late

1532
01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:54,199
and early Middle Ages, like the Simachian the documents of

1533
01:42:54,199 --> 01:42:58,399
Pope Simachus, the Galesian de Credos, the Donation of Constantine.

1534
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:03,159
Nobody admits anymore that those are real. Everyone admits, the

1535
01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:06,720
Vatican admits. Every scholar in the world, the Vatican across

1536
01:43:06,800 --> 01:43:09,560
the board for a long time admits those are forgeries.

1537
01:43:11,439 --> 01:43:16,039
The documents of Pope Simachus, Galatian decredles, the false degredles,

1538
01:43:16,079 --> 01:43:20,279
as they're known as the Katina Greca that Thomas Aquinas

1539
01:43:20,359 --> 01:43:24,640
cites against the Greeks for the philioque and for the

1540
01:43:24,960 --> 01:43:27,279
premacy and infallibility of the Bishop of Rome. The Katina

1541
01:43:27,319 --> 01:43:30,359
Greca is a forgery. It's not real, and nobody believes

1542
01:43:30,359 --> 01:43:35,359
that Katina Greca. Now there might be some guy David

1543
01:43:35,439 --> 01:43:39,960
Bowden in his trailer in Kansas might believe in the

1544
01:43:40,039 --> 01:43:42,359
donation of Constantine, but nobody else in the world believes

1545
01:43:42,359 --> 01:43:45,640
in the donation of Constantine. And these were crucial to

1546
01:43:45,840 --> 01:43:52,159
proving the temporal supremacy of the Bishop of Rome for centuries. Now,

1547
01:43:52,199 --> 01:43:53,880
when I was a Roman Catholic, I thought, well, yeah,

1548
01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:56,760
but okay, but maybe it doesn't really matter because we

1549
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:00,000
don't really need that to prove what is a theological doctrine.

1550
01:44:00,319 --> 01:44:02,720
But it's not just a theological doctrine. That's the thing.

1551
01:44:03,279 --> 01:44:05,159
You see, this is not just confined to the room

1552
01:44:05,199 --> 01:44:10,960
of theology. This evolves into a temporal worldly empire with

1553
01:44:11,119 --> 01:44:15,079
a giant international bank. Let's look at the obvious here.

1554
01:44:16,319 --> 01:44:18,399
Do you think that's what did Jesus really have in mind,

1555
01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:22,920
that there be a giant international Vatican bank in palaces.

1556
01:44:24,319 --> 01:44:32,199
I don't think so. But just on its surface here

1557
01:44:32,319 --> 01:44:40,880
we see that very clearly. This canon likens the jurisdiction

1558
01:44:41,000 --> 01:44:46,760
of the Bishop of Rome to Egypt, to Antioch and Alexandria.

1559
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:50,079
Now these are important cities because these are cities where

1560
01:44:50,119 --> 01:44:56,760
the apostles set up early seas. These cities of themselves

1561
01:44:56,880 --> 01:45:00,239
possessed no magical authority. There's nothing magical about any of them.

1562
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:04,520
In fact, when we look at the Apocalypse in chapters

1563
01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:08,039
two and three, there are pre eminent cities there that

1564
01:45:08,800 --> 01:45:11,239
you know, John wrote the Letter to the Seven Churches, right,

1565
01:45:11,319 --> 01:45:13,439
the Apocalypse is a letter that's written to those seven

1566
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:17,359
churches of Asia Minor. Some of those churches don't exist anymore,

1567
01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:22,199
and that's because they were warned. In the letter to

1568
01:45:22,279 --> 01:45:26,119
those churches, Jesus says, if you are not faithful, I

1569
01:45:26,199 --> 01:45:30,359
will remove your lampstand. So there's no magical city anywhere

1570
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:34,439
that doesn't fall under the threat of the covenantal curses.

1571
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:36,840
By the way, did you notice that Jesus's statements to

1572
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:42,119
the seven churches perfectly mirror the covenantal curses of Deuteronomy. Yes,

1573
01:45:42,279 --> 01:45:45,520
Jesus reaffirms the Covenant curses and blessing, because he's the

1574
01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:48,439
one who gave the covenant curses and blessings in Deuteronomy,

1575
01:45:48,760 --> 01:45:51,319
and he does the exact same thing to New Israel

1576
01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:54,800
the Church in the Warnings and blessings to the seven

1577
01:45:54,880 --> 01:45:57,680
churches of Asia Minor. So when Jesus looks at the churches,

1578
01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:01,079
he says, you either be faithful, or I will remove

1579
01:46:01,079 --> 01:46:04,640
your lampstand. I will cut you out right, removing the lampstand,

1580
01:46:04,920 --> 01:46:07,720
being grafted out, being cut out, all the same types

1581
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:10,800
of statements, same thing Paul said in Rome's eleven. Therefore,

1582
01:46:10,920 --> 01:46:16,399
no magical, special, juridical, perfect infallible status to the Bishop

1583
01:46:16,399 --> 01:46:20,600
of Rome. And by the mere fact that at the

1584
01:46:20,680 --> 01:46:25,159
Sixth Council the entire Church thought that they could excommunicate

1585
01:46:25,199 --> 01:46:28,399
the Bishop of Rome, it proves that they didn't believe

1586
01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:34,000
in the Vatican One view of papal supremacy. It doesn't

1587
01:46:34,039 --> 01:46:38,399
matter whether Honorius was or was not Orthodox. Let's just

1588
01:46:38,479 --> 01:46:42,399
set that aside for a moment, because what is demonstrated

1589
01:46:43,239 --> 01:46:47,000
by the excommunication of Pope Honorius is that the mindset

1590
01:46:47,039 --> 01:46:50,920
of the entire Universal Church at the Sixth Council had

1591
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:57,039
no problem whatsoever doing it. Therefore, papal infallibility is not

1592
01:46:57,239 --> 01:47:02,359
the universal teaching of the Catholic Church. The Orthodox view

1593
01:47:02,680 --> 01:47:09,720
is the universal teaching of the Orthodox Catholic Church. So pentarchy,

1594
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:16,560
there's nothing magical about five cities or five patriarchs. I mean,

1595
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:20,800
the Moscow patriarchate didn't exist in the first century. In

1596
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:26,239
the third fourth century, right, other patriarchates come to be

1597
01:47:26,399 --> 01:47:31,279
that don't exist. The patriarch of Constantinople nowadays is a

1598
01:47:31,359 --> 01:47:34,039
title of honor, and he's not even a patriarchate of

1599
01:47:34,159 --> 01:47:39,439
a patriarchal city anymore. It doesn't even make any sense anymore.

1600
01:47:40,039 --> 01:47:43,079
It's just a title of honor that's retained, and he's

1601
01:47:43,159 --> 01:47:48,920
no different than my bishop. He may think, and as

1602
01:47:49,039 --> 01:47:53,000
many patriarchs and popes have thought. He may think. They

1603
01:47:53,079 --> 01:47:56,920
may think that they have universal bishopric powers and authority,

1604
01:47:56,960 --> 01:47:59,840
and that they're God emperors on earth. But that doesn't

1605
01:47:59,840 --> 01:48:07,399
make And again, let's take it back to the level

1606
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:12,560
of simplicity. Or if Vatican One's definition a papal supremacy

1607
01:48:13,720 --> 01:48:16,600
was true in the first century, and if that's how

1608
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:20,119
the true Church viewed it, why were all these church

1609
01:48:20,199 --> 01:48:24,199
fathers so varied in their view of Matthew sixteen. Why

1610
01:48:24,319 --> 01:48:28,960
wasn't it pretty universally understood? Why didn't everyone just write

1611
01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:31,079
to the Bishop of Rome? Why do you even have

1612
01:48:31,239 --> 01:48:35,760
a council? Councils are a waste of time an effort,

1613
01:48:36,199 --> 01:48:40,079
and in these centuries, traveling hundreds of miles to some

1614
01:48:40,239 --> 01:48:44,800
council it could be life threatening. What a ridiculous hassle.

1615
01:48:45,479 --> 01:48:48,399
Just write a letter and ask the bishop. Basically, the

1616
01:48:48,439 --> 01:48:51,000
Bishop Rome could just sit there reading letters all day,

1617
01:48:51,520 --> 01:48:54,239
or moving around to different churches, or send his leagates

1618
01:48:54,239 --> 01:48:57,640
out and they could just decide every matter. Why waste

1619
01:48:57,680 --> 01:49:01,079
the time of debating in a council? I mean, look

1620
01:49:01,079 --> 01:49:04,159
at the show image here, the ancient icons show a

1621
01:49:04,239 --> 01:49:07,800
bunch of people seated debating matters. What a waste of time?

1622
01:49:09,359 --> 01:49:13,720
Just as the pope, it's that simple. Why he doesn't

1623
01:49:13,800 --> 01:49:16,159
need all these other people. He is the super bishop.

1624
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:23,760
What a waste of time an effort? And what is

1625
01:49:23,880 --> 01:49:32,880
canon sick showing you it's very obviously collegial, it's limited jurisdictions.

1626
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,840
And you say, and the Catholic just make it up.

1627
01:49:36,880 --> 01:49:38,920
They just say, yeah, but it's understood that he also

1628
01:49:39,079 --> 01:49:42,199
had universal jurisdiction. No, it's not. Why is that now

1629
01:49:42,199 --> 01:49:49,399
we're mentioned, don't you think they would say that? And

1630
01:49:49,439 --> 01:49:51,520
they'll say yeah, But they sent it to the papal

1631
01:49:51,600 --> 01:49:57,359
legates for ratification. They sent it to every bishopric for ratification. Okay,

1632
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:01,239
Sonodal letters were sent to all of the bishoprics and

1633
01:50:01,319 --> 01:50:03,920
the key, especially the key metropolitan aias, because they were

1634
01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:06,760
the most important, because they were some of the biggest churches.

1635
01:50:11,399 --> 01:50:17,680
So ratification itself cannot function the way the Roman Catholic

1636
01:50:17,680 --> 01:50:19,760
wants to. For how we know what's the true and

1637
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:22,880
a false council. I'm gonna throw you for a loop

1638
01:50:22,920 --> 01:50:27,439
here because guess what, there's no external, magical, juridical formula

1639
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:32,079
anywhere that can solve the issue of true and false

1640
01:50:34,079 --> 01:50:38,760
because it begs the question ultimately if counsels are reflections

1641
01:50:39,199 --> 01:50:41,560
to the teaching of Revelation. In fact, the liturgy actually

1642
01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:43,199
two Sundays ago, if you were there, if you were

1643
01:50:43,199 --> 01:50:47,079
paying attention, you noticed that on or a Sunday of Orthodoxy,

1644
01:50:47,199 --> 01:50:51,159
the liturgy says we agree with the fathers and the

1645
01:50:51,239 --> 01:50:57,880
Holy Teachers when they agree with Revelation. That's in the liturgy. Now,

1646
01:50:57,960 --> 01:51:01,319
this is another thing that the Roman Catholics bamboozled by

1647
01:51:01,399 --> 01:51:03,960
this question of how will the faithfull know what's true

1648
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:06,079
and false if they don't have a pope. What do

1649
01:51:06,159 --> 01:51:08,199
you think the liturgy is for? The liturgy is there

1650
01:51:08,399 --> 01:51:10,720
to teach you and catechorize you. When you go to it,

1651
01:51:10,760 --> 01:51:12,880
and when you listen and you pay attention to what said,

1652
01:51:13,720 --> 01:51:18,399
you get the correct theology. The liturgy is the teacher.

1653
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:21,680
We don't need the pope when we have a local

1654
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:25,600
liturgy that perfectly embodies and teaches the wholeness of the faith.

1655
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:30,199
The wholeness and fullness of Catholicity is present in a

1656
01:51:30,319 --> 01:51:33,520
local bishop. And this is what they can't grasp, which

1657
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:39,560
is that Orthodoxy is local and decentralized. And we think

1658
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:43,359
Jesus set up a local, decentralized church. He didn't set

1659
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:47,439
up a superworld bureaucracy in one city that has a

1660
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:51,199
super spirit. Right, everybody else has a little bit of

1661
01:51:51,239 --> 01:51:53,760
the spirit. But in Rome they have the super spirit

1662
01:51:53,920 --> 01:51:57,600
because they have the super bishop. If the church has

1663
01:51:57,680 --> 01:52:01,279
the sacraments, and they have the Dogma, and they have revelation,

1664
01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:04,840
and they have the liturgy, and they have Pentecosts, and

1665
01:52:04,920 --> 01:52:08,079
when you've been christmated, you have your personal pentecost you

1666
01:52:08,199 --> 01:52:12,159
have everything you need. There is no need for the

1667
01:52:12,199 --> 01:52:15,119
infallible Bishop of Rome, because the Holy Spirit is our teacher.

1668
01:52:15,239 --> 01:52:18,239
That was the point of Pentecost, and the fact that

1669
01:52:18,720 --> 01:52:22,439
even the Old Testament saints who didn't have Pentecost could

1670
01:52:22,560 --> 01:52:26,159
know the faith and know the truth without the Bishop

1671
01:52:26,159 --> 01:52:32,279
of Rome. It's looney tunes. It's silly, it's childish to

1672
01:52:32,439 --> 01:52:36,279
think that that guy is the way to know true

1673
01:52:36,319 --> 01:52:38,760
and false. It begs the question, how do you know

1674
01:52:38,840 --> 01:52:43,079
you're interpreting the papal documents correctly? You don't, Well, I

1675
01:52:43,199 --> 01:52:44,720
just read it. I just read it, and I can

1676
01:52:44,760 --> 01:52:48,840
see what's clearly true. Really, have you ever misinterpreted a

1677
01:52:48,880 --> 01:52:52,119
papal statement? Have the papal statements always been clear? Why

1678
01:52:52,159 --> 01:52:55,159
are their clarifications on the clarifications and then clarifications and

1679
01:52:55,159 --> 01:52:58,960
the clarifications of the clarifications of the clarifications. It's a

1680
01:52:59,439 --> 01:53:08,159
system of circular absurdity. And again, if we move up

1681
01:53:08,199 --> 01:53:09,920
to okay, so the question of floor, oh well, wait

1682
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:13,000
a minute. At Florence, the entire Orthodox world agreed with

1683
01:53:13,159 --> 01:53:16,279
Rome and accept the feel like, no, they didn't. The

1684
01:53:16,359 --> 01:53:19,840
whole reason Mark of Ephesus is a saint is because

1685
01:53:19,840 --> 01:53:24,920
he didn't accept the agreement of Florence. I mean again,

1686
01:53:26,439 --> 01:53:28,199
And the only reason they would make that argument is

1687
01:53:28,399 --> 01:53:33,239
is as if it takes five of the pentarchy tempt No,

1688
01:53:33,359 --> 01:53:35,600
it doesn't, it would take all the bishops in the world.

1689
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:35,800
Speaker 2: I mean.

1690
01:53:35,960 --> 01:53:38,520
Speaker 1: Athenasius actually says this in the Aaron Crisis. He says,

1691
01:53:40,119 --> 01:53:42,159
he talks about the fact that the whole world has

1692
01:53:42,239 --> 01:53:45,760
gone after Arianism and only a handful of bishops remain.

1693
01:53:49,079 --> 01:53:51,880
So technically it wouldn't matter how many bishops. It wouldn't

1694
01:53:51,880 --> 01:53:56,239
matter if every bishop in the world almost accepted Arianism

1695
01:53:56,399 --> 01:53:59,000
or whatever. I mean, it would matter in the sense

1696
01:53:59,039 --> 01:54:01,119
that that would be a crisis. And that's what happened.

1697
01:54:01,159 --> 01:54:11,479
Most of them did, but it took contramundum, athanacious contramundam. Now,

1698
01:54:11,560 --> 01:54:14,199
the mere fact that the Orthodox Church has existed for

1699
01:54:14,319 --> 01:54:21,000
the last thousand years without the pope proves that the

1700
01:54:21,119 --> 01:54:23,760
claim that we can't exist as a church without the

1701
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:29,880
pope is wrong. And even your own papal church admits

1702
01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:33,359
that we have existed for a thousand years without the papacy.

1703
01:54:34,319 --> 01:54:39,039
How did we do that? If to leave the papacy

1704
01:54:39,239 --> 01:54:44,359
means your church falls apart, on the contrary, your church

1705
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:47,760
is falling apart. Certainly, our church has problems. We have

1706
01:54:47,840 --> 01:54:49,600
many problems. We have to deal with all kinds of

1707
01:54:50,359 --> 01:54:51,840
nasty problems, and we have to have some of the

1708
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:55,439
same problems. But at the question of truth and falsehood,

1709
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:04,239
ultimate certainty, ultimate authority impairs paradigms. The system of Rome

1710
01:55:04,359 --> 01:55:06,359
is a house of cards because it's built on that

1711
01:55:06,439 --> 01:55:08,800
one guy. So if everything that's built on that one

1712
01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:10,840
dude doesn't work out, if it doesn't, if that doesn't

1713
01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:16,000
stand up, the whole house of card falls. Our system

1714
01:55:16,079 --> 01:55:20,159
is not built on one dude. It doesn't destroy Orthodoxy.

1715
01:55:20,319 --> 01:55:24,800
If Bartholomew is a heretic and he is, doesn't destroy Orthodoxy.

1716
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:31,439
If Bishop ware says something heretical, it doesn't crumble Orthodoxy.

1717
01:55:31,479 --> 01:55:35,319
If half of the Orthodox world goes into apostasy, it's

1718
01:55:35,359 --> 01:55:41,520
not it's a tragedy. But the Orthodox Church isn't doesn't

1719
01:55:41,640 --> 01:55:45,439
end because of that. That's why Jesus created a decentralized church.

1720
01:55:45,720 --> 01:55:48,840
He didn't build it on one galactic god emperor in

1721
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:52,640
three guys fighting over who's the successor of Peter in

1722
01:55:52,720 --> 01:55:58,600
France in the Middle Ages, that's looney, that's crazy. So

1723
01:55:58,720 --> 01:56:01,439
the fact that Saint Marco of Emphysis did not, with

1724
01:56:01,680 --> 01:56:06,319
the other patriarchs, sign the Union of Florence. Proofs that,

1725
01:56:07,159 --> 01:56:10,239
I mean, that's fully in accord with Orthodox ecclesiology. It's

1726
01:56:10,359 --> 01:56:14,000
unfortunate that those other ones did sign the Union of Florence.

1727
01:56:15,359 --> 01:56:17,600
But that's not a proof against Orthodoxy. That's only a

1728
01:56:17,640 --> 01:56:21,640
proof against Orthodoxy when you have a misconception about our ecclesiology.

1729
01:56:26,079 --> 01:56:29,399
There's no magical five. It's not grounded on the magical five.

1730
01:56:29,920 --> 01:56:33,399
If it was grounded on the magical five, for three

1731
01:56:33,479 --> 01:56:36,439
hundred years, there weren't the magical five. I mean, Nicia,

1732
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:39,359
you start to have this discussion in Canon sixth there

1733
01:56:39,760 --> 01:56:42,960
of these important cities, there weren't. There wasn't a magical

1734
01:56:43,039 --> 01:56:46,279
five in the second century, and not everybody knew what

1735
01:56:46,359 --> 01:56:48,039
the Church of Rome was doing. How are you? How

1736
01:56:48,119 --> 01:56:52,039
were you in the second third? For any of these

1737
01:56:52,039 --> 01:56:54,880
early centuries. Do you think they had time to follow

1738
01:56:55,079 --> 01:56:58,760
the soap opera drama of Vatican Insider, to keep up

1739
01:56:59,000 --> 01:57:02,279
with the latest tweets from Frank to see who's Orthodox

1740
01:57:02,319 --> 01:57:05,800
and who's not, what they should and shouldn't do. It

1741
01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:09,760
would take years for something to reach Rome and be

1742
01:57:10,399 --> 01:57:12,560
disputed and then be written back and then have an

1743
01:57:12,600 --> 01:57:15,880
exchange back and forth for years. Read their letters of Basil,

1744
01:57:16,079 --> 01:57:19,319
Read the letters of Augustine. I've read them right. It's

1745
01:57:19,479 --> 01:57:23,920
years of back and forth. So it's loony tunes to

1746
01:57:24,000 --> 01:57:27,560
think that the Church could be grounded on these appeals

1747
01:57:27,640 --> 01:57:29,319
to Rome. And by the way, if you make the

1748
01:57:29,439 --> 01:57:32,479
argument that everybody was appealing to Rome to subtle things,

1749
01:57:33,479 --> 01:57:39,319
then you prove my point about councils being superfluous. If

1750
01:57:39,439 --> 01:57:41,199
just appealing to Rome was the way the early Church

1751
01:57:41,239 --> 01:57:45,680
settled things, there was no need for councils. The mere

1752
01:57:45,760 --> 01:57:47,800
fact that the councils existed, that they were called by

1753
01:57:47,800 --> 01:57:50,800
the emperors proves I review. Now they said, well, wait

1754
01:57:50,800 --> 01:57:56,159
a minute, though, you don't have ecumenical councils anymore. Ecumenical

1755
01:57:56,239 --> 01:58:01,960
councils existed and are defined by the term ocumene. The

1756
01:58:02,039 --> 01:58:06,479
ocumene is throughout the imperium. So yeah, they only make

1757
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:08,760
sense in that way because the meaning of the word

1758
01:58:09,000 --> 01:58:12,880
is in accord with the totality of the empire. When

1759
01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:15,800
the empire ceased to exist, no, for us, there would

1760
01:58:15,840 --> 01:58:20,119
not be ocumene councils. But guess what, there were no

1761
01:58:20,159 --> 01:58:23,920
acumenical councils for the first three hundred years, would the

1762
01:58:24,000 --> 01:58:27,720
church do well? They had synods? They had synods in

1763
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:31,520
here they're talked about in this book. Right, there are

1764
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:35,720
local synods prior to and I see it. The senat

1765
01:58:36,000 --> 01:58:41,760
of Ancaira is prior to a Nicea and Caira is

1766
01:58:41,800 --> 01:58:45,640
three fourteen and it's a local cyna that talks about

1767
01:58:46,800 --> 01:58:49,880
canons and rules that were set up for the governance

1768
01:58:49,920 --> 01:58:53,000
of the church. Now, this synod had nothing to do

1769
01:58:53,760 --> 01:59:04,279
with knowing what the Bishop of Rome thought. And similarly,

1770
01:59:04,840 --> 01:59:14,359
canons are had throughout the church. This but for example,

1771
01:59:14,439 --> 01:59:22,680
an Caira, the capital of Galatia, is a regional council

1772
01:59:22,760 --> 01:59:29,159
with about a dozen bishops present. Okay, and it basically

1773
01:59:29,239 --> 01:59:34,640
settled if you basic canon law, things about who can

1774
01:59:34,720 --> 01:59:38,720
attend the Eucharist, what happens to people that are lapsed,

1775
01:59:38,960 --> 01:59:46,800
this kind of stuff. Uh and bishops. Right, where is

1776
01:59:46,960 --> 01:59:50,720
the appeal and decision of the Bishop of Rome in

1777
01:59:50,840 --> 01:59:53,359
this council? Oh, it's not there, but didn't need well,

1778
01:59:54,199 --> 01:59:57,479
I thought that all the church fathers would appeal to Rome.

1779
01:59:59,239 --> 02:00:02,600
Now this is is the local senence sinodal Okay, So

1780
02:00:02,800 --> 02:00:08,760
if the church can function sinotally for three centuries, without

1781
02:00:08,880 --> 02:00:13,720
necessarily any appeals to Rome or without an ecumenical council.

1782
02:00:14,439 --> 02:00:19,479
Then doesn't that seem to suggest that the normative ecclesiological

1783
02:00:19,720 --> 02:00:23,399
governing of the church is sinodal. Yes, exactly, of course

1784
02:00:23,439 --> 02:00:29,039
it does. Now, then when controversies raged throughout the Empire,

1785
02:00:29,199 --> 02:00:33,079
you have the institution of the ecumenical councils. Now we

1786
02:00:33,479 --> 02:00:36,520
affirm the ecumenical councils on the basis of the fact

1787
02:00:36,600 --> 02:00:38,880
that they're true. I know that's a kind of a

1788
02:00:38,960 --> 02:00:42,760
shocker here, But there's no magical formula to a council

1789
02:00:42,800 --> 02:00:45,399
that makes it true because it's a council. Of course, Yeah,

1790
02:00:45,479 --> 02:00:48,960
we don't believe that. We don't believe that it's because

1791
02:00:49,000 --> 02:00:51,279
we give it the title ecumenical council that that makes

1792
02:00:51,319 --> 02:00:54,159
it true. Because there were robber councils and false synods.

1793
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:58,159
But the only way ultimately to know what's a false

1794
02:00:58,239 --> 02:01:01,760
council and a true council is the exact same epistemic

1795
02:01:01,840 --> 02:01:05,000
dilemma that the Roman Catholic has in describing or figuring

1796
02:01:05,039 --> 02:01:07,680
out a false true a false pope from a true pope.

1797
02:01:08,079 --> 02:01:10,840
It's no different. It's the exact same question and dilemma

1798
02:01:10,920 --> 02:01:13,840
moved back a step, so just to say, the only

1799
02:01:13,920 --> 02:01:15,600
way to know the difference between a true and false

1800
02:01:15,640 --> 02:01:19,800
council is by the pope begs the question that the

1801
02:01:19,840 --> 02:01:21,720
pope is Orthodox and he's a true pope and not

1802
02:01:21,760 --> 02:01:25,000
a false pope. And even all the Roman Catholics who

1803
02:01:25,079 --> 02:01:27,039
just follow Frank are wondering is he a true or

1804
02:01:27,079 --> 02:01:29,399
false pope? And even when they go back in history

1805
02:01:29,439 --> 02:01:32,039
and they look at people like John John the twenty

1806
02:01:32,119 --> 02:01:34,600
third or do excuse me twenty second who was excommunicated. Oh,

1807
02:01:34,640 --> 02:01:37,640
he was ex communicated, but uh, yeah, he was still pope,

1808
02:01:37,680 --> 02:01:40,800
And who cares. We don't. We don't care about the

1809
02:01:40,920 --> 02:01:48,079
stupid debates because they're using sonodal church government. Now the

1810
02:01:48,199 --> 02:01:52,079
Roman Cathicals say, yeah, but yeah, but but it was this,

1811
02:01:52,560 --> 02:01:55,880
the sonodal stuff can be true, and it's still true

1812
02:01:56,000 --> 02:02:00,640
that the pope is infallible. Why are they had synods

1813
02:02:01,279 --> 02:02:03,840
that have no mention or interest in the Bishop of

1814
02:02:03,920 --> 02:02:09,079
Rome that are making canon law, governing the church sonotally

1815
02:02:10,439 --> 02:02:14,640
for hundreds of years before the first Ecumenical Council. If

1816
02:02:14,680 --> 02:02:17,800
it's not what we say it is, it's obvious our

1817
02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:27,640
view is correct and caira gangra. There are canons and

1818
02:02:27,800 --> 02:02:34,279
synods that govern the church locally. So it's only when

1819
02:02:34,479 --> 02:02:37,399
the emperor and then when we begin to have the

1820
02:02:37,439 --> 02:02:42,399
conversion of the imperium all right, Constantine, Theodosius, et cetera,

1821
02:02:42,399 --> 02:02:49,279
et cetera, that the councils can become empire wide, imperial.

1822
02:02:50,319 --> 02:02:54,359
That's the meaning of ecumenical council. So it doesn't become

1823
02:02:54,399 --> 02:02:58,119
a question then at that point of the number of

1824
02:02:58,159 --> 02:03:01,880
people there right, it's not ecumen because it's five hundred bishops.

1825
02:03:02,600 --> 02:03:07,600
Some councils had a very small number of bishops. Some

1826
02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:10,560
councils had hundreds. So it has nothing to do with

1827
02:03:10,640 --> 02:03:12,680
the number any more than it has anything to do

1828
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:15,479
with that number of pentarchy or five cities, has nothing

1829
02:03:15,520 --> 02:03:19,439
to do with it, no. So that's why for us,

1830
02:03:19,479 --> 02:03:22,119
for example, even after the split between East and West,

1831
02:03:22,399 --> 02:03:25,119
the only reason we don't talk about ecumenical councils is

1832
02:03:25,199 --> 02:03:29,000
because the okumen A pretty much cease to exist right

1833
02:03:29,000 --> 02:03:30,960
out well after the fall of Byzantium. But we do

1834
02:03:31,119 --> 02:03:35,239
have synods and councils that are binding. The Palamite synods

1835
02:03:35,239 --> 02:03:38,600
and councils are binding on orthodoxy and the fact that

1836
02:03:38,680 --> 02:03:40,359
we sing that in the liturgy, and we talk about

1837
02:03:40,399 --> 02:03:43,439
those synods and we just what last week, two weeks

1838
02:03:43,479 --> 02:03:48,000
ago honored Saint Gregor Palomas and the uncreated Light, and

1839
02:03:48,079 --> 02:03:51,319
it's in the sonoticon of Orthodoxy two. So you have

1840
02:03:51,479 --> 02:03:55,079
to believe those things. They're not optional, right, And so

1841
02:03:55,199 --> 02:03:58,039
this is even this is a misunderstanding that Orthodox have too, right.

1842
02:03:58,079 --> 02:04:01,800
I mean, it's not like I mean, imagine being in

1843
02:04:01,920 --> 02:04:06,359
a church in the three in the year three hundred.

1844
02:04:07,319 --> 02:04:11,159
No Orthodox person would would would would say, well, we

1845
02:04:11,239 --> 02:04:13,680
haven't had an acumenical council yet, so no teachings are binding.

1846
02:04:14,840 --> 02:04:17,960
That's that's absurd. Let's retard it. Right, But there are

1847
02:04:18,000 --> 02:04:20,239
some Orthodox people who have this mindset that the only

1848
02:04:20,359 --> 02:04:24,439
thing that's binding on Orthodox is the the Seventh sent No,

1849
02:04:24,560 --> 02:04:27,439
that's not true. It's not true at all. The medieval

1850
02:04:27,520 --> 02:04:32,399
synods are binding. Now, ultimately, why are they binding? Ultimately

1851
02:04:32,479 --> 02:04:35,279
it's a question of what's true or false, And there's

1852
02:04:35,359 --> 02:04:37,239
no way to get around that question. It doesn't matter

1853
02:04:37,279 --> 02:04:40,239
whether you're Roman Catholic, whether you're Protestant, whether you're Orthodox.

1854
02:04:40,920 --> 02:04:45,000
Nobody has a magical formula for the ultimate question of

1855
02:04:45,319 --> 02:04:47,880
whether this thing is true or false. Okay, you can't

1856
02:04:48,000 --> 02:04:50,119
just say, well, we know it's true false by a

1857
02:04:50,159 --> 02:04:52,920
whole bunch of people deciding it. No, a whole bunch

1858
02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:55,079
of people can be wrong. Okay, well we know that

1859
02:04:55,119 --> 02:04:58,439
it's true false because the pope decided it. No, because

1860
02:04:58,600 --> 02:05:01,119
that begs the question that you are correctly interpreting the

1861
02:05:01,159 --> 02:05:03,800
pope and that it's a true pope not an anti pope,

1862
02:05:04,079 --> 02:05:05,479
which by the way, there have been like forty Ani

1863
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:14,680
popes that it is the that the Pope is himself Orthodox, etc. Right,

1864
02:05:20,520 --> 02:05:23,279
So no, it's not true. And if there are Orthodox

1865
02:05:23,319 --> 02:05:26,680
who are misinformed who think that just because it's not

1866
02:05:26,800 --> 02:05:29,439
an ecumenical council, it's not something that we pay attention

1867
02:05:29,479 --> 02:05:31,119
to or but I mean, the liturgy is not an

1868
02:05:31,159 --> 02:05:34,319
ecumenical council, and every Orthodox person follows the liturgy. So

1869
02:05:34,399 --> 02:05:38,439
this is really a weird Protestant or even Roman Catholic mindset.

1870
02:05:38,600 --> 02:05:40,840
Like the only way we know what dogma is, the

1871
02:05:40,920 --> 02:05:44,680
only way to know dogma is to know it individually

1872
02:05:44,760 --> 02:05:48,279
and personally. So now at this point in the Roman calics,

1873
02:05:48,399 --> 02:05:49,920
well I wit a minute, though, see see this is

1874
02:05:49,960 --> 02:05:51,680
where you lose me, because you're starting to sound like

1875
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:53,399
a Protestant. You're sounding like the guy who says that

1876
02:05:53,479 --> 02:05:56,520
we was the Holy Spirit guides me. Here's the difference

1877
02:05:56,600 --> 02:06:00,359
between us and the Protestant. We don't believe that the

1878
02:06:00,439 --> 02:06:05,439
Holy Spirit has deemed to guide people as atomistic individuals.

1879
02:06:06,600 --> 02:06:09,720
No church father ever taught that. Nobody ever taught that

1880
02:06:09,800 --> 02:06:11,960
in history of the church until after I don't know

1881
02:06:12,079 --> 02:06:18,199
Adam Smith and the economic revolution. This idea of atomistic

1882
02:06:18,239 --> 02:06:23,720
individualism is what are the means? Well, the only way

1883
02:06:23,800 --> 02:06:26,159
that we're going to know the means by which God

1884
02:06:26,479 --> 02:06:29,880
ordained to guide the church is to go back to Revelation. Right.

1885
02:06:30,880 --> 02:06:32,560
So you're so, what an't it? This is circular? Yes,

1886
02:06:32,640 --> 02:06:35,760
it is circular because at the question of ultimate foundations

1887
02:06:35,800 --> 02:06:41,720
of paradigms and worldviews, circularity is unavoidable. So what makes

1888
02:06:41,760 --> 02:06:46,439
a council true? It being true? There's no other way

1889
02:06:46,479 --> 02:06:49,800
to answer that question. We would even say the same

1890
02:06:49,840 --> 02:06:52,159
thing about a pope. What makes a pope a true pope?

1891
02:06:52,319 --> 02:06:58,720
That he's orthodox, not a magical formula. Not magically. We're

1892
02:06:59,039 --> 02:07:02,520
going through some right, you know, white smoke burning in

1893
02:07:02,640 --> 02:07:05,560
Rome and some guys who wear creepy red capes making

1894
02:07:05,600 --> 02:07:09,479
some decision that no, there's no, there's no infallible guy

1895
02:07:09,560 --> 02:07:13,159
that the Holy Spirit is guiding these clowns and mobsters

1896
02:07:13,199 --> 02:07:17,159
in Rome. And yeah, they are clowns and mobsters, all right,

1897
02:07:17,239 --> 02:07:20,319
and everybody's starting to figure that out. That's who the

1898
02:07:20,399 --> 02:07:24,000
Spirit is guiding to be the the cart of Jesus

1899
02:07:24,079 --> 02:07:28,479
on earth, a bunch of mobsters, give me right, come on,

1900
02:07:33,199 --> 02:07:36,640
So no again, everybody who existed in the year three

1901
02:07:36,720 --> 02:07:39,920
hundred knew that the Church was governed by scripture, by

1902
02:07:39,960 --> 02:07:43,840
the bishopric, the local bishops, and this synod. There hasn't

1903
02:07:43,840 --> 02:07:47,840
been an ecumenical council. Does that mean because we've had

1904
02:07:47,880 --> 02:07:51,000
three hundred years of Christianity and no ecumenical council, nobody

1905
02:07:51,119 --> 02:07:57,079
knows what the church teaches? Did everybody just right to Rome, Pope,

1906
02:07:57,600 --> 02:08:00,399
tell us, please, we don't know what Christians it is.

1907
02:08:00,880 --> 02:08:02,760
We don't trust reading the Bible and going to the

1908
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:05,600
liturgy unless you interpret the Bible and the liturgy for us.

1909
02:08:06,199 --> 02:08:08,199
This is this is why they should have shouldn't they?

1910
02:08:08,279 --> 02:08:10,159
I Vatican One was true in the year three hundred.

1911
02:08:11,119 --> 02:08:15,840
Did anybody do that? No? Now, let's fast forward up

1912
02:08:15,880 --> 02:08:19,920
past these regional synods, just for a brief moment. I

1913
02:08:20,000 --> 02:08:24,760
want to think about something here, which is that Rome

1914
02:08:24,840 --> 02:08:27,359
admits that John Damascus is a doctor of the Church.

1915
02:08:27,439 --> 02:08:29,079
Now that one of the reasons I continue to go

1916
02:08:29,119 --> 02:08:32,399
to John Damascus is because not just the fact that,

1917
02:08:32,520 --> 02:08:35,039
you know, as a Protestant, I read him and he,

1918
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:39,039
you know, changed my mind on things like icons. But

1919
02:08:39,199 --> 02:08:41,479
as I delved into defense of the Orthodox Faith, my

1920
02:08:41,960 --> 02:08:47,520
assumption was that Aquinas is teaching nothing different than than

1921
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:50,479
Saint John of Damascus, because they both like Aristotle. So

1922
02:08:50,560 --> 02:08:52,960
it's gotta it's got to all be. In a court,

1923
02:08:53,119 --> 02:08:55,039
there's no way that there's two different sis. It's got

1924
02:08:55,119 --> 02:08:58,600
to all be. It's just got to be. But I

1925
02:08:58,760 --> 02:09:03,119
hadn't really read and understood John Damascus at that time.

1926
02:09:04,680 --> 02:09:09,439
I didn't understand that he talks about God having one

1927
02:09:09,600 --> 02:09:12,680
energy and many energies. I couldn't make sense of that.

1928
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:15,920
I didn't know what that meant. I couldn't understand what

1929
02:09:16,039 --> 02:09:18,159
he meant in book three when he talks about the

1930
02:09:18,279 --> 02:09:23,439
uncreated energies deifying Christ's humanity in the incarnation. It didn't

1931
02:09:23,479 --> 02:09:25,840
make sense to me why. I mean, well, I mean,

1932
02:09:26,119 --> 02:09:28,560
I'd accepted what he said, but I just assumed that, well,

1933
02:09:28,560 --> 02:09:32,279
that's no different than what Aquinas teaches. But then it's not,

1934
02:09:32,600 --> 02:09:38,000
you see, because eventually when you really understand the difference

1935
02:09:38,239 --> 02:09:41,600
and why one of them is teaching, for example, that

1936
02:09:43,399 --> 02:09:46,680
the grace that's given to Christ and the incarnation, the

1937
02:09:46,800 --> 02:09:49,159
grace that Christ communicated to his human nature, and the

1938
02:09:49,199 --> 02:09:53,279
incarnation is created. It's a created, habitual grace. Let's see that,

1939
02:09:53,399 --> 02:09:57,359
because they will lose their mind thinking that I'm making

1940
02:09:57,439 --> 02:10:01,119
this up. Let's find this quote and we're going to

1941
02:10:01,159 --> 02:10:03,079
see why they created grace. Stuff matters. By the way,

1942
02:10:05,279 --> 02:10:08,079
somebody says this, the drag Us link is broken. Okay,

1943
02:10:08,159 --> 02:10:10,960
let me let me reget that. Reget the link again. Here.

1944
02:10:13,279 --> 02:10:16,079
I might have cut the HTM off there by accident.

1945
02:10:18,439 --> 02:10:29,039
Let's see. Let me put it in the chat. Let

1946
02:10:29,079 --> 02:10:35,159
me try that link. Okay, the link works for me.

1947
02:10:35,239 --> 02:10:37,479
I've tried it twice. Now. That's an important essay, really

1948
02:10:37,520 --> 02:10:42,159
important essay. It was one of the first when I

1949
02:10:42,239 --> 02:10:43,880
was when I was runan Catholic and started to look

1950
02:10:43,880 --> 02:10:46,079
at Orthodox. It was one of the first essays I

1951
02:10:46,199 --> 02:10:48,840
read that was really kind of whoa I never really

1952
02:10:49,159 --> 02:10:51,319
I didn't know anything about you know, John the eighth

1953
02:10:51,359 --> 02:10:56,039
and the eighth Council. But I did want to show

1954
02:10:56,039 --> 02:11:00,880
you this quote about the grace. I'll get so many

1955
02:11:00,920 --> 02:11:07,880
messages I can't keep up. The source inside the link

1956
02:11:07,920 --> 02:11:10,279
itself is broken. So the essay has a citation in

1957
02:11:10,319 --> 02:11:13,960
which the link is broken. I can't I can't help

1958
02:11:14,039 --> 02:11:17,199
that the link inside that old essay is broken. I

1959
02:11:17,279 --> 02:11:19,520
mean I can look for that. Just use wayback machine.

1960
02:11:19,600 --> 02:11:21,600
See if you can pull it up on wayback machine.

1961
02:11:25,279 --> 02:11:28,159
Rome didn't recognize the Council of eight six nine's for

1962
02:11:28,239 --> 02:11:31,079
over two hundred years before the reverse course exactly exactly.

1963
02:11:32,960 --> 02:11:45,439
So Jeff Jablonski is making a great point there. Yeah.

1964
02:11:45,479 --> 02:11:48,640
I mean you'll find you'll find Roman Catholic historians kind

1965
02:11:48,680 --> 02:11:50,520
of go back and forth on what happened at the

1966
02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:54,640
Eighth East and the eighth West. But typically they will

1967
02:11:54,760 --> 02:11:57,680
they will say that it that it was ratified, but

1968
02:11:57,840 --> 02:12:01,720
that later some decision was made. Otherwise it doesn't matter,

1969
02:12:01,800 --> 02:12:05,319
because the point is that John the eighth ratified the

1970
02:12:05,399 --> 02:12:07,960
Eastern eighth Council and didn't want to use the feel okuayh.

1971
02:12:13,000 --> 02:12:16,920
So here is the statement from I think this is ought.

1972
02:12:19,000 --> 02:12:22,359
I'll put the link because everybody's gonna crazy put their links,

1973
02:12:22,600 --> 02:12:26,279
making up quotes, right, So here is the well, I

1974
02:12:26,399 --> 02:12:34,720
need to screenshot it. No, Lincoln, let's see here. Okay,

1975
02:12:34,800 --> 02:12:43,319
So here's the the Aught quote about Christ's humanity having

1976
02:12:43,399 --> 02:12:46,399
created grace. And you'll see as we get to the

1977
02:12:46,439 --> 02:12:48,720
created grace part towards the end that this really just

1978
02:12:48,800 --> 02:12:51,039
kind of lines up with the argument I was making

1979
02:12:51,079 --> 02:12:54,760
the whole time. Even the grace and the incarnation in Christ.

1980
02:12:54,880 --> 02:12:59,119
Humanity in Rome's rhetically is created. Ought says, by reason

1981
02:12:59,159 --> 02:13:02,680
of his endowment with the fullness of created habitual grace,

1982
02:13:02,960 --> 02:13:07,600
Christ's soul is accidentally holy. Right. So this is where

1983
02:13:07,760 --> 02:13:12,199
I when I was talking with classical theists, and I

1984
02:13:12,279 --> 02:13:20,159
said that At says that the infused it's the infused substance,

1985
02:13:20,399 --> 02:13:24,920
when I should have said infused accident. Right. But the

1986
02:13:25,000 --> 02:13:27,680
point being is that even the Roman Catholic scheme, even

1987
02:13:27,760 --> 02:13:32,119
that system, recognizes that what Christ does to his humanity

1988
02:13:32,159 --> 02:13:35,319
and the incarnation is the exact same as the type

1989
02:13:35,359 --> 02:13:39,439
of grace that we receive ourselves, because we're participating in

1990
02:13:39,560 --> 02:13:42,800
his body. Right. And this is why St. Cyril, when

1991
02:13:42,800 --> 02:13:44,880
he argues against the Storists, he uses the argument from

1992
02:13:44,880 --> 02:13:48,199
the Eucharist. He says, the Eucharist is not just the

1993
02:13:48,279 --> 02:13:50,800
body and blood of some man, it's the body and

1994
02:13:50,840 --> 02:13:55,720
blood of God himself. Therefore it's participating in the uncreated energies. Right,

1995
02:13:55,800 --> 02:13:59,159
this is what Maximus argues against purists, It's what the

1996
02:13:59,199 --> 02:14:02,159
Sixth Council is teaching. It's what Book three of Saint

1997
02:14:02,239 --> 02:14:05,520
John Damascus argues in on the Orthodox Faith. And it's

1998
02:14:05,800 --> 02:14:12,720
clearly once again contrasted here with Christ's soul is endowed

1999
02:14:12,760 --> 02:14:17,800
with the fullness of created habitual grace. His human soul obviously, right,

2000
02:14:19,119 --> 02:14:23,760
that's created grace. And when we get again, when we

2001
02:14:23,840 --> 02:14:27,840
get to the to the list from Aught, we're going

2002
02:14:27,920 --> 02:14:29,720
to go through every one of the points that Ought

2003
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:33,039
talks about to see that I am right and you

2004
02:14:33,199 --> 02:14:35,159
are wrong. And we will go to a bunch of

2005
02:14:35,279 --> 02:14:45,439
other Catholic authorities and writers to look at the what

2006
02:14:45,640 --> 02:14:51,479
exactly it means when they say created grace. So let

2007
02:14:51,560 --> 02:14:57,039
me see if we so people are saying that within

2008
02:14:57,199 --> 02:14:59,800
the drag as essay, there's a link that's broken and

2009
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:02,600
and yes, that is an old website, So I would

2010
02:15:03,199 --> 02:15:09,840
try a wayback machine because most of the time when

2011
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:11,479
I've had I've had to do that with this site.

2012
02:15:11,520 --> 02:15:13,680
In GeoCities type site before. Most of the time I've

2013
02:15:13,720 --> 02:15:19,399
been able to find whatever link was broken with way back.

2014
02:15:20,560 --> 02:15:28,840
But let's see, it looks like there's what's the part

2015
02:15:28,920 --> 02:15:30,880
that I mean, the essay is here, what's the part

2016
02:15:30,960 --> 02:15:39,600
that's broken that matters? So you're talking about the first

2017
02:15:39,640 --> 02:15:42,319
link that's at the very top. That's just the same essay, right,

2018
02:15:42,600 --> 02:15:44,880
It used to be at I think that was tr

2019
02:15:45,000 --> 02:15:48,199
Valentine's site. He used to have all these orthodox essays up,

2020
02:15:48,279 --> 02:15:53,920
so orthodox outlet for dogmatic inquiries. This old site just

2021
02:15:54,039 --> 02:15:59,039
mirrors the essay, So it's not the broken link is

2022
02:15:59,119 --> 02:16:02,760
not a substantial link unless you mean something within the

2023
02:16:02,920 --> 02:16:07,439
essay that I'm not that I'm not seeing. But no,

2024
02:16:07,600 --> 02:16:10,880
as well, by the way that in that essay, Photius,

2025
02:16:11,119 --> 02:16:17,079
Saint Photius says that the Bulgarian missionaries were Franks spreading

2026
02:16:18,640 --> 02:16:20,960
the Philly oquay, and he does not mean Franks in

2027
02:16:21,039 --> 02:16:25,479
a generic sense of Westerners. He means Charlemagne Franks. He

2028
02:16:25,600 --> 02:16:29,920
makes it clear somebody was challenging me on that too,

2029
02:16:30,000 --> 02:16:35,760
and I was right. Okay, So we got these points

2030
02:16:35,799 --> 02:16:40,040
on sanctifying grace that we want to get to. Uh

2031
02:16:40,559 --> 02:16:42,799
now again, I promise you that we are going to

2032
02:16:42,959 --> 02:16:47,959
do a talk where we go through the papal claims

2033
02:16:48,040 --> 02:16:49,639
claimed by claim of claim like the big ones, the

2034
02:16:49,639 --> 02:16:52,239
important ones. But what we wanted to focus on today

2035
02:16:52,440 --> 02:17:03,719
was the circularity. So now on the question of individual

2036
02:17:03,840 --> 02:17:11,799
certitude and the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Let's see,

2037
02:17:11,840 --> 02:17:13,959
I wanted to make a few points on this because

2038
02:17:18,600 --> 02:17:20,799
let's see I was making I had a discussion with

2039
02:17:21,239 --> 02:17:26,079
Lewis about this I wanted to make. So he was

2040
02:17:26,120 --> 02:17:28,959
asking a question like, so, how would we respond to

2041
02:17:29,159 --> 02:17:31,639
like a Roman Catholic or a Protestant, Like if we're

2042
02:17:31,639 --> 02:17:33,639
making this argument about the Roman Catholic, then it sounds

2043
02:17:33,719 --> 02:17:35,799
like we are saying the Protestant view, like, oh, it

2044
02:17:35,879 --> 02:17:38,360
was just the Holy Spirit. God's the individual. Well, again,

2045
02:17:38,479 --> 02:17:41,479
there's no magic formula to know true truth or falsehood

2046
02:17:41,600 --> 02:17:45,479
apart from directly knowing God. And in fact, there's a

2047
02:17:45,600 --> 02:17:47,840
statement from Saint Gregor Palamus where he says essentially that

2048
02:17:47,920 --> 02:17:52,079
same thing. He says, there's no there's no external phenomenon

2049
02:17:52,120 --> 02:17:56,079
out there that's going to grant you the certitude that

2050
02:17:56,120 --> 02:18:01,840
you get from revelation. So there's this is why it's

2051
02:18:01,840 --> 02:18:05,600
an initiatory religion and experience and not a rational one.

2052
02:18:05,680 --> 02:18:09,799
I'm not saying that it's irrational, but it does transcend rationality.

2053
02:18:09,959 --> 02:18:13,120
It doesn't mean you can't have certitude, but certitude is

2054
02:18:13,200 --> 02:18:17,040
a gift of grace that comes in the context of

2055
02:18:17,079 --> 02:18:20,239
the Church. So there's no way to grant that certitude

2056
02:18:20,879 --> 02:18:24,159
merely by reason to people outside of the experience of

2057
02:18:24,239 --> 02:18:28,239
God directly. So that's why it really is a direct

2058
02:18:28,399 --> 02:18:32,360
perception knowing of truth and God directly. Now does that

2059
02:18:32,600 --> 02:18:37,000
mean that we're gnostics and we don't have any created

2060
02:18:37,559 --> 02:18:42,319
phenomena that's involved in this religion. Do we just forsake

2061
02:18:42,360 --> 02:18:45,840
everything created and like retreat into some gnostic thing. No,

2062
02:18:46,719 --> 02:18:53,040
because Christ took on matter, right, He's sanctified matter, So

2063
02:18:54,959 --> 02:18:59,920
we would say then, I think that if the individual

2064
02:19:01,040 --> 02:19:04,600
can know directly, and he can, then we've already kind

2065
02:19:04,639 --> 02:19:08,920
of made ground and made progress, even in contrast to

2066
02:19:10,799 --> 02:19:13,840
the Roman Catholic system, And the Roman Catholic is already

2067
02:19:13,879 --> 02:19:17,040
halfway agreeing with us, because again, the pragmatic point of

2068
02:19:17,079 --> 02:19:21,559
the papacy was so that the individual could know truth right.

2069
02:19:22,680 --> 02:19:25,600
So we're agreeing that the individual can at least to

2070
02:19:25,680 --> 02:19:27,879
some degree come to truth right, and we're agreeing with

2071
02:19:28,079 --> 02:19:29,799
the product the Protestant says the same thing, Yes, the

2072
02:19:29,840 --> 02:19:33,280
individual can know true. Okay, So what happens is that

2073
02:19:33,399 --> 02:19:36,639
we get the idea, as we said earlier, of the

2074
02:19:36,719 --> 02:19:40,040
self evident, neutral maxims that are supposed to be the

2075
02:19:40,120 --> 02:19:43,440
judges of the truth. That's where it starts to be

2076
02:19:43,440 --> 02:19:45,200
a problem for the Roman Kulic because there aren't self

2077
02:19:45,239 --> 02:19:49,680
evident maxims that aren't theory laden. They are, So as

2078
02:19:49,760 --> 02:19:51,879
a Roman Catholic, you can't, on the one hand, adhere

2079
02:19:51,959 --> 02:19:58,120
to a foundationalist classical foundationalist epistemology of neutral, non theory

2080
02:19:58,239 --> 02:20:01,520
laden beliefs and then turn around and say that ultimately

2081
02:20:01,639 --> 02:20:05,159
the individual can know truth. So what we're disagreeing on

2082
02:20:05,520 --> 02:20:09,840
ultimately is the means. And when we start to ask

2083
02:20:09,879 --> 02:20:11,840
the question of the means, it comes down to a

2084
02:20:11,959 --> 02:20:15,680
difference of epistemology and a difference of anthropology. That's why

2085
02:20:15,760 --> 02:20:19,120
I mentioned the doctrine of the news, because that's the

2086
02:20:19,200 --> 02:20:22,040
one thing that the Roman Catholics the Processts don't have.

2087
02:20:23,440 --> 02:20:26,319
They both believe in the exact same dichotomy doctrine of man,

2088
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:32,280
that man is a being with body and intellect, and

2089
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:36,079
that knowing God involves. For the Thomas, the analogia entus

2090
02:20:36,360 --> 02:20:40,959
knowing created effects and never God directly himself. There's no

2091
02:20:41,079 --> 02:20:43,680
doubt about that. Again that even I think was at

2092
02:20:43,719 --> 02:20:46,200
one point pretty clear in the discussion with classical theists

2093
02:20:46,280 --> 02:20:50,399
is that we're not ever knowing and experiencing God himself directly.

2094
02:20:51,040 --> 02:20:56,559
It's always only created effects. So even if they say

2095
02:20:56,600 --> 02:20:58,799
that the real presence is in the Eucharist, it doesn't

2096
02:20:58,799 --> 02:21:01,000
really matter because you're not really going to God because

2097
02:21:01,040 --> 02:21:05,079
you're still only getting created effects. It also makes no

2098
02:21:05,159 --> 02:21:07,040
sense to say the Eucharist is the essence of God.

2099
02:21:07,079 --> 02:21:10,440
That's crazy. Nobody believes that, although they're confused about it.

2100
02:21:10,559 --> 02:21:13,200
That's the point. So what we're ending up differing on

2101
02:21:14,239 --> 02:21:17,719
is the means that God has chosen for us to

2102
02:21:17,799 --> 02:21:23,600
come to, and no religious truth. Even the Roman Catholic

2103
02:21:23,600 --> 02:21:25,639
will agree that the Holy Spirit has a role in

2104
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:30,319
teaching the individual. So it's a question of the means

2105
02:21:30,680 --> 02:21:33,520
that's the real point of departure, and not just the

2106
02:21:33,639 --> 02:21:35,719
means that God has ordained to bring us to truth,

2107
02:21:36,840 --> 02:21:41,360
but the anthropology to get to that truth. So Rome

2108
02:21:41,360 --> 02:21:44,840
has analogia entus, the analogy of being for knowing and

2109
02:21:45,200 --> 02:21:48,120
predicating about God right the divine names, even though in

2110
02:21:48,159 --> 02:21:51,040
the divine names, by the way, Dionysius says their energies

2111
02:21:51,440 --> 02:21:55,159
right as I showed you in the thing I tweeted,

2112
02:21:55,399 --> 02:21:57,000
I have to I mean again, just go read the

2113
02:21:57,000 --> 02:21:59,799
divine names instead of trying to argue with me. People

2114
02:21:59,840 --> 02:22:03,200
need to read these actual documents. There's three places where

2115
02:22:03,239 --> 02:22:05,840
he talks about the energies in the divine names Dinasius.

2116
02:22:05,920 --> 02:22:09,959
That is point being Quitas relies on Dinysius pretty heavily.

2117
02:22:10,079 --> 02:22:14,120
That's why I'm bringing them up. But instead of the

2118
02:22:14,159 --> 02:22:19,159
analogia inis and created grace in Rome for knowing God

2119
02:22:19,760 --> 02:22:24,040
and experiencing God, in Protonism, you have what's called analogia

2120
02:22:24,079 --> 02:22:27,879
fide in Algia of faith, by which they just mean

2121
02:22:28,079 --> 02:22:32,159
the Bible, the canon of the Protestant Bible, of course.

2122
02:22:33,920 --> 02:22:37,120
So what we have here is is two different schemes

2123
02:22:37,200 --> 02:22:42,760
of knowing God, analogia inis anologia fide. Orthodoxy doesn't believe

2124
02:22:42,760 --> 02:22:45,719
either one of these. Orthodoxy does have the Bible, it

2125
02:22:45,799 --> 02:22:49,840
does have a canon scripture, and it does believe that

2126
02:22:50,120 --> 02:22:54,239
that's the word of God in terms of Christ revealing

2127
02:22:54,319 --> 02:22:59,079
himself to us through that means. And we have an

2128
02:22:59,079 --> 02:23:03,319
analogia in the sense of the uncreated energies, right, the

2129
02:23:04,600 --> 02:23:07,159
operations that come down to us. Saint Basil says in

2130
02:23:07,200 --> 02:23:09,559
a letter two thirty four, whether God's wisdom, his justice,

2131
02:23:09,639 --> 02:23:12,760
his mercy, these energies are operations that come down to us.

2132
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:17,040
We do. We can make an analogy to human operations, right,

2133
02:23:17,639 --> 02:23:21,000
uncreated light, you can make an analogy to created light.

2134
02:23:21,600 --> 02:23:25,120
They're not the same. But we can speak of God

2135
02:23:25,200 --> 02:23:30,280
as Father as an analogy to humans as father. So

2136
02:23:30,360 --> 02:23:33,959
there is a valid analogia in Orthodoxy, and this analogy

2137
02:23:34,079 --> 02:23:37,319
is taught by Saint Basil, is taught by Gregory Naziana Zeus,

2138
02:23:37,360 --> 02:23:40,440
It's taught by John Damascus very clearly in his book.

2139
02:23:41,120 --> 02:23:45,280
This shouldn't be debated. But there are a few small

2140
02:23:45,879 --> 02:23:47,959
areas of Orthodoxy that will say that there's not even

2141
02:23:48,040 --> 02:23:51,680
any apps. Roman idea says there's absolutely no analogia at

2142
02:23:51,680 --> 02:23:56,680
all period, which is not true. That's completely incorrect. That's

2143
02:23:56,719 --> 02:23:58,159
why he has to go so far as to say

2144
02:23:58,159 --> 02:24:00,360
that scriptures don't even matter. Can't you can't call the

2145
02:24:00,399 --> 02:24:01,959
Scripture as a word of God, because that would be

2146
02:24:02,040 --> 02:24:05,639
the sickness of religion and analogia. His error is in

2147
02:24:06,280 --> 02:24:10,399
mistaking the analogia entis for the logi.

2148
02:24:11,079 --> 02:24:11,200
Speaker 3: Right.

2149
02:24:11,600 --> 02:24:15,520
Speaker 1: So Saint Maximus says the analogy very clearly in his writings.

2150
02:24:15,559 --> 02:24:20,479
He says, the analogia is relevant to the energies, the

2151
02:24:20,600 --> 02:24:26,719
uncreated energies, and the uncreated logi the logo. So that's

2152
02:24:26,760 --> 02:24:31,319
the important difference, and that is related to the doctrine

2153
02:24:31,360 --> 02:24:38,559
of the news. Again unique to Orthodoxy and relevant too

2154
02:24:38,719 --> 02:24:43,079
because of both Protestantism and Roman Catholicism teaching created grace.

2155
02:24:43,520 --> 02:24:47,280
Let's stress that the Protestant is in no better position

2156
02:24:47,399 --> 02:24:50,159
than the Roman Catholic actually on this stuff, even though

2157
02:24:50,200 --> 02:24:52,239
they might think they're in a better position because they

2158
02:24:52,239 --> 02:24:55,360
don't believe in analogia entis. If they're like Calvinists and

2159
02:24:55,559 --> 02:24:57,920
they think they're skirting around that and they're saying, oh,

2160
02:24:58,000 --> 02:25:01,319
it's just the Bible, right, the canon scripture is our analogia,

2161
02:25:01,479 --> 02:25:05,399
our true analogy. It doesn't work because even still in

2162
02:25:05,479 --> 02:25:09,040
the Protestant scheme, you're never actually interacting with or touching

2163
02:25:09,120 --> 02:25:12,120
upon the Divine. There's no direct experience of the divine

2164
02:25:12,159 --> 02:25:15,799
at all. Ever, in that they also only believe in

2165
02:25:15,920 --> 02:25:18,879
created grace and created effects, because the Bible is a

2166
02:25:18,959 --> 02:25:22,079
created effect. So what the Roman Catholic tries to do

2167
02:25:22,920 --> 02:25:25,040
with the analogia of things out there in nature and

2168
02:25:25,079 --> 02:25:29,360
the analogia from scripture to the divine essence. Right, absolute

2169
02:25:29,360 --> 02:25:33,760
divine simplicity means that we are predicating analogies from creatures

2170
02:25:33,920 --> 02:25:37,559
up to the divine essence, which is nothing like creatures.

2171
02:25:37,600 --> 02:25:39,840
By the way, Paul says in next seventeen that the

2172
02:25:39,920 --> 02:25:46,879
divine Lussia is nothing like created things. But because of

2173
02:25:46,920 --> 02:25:52,680
absolute divince siblicity, the Roman Celics make this confusion. So

2174
02:25:54,360 --> 02:26:00,000
neither analogy andthis nor analogia feedde are correct. The analog

2175
02:26:00,520 --> 02:26:03,760
whether it's in scripture or whether it's in nature, are

2176
02:26:03,879 --> 02:26:06,680
according to Saint Maximus, according to Saint John Maamascus, according

2177
02:26:06,719 --> 02:26:10,520
to all of our teachers, the uncreated logoi the logie

2178
02:26:11,680 --> 02:26:17,079
that's the solution to this dilemma. And it's never going

2179
02:26:17,159 --> 02:26:19,520
to be solved by these guys until they actually just

2180
02:26:19,639 --> 02:26:22,680
do their homework, until you actually just read the Eastern

2181
02:26:22,719 --> 02:26:27,799
fathers themselves. You have to go and read them. There's

2182
02:26:27,840 --> 02:26:34,440
no other way around it. Okay, So I'm gonna take

2183
02:26:34,559 --> 02:26:37,479
questions because I'm sure there's gonna be a million questions.

2184
02:26:40,120 --> 02:26:42,159
And again we are this is just the talk on

2185
02:26:42,440 --> 02:26:46,079
circularity and epistemic claims. This is not the talk on

2186
02:26:47,600 --> 02:26:53,200
the various misuses of papal stuff. But let's talk about

2187
02:26:53,440 --> 02:26:57,280
created grace, because this came up again. So we've been

2188
02:26:57,319 --> 02:27:00,200
talking about the creative grace. I'm saying that the Roman

2189
02:27:00,280 --> 02:27:03,000
Catholic and the Protestant both have the created grace problem.

2190
02:27:04,479 --> 02:27:09,040
The Roman Catholic position is not unclear and it's not undogmatic.

2191
02:27:09,239 --> 02:27:13,520
Let's take one. This is father Barker Baker. I've got

2192
02:27:13,600 --> 02:27:15,920
it listed on the well here. If I don't say

2193
02:27:15,959 --> 02:27:17,760
the exact name right, they'll say I've made it up.

2194
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:23,479
Let's see, it's all got to be very precise. Real

2195
02:27:23,680 --> 02:27:34,239
is made up? Father? What is this guy's name? Barker fundamentals?

2196
02:27:34,239 --> 02:27:44,479
Loos is only three? By ignacious press? What is sanctifying grace? Justifica?

2197
02:27:44,520 --> 02:27:46,959
And you'll notice by the way he uses almost all

2198
02:27:47,000 --> 02:27:52,200
the exactament terminology I used in the discussion with uh

2199
02:27:52,920 --> 02:27:56,440
classical theists, except that again I misspoke, and I said

2200
02:27:57,879 --> 02:28:01,520
created if you used subs and not accent. Again, it

2201
02:28:01,600 --> 02:28:04,319
doesn't matter, because the force of the argument still holds

2202
02:28:05,120 --> 02:28:07,959
justification as the spiritual process by which a person through

2203
02:28:08,000 --> 02:28:12,360
faith in Christ receives sanctifying grace of God. We've already

2204
02:28:12,399 --> 02:28:18,000
considered the major aspects of actual grace in this essay,

2205
02:28:18,120 --> 02:28:19,719
which we will look into, and then so we will

2206
02:28:19,760 --> 02:28:21,799
look into the ess to the issue of Saint Frankrace.

2207
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:23,920
The question we want to answer is what is it?

2208
02:28:24,559 --> 02:28:27,680
Baltimore Catechism says that the grace of God confers in

2209
02:28:27,799 --> 02:28:31,840
our soul's new life, that is, as sharing in the

2210
02:28:31,920 --> 02:28:33,840
life of God himself. Oh oh no, wait a minute,

2211
02:28:34,600 --> 02:28:37,799
the life of God isn't created, is it? No, God's

2212
02:28:37,879 --> 02:28:42,399
life is uncreated? Question one eleven. What is this new life?

2213
02:28:42,959 --> 02:28:46,079
Is it a created gift of God to men? And

2214
02:28:46,200 --> 02:28:48,520
notice how clear and simple and straightforward they are. Right,

2215
02:28:48,559 --> 02:28:53,799
They don't launch into endless nonsense. They just outright say

2216
02:28:53,959 --> 02:28:56,559
what's very obvious and what any Roman Catholic would say

2217
02:28:56,559 --> 02:28:59,639
when you go ask them, Go ask any priests and

2218
02:28:59,680 --> 02:29:02,559
they'll tell tell you this or is it the communication

2219
02:29:02,680 --> 02:29:07,200
of God himself? Now? Remember how I argued from Trent right,

2220
02:29:07,319 --> 02:29:09,200
and those guys didn't even know that what I was

2221
02:29:09,639 --> 02:29:11,799
that I was quoting was from Trent. The guys on

2222
02:29:11,879 --> 02:29:14,040
Twitter losing their shit, They thought that they got me

2223
02:29:14,760 --> 02:29:18,680
and the quote was actually Trent itself talking about the Canons,

2224
02:29:18,719 --> 02:29:20,559
and they thought I made it up. No, I got

2225
02:29:20,559 --> 02:29:23,079
it from Denzinger seven ninety nine. Because I've read Denzinger twice.

2226
02:29:23,959 --> 02:29:25,719
It doesn't mean, by the way, I might not misstate

2227
02:29:25,719 --> 02:29:28,840
a word every now and then. Right, the most common

2228
02:29:28,879 --> 02:29:32,120
opinion on Catholic theologians is that sanctifying grace is a created,

2229
02:29:32,360 --> 02:29:37,639
supernatural gift. We're talking about the gift itself, the grace itself.

2230
02:29:37,760 --> 02:29:40,360
We are not talking about the bread and wine and

2231
02:29:40,399 --> 02:29:44,399
the Eucharist. We're not talking about waters of baptism. We're

2232
02:29:44,479 --> 02:29:48,280
not talking about an angel. Okay, because every Roman Catholic

2233
02:29:48,360 --> 02:29:50,639
he tries to deal with this, We'll say, well, but

2234
02:29:50,719 --> 02:29:54,159
there's created things that are grace, therefore it's created grace. No,

2235
02:29:54,360 --> 02:29:58,200
we're talking about the gift itself. We're not talking about

2236
02:29:58,639 --> 02:30:01,559
water and bread and wine. We're not talking about sacraments.

2237
02:30:02,399 --> 02:30:07,760
The grace itself is conferred on the believer, and it

2238
02:30:07,879 --> 02:30:13,200
is really distinct from God. Can you read that? The

2239
02:30:13,280 --> 02:30:17,319
Council of Trent said, the sanctifying grace is God's justice,

2240
02:30:17,600 --> 02:30:20,920
not by means of which he himself is just, but

2241
02:30:21,000 --> 02:30:23,360
by which He makes us just. So it is not

2242
02:30:23,719 --> 02:30:27,879
God's justice or righteousness, or love or glory. Can you

2243
02:30:28,040 --> 02:30:30,920
get this through your thick Roman Catholic skulls? It is

2244
02:30:31,120 --> 02:30:38,159
not God's justice. It is a created, supernatural gift created.

2245
02:30:38,360 --> 02:30:41,360
Can you read that? And every Roman Catholic I ever

2246
02:30:41,440 --> 02:30:45,719
asked says the same thing. And then they go on

2247
02:30:45,799 --> 02:30:47,920
to say, well, but it does prepare you for the

2248
02:30:47,959 --> 02:30:53,520
participation in the divine nature. Now, wait a minute, those

2249
02:30:53,559 --> 02:30:56,159
two things don't make sense because the divine nature is

2250
02:30:56,239 --> 02:31:01,360
not created. Now why are the confused on this? Because

2251
02:31:01,520 --> 02:31:04,760
of absolute divine simplicity? And because the Roman Catholic Church

2252
02:31:04,879 --> 02:31:08,879
rejects the essen synergy distinction? Okay, not rocket science. This

2253
02:31:09,040 --> 02:31:11,079
is not hard to get. It's not hard to figure out.

2254
02:31:15,399 --> 02:31:20,799
What does Father Harden say? Now, I don't feel like

2255
02:31:23,360 --> 02:31:26,000
this is on my wall in the group. I tweeted

2256
02:31:26,040 --> 02:31:30,440
all this stuff. So if you want, if you think

2257
02:31:30,479 --> 02:31:34,600
I'm making it up, I don't feel like clipping every

2258
02:31:34,639 --> 02:31:38,440
single one of these pages, you can just go and

2259
02:31:38,559 --> 02:31:40,360
find the quote in Father Harden. I mean this is

2260
02:31:40,399 --> 02:31:43,799
a common book too. Everybody's familiar with Father Harden's Catechism

2261
02:31:45,280 --> 02:31:47,920
used to be in every bookstore. Even secular bookstores carry

2262
02:31:47,959 --> 02:31:54,120
this catechism. What is creative grace? It is something create?

2263
02:31:54,239 --> 02:31:56,600
What is sanct fying grace? Something created giving to us

2264
02:31:56,639 --> 02:31:59,440
by God which gives us a created likeness of God's

2265
02:31:59,479 --> 02:32:03,600
nature and life. Uh oh, exactly. It is a supernatural

2266
02:32:03,639 --> 02:32:10,280
gift infused see into our soul, a positive reality, spiritual,

2267
02:32:10,520 --> 02:32:16,200
supernatural and invisible. It's a created, supernatural gift. It is

2268
02:32:16,360 --> 02:32:26,399
not God's nature, likeness or justice. It is created. There's

2269
02:32:26,399 --> 02:32:31,639
only two types of things, created and uncreated. So that's

2270
02:32:31,680 --> 02:32:37,840
Father Harden's book. I'm not misquoting it. You can go

2271
02:32:37,959 --> 02:32:47,760
look for yourself. This is uh the Bishop of I

2272
02:32:47,879 --> 02:32:52,360
just went through listing all the different typical teachings that

2273
02:32:52,440 --> 02:32:59,079
I could find. The Bishops of Australia have a lengthy

2274
02:32:59,399 --> 02:33:05,280
essay on grace and if you want the links, they're

2275
02:33:05,280 --> 02:33:07,559
all on the page. This is not even controversial. It's

2276
02:33:07,600 --> 02:33:13,479
like you guys are trying to trap me, play gotcha

2277
02:33:13,639 --> 02:33:16,280
on something that's not even that controversial. So what if

2278
02:33:16,319 --> 02:33:18,920
I use the wrong word? If the point is that

2279
02:33:19,200 --> 02:33:23,959
it's still created, bro, what does what do the Bishops

2280
02:33:23,959 --> 02:33:28,520
of Australia say? By the way, if if if it's

2281
02:33:30,319 --> 02:33:34,479
if the Romanchanic Church is the true Church. Why can't

2282
02:33:34,520 --> 02:33:37,639
they just say the uncreated grace, like the sixth Council

2283
02:33:37,680 --> 02:33:45,079
in John Damascus, in Saint Maximus against Piros, say why

2284
02:33:45,120 --> 02:33:47,559
do we have to have all this confusion? Why can't

2285
02:33:47,559 --> 02:33:51,120
they just know that every church father in the East,

2286
02:33:51,280 --> 02:33:55,479
who dominated all those councils, teaches uncreated grace and Theosis.

2287
02:33:55,600 --> 02:33:57,200
Half of these guys don't even know what you're talking about.

2288
02:33:57,200 --> 02:33:59,040
You top theos. I've had Roman Catholics at the time

2289
02:33:59,079 --> 02:34:02,440
you say theosis, they think you're talking about paganism.