WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>It probably all began when old man Bell started seeing

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<v Speaker 2>an odd looking animal on his farm, something half rabbit,

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<v Speaker 2>half dog, queer looking creature. And then late one night,

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<v Speaker 2>the crashes began, Noises rattled across the house, and a

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<v Speaker 2>voice from the darkness told the family terrible things, the

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<v Speaker 2>legend of the Bell Witch. Next to plon Monster Talk,

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<v Speaker 2>it's actually quite unlike anything we've evering before. A giant,

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<v Speaker 2>hairy creature.

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<v Speaker 3>Part eight, Part mast in Luckness, a twenty four a

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<v Speaker 3>mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands of Scotland.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster Monster. Welcome

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<v Speaker 2>to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm your

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<v Speaker 2>host Blake Smith, and together with Ben Radford and doctor

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<v Speaker 2>Karen Stoles, now we dig into monster stories to find

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<v Speaker 2>out what truths we can and what facts there are.

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<v Speaker 2>Today we discussed the bell Witch Haunting, a strange story

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<v Speaker 2>from the eighteen hundreds in Tennessee which includes an amazing

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<v Speaker 2>array of paranormal events and some famous people in voting

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<v Speaker 2>Andrew Jackson. Before we go on with that, I want

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<v Speaker 2>to take a quick moment to tell you about an

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<v Speaker 2>important project that's going on right now. I'm recording this

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<v Speaker 2>intro on January twenty second. It's the birthday of quack

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<v Speaker 2>cancer treatment guru Stanislaw Brazinski. Brazinski's expensive and ineffective treatments

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<v Speaker 2>deplete the fiscal and emotional resources of desperate cancer patients.

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<v Speaker 2>A group of concerned skeptics are trying to raise awareness

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<v Speaker 2>of this and support effective cancer research at the same time.

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<v Speaker 2>Please take a moment and go to crowdrise dot com

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<v Speaker 2>forward slash Fight Childhood Cancer. I'll put a link in

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<v Speaker 2>the show notes as well. This fundraiser is part of

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<v Speaker 2>a joint effort of many people in the skeptics community

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<v Speaker 2>and is a worthy cause. Thank you. Today's Monster Talk

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<v Speaker 2>interview comes from October and has been delayed due to

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<v Speaker 2>a series of ridiculous technical issues. But here it is,

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<v Speaker 2>and I hope you enjoy it. The bell Witch Morebstertle.

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<v Speaker 2>You're a little faint, am I?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay?

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<v Speaker 2>There? That sounds better? Don't if you leaned in or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>It's high tech stuff, very very.

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<v Speaker 3>All that all the experience in book learning just lean.

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<v Speaker 2>In, as as outlined in the Podcasting for Dummies, the

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<v Speaker 2>book upon which this entire show is based.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't read that.

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<v Speaker 2>How was I feel like I'm just wrapping up because

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<v Speaker 2>the the there was like a real world mystery of

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<v Speaker 2>why is water shooting out the back of my house?

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<v Speaker 1>And pressing and urgent things to attend to.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this is the plumbers here finishing that up. So

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<v Speaker 2>that mystery turned out to be broken water pipe was

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<v Speaker 2>the solution.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh you came home to that or yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that was great. It was nice. I thought

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<v Speaker 2>it was Ben. How was your Did you have a

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<v Speaker 2>good time.

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<v Speaker 3>At the conference? Yeah? Yeah, it was busy visibly, but

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I gave a talk on mass hysterios and

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<v Speaker 3>then I was I did an investigations thing with.

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<v Speaker 2>Jim and Joe, Jim Underdown and Joe Nicol.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah all right, yeah, so do you talk Blake?

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<v Speaker 2>No, I didn't talk. I was there for free because

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<v Speaker 2>of winning the costume contest the year before. Where I

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<v Speaker 2>went I went as Auckham shaving Cream.

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<v Speaker 3>Still very clever.

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<v Speaker 2>It was funny. I thought, well, my gosh, we're really

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<v Speaker 2>close to the bell Witch's historical site. I thought, would

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<v Speaker 2>it be silly to come this far and not right

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<v Speaker 2>out there and at least take a look around and.

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<v Speaker 1>So is that to Nashville.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about it's probably like thirty five miles and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>minutes because it's a bunch of country roads. But I

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<v Speaker 2>looked around for Joe to see if I could find

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<v Speaker 2>him since he was there, and we couldn't. All right,

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<v Speaker 2>I couldn't find him. And then Ben and I headed

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<v Speaker 2>out and we stopped at the state road sign marker

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<v Speaker 2>for the Bell Witch and then all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 2>this car whips across and parks in front of us,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's Joe Nicol and In von Reese having just

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<v Speaker 2>left the site.

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<v Speaker 1>So some kind of synchronicity.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, it's not really what you'd call a coincidence.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I guess they I mean, or is it?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. It seems like every time, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Joe makes a point when he travels to try to

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<v Speaker 2>go see these kind of sites, and I think Ben

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<v Speaker 2>and exactly right, everybody's so inclined. Uh, so you know

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's there's as I'm sure we'll talk about. There's

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<v Speaker 2>not a lot to the story from a historical perspective,

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<v Speaker 2>but the site does exist where the story takes place,

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<v Speaker 2>so it was interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I saw the photograph on Facebook with Ben very

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<v Speaker 1>nice and why wasn't there one of you?

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<v Speaker 2>Like? I never got it uploaded. I got a little

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<v Speaker 2>distracted by the whole water thing. I'd gotten a call

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<v Speaker 2>to saying that there was a problem with the water

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<v Speaker 2>at the home coming out of the back of the house,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was just anxious to get back and find

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<v Speaker 2>out what was going on.

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<v Speaker 1>So maybe it was because you visited the sign.

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<v Speaker 2>That's so. Yeah, my wife did mention that there was

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<v Speaker 2>some mysterious voices and the house that had banging. No,

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<v Speaker 2>she didn't, and you were gone. Apparently, not only is

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<v Speaker 2>it it's not unusual to have uh water pipe breaks,

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<v Speaker 2>you know in our neighborhood. Apparently were the just the

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<v Speaker 2>plumber I'm working with, We're the fourth one he's had

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<v Speaker 2>to fix in our neighborhood.

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<v Speaker 1>So he needed the tap skies out there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I don't have a ghost, but I do have

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<v Speaker 2>a plumbing problem.

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<v Speaker 1>So they qualified for that.

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<v Speaker 2>Lunch, so we I thought this would be fine. I

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<v Speaker 2>had my truck been and I hopped in and drove

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<v Speaker 2>out there, and it was a little I don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to I don't want to disparage the place, but the

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<v Speaker 2>Lincoln cabin. It was a little sketchy. I mean it's

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit. The first thing you see when you

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<v Speaker 2>get out there is this like a toe behind trailer, UH,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's a sign above it this is psychic readings,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's a guy who does psychic readings. And I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think this was my imagination. He looked at me

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<v Speaker 2>and Ben and then went back inside his trailer and

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<v Speaker 2>closed the door. He was yeah, maybe he was.

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<v Speaker 1>I think sense the negativity.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know what happened there. And then we told

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<v Speaker 2>him we were in kind of a hurry, which is

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<v Speaker 2>totally true because Ben had to talk to get to UH.

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<v Speaker 2>And the way the cabin is set up, First of all,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not the original cabin it is. To ask about that,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a replica cabin, and it looks really nice. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>my family, my dad, part of what he does is

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<v Speaker 2>build log cabins and restore them. So I appreciated some

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<v Speaker 2>of the craftsmanship for the way it was put together,

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<v Speaker 2>but it wasn't entirely off. It looked like the oaklogs

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<v Speaker 2>were you know, properly chained and everything, but the floors

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<v Speaker 2>were you know, kind of modern pressure treated wood.

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<v Speaker 3>Floors, and yeah, it was sort of a disnified version

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<v Speaker 3>of you know, oh yeah, well said I only kind

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<v Speaker 3>of knew how roughly what it is like then you

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<v Speaker 3>could pull it off, but you know.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and then they had no animatronics or anything, but

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<v Speaker 2>they had the pre recorded audio that they played in

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<v Speaker 2>various rooms of the cabin to tell you the story.

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<v Speaker 2>And so as you kind of moved through the different rooms,

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<v Speaker 2>you stop, sit down and listen to this audio, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was you know, I thought that was nicely done.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, if I had stayed, if I hadn't, I

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<v Speaker 2>had to rush home. The uh the in the evening

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<v Speaker 2>they have candlelit tours, which would probably be genuinely creepy

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<v Speaker 2>to hear that really well produced audio. And sitting in

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<v Speaker 2>a dark cabin with the wind blowing outside. The weather

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<v Speaker 2>was perfect for it was overcast and windy. Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 2>was a good place for a ghost story. Part of

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<v Speaker 2>it began much like a traditional i'd say a witch

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<v Speaker 2>story more than a ghost story, because so the senior

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<v Speaker 2>Bell was out on his property and he sees this

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<v Speaker 2>mysterious animal. It looks like it's part rabbit and part dog,

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<v Speaker 2>and well, that's kind of creepy. I think in one sense,

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<v Speaker 2>it's also very consistent with the kind of things that

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<v Speaker 2>happened in European witch stories. People would see a mysterious animal.

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<v Speaker 2>Usually it was something like a hare and a hair

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<v Speaker 2>does look something like an oversized rabbit, and and then

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<v Speaker 2>you find that you can't kill it. You shoot at it,

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<v Speaker 2>you try to kill it, and you can't kill it.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's one of the first science that you're having

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<v Speaker 2>witch problems. Yeah, well maybe you know, so.

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<v Speaker 1>Did he attempt to kill this creature?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that I have.

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<v Speaker 1>That was in one version that I the.

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<v Speaker 2>Best one of the part of the problem, there's the

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<v Speaker 2>book and then there's lots of different folklore about it.

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<v Speaker 2>I've read stories where they found a dead animal, and

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<v Speaker 2>I've read stories where he saw a lie of it animal.

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<v Speaker 2>But that seems to be a consistent part of the story.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem is, let's just I don't want to gosh,

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<v Speaker 2>I hate to just jump to the conclusion, but there

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<v Speaker 2>just doesn't seem to be a lot of facts to

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<v Speaker 2>back up the story. The story is very elaborate, but

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<v Speaker 2>the whole story seems to come from a book about

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<v Speaker 2>the acts or the activities there that took place decades later,

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<v Speaker 2>Like was it sixty years later?

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<v Speaker 3>So yeah, I was like sixty seventy five years later.

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<v Speaker 3>I have the book in front of me, the Ingham

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<v Speaker 3>version of the book, and I think it's worth just

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<v Speaker 3>reading the first few sentences because it's the preface and

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<v Speaker 3>it really sort of sets the stage for the whole thing,

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<v Speaker 3>all right. The preface from the book, it says, it

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<v Speaker 3>is not the purpose of the writer to present a

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<v Speaker 3>romance for the entertainment of lovers of fiction, nor to

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<v Speaker 3>establish a theory to please the fancy adherence to so

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<v Speaker 3>called theosophy, but simply to record evidence of historical facts,

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<v Speaker 3>stained by a powerful array of incontrovertible evidence, as it

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<v Speaker 3>comes to hand, testifying to the most wonderful phenomena of

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<v Speaker 3>the world. Has any account of a visitation known as

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<v Speaker 3>the Bell Witch, believed at the time by many to

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<v Speaker 3>have been of supernatural origin, which appeared in Robertson County,

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<v Speaker 3>Tennessee some seventy five years ago, inflicting unendurable suffering on

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<v Speaker 3>John Bell, the head of the family, and was said

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<v Speaker 3>to have ended his life, and which also awakened a

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<v Speaker 3>sensation that has lived through a generation. So that's that

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<v Speaker 3>just struck me when I was reading the preface to it,

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<v Speaker 3>because you know, it's the very first line is saying, look,

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<v Speaker 3>this is a true story, was sustained by a quote

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<v Speaker 3>powerful array of incontrovertible evidence end quote. So I'm like, wow,

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<v Speaker 3>this is I would love to see a powerful way

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<v Speaker 3>of controvertible evidence. And then of course the story goes on.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's just a it's a very telling preface.

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<v Speaker 1>So there weren't any contemporary accounts.

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<v Speaker 2>No, not contemporary, but inside the story it has the

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of letters from people who attest to

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<v Speaker 2>the veracity of what has been told, but these are

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<v Speaker 2>two the problem is and there's also supposedly a diary

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<v Speaker 2>from the son, but it doesn't matter because none of

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<v Speaker 2>the original source material in the diary exists.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, I mean, that's that's exactly right. I mean the

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<v Speaker 3>you know, it's a typical, you know, friend of a

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<v Speaker 3>friend's story. I mean, it's pure folklore through and through.

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<v Speaker 3>You have this guy Martin Ingram who is sort of

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<v Speaker 3>retelling what he heard from what he read about a

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<v Speaker 3>handwritten diary by Richard Bell, who is one of John

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<v Speaker 3>Bell's sons, you know, from sixty seventy five years earlier.

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<v Speaker 3>And then, of course, as Blake noted, there were different

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<v Speaker 3>incarnations of the story still. So again, I've read probably

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<v Speaker 3>at least a dozen different versions, and I'm sure there's

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<v Speaker 3>many more. So it's it's interesting how, you know, even

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<v Speaker 3>different writers put their own little spins on it. And

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<v Speaker 3>because the story is so old, dating back at least

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<v Speaker 3>to the you know, to the eighteen hundred, it's obviously

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<v Speaker 3>because that's when the book first came out, you've had,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, well over a century to to mangle the

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<v Speaker 3>mangle the story and add details and do all those

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<v Speaker 3>fun things that happens to folklore.

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<v Speaker 1>And so with these letters, were they from eyewitnesses or

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<v Speaker 1>family members or friends.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, they were from people who had they were eyewitnesses,

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<v Speaker 2>are people who had heard firsthand the stories of the events.

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<v Speaker 2>But we don't have those letters either, I mean, they

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<v Speaker 2>only exist inside this book. So, man, I read your

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<v Speaker 2>piece for a skeptical inquirer and so, and I'd also

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<v Speaker 2>listened to Brian Dunning's episode that he'd of a skeptoid

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<v Speaker 2>talking about this, and of course one of the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the big things is that inside the work

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<v Speaker 2>of the Belwich book, it talks about a like authenticating

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<v Speaker 2>material that would have been temporaneous but that doesn't exist. Like,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, they say that Andrew Jackson came, but his

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<v Speaker 2>travels are actually well documented. He wasn't in the area

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<v Speaker 2>at the time. And as Dining points out, I think

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<v Speaker 2>very nicely that the the election of Andrew Jackson to

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<v Speaker 2>president was really contentious. People were really looking for anything

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<v Speaker 2>to sling mud at the other guy, right, so both

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<v Speaker 2>candidates were being really awful. If they could have said

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<v Speaker 2>that Andrew Jackson had been bested by a ghost, I

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<v Speaker 2>think that would have happened, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. In fact, that the Andrew Jackson Stories is actually

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<v Speaker 3>one of the interesting parts of it. It's it's not

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<v Speaker 3>just sort of mentioned briefly. It's given quite a few

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<v Speaker 3>pages to it in some detail, and everything from direct

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<v Speaker 3>quotes from you know, from from Jackson addressing the ghosts

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<v Speaker 3>and the ghost addressing him back. It's it's rather detailed

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<v Speaker 3>and melodramatic.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's very exciting. I mean, he pulls up in

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<v Speaker 2>his wagon and all of a sudden, the wagon won't

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<v Speaker 2>go any further and the mules are straining at it,

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<v Speaker 2>and finally a voice comes out of thin air and

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<v Speaker 2>tells him he may proceed, you know, and then suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>he can he can go stay at the cabin, and

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<v Speaker 2>it has a horrible night there with you know, banging

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<v Speaker 2>and clatter and noises, and leaves the next day saying

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<v Speaker 2>he'd rather face the British than face the ghost, right right, So.

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<v Speaker 1>It's exciting something I've come across in a couple of

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<v Speaker 1>other stories as well, with the Winchester Mystery House in

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<v Speaker 1>San Jose that was owned by the Winchester family. Apparently

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<v Speaker 1>Teddy Roosevelt had paid a visit and was turned away

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<v Speaker 1>by Sarah Winchester, and I think one of their rifles

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<v Speaker 1>had been named after him. So I've just come across

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of stories here and there where there's a

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<v Speaker 1>president or a future president involved. I guess that's just

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<v Speaker 1>to add credibility to the story.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's interesting. I had forgotten about that element of

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<v Speaker 3>the Winchester House. But I think you're exactly right. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>it's you know, what more credible eyewitness can you ask

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<v Speaker 3>for than that? I mean, to this day, UFO proponents

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<v Speaker 3>still Harpo and Carter's president. Carter's you know, a legislating

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<v Speaker 3>of a UFO back in seventy something, so yeah, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I'm high right.

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<v Speaker 1>It is a haunted hotel in Santa Cruz called the

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<v Speaker 1>Brookdale Lodge, and apparently I think Herbert Hoover visited there

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<v Speaker 1>and saw a ghost as well. And he actually did visit,

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<v Speaker 1>he was a guest at the hotel, but I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think there are any there's any evidence that he saw

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<v Speaker 1>a ghost or or made any claims about that. I

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<v Speaker 1>think again, it's just trying to build some kind of

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<v Speaker 1>credibility to the stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think having somebody reputable being involved does help,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think it, you know, casually. I think it'd

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00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.079
<v Speaker 2>be nicer if we had their first hand accounts, which

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<v Speaker 2>in these cases we don't because I don't think they exist.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I thought was interesting about the Bell witch

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<v Speaker 2>case is it starts out and it sounds like a

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<v Speaker 2>classic haunting or a poultry geist attack much more than

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<v Speaker 2>a witch attack. Once it gets going, there's banging on

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<v Speaker 2>the walls, people are being poked and prodded, Dishes are

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<v Speaker 2>flying around and breaking. So even as you know, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know a lot about pre nineteen hundred pultruc

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<v Speaker 2>iiced attacks. This sounds much more like a poultry iced

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<v Speaker 2>attack in the way it's written.

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00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:02.559
<v Speaker 1>So, well, this was sort of around the time or

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<v Speaker 1>just after the witch crazes in Europe, wasn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>No, this is eighteen Well, you mean that allegedly took place, right, mean,

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00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.440
<v Speaker 2>so there's the events took place in the very early

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen hundreds, But then the book's actually written in the eighteen.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, when the alleged events took place, that would

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<v Speaker 1>have been around the time of the end of the

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<v Speaker 1>witch craze. So I'm wondering if Witch was an interpretation

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<v Speaker 1>of the phenomena at that time.

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<v Speaker 3>That's actually interesting. In the book they use of variety terms.

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<v Speaker 3>At one point, it's referred to as a goblin, a gnome,

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<v Speaker 3>and a gremlin, and a witch and a ghost. It's

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<v Speaker 3>there's I counted about a half a dozen. Yeah, pretty

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00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.759
<v Speaker 3>much whatever you want, I mean, And which of course

319
00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.960
<v Speaker 3>helps for the reader in terms of similaritude, because that way,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, if if whatever Ingram is telling you, if

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<v Speaker 3>it doesn't fit your conception of which or a ghost,

322
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<v Speaker 3>well if you think it if you believe in goblins

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<v Speaker 3>or gremlins or fairies or whatever the hell you want.

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<v Speaker 3>You can sort of say, well, okay, because it's given

325
00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.680
<v Speaker 3>a variety of possible labels, that sort of gives you

326
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:13.160
<v Speaker 3>a bunch of different outs. If you don't think that

327
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.680
<v Speaker 3>it really fits the characteristics of any one of them,

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<v Speaker 3>let me go ahead, Go ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>Kind of reminds me of Jeff the Talking mongoose a bit,

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00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:28.880
<v Speaker 1>does y Poltergeist. Yes, that sort of changes in the

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<v Speaker 1>way that people perceive it.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's interesting because you know, with Jeff the Talking mangos,

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<v Speaker 2>we know that whether that was a real animal or not,

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00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:41.759
<v Speaker 2>or a real you know, a real it really took place.

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00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.160
<v Speaker 2>In other words, even though it was almost certainly a hoax,

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00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:50.079
<v Speaker 2>that people really did write down contemporaneous records from multiple

337
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<v Speaker 2>sources that they went there and heard strange things.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Oh yeah, there were journalists who went there and

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<v Speaker 1>they even sent evidence to the British Zoological Society. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's not an urban legend.

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<v Speaker 2>As such, right right, And in this case, it appears

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00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:10.240
<v Speaker 2>to have sprung, you know, fully formed from Ingram's imagination,

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00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.240
<v Speaker 2>because there doesn't seem to be or at least there's

344
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:18.079
<v Speaker 2>no written record of these events that predates his book,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a telling clue.

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00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:24.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's that's one thing that struck me because I

347
00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:27.119
<v Speaker 3>actually read the book on the plane on the plane back,

348
00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:29.359
<v Speaker 3>and I, in fact, I really recommend that, you know,

349
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:31.839
<v Speaker 3>just as just as part of a course of you know,

350
00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.960
<v Speaker 3>when when possible, consulting the original source. People are really

351
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.680
<v Speaker 3>interested in, you know, in getting into the story. You know,

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00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:42.960
<v Speaker 3>you're much better off reading the original source because we

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00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.279
<v Speaker 3>actually have it here rather than you know, any of

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<v Speaker 3>the different variations. It's called authenticated History of the Bell

355
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<v Speaker 3>Witch and Other Stories, the world's Greatest unexplained phenomena by M. V.

356
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<v Speaker 3>Ingram And And that's exactly right. I mean, as I

357
00:20:57.799 --> 00:20:59.839
<v Speaker 3>was reading the book, I was taking notes on the

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<v Speaker 3>plane and writing in the margins, and repeatedly it refers

359
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<v Speaker 3>to all these experts that came from far and wide,

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<v Speaker 3>the committees, and you know, uh, you know, Andrew, Andrew Jackson,

361
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.559
<v Speaker 3>just everybody. And there's you know, there's dozens and dozens,

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<v Speaker 3>if not thousands of people who were supposed to have

363
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.119
<v Speaker 3>been witnessed to this, either first hand or secondhand, or

364
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<v Speaker 3>heard about over elms. And where are they? I mean,

365
00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:27.839
<v Speaker 3>if if this really is a true story, you would

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<v Speaker 3>think that this is well known throughout the county, it says, uh,

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<v Speaker 3>and it would lists all these people that came, detectives came,

368
00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:40.920
<v Speaker 3>and yet there seems to be no written evidence, written

369
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<v Speaker 3>by anybody else anywhere that that mentions this.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. In fact, the if you're interested the you can

371
00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:51.720
<v Speaker 2>get the kindle edition of this for ninety nine cents.

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00:21:52.759 --> 00:21:57.240
<v Speaker 2>So it's and it's really well done. Plus you can

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00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:01.000
<v Speaker 2>search it, so I find that extremely helpful. Wh I'm

374
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.000
<v Speaker 2>doing researches. You can actually do a word search to

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<v Speaker 2>find particular things within the text.

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<v Speaker 1>Naughty words.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, well, you could look for the word cave and

378
00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:12.880
<v Speaker 2>find out why they've got a cave on the property

379
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:15.279
<v Speaker 2>that's inside a barn and cost twelve dollars to visit.

380
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what is the connection of the cave?

381
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.079
<v Speaker 2>Apparently there's a story that Betsy Bell and some friends

382
00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:25.240
<v Speaker 2>went into the cave and while they were in the cave,

383
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.920
<v Speaker 2>a boy got stuck in a hole, and the witch

384
00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:32.400
<v Speaker 2>pulled the boy out of the hole and then lectured

385
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<v Speaker 2>the kids on the dangers of going into a cave. Oh,

386
00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.000
<v Speaker 2>so it was a good Well, see, here's the thing.

387
00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:42.079
<v Speaker 2>Intermittently in the story, the witch does good things and

388
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.359
<v Speaker 2>friendly things and then really bad things and by the

389
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:46.720
<v Speaker 2>end murder.

390
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<v Speaker 3>No, it's absolutely yeah, it's just you know, I was

391
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:55.680
<v Speaker 3>reading the story, and you know, the story has and

392
00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:59.319
<v Speaker 3>they use the word story advisedly. It has long passages

393
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:04.839
<v Speaker 3>of long conversations, very pleasant conversations. The belle Wich gives

394
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:08.759
<v Speaker 3>the family gifts. They they talk about matters of the day,

395
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:12.400
<v Speaker 3>they hang out, they chat, you know, they and then

396
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:14.640
<v Speaker 3>in other parts, you know, there the bell which is

397
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.279
<v Speaker 3>making making one of the daughters vomit up pins and needles,

398
00:23:19.400 --> 00:23:23.000
<v Speaker 3>and it's it's just remarkable, you know, the the if

399
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:27.160
<v Speaker 3>this really is a true story, then then it's amazing

400
00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:30.759
<v Speaker 3>how how bad the ghost communication has gotten over the

401
00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.960
<v Speaker 3>past one hundred and fifty years. You know, I mean

402
00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.640
<v Speaker 3>there's you know again, pages and pages of direct quotes

403
00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:41.119
<v Speaker 3>of you know, clear language, you know, creative language, you know,

404
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.319
<v Speaker 3>all these sort of things and these days were reduced

405
00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:46.880
<v Speaker 3>to e vps. It's it's like wow, points.

406
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:52.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So it creates this interesting distinction, especially if you're

407
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:54.799
<v Speaker 2>right about your hypothesis. Been let's we'll talk about that

408
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:58.920
<v Speaker 2>in just a second. You've got authentic ghost stories where

409
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.599
<v Speaker 2>people really believe they seen a ghost. And then you've

410
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:09.680
<v Speaker 2>got ghost legends, word of mouth stories that are ostensibly

411
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.960
<v Speaker 2>based on true things but are really part of folklore

412
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.920
<v Speaker 2>where the original person is never identified, or if they

413
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.960
<v Speaker 2>are identified, they never really took place the way it's

414
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.839
<v Speaker 2>claimed are it's a friend of a friend. And then

415
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:29.119
<v Speaker 2>you've got fiction which is given credibility by its use

416
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:32.319
<v Speaker 2>of real people, and in which one of those three

417
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:33.640
<v Speaker 2>do you think this has been.

418
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:37.799
<v Speaker 3>I think this is fiction that's given credibility by the

419
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.759
<v Speaker 3>use of real people. And again, this is a This

420
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.839
<v Speaker 3>is certainly not unknown today. I mean, you know, you

421
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:46.400
<v Speaker 3>can't you can't, you know, go in a video store

422
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:49.640
<v Speaker 3>rent a movie without you know, some horror film routinely

423
00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:51.599
<v Speaker 3>being claimed as being based on a true story or

424
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:54.480
<v Speaker 3>based on true events. And of course there's been a

425
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:58.279
<v Speaker 3>couple of films made adapted from this. But this is

426
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:01.400
<v Speaker 3>nothing new. You know. Sometimes I talked to people who

427
00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:02.960
<v Speaker 3>are like, oh, well, you know this was written you know,

428
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.440
<v Speaker 3>one hundred years ago. It must be true. It's like, yeah,

429
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:11.000
<v Speaker 3>because nobody, you know, nobody, nobody told falsehoods. There's no

430
00:25:11.079 --> 00:25:14.200
<v Speaker 3>sorts of real journalism or newspaper hoaxes, you know, one

431
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.640
<v Speaker 3>hundred two hundred years ago. But yeah, I mean obviously

432
00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:20.920
<v Speaker 3>if you can, if you can, if you can use

433
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.720
<v Speaker 3>real places and real people, then that adds to to

434
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.599
<v Speaker 3>the realism. And in fact, this actually reminded me quite

435
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:29.759
<v Speaker 3>a bit of my investigation into the White Witch of

436
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.759
<v Speaker 3>Rose Hall in montego By, Jamaica, which I wrote about

437
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.759
<v Speaker 3>in a couple of places, including one of my books,

438
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.720
<v Speaker 3>where you Know it was there's this whole elaborate ghost

439
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.759
<v Speaker 3>story based on ostensibly real people. They're you know, real

440
00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.319
<v Speaker 3>real names that happened a long, long time ago, but

441
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.000
<v Speaker 3>when you look more closely at it, there's just simply

442
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:51.599
<v Speaker 3>nothing to it.

443
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.759
<v Speaker 2>So in modern times, the people who did the blair

444
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.599
<v Speaker 2>Witch Project actually based the idea of the blair Witch

445
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:05.519
<v Speaker 2>Project after having heard the Belwich story, and in the

446
00:26:05.559 --> 00:26:09.400
<v Speaker 2>way they presented the blair Witch Project was as though

447
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.960
<v Speaker 2>it were a real event. It was a found footage

448
00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:16.880
<v Speaker 2>and part of the story. Although you could find the

449
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:19.839
<v Speaker 2>answer pretty readily on the internet, that was at a

450
00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:24.279
<v Speaker 2>time when people still really didn't understand, you know, there

451
00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:26.720
<v Speaker 2>wasn't It wasn't as easy apparently because lots of people

452
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:28.599
<v Speaker 2>didn't know if it was real or not, and thought

453
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:31.359
<v Speaker 2>it was real and in fact, the filmmakers still get

454
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:35.720
<v Speaker 2>contacted by this disturbed me police departments wondering what happened

455
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:36.319
<v Speaker 2>with the case.

456
00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:42.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, I saw a midnight screening of it in Sydney

457
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.160
<v Speaker 1>at the time when it came out, and it was

458
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.559
<v Speaker 1>presented in Australia at its release as being a true story,

459
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.079
<v Speaker 1>and so there's a lot of hype and media about that.

460
00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:52.960
<v Speaker 1>That was the way that everyone saw it there, at

461
00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:53.720
<v Speaker 1>least to begin with.

462
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:58.799
<v Speaker 2>So your contention, Ben, is that this book is doing

463
00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:01.319
<v Speaker 2>the same sort of thing. It's a fiction, but it's

464
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:05.759
<v Speaker 2>being presented as real to give it greater I want

465
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:07.319
<v Speaker 2>to say, very similar to but I don't want to

466
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:09.160
<v Speaker 2>say it incorrectly because that's one of those words I read,

467
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:10.039
<v Speaker 2>but don't say.

468
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:15.440
<v Speaker 3>That sounds right. No, I've heard Yeah, the Paradigams and all.

469
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Those exactly No. I think there's a vast chasm between

470
00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:21.440
<v Speaker 2>the words I know and I know how to.

471
00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:26.160
<v Speaker 3>Say the ones who knows. No, I think that's exactly right.

472
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.400
<v Speaker 3>And the thing to keep in mind is that is

473
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:33.519
<v Speaker 3>it unless you're writing some sort of uh, you know,

474
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.279
<v Speaker 3>fantasy or science fiction that's really out there, you know,

475
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:42.640
<v Speaker 3>you are sort of constrained to using real places. The

476
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:45.960
<v Speaker 3>most you know, elaborate fiction novels of you know, serial

477
00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:48.880
<v Speaker 3>killers and monsters and lever else are set you know

478
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:53.720
<v Speaker 3>here now War the World's the nineteen thirty eight broadcast

479
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:57.440
<v Speaker 3>was supposed to be going on, you know, in h

480
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:00.000
<v Speaker 3>on the East Coast in New York and New Jersey,

481
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.200
<v Speaker 3>of course, adapted by it by Wells. But but again,

482
00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:07.680
<v Speaker 3>so you know, in a way, it's it shouldn't surprise

483
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:12.440
<v Speaker 3>anybody that writers use. Writers use what's around them, and

484
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:15.640
<v Speaker 3>they use real places, and sometimes they use real figures.

485
00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:18.880
<v Speaker 3>That has nothing to do with whether or not whether

486
00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:20.480
<v Speaker 3>the story is actually true or not.

487
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:22.559
<v Speaker 2>And now they say, right, what you know, which is

488
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:26.720
<v Speaker 2>why all my stories are about fast food and masturbation exactly.

489
00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:32.400
<v Speaker 1>That won't make your story.

490
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:33.720
<v Speaker 3>What's that you do?

491
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:35.680
<v Speaker 1>A plug for your story now, which I still haven't.

492
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:37.680
<v Speaker 2>Great I'm looking well, I plugged it in the last episode,

493
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.200
<v Speaker 2>so we're cool. Although if you want to read an

494
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:47.680
<v Speaker 2>incredibly good story, go find Weird Tales and read my story.

495
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:49.279
<v Speaker 3>What's the title of it.

496
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.400
<v Speaker 2>I believe it's called The Thing in the Cellar. It

497
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.720
<v Speaker 2>was originally called The Horror in the Cellar, but when

498
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:56.359
<v Speaker 2>they did a title search, they found that that was

499
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:57.319
<v Speaker 2>already used.

500
00:28:57.160 --> 00:28:59.720
<v Speaker 3>So they thought you meant horror in the cellar, right right.

501
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:03.920
<v Speaker 2>It was autobiographical. It was about my experience raising money

502
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:08.200
<v Speaker 2>for my family by performing terrible, terrible acts in the

503
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:09.119
<v Speaker 2>basement for money.

504
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:11.119
<v Speaker 3>Frankly, I'm interested in that one. So if you could

505
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:12.079
<v Speaker 3>write that one, that'd be great.

506
00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:14.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's good stuff. The Kiddel addition will be out

507
00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:16.839
<v Speaker 2>later today. Yeah.

508
00:29:19.880 --> 00:29:21.480
<v Speaker 3>Well, I have to say that that when I was

509
00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:24.599
<v Speaker 3>reading it, there's there's one particular phrase in the in

510
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:26.839
<v Speaker 3>the whole book that I really enjoyed, and it was

511
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:30.319
<v Speaker 3>occurs on page two one when they ask Uncle Zeke.

512
00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:33.759
<v Speaker 3>He says, it's it's great. I mean, it could have

513
00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:36.200
<v Speaker 3>been ripped from from you know, ghost hunters. He says,

514
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:39.559
<v Speaker 3>it's because it's a Native Native American burial ground.

515
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:43.480
<v Speaker 1>That explains everything.

516
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:45.440
<v Speaker 3>Right, Well, there you go. You know, we got an

517
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:46.960
<v Speaker 3>Indian barrel ground. What else could it be?

518
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:47.519
<v Speaker 2>Uh?

519
00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:49.559
<v Speaker 3>And it was just funny to just see something written

520
00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:53.599
<v Speaker 3>so long ago that that again in many ways that

521
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:56.960
<v Speaker 3>the whole ghost hunting law and vernacular and all that

522
00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:01.400
<v Speaker 3>really hasn't changed much. Well, it was interesting when I

523
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.119
<v Speaker 3>was researching the Skeptical Inquiry article for u S. I.

524
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:08.359
<v Speaker 3>One of the first things I did, which apparently no

525
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:10.960
<v Speaker 3>one else did in terms of, you know, certain the

526
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:14.119
<v Speaker 3>ghostwriters is I went back and looked at the folklore

527
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:16.279
<v Speaker 3>on it. In fact, there's quite a bit of folklore,

528
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:18.839
<v Speaker 3>and they'll bell which stories identified as legend as far

529
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.759
<v Speaker 3>back as the nineteen thirties. Yeah, and was discussed in,

530
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.200
<v Speaker 3>for example, of the Journal of American Folklore in nineteen

531
00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:27.680
<v Speaker 3>thirty four. I found a couple of references there, and

532
00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:28.440
<v Speaker 3>I looked that up.

533
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:30.640
<v Speaker 1>So now it's true.

534
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.400
<v Speaker 3>Right there you go then right, sort of sort of

535
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:38.440
<v Speaker 3>whitewash into the truth. But yeah, I mean, so you know,

536
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.240
<v Speaker 3>it's not as if folklsts are unaware of this. In fact,

537
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:44.519
<v Speaker 3>the folklorsts have been writing about it for you know,

538
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.480
<v Speaker 3>eighty or more years. It's just that the ghost hunters

539
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.200
<v Speaker 3>and ghost investigators either haven't thought to look at the

540
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:55.039
<v Speaker 3>folklore research or just ignored it because they're just so

541
00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.640
<v Speaker 3>convinced that it's a true story and not folklore.

542
00:30:58.279 --> 00:30:59.799
<v Speaker 2>Well you go ahead.

543
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Speaker 1>Have you gone onto YouTube and seeing some of the

544
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:04.839
<v Speaker 1>very convincing evidence that these people come up with.

545
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:09.920
<v Speaker 3>I haven't. Can you summarize for us oh alps. Oh

546
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:10.839
<v Speaker 3>there you go.

547
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Strange inexplicable lights and voices e vps. Of course, you

548
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:22.920
<v Speaker 1>know the drill, the usual stuff come today.

549
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.720
<v Speaker 2>Not good enough? You know, this focal are thing is

550
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:29.759
<v Speaker 2>funny because I had There's a an old house north

551
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:34.279
<v Speaker 2>of where I live called Barnsley Gardens. It was the

552
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Barnsley family built this huge European style estate and like

553
00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:43.359
<v Speaker 2>built this elaborate European garden and brought in trees and

554
00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:49.599
<v Speaker 2>fancy plants, fancy imported things. Anyway, beautiful place. But it

555
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:55.480
<v Speaker 2>went into ruin and became this sort of desolate you know,

556
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:58.720
<v Speaker 2>ruined with this what looks almost like a castle on

557
00:31:58.759 --> 00:32:02.920
<v Speaker 2>the grounds, and ghost stories abounded, and a lot of

558
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:06.720
<v Speaker 2>them centered around this terrible feud some of the family

559
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:10.039
<v Speaker 2>members had over a particular girl, and there was a

560
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>story about a poison duel and anyway beautiful story. But

561
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.079
<v Speaker 2>I had the occasion to read the actual history of

562
00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:24.480
<v Speaker 2>the site, from the history of Bartok County, and like

563
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:26.839
<v Speaker 2>the stories I'd heard my whole life, these these sort

564
00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:33.039
<v Speaker 2>of romantic Gothic love stories were just completely fabricated and

565
00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:35.720
<v Speaker 2>the real story is very interesting, but nothing to do

566
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:40.240
<v Speaker 2>with the ghost stories. So that kind of thing happens.

567
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:43.079
<v Speaker 2>And I think these stories, as with all folklore, take

568
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.079
<v Speaker 2>on a life of their own and continue to evolve.

569
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:50.640
<v Speaker 2>So you know, if there may still be versions of

570
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:53.440
<v Speaker 2>that story told, you know on the tours of the grounds,

571
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:55.440
<v Speaker 2>because I know they still talk about ghosts up there.

572
00:32:56.519 --> 00:32:58.759
<v Speaker 2>But I imagine over the years as people passed the

573
00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:01.119
<v Speaker 2>stories along and different you know, people come and go,

574
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:04.599
<v Speaker 2>and those stories are going to continue to change.

575
00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:09.799
<v Speaker 1>So I think which stories sound like choose your own adventure.

576
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:11.519
<v Speaker 1>They're just so many variations.

577
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:13.599
<v Speaker 2>There are a lot of variations if you.

578
00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:19.000
<v Speaker 3>Believe go to page five, page thirteen if you think

579
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:21.240
<v Speaker 3>this is both the end of the book, if you

580
00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:22.519
<v Speaker 3>believe it by another book.

581
00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:27.759
<v Speaker 2>So there's a movie, at least one movie that there's

582
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:31.480
<v Speaker 2>actually three, I think, but one movie that was got

583
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:36.559
<v Speaker 2>mainstream release, and that's an American haunting that has Donald

584
00:33:36.599 --> 00:33:42.759
<v Speaker 2>Sutherland and what's Sissy's basic I think, And well, I

585
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>don't that story changes a lot of things which annoyed

586
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:52.000
<v Speaker 2>some you know, ghosts, u you know, paranormal people or

587
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.480
<v Speaker 2>people who like the paranormal. They like some authenticity in

588
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:56.680
<v Speaker 2>their story. But apparently the source materials.

589
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:57.319
<v Speaker 1>Authenticity in Folk.

590
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:00.640
<v Speaker 2>Right. Well, you know, I guess what I was gonna

591
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:02.960
<v Speaker 2>say about it. The real claim to fame for that film,

592
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:07.000
<v Speaker 2>in my mind, is that it's the second film by

593
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:11.679
<v Speaker 2>the guy who directed the Dudges and Dragons movie. That's uh,

594
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:15.119
<v Speaker 2>which was a huge disappointment. Although it's the only film

595
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.039
<v Speaker 2>I remember that has a beholder in it.

596
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.000
<v Speaker 3>So they had Jeremy Irons in it, didn't it?

597
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:21.880
<v Speaker 2>He did it ever?

598
00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.800
<v Speaker 3>Man, Yeah, Jeremy.

599
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.559
<v Speaker 2>If you like to watch Jeremy Iers chew up some scenery, man,

600
00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:32.159
<v Speaker 2>that that is the film to watch. You Just he

601
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.079
<v Speaker 2>cranks it up to eleven in that movie. So it's

602
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.519
<v Speaker 2>a piece of crap, but it's very engaging, it's very

603
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:43.119
<v Speaker 2>fun to watch. So yeah. So, but that's the Dudges

604
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.599
<v Speaker 2>and Dragons movie. I haven't watched The American Haunting yet.

605
00:34:46.119 --> 00:34:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I haven't. I'd kind of like to watch it this

606
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.920
<v Speaker 2>week since it seems very fresh in my mind. But

607
00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:57.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, I I think it's just kind of disappointing

608
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:02.320
<v Speaker 2>that what is widely touted as being one of the

609
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:09.079
<v Speaker 2>most best documented ghost cases in American history is only

610
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:12.480
<v Speaker 2>documented through fiction. That's just really really sad.

611
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.679
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean well, I mean yeah, as you know,

612
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:18.599
<v Speaker 3>to my mind, the remarkable thing is just you know

613
00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:20.840
<v Speaker 3>how often it's been written up as a true story.

614
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean over and over and over again. Ghosts write,

615
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:29.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, ghost ghostwriters, people write about ghosts, you know

616
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.880
<v Speaker 3>Brad Steiger for example, and you know many others. They

617
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:34.920
<v Speaker 3>just repeat it and they just assume it's true. And

618
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.400
<v Speaker 3>there's again there's no attempt to investigate it's all. It's

619
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:40.679
<v Speaker 3>all just laid out there as if well, this is

620
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:44.159
<v Speaker 3>this is the real deal. Let me, let me I

621
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.679
<v Speaker 3>have one particular section that I want to read from

622
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:50.599
<v Speaker 3>this book called The Haunting of America by William Burns

623
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 3>and Joel Martin, because again it really, it really crystallizes

624
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.480
<v Speaker 3>their argument. It says, this is on page one forty five.

625
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:01.119
<v Speaker 3>It says, was young Betsy the poultry agent whose own

626
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:04.119
<v Speaker 3>telekinetic energy caused some of the horrific activity in her

627
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:07.840
<v Speaker 3>family's home. Some reachers, some researchers, have theorized that Betsy,

628
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:11.360
<v Speaker 3>under emotional stress, may have acted out of some sort

629
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:14.519
<v Speaker 3>of subconscious resentment for her father that manifested itself in

630
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:18.000
<v Speaker 3>the form of psychic energy, responsible for creating the poultrygeist

631
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:23.239
<v Speaker 3>havoc skeptics blamed Betsy, accusing her or fabricating the Bellwich phenomena. However,

632
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:25.639
<v Speaker 3>no one has ever proved that, and Bessie never again

633
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:30.039
<v Speaker 3>spoke of her family's troubles. Now you just did. There's

634
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:34.039
<v Speaker 3>so many things when you're just like there, it's you

635
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:38.840
<v Speaker 3>to to see. To see skeptics blame Bessie accusing him, fabricating,

636
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:43.519
<v Speaker 3>fabricating the Bellwich phenomena. You know, it's it's totally misses

637
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:45.920
<v Speaker 3>the point. It's like arguing whether or not you know

638
00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:49.719
<v Speaker 3>Huckleberry Finn's father actually did beat him in the Mark

639
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:53.159
<v Speaker 3>Twain novel. Well, in the novel, yes he beat him,

640
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:56.599
<v Speaker 3>but it's a fictional character. You're you can't take it

641
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:59.480
<v Speaker 3>out of the fictional context and ask these questions. It's

642
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:01.039
<v Speaker 3>it's just ridiculous.

643
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:06.360
<v Speaker 1>It's a very modern theory about how that occurred, exactly

644
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:11.039
<v Speaker 1>the geist. But it reminds me again, I'm making drawing

645
00:37:11.079 --> 00:37:13.360
<v Speaker 1>lots of parallels. But I think we've talked about the

646
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:14.960
<v Speaker 1>guy Ry ghost before, haven't we.

647
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:15.599
<v Speaker 2>Briefly?

648
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:20.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the place it's about six hours north of Sydney,

649
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:24.159
<v Speaker 1>and I was a puled thegeist claim going back to

650
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:27.920
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen twenties, and yeah, I'm just drawing lots of

651
00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:32.360
<v Speaker 1>parallels to that. And again it was a famous person

652
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 1>that visited there. It was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who's

653
00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:38.840
<v Speaker 1>gone to investigate the sign. It was a friend of his,

654
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:43.320
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't actually him. But again you have the same

655
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:46.840
<v Speaker 1>young girl who is experiencing all of this phenomena, and

656
00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:50.559
<v Speaker 1>then she's discredited in future. But this is a true story,

657
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:55.840
<v Speaker 1>not in so far as that it's a paranormal case,

658
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:58.679
<v Speaker 1>but in so far as that had actually occurred and

659
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.239
<v Speaker 1>that it is well documented. So that's where it differs.

660
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:05.280
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I think this might be just a very

661
00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:09.679
<v Speaker 1>early predecessor to all of these contemporary claims as well,

662
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:13.559
<v Speaker 1>and an explanation for a lot of contemporary claims how

663
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:14.159
<v Speaker 1>they came about.

664
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it'd be interesting to know how many copies of

665
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:20.440
<v Speaker 2>this book got sold, because I know that the story

666
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:22.679
<v Speaker 2>is well known in Tennessee. But there seemed to be

667
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of a resurgence of interest when this, you know,

668
00:38:26.760 --> 00:38:29.159
<v Speaker 2>American Haunting film came out. Then everybody wanted to do

669
00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:32.199
<v Speaker 2>a kind of a knockoff Bell Witch movie, right, And

670
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:35.599
<v Speaker 2>so I don't know when Blair.

671
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.519
<v Speaker 1>Witch came out as well. I think the two were

672
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:39.280
<v Speaker 1>feeding off each other for publicity.

673
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:43.159
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I think so. And also the you know that

674
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:46.320
<v Speaker 2>that excerpt being just read reminds me of that most

675
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:52.039
<v Speaker 2>important thing. It's really easy to hear this case to go, oh, well, listen.

676
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:54.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, they had a teenage girl, her name was Betsie.

677
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:56.920
<v Speaker 2>She was having trouble with a lover. There was a

678
00:38:56.920 --> 00:39:00.320
<v Speaker 2>lot of stuff going on. You know, easily she could

679
00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:03.440
<v Speaker 2>have been hoaxing this whole thing, and that this could

680
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:06.199
<v Speaker 2>have been just a case of her acting out. And

681
00:39:06.199 --> 00:39:09.679
<v Speaker 2>that's a great explanation, you know, except for the part

682
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:12.400
<v Speaker 2>where you really need to check first to see if

683
00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:15.400
<v Speaker 2>anything happened at all. Right, right, you know you have

684
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:19.000
<v Speaker 2>to take the null hypothesis. Yeah, so I'd say that's

685
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:21.280
<v Speaker 2>more of a scofftick tactic than a skeptic.

686
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.360
<v Speaker 3>Well, no, I mean you're exactly right. I mean it's

687
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:27.159
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's essentially, you know, you go back to

688
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.639
<v Speaker 3>Raeheyman's category categorical imperative, you know, where before you try

689
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.559
<v Speaker 3>to explain something, make sure that it actually happened, you know,

690
00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:37.760
<v Speaker 3>before you start positing theories about what the ghost could

691
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.400
<v Speaker 3>have been. Was it her psychic energies. Was it? This

692
00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:42.880
<v Speaker 3>was it? That was it? Actually? You know Native American

693
00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:47.559
<v Speaker 3>bariograms as the old consequential dark. He said, you know what,

694
00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:49.239
<v Speaker 3>what was this? Before you spend a lot of time

695
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:53.000
<v Speaker 3>and energy, you know, going to explanations, question your assumptions,

696
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.440
<v Speaker 3>question your premises, and say well is this true? Is

697
00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:58.119
<v Speaker 3>this real? Before you go any further.

698
00:39:58.840 --> 00:39:59.719
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, very first.

699
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:05.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a right inside the cave, there is allegedly

700
00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:11.559
<v Speaker 2>an Indian burial ground. There's sort of a rectangular shaped

701
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:16.199
<v Speaker 2>box that appears to have collapsed, and in the legend,

702
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:20.800
<v Speaker 2>apparently I guess, at one point the witch claims she's

703
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:24.079
<v Speaker 2>the ghost of someone who died and the part of

704
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:28.960
<v Speaker 2>their skeleton or their tooth was under the house. Yeah.

705
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, there's this weird section where or they spend like

706
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:34.119
<v Speaker 3>four or five pages like this witch is pissed off

707
00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:36.840
<v Speaker 3>because she's missing a tooth, and I'm like, go find

708
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:37.320
<v Speaker 3>a dentist.

709
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:41.440
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, right, it's really odd, But again, I've

710
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:46.639
<v Speaker 2>seen the picture of the Indian so called Indian burial. Now,

711
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:49.000
<v Speaker 2>my understanding was that the Cherokee, who would have been

712
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:53.480
<v Speaker 2>the predominant, you know, tribal presence in that region buryed,

713
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.800
<v Speaker 2>did ground burials, and they did it usually like a

714
00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:58.039
<v Speaker 2>day or two or like either like the day of

715
00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:02.280
<v Speaker 2>a right after the death, you know.

716
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:02.719
<v Speaker 1>Books.

717
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:04.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, no, I don't know if they used the box

718
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.840
<v Speaker 2>or not. You know, eighteen, you know, nineteen would have

719
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:10.840
<v Speaker 2>been you know, and then this would have predated that,

720
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:12.880
<v Speaker 2>so this would have been probably the late seventeen hundreds.

721
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:16.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm not really sure if they buried in coffins or

722
00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:18.199
<v Speaker 2>if they're just buried in the ground, but I doubt

723
00:41:18.199 --> 00:41:20.639
<v Speaker 2>they use coffins, just because their burial beliefs, as I

724
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:24.000
<v Speaker 2>understand them, were that they understood that the body goes

725
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:26.599
<v Speaker 2>back to nature, and that it makes sense to bury

726
00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:28.840
<v Speaker 2>so that the you know, body can feed the trees

727
00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:32.760
<v Speaker 2>and the plants and you know, very circle of life, right,

728
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:36.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, so inside a cave, inside a stone box

729
00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:39.639
<v Speaker 2>doesn't sound right. I actually reached out to Ken Fader

730
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.360
<v Speaker 2>for end of the show to ask him about this.

731
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:47.320
<v Speaker 2>I sent him some documentation about the claims, and hopefully

732
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:48.679
<v Speaker 2>he'll get back. I don't know if he'll get back

733
00:41:48.679 --> 00:41:51.519
<v Speaker 2>in time for this recording, but if not, I'll update

734
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:53.039
<v Speaker 2>the Facebook page of the show notes.

735
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:57.559
<v Speaker 3>It's my understanding just fyo that he doesn't respond to

736
00:41:57.599 --> 00:41:59.840
<v Speaker 3>emails unless use the F word, so you might want

737
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:00.559
<v Speaker 3>to we send that.

738
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh, don't worry. I did, yeah, by which I mean

739
00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.719
<v Speaker 2>yeah answer. I said, hey, ken, I got a question.

740
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:13.880
<v Speaker 2>If you have a minute, then not too much of that, folks.

741
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:15.559
<v Speaker 2>I hate putting all those beepcent.

742
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:18.760
<v Speaker 1>At this time.

743
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:23.360
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I'm hoping. You know. My gut feeling, which

744
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:26.039
<v Speaker 2>is what most skeptics go by, right, is that this

745
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:28.400
<v Speaker 2>is probably not an Indian barrel, that there's some other

746
00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:32.360
<v Speaker 2>purpose for that box besides being uh, the location of

747
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:35.679
<v Speaker 2>dead Indians. One thing I can't tell from the photo

748
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:39.960
<v Speaker 2>is how big the box is. And I know that

749
00:42:40.119 --> 00:42:42.679
<v Speaker 2>while we were talking with Joe Nickel, he said he

750
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:46.280
<v Speaker 2>had some ideas about that box as well, so he

751
00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:47.440
<v Speaker 2>may be writing something up.

752
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:52.000
<v Speaker 1>We'll see Gus buried by the family or someone else.

753
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Well there was, I mean, there's nothing in the box.

754
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:57.159
<v Speaker 2>It just looks like it could be, you know, a

755
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:00.360
<v Speaker 2>trough for an animal, or it could be and it

756
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:01.800
<v Speaker 2>could be a number of things. I don't know what

757
00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:02.440
<v Speaker 2>it really is.

758
00:43:02.519 --> 00:43:03.760
<v Speaker 3>It could be an Indian dwarf.

759
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:07.000
<v Speaker 2>It could be an Indian dwarf. I like that expert

760
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:11.320
<v Speaker 2>than It could be it could be a storage box

761
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:13.000
<v Speaker 2>for the cave troll that you still live there.

762
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:18.239
<v Speaker 3>You could be feeding trot for chupacabra. Who knows.

763
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:20.719
<v Speaker 2>That's right, we don't know. We don't know this, so

764
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:22.360
<v Speaker 2>we don't know.

765
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:23.760
<v Speaker 3>Let's just admit that we don't know.

766
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:27.519
<v Speaker 2>Right, we start with saying we don't know, right anyway,

767
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:30.199
<v Speaker 2>I think that's that's the heart of this. So what

768
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:34.159
<v Speaker 2>what can we learn from from the Bellwich? What what's

769
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:38.719
<v Speaker 2>a lesson for skeptics or for anybody who wants to, uh,

770
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, investigate famous hauntings.

771
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:47.280
<v Speaker 1>I think to keep looking for prior sources, to try

772
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:49.880
<v Speaker 1>and find an original source and then to question that

773
00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:54.000
<v Speaker 1>and uh to to not look at a lot of

774
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:57.400
<v Speaker 1>contemporary sources and but able to to find the original

775
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:59.599
<v Speaker 1>one as best you can, and then to see if

776
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.400
<v Speaker 1>there's any any truth to that, any historical truth to that.

777
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:07.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. And also just

778
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:09.719
<v Speaker 3>to you know, look at these things in context. I mean,

779
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:11.880
<v Speaker 3>if you read, if you read the book, if you

780
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:14.239
<v Speaker 3>read you know Ingram's book about the Bell which it's

781
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:17.800
<v Speaker 3>clearly a novella. I mean, it's it's it's it's it's

782
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:20.719
<v Speaker 3>one of the novellas, it's Steve nevella, it's the long

783
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:25.039
<v Speaker 3>lost novella Brother. But no, it's it's obviously a novel.

784
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:28.599
<v Speaker 3>I mean it's you know, it's it's got direct quoted dialogue,

785
00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:30.920
<v Speaker 3>it's got drama, it's got being Lost in the Cave,

786
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:33.519
<v Speaker 3>which of course, you know Mark Twain wrote about in

787
00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:36.519
<v Speaker 3>Tom Sawyer. I mean, this is it's got so many

788
00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:40.679
<v Speaker 3>literary devices that that to to to to think or

789
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:44.159
<v Speaker 3>assume that this is somehow uh you know, a you know,

790
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:47.800
<v Speaker 3>an accounting of documented historical fact is ridiculous. I mean,

791
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.760
<v Speaker 3>you just I don't know how you can read the

792
00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:54.880
<v Speaker 3>book unless unless unless, of course, you know, you're unless

793
00:44:54.920 --> 00:44:57.320
<v Speaker 3>you you're working backwards and you know for a fact

794
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.960
<v Speaker 3>that the bell which case is true and this is

795
00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:02.480
<v Speaker 3>evidence for it. If you're reading, if you're working forward

796
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.920
<v Speaker 3>from the evidence to the conclusion, you're going to say, well,

797
00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:07.440
<v Speaker 3>hold on here, this is you know, this is just

798
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:08.360
<v Speaker 3>patently absurd.

799
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:10.719
<v Speaker 2>It would be interesting to go back and see if

800
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:15.960
<v Speaker 2>there were any reviews, contemporaneous reviews of his book In

801
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:17.639
<v Speaker 2>the in the in the in the Air, in the region,

802
00:45:17.719 --> 00:45:20.320
<v Speaker 2>you know you don't. That would be interesting because that

803
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:22.199
<v Speaker 2>would be the kind of thing like, really, I've never

804
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:26.159
<v Speaker 2>heard this story, but it sounds fascinating, you know, you

805
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:29.400
<v Speaker 2>would think that that would be well known if that

806
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:32.679
<v Speaker 2>that sort of legend was in your region. But what

807
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:38.800
<v Speaker 2>we can't we can't document negative evidence very well. We

808
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:40.400
<v Speaker 2>can search for it and say we can't find it,

809
00:45:40.440 --> 00:45:43.880
<v Speaker 2>but it's really hard to say, you know too much

810
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.039
<v Speaker 2>about the fact that it's not there. Right, So, so far,

811
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:50.280
<v Speaker 2>no one's found Betsy's uh, you know, any written allegations

812
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:53.280
<v Speaker 2>that Betsy did anything. No one's found the diary that

813
00:45:53.320 --> 00:46:00.639
<v Speaker 2>William Bell, Williams Bell supposedly gave the author these just

814
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:03.719
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing in the letters that were supposedly sent to him.

815
00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Those don't seem to exist.

816
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.119
<v Speaker 3>And it's also the stuff with Jackson.

817
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:10.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, yeah, there's so much stuff that doesn't exist

818
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:13.280
<v Speaker 2>that that's enough to call it a fraud in my opinion.

819
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:17.000
<v Speaker 1>But oh yeah, but with what does exist, the stories

820
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.920
<v Speaker 1>of witches and goblins, those were all popular beliefs of

821
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:23.920
<v Speaker 1>the time as well, and seems to be reinterpreted for

822
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:24.760
<v Speaker 1>today true.

823
00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 2>And he mentions that in the book that you know,

824
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:29.320
<v Speaker 2>as he points out in the intro, you know, I'm

825
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:35.880
<v Speaker 2>not here to talk about the theosophy or spiritualism or

826
00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:38.880
<v Speaker 2>whether or not ghost surreal. I'm just going to tell

827
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:43.760
<v Speaker 2>you these facts right, a lot easier, so he acknowledges,

828
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:45.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, most people don't believe in ghosts, you know,

829
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:46.840
<v Speaker 2>especially not in the daytime.

830
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:50.199
<v Speaker 3>Right right, Again, if you read there's quite a bit

831
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:52.239
<v Speaker 3>of the Bible in there. There's you know, you know,

832
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.639
<v Speaker 3>messages and and you know, and we mentioned earlier about

833
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:59.079
<v Speaker 3>how in some cases the bell which has this sort

834
00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:02.719
<v Speaker 3>of this benign social control, this you know, you know,

835
00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:05.239
<v Speaker 3>the teaching kids not to do bad things. Again, that

836
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:09.440
<v Speaker 3>that hearkens back directly to like Lairna, you know, the

837
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:11.519
<v Speaker 3>the evil witch. That's you know, telling kids to keep

838
00:47:11.559 --> 00:47:13.480
<v Speaker 3>out of the ditches for their own safety, or you know,

839
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:16.239
<v Speaker 3>don't go in the lake because you know, don't don't

840
00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:18.199
<v Speaker 3>go in the woods because boogieyman will get your the

841
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:21.360
<v Speaker 3>big photo of route. So again, these are if you're

842
00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:24.719
<v Speaker 3>looking at from a folkloric perspective. Uh, it's you know,

843
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.480
<v Speaker 3>all the elements are there. I mean, it's it's it's Christmas.

844
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:33.440
<v Speaker 3>The message here, message, messages, messages always do the right things.

845
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:35.039
<v Speaker 3>In fact that there's one section of the book where

846
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:39.880
<v Speaker 3>where the bell which actually punishes a lazy worker. There's

847
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:43.480
<v Speaker 3>a farm hand there who's who's not quite doing things

848
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:46.039
<v Speaker 3>up to stuff, and the bell witch comes and gives

849
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:48.519
<v Speaker 3>gives the boundary good shaking, and from that day on

850
00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:54.000
<v Speaker 3>the boy worked harder than ever. Blah blah blah blah blah.

851
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:55.719
<v Speaker 3>So frankly we need more of them.

852
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, as our moral guidance witches, right exactly? All right, Well,

853
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:10.119
<v Speaker 2>well now I feel like we're just here to pee

854
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:12.840
<v Speaker 2>on ghost stories and that's not quite right. So I

855
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:16.039
<v Speaker 2>mean I love ghost stories. I just I continue to

856
00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:22.199
<v Speaker 2>have this problem be forere they're supposedly true. You know.

857
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.119
<v Speaker 2>That's that's the thing, you know, when people think that

858
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:27.519
<v Speaker 2>stories that are clearly made up or not clearly made

859
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:31.320
<v Speaker 2>up but presented is true and are not true, and

860
00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:35.559
<v Speaker 2>the perpetrator knows they're not true, you know, is it

861
00:48:35.679 --> 00:48:38.880
<v Speaker 2>entirely for fun? You know? And now people are making

862
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:41.920
<v Speaker 2>a business on it. I mean there's quite literally a

863
00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:45.239
<v Speaker 2>cottage industry of bill Wich support.

864
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:49.920
<v Speaker 3>T shirts and cave tours and canoe tours, and you know, yeah,

865
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:52.440
<v Speaker 3>I mean there's there's lots of money to be made.

866
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:54.519
<v Speaker 3>And as you know, as Karen has pointed out before

867
00:48:54.679 --> 00:48:56.679
<v Speaker 3>the same thing with Bigfoot. You know, you go into

868
00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:59.920
<v Speaker 3>the Bigfoot country and there's Bigfoot burgers and Bigfoot Cafe

869
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:02.920
<v Speaker 3>t shirts and stuff, and so there's definitely an element

870
00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:04.440
<v Speaker 3>of explaining it for tourism.

871
00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:09.320
<v Speaker 2>Monster Thanks for listening to another episode of Monster Talk.

872
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:13.000
<v Speaker 2>You heard myself, Blake Smith and my co hosts doctor

873
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:17.559
<v Speaker 2>Karen Stolesnow and Benjamin Radford discussing the historical paranormal case

874
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:21.599
<v Speaker 2>known as the Bell Witch. Monster Talk is produced with

875
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.519
<v Speaker 2>the help of Skeptic Magazine. If you like magazines, you

876
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:28.119
<v Speaker 2>should get one. The opinions expressed on this show do

877
00:49:28.199 --> 00:49:31.920
<v Speaker 2>not necessarily reflect those of Skeptic Magazine or the Skeptic Society.

878
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:36.039
<v Speaker 2>We have got some fantastic interviews lined up already for

879
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:37.880
<v Speaker 2>this year, so please stay tuned to Monster Talk. In

880
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:41.320
<v Speaker 2>twenty thirteen, we got giant spiders and leaping strangers in

881
00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:42.239
<v Speaker 2>so much.

882
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:45.400
<v Speaker 4>More coming your way. Monster Talk theme music was by

883
00:49:45.440 --> 00:50:18.840
<v Speaker 4>Pete Stealing Monkeys.

884
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Did you know that you can now subscribe to Skeptic

885
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:32.920
<v Speaker 2>Magazine digitally? Just grab our free Skeptic Magazine app currently

886
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:37.840
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887
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:39.039
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888
00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:43.039
<v Speaker 1>Head over to skeptic dot com, slash magazine, slash app

889
00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:46.320
<v Speaker 1>to find out more and download more of your favorite

890
00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:47.400
<v Speaker 1>skeptic content.