Speaker 1: Hey, folks, welcome to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. This week,
Speaker 1: on your panel, you have Steve.
Speaker 2: Edwards Yo from a cold and rainy Oregon. How's it going.
Speaker 1: I'm Charles Maxwood from Top End Devs. It's cold here too.
Speaker 2: Oh man. Well, last week I was on a work
Speaker 2: trip down in two for one trip where I stay
Speaker 2: at my parents and then a bunch of people that
Speaker 2: I work with live in Tucson. I swear there and
Speaker 2: it was oh so nice. It was like mid eighties
Speaker 2: and sunny and clear, and of course you have to
Speaker 2: dress for inside the conference room because everything's over air conditioned,
Speaker 2: but oh so nice, sunny and clear. And then I
Speaker 2: came back at the cold and rainy.
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, yeah. I mean I'm training for a marathon.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go run the Phoenix Marathon in December.
Speaker 2: Oh really yeah, and.
Speaker 1: It's it's so coolie. I got some heated gloves finally,
Speaker 1: but I'm kind of curious to see what the weather
Speaker 1: will be like down there in December.
Speaker 2: Oh it'll be nice, yeah, I know, it cold. This
Speaker 2: is one of the last fur times of the year.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of counting on it being sixties.
Speaker 1: Be nice.
Speaker 2: So you haven't actually run a marathon yet, right? Is
Speaker 2: this the first one you're gonna run?
Speaker 1: I ran the Saint George Marathon in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: So oh okay, so do you have there's reason I'm
Speaker 2: asking this. Do you have one of those twenty six
Speaker 2: point two stickers on your vehicle or anything?
Speaker 1: You know that's on my truck? I do? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Say the sticker that I have on my truck and
Speaker 2: on my water bottle says zero point zero. I don't run,
Speaker 2: so I'm sure the antithesis of the runner. I leave
Speaker 2: holes in the pavement when I run, So that's why
Speaker 2: not exactly what you call light footed?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I go, I go run by the way, folks,
Speaker 1: we're just going to be catching up. We do have
Speaker 1: a few topics we're going to talk through the related
Speaker 1: to the JavaScript, but we're just catching up for a minute. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I go running to My father in law is always like,
Speaker 1: well is someone chasing you? Well?
Speaker 2: What's the Bible verse? Was it the evil? The evil?
Speaker 2: Evil ones flea though nobody pursues, you know, So that's
Speaker 2: my excuse for not running.
Speaker 1: Oh there you go, it's.
Speaker 2: The person property.
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's like, why why would you run because it
Speaker 1: feels good. Well, I've never feel good when I run.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean neither, I mean neither.
Speaker 1: But yeah. The other thing is is that my dad,
Speaker 1: he's he's been gone for what like eight years now,
Speaker 1: and he had all these health problems and I just
Speaker 1: don't want to go through what he went through. So, oh,
Speaker 1: just for my clack of exercise, you mean, well, he
Speaker 1: had some other stuff going on. He's gotten a car
Speaker 1: accident when I was twelve, and he developed fibromyalgia oof
Speaker 1: from that, and that was pretty rough on him. Really.
Speaker 2: I always thought that was just a genetic condition. I
Speaker 2: didn't realize you could get it like that.
Speaker 1: My understanding of his situation is that most people who
Speaker 1: have it, yeah, it's a geneticition, so they'll just develop it,
Speaker 1: you know, in their teens, and they'll just live with
Speaker 1: it for the rest of their lives. Sure, apparently there
Speaker 1: are a group of people that can develop it if
Speaker 1: your body goes through a certain type and a certain
Speaker 1: amount of trauma. Hm hmm.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this lady t boned his car and they basically
Speaker 1: had to peel the car off him. And yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was interesting. I know exactly what night it was
Speaker 1: because my mom was all dressed up. They were going
Speaker 1: to go out for Valentine's Day. That was twelve. Sorry'll
Speaker 1: tell you what day and what year. But because she
Speaker 1: looks at me and goes watch the kids. Right as
Speaker 1: soon as the hospital called, said he was in the
Speaker 1: hospital all right, Because I'm the oldest of ten kids
Speaker 1: at the time, there weren't ten of us. But yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: so I basically went and laid down in my parents' bed,
Speaker 1: and my mom woke me up when she got home
Speaker 1: and said to my bed in that way, if anyone
Speaker 1: came looking for mom, they'd find me. Anyway. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and then he had a hip surgery that went bad,
Speaker 1: and they the doctor, so they were replacing his hip,
Speaker 1: and when they were putting the ball or socket, which
Speaker 1: everyone goes on your leg bone back on, the way
Speaker 1: that they do that is they wedge it into your bone.
Speaker 1: And when the doctor wedged it in, he split the bone.
Speaker 1: And so my dad had nerve nerve damage in his
Speaker 1: left leg, and so he basically would half drag his
Speaker 1: left leg and so he just wasn't active because it hurt.
Speaker 1: And it also hurt and so.
Speaker 2: Anyway, yeah, yeah, I had a friend that had fiber
Speaker 2: mialgia from church, and the way she described it to
Speaker 2: us one time was, if you think about having a
Speaker 2: rubber band a sort of tied it on your finger,
Speaker 2: that pain is like that through your whole body and
Speaker 2: just never stops.
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, yeah it was. Yeah, he was in chronic pain.
Speaker 1: So anyway, it's much more common in women, apparently byber
Speaker 1: mil ja.
Speaker 2: But okay, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, so yeah, so I just twenty nineteen, I
Speaker 1: just decided. I was like, I'm not I'm not going
Speaker 1: to go through that and then, you know, go through
Speaker 1: all the health issues and I kind of let things
Speaker 1: go for a while, but I realized that I was
Speaker 1: I was heading down that road. So I shaped up
Speaker 1: earlier this year and I've been running and eat and
Speaker 1: right I've lost about fifteen pounds feeling pretty darn good.
Speaker 2: So yeah, anyway, yeah, I'm to the point now where
Speaker 2: if I don't work out, I feel like a slug.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I did my prossit probably what four or five times
Speaker 2: a week, and play basketball one day a week, and oh,
Speaker 2: there you go and do that stuff. I saw one
Speaker 2: of the funniest memes the other day on Instagram. It
Speaker 2: was some Crossfoait account. It shows this picture of us,
Speaker 2: just this big huge obe lady sitting there, and then
Speaker 2: the caption is what I feel like when I miss
Speaker 2: one day of workout.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: Here is like, oh my gosh, I missed today. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna gain. I'm gonna you know, no, it's okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I've been doing here, let
Speaker 1: me pull it up on my phone, because I've been
Speaker 1: doing a program called seventy five Hard. I've done it before,
Speaker 1: so you may have heard. Yeah, I remember you talking
Speaker 1: about it, and so you take a picture every day.
Speaker 1: I'll just hold my phone up to the camera and
Speaker 1: it scott anyway. That's why you see pictures of my belly.
Speaker 1: I'm here, but you can see where I'm at on
Speaker 1: this if it'll show.
Speaker 2: The numbers seventy two.
Speaker 1: Huh yeah, I'm on day seventy three. So I finish
Speaker 1: on Friday and then oh now my camera's out of focus.
Speaker 1: That's super fun. So yeah, so I've been doing that.
Speaker 1: And now when you work out twice a day and
Speaker 1: read a book every day and drink a gallon of
Speaker 1: water every day, and I've been feeling pretty good.
Speaker 2: So that's what I need to do. Get better at
Speaker 2: a springle I drink a good amount of water, not
Speaker 2: a gallon a day.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember reading an article going down another rabbit hole.
Speaker 2: I think it was on Hacker News or somewhere where
Speaker 2: a lady talked about how she had started drinking a
Speaker 2: gallon of water per day and and how you know,
Speaker 2: it took a while to get used to but now
Speaker 2: so used to it. And she uses like, you know,
Speaker 2: flavorings and stuff in water, which to me can make
Speaker 2: a big difference. But she said, just the benefits that
Speaker 2: she noticed in terms of flexibility, in terms of her skin,
Speaker 2: in terms of so many different things. It really made
Speaker 2: a big difference. And so yeah, I have my electrolyzed
Speaker 2: that make my water taste a little better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so seventy five hard you get quite a gallon.
Speaker 1: You can't add anything to the water. But yeah, so anyway,
Speaker 1: it's it's pretty good. Yeah, I've been losing weight. I've
Speaker 1: been feeling pretty good. My clothes fit different, so that's
Speaker 1: always a nice thing.
Speaker 2: Is when your pants aren't so tight, right, you don't
Speaker 2: have to go buy new pants.
Speaker 1: Well, my church pants, I basically I push I push
Speaker 1: all the loose fabric to the back and I have
Speaker 1: three belt loops that are all right next to each
Speaker 1: other on the back.
Speaker 2: So anyway, so in front of looks great. On the back, Hey,
Speaker 2: you got some little loose waisted Yeah.
Speaker 1: I needed to just go take them in, get it
Speaker 1: taken in because where I got my suit, because I
Speaker 1: just wear a suit for church, they do free alterations
Speaker 1: for life when you buy from them, so I just
Speaker 1: need to take it in and say, please don't fit anymore. Anyway,
Speaker 1: let's talk about JavaScript and market stuff here for a minute,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how far down the list we're
Speaker 1: going to get. I mean, one of the things that
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk through. And it sounds like you've
Speaker 1: experienced some stuff with this, and I definitely have. I've
Speaker 1: also been talking to people out there in the market,
Speaker 1: and it seems like there are a lot of folks
Speaker 1: that are looking for work right now, and the job
Speaker 1: market's a little bit weird. I think AI is kind
Speaker 1: of put some uncertainty out there. I don't know, what
Speaker 1: are you see in and then I can kind of
Speaker 1: talk about some of the people.
Speaker 2: I'm so I just started the job where I'm at
Speaker 2: in mid June, and I started where I'm at in March,
Speaker 2: so I had probably been looking for a year before
Speaker 2: I landed this one. And were you out of work
Speaker 2: before or no? No, no, no, no, I was never out
Speaker 2: of work. I was just wanting to get.
Speaker 1: At you situation. Gotcha? Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: I heard a statistic one time that said that something
Speaker 2: like sixty nine percent of people that change jobs do
Speaker 2: so because of their boss. And I followed that sixty
Speaker 2: nine percent. So anyway, I look for.
Speaker 1: You laugh because I've been there.
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: I've so been there where it's like, okay, I can't
Speaker 1: take any more of this, and yeah, if it's not
Speaker 1: my boss, it's because he tolerates something from somebody else.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well I've been let go. I've been you know
Speaker 2: when I hear about, you know, people getting laid off
Speaker 2: for bedroom employe or whatever I'm taking. You know, I've
Speaker 2: had den camp three times because of financial issues, you know,
Speaker 2: whether it's rounds of layoffs and entire office getting let go.
Speaker 2: That was me last type of stuff. Yeah, I've had
Speaker 2: that happen more time. You know, you just get up
Speaker 2: and go find something else. But anyway, so my experiences
Speaker 2: this time around was.
Speaker 1: It just sucks.
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, if it's just AI filtering
Speaker 2: things out. But I guess the thing that really bugged
Speaker 2: me was, you know, employers will talk about applicants who
Speaker 2: will you know, just not communicate that will go to you.
Speaker 2: And I had that case. There was probably twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: I want to say twenty twenty one. I was trying
Speaker 2: to hire a couple of Larevelle and View developers where
Speaker 2: I was at, and I give an example. We had
Speaker 2: this guy and this happened more than once, where we
Speaker 2: really liked him and we wanted to give him an offer,
Speaker 2: and we did continue upon references. And so this one
Speaker 2: particular guy we liked and he gave us some references,
Speaker 2: but they were it had been a few years since
Speaker 2: he had actually worked with these people and so and
Speaker 2: they were fine, you know, what they had to say
Speaker 2: was fine. And we said, well, okay, do you have
Speaker 2: something like from your last job or something more recent?
Speaker 1: Nothing.
Speaker 2: He completely ghosted us. My boss, myself, nobody can go
Speaker 2: with me to drop off phase of the earth, which
Speaker 2: told me maybe there's something more recent. He wanted to hide,
Speaker 2: and we had other people that you know, would just
Speaker 2: drop away so all that to say, come around this time.
Speaker 2: I'm on the other side of the of the situation
Speaker 2: where I'm the one that's deploying. And I had companies
Speaker 2: that would ghost me. Literally They would say, you know,
Speaker 2: so you always it seems like you always go through
Speaker 2: the screening interview with the HR type of person, right,
Speaker 2: and they're going to ask you some sort of general
Speaker 2: questions and then if you know that, if you answer
Speaker 2: their questions well enough, then you'll move on. They say, okay, y,
Speaker 2: that's great, Okay, We're going to schedule with tech person.
Speaker 2: And sometimes that would happen, you know. I had one
Speaker 2: particular one, probably one of the better situations I had,
Speaker 2: was a particular company and they were looking for a
Speaker 2: Laravel PHP type developer, and I went through like the
Speaker 2: second round with their senior, their manager tech engineering manager.
Speaker 2: I can't remember his exact position anyway, and we went
Speaker 2: through a lot of technical stuff and he was checking
Speaker 2: my knowledge on basic development principles and PHP and that
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, and iventually got the email says, I
Speaker 2: think we decided to move on. So I wrote him
Speaker 2: and I said, I said, hey, just had curiosity always
Speaker 2: looking for feedback. Was it, this and this, you know
Speaker 2: that wasn't able to answer, and he said he came
Speaker 2: back and says, hey, thanks for getting back to me.
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. I says, yeah, we're looking for some
Speaker 2: of that as more and more sort of larger knowledge
Speaker 2: and engineering principles. And there was a specific book that
Speaker 2: he referenced, classic development books that I went and got
Speaker 2: and I'm already forgetting design Patterns by the Gang of Four. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And I went and boughted after that, you know, to
Speaker 2: familiar eyes with myself. At the next time.
Speaker 1: He was great.
Speaker 2: But I had other people where they would go through
Speaker 2: the first interview, Yeah, we're gonna you know, interview, and
Speaker 2: we wanted to go onto the second interview, and that
Speaker 2: was it. Never heard from them again. And I would
Speaker 2: look out where they had posted the job and they
Speaker 2: still had it open, and just for grans, I would
Speaker 2: just for grans, I would apply again and never heard
Speaker 2: from anybody. That happened two or three times where they
Speaker 2: say one thing, but then they don't even bother to communicate. Hey, sorry,
Speaker 2: we decided to move on. We found a better applicant. Whatever,
Speaker 2: you know, that's fine, that happens. I've been on that side,
Speaker 2: I get it, but at least communicate, don't just ghost. Well,
Speaker 2: that happened to me. That happened to me more times
Speaker 2: than I wanted to count, where it's just they say
Speaker 2: one thing and then they just drop off and can't
Speaker 2: even have the courtesy to say, hey, yeah, we moved on.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then the best though was I interviewed with the
Speaker 2: company that was based here in the Portland area and
Speaker 2: it was a La Belle PHP and I think some
Speaker 2: jobs for I forget the details, but so I went
Speaker 2: through and interviewed with a technical person and all the
Speaker 2: feedback was great, yeah, you know you got this and
Speaker 2: this next, we need to do some interview with that
Speaker 2: and nothing. So like two or three weeks later, you know,
Speaker 2: I'll wait and wait and then I'll follow hey, just
Speaker 2: you know, checking up, see what's going on. You had
Speaker 2: indicated this, haven't heard anything. And he finally got back
Speaker 2: to me and was like, oh, yeah, we decided the
Speaker 2: jobs on hold. We're not going to hire for it
Speaker 2: money issues. So I don't remember what he said. I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, yeah, I get that. That's fine.
Speaker 2: So then a month later, two or three weeks later,
Speaker 2: I found a position. It was for a recruiter and
Speaker 2: you know head hunter type of guy recruiter, and he
Speaker 2: was hiring for this same position at the same company.
Speaker 2: And the listing was the way it was listening, didn't
Speaker 2: list the same company, but by reading it I could
Speaker 2: tell this sounded really familiar. So just for grins, I
Speaker 2: set up an appointment and I said, hey, see he
Speaker 2: tells me about it. And I said, you know, I
Speaker 2: just interviewed for them, and they told me that they
Speaker 2: weren't hiring for the position, that they put it on hold.
Speaker 2: He goes, huh, okay, well you know I just placed
Speaker 2: somebody there, so I'll you know, yeah, I'll see what
Speaker 2: I can find out and let you know, never heard
Speaker 2: from him again either.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, hum, that's interesting. It's just it's just
Speaker 2: irritating as heck. And then the job that I got
Speaker 2: now was through connections, through personal connections, right, And I
Speaker 2: didn't get the job just because the connection. I had
Speaker 2: to run the whole gamut of values and a project
Speaker 2: to do it. But it happened to be somebody that
Speaker 2: mutual connection does My parents actually had know this guy,
Speaker 2: and he said, hey, it's under web developers. Looking, he goes, uh, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: happen to send me his resume. So I did, and
Speaker 2: you know, I probably went through I calculated later like
Speaker 2: five different hours of interviews plus a demo, a small
Speaker 2: demo project, and I got it, you know, went through
Speaker 2: all the and I had to beat somebody else, and
Speaker 2: that's fine, but it was through somebody that I knew,
Speaker 2: just through getting through all the screening and and the
Speaker 2: you know, everything through the applications and then once I
Speaker 2: got in. And so the space I'm in right now
Speaker 2: is is networking, you know, basically internet type of networking.
Speaker 2: And it's I'm still drinking from the fire hose when
Speaker 2: it comes to networking and terminology and the stuff. This
Speaker 2: is crazy how much.
Speaker 1: We have to learn.
Speaker 2: But I'm making tools for like network engineers, is what
Speaker 2: it is. So it's really cool. And so we had
Speaker 2: to hire. We wanted a back in this world, the
Speaker 2: back of his pythons, the language, the preferred language for
Speaker 2: all of the things that we do dealing with networking,
Speaker 2: and so we had to hire a back end person.
Speaker 2: And I haven't been part of the process, but my boss,
Speaker 2: you know, he's obviously hiring for it. And he was
Speaker 2: telling me that when we would open up a position,
Speaker 2: he would just they had to turn it off after
Speaker 2: like a week and a half because they would just
Speaker 2: get drowned with applicants. But the issue was a lot
Speaker 2: of people just weren't qualified. He told me they had
Speaker 2: a couple of different interviews where it was a foreign
Speaker 2: national and he could barely speak English, and you know,
Speaker 2: it seemed like his Python, his coding skills were great,
Speaker 2: but he couldn't hint. You know, my boss said, one
Speaker 2: of the basic requirements for me to be able to
Speaker 2: understand to hire him is that I have to be
Speaker 2: able to understand him right, you know, and I couldn't
Speaker 2: even understand it, which is sort of important for communication.
Speaker 2: Even you know, when you're using Slack, you know, there's
Speaker 2: still a lot of verbal communication that we do in
Speaker 2: person and you know, over zoom meetings and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: And so we finally just hired a guy who's going
Speaker 2: to start next week. But it took months, and I
Speaker 2: had even had somebody I knew that had a lot
Speaker 2: of IT skills and you know, submitted him and they
Speaker 2: reviewed him, but you know, he didn't have that really
Speaker 2: hit a lot of the requisite background that we needed,
Speaker 2: but but yeah, I was, you just get flooded with
Speaker 2: so much stuff, but a lot of it you could
Speaker 2: tell his AI. You'll hear jokes about how you know,
Speaker 2: resumes that you submit you can tell that they've hit
Speaker 2: all the AI keywords, and you know. Some of the
Speaker 2: best excuses I've heard, and I don't remember if it
Speaker 2: was one that we had. I heard Adam Argyle talking
Speaker 2: from who used to be with Google. Huh and now
Speaker 2: he's one of the hosts on a Whiskey and Web
Speaker 2: and whatnot podcast that I'd like to listen to, and
Speaker 2: he talks about, here's one of the most skilled guys
Speaker 2: out there with CSS. I've heard him on multiple different places,
Speaker 2: and he knows his stuff. It took him months, and
Speaker 2: he was He talked a lot about this process and
Speaker 2: about how frustrating it was for him too, going through
Speaker 2: a lot of the same stuff, you know, five levels
Speaker 2: of interviews because the seniors can't trust their you know,
Speaker 2: managers to actually make a good decision. They have to
Speaker 2: review it to you know type of stuff. But just
Speaker 2: dealing with all the AI stuff, and I think one
Speaker 2: of the things we heard was like examples I saw was,
Speaker 2: you know, I've been working with tailwind since twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2: Well Tailwind didn't exist in twenty fourteen, So it's sort
Speaker 2: of hard. How do you work with something that didn't
Speaker 2: exist at that one You know, that tells you, you
Speaker 2: know that somebody's you know, just reading a job description
Speaker 2: and is saying, okay, give me a cover let for this,
Speaker 2: and it's saying as typical AI. If it doesn't have it,
Speaker 2: it makes it up. And so you get stuff like
Speaker 2: this saying you got skills for something that never existed
Speaker 2: in you know, at that particular point in time, or
Speaker 2: has any I've been working with so and so framework
Speaker 2: for ten years, Well it's only existed for five, yeah
Speaker 2: you know so. But yeah, it's it's just brutal. It's
Speaker 2: just brutal wading through and you know, getting people to
Speaker 2: communicate and and.
Speaker 1: To be fair.
Speaker 2: On the other side of things, they're getting flooded, you know,
Speaker 2: they've got so much stuff to wade through and trying
Speaker 2: to determine what's legit, yeah, versus what's not legit is tough.
Speaker 2: So it's it sucks on both sides, It really doesn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's tricky. It's interesting because on the other end,
Speaker 1: I just keep thinking of the situation. So back in
Speaker 1: like twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, I think it was a
Speaker 1: Rails comp. DHH got up and he said that he
Speaker 1: had gotten or went on I think it went on
Speaker 1: on Twitter and then people were talking about it Rails comp.
Speaker 1: But he got contacted because by a recruiter that said,
Speaker 1: you're the only person that we can find that has
Speaker 1: ten years of experience with Rails. And the thing that
Speaker 1: was funny was that he was the only person in
Speaker 1: the world who had ten years of experience with Rails
Speaker 1: because it had been released nine years ago, right, so
Speaker 1: he you know, he'd been working on it privately at
Speaker 1: base camp.
Speaker 2: Right they and they wanted ten years with l Yeah,
Speaker 2: maybe they need to look at their requirements.
Speaker 1: Right, It was pretty funny. Yeah, I've seen all kinds
Speaker 1: of stuff, and I think more and more people are
Speaker 1: going to be looking for kind of the real genuine thing.
Speaker 1: And so what you're talking about, I think AI is helpful.
Speaker 1: Like if you hand at your resume and say, hey,
Speaker 1: help me polish this, make suggestions things like that. But
Speaker 1: I've done that with my resume when I was looking
Speaker 1: last year or I guess it was early this year,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it would, it would. It would suggest you
Speaker 1: should put things like this on here, And I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I haven't done any of those things, right, Like
Speaker 1: I have to. I have to be able to go
Speaker 1: into an interview and talk about when I did these
Speaker 1: things right, right, and and I would really prefer not
Speaker 1: to lie to people when I apply for jobs.
Speaker 2: So anyway, yeah, especially if they come back later and
Speaker 2: find out you lie.
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, there's just there's no there's no good
Speaker 1: scenario there. Your best case scenario is they never find out.
Speaker 1: But why run Well but the other thing is is
Speaker 1: that I I don't know, I would know and it
Speaker 1: would bother me. So anyway, Yeah, but I can also see, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, is there a better way to word this.
Speaker 1: I would like this to you know, have more action
Speaker 1: or active oriented stuff as opposed to you know, eliminate
Speaker 1: passive voice in my resume kind of thing. You know.
Speaker 1: So all that stuff it definitely helped, you know, And
Speaker 1: some of the suggestions, there were a handful of them
Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, yeah, I did that, and
Speaker 1: that is something that helps, right. So anyway, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: one thing that I've been hearing from people because my well,
Speaker 1: let me back up. So you talked about kind of
Speaker 1: the experience getting hired and hiring. They haven't been pulling
Speaker 1: me in on interviews lately at Price Picks, and mostly
Speaker 1: it's because they're interviewing front end folks and I just
Speaker 1: I don't have enough react native experience to really go
Speaker 1: deep with anybody. But yeah, you know, I applied for
Speaker 1: a job and then the person who had listed the
Speaker 1: job came back to me and said, I'm a recruiter
Speaker 1: and this is Price Picks. Is that okay? And I
Speaker 1: said yeah, And so then I went through the process.
Speaker 1: So I applied for a company that I had never
Speaker 1: heard before, and it turned out it was a company
Speaker 1: I had heard of before. So it just kind of
Speaker 1: worked out that way. And yeah, I did the first
Speaker 1: interview and it was just kind of a with one
Speaker 1: of the directors of the company, h you know, director
Speaker 1: of engineering level folks. They're a handful of them at
Speaker 1: Price Picks, and so yeah, made sure I wasn't a
Speaker 1: psychopath and somebody they liked to work with, and you know,
Speaker 1: then did the technical interview and they gave me a
Speaker 1: bunch of coding exercises on what what's that there's a
Speaker 1: website that has a bunch of them on there.
Speaker 2: There's a few different ones. What's the I can't even
Speaker 2: think of the main ones and people are probably screaming
Speaker 2: at us, going, oh, this is so obvious. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: can't remember the one that we used to use. I
Speaker 2: try to block it out. Really, there's the one that
Speaker 2: there's one really popular. I think I think it was
Speaker 2: lead Code Lead Code. Yeah, that's it, and we can
Speaker 2: literally they will, you can go practice for it. I
Speaker 2: mean that stuffs pretty much dead now well with AI
Speaker 2: because you can just get a question and run through
Speaker 2: AI and you know, yeah, I heard stories that I
Speaker 2: think my boss was telling me you said they him
Speaker 2: or something. I don't remember where I heard the story,
Speaker 2: but literally they had been in an interview where you
Speaker 2: could tell that the person was typing stuff into AI
Speaker 2: during the interview and getting answers out.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh, that's that's pretty Yeah,
Speaker 2: got say it's fun, you know. I tried to get
Speaker 2: away with something like that. Yeah, So I had done.
Speaker 1: I had applied to a contract because I was in
Speaker 1: a nightmare contract for the first three months of this year,
Speaker 1: and so I was looking at another contract, and they
Speaker 1: gave me a leak code to solve, and I solved it.
Speaker 1: I solved it with like I I had a half
Speaker 1: hour and I saw it twenty minutes. And anyway, it
Speaker 1: was funny because when I had to do the eleak
Speaker 1: code for Price Picks, they gave me like five of
Speaker 1: them to solve, and one of them was the one
Speaker 1: that I had done like a week before, and so
Speaker 1: and I told him that too. I was like, look,
Speaker 1: I was like, this one's gonna look like I saw
Speaker 1: it in ten minutes. And the reason is is because
Speaker 1: I remember what I did on the other one, and
Speaker 1: so I just did it again and made it a
Speaker 1: little cleaner.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's funny. When we were doing.
Speaker 2: Gosh, I wish I could remember what platform we use.
Speaker 2: But it was cool because you could sort of pick
Speaker 2: and choose what questions you wanted to give. You know,
Speaker 2: there'sp there's JavaScript or sequel or you know whatever, a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of different categories. And one of the things
Speaker 2: that you could tell was how long it took him
Speaker 2: to do a question. And so we're looking at one
Speaker 2: the results from one test that this guy had done
Speaker 2: and one of them and my boss was really picky.
Speaker 2: I hadn't noticed this so much, but he would look
Speaker 2: at time. He goes, Man, this guy got this one
Speaker 2: real quick. And so he goes through and looks and
Speaker 2: starts do some searching, and sure enough finds a GitHub
Speaker 2: repo with answers to these specific questions. So basically, this
Speaker 2: guy had found one out copy paste says that, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm good, you know, instead of at least making an
Speaker 2: effort to you know, type it in and you know,
Speaker 2: make it look like you'd actually taken some time and
Speaker 2: doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I had one.
Speaker 2: I had one of the one of the positions that
Speaker 2: I interviewed for, I had to do a coding test
Speaker 2: and it was there was some JavaScript stuff and there
Speaker 2: was some sequel And I've lived in SQL for years,
Speaker 2: you know, doing quers and stuff like that, but it
Speaker 2: was in their UI and I had no, you know,
Speaker 2: nothing to play with. I had none of my usual
Speaker 2: tools that I can use to debug something and step
Speaker 2: through something or even just run some basic queries. You
Speaker 2: just basically had to generate a query on the fly
Speaker 2: and get it right. And I totally bombed them on
Speaker 2: stuff that if I had my own tools and my
Speaker 2: own you know, ways of doing things I probably could
Speaker 2: have done pretty easily, you know, even in a browser.
Speaker 2: And that was really frustrating. And they never even got
Speaker 2: I submitted the test. I never even heard yeah you
Speaker 2: didn't pass the test. No communication, no nothing. That was
Speaker 2: what was really frustrating about it. But for the job
Speaker 2: that I I'm at now, they had a little project,
Speaker 2: and what was cool about it was it wasn't just
Speaker 2: some sort of make work type of thing, you know,
Speaker 2: not a real situation. They said, here is you know,
Speaker 2: if you try to use this carbon library from IBM,
Speaker 2: which is absolutely atrocious, I would never use it, you
Speaker 2: know if you paid me money to use it as awful.
Speaker 2: I ended up using Tailwind with it, and it was
Speaker 2: using a little library called Codemere, which we use on
Speaker 2: our current side it and uh, you know, like a
Speaker 2: Yama editor type of thing anyway, and you know, create
Speaker 2: a project that does this in this and generates file
Speaker 2: in such such a format and saves it. And so
Speaker 2: it was pretty It turned out I was overthinking, was
Speaker 2: overthinking and trying to get the specific font colors and
Speaker 2: spend more time on that than the rest of the project,
Speaker 2: which I could have done in about you know, four hours.
Speaker 2: But that was what was cool about it is I
Speaker 2: did my project, you know, pushed it up to get
Speaker 2: they could all look at it. And then in my interview,
Speaker 2: I just stepped went through and explained this is what
Speaker 2: I did, and this is how I did it and
Speaker 2: why I did it, and that great stuff. And it
Speaker 2: worked great to me.
Speaker 1: That was great. You know.
Speaker 2: It wasn't like, you know, a huge LNG project. It
Speaker 2: was a real project based on real life situation. And
Speaker 2: funny enough, I'm to the point now I'm actually working
Speaker 2: with that exact same thing that I did in my
Speaker 2: test project right now and what I'm working on.
Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah, it's it's funny how those kind of come around.
Speaker 1: I like the idea of doing something that's more real world,
Speaker 1: oh absolutely, you know, absolutely and make work. You know.
Speaker 2: Imaginary projects are like, you know, give me a class
Speaker 2: that generates what is something you pass it in. It's
Speaker 2: that you have to return a fruit. But your classes
Speaker 2: have to you know, you got to have a base
Speaker 2: class and then your different fruit types. Really where is
Speaker 2: this real world?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: But you got an animal and needed I have this
Speaker 2: one needs to growl and this one needs to bark.
Speaker 2: And this one needs to not have a tail and okay,
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So anyway, kind of rolling back to back to
Speaker 1: my hiring process, Yeah, I did that, and then I
Speaker 1: went through the technical interview. The recruiter was involved the
Speaker 1: whole time, and so he had all my results from
Speaker 1: my coding exercises, which incidentally, he was like, they looked
Speaker 1: at your coding exercises and you scored higher on that
Speaker 1: than they've ever seen. But I've been doing Rube forever.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so was your recruiter like a recruiter that
Speaker 2: worked for the company or like a third.
Speaker 1: He was a third party recruiter that they had hired
Speaker 1: and he just shepherded people through. But yeah, it was
Speaker 1: it was pretty seamless process. After that, I want to
Speaker 1: spin a little bit toward where I'm talking to folks
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm talking to some senior folks who are
Speaker 1: having trouble finding work, like finding jobs, and then I'm
Speaker 1: running across like junior people. It sounds like it's just
Speaker 1: impossible to find a job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard that too, and I think you and
Speaker 2: I and Dan might have talked about this a couple
Speaker 2: episodes ago when we were talking and I you know,
Speaker 2: I haven't talked to you know, people myself but who
Speaker 2: have been doing this. But what I'm what I read
Speaker 2: in multiple places is that people aren't hiring junior so much.
Speaker 2: You know, they use They figure the AI can can
Speaker 2: do a lot of that stuff, so they only want
Speaker 2: to senior people. So of course, what's the classic twenty
Speaker 2: catch twenty two? How do you get seen people if
Speaker 2: they have in the first place, Right, It's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: automatically got to go to a boot camp and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden you're an expert and then you can
Speaker 2: get hired. It makes no sense. So you know, as
Speaker 2: an interview I read heard with the Coinbase CTO, one
Speaker 2: of the c suitet people, and they were talking about
Speaker 2: how they use AI for up to thirty to forty
Speaker 2: percent of their code and that includes like review processes
Speaker 2: and deployments and stuff like that. So it's it's quite
Speaker 2: an interesting interview to listen to. But but yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's that's huge. That's a lot of especially for something
Speaker 2: of that scale, that seems like a lot of code
Speaker 2: to be trusting your.
Speaker 1: To AI. Yeah, it's I don't know, I kind of
Speaker 1: see it cut in both ways. I think it's short
Speaker 1: sighted to hand off so much stuff to AI. I
Speaker 1: think it's also short sighted not to be investing in
Speaker 1: people because you're going to need them. That said, so
Speaker 1: here here's the issue that I run into, and I'll
Speaker 1: probably piss some people off with my opinions on some
Speaker 1: of this stuff. So I was at a conference a
Speaker 1: few weeks ago and there were a couple of talks
Speaker 1: on these topics, and one of the talks they were
Speaker 1: going talking about, you know, well we have immense privilege
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah blah blah. And my deal is
Speaker 1: is you you people who are talking about this have
Speaker 1: never run a freaking business, right, You have no idea
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, you know. It's It's one thing
Speaker 1: if you know I have some margin and I'm willing
Speaker 1: to train people, right. It's another thing if I'm in
Speaker 1: a small, scrappy business and I'm just trying to eke
Speaker 1: out the next few thousand dollars a month so that
Speaker 1: I can figure out who to hire next, right, and
Speaker 1: then whoever I hire next, I need to get the
Speaker 1: biggest bang for my buck out of them. And so
Speaker 1: that may be a junior, right, if it's somebody in
Speaker 1: my position and I'm building a like a software as
Speaker 1: a service or something like that. I could see hiring
Speaker 1: a junior developer, teaching them how to use the AI
Speaker 1: tools and saying, okay, you know, if you if you're
Speaker 1: not sure, ask me, right, and so this is this
Speaker 1: is how far I trust the AI. So this is
Speaker 1: about how far I expect you to do it, and
Speaker 1: then yeah, I'll mentor you through the rest of it. Right,
Speaker 1: And I can save myself some money and have a
Speaker 1: developer building features for me, or I may want to
Speaker 1: go just hire somebody that's as high up in the
Speaker 1: game as I can afford and do that right. And
Speaker 1: I think I think the talking about privilege or you
Speaker 1: know this that or the other, any other kind of
Speaker 1: concern is just stupid at that point because you're small
Speaker 1: and you're just trying to get crap done. That the
Speaker 1: bigger companies, I think they're insane if they're not investing
Speaker 1: in their pipeline to bring people up, because at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, what we're looking at is, yeah,
Speaker 1: if nobody's hiring juniors, then the only people who are
Speaker 1: going to have mid level people to hire are going
Speaker 1: to be the people who are training them as juniors.
Speaker 1: And then the other thing is is that a lot
Speaker 1: of these companies have to change the way they think
Speaker 1: about this stuff because what happens is they hire them
Speaker 1: is juniors, and they pay them as juniors for a
Speaker 1: few years, and then they don't give them a raise
Speaker 1: and a promotion and a reason to stick around, and
Speaker 1: then they lose them, and then they complain that they
Speaker 1: lost them. And it's like, this isn't rocket science. If
Speaker 1: you give them a great place to work and you
Speaker 1: pay them what they're worth, they'll stay. And so I
Speaker 1: think there's some adjustment that's going to have to be
Speaker 1: made there because the mindset on a lot of this
Speaker 1: stuff is insane. But I just I don't know that
Speaker 1: they're going to hire as many people because yeah, a
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that I would hire a junior
Speaker 1: developer for, I can get the AI to do it.
Speaker 1: And if I'm if I'm solopreneuring my own software as
Speaker 1: the service and the marginal cost of my time and
Speaker 1: money leads me toward, Hey, I'm gonna have the AI
Speaker 1: do a lot of this basic stuff. You know, I
Speaker 1: save myself a whole bunch of time and effort. Then
Speaker 1: I'm going to do it, and it's anyway, it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of an interesting spot. But the other thing is
Speaker 1: is a lot of the boot camps are shutting down.
Speaker 1: Like I've talked to a whole bunch of people that
Speaker 1: run boot camps, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was that seemed like a sort of a bubble,
Speaker 2: bubble that was waiting to pop, you know, because it
Speaker 2: used to be you know, there was a hey day.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you can remember this, and I've heard this
Speaker 2: multiple places, you know, was you know, boot camp, go
Speaker 2: to a boot can't come out and be expecting to
Speaker 2: make six figures right out of the gate, you know,
Speaker 2: because the man was there and it's over hiring, and
Speaker 2: well that bubble is obviously.
Speaker 1: Popped and they've laid off a bunch.
Speaker 2: You know, it's basic, right, it's basic economics, right, you know,
Speaker 2: the demand was there for a while and then you've
Speaker 2: got over some demand decreases. But yeah, right, so you
Speaker 2: know you need you need people that actually can do it,
Speaker 2: you know, can do the work. And so I mean
Speaker 2: just the number of tech jobs periods has dropped, so
Speaker 2: you don't have quite the demand for for getting as
Speaker 2: many developers out there. And so yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 2: so logical, Yeah, what you expect to happen, Yeah, based
Speaker 2: on the decrease in demand.
Speaker 1: But the the thing is is that software isn't like
Speaker 1: a lot of other products in the sense that you know,
Speaker 1: like if I go buy a whole bunch. We were
Speaker 1: talking about like these energy drinks before the show, right,
Speaker 1: and you know, I've got like three cases of energy
Speaker 1: drinks because they were on sale, right, and so I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm buying a ton of Net of the
Speaker 1: Gods baby, right, Yeah, I got I've got these form
Speaker 1: energy drinks and I got plus water. I got them
Speaker 1: from seven to eleven right when they were a bucketpiece
Speaker 1: during their one dollar promotion. Part of it I did
Speaker 1: also because I really like Andy Frizella, and he was saying,
Speaker 1: we're doing the one dollar deal. Go, you know, basically
Speaker 1: run them out of our product, right, show them that
Speaker 1: people really want this stuff. And you know, he's he's
Speaker 1: his podcast. I feel like I've learned a lot from
Speaker 1: and so it's like, oh, I can go spend thirty
Speaker 1: or forty bucks and you know, do him a solid.
Speaker 1: I get an energy drink I like, and so it
Speaker 1: was a win win. But anyway, the difference is is
Speaker 1: that once I have so many energy drinks, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to need I'm not going to need more for
Speaker 1: a while, right, I can only consume it so fast.
Speaker 1: Software is different because there's always more stuff that I
Speaker 1: can do, right, whether it's making it faster, making it
Speaker 1: run better, making it cleaner, adding more features and so.
Speaker 1: On the one hand, yeah, right, there there was the
Speaker 1: demand was high, and a lot of it had to
Speaker 1: do with the economy. Right. The economy was pretty good
Speaker 1: under Trump until COVID, and then it slowed down a
Speaker 1: whole bunch. I think that hurt him in the election
Speaker 1: and was part of the reason he didn't get elected.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into all the politics of
Speaker 1: it because that will piss people off for no reason.
Speaker 1: But you know, the economy wasn't as good under Biden,
Speaker 1: and a lot of stuff slowed down, and so you
Speaker 1: know it's like, hey, look, I can keep going on
Speaker 1: what I have and not invest so much in the
Speaker 1: R and D side of development and still keep my
Speaker 1: doors open and my customer's happy, and wait for the
Speaker 1: economy to bump back up so that I can invest
Speaker 1: more into kind of the speculative stuff later and so
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the reason why the amendment
Speaker 1: down too. And then the other thing is is that
Speaker 1: in the Trump tax cuts. Right here, I'm going to
Speaker 1: smack both sides. In the Trump tax cuts, there was
Speaker 1: a provision that changed in the tax law where before
Speaker 1: you could write off all of your R and D
Speaker 1: costs in the year that you spent it. And so
Speaker 1: if I hired Steve Edwards and I said, Steve, I
Speaker 1: want you to develop these six new features for me,
Speaker 1: and we're going to add them to the application, then
Speaker 1: I could write that off as an R and D
Speaker 1: expense this year, right or next year when I filed
Speaker 1: my taxes right as an R and D expense, And
Speaker 1: they changed that, and they changed it so that you
Speaker 1: could only write off twenty percent per year, right, So
Speaker 1: now I have to amortize it over five years. And
Speaker 1: so all of a sudden, the tax incentives for me
Speaker 1: to do this work aren't nearly as good, and I
Speaker 1: have to ration the tax break that I'm getting over
Speaker 1: five years, and so I'm not as keen to invest
Speaker 1: that money now into the R and D as I
Speaker 1: was before. And I don't know, I think that affects
Speaker 1: the bigger companies a lot more in the smaller companies.
Speaker 1: The smaller companies are just going to pay for what
Speaker 1: they need period the end. But the bigger companies, you know,
Speaker 1: the fortune five hundred companies, the companies with you know,
Speaker 1: five hundred plus employees, where it's it's more than just
Speaker 1: a tiny line item. You know, eighty percent of that
Speaker 1: tax break went away. You know, yeah, I'll get twenty
Speaker 1: another twenty percent of it next year. But I think
Speaker 1: that affected things too. And then yeah, that the other
Speaker 1: thing is is that I think there were enough senior
Speaker 1: developers to cover a lot of the work, and so
Speaker 1: hiring junior developers just got harder. And with the economy
Speaker 1: softening and salary softening, you could hire more developer for
Speaker 1: less money, right because if you're out of work and
Speaker 1: you're out of work for six months, you know what
Speaker 1: you're worth, but you may just take what you can get.
Speaker 1: So I think there are a lot of things that
Speaker 1: go into this outside of just supply and demand, because
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, more developers just means
Speaker 1: more stuff getting done. So unless you just don't have
Speaker 1: stuff for people to do, right, well, even that's an
Speaker 1: ify statement. You know, there's the whole issue of how
Speaker 1: good your developers are.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, adding throwing developers at a project
Speaker 2: doesn't always make it go bettermental Yeah, that's a whole
Speaker 2: topic for a different complete episode.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my point is is that there's economics that
Speaker 1: come into play. There is the supply and demand issue.
Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. There's the skill level
Speaker 1: of people. There's what people are willing to accept because
Speaker 1: job market isn't as good anyway. There's a lot there, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, any any you know, my degree was economics in college,
Speaker 2: and I say this, you know, way back a while
Speaker 2: and spent a lot of times that I studied it.
Speaker 2: But I remember a lot of the basics. And if
Speaker 2: you think about you know, the dot com bust, you know,
Speaker 2: late nineties, early two thousand, uh, this is sort of
Speaker 2: the same thing where everybody jumps in. You got a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of supply, right, and a lot of stuff
Speaker 2: just doesn't belong. Yeah, you know, shouldn't be there. You
Speaker 2: had how many thinking back to the dot com era,
Speaker 2: of how many different websites came up and they'd get
Speaker 2: a bunch of VC money or something like that. No
Speaker 2: business plans like.
Speaker 1: Oh this is dot com.
Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, it's a website. Let's do it, because that's
Speaker 2: the way to get round.
Speaker 1: My point is is that it's not because we had
Speaker 1: too much internet or too much software. My My point
Speaker 1: is is that eventually people figured out that they weren't
Speaker 1: getting the ROI and they stopped or right. The other
Speaker 1: part of it was was that the economy would slow down,
Speaker 1: because it does that periodically, and then people start looking
Speaker 1: at Okay, well what do I actually need and then
Speaker 1: they cut the rest. But I think it's driven more
Speaker 1: by what what I what I can pay for, as
Speaker 1: opposed to I have too much software development going on,
Speaker 1: or I have too many things here in my warehouse.
Speaker 2: Right, so right, yeah, I mean, you know, going back
Speaker 2: to the boot camps, what I was saying, you know,
Speaker 2: there was too much there's you know, it's just you know,
Speaker 2: get him out the door, get him at the door.
Speaker 2: Whether or not they're really good for me is to
Speaker 2: be seen. And then you start to realize, okay, there's
Speaker 2: no room for all this, or we actually need qualified people,
Speaker 2: and so you know there's a slow down. All the
Speaker 2: fat gets trimmed and yep, you know that's how it works.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that was really I think that
Speaker 1: was more of a supply and demand issue just that
Speaker 1: not necessarily on the why people are or aren't hiring
Speaker 1: boot camp grads, but on the other end, that's why
Speaker 1: the boot camps is because there wasn't enough demand to
Speaker 1: soak up all the supply yep, And so people were
Speaker 1: graduating from boot camps. And then word kind of started
Speaker 1: to get around, Hey, you go through the boot camp,
Speaker 1: you spend twelve grand and you still don't have a job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, those those weren't cheap. I remember I
Speaker 2: looked years ago. I was looking into one. It was
Speaker 2: a boot camp that would have been I think it
Speaker 2: was on Microsoft Development stuff if I remember it. And
Speaker 2: I was seriously consider it because I was looking at,
Speaker 2: you know, just to educate myself, get something maybe more
Speaker 2: formal and just self education. But I was like blown
Speaker 2: away by how much it would cost, how much time
Speaker 2: it would take, because like, yeah, I can't take time
Speaker 2: off from an actual job and do this full time
Speaker 2: and got to support a family.
Speaker 1: You know. So yeah, when my oldest was in high school,
Speaker 1: I was looking at possibly because he was like, I
Speaker 1: want to be video game developer, blah blah blah, blah,
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, maybe I'll just put you
Speaker 1: through a programming boot camp, even if it's not game development, right,
Speaker 1: maybe it's React or something. Right, you can get enough
Speaker 1: programming experience to where then you can say, Okay, now
Speaker 1: I'm going to take the skills that I have in
Speaker 1: this area and I'm going to apply a lot of
Speaker 1: them over here to game development. But I mean the
Speaker 1: costs and everything, we're just you know, yeah, a lot
Speaker 1: of money. But on the other end, I'm also and
Speaker 1: I've talked to a whole bunch of people that are
Speaker 1: now not convinced that college is necessarily the way to
Speaker 1: go either. And so I don't know for.
Speaker 2: Web development, I mean web development or just development in general.
Speaker 1: Well not just development, but a lot of other fields too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the computer science stuff.
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people who can't.
Speaker 2: But well, even then, a lot of the stuff you
Speaker 2: studying there is an applicable, you know, to day to
Speaker 2: day web development. It's a lot of old schools stuff.
Speaker 2: And you know, I know, so the environment I work
Speaker 2: in is is networking, you know, internet networking type of stuff,
Speaker 2: and we deal a lot with the university community and
Speaker 2: of a number of our employees have come from universities
Speaker 2: and they went through CIS degrees, but a lot of
Speaker 2: what they teach their is applicable to what they're doing
Speaker 2: in terms of networking hardware and software and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Right, And you know a lot of your performance OfTI
Speaker 1: and algorithms and that all plays in space.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but a lot of that doesn't necessarily play in
Speaker 2: in you know, at least in the web dev world.
Speaker 2: And and so that's why you know it doesn't you know,
Speaker 2: it used to be you went to college just to
Speaker 2: say I got to college degree. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: you want your college to be somewhat you know, give
Speaker 2: you tools to actually get a job and performing, you know,
Speaker 2: in the industry.
Speaker 1: That's why you're going.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean there's there's a number of I mean,
Speaker 2: I can think off the top of my head, a
Speaker 2: number of you know, web developers for developers that never
Speaker 2: had any type of college to agree with that, But
Speaker 2: they're very good at what they did, and you know,
Speaker 2: like me, they're self taught. You know, they learned on
Speaker 2: their own just by doing and doing projects and working
Speaker 2: and being a junior for a while, right and working
Speaker 2: up to you got the experience to be a senior.
Speaker 1: Well, I have a degree in computer engineering, and in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, I still consider myself self taught.
Speaker 1: I mean, I graduated, I got a job working, and
Speaker 1: I wound up running the tech support team at the
Speaker 1: company I was working at the startup, and then I
Speaker 1: just kind of picked up some other stuff and was
Speaker 1: scrappy working on it in rails, and that's how I
Speaker 1: got started. And so you know, I kind of skunk
Speaker 1: works my way into into rails and into programming, even
Speaker 1: though I had learned a lot of programming stuff and
Speaker 1: taking classes at the university. I don't think you really
Speaker 1: get a feel for what software development really looks and
Speaker 1: feels like until you get out there in the real
Speaker 1: world world, and then you're going, yep, oh, these are
Speaker 1: the things I care about, These are the things that matter,
Speaker 1: These are the things that are going to move the needle,
Speaker 1: and you know, and so then you wind up, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you wind up self teaching anyway to a certain level.
Speaker 1: Everybody does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, there's I mean, and that's true with
Speaker 2: any industry or any topic. You know, you can learn
Speaker 2: about it and do test projects and stuff like that
Speaker 2: in school, but once you it's not until you get
Speaker 2: in the real world and realize that. You know, there's
Speaker 2: so many different things to work with with any type
Speaker 2: of software platform, whether you're an agency who's creating, you know,
Speaker 2: websites for customers, or if you're on the product side,
Speaker 2: where you have a product that you've built and you
Speaker 2: maintain and customers pay you to use. There's so much
Speaker 2: stuff that, whether it's project management stuff, whether it's stay
Speaker 2: to day infrastructure stuff, that you're just not going to
Speaker 2: see in an educational environment unless you get somebody maybe
Speaker 2: who's been out in the real world and done this
Speaker 2: stuff and then comes back in and teaches and says,
Speaker 2: he this is what it's really like. Those are the
Speaker 2: best teachers.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all right.
Speaker 2: I take that back to some of the best.
Speaker 1: I had a professor at I had a couple of
Speaker 1: professors at BYU that were they were those guys, right,
Speaker 1: And so one of them had written basically a variant
Speaker 1: of DOS called p DOS because his name was Paul.
Speaker 1: It was actually my neighbor growing up too. He was
Speaker 1: my bishop and my lds ward at church. P Dos
Speaker 1: because his name was Paul. And then one of the
Speaker 1: other guys and he was the one that taught us about,
Speaker 1: you know, here's how development teams work and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: because he'd worked in the industry too, and so he
Speaker 1: had a class that was basically, hey, here's your reality check, right,
Speaker 1: here's here's how this stuff actually works. P dos.
Speaker 2: It reminds me of Tanner Lindley and tan say, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, we just talked to him a few weeks ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, it's it's it's interesting stuff for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't I know that you pick a lot of
Speaker 1: that up as you go. Anyway, it's been about an hour.
Speaker 1: It's funny because we were going to talk about a
Speaker 1: couple of topics and we just talked about this one.
Speaker 1: But I'm hoping that this kind of gives some people
Speaker 1: some ideas. I don't know if you have any actionable
Speaker 1: stuff you want to give people on this in terms
Speaker 1: in terms of following at finding a job or hiring
Speaker 1: or anything like that.
Speaker 2: You know, the one thing I always hear, and this
Speaker 2: is probably a little more prevalent in the design world
Speaker 2: than it is the coding world, being able to show
Speaker 2: something you've actually done versus saying what you can do.
Speaker 2: You know, for a design person, front end, you know
Speaker 2: them er whatever term you want to use, the ones
Speaker 2: that make it look really good. I'm a portfolio, and
Speaker 2: a really good portfolio is probably something you want to have,
Speaker 2: you know. Examples, when I was going through my development interviews,
Speaker 2: I had very specific projects that I could talk about,
Speaker 2: things that I had done, whether it was and some
Speaker 2: of them were ones where I could straight that the
Speaker 2: software I had generated had saved incredible amounts of time
Speaker 2: for the end users, you know, because that's what they
Speaker 2: end up They want to be more efficient. That's the
Speaker 2: whole point of having a lot of the tools that
Speaker 2: I have anyways to be able to do your job
Speaker 2: more efficiently. And so I had projects where I could say,
Speaker 2: for instance, doing estimation for building certain types of industrial projects,
Speaker 2: I had taken what I had done had helped a
Speaker 2: company go from a three day estimation with crazy Excel
Speaker 2: spreadsheets to three hours right, or an application I used
Speaker 2: created with view and in nursery and Larravel helped a
Speaker 2: nonprofit organization go from literally multiple volunteers manual work in
Speaker 2: terms of managing membership to being almost completely automated and
Speaker 2: saving just hundreds of hours of volunteer time. So the
Speaker 2: point of what I'm saying is just being able to demonstrate, yes,
Speaker 2: using these tools, this is what I have done, and
Speaker 2: this is how effective it's been in and that because
Speaker 2: what you want to convey to them, you know, and
Speaker 2: adders that I always use is that I want to
Speaker 2: make my job is to make my boss's job easier. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, they don't have to worry about me. They
Speaker 2: know that I can jump in and do the job
Speaker 2: and get it done right, and so I want to demonstrate.
Speaker 2: And this is the same in the fire service as well.
Speaker 2: You know, you want to demonstrate that you can come
Speaker 2: in and fit in and jump in and do the
Speaker 2: job and you can rely on to do it. So
Speaker 2: that's probably the best advice you know that that I
Speaker 2: can I would give to somebody who's who's job hunting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree a lot of that. You know, you're
Speaker 1: talking about what you've actually done. If if you don't
Speaker 1: have that kind of work experience, then start a side
Speaker 1: project and go work on that. Yep, exactly, And I
Speaker 1: highly highly recommend that. The other thing that I recommend
Speaker 1: is that you know, go out into the community, you know,
Speaker 1: local meetups, find a conference to attend something like that,
Speaker 1: and just you know, stay up breast of what people
Speaker 1: are working on learning putting out there so that you
Speaker 1: know the kinds of things that you maybe need to demonstrate,
Speaker 1: so that you are working on things that are relevant
Speaker 1: to what people are doing.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, anybody can talk about what you could do
Speaker 2: being able to talk about this is what I did do.
Speaker 2: Is it's going to win every time?
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well, let's go ahead and do picks
Speaker 1: and then wrap up. Do you want to go first?
Speaker 2: Sure, So before I get to the high point of
Speaker 2: every episode, which is the dad jokes of the week,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do I'll do an unpicked sort of
Speaker 2: and you'll understand it in a minute. So I've been
Speaker 2: over the past few months. I've done a decent amount
Speaker 2: of flying, and so what I usually like to do,
Speaker 2: at least on Alaska is hook on my computer, the
Speaker 2: Wi Fi and they have a bunch of movies that
Speaker 2: you can watch, and so I've watched some pretty good
Speaker 2: movies over the time time. You know, there's like One Life,
Speaker 2: which is what I talked about, the Anthony Hopkins ones
Speaker 2: about Nicholas Winton and the Accountant. I liked a lot
Speaker 2: with Ben Affleck, but the unpick I picked one is like,
Speaker 2: you know, I've heard about this movie and I'm gonna
Speaker 2: watch it, and it's an old one of I think
Speaker 2: it's one of Jackie Chan's first movies. And it's called
Speaker 2: Rumble in the bron Rumble in the Bronx because I've
Speaker 2: seen some of the other ones. So if you think
Speaker 2: some of the more one once he's more well known for,
Speaker 2: like Rush Hour with Chris Tucker, and I can remember
Speaker 2: one of the first ones I saw of his in
Speaker 2: the theater was with Owen Wilson as Shanghai Knia had
Speaker 2: Lucy Lou. There's one scene in there that had me
Speaker 2: just rolling the eyes laughing so hard while we were
Speaker 2: in the theater and me and this other lady were
Speaker 2: just dying laughing at this one scene where he wakes
Speaker 2: up in this teepee. You got to see it to
Speaker 2: understand it so funny. But I went back and watched
Speaker 2: this one. This had to be one of the worst
Speaker 2: movies I've ever seen it.
Speaker 1: It was so bad. It had to be.
Speaker 2: I don't I can't remember what year it is.
Speaker 1: I have to look it up.
Speaker 2: It's got to be early and there's a decent amount
Speaker 2: of martial arts center, but just the editing, the plot line,
Speaker 2: it's just so poorly done. And the thing that amazed
Speaker 2: me about it is the complete amount of destruction of
Speaker 2: property that happens in this movie, whether it's buildings, whether
Speaker 2: it's vehicles, whether it's boats. You know, in the end,
Speaker 2: there's this whole jet boat is the kind that have
Speaker 2: the big use inflatable Rubbert. You know, they're driving around
Speaker 2: New York on the harbors for tours and stuff, and
Speaker 2: he's driving it on the beach and he's driving on
Speaker 2: those golf course and running over the bad guy at
Speaker 2: the very end, and I was like, I forced myself
Speaker 2: to watch. At the end, I was like, all right,
Speaker 2: I got this far, I might as well watch it
Speaker 2: to the end. But if you want to see, you know,
Speaker 2: something that's funny just because it's made so badly, then
Speaker 2: Rumble in the Bronx is the one to see. For sure.
Speaker 1: I've heard of it.
Speaker 2: I got, I watched the end, and I got back.
Speaker 2: After I was done, I thought, that's an hour and
Speaker 2: a half of my life. I'm never going to get back.
Speaker 2: But I was sitting stuck on a plane, so it
Speaker 2: wasn't like I was going to be doing a lot
Speaker 2: of other stuff anyway, Right.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: Dad jokes of the week. So recently, you know I
Speaker 2: like to use I've been using password managers, like one
Speaker 2: password is one we use. Now use it at work too,
Speaker 2: and it's really great. But before that changed all my
Speaker 2: passwords to be the word incorrect. So now when I
Speaker 2: type in the wrong password, the computer tells me that
Speaker 2: my password is incorrect. Right, So most people know that
Speaker 2: scuba right, like scuba diving is an acronym for self
Speaker 2: contained underwater breathing apparatus. TUBA is also an acronym that
Speaker 2: stands for terrible underwater breathing apparatus.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: And then, finally, speaking of startups, I recently opened a
Speaker 2: company selling trampolines that are disguised as prayer mats. Profits
Speaker 2: are going through the roof. That's pr pH et Anyway,
Speaker 2: those are the dad jokes of the week.
Speaker 1: Awesome, all right, I've got some picks. I usually do
Speaker 1: a board game pick, but I'm just not my brain's
Speaker 1: not going there right now. I'm trying to think what
Speaker 1: I've played lately that I don't know. I guess I'll
Speaker 1: pick Hanabi. I've probably picked this before. It's been quite
Speaker 1: a long time, but this game has been around forever.
Speaker 1: I think hanabi means fireworks in Japanese. And anyway, you
Speaker 1: play your cards. You play a hand of cards, and
Speaker 1: you have your cards facing away from you, and so
Speaker 1: then you can give clues to the other players because
Speaker 1: they can all see your cards. So when it's your turn,
Speaker 1: you can you can give a clue and you can
Speaker 1: say you have you know, two whites, and so then
Speaker 1: you tell them which ones are white, or you have
Speaker 1: two fours, and so you can tell them which ones
Speaker 1: are fours. Right, And you're trying to get five stacks
Speaker 1: of cards that are all the same color, starting at
Speaker 1: one and going up to five, and I think there
Speaker 1: are three ones, two of each of two, three and
Speaker 1: four and then one five of each color. And you
Speaker 1: can you can on your room you can clue somebody else,
Speaker 1: and I believe you use little chips to indicate you
Speaker 1: know how close you are to blowing up, or you
Speaker 1: can get rid of a card out of your hand,
Speaker 1: and if you get rid of the five, you lose
Speaker 1: because you can't. Right. So anyway, fun game. It's really simple,
Speaker 1: and so if you're looking for a fun game that
Speaker 1: you can play with folks. That's a little bit of
Speaker 1: a thinker because you have to keep track of what
Speaker 1: your cards are and I usually wind up turning them
Speaker 1: different ways or things like that, so I know which
Speaker 1: ones are which. It's a fun game. So Hanabi and
Speaker 1: then my wife and I went to the movies yesterday
Speaker 1: and we went and saw a movie called Truth and
Speaker 1: Treason is put out by Angel Studios.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and they got some good stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's about a young man who his friend who's
Speaker 1: a Jew, gets picked up by the SS and you know,
Speaker 1: oh so it's World War it's disappeared, and it's interesting
Speaker 1: because like all the boys in it, they're all from
Speaker 1: a Latter Day Saint congregation, So, you know, a little
Speaker 1: bit of something that I identify with there. But it's
Speaker 1: not a major part of the story. So if you
Speaker 1: don't understand LDS culture, you'll still get it. Just find
Speaker 1: what's going on in the the movie. But anyway, so
Speaker 1: he kind of gets radicalized, so to speak, against the
Speaker 1: Nazi government, and so he starts putting flyers out all
Speaker 1: over Hamburg talking about the evils of the Nazi regime.
Speaker 1: And so it's kind of his story of him doing
Speaker 1: this and trying not to get caught and what happens there.
Speaker 1: I won't spoil it. It's you could probably guess how
Speaker 1: it goes. But anyway, it's just interesting because the kind
Speaker 1: of major point was you have to stand up for truth, right,
Speaker 1: even if it costs you your life. And so anyway,
Speaker 1: terrific message, fascinating story. And yeah, at the end of
Speaker 1: the movie, right, they have kind of the picture of
Speaker 1: the actor and then the picture of the actual person,
Speaker 1: and this person was blah blahlah, don't know, this is
Speaker 1: what happened to these people. And uh, it's interesting because
Speaker 1: the main character was the youngest person who was convicted
Speaker 1: of trees and all this stuff against the Nazis. So anyway, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it turns out his friend in the captions at
Speaker 1: the end you find out his friend was actually taken
Speaker 1: to Auschwitz and died there.
Speaker 2: So anyway, now, have you seen speaking of Angel Studios,
Speaker 2: have you seen The Last Road?
Speaker 1: Yes? Pretty much?
Speaker 2: Pretty I love Neil mcgonnough, Yeah, I love nearly really good.
Speaker 2: He's done some really good stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's boy. That one is uh, how do I
Speaker 1: put it? Like? It is just an intense movie. It's
Speaker 1: I don't know, When I say that, I don't mean like,
Speaker 1: you know, because you think like the action flicks, right,
Speaker 1: and so you know somebody's always running into danger blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. It's not that kind of intense. I mean
Speaker 1: you're you're kind of scared for Neil McDonough's character because
Speaker 1: he's old and he's writing video. Right, It's like, it's
Speaker 1: like this guy's going to kill hold on.
Speaker 2: Let's uh, let's define old here. He's if I read
Speaker 2: the movie description, he's fifty, so.
Speaker 1: He's relatively old to be writing a relatively old thank you.
Speaker 2: Let's clarify that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you right, he's he's older than I am, but
Speaker 1: you know he's old enough to where writing in a rodeo.
Speaker 1: You're just like, right, and the characters had like he
Speaker 1: broke his back and that's why he wasn't writing rodeo, right,
Speaker 1: and so it's like you're going to kill yourself doing this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it was it his son or something grandson.
Speaker 1: Of a brain tumor. And so he's he's writing in
Speaker 1: the rodeo to try and get the money he needs
Speaker 1: to pay for the prize money first for the true treatment.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's a terrific movie. I really really liked it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Angel Studios they have some I saw an interview
Speaker 2: with one of those people on Mike Mike row interview
Speaker 2: on his podcast. And do you talk about some of
Speaker 2: the movies that they've done. Yeah, I think if I
Speaker 2: remember correctly, did they Were they the same people that
Speaker 2: didn't Napoleon Dynamite? Know? No, that was a different group.
Speaker 1: Okay, If it was the same people Napoleon Dynamite was
Speaker 1: before Angel Studios? Was Angel there right right?
Speaker 2: Right? But it's the same people not in that Angel Studio,
Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, them, and they also did maybe
Speaker 2: I'm thinking another group because that same group also did
Speaker 2: the Pooperie commercials, which to this day are some of
Speaker 2: the best, most playerousmmercials I've ever seen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Harmon Brothers. Did I think the Poopoi commercials?
Speaker 2: Okay, that might be who it was.
Speaker 1: And I don't know. It's funny because both the Harmon
Speaker 1: Brothers and and Angel Studios or both they're both Utah companies.
Speaker 1: They're both here right right exactly.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's why I'm getting mixed up.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if they're closely connected or not.
Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, I don't know for sure what if
Speaker 1: Napoleon Dynamite was produced by them or not, or if
Speaker 1: it was somebody else.
Speaker 2: But anyway, all those Utah people they look like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but that that was where John Header got his big start.
Speaker 1: But and it has a lot of the Utah Idaho
Speaker 1: culture stuff in it, Like it's it's funny anyway, but
Speaker 1: if you've lived here for a long time, you're just
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of inside culture her stuff in it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, my son, he's fourteen, and he just saw
Speaker 2: a Napoleon Dynamite like this past week and he hadn't
Speaker 2: seen it before. And I was like, I told him
Speaker 2: I remember a vote for Pedro, and apparently he wants
Speaker 2: He's fourteen, and my wife still wants to go out
Speaker 2: for Halloween, but he wants to go Napoleon's brother, the
Speaker 2: one that wants to be the pro wrestler. That's a
Speaker 2: Halloween costume. So I'm not sure I was going to
Speaker 2: pull that off, but looking forward to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wikipedia says that it was Jared Hess and John
Speaker 1: Header and they were both BYU.
Speaker 2: Shams, Right I remember that much?
Speaker 1: They yeah? So so alrighty anyway, so yeah, so those
Speaker 1: are my picks I, we'll go ahead and wrap it
Speaker 1: up until next time folks max out.