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<v Speaker 1>Hey, folks, welcome to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. This week,

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<v Speaker 1>on your panel, you have Steve.

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<v Speaker 2>Edwards Yo from a cold and rainy Oregon. How's it going.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Charles Maxwood from Top End Devs. It's cold here too.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh man. Well, last week I was on a work

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<v Speaker 2>trip down in two for one trip where I stay

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<v Speaker 2>at my parents and then a bunch of people that

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<v Speaker 2>I work with live in Tucson. I swear there and

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<v Speaker 2>it was oh so nice. It was like mid eighties

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<v Speaker 2>and sunny and clear, and of course you have to

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<v Speaker 2>dress for inside the conference room because everything's over air conditioned,

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<v Speaker 2>but oh so nice, sunny and clear. And then I

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<v Speaker 2>came back at the cold and rainy.

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<v Speaker 1>And uh yeah, yeah. I mean I'm training for a marathon.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna go run the Phoenix Marathon in December.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh really yeah, and.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's so coolie. I got some heated gloves finally,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm kind of curious to see what the weather

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<v Speaker 1>will be like down there in December.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh it'll be nice, yeah, I know, it cold. This

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the last fur times of the year.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, I'm kind of counting on it being sixties.

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<v Speaker 1>Be nice.

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<v Speaker 2>So you haven't actually run a marathon yet, right? Is

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<v Speaker 2>this the first one you're gonna run?

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<v Speaker 1>I ran the Saint George Marathon in twenty nineteen.

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<v Speaker 2>So oh okay, so do you have there's reason I'm

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<v Speaker 2>asking this. Do you have one of those twenty six

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<v Speaker 2>point two stickers on your vehicle or anything?

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<v Speaker 1>You know that's on my truck? I do? Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Say the sticker that I have on my truck and

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<v Speaker 2>on my water bottle says zero point zero. I don't run,

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm sure the antithesis of the runner. I leave

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<v Speaker 2>holes in the pavement when I run, So that's why

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<v Speaker 2>not exactly what you call light footed?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I go, I go run by the way, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>we're just going to be catching up. We do have

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<v Speaker 1>a few topics we're going to talk through the related

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<v Speaker 1>to the JavaScript, but we're just catching up for a minute. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I go running to My father in law is always like,

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<v Speaker 1>well is someone chasing you? Well?

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<v Speaker 2>What's the Bible verse? Was it the evil? The evil?

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<v Speaker 2>Evil ones flea though nobody pursues, you know, So that's

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<v Speaker 2>my excuse for not running.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh there you go, it's.

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<v Speaker 2>The person property.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, He's like, why why would you run because it

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<v Speaker 1>feels good. Well, I've never feel good when I run.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean neither, I mean neither.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah. The other thing is is that my dad,

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<v Speaker 1>he's he's been gone for what like eight years now,

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<v Speaker 1>and he had all these health problems and I just

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to go through what he went through. So, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>just for my clack of exercise, you mean, well, he

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<v Speaker 1>had some other stuff going on. He's gotten a car

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<v Speaker 1>accident when I was twelve, and he developed fibromyalgia oof

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<v Speaker 1>from that, and that was pretty rough on him. Really.

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<v Speaker 2>I always thought that was just a genetic condition. I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't realize you could get it like that.

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<v Speaker 1>My understanding of his situation is that most people who

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<v Speaker 1>have it, yeah, it's a geneticition, so they'll just develop it,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in their teens, and they'll just live with

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<v Speaker 1>it for the rest of their lives. Sure, apparently there

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<v Speaker 1>are a group of people that can develop it if

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<v Speaker 1>your body goes through a certain type and a certain

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<v Speaker 1>amount of trauma. Hm hmm.

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<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this lady t boned his car and they basically

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<v Speaker 1>had to peel the car off him. And yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it was interesting. I know exactly what night it was

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<v Speaker 1>because my mom was all dressed up. They were going

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<v Speaker 1>to go out for Valentine's Day. That was twelve. Sorry'll

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<v Speaker 1>tell you what day and what year. But because she

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<v Speaker 1>looks at me and goes watch the kids. Right as

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<v Speaker 1>soon as the hospital called, said he was in the

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<v Speaker 1>hospital all right, Because I'm the oldest of ten kids

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<v Speaker 1>at the time, there weren't ten of us. But yeah, anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>so I basically went and laid down in my parents' bed,

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<v Speaker 1>and my mom woke me up when she got home

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<v Speaker 1>and said to my bed in that way, if anyone

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<v Speaker 1>came looking for mom, they'd find me. Anyway. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and then he had a hip surgery that went bad,

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<v Speaker 1>and they the doctor, so they were replacing his hip,

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<v Speaker 1>and when they were putting the ball or socket, which

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<v Speaker 1>everyone goes on your leg bone back on, the way

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<v Speaker 1>that they do that is they wedge it into your bone.

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<v Speaker 1>And when the doctor wedged it in, he split the bone.

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<v Speaker 1>And so my dad had nerve nerve damage in his

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<v Speaker 1>left leg, and so he basically would half drag his

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<v Speaker 1>left leg and so he just wasn't active because it hurt.

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<v Speaker 1>And it also hurt and so.

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<v Speaker 2>Anyway, yeah, yeah, I had a friend that had fiber

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<v Speaker 2>mialgia from church, and the way she described it to

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<v Speaker 2>us one time was, if you think about having a

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<v Speaker 2>rubber band a sort of tied it on your finger,

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<v Speaker 2>that pain is like that through your whole body and

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<v Speaker 2>just never stops.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, yeah, yeah it was. Yeah, he was in chronic pain.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, it's much more common in women, apparently byber

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<v Speaker 1>mil ja.

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<v Speaker 2>But okay, but I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, anyway, so yeah, so I just twenty nineteen, I

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<v Speaker 1>just decided. I was like, I'm not I'm not going

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<v Speaker 1>to go through that and then, you know, go through

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<v Speaker 1>all the health issues and I kind of let things

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<v Speaker 1>go for a while, but I realized that I was

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<v Speaker 1>I was heading down that road. So I shaped up

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<v Speaker 1>earlier this year and I've been running and eat and

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<v Speaker 1>right I've lost about fifteen pounds feeling pretty darn good.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, anyway, yeah, I'm to the point now where

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<v Speaker 2>if I don't work out, I feel like a slug.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I did my prossit probably what four or five times

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<v Speaker 2>a week, and play basketball one day a week, and oh,

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<v Speaker 2>there you go and do that stuff. I saw one

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<v Speaker 2>of the funniest memes the other day on Instagram. It

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<v Speaker 2>was some Crossfoait account. It shows this picture of us,

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<v Speaker 2>just this big huge obe lady sitting there, and then

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<v Speaker 2>the caption is what I feel like when I miss

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<v Speaker 2>one day of workout.

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<v Speaker 1>Uh huh.

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<v Speaker 2>Here is like, oh my gosh, I missed today. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna gain. I'm gonna you know, no, it's okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I've been doing here, let

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<v Speaker 1>me pull it up on my phone, because I've been

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<v Speaker 1>doing a program called seventy five Hard. I've done it before,

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<v Speaker 1>so you may have heard. Yeah, I remember you talking

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<v Speaker 1>about it, and so you take a picture every day.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll just hold my phone up to the camera and

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<v Speaker 1>it scott anyway. That's why you see pictures of my belly.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here, but you can see where I'm at on

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<v Speaker 1>this if it'll show.

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<v Speaker 2>The numbers seventy two.

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<v Speaker 1>Huh yeah, I'm on day seventy three. So I finish

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<v Speaker 1>on Friday and then oh now my camera's out of focus.

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<v Speaker 1>That's super fun. So yeah, so I've been doing that.

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<v Speaker 1>And now when you work out twice a day and

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<v Speaker 1>read a book every day and drink a gallon of

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<v Speaker 1>water every day, and I've been feeling pretty good.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's what I need to do. Get better at

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<v Speaker 2>a springle I drink a good amount of water, not

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<v Speaker 2>a gallon a day.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember reading an article going down another rabbit hole.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was on Hacker News or somewhere where

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<v Speaker 2>a lady talked about how she had started drinking a

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<v Speaker 2>gallon of water per day and and how you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it took a while to get used to but now

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<v Speaker 2>so used to it. And she uses like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>flavorings and stuff in water, which to me can make

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<v Speaker 2>a big difference. But she said, just the benefits that

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<v Speaker 2>she noticed in terms of flexibility, in terms of her skin,

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of so many different things. It really made

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<v Speaker 2>a big difference. And so yeah, I have my electrolyzed

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<v Speaker 2>that make my water taste a little better.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so seventy five hard you get quite a gallon.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't add anything to the water. But yeah, so anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's pretty good. Yeah, I've been losing weight. I've

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<v Speaker 1>been feeling pretty good. My clothes fit different, so that's

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<v Speaker 1>always a nice thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Is when your pants aren't so tight, right, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to go buy new pants.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, my church pants, I basically I push I push

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<v Speaker 1>all the loose fabric to the back and I have

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<v Speaker 1>three belt loops that are all right next to each

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<v Speaker 1>other on the back.

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<v Speaker 2>So anyway, so in front of looks great. On the back, Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you got some little loose waisted Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I needed to just go take them in, get it

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<v Speaker 1>taken in because where I got my suit, because I

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<v Speaker 1>just wear a suit for church, they do free alterations

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<v Speaker 1>for life when you buy from them, so I just

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<v Speaker 1>need to take it in and say, please don't fit anymore. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk about JavaScript and market stuff here for a minute,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't know how far down the list we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to get. I mean, one of the things that

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to talk through. And it sounds like you've

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<v Speaker 1>experienced some stuff with this, and I definitely have. I've

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<v Speaker 1>also been talking to people out there in the market,

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<v Speaker 1>and it seems like there are a lot of folks

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<v Speaker 1>that are looking for work right now, and the job

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<v Speaker 1>market's a little bit weird. I think AI is kind

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<v Speaker 1>of put some uncertainty out there. I don't know, what

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<v Speaker 1>are you see in and then I can kind of

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<v Speaker 1>talk about some of the people.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so I just started the job where I'm at

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<v Speaker 2>in mid June, and I started where I'm at in March,

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<v Speaker 2>so I had probably been looking for a year before

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<v Speaker 2>I landed this one. And were you out of work

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<v Speaker 2>before or no? No, no, no, no, I was never out

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<v Speaker 2>of work. I was just wanting to get.

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<v Speaker 1>At you situation. Gotcha? Oh yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I heard a statistic one time that said that something

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<v Speaker 2>like sixty nine percent of people that change jobs do

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<v Speaker 2>so because of their boss. And I followed that sixty

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<v Speaker 2>nine percent. So anyway, I look for.

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<v Speaker 1>You laugh because I've been there.

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<v Speaker 2>I have.

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<v Speaker 1>I've so been there where it's like, okay, I can't

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<v Speaker 1>take any more of this, and yeah, if it's not

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<v Speaker 1>my boss, it's because he tolerates something from somebody else.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well I've been let go. I've been you know

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<v Speaker 2>when I hear about, you know, people getting laid off

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<v Speaker 2>for bedroom employe or whatever I'm taking. You know, I've

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<v Speaker 2>had den camp three times because of financial issues, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's rounds of layoffs and entire office getting let go.

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<v Speaker 2>That was me last type of stuff. Yeah, I've had

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<v Speaker 2>that happen more time. You know, you just get up

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<v Speaker 2>and go find something else. But anyway, so my experiences

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<v Speaker 2>this time around was.

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<v Speaker 1>It just sucks.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, you know, if it's just AI filtering

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<v Speaker 2>things out. But I guess the thing that really bugged

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<v Speaker 2>me was, you know, employers will talk about applicants who

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<v Speaker 2>will you know, just not communicate that will go to you.

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<v Speaker 2>And I had that case. There was probably twenty twenty one.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to say twenty twenty one. I was trying

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<v Speaker 2>to hire a couple of Larevelle and View developers where

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<v Speaker 2>I was at, and I give an example. We had

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<v Speaker 2>this guy and this happened more than once, where we

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<v Speaker 2>really liked him and we wanted to give him an offer,

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<v Speaker 2>and we did continue upon references. And so this one

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<v Speaker 2>particular guy we liked and he gave us some references,

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<v Speaker 2>but they were it had been a few years since

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<v Speaker 2>he had actually worked with these people and so and

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<v Speaker 2>they were fine, you know, what they had to say

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<v Speaker 2>was fine. And we said, well, okay, do you have

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<v Speaker 2>something like from your last job or something more recent?

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<v Speaker 1>Nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>He completely ghosted us. My boss, myself, nobody can go

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<v Speaker 2>with me to drop off phase of the earth, which

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<v Speaker 2>told me maybe there's something more recent. He wanted to hide,

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<v Speaker 2>and we had other people that you know, would just

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<v Speaker 2>drop away so all that to say, come around this time.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm on the other side of the of the situation

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<v Speaker 2>where I'm the one that's deploying. And I had companies

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<v Speaker 2>that would ghost me. Literally They would say, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>so you always it seems like you always go through

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<v Speaker 2>the screening interview with the HR type of person, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're going to ask you some sort of general

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<v Speaker 2>questions and then if you know that, if you answer

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<v Speaker 2>their questions well enough, then you'll move on. They say, okay, y,

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<v Speaker 2>that's great, Okay, We're going to schedule with tech person.

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<v Speaker 2>And sometimes that would happen, you know. I had one

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<v Speaker 2>particular one, probably one of the better situations I had,

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<v Speaker 2>was a particular company and they were looking for a

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<v Speaker 2>Laravel PHP type developer, and I went through like the

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<v Speaker 2>second round with their senior, their manager tech engineering manager.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't remember his exact position anyway, and we went

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<v Speaker 2>through a lot of technical stuff and he was checking

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<v Speaker 2>my knowledge on basic development principles and PHP and that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff, and iventually got the email says, I

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<v Speaker 2>think we decided to move on. So I wrote him

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<v Speaker 2>and I said, I said, hey, just had curiosity always

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<v Speaker 2>looking for feedback. Was it, this and this, you know

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<v Speaker 2>that wasn't able to answer, and he said he came

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<v Speaker 2>back and says, hey, thanks for getting back to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate that. I says, yeah, we're looking for some

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<v Speaker 2>of that as more and more sort of larger knowledge

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<v Speaker 2>and engineering principles. And there was a specific book that

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<v Speaker 2>he referenced, classic development books that I went and got

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm already forgetting design Patterns by the Gang of Four. Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>And I went and boughted after that, you know, to

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<v Speaker 2>familiar eyes with myself. At the next time.

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<v Speaker 1>He was great.

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<v Speaker 2>But I had other people where they would go through

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<v Speaker 2>the first interview, Yeah, we're gonna you know, interview, and

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<v Speaker 2>we wanted to go onto the second interview, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was it. Never heard from them again. And I would

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<v Speaker 2>look out where they had posted the job and they

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<v Speaker 2>still had it open, and just for grans, I would

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<v Speaker 2>just for grans, I would apply again and never heard

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<v Speaker 2>from anybody. That happened two or three times where they

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<v Speaker 2>say one thing, but then they don't even bother to communicate. Hey, sorry,

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<v Speaker 2>we decided to move on. We found a better applicant. Whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that's fine, that happens. I've been on that side,

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<v Speaker 2>I get it, but at least communicate, don't just ghost. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>that happened to me. That happened to me more times

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<v Speaker 2>than I wanted to count, where it's just they say

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<v Speaker 2>one thing and then they just drop off and can't

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<v Speaker 2>even have the courtesy to say, hey, yeah, we moved on.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And then the best though was I interviewed with the

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<v Speaker 2>company that was based here in the Portland area and

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<v Speaker 2>it was a La Belle PHP and I think some

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<v Speaker 2>jobs for I forget the details, but so I went

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<v Speaker 2>through and interviewed with a technical person and all the

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<v Speaker 2>feedback was great, yeah, you know you got this and

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<v Speaker 2>this next, we need to do some interview with that

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<v Speaker 2>and nothing. So like two or three weeks later, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'll wait and wait and then I'll follow hey, just

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<v Speaker 2>you know, checking up, see what's going on. You had

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<v Speaker 2>indicated this, haven't heard anything. And he finally got back

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<v Speaker 2>to me and was like, oh, yeah, we decided the

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<v Speaker 2>jobs on hold. We're not going to hire for it

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<v Speaker 2>money issues. So I don't remember what he said. I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, oh, okay, yeah, I get that. That's fine.

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<v Speaker 2>So then a month later, two or three weeks later,

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<v Speaker 2>I found a position. It was for a recruiter and

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<v Speaker 2>you know head hunter type of guy recruiter, and he

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<v Speaker 2>was hiring for this same position at the same company.

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<v Speaker 2>And the listing was the way it was listening, didn't

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<v Speaker 2>list the same company, but by reading it I could

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<v Speaker 2>tell this sounded really familiar. So just for grins, I

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00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:20.759
<v Speaker 2>set up an appointment and I said, hey, see he

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<v Speaker 2>tells me about it. And I said, you know, I

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00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.720
<v Speaker 2>just interviewed for them, and they told me that they

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<v Speaker 2>weren't hiring for the position, that they put it on hold.

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<v Speaker 2>He goes, huh, okay, well you know I just placed

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<v Speaker 2>somebody there, so I'll you know, yeah, I'll see what

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00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:40.360
<v Speaker 2>I can find out and let you know, never heard

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<v Speaker 2>from him again either.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh wow.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm like, hum, that's interesting. It's just it's just

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<v Speaker 2>irritating as heck. And then the job that I got

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<v Speaker 2>now was through connections, through personal connections, right, And I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't get the job just because the connection. I had

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<v Speaker 2>to run the whole gamut of values and a project

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<v Speaker 2>to do it. But it happened to be somebody that

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<v Speaker 2>mutual connection does My parents actually had know this guy,

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<v Speaker 2>and he said, hey, it's under web developers. Looking, he goes, uh, well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>happen to send me his resume. So I did, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I probably went through I calculated later like

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<v Speaker 2>five different hours of interviews plus a demo, a small

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00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:24.679
<v Speaker 2>demo project, and I got it, you know, went through

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<v Speaker 2>all the and I had to beat somebody else, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's fine, but it was through somebody that I knew,

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<v Speaker 2>just through getting through all the screening and and the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, everything through the applications and then once I

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<v Speaker 2>got in. And so the space I'm in right now

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<v Speaker 2>is is networking, you know, basically internet type of networking.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's I'm still drinking from the fire hose when

333
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<v Speaker 2>it comes to networking and terminology and the stuff. This

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<v Speaker 2>is crazy how much.

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<v Speaker 1>We have to learn.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'm making tools for like network engineers, is what

337
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<v Speaker 2>it is. So it's really cool. And so we had

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<v Speaker 2>to hire. We wanted a back in this world, the

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<v Speaker 2>back of his pythons, the language, the preferred language for

340
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:08.400
<v Speaker 2>all of the things that we do dealing with networking,

341
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<v Speaker 2>and so we had to hire a back end person.

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<v Speaker 2>And I haven't been part of the process, but my boss,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he's obviously hiring for it. And he was

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<v Speaker 2>telling me that when we would open up a position,

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<v Speaker 2>he would just they had to turn it off after

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<v Speaker 2>like a week and a half because they would just

347
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<v Speaker 2>get drowned with applicants. But the issue was a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of people just weren't qualified. He told me they had

349
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<v Speaker 2>a couple of different interviews where it was a foreign

350
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<v Speaker 2>national and he could barely speak English, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it seemed like his Python, his coding skills were great,

352
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<v Speaker 2>but he couldn't hint. You know, my boss said, one

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<v Speaker 2>of the basic requirements for me to be able to

354
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<v Speaker 2>understand to hire him is that I have to be

355
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<v Speaker 2>able to understand him right, you know, and I couldn't

356
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<v Speaker 2>even understand it, which is sort of important for communication.

357
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<v Speaker 2>Even you know, when you're using Slack, you know, there's

358
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<v Speaker 2>still a lot of verbal communication that we do in

359
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<v Speaker 2>person and you know, over zoom meetings and stuff like that.

360
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<v Speaker 2>And so we finally just hired a guy who's going

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<v Speaker 2>to start next week. But it took months, and I

362
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<v Speaker 2>had even had somebody I knew that had a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of IT skills and you know, submitted him and they

364
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<v Speaker 2>reviewed him, but you know, he didn't have that really

365
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<v Speaker 2>hit a lot of the requisite background that we needed,

366
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<v Speaker 2>but but yeah, I was, you just get flooded with

367
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<v Speaker 2>so much stuff, but a lot of it you could

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<v Speaker 2>tell his AI. You'll hear jokes about how you know,

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<v Speaker 2>resumes that you submit you can tell that they've hit

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<v Speaker 2>all the AI keywords, and you know. Some of the

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<v Speaker 2>best excuses I've heard, and I don't remember if it

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<v Speaker 2>was one that we had. I heard Adam Argyle talking

373
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<v Speaker 2>from who used to be with Google. Huh and now

374
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<v Speaker 2>he's one of the hosts on a Whiskey and Web

375
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<v Speaker 2>and whatnot podcast that I'd like to listen to, and

376
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<v Speaker 2>he talks about, here's one of the most skilled guys

377
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.079
<v Speaker 2>out there with CSS. I've heard him on multiple different places,

378
00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.960
<v Speaker 2>and he knows his stuff. It took him months, and

379
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:09.599
<v Speaker 2>he was He talked a lot about this process and

380
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<v Speaker 2>about how frustrating it was for him too, going through

381
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:14.759
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the same stuff, you know, five levels

382
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<v Speaker 2>of interviews because the seniors can't trust their you know,

383
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:19.839
<v Speaker 2>managers to actually make a good decision. They have to

384
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.559
<v Speaker 2>review it to you know type of stuff. But just

385
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<v Speaker 2>dealing with all the AI stuff, and I think one

386
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<v Speaker 2>of the things we heard was like examples I saw was,

387
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<v Speaker 2>you know, I've been working with tailwind since twenty fourteen.

388
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.720
<v Speaker 2>Well Tailwind didn't exist in twenty fourteen, So it's sort

389
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<v Speaker 2>of hard. How do you work with something that didn't

390
00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:41.039
<v Speaker 2>exist at that one You know, that tells you, you

391
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<v Speaker 2>know that somebody's you know, just reading a job description

392
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<v Speaker 2>and is saying, okay, give me a cover let for this,

393
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and it's saying as typical AI. If it doesn't have it,

394
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<v Speaker 2>it makes it up. And so you get stuff like

395
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<v Speaker 2>this saying you got skills for something that never existed

396
00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:59.559
<v Speaker 2>in you know, at that particular point in time, or

397
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<v Speaker 2>has any I've been working with so and so framework

398
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<v Speaker 2>for ten years, Well it's only existed for five, yeah

399
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:10.200
<v Speaker 2>you know so. But yeah, it's it's just brutal. It's

400
00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.160
<v Speaker 2>just brutal wading through and you know, getting people to

401
00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:14.839
<v Speaker 2>communicate and and.

402
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:16.200
<v Speaker 1>To be fair.

403
00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.079
<v Speaker 2>On the other side of things, they're getting flooded, you know,

404
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.519
<v Speaker 2>they've got so much stuff to wade through and trying

405
00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.759
<v Speaker 2>to determine what's legit, yeah, versus what's not legit is tough.

406
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.680
<v Speaker 2>So it's it sucks on both sides, It really doesn't.

407
00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that's tricky. It's interesting because on the other end,

408
00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:42.519
<v Speaker 1>I just keep thinking of the situation. So back in

409
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:47.039
<v Speaker 1>like twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, I think it was a

410
00:20:47.160 --> 00:20:51.680
<v Speaker 1>Rails comp. DHH got up and he said that he

411
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<v Speaker 1>had gotten or went on I think it went on

412
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:56.720
<v Speaker 1>on Twitter and then people were talking about it Rails comp.

413
00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:02.319
<v Speaker 1>But he got contacted because by a recruiter that said,

414
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<v Speaker 1>you're the only person that we can find that has

415
00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:09.039
<v Speaker 1>ten years of experience with Rails. And the thing that

416
00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:11.759
<v Speaker 1>was funny was that he was the only person in

417
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<v Speaker 1>the world who had ten years of experience with Rails

418
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:18.799
<v Speaker 1>because it had been released nine years ago, right, so

419
00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.960
<v Speaker 1>he you know, he'd been working on it privately at

420
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<v Speaker 1>base camp.

421
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.799
<v Speaker 2>Right they and they wanted ten years with l Yeah,

422
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:30.119
<v Speaker 2>maybe they need to look at their requirements.

423
00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.160
<v Speaker 1>Right, It was pretty funny. Yeah, I've seen all kinds

424
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.279
<v Speaker 1>of stuff, and I think more and more people are

425
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.720
<v Speaker 1>going to be looking for kind of the real genuine thing.

426
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.720
<v Speaker 1>And so what you're talking about, I think AI is helpful.

427
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.680
<v Speaker 1>Like if you hand at your resume and say, hey,

428
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:48.319
<v Speaker 1>help me polish this, make suggestions things like that. But

429
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.839
<v Speaker 1>I've done that with my resume when I was looking

430
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.160
<v Speaker 1>last year or I guess it was early this year,

431
00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:58.400
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, it would, it would. It would suggest you

432
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.359
<v Speaker 1>should put things like this on here, And I was like, yeah,

433
00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:05.160
<v Speaker 1>but I haven't done any of those things, right, Like

434
00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:06.519
<v Speaker 1>I have to. I have to be able to go

435
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.680
<v Speaker 1>into an interview and talk about when I did these

436
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:14.119
<v Speaker 1>things right, right, and and I would really prefer not

437
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:16.599
<v Speaker 1>to lie to people when I apply for jobs.

438
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:23.000
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, yeah, especially if they come back later and

439
00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:23.920
<v Speaker 2>find out you lie.

440
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:26.319
<v Speaker 1>Right, I mean, there's just there's no there's no good

441
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:29.680
<v Speaker 1>scenario there. Your best case scenario is they never find out.

442
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:34.039
<v Speaker 1>But why run Well but the other thing is is

443
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.759
<v Speaker 1>that I I don't know, I would know and it

444
00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:44.160
<v Speaker 1>would bother me. So anyway, Yeah, but I can also see, hey,

445
00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, is there a better way to word this.

446
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I would like this to you know, have more action

447
00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:55.680
<v Speaker 1>or active oriented stuff as opposed to you know, eliminate

448
00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.039
<v Speaker 1>passive voice in my resume kind of thing. You know.

449
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:00.960
<v Speaker 1>So all that stuff it definitely helped, you know, And

450
00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:03.680
<v Speaker 1>some of the suggestions, there were a handful of them

451
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:05.359
<v Speaker 1>where I was like, oh, yeah, I did that, and

452
00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:12.880
<v Speaker 1>that is something that helps, right. So anyway, Yeah, but

453
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.599
<v Speaker 1>one thing that I've been hearing from people because my well,

454
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:18.119
<v Speaker 1>let me back up. So you talked about kind of

455
00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.720
<v Speaker 1>the experience getting hired and hiring. They haven't been pulling

456
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:24.319
<v Speaker 1>me in on interviews lately at Price Picks, and mostly

457
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.079
<v Speaker 1>it's because they're interviewing front end folks and I just

458
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:31.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't have enough react native experience to really go

459
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:39.079
<v Speaker 1>deep with anybody. But yeah, you know, I applied for

460
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.680
<v Speaker 1>a job and then the person who had listed the

461
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:44.880
<v Speaker 1>job came back to me and said, I'm a recruiter

462
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:47.720
<v Speaker 1>and this is Price Picks. Is that okay? And I

463
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.759
<v Speaker 1>said yeah, And so then I went through the process.

464
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:51.640
<v Speaker 1>So I applied for a company that I had never

465
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.200
<v Speaker 1>heard before, and it turned out it was a company

466
00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:55.799
<v Speaker 1>I had heard of before. So it just kind of

467
00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:57.759
<v Speaker 1>worked out that way. And yeah, I did the first

468
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.279
<v Speaker 1>interview and it was just kind of a with one

469
00:24:00.279 --> 00:24:03.519
<v Speaker 1>of the directors of the company, h you know, director

470
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:06.759
<v Speaker 1>of engineering level folks. They're a handful of them at

471
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:10.160
<v Speaker 1>Price Picks, and so yeah, made sure I wasn't a

472
00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.519
<v Speaker 1>psychopath and somebody they liked to work with, and you know,

473
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:16.200
<v Speaker 1>then did the technical interview and they gave me a

474
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:22.359
<v Speaker 1>bunch of coding exercises on what what's that there's a

475
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.240
<v Speaker 1>website that has a bunch of them on there.

476
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.039
<v Speaker 2>There's a few different ones. What's the I can't even

477
00:24:28.039 --> 00:24:30.039
<v Speaker 2>think of the main ones and people are probably screaming

478
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:34.039
<v Speaker 2>at us, going, oh, this is so obvious. Yeah, I

479
00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.480
<v Speaker 2>can't remember the one that we used to use. I

480
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:38.799
<v Speaker 2>try to block it out. Really, there's the one that

481
00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.400
<v Speaker 2>there's one really popular. I think I think it was

482
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.759
<v Speaker 2>lead Code Lead Code. Yeah, that's it, and we can

483
00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:48.160
<v Speaker 2>literally they will, you can go practice for it. I

484
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:51.759
<v Speaker 2>mean that stuffs pretty much dead now well with AI

485
00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:53.839
<v Speaker 2>because you can just get a question and run through

486
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.799
<v Speaker 2>AI and you know, yeah, I heard stories that I

487
00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:01.119
<v Speaker 2>think my boss was telling me you said they him

488
00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:02.839
<v Speaker 2>or something. I don't remember where I heard the story,

489
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.599
<v Speaker 2>but literally they had been in an interview where you

490
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.720
<v Speaker 2>could tell that the person was typing stuff into AI

491
00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:13.839
<v Speaker 2>during the interview and getting answers out.

492
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

493
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:22.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh, that's that's pretty Yeah,

494
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:23.880
<v Speaker 2>got say it's fun, you know. I tried to get

495
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.160
<v Speaker 2>away with something like that. Yeah, So I had done.

496
00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:30.920
<v Speaker 1>I had applied to a contract because I was in

497
00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:33.200
<v Speaker 1>a nightmare contract for the first three months of this year,

498
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:35.599
<v Speaker 1>and so I was looking at another contract, and they

499
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:38.160
<v Speaker 1>gave me a leak code to solve, and I solved it.

500
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:41.319
<v Speaker 1>I solved it with like I I had a half

501
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.319
<v Speaker 1>hour and I saw it twenty minutes. And anyway, it

502
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.240
<v Speaker 1>was funny because when I had to do the eleak

503
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:48.759
<v Speaker 1>code for Price Picks, they gave me like five of

504
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:51.039
<v Speaker 1>them to solve, and one of them was the one

505
00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 1>that I had done like a week before, and so

506
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.400
<v Speaker 1>and I told him that too. I was like, look,

507
00:25:57.480 --> 00:25:59.880
<v Speaker 1>I was like, this one's gonna look like I saw

508
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:02.359
<v Speaker 1>it in ten minutes. And the reason is is because

509
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:04.920
<v Speaker 1>I remember what I did on the other one, and

510
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:06.559
<v Speaker 1>so I just did it again and made it a

511
00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:07.200
<v Speaker 1>little cleaner.

512
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:09.160
<v Speaker 2>You know.

513
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:10.720
<v Speaker 1>It's funny. When we were doing.

514
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:15.279
<v Speaker 2>Gosh, I wish I could remember what platform we use.

515
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:17.400
<v Speaker 2>But it was cool because you could sort of pick

516
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:19.160
<v Speaker 2>and choose what questions you wanted to give. You know,

517
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.079
<v Speaker 2>there'sp there's JavaScript or sequel or you know whatever, a

518
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:26.759
<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of different categories. And one of the things

519
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:29.839
<v Speaker 2>that you could tell was how long it took him

520
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:34.200
<v Speaker 2>to do a question. And so we're looking at one

521
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.319
<v Speaker 2>the results from one test that this guy had done

522
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:40.480
<v Speaker 2>and one of them and my boss was really picky.

523
00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:42.319
<v Speaker 2>I hadn't noticed this so much, but he would look

524
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:44.559
<v Speaker 2>at time. He goes, Man, this guy got this one

525
00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:46.759
<v Speaker 2>real quick. And so he goes through and looks and

526
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:50.799
<v Speaker 2>starts do some searching, and sure enough finds a GitHub

527
00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:55.039
<v Speaker 2>repo with answers to these specific questions. So basically, this

528
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.920
<v Speaker 2>guy had found one out copy paste says that, Okay,

529
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.359
<v Speaker 2>I'm good, you know, instead of at least making an

530
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:01.599
<v Speaker 2>effort to you know, type it in and you know,

531
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.240
<v Speaker 2>make it look like you'd actually taken some time and

532
00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 2>doing it.

533
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:06.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I had one.

534
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I had one of the one of the positions that

535
00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:10.920
<v Speaker 2>I interviewed for, I had to do a coding test

536
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:14.160
<v Speaker 2>and it was there was some JavaScript stuff and there

537
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:18.200
<v Speaker 2>was some sequel And I've lived in SQL for years,

538
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, doing quers and stuff like that, but it

539
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:26.839
<v Speaker 2>was in their UI and I had no, you know,

540
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:29.240
<v Speaker 2>nothing to play with. I had none of my usual

541
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:31.640
<v Speaker 2>tools that I can use to debug something and step

542
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.640
<v Speaker 2>through something or even just run some basic queries. You

543
00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.039
<v Speaker 2>just basically had to generate a query on the fly

544
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.279
<v Speaker 2>and get it right. And I totally bombed them on

545
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:44.400
<v Speaker 2>stuff that if I had my own tools and my

546
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:46.480
<v Speaker 2>own you know, ways of doing things I probably could

547
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:49.559
<v Speaker 2>have done pretty easily, you know, even in a browser.

548
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.799
<v Speaker 2>And that was really frustrating. And they never even got

549
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:53.519
<v Speaker 2>I submitted the test. I never even heard yeah you

550
00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:56.440
<v Speaker 2>didn't pass the test. No communication, no nothing. That was

551
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.720
<v Speaker 2>what was really frustrating about it. But for the job

552
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.559
<v Speaker 2>that I I'm at now, they had a little project,

553
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and what was cool about it was it wasn't just

554
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:09.480
<v Speaker 2>some sort of make work type of thing, you know,

555
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.240
<v Speaker 2>not a real situation. They said, here is you know,

556
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:16.240
<v Speaker 2>if you try to use this carbon library from IBM,

557
00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:19.119
<v Speaker 2>which is absolutely atrocious, I would never use it, you

558
00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:21.720
<v Speaker 2>know if you paid me money to use it as awful.

559
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:26.119
<v Speaker 2>I ended up using Tailwind with it, and it was

560
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.880
<v Speaker 2>using a little library called Codemere, which we use on

561
00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:35.119
<v Speaker 2>our current side it and uh, you know, like a

562
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.799
<v Speaker 2>Yama editor type of thing anyway, and you know, create

563
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.960
<v Speaker 2>a project that does this in this and generates file

564
00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:44.039
<v Speaker 2>in such such a format and saves it. And so

565
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:46.680
<v Speaker 2>it was pretty It turned out I was overthinking, was

566
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:49.440
<v Speaker 2>overthinking and trying to get the specific font colors and

567
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:52.079
<v Speaker 2>spend more time on that than the rest of the project,

568
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:53.920
<v Speaker 2>which I could have done in about you know, four hours.

569
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:56.720
<v Speaker 2>But that was what was cool about it is I

570
00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:58.759
<v Speaker 2>did my project, you know, pushed it up to get

571
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.799
<v Speaker 2>they could all look at it. And then in my interview,

572
00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:02.680
<v Speaker 2>I just stepped went through and explained this is what

573
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I did, and this is how I did it and

574
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:05.400
<v Speaker 2>why I did it, and that great stuff. And it

575
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:06.920
<v Speaker 2>worked great to me.

576
00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:08.079
<v Speaker 1>That was great. You know.

577
00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:10.720
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like, you know, a huge LNG project. It

578
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:14.319
<v Speaker 2>was a real project based on real life situation. And

579
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.640
<v Speaker 2>funny enough, I'm to the point now I'm actually working

580
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:19.240
<v Speaker 2>with that exact same thing that I did in my

581
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:21.119
<v Speaker 2>test project right now and what I'm working on.

582
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:31.119
<v Speaker 1>Nice. Yeah, it's it's funny how those kind of come around.

583
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:33.440
<v Speaker 1>I like the idea of doing something that's more real world,

584
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:38.559
<v Speaker 1>oh absolutely, you know, absolutely and make work. You know.

585
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.240
<v Speaker 2>Imaginary projects are like, you know, give me a class

586
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.160
<v Speaker 2>that generates what is something you pass it in. It's

587
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:49.759
<v Speaker 2>that you have to return a fruit. But your classes

588
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:51.279
<v Speaker 2>have to you know, you got to have a base

589
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:54.119
<v Speaker 2>class and then your different fruit types. Really where is

590
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:54.839
<v Speaker 2>this real world?

591
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:55.279
<v Speaker 1>You know?

592
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:00.799
<v Speaker 2>But you got an animal and needed I have this

593
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:02.720
<v Speaker 2>one needs to growl and this one needs to bark.

594
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:06.200
<v Speaker 2>And this one needs to not have a tail and okay,

595
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:06.599
<v Speaker 2>thank you.

596
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:19.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So anyway, kind of rolling back to back to

597
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:22.200
<v Speaker 1>my hiring process, Yeah, I did that, and then I

598
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.400
<v Speaker 1>went through the technical interview. The recruiter was involved the

599
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:28.599
<v Speaker 1>whole time, and so he had all my results from

600
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:33.359
<v Speaker 1>my coding exercises, which incidentally, he was like, they looked

601
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.720
<v Speaker 1>at your coding exercises and you scored higher on that

602
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.359
<v Speaker 1>than they've ever seen. But I've been doing Rube forever.

603
00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:42.799
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so was your recruiter like a recruiter that

604
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:44.359
<v Speaker 2>worked for the company or like a third.

605
00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:46.559
<v Speaker 1>He was a third party recruiter that they had hired

606
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:50.720
<v Speaker 1>and he just shepherded people through. But yeah, it was

607
00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:54.079
<v Speaker 1>it was pretty seamless process. After that, I want to

608
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:57.440
<v Speaker 1>spin a little bit toward where I'm talking to folks

609
00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.720
<v Speaker 1>and I'm I'm talking to some senior folks who are

610
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:04.400
<v Speaker 1>having trouble finding work, like finding jobs, and then I'm

611
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.119
<v Speaker 1>running across like junior people. It sounds like it's just

612
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:09.319
<v Speaker 1>impossible to find a job.

613
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:12.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've heard that too, and I think you and

614
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I and Dan might have talked about this a couple

615
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.160
<v Speaker 2>episodes ago when we were talking and I you know,

616
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.319
<v Speaker 2>I haven't talked to you know, people myself but who

617
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:25.079
<v Speaker 2>have been doing this. But what I'm what I read

618
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.640
<v Speaker 2>in multiple places is that people aren't hiring junior so much.

619
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:35.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, they use They figure the AI can can

620
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:36.759
<v Speaker 2>do a lot of that stuff, so they only want

621
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.160
<v Speaker 2>to senior people. So of course, what's the classic twenty

622
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.720
<v Speaker 2>catch twenty two? How do you get seen people if

623
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.440
<v Speaker 2>they have in the first place, Right, It's like, yeah,

624
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.200
<v Speaker 2>automatically got to go to a boot camp and all

625
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:48.960
<v Speaker 2>of a sudden you're an expert and then you can

626
00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:53.240
<v Speaker 2>get hired. It makes no sense. So you know, as

627
00:31:53.279 --> 00:32:00.359
<v Speaker 2>an interview I read heard with the Coinbase CTO, one

628
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:03.359
<v Speaker 2>of the c suitet people, and they were talking about

629
00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:07.279
<v Speaker 2>how they use AI for up to thirty to forty

630
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:11.079
<v Speaker 2>percent of their code and that includes like review processes

631
00:32:11.160 --> 00:32:14.880
<v Speaker 2>and deployments and stuff like that. So it's it's quite

632
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:20.160
<v Speaker 2>an interesting interview to listen to. But but yeah, I mean,

633
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:24.359
<v Speaker 2>that's that's huge. That's a lot of especially for something

634
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:28.279
<v Speaker 2>of that scale, that seems like a lot of code

635
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:29.240
<v Speaker 2>to be trusting your.

636
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:36.599
<v Speaker 1>To AI. Yeah, it's I don't know, I kind of

637
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.160
<v Speaker 1>see it cut in both ways. I think it's short

638
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:42.319
<v Speaker 1>sighted to hand off so much stuff to AI. I

639
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.720
<v Speaker 1>think it's also short sighted not to be investing in

640
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:49.079
<v Speaker 1>people because you're going to need them. That said, so

641
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.000
<v Speaker 1>here here's the issue that I run into, and I'll

642
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.440
<v Speaker 1>probably piss some people off with my opinions on some

643
00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:56.920
<v Speaker 1>of this stuff. So I was at a conference a

644
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.519
<v Speaker 1>few weeks ago and there were a couple of talks

645
00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.319
<v Speaker 1>on these topics, and one of the talks they were

646
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:05.680
<v Speaker 1>going talking about, you know, well we have immense privilege

647
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.119
<v Speaker 1>and blah blah blah blah blah. And my deal is

648
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:10.680
<v Speaker 1>is you you people who are talking about this have

649
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:13.799
<v Speaker 1>never run a freaking business, right, You have no idea

650
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.000
<v Speaker 1>what you're talking about, you know. It's It's one thing

651
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:21.119
<v Speaker 1>if you know I have some margin and I'm willing

652
00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:25.359
<v Speaker 1>to train people, right. It's another thing if I'm in

653
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.640
<v Speaker 1>a small, scrappy business and I'm just trying to eke

654
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:31.319
<v Speaker 1>out the next few thousand dollars a month so that

655
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:34.839
<v Speaker 1>I can figure out who to hire next, right, and

656
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.039
<v Speaker 1>then whoever I hire next, I need to get the

657
00:33:37.079 --> 00:33:39.559
<v Speaker 1>biggest bang for my buck out of them. And so

658
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:43.119
<v Speaker 1>that may be a junior, right, if it's somebody in

659
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:45.759
<v Speaker 1>my position and I'm building a like a software as

660
00:33:45.759 --> 00:33:49.880
<v Speaker 1>a service or something like that. I could see hiring

661
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.440
<v Speaker 1>a junior developer, teaching them how to use the AI

662
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:57.000
<v Speaker 1>tools and saying, okay, you know, if you if you're

663
00:33:57.079 --> 00:33:59.880
<v Speaker 1>not sure, ask me, right, and so this is this

664
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.559
<v Speaker 1>is how far I trust the AI. So this is

665
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.400
<v Speaker 1>about how far I expect you to do it, and

666
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:06.839
<v Speaker 1>then yeah, I'll mentor you through the rest of it. Right,

667
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:09.239
<v Speaker 1>And I can save myself some money and have a

668
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.119
<v Speaker 1>developer building features for me, or I may want to

669
00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:15.280
<v Speaker 1>go just hire somebody that's as high up in the

670
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.880
<v Speaker 1>game as I can afford and do that right. And

671
00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:22.000
<v Speaker 1>I think I think the talking about privilege or you

672
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:24.159
<v Speaker 1>know this that or the other, any other kind of

673
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.239
<v Speaker 1>concern is just stupid at that point because you're small

674
00:34:27.719 --> 00:34:29.719
<v Speaker 1>and you're just trying to get crap done. That the

675
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:34.679
<v Speaker 1>bigger companies, I think they're insane if they're not investing

676
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.639
<v Speaker 1>in their pipeline to bring people up, because at the

677
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.840
<v Speaker 1>end of the day, what we're looking at is, yeah,

678
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:45.880
<v Speaker 1>if nobody's hiring juniors, then the only people who are

679
00:34:45.960 --> 00:34:49.239
<v Speaker 1>going to have mid level people to hire are going

680
00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:51.159
<v Speaker 1>to be the people who are training them as juniors.

681
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.559
<v Speaker 1>And then the other thing is is that a lot

682
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:56.519
<v Speaker 1>of these companies have to change the way they think

683
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.840
<v Speaker 1>about this stuff because what happens is they hire them

684
00:34:59.880 --> 00:35:01.920
<v Speaker 1>is juniors, and they pay them as juniors for a

685
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.400
<v Speaker 1>few years, and then they don't give them a raise

686
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:07.440
<v Speaker 1>and a promotion and a reason to stick around, and

687
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.159
<v Speaker 1>then they lose them, and then they complain that they

688
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.679
<v Speaker 1>lost them. And it's like, this isn't rocket science. If

689
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:14.039
<v Speaker 1>you give them a great place to work and you

690
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:19.079
<v Speaker 1>pay them what they're worth, they'll stay. And so I

691
00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:21.440
<v Speaker 1>think there's some adjustment that's going to have to be

692
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:23.280
<v Speaker 1>made there because the mindset on a lot of this

693
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.800
<v Speaker 1>stuff is insane. But I just I don't know that

694
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:28.880
<v Speaker 1>they're going to hire as many people because yeah, a

695
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:30.599
<v Speaker 1>lot of the stuff that I would hire a junior

696
00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:34.679
<v Speaker 1>developer for, I can get the AI to do it.

697
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.840
<v Speaker 1>And if I'm if I'm solopreneuring my own software as

698
00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:42.400
<v Speaker 1>the service and the marginal cost of my time and

699
00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:45.199
<v Speaker 1>money leads me toward, Hey, I'm gonna have the AI

700
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.760
<v Speaker 1>do a lot of this basic stuff. You know, I

701
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.320
<v Speaker 1>save myself a whole bunch of time and effort. Then

702
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to do it, and it's anyway, it's it's

703
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:57.639
<v Speaker 1>kind of an interesting spot. But the other thing is

704
00:35:57.760 --> 00:35:59.920
<v Speaker 1>is a lot of the boot camps are shutting down.

705
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:01.880
<v Speaker 1>Like I've talked to a whole bunch of people that

706
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:02.760
<v Speaker 1>run boot camps, and.

707
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:06.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was that seemed like a sort of a bubble,

708
00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:09.440
<v Speaker 2>bubble that was waiting to pop, you know, because it

709
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:11.320
<v Speaker 2>used to be you know, there was a hey day.

710
00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure you can remember this, and I've heard this

711
00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.719
<v Speaker 2>multiple places, you know, was you know, boot camp, go

712
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:18.440
<v Speaker 2>to a boot can't come out and be expecting to

713
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.679
<v Speaker 2>make six figures right out of the gate, you know,

714
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.639
<v Speaker 2>because the man was there and it's over hiring, and

715
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:24.880
<v Speaker 2>well that bubble is obviously.

716
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:26.320
<v Speaker 1>Popped and they've laid off a bunch.

717
00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:30.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's basic, right, it's basic economics, right, you know,

718
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:32.559
<v Speaker 2>the demand was there for a while and then you've

719
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:37.760
<v Speaker 2>got over some demand decreases. But yeah, right, so you

720
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.360
<v Speaker 2>know you need you need people that actually can do it,

721
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, can do the work. And so I mean

722
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:46.519
<v Speaker 2>just the number of tech jobs periods has dropped, so

723
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:50.440
<v Speaker 2>you don't have quite the demand for for getting as

724
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.679
<v Speaker 2>many developers out there. And so yeah, I mean, it's

725
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:57.760
<v Speaker 2>so logical, Yeah, what you expect to happen, Yeah, based

726
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.440
<v Speaker 2>on the decrease in demand.

727
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.000
<v Speaker 1>But the the thing is is that software isn't like

728
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.719
<v Speaker 1>a lot of other products in the sense that you know,

729
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:09.920
<v Speaker 1>like if I go buy a whole bunch. We were

730
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.840
<v Speaker 1>talking about like these energy drinks before the show, right,

731
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:16.320
<v Speaker 1>and you know, I've got like three cases of energy

732
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:18.639
<v Speaker 1>drinks because they were on sale, right, and so I

733
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:20.159
<v Speaker 1>was like, I'm buying a ton of Net of the

734
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.400
<v Speaker 1>Gods baby, right, Yeah, I got I've got these form

735
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.079
<v Speaker 1>energy drinks and I got plus water. I got them

736
00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:29.239
<v Speaker 1>from seven to eleven right when they were a bucketpiece

737
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:32.039
<v Speaker 1>during their one dollar promotion. Part of it I did

738
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:35.599
<v Speaker 1>also because I really like Andy Frizella, and he was saying,

739
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.559
<v Speaker 1>we're doing the one dollar deal. Go, you know, basically

740
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:40.679
<v Speaker 1>run them out of our product, right, show them that

741
00:37:40.719 --> 00:37:44.039
<v Speaker 1>people really want this stuff. And you know, he's he's

742
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:46.360
<v Speaker 1>his podcast. I feel like I've learned a lot from

743
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:49.000
<v Speaker 1>and so it's like, oh, I can go spend thirty

744
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.239
<v Speaker 1>or forty bucks and you know, do him a solid.

745
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.280
<v Speaker 1>I get an energy drink I like, and so it

746
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.920
<v Speaker 1>was a win win. But anyway, the difference is is

747
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:01.400
<v Speaker 1>that once I have so many energy drinks, I'm not

748
00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:03.920
<v Speaker 1>going to need I'm not going to need more for

749
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.960
<v Speaker 1>a while, right, I can only consume it so fast.

750
00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:12.440
<v Speaker 1>Software is different because there's always more stuff that I

751
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.159
<v Speaker 1>can do, right, whether it's making it faster, making it

752
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.199
<v Speaker 1>run better, making it cleaner, adding more features and so.

753
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:25.400
<v Speaker 1>On the one hand, yeah, right, there there was the

754
00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:28.119
<v Speaker 1>demand was high, and a lot of it had to

755
00:38:28.199 --> 00:38:30.639
<v Speaker 1>do with the economy. Right. The economy was pretty good

756
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.079
<v Speaker 1>under Trump until COVID, and then it slowed down a

757
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:36.000
<v Speaker 1>whole bunch. I think that hurt him in the election

758
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:38.320
<v Speaker 1>and was part of the reason he didn't get elected.

759
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:40.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to get into all the politics of

760
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.679
<v Speaker 1>it because that will piss people off for no reason.

761
00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:46.960
<v Speaker 1>But you know, the economy wasn't as good under Biden,

762
00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.000
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of stuff slowed down, and so you

763
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:53.239
<v Speaker 1>know it's like, hey, look, I can keep going on

764
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:55.960
<v Speaker 1>what I have and not invest so much in the

765
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:59.840
<v Speaker 1>R and D side of development and still keep my

766
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.920
<v Speaker 1>doors open and my customer's happy, and wait for the

767
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.239
<v Speaker 1>economy to bump back up so that I can invest

768
00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.840
<v Speaker 1>more into kind of the speculative stuff later and so

769
00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:13.760
<v Speaker 1>I think that's part of the reason why the amendment

770
00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:16.159
<v Speaker 1>down too. And then the other thing is is that

771
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.920
<v Speaker 1>in the Trump tax cuts. Right here, I'm going to

772
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.960
<v Speaker 1>smack both sides. In the Trump tax cuts, there was

773
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.960
<v Speaker 1>a provision that changed in the tax law where before

774
00:39:29.079 --> 00:39:31.199
<v Speaker 1>you could write off all of your R and D

775
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:34.280
<v Speaker 1>costs in the year that you spent it. And so

776
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.079
<v Speaker 1>if I hired Steve Edwards and I said, Steve, I

777
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:40.360
<v Speaker 1>want you to develop these six new features for me,

778
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:43.159
<v Speaker 1>and we're going to add them to the application, then

779
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:45.239
<v Speaker 1>I could write that off as an R and D

780
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:49.719
<v Speaker 1>expense this year, right or next year when I filed

781
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:52.559
<v Speaker 1>my taxes right as an R and D expense, And

782
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.840
<v Speaker 1>they changed that, and they changed it so that you

783
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:57.800
<v Speaker 1>could only write off twenty percent per year, right, So

784
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:00.480
<v Speaker 1>now I have to amortize it over five years. And

785
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:03.760
<v Speaker 1>so all of a sudden, the tax incentives for me

786
00:40:03.880 --> 00:40:07.840
<v Speaker 1>to do this work aren't nearly as good, and I

787
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:11.440
<v Speaker 1>have to ration the tax break that I'm getting over

788
00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:16.079
<v Speaker 1>five years, and so I'm not as keen to invest

789
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:18.960
<v Speaker 1>that money now into the R and D as I

790
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.519
<v Speaker 1>was before. And I don't know, I think that affects

791
00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:23.519
<v Speaker 1>the bigger companies a lot more in the smaller companies.

792
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:25.039
<v Speaker 1>The smaller companies are just going to pay for what

793
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.480
<v Speaker 1>they need period the end. But the bigger companies, you know,

794
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:32.480
<v Speaker 1>the fortune five hundred companies, the companies with you know,

795
00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:35.320
<v Speaker 1>five hundred plus employees, where it's it's more than just

796
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:38.320
<v Speaker 1>a tiny line item. You know, eighty percent of that

797
00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.719
<v Speaker 1>tax break went away. You know, yeah, I'll get twenty

798
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.239
<v Speaker 1>another twenty percent of it next year. But I think

799
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:50.519
<v Speaker 1>that affected things too. And then yeah, that the other

800
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.960
<v Speaker 1>thing is is that I think there were enough senior

801
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:55.639
<v Speaker 1>developers to cover a lot of the work, and so

802
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:59.480
<v Speaker 1>hiring junior developers just got harder. And with the economy

803
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:03.119
<v Speaker 1>softening and salary softening, you could hire more developer for

804
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:06.639
<v Speaker 1>less money, right because if you're out of work and

805
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.360
<v Speaker 1>you're out of work for six months, you know what

806
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:11.440
<v Speaker 1>you're worth, but you may just take what you can get.

807
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:15.840
<v Speaker 1>So I think there are a lot of things that

808
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:19.599
<v Speaker 1>go into this outside of just supply and demand, because

809
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:22.320
<v Speaker 1>at the end of the day, more developers just means

810
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.320
<v Speaker 1>more stuff getting done. So unless you just don't have

811
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:31.079
<v Speaker 1>stuff for people to do, right, well, even that's an

812
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:34.599
<v Speaker 1>ify statement. You know, there's the whole issue of how

813
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:35.599
<v Speaker 1>good your developers are.

814
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, adding throwing developers at a project

815
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:44.519
<v Speaker 2>doesn't always make it go bettermental Yeah, that's a whole

816
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.480
<v Speaker 2>topic for a different complete episode.

817
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:51.440
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, my point is is that there's economics that

818
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:54.719
<v Speaker 1>come into play. There is the supply and demand issue.

819
00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:56.800
<v Speaker 1>I think that's part of it. There's the skill level

820
00:41:56.840 --> 00:41:59.800
<v Speaker 1>of people. There's what people are willing to accept because

821
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:03.440
<v Speaker 1>job market isn't as good anyway. There's a lot there, I.

822
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Mean, any any you know, my degree was economics in college,

823
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:09.079
<v Speaker 2>and I say this, you know, way back a while

824
00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:11.119
<v Speaker 2>and spent a lot of times that I studied it.

825
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:13.920
<v Speaker 2>But I remember a lot of the basics. And if

826
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:16.599
<v Speaker 2>you think about you know, the dot com bust, you know,

827
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.760
<v Speaker 2>late nineties, early two thousand, uh, this is sort of

828
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:23.000
<v Speaker 2>the same thing where everybody jumps in. You got a

829
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:26.280
<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of supply, right, and a lot of stuff

830
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.639
<v Speaker 2>just doesn't belong. Yeah, you know, shouldn't be there. You

831
00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:31.800
<v Speaker 2>had how many thinking back to the dot com era,

832
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.960
<v Speaker 2>of how many different websites came up and they'd get

833
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:36.119
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of VC money or something like that. No

834
00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:37.239
<v Speaker 2>business plans like.

835
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:38.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh this is dot com.

836
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.320
<v Speaker 2>Hey, yeah, it's a website. Let's do it, because that's

837
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:41.079
<v Speaker 2>the way to get round.

838
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:44.039
<v Speaker 1>My point is is that it's not because we had

839
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:48.440
<v Speaker 1>too much internet or too much software. My My point

840
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.519
<v Speaker 1>is is that eventually people figured out that they weren't

841
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:57.639
<v Speaker 1>getting the ROI and they stopped or right. The other

842
00:42:57.760 --> 00:43:00.440
<v Speaker 1>part of it was was that the economy would slow down,

843
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:03.599
<v Speaker 1>because it does that periodically, and then people start looking

844
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:07.119
<v Speaker 1>at Okay, well what do I actually need and then

845
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:11.760
<v Speaker 1>they cut the rest. But I think it's driven more

846
00:43:11.880 --> 00:43:14.280
<v Speaker 1>by what what I what I can pay for, as

847
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.880
<v Speaker 1>opposed to I have too much software development going on,

848
00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:20.599
<v Speaker 1>or I have too many things here in my warehouse.

849
00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:28.199
<v Speaker 2>Right, so right, yeah, I mean, you know, going back

850
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:29.760
<v Speaker 2>to the boot camps, what I was saying, you know,

851
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:32.559
<v Speaker 2>there was too much there's you know, it's just you know,

852
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:34.199
<v Speaker 2>get him out the door, get him at the door.

853
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:35.960
<v Speaker 2>Whether or not they're really good for me is to

854
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:38.360
<v Speaker 2>be seen. And then you start to realize, okay, there's

855
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:41.039
<v Speaker 2>no room for all this, or we actually need qualified people,

856
00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:43.239
<v Speaker 2>and so you know there's a slow down. All the

857
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:46.159
<v Speaker 2>fat gets trimmed and yep, you know that's how it works.

858
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I think that was really I think that

859
00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:51.760
<v Speaker 1>was more of a supply and demand issue just that

860
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.440
<v Speaker 1>not necessarily on the why people are or aren't hiring

861
00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:58.960
<v Speaker 1>boot camp grads, but on the other end, that's why

862
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:03.559
<v Speaker 1>the boot camps is because there wasn't enough demand to

863
00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:07.960
<v Speaker 1>soak up all the supply yep, And so people were

864
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:12.000
<v Speaker 1>graduating from boot camps. And then word kind of started

865
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:13.800
<v Speaker 1>to get around, Hey, you go through the boot camp,

866
00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:16.239
<v Speaker 1>you spend twelve grand and you still don't have a job.

867
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so yeah, those those weren't cheap. I remember I

868
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.920
<v Speaker 2>looked years ago. I was looking into one. It was

869
00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:29.559
<v Speaker 2>a boot camp that would have been I think it

870
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:33.719
<v Speaker 2>was on Microsoft Development stuff if I remember it. And

871
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:35.760
<v Speaker 2>I was seriously consider it because I was looking at,

872
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:39.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, just to educate myself, get something maybe more

873
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.679
<v Speaker 2>formal and just self education. But I was like blown

874
00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:44.480
<v Speaker 2>away by how much it would cost, how much time

875
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:46.119
<v Speaker 2>it would take, because like, yeah, I can't take time

876
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:48.360
<v Speaker 2>off from an actual job and do this full time

877
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:49.960
<v Speaker 2>and got to support a family.

878
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.000
<v Speaker 1>You know. So yeah, when my oldest was in high school,

879
00:44:53.079 --> 00:44:56.039
<v Speaker 1>I was looking at possibly because he was like, I

880
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.119
<v Speaker 1>want to be video game developer, blah blah blah, blah,

881
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:00.400
<v Speaker 1>And I was like, well, maybe I'll just put you

882
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:02.960
<v Speaker 1>through a programming boot camp, even if it's not game development, right,

883
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.480
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's React or something. Right, you can get enough

884
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:10.239
<v Speaker 1>programming experience to where then you can say, Okay, now

885
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:11.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to take the skills that I have in

886
00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:13.360
<v Speaker 1>this area and I'm going to apply a lot of

887
00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:17.039
<v Speaker 1>them over here to game development. But I mean the

888
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 1>costs and everything, we're just you know, yeah, a lot

889
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.639
<v Speaker 1>of money. But on the other end, I'm also and

890
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:27.800
<v Speaker 1>I've talked to a whole bunch of people that are

891
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:31.800
<v Speaker 1>now not convinced that college is necessarily the way to

892
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:35.159
<v Speaker 1>go either. And so I don't know for.

893
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:38.000
<v Speaker 2>Web development, I mean web development or just development in general.

894
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:41.039
<v Speaker 1>Well not just development, but a lot of other fields too.

895
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean the computer science stuff.

896
00:45:46.360 --> 00:45:48.880
<v Speaker 1>I've heard a lot of people who can't.

897
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 2>But well, even then, a lot of the stuff you

898
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.679
<v Speaker 2>studying there is an applicable, you know, to day to

899
00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:58.519
<v Speaker 2>day web development. It's a lot of old schools stuff.

900
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:01.559
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I know, so the environment I work

901
00:46:01.639 --> 00:46:06.320
<v Speaker 2>in is is networking, you know, internet networking type of stuff,

902
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:10.079
<v Speaker 2>and we deal a lot with the university community and

903
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:12.679
<v Speaker 2>of a number of our employees have come from universities

904
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:15.280
<v Speaker 2>and they went through CIS degrees, but a lot of

905
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 2>what they teach their is applicable to what they're doing

906
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:20.000
<v Speaker 2>in terms of networking hardware and software and stuff like that.

907
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.480
<v Speaker 1>Right, And you know a lot of your performance OfTI

908
00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:27.480
<v Speaker 1>and algorithms and that all plays in space.

909
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but a lot of that doesn't necessarily play in

910
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:33.320
<v Speaker 2>in you know, at least in the web dev world.

911
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:39.239
<v Speaker 2>And and so that's why you know it doesn't you know,

912
00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:40.599
<v Speaker 2>it used to be you went to college just to

913
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:42.719
<v Speaker 2>say I got to college degree. But at the same time,

914
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:46.719
<v Speaker 2>you want your college to be somewhat you know, give

915
00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:50.320
<v Speaker 2>you tools to actually get a job and performing, you know,

916
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:51.360
<v Speaker 2>in the industry.

917
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:52.840
<v Speaker 1>That's why you're going.

918
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:57.079
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I mean there's there's a number of I mean,

919
00:46:57.119 --> 00:46:58.239
<v Speaker 2>I can think off the top of my head, a

920
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:01.119
<v Speaker 2>number of you know, web developers for developers that never

921
00:47:01.239 --> 00:47:02.679
<v Speaker 2>had any type of college to agree with that, But

922
00:47:02.719 --> 00:47:04.800
<v Speaker 2>they're very good at what they did, and you know,

923
00:47:05.119 --> 00:47:07.719
<v Speaker 2>like me, they're self taught. You know, they learned on

924
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:12.400
<v Speaker 2>their own just by doing and doing projects and working

925
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:15.639
<v Speaker 2>and being a junior for a while, right and working

926
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:17.519
<v Speaker 2>up to you got the experience to be a senior.

927
00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:21.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, I have a degree in computer engineering, and in

928
00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:23.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot of ways, I still consider myself self taught.

929
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:28.719
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I graduated, I got a job working, and

930
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I wound up running the tech support team at the

931
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:34.559
<v Speaker 1>company I was working at the startup, and then I

932
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:36.800
<v Speaker 1>just kind of picked up some other stuff and was

933
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:40.199
<v Speaker 1>scrappy working on it in rails, and that's how I

934
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:43.400
<v Speaker 1>got started. And so you know, I kind of skunk

935
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:48.039
<v Speaker 1>works my way into into rails and into programming, even

936
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:50.119
<v Speaker 1>though I had learned a lot of programming stuff and

937
00:47:50.199 --> 00:47:53.480
<v Speaker 1>taking classes at the university. I don't think you really

938
00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:56.960
<v Speaker 1>get a feel for what software development really looks and

939
00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:59.800
<v Speaker 1>feels like until you get out there in the real

940
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:02.920
<v Speaker 1>world world, and then you're going, yep, oh, these are

941
00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.480
<v Speaker 1>the things I care about, These are the things that matter,

942
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:07.280
<v Speaker 1>These are the things that are going to move the needle,

943
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:10.639
<v Speaker 1>and you know, and so then you wind up, Yeah,

944
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:13.119
<v Speaker 1>you wind up self teaching anyway to a certain level.

945
00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Everybody does.

946
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, there's I mean, and that's true with

947
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.760
<v Speaker 2>any industry or any topic. You know, you can learn

948
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.320
<v Speaker 2>about it and do test projects and stuff like that

949
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:29.199
<v Speaker 2>in school, but once you it's not until you get

950
00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:32.199
<v Speaker 2>in the real world and realize that. You know, there's

951
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:34.079
<v Speaker 2>so many different things to work with with any type

952
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.960
<v Speaker 2>of software platform, whether you're an agency who's creating, you know,

953
00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:40.559
<v Speaker 2>websites for customers, or if you're on the product side,

954
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:42.440
<v Speaker 2>where you have a product that you've built and you

955
00:48:42.599 --> 00:48:46.880
<v Speaker 2>maintain and customers pay you to use. There's so much

956
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:50.159
<v Speaker 2>stuff that, whether it's project management stuff, whether it's stay

957
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.880
<v Speaker 2>to day infrastructure stuff, that you're just not going to

958
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.719
<v Speaker 2>see in an educational environment unless you get somebody maybe

959
00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:58.280
<v Speaker 2>who's been out in the real world and done this

960
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:00.960
<v Speaker 2>stuff and then comes back in and teaches and says,

961
00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:02.559
<v Speaker 2>he this is what it's really like. Those are the

962
00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:03.239
<v Speaker 2>best teachers.

963
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:04.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's all right.

964
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:05.800
<v Speaker 2>I take that back to some of the best.

965
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.960
<v Speaker 1>I had a professor at I had a couple of

966
00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:13.920
<v Speaker 1>professors at BYU that were they were those guys, right,

967
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:18.679
<v Speaker 1>And so one of them had written basically a variant

968
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:21.119
<v Speaker 1>of DOS called p DOS because his name was Paul.

969
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.559
<v Speaker 1>It was actually my neighbor growing up too. He was

970
00:49:23.639 --> 00:49:27.000
<v Speaker 1>my bishop and my lds ward at church. P Dos

971
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:29.800
<v Speaker 1>because his name was Paul. And then one of the

972
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.280
<v Speaker 1>other guys and he was the one that taught us about,

973
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, here's how development teams work and stuff like that,

974
00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:37.840
<v Speaker 1>because he'd worked in the industry too, and so he

975
00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:41.920
<v Speaker 1>had a class that was basically, hey, here's your reality check, right,

976
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:46.480
<v Speaker 1>here's here's how this stuff actually works. P dos.

977
00:49:46.599 --> 00:49:48.679
<v Speaker 2>It reminds me of Tanner Lindley and tan say, yeah,

978
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:51.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, we just talked to him a few weeks ago.

979
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:59.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Anyway, it's it's it's interesting stuff for sure. Yeah,

980
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:00.840
<v Speaker 1>I don't I know that you pick a lot of

981
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:04.519
<v Speaker 1>that up as you go. Anyway, it's been about an hour.

982
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:06.159
<v Speaker 1>It's funny because we were going to talk about a

983
00:50:06.199 --> 00:50:08.000
<v Speaker 1>couple of topics and we just talked about this one.

984
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:09.880
<v Speaker 1>But I'm hoping that this kind of gives some people

985
00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:12.079
<v Speaker 1>some ideas. I don't know if you have any actionable

986
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:17.000
<v Speaker 1>stuff you want to give people on this in terms

987
00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:20.639
<v Speaker 1>in terms of following at finding a job or hiring

988
00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:21.760
<v Speaker 1>or anything like that.

989
00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:25.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, the one thing I always hear, and this

990
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:28.159
<v Speaker 2>is probably a little more prevalent in the design world

991
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:31.239
<v Speaker 2>than it is the coding world, being able to show

992
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:34.000
<v Speaker 2>something you've actually done versus saying what you can do.

993
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:37.159
<v Speaker 2>You know, for a design person, front end, you know

994
00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:39.719
<v Speaker 2>them er whatever term you want to use, the ones

995
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:42.119
<v Speaker 2>that make it look really good. I'm a portfolio, and

996
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.559
<v Speaker 2>a really good portfolio is probably something you want to have,

997
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:50.719
<v Speaker 2>you know. Examples, when I was going through my development interviews,

998
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:54.079
<v Speaker 2>I had very specific projects that I could talk about,

999
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:56.920
<v Speaker 2>things that I had done, whether it was and some

1000
00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:00.559
<v Speaker 2>of them were ones where I could straight that the

1001
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:05.519
<v Speaker 2>software I had generated had saved incredible amounts of time

1002
00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:07.079
<v Speaker 2>for the end users, you know, because that's what they

1003
00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:09.119
<v Speaker 2>end up They want to be more efficient. That's the

1004
00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:10.559
<v Speaker 2>whole point of having a lot of the tools that

1005
00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:12.079
<v Speaker 2>I have anyways to be able to do your job

1006
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:14.760
<v Speaker 2>more efficiently. And so I had projects where I could say,

1007
00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:21.000
<v Speaker 2>for instance, doing estimation for building certain types of industrial projects,

1008
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I had taken what I had done had helped a

1009
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.880
<v Speaker 2>company go from a three day estimation with crazy Excel

1010
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:32.840
<v Speaker 2>spreadsheets to three hours right, or an application I used

1011
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:36.199
<v Speaker 2>created with view and in nursery and Larravel helped a

1012
00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:41.400
<v Speaker 2>nonprofit organization go from literally multiple volunteers manual work in

1013
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:45.239
<v Speaker 2>terms of managing membership to being almost completely automated and

1014
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:48.159
<v Speaker 2>saving just hundreds of hours of volunteer time. So the

1015
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:51.840
<v Speaker 2>point of what I'm saying is just being able to demonstrate, yes,

1016
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:54.559
<v Speaker 2>using these tools, this is what I have done, and

1017
00:51:54.639 --> 00:52:01.360
<v Speaker 2>this is how effective it's been in and that because

1018
00:52:01.599 --> 00:52:04.920
<v Speaker 2>what you want to convey to them, you know, and

1019
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:08.280
<v Speaker 2>adders that I always use is that I want to

1020
00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:11.519
<v Speaker 2>make my job is to make my boss's job easier. Yeah,

1021
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:13.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, they don't have to worry about me. They

1022
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:15.400
<v Speaker 2>know that I can jump in and do the job

1023
00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:18.800
<v Speaker 2>and get it done right, and so I want to demonstrate.

1024
00:52:18.920 --> 00:52:20.920
<v Speaker 2>And this is the same in the fire service as well.

1025
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:23.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, you want to demonstrate that you can come

1026
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:24.960
<v Speaker 2>in and fit in and jump in and do the

1027
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:27.320
<v Speaker 2>job and you can rely on to do it. So

1028
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:32.320
<v Speaker 2>that's probably the best advice you know that that I

1029
00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:35.719
<v Speaker 2>can I would give to somebody who's who's job hunting.

1030
00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:39.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I agree a lot of that. You know, you're

1031
00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:42.360
<v Speaker 1>talking about what you've actually done. If if you don't

1032
00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:44.840
<v Speaker 1>have that kind of work experience, then start a side

1033
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:49.320
<v Speaker 1>project and go work on that. Yep, exactly, And I

1034
00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:52.119
<v Speaker 1>highly highly recommend that. The other thing that I recommend

1035
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:54.559
<v Speaker 1>is that you know, go out into the community, you know,

1036
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:57.519
<v Speaker 1>local meetups, find a conference to attend something like that,

1037
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:01.639
<v Speaker 1>and just you know, stay up breast of what people

1038
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:05.000
<v Speaker 1>are working on learning putting out there so that you

1039
00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:08.480
<v Speaker 1>know the kinds of things that you maybe need to demonstrate,

1040
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.559
<v Speaker 1>so that you are working on things that are relevant

1041
00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:12.400
<v Speaker 1>to what people are doing.

1042
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:20.840
<v Speaker 2>So, yeah, anybody can talk about what you could do

1043
00:53:21.639 --> 00:53:23.480
<v Speaker 2>being able to talk about this is what I did do.

1044
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:25.800
<v Speaker 2>Is it's going to win every time?

1045
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, well, let's go ahead and do picks

1046
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.639
<v Speaker 1>and then wrap up. Do you want to go first?

1047
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:35.760
<v Speaker 2>Sure, So before I get to the high point of

1048
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:39.159
<v Speaker 2>every episode, which is the dad jokes of the week,

1049
00:53:39.320 --> 00:53:41.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do I'll do an unpicked sort of

1050
00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:44.880
<v Speaker 2>and you'll understand it in a minute. So I've been

1051
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:47.159
<v Speaker 2>over the past few months. I've done a decent amount

1052
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.559
<v Speaker 2>of flying, and so what I usually like to do,

1053
00:53:50.599 --> 00:53:52.760
<v Speaker 2>at least on Alaska is hook on my computer, the

1054
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:54.639
<v Speaker 2>Wi Fi and they have a bunch of movies that

1055
00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:57.719
<v Speaker 2>you can watch, and so I've watched some pretty good

1056
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:02.159
<v Speaker 2>movies over the time time. You know, there's like One Life,

1057
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:04.280
<v Speaker 2>which is what I talked about, the Anthony Hopkins ones

1058
00:54:04.280 --> 00:54:08.119
<v Speaker 2>about Nicholas Winton and the Accountant. I liked a lot

1059
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:11.639
<v Speaker 2>with Ben Affleck, but the unpick I picked one is like,

1060
00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:13.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, I've heard about this movie and I'm gonna

1061
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:16.519
<v Speaker 2>watch it, and it's an old one of I think

1062
00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:19.159
<v Speaker 2>it's one of Jackie Chan's first movies. And it's called

1063
00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Rumble in the bron Rumble in the Bronx because I've

1064
00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:23.360
<v Speaker 2>seen some of the other ones. So if you think

1065
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:25.480
<v Speaker 2>some of the more one once he's more well known for,

1066
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:29.079
<v Speaker 2>like Rush Hour with Chris Tucker, and I can remember

1067
00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:30.559
<v Speaker 2>one of the first ones I saw of his in

1068
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:34.800
<v Speaker 2>the theater was with Owen Wilson as Shanghai Knia had

1069
00:54:34.920 --> 00:54:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Lucy Lou. There's one scene in there that had me

1070
00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.719
<v Speaker 2>just rolling the eyes laughing so hard while we were

1071
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:42.360
<v Speaker 2>in the theater and me and this other lady were

1072
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:44.559
<v Speaker 2>just dying laughing at this one scene where he wakes

1073
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:46.440
<v Speaker 2>up in this teepee. You got to see it to

1074
00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:48.840
<v Speaker 2>understand it so funny. But I went back and watched

1075
00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:51.039
<v Speaker 2>this one. This had to be one of the worst

1076
00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:53.840
<v Speaker 2>movies I've ever seen it.

1077
00:54:54.679 --> 00:54:56.960
<v Speaker 1>It was so bad. It had to be.

1078
00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:58.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't I can't remember what year it is.

1079
00:54:58.239 --> 00:54:58.880
<v Speaker 1>I have to look it up.

1080
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.719
<v Speaker 2>It's got to be early and there's a decent amount

1081
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:04.679
<v Speaker 2>of martial arts center, but just the editing, the plot line,

1082
00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:09.480
<v Speaker 2>it's just so poorly done. And the thing that amazed

1083
00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:12.559
<v Speaker 2>me about it is the complete amount of destruction of

1084
00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:15.519
<v Speaker 2>property that happens in this movie, whether it's buildings, whether

1085
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:18.519
<v Speaker 2>it's vehicles, whether it's boats. You know, in the end,

1086
00:55:18.639 --> 00:55:22.199
<v Speaker 2>there's this whole jet boat is the kind that have

1087
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.800
<v Speaker 2>the big use inflatable Rubbert. You know, they're driving around

1088
00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:28.079
<v Speaker 2>New York on the harbors for tours and stuff, and

1089
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:30.039
<v Speaker 2>he's driving it on the beach and he's driving on

1090
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:32.360
<v Speaker 2>those golf course and running over the bad guy at

1091
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:36.440
<v Speaker 2>the very end, and I was like, I forced myself

1092
00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:37.599
<v Speaker 2>to watch. At the end, I was like, all right,

1093
00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:39.000
<v Speaker 2>I got this far, I might as well watch it

1094
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:41.559
<v Speaker 2>to the end. But if you want to see, you know,

1095
00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:45.159
<v Speaker 2>something that's funny just because it's made so badly, then

1096
00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Rumble in the Bronx is the one to see. For sure.

1097
00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:48.079
<v Speaker 1>I've heard of it.

1098
00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:50.480
<v Speaker 2>I got, I watched the end, and I got back.

1099
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:52.480
<v Speaker 2>After I was done, I thought, that's an hour and

1100
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:54.079
<v Speaker 2>a half of my life. I'm never going to get back.

1101
00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:56.360
<v Speaker 2>But I was sitting stuck on a plane, so it

1102
00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:57.719
<v Speaker 2>wasn't like I was going to be doing a lot

1103
00:55:57.760 --> 00:55:59.480
<v Speaker 2>of other stuff anyway, Right.

1104
00:56:00.440 --> 00:56:00.519
<v Speaker 1>So.

1105
00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Dad jokes of the week. So recently, you know I

1106
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:10.960
<v Speaker 2>like to use I've been using password managers, like one

1107
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:12.920
<v Speaker 2>password is one we use. Now use it at work too,

1108
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:16.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's really great. But before that changed all my

1109
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:20.840
<v Speaker 2>passwords to be the word incorrect. So now when I

1110
00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:22.840
<v Speaker 2>type in the wrong password, the computer tells me that

1111
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:30.039
<v Speaker 2>my password is incorrect. Right, So most people know that

1112
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:34.280
<v Speaker 2>scuba right, like scuba diving is an acronym for self

1113
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:39.760
<v Speaker 2>contained underwater breathing apparatus. TUBA is also an acronym that

1114
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:42.199
<v Speaker 2>stands for terrible underwater breathing apparatus.

1115
00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:44.119
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1116
00:56:46.400 --> 00:56:51.840
<v Speaker 2>And then, finally, speaking of startups, I recently opened a

1117
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:56.719
<v Speaker 2>company selling trampolines that are disguised as prayer mats. Profits

1118
00:56:56.760 --> 00:57:03.000
<v Speaker 2>are going through the roof. That's pr pH et Anyway,

1119
00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:04.519
<v Speaker 2>those are the dad jokes of the week.

1120
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:10.239
<v Speaker 1>Awesome, all right, I've got some picks. I usually do

1121
00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:14.519
<v Speaker 1>a board game pick, but I'm just not my brain's

1122
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:16.199
<v Speaker 1>not going there right now. I'm trying to think what

1123
00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:26.119
<v Speaker 1>I've played lately that I don't know. I guess I'll

1124
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:32.119
<v Speaker 1>pick Hanabi. I've probably picked this before. It's been quite

1125
00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:35.719
<v Speaker 1>a long time, but this game has been around forever.

1126
00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:42.360
<v Speaker 1>I think hanabi means fireworks in Japanese. And anyway, you

1127
00:57:42.519 --> 00:57:45.760
<v Speaker 1>play your cards. You play a hand of cards, and

1128
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:50.199
<v Speaker 1>you have your cards facing away from you, and so

1129
00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:53.079
<v Speaker 1>then you can give clues to the other players because

1130
00:57:53.079 --> 00:57:54.920
<v Speaker 1>they can all see your cards. So when it's your turn,

1131
00:57:55.800 --> 00:57:57.840
<v Speaker 1>you can you can give a clue and you can

1132
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:01.119
<v Speaker 1>say you have you know, two whites, and so then

1133
00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:02.880
<v Speaker 1>you tell them which ones are white, or you have

1134
00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:05.119
<v Speaker 1>two fours, and so you can tell them which ones

1135
00:58:05.119 --> 00:58:08.800
<v Speaker 1>are fours. Right, And you're trying to get five stacks

1136
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:12.880
<v Speaker 1>of cards that are all the same color, starting at

1137
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:15.840
<v Speaker 1>one and going up to five, and I think there

1138
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:19.239
<v Speaker 1>are three ones, two of each of two, three and

1139
00:58:19.400 --> 00:58:21.880
<v Speaker 1>four and then one five of each color. And you

1140
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:24.719
<v Speaker 1>can you can on your room you can clue somebody else,

1141
00:58:25.079 --> 00:58:28.320
<v Speaker 1>and I believe you use little chips to indicate you

1142
00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:30.880
<v Speaker 1>know how close you are to blowing up, or you

1143
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.400
<v Speaker 1>can get rid of a card out of your hand,

1144
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:36.280
<v Speaker 1>and if you get rid of the five, you lose

1145
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:42.159
<v Speaker 1>because you can't. Right. So anyway, fun game. It's really simple,

1146
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.280
<v Speaker 1>and so if you're looking for a fun game that

1147
00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:47.119
<v Speaker 1>you can play with folks. That's a little bit of

1148
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:48.559
<v Speaker 1>a thinker because you have to keep track of what

1149
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:50.559
<v Speaker 1>your cards are and I usually wind up turning them

1150
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:52.599
<v Speaker 1>different ways or things like that, so I know which

1151
00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:55.519
<v Speaker 1>ones are which. It's a fun game. So Hanabi and

1152
00:58:55.639 --> 00:58:58.360
<v Speaker 1>then my wife and I went to the movies yesterday

1153
00:58:58.639 --> 00:59:00.519
<v Speaker 1>and we went and saw a movie called Truth and

1154
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Treason is put out by Angel Studios.

1155
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:07.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and they got some good stuff. Yeah.

1156
00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:14.480
<v Speaker 1>So it's about a young man who his friend who's

1157
00:59:14.519 --> 00:59:19.480
<v Speaker 1>a Jew, gets picked up by the SS and you know,

1158
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:23.159
<v Speaker 1>oh so it's World War it's disappeared, and it's interesting

1159
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:25.719
<v Speaker 1>because like all the boys in it, they're all from

1160
00:59:26.199 --> 00:59:29.000
<v Speaker 1>a Latter Day Saint congregation, So, you know, a little

1161
00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:31.320
<v Speaker 1>bit of something that I identify with there. But it's

1162
00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:32.920
<v Speaker 1>not a major part of the story. So if you

1163
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:35.400
<v Speaker 1>don't understand LDS culture, you'll still get it. Just find

1164
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:40.519
<v Speaker 1>what's going on in the the movie. But anyway, so

1165
00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:44.119
<v Speaker 1>he kind of gets radicalized, so to speak, against the

1166
00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:48.239
<v Speaker 1>Nazi government, and so he starts putting flyers out all

1167
00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:52.119
<v Speaker 1>over Hamburg talking about the evils of the Nazi regime.

1168
00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:57.000
<v Speaker 1>And so it's kind of his story of him doing

1169
00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:01.639
<v Speaker 1>this and trying not to get caught and what happens there.

1170
01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:04.480
<v Speaker 1>I won't spoil it. It's you could probably guess how

1171
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:08.320
<v Speaker 1>it goes. But anyway, it's just interesting because the kind

1172
01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:13.119
<v Speaker 1>of major point was you have to stand up for truth, right,

1173
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:18.320
<v Speaker 1>even if it costs you your life. And so anyway,

1174
01:00:18.559 --> 01:00:23.639
<v Speaker 1>terrific message, fascinating story. And yeah, at the end of

1175
01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:26.559
<v Speaker 1>the movie, right, they have kind of the picture of

1176
01:00:26.599 --> 01:00:28.639
<v Speaker 1>the actor and then the picture of the actual person,

1177
01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:31.159
<v Speaker 1>and this person was blah blahlah, don't know, this is

1178
01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:35.119
<v Speaker 1>what happened to these people. And uh, it's interesting because

1179
01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:40.599
<v Speaker 1>the main character was the youngest person who was convicted

1180
01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:45.559
<v Speaker 1>of trees and all this stuff against the Nazis. So anyway, yeah,

1181
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:47.800
<v Speaker 1>and it turns out his friend in the captions at

1182
01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:49.440
<v Speaker 1>the end you find out his friend was actually taken

1183
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:51.239
<v Speaker 1>to Auschwitz and died there.

1184
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:57.599
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, now, have you seen speaking of Angel Studios,

1185
01:00:57.639 --> 01:00:59.159
<v Speaker 2>have you seen The Last Road?

1186
01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:02.079
<v Speaker 1>Yes? Pretty much?

1187
01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:04.760
<v Speaker 2>Pretty I love Neil mcgonnough, Yeah, I love nearly really good.

1188
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.320
<v Speaker 2>He's done some really good stuff.

1189
01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:09.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's boy. That one is uh, how do I

1190
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:13.920
<v Speaker 1>put it? Like? It is just an intense movie. It's

1191
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:18.519
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, When I say that, I don't mean like,

1192
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:20.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, because you think like the action flicks, right,

1193
01:01:20.840 --> 01:01:23.599
<v Speaker 1>and so you know somebody's always running into danger blah

1194
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:25.760
<v Speaker 1>blah blah. It's not that kind of intense. I mean

1195
01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:28.440
<v Speaker 1>you're you're kind of scared for Neil McDonough's character because

1196
01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:32.119
<v Speaker 1>he's old and he's writing video. Right, It's like, it's

1197
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:35.280
<v Speaker 1>like this guy's going to kill hold on.

1198
01:01:35.400 --> 01:01:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Let's uh, let's define old here. He's if I read

1199
01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:40.840
<v Speaker 2>the movie description, he's fifty, so.

1200
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:45.199
<v Speaker 1>He's relatively old to be writing a relatively old thank you.

1201
01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Let's clarify that.

1202
01:01:46.519 --> 01:01:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you right, he's he's older than I am, but

1203
01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:56.199
<v Speaker 1>you know he's old enough to where writing in a rodeo.

1204
01:01:56.320 --> 01:02:00.119
<v Speaker 1>You're just like, right, and the characters had like he

1205
01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:03.639
<v Speaker 1>broke his back and that's why he wasn't writing rodeo, right,

1206
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:06.400
<v Speaker 1>and so it's like you're going to kill yourself doing this.

1207
01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:12.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well it was it his son or something grandson.

1208
01:02:11.800 --> 01:02:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Of a brain tumor. And so he's he's writing in

1209
01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:16.599
<v Speaker 1>the rodeo to try and get the money he needs

1210
01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:19.440
<v Speaker 1>to pay for the prize money first for the true treatment.

1211
01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:23.039
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, it's a terrific movie. I really really liked it.

1212
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:26.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Angel Studios they have some I saw an interview

1213
01:02:26.679 --> 01:02:29.639
<v Speaker 2>with one of those people on Mike Mike row interview

1214
01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:32.760
<v Speaker 2>on his podcast. And do you talk about some of

1215
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:36.400
<v Speaker 2>the movies that they've done. Yeah, I think if I

1216
01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:38.400
<v Speaker 2>remember correctly, did they Were they the same people that

1217
01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:42.119
<v Speaker 2>didn't Napoleon Dynamite? Know? No, that was a different group.

1218
01:02:42.159 --> 01:02:45.599
<v Speaker 1>Okay, If it was the same people Napoleon Dynamite was

1219
01:02:45.679 --> 01:02:48.480
<v Speaker 1>before Angel Studios? Was Angel there right right?

1220
01:02:48.559 --> 01:02:50.599
<v Speaker 2>Right? But it's the same people not in that Angel Studio,

1221
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:54.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Yeah, them, and they also did maybe

1222
01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:56.519
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking another group because that same group also did

1223
01:02:56.559 --> 01:02:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the Pooperie commercials, which to this day are some of

1224
01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:00.920
<v Speaker 2>the best, most playerousmmercials I've ever seen.

1225
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:05.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the Harmon Brothers. Did I think the Poopoi commercials?

1226
01:03:05.800 --> 01:03:06.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that might be who it was.

1227
01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:10.760
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know. It's funny because both the Harmon

1228
01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Brothers and and Angel Studios or both they're both Utah companies.

1229
01:03:19.440 --> 01:03:21.239
<v Speaker 1>They're both here right right exactly.

1230
01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:22.599
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's why I'm getting mixed up.

1231
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.679
<v Speaker 1>And I don't know if they're closely connected or not.

1232
01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:33.079
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, yeah, I don't know for sure what if

1233
01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:36.360
<v Speaker 1>Napoleon Dynamite was produced by them or not, or if

1234
01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:37.159
<v Speaker 1>it was somebody else.

1235
01:03:37.239 --> 01:03:40.800
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, all those Utah people they look like, Yeah,

1236
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:44.559
<v Speaker 2>but that that was where John Header got his big start.

1237
01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:51.360
<v Speaker 1>But and it has a lot of the Utah Idaho

1238
01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:54.920
<v Speaker 1>culture stuff in it, Like it's it's funny anyway, but

1239
01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:58.360
<v Speaker 1>if you've lived here for a long time, you're just

1240
01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:00.719
<v Speaker 1>like there's a lot of inside culture her stuff in it.

1241
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:06.519
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, my son, he's fourteen, and he just saw

1242
01:04:06.559 --> 01:04:10.440
<v Speaker 2>a Napoleon Dynamite like this past week and he hadn't

1243
01:04:10.480 --> 01:04:12.280
<v Speaker 2>seen it before. And I was like, I told him

1244
01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:16.079
<v Speaker 2>I remember a vote for Pedro, and apparently he wants

1245
01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:17.800
<v Speaker 2>He's fourteen, and my wife still wants to go out

1246
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:20.960
<v Speaker 2>for Halloween, but he wants to go Napoleon's brother, the

1247
01:04:21.039 --> 01:04:24.119
<v Speaker 2>one that wants to be the pro wrestler. That's a

1248
01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:26.199
<v Speaker 2>Halloween costume. So I'm not sure I was going to

1249
01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:28.679
<v Speaker 2>pull that off, but looking forward to that.

1250
01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:32.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Wikipedia says that it was Jared Hess and John

1251
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Header and they were both BYU.

1252
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<v Speaker 2>Shams, Right I remember that much?

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<v Speaker 1>They yeah? So so alrighty anyway, so yeah, so those

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<v Speaker 1>are my picks I, we'll go ahead and wrap it

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<v Speaker 1>up until next time folks max out.