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Speaker 9: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 9: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 9: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 9: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 9: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 9: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 10: Good evening with details about grim and grizzly fatalities. This
Speaker 10: history of California's are Caine Deaths encompasses the murders and
Speaker 10: accidents that at one time shocked the West Coast. The
Speaker 10: stories of hangings, gun accidents, suicides, crashes, and overdoses of
Speaker 10: both the famous and obscure offer a bizarre, if sometimes
Speaker 10: perverse glimpse into the Golden State's strange past, including frightening
Speaker 10: murder tales like the rape, torture and child murder in
Speaker 10: the Ape Boy, a doctor slaughters his family and death
Speaker 10: in Davis House, the unsolved savage murder of an entire
Speaker 10: family in the Ketty Murders, and a young female psychopath
Speaker 10: in Penny for Her Thoughts. The book that we are
Speaker 10: featuring this evening is Death in California The bizarre, freakish,
Speaker 10: and just curious ways people die in the Golden State
Speaker 10: with my special guest, journalist and author David Colchick. Welcome
Speaker 10: back to the program, and thank you for agreeing this interview.
Speaker 10: David Colchick, Hey, thanks for having me back. Thank you
Speaker 10: very much. It wasn't so long ago we spoke to
Speaker 10: and so thank you for pinch hitting today for this interview.
Speaker 10: So thank you very much. Let's dive right into this.
Speaker 10: What I find fascinating with this retro crime here historic
Speaker 10: true crime is all the things I didn't know about
Speaker 10: strange true crime history. So we won't be talking about
Speaker 10: too many stories, but we'll feature about just like in
Speaker 10: the introduction, we'll feature about five or six stories or
Speaker 10: really give people an idea of what kind of book
Speaker 10: this is and some of the stories that are contained
Speaker 10: in But for our audience and I think for anybody
Speaker 10: that might buy this book to find it fascinating. Your
Speaker 10: introduction and you talk about the headlines have always been
Speaker 10: that murder in California. But tell us about the state
Speaker 10: of before there was a really good reason to come
Speaker 10: to California. The people that were there first will say,
Speaker 10: in this country we call them Aboriginals or first nations.
Speaker 10: Talk about how for those first people, murder was pretty
Speaker 10: foreign concept to them and why.
Speaker 11: Yeah, the Aboriginies that lived in California before the invasion
Speaker 11: of the Europeans, they lived at the Garden of Eden.
Speaker 11: They traded with each other, and they basically had their
Speaker 11: villages along the major rivers that flow through the valleys.
Speaker 11: And of course they're on the coast and things like that,
Speaker 11: but the being population was in the valleys of the
Speaker 11: Sacramento of the San Joaquin and along the rivers that
Speaker 11: flow into those two rivers that it's named after. And
Speaker 11: they had villages about every couple miles. Actually, I lived
Speaker 11: right by one that used to be one of the
Speaker 11: largest ones in California. They even had restaurants. They found
Speaker 11: evidence that there were restaurants there, which I find just fascinating.
Speaker 11: But they did not murder each other, and if they did,
Speaker 11: it was it was a very big deal. They basically
Speaker 11: lived in harmony and traded and married up and down
Speaker 11: the rivers into San Francisco Bay. They've found maybe one
Speaker 11: hundred and fifty miles inland seashells that were from the
Speaker 11: San Francisco Bay. So they had this wide ranging trading area.
Speaker 11: And then right around when Carson came through, they all
Speaker 11: caught small pox and measles and ninety percent of them died.
Speaker 11: So by the time the gold Rush happened, the Aborigines
Speaker 11: that lived here, it was kind of like Mad Max,
Speaker 11: where you know, they were just the stragglers, the survivors
Speaker 11: of a great disaster.
Speaker 10: I think one of the most profound things was, and
Speaker 10: I want to expand upon what type of again might
Speaker 10: sound idealistic, but what kind of We'll say simple, it
Speaker 10: wasn't very much population at that time, but we're still
Speaker 10: a society, definitely a distinct society. But what was the
Speaker 10: punishment for something like murder? And why was that punishment
Speaker 10: in that society? Why did that suffice.
Speaker 11: So what did they do?
Speaker 10: How did that work?
Speaker 11: Yeah, if someone did commit murder and they would be
Speaker 11: banished by their families in the village and all the
Speaker 11: other villages, and they were snubbed by all the other
Speaker 11: villages and tribes and weren't getting around really fast, and
Speaker 11: they would be outcasts in their own societies. They would
Speaker 11: they would be just complete losers. They'd be out of
Speaker 11: the loop. They wouldn't They would be banished from their families,
Speaker 11: and that was everything to them. And a lot of
Speaker 11: times if they did, you know, let's say it was
Speaker 11: accidental and someone got murdered, then the village would work
Speaker 11: out a deal with the other village where it happened,
Speaker 11: because it never happened in the same village. There was
Speaker 11: never murders within their village. Ever, if they were goofing
Speaker 11: around with another tribe, they would they would have to
Speaker 11: the person that murdered would be forced to be their
Speaker 11: servant at that village for whatever amount of years they arranged. Yeah,
Speaker 11: so once they did their certain sentence, that everything would
Speaker 11: be forgiven.
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's very interesting the juxtaposition that you present, even
Speaker 10: in the introduction and then your other book about murder
Speaker 10: in California as well, is that this society was unique
Speaker 10: in that, Again, I've never heard tell of anything like
Speaker 10: this where the society itself made sure or ensured that
Speaker 10: people wouldn't murder because there was nowhere else to go,
Speaker 10: unlike how our society is. As somebody is a deviant
Speaker 10: of society, they're put in a prison, but within the
Speaker 10: prison then they have a community, we'll say, And once
Speaker 10: they get out of prison, or even before, there's certainly
Speaker 10: a division. But in that primitive we'll say society, unbelievably,
Speaker 10: murder was a very very rare thing. Now you talk
Speaker 10: about the re olympetus for people coming to California and
Speaker 10: for all the and for people over the centuries or
Speaker 10: over the decades coming to California, and tell us what
Speaker 10: that reason is. And tell us about again about the
Speaker 10: headline about the murder in terms of murdering California and
Speaker 10: family members. Once these people had gone to California, they
Speaker 10: were looking at the newspapers. So tell us a little
Speaker 10: bit about that phenomena. Once California was a very popular
Speaker 10: place to go to.
Speaker 11: Well, even today, there's always a headline in a magazine
Speaker 11: or newspaper or internet site that says death in California,
Speaker 11: it seemed to be that's probably the most used headline ever.
Speaker 11: And you know, California, it's the sheer size of it is,
Speaker 11: you know, is just mind boggling. And with all the
Speaker 11: we have over one hundred mountain ranges California and forty
Speaker 11: five percent of the of the land in California is
Speaker 11: covered by forests. I think that's a lot of things
Speaker 11: that people don't think of, how forest died this area is.
Speaker 11: You know, people come here, they always come here to
Speaker 11: change their lives, to have a new opportunity. We've had
Speaker 11: gold rushes, We've had land rushes, We've had multiple land rushes.
Speaker 11: You know, if there's a bubble that's going to start,
Speaker 11: it's going to start here. Any fad, it's going to
Speaker 11: start here in California. This is this is where everything
Speaker 11: starts starts. And you know there's you can you can
Speaker 11: make a go at things in California if you if
Speaker 11: you really, you know, have a shot at it. You
Speaker 11: can you can really have a shot at at having
Speaker 11: something work out to your advantage living here.
Speaker 10: But you talk about really the gold Rush being the
Speaker 10: impetus for much more than just migrant migration in terms
Speaker 10: of a real impetus for murder. I mean, the incredible
Speaker 10: profits that were at least imagined and realized by some
Speaker 10: people was a real good impetus for murder suddenly being
Speaker 10: a lot more common and not rare at all.
Speaker 11: Well, yeah, anytime you have something of value, there's always
Speaker 11: going to be somebody there that's going to want to
Speaker 11: take it away from you. There's a lot of ways
Speaker 11: to die in California. You know, there's there's a lot
Speaker 11: of industry, there's you know, firming accidents can happen pretty easily,
Speaker 11: and you know there's there's a thousand ways to die
Speaker 11: in California.
Speaker 8: M hm.
Speaker 10: Well, let's get to that right away, because we have
Speaker 10: some incredible stories to cover in here. The more again
Speaker 10: you say, bizarre, freakish, just curious. Well we'll get to
Speaker 10: the bizarre and the freakish and murder it. And let's
Speaker 10: start off with one really colossal story, because this is amazing.
Speaker 10: You conclude to oftentimes you don't really get good photos,
Speaker 10: but you have some fantastic photos of the ape boy.
Speaker 10: So let's talk about the circumstances that the ape boy
Speaker 10: in Los Angeles Sheriff's department talking to a Canadian named
Speaker 10: Sandford Clark, an American consul in Vancouver. So tell us
Speaker 10: about the eight Boy.
Speaker 11: Well, the eight boys, you know. And I did not
Speaker 11: know about this at all until I was doing this book.
Speaker 11: And what happened is I came across I was looking
Speaker 11: for some other story, and I came across the trial
Speaker 11: of this and they have to go, you know, discover it.
Speaker 11: I was shocked that I've never I never knew about it.
Speaker 11: And as soon as soon as Death California came out,
Speaker 11: two books came out about the boy. But it was
Speaker 11: well put it this way. I had to stop writing
Speaker 11: this chapter for a couple of months. I just put
Speaker 11: it aside and worked on some other ones because I
Speaker 11: was getting too disturbed by it. This this guy SANDFORW. Clark.
Speaker 11: He came into the Los Angeles Sheriff's department and he
Speaker 11: told them about his cousin and.
Speaker 10: H you've been he's fourteen years old. If I's on
Speaker 10: the audience, he's fourteen years old.
Speaker 11: Yeah. He came in told him about his cousin, Gordon Northcott,
Speaker 11: and told him that you know, he was, you know,
Speaker 11: a chicken ranch in this town called Wineville, which is
Speaker 11: in Riverside County, east of Los Angeles, and he told
Speaker 11: them that he was kidnapped from his home in Saskatchewan
Speaker 11: nineteen twenty six and kept him this decrepit ranch against
Speaker 11: his will. And he told tales of the kidnapping, rape
Speaker 11: and torture and murder, all committed by his uncle. And
Speaker 11: that's Gordon Northcott. He was twenty one years old, and
Speaker 11: he claimed that his uncle was going to kill him
Speaker 11: if they ever let anyone know about what was going on.
Speaker 11: So the police department went out there with the Riverside
Speaker 11: Police and they just found like a horrible, horrible scene.
Speaker 11: They found bloodstained the stairs, blood was everywhere, cots, bloody axes, hatchet,
Speaker 11: they had hair on it. Just the most disgusting thing.
Speaker 11: And there were three recently consumed graves and.
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Speaker 11: They had the imprint of the bodies and the dirt
Speaker 11: in the bottom, and they found bone fragments. Actually, by
Speaker 11: the time it was over, they found two bushel baskets
Speaker 11: of bone fragments scattered out throughout that property. There's like
Speaker 11: young there's clothing that young boys would wear. And yeah,
Speaker 11: I was the police found this horrible mess. And this
Speaker 11: one kid, nine year old Walter Collins, he went to
Speaker 11: a movie and he lived in Los Angeles area, which
Speaker 11: to a movie never return, And that's kind of like
Speaker 11: what would happen. He would either lure the kids to
Speaker 11: the ranchs saying that there was a job or work,
Speaker 11: or he would just kidnap them, and his uncle Gordon
Speaker 11: would overpower room and tie them the cot and rape
Speaker 11: and torture them for as long as he felt like it,
Speaker 11: and then he would kill them. I was like stunned.
Speaker 11: I'm still kind of stunned at the story that such
Speaker 11: a thing could even happen, especially in nineteen twenty six.
Speaker 10: And what did the nephew have to do, Sanfrey Clark
Speaker 10: was besides witnessing some of it, what was his entire
Speaker 10: role in this which is even more disturbing.
Speaker 11: Oh, he would have to help him, you know, tie
Speaker 11: him up and all that stuff. And he'd have him
Speaker 11: in one case with that Clark boy, he had him
Speaker 11: carry his captated head, you know, bucket two different shed
Speaker 11: on the property. There there was a Hispanic boy that
Speaker 11: they found like his headless body out in the desert area.
Speaker 11: And that wasn't one of his victims too. They never
Speaker 11: did find out who that kid was. He said that
Speaker 11: that Clark was out hiding out at a miner's cabin
Speaker 11: in the Mint Valley, which I believe the Mint Valley
Speaker 11: is full of homes now. Back in nineteen twenty six,
Speaker 11: it was just desert, and he went and saw a miner.
Speaker 11: He had a friend that was a miner out there,
Speaker 11: and Northcott killed the miner with his friend. And when
Speaker 11: they were looking for mineshaft to throw the guy in,
Speaker 11: they found this Hispanic boy hiding and so he took
Speaker 11: him back to his ranch and did his torture routine
Speaker 11: with him for a week, and they ended up shooting
Speaker 11: that boy and chopping off his head. That's when Stanford
Speaker 11: had to carry it out. So the police found it
Speaker 11: the body along the roadside near this town of Norcoe,
Speaker 11: and they couldn't identify him. They never did identify him.
Speaker 11: One time there was a married couple came to work
Speaker 11: on the farm and Stanford or Gordon, was arguing with
Speaker 11: his mother. He was really babied by his mother. She
Speaker 11: was just dotted on and his family actually bought him
Speaker 11: the chicken ranch to keep him out of trouble, and
Speaker 11: they give him some kind of occupation because he was
Speaker 11: such a odd ball. And so this couple were there
Speaker 11: and Gordon and his mother started arguing about them, and
Speaker 11: they did the right thing and just kind of, you know,
Speaker 11: quietly got in their car and took off, and he
Speaker 11: had already dug the two grapes for them.
Speaker 10: Now the police are, They put out this all points
Speaker 10: bulletined for the capture of Gordon and his mother and
Speaker 10: his father, And so pretty soon they meet up with
Speaker 10: the elderly North time. What does he tell him, What
Speaker 10: does the father tell Him's sixty four years old? What
Speaker 10: does he say about his.
Speaker 11: He he was very proud of his son. He told
Speaker 11: the he actually told the police and the press that
Speaker 11: he was an ape boy, that he was covered with
Speaker 11: hair when he was born, he was like a chimpanzee,
Speaker 11: and he thought he was this horrible, horrible person. He
Speaker 11: would Gordon would go around and he always wore lipstick,
Speaker 11: which is kind of funny, especially in nineteen twenty six.
Speaker 8: And U but he.
Speaker 11: He, he he, he was definitely just very very disturbed
Speaker 11: his father. Yeah. Leader at the trial came out that
Speaker 11: his father was actually his uncle. He was he was
Speaker 11: what would you say, not a victim, but he was
Speaker 11: the result of an ancestuous relationship between his sister his father. Yeah.
Speaker 10: Now he the police asked the father Cyrus, and they said,
Speaker 10: did he tell you about the murders. He said, yeah,
Speaker 10: he told me about the murders, but I don't believe
Speaker 10: anything he said, and I didn't believe what he had said.
Speaker 10: But again he didn't say that, no, my innocent. He
Speaker 10: basically said he's a rotten guy and forced us to
Speaker 10: just moved in with us. Basically, you know, so now
Speaker 10: tell us about the actual capture because we we'll have
Speaker 10: to get to the trial, which is absolutely something out
Speaker 10: of a out of a very very bizarre movie. So
Speaker 10: tell us about the capture of the boy.
Speaker 11: Oh, he was when the police found him in Cavuary, Calgary, Alberta.
Speaker 11: He was on his he his mom was there and
Speaker 11: they caught her there and he was disguised as a female.
Speaker 11: They captured him on a train in Vernon, British Columbia.
Speaker 11: And uh and immediately assuming he was caught, it was
Speaker 11: like like the biggest time of his life. He was
Speaker 11: totally grandstanding about, you know, what what he did and
Speaker 11: what he was and the police thought that he was
Speaker 11: preparing for an insanity plea and you know, he was insane.
Speaker 11: I mean the fight Exedition Canada turned him over to
Speaker 11: Los Angeles police department. They run on a train only
Speaker 11: back down to Los Angeles and he totally talked about
Speaker 11: what he did the entire time, and he.
Speaker 12: He was like a.
Speaker 11: Show about He wanted the attention, he loved the attention.
Speaker 10: Well, that extends this narcissistic personality is that when he
Speaker 10: makes this confession, but then he goes to court leads
Speaker 10: not guilty and course defends himself. Tell us a little
Speaker 10: bit about this defense, because there is a moment in
Speaker 10: this trial that is truly I've never read anything like it.
Speaker 10: So tell us a little bit about how the proud
Speaker 10: was Leeds. It's a ridiculous one. But just tell him
Speaker 10: about about his demeanor and how he what he acted
Speaker 10: like at his own trial.
Speaker 11: Yeah, he he, he was just it is really one
Speaker 11: of the most bizarre cases that do you think, I mean,
Speaker 11: you know, it's it's it's just outrageous. He uh uh,
Speaker 11: he was proud of he is that that uh that
Speaker 11: uh that he would be by defending himself. You know,
Speaker 11: everyone says that, you know, you have a fool for
Speaker 11: an attorney when you defend yourself, and he said it'd
Speaker 11: be worth it. My name would become known all over
Speaker 11: the world, which is so funny because I've never you know,
Speaker 11: and I've been digging into this murder stuff, you know,
Speaker 11: since nineteen eighty and I never heard of this guy
Speaker 11: until then. So he wasn't uh, you know, known like
Speaker 11: he was. But he he he would stick his jaw
Speaker 11: out while people were testifying against him. He'd make like
Speaker 11: these big gestures. He I guess the funniest thing for
Speaker 11: me is he cross examined himself and he'd turn his
Speaker 11: head one way when he asked the question, and he
Speaker 11: turned his head the other way when he'd answer it
Speaker 11: in a different voice, that was I was just bizarre.
Speaker 11: And he brought up about his sister. You know, he
Speaker 11: had all these people they had to be brought out
Speaker 11: there from Canada and stuff and accuse the sister of
Speaker 11: being his mother and his father was also his grandfather,
Speaker 11: but you know, had nothing to do with the case. Yeah,
Speaker 11: he asked his cousin how did she get a black eye?
Speaker 11: And how did she know that he gave her a
Speaker 11: black eye? And she answered, is you punched me in
Speaker 11: the eye with your fifth Yeah. He would talk to
Speaker 11: the reporters during breaks and things and saying it was
Speaker 11: just terrible. What did you think was the weirdest thing?
Speaker 11: Did I get that?
Speaker 10: Well? I think that that is the weirdest thing across
Speaker 10: examination of yourself. I mean I've seen, you know, I've
Speaker 10: seen the thing where he's cross examining, like you say,
Speaker 10: his sister and he said, because you hit me in
Speaker 10: the face. The only time I've ever really seen that
Speaker 10: is the guy that killed all the people on the
Speaker 10: subway on the train, and he then was cross examining
Speaker 10: the he was defending himself and cross examining the victims
Speaker 10: and asking him absurd questions like that, and he was like,
Speaker 10: because I saw you.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 10: The most heinous and disgusting part is and heartbreaking part
Speaker 10: is is when it was exposed that Northcot made the
Speaker 10: couple of these Winslow boys write a letter to their
Speaker 10: parents explaining that they had ran away from home. And
Speaker 10: then right after that and testified, and then the Sanford Clark,
Speaker 10: the fourteen year old, said that the nephew said, as
Speaker 10: soon as the boys were done with the letters, they
Speaker 10: were killed.
Speaker 11: Yeah, and as yeah, and allegedly his mother killed I
Speaker 11: think the Collins boy where she was just got fed
Speaker 11: up with him raping him for so long and beating
Speaker 11: him that she ran up and hit him in the
Speaker 11: head with an axe. Put the kid out of his misery.
Speaker 11: That Christine Collins, her son was missing, and she went
Speaker 11: to the police about it and they were like, oh,
Speaker 11: he'll come back. And then they found this kid ren
Speaker 11: away somewhere and he kind of looked like the kid,
Speaker 11: so they asked him and the kid said yes, sure.
Speaker 11: They put him out a train with a cop to
Speaker 11: Los Angeles, and when Christine Collins saw so that's not
Speaker 11: my son, and the sheriff from the Los Angeles Police
Speaker 11: Department said, well, you may get used to them, you know,
Speaker 11: try him out for a while, you may get used
Speaker 11: to them. And when she came to the police department
Speaker 11: with his dental records and other evidence, they lacked her
Speaker 11: up in a Saint Asatum And that's right when the
Speaker 11: case broke out. She was there for about four days
Speaker 11: when the whole thing opened up about Gordon.
Speaker 10: And it was interesting too, that is they've taken that
Speaker 10: one incident with the woman being hospitalized in them trying
Speaker 10: to impose his child that wasn't hers clearly on her
Speaker 10: and then deeming her mentally ill and institutionalizing her was
Speaker 10: the subject of the Clint Eastwind directed movie Changeling, Is
Speaker 10: It Yes?
Speaker 11: With Angelina Jolie and Jen Milkevich.
Speaker 10: Mm hmm, very interesting.
Speaker 11: You know that's I missed that maybe when it came
Speaker 11: out too, and so I did not know, And that
Speaker 11: was right about when I was writing this too.
Speaker 10: Now they prosecuted his mother as well, North Scott's mother
Speaker 10: as well, didn't they.
Speaker 11: Yeah, she said that she was the one that did
Speaker 11: all the murders and stuff. She was so devoted to
Speaker 11: her son, I've seen photos of her, and she was
Speaker 11: only like in her forties, but she seriously looked like
Speaker 11: a seven year old woman who lived outside her whole life.
Speaker 11: I mean, she just looked like she just suffered forever.
Speaker 11: At his trial, she could only cry. She couldn't even
Speaker 11: answer anything. They just took her away. She couldn't even answer.
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Speaker 11: Hysterical you said to that he was surprised.
Speaker 10: First thought, was surprised when they just read out his
Speaker 10: confession that he had blurted out. So it was like
Speaker 10: he made this defense, but it was pretty well shattered
Speaker 10: by his own words, and he seemed to be kind
Speaker 10: of stunned by that.
Speaker 11: Yeah, he you know, he should have just just you know,
Speaker 11: he could always look at hindsight, but I mean, he
Speaker 11: should have known better. He was absolutely crazy, and he
Speaker 11: would have just been put away into the same asylum.
Speaker 11: You know. They wouldn't have they wouldn't have convicted him
Speaker 11: as a murderer or anything that back in those days especially,
Speaker 11: they would have just you know, locked him up forever.
Speaker 11: And I like that kid in Colorado that shoutouts people
Speaker 11: in the theater, and he admitted he did it, and
Speaker 11: they still did a trial out of him. And it's
Speaker 11: like the guys, obviously, you know, there was something obviously
Speaker 11: wrong with him, and he should be put into some
Speaker 11: kind of mental institution. It's a lot of a lot
Speaker 11: of times, you know, when people commit mass murders. Is
Speaker 11: like that women who in Florida who drowned her kids
Speaker 11: in the tub, and you know, they dragged around through
Speaker 11: this whole court case. And when that happens to me
Speaker 11: in America, I always feel that the prosecutor is just
Speaker 11: trying to grandstand to run for a higher office later
Speaker 11: or something, because it's obvious that, you know, people are
Speaker 11: crazy when they commit such crimes, and you know, to
Speaker 11: drag them through the court system and spend all that
Speaker 11: money for that is just I believe, a waste of resources.
Speaker 11: And it also gives them publicity that you know they
Speaker 11: either want or don't want. But yeah, it's uh, it's
Speaker 11: pretty obvious times when people are are insane, and Northcott
Speaker 11: was definitely one of them. He ended up getting executed
Speaker 11: for it too. I believe that if you would have
Speaker 11: just you know, plant insanity, he just he would have
Speaker 11: probably looked to be an old man.
Speaker 10: Well, you've brought up the issues, so I have to
Speaker 10: jump in here a little bit in terms of I
Speaker 10: understand what you're saying, but it is political the way
Speaker 10: you have compared to the Canadian system, you have politics
Speaker 10: being a main force in terms of somebody trying to
Speaker 10: get elected, and the trial just happens to be around
Speaker 10: that time and the public is already it had already
Speaker 10: resonated with the public, and there's a certain amount of outrage.
Speaker 10: Then you use that politically in terms of tough on
Speaker 10: crime and taking that and using it. But if you
Speaker 10: have a system where that's the way it's set up,
Speaker 10: then you will have those kinds of things, but there
Speaker 10: is still, bottom line, you do have more adherence to
Speaker 10: the victims, families and victims of God allay their needs
Speaker 10: and their wants, and a lot of that will be
Speaker 10: their wishes, and so some of that will be that
Speaker 10: a lot of people would think that we don't want
Speaker 10: to have any compassion for somebody that's capable of killing
Speaker 10: eight or ten people, regardless, we don't want to talk
Speaker 10: about resources, so we're gonna we're going to somehow care
Speaker 10: about rehabilitating that person. But yet they fear, really bottom
Speaker 10: line fear, and this is what really runs the entire issue,
Speaker 10: is that people fear that those people may may be
Speaker 10: released some day. So they I think if they had
Speaker 10: an assurance that they would never ever be released, and
Speaker 10: and and because they're never ever going to be released,
Speaker 10: there's a less you know, investment in terms of actual rehabilitation.
Speaker 10: They're not going to be placed on the street. So
Speaker 10: that's what you have. But I got to tell you
Speaker 10: you should just check out Canada sometime. And we have
Speaker 10: a gentleman named Vincent Lee just to show you the contrast.
Speaker 10: In the same judicial system, same laws, but somehow they've
Speaker 10: evolved in common law to the point where we have
Speaker 10: the I'm pretty sure you're aware of the guy that
Speaker 10: killed and cannibalized the person on a Greyhound bus and
Speaker 10: seven years after that crime is released to a halfway
Speaker 10: house in Winnipeg, and the assurance is that a psychiatrist
Speaker 10: has seen him and assessed his risk as one percent,
Speaker 10: which I think is pathetically laughable.
Speaker 11: Yea p zero.
Speaker 10: Percent, And this is based on somebody. I guess he
Speaker 10: will for a certain period of time, for a long
Speaker 10: period of time, have supervision where so that his rug
Speaker 10: regimen is maintained. But I always I can't believe that
Speaker 10: we're so certain that that medication or any medication can
Speaker 10: control this. I find it hard to believe. And I
Speaker 10: think that Americans would find it very very hard to
Speaker 10: believe in nothing like this, Holmes, gentlemen being released in
Speaker 10: seven or fourteen or twenty one, that would be outraged,
Speaker 10: wouldn't there be?
Speaker 11: Yeah? Yeah, in America, most of the laws in the
Speaker 11: States are if you are judged insane in a crime
Speaker 11: and put away. If you are deemed sane, then they
Speaker 11: will try you for those crimes.
Speaker 10: Yeah, in certain cases. But if you were unfit to
Speaker 10: stand trial, then you would have that. You would have
Speaker 10: that as well. But the thing is is that there
Speaker 10: is such a small percentage of people that use the
Speaker 10: insanity defense to their advantage in serious crimes like murder.
Speaker 10: We'll talk murder and then a very very small person.
Speaker 10: I think it's a quarter twenty five percent of one percent,
Speaker 10: so almost no cases whatsoever. But like I say, what's
Speaker 10: very interesting, I think, and I hope American audience is
Speaker 10: interested as well, because there's going to be more of
Speaker 10: these cases. In Canada. There was a case in Montreal
Speaker 10: that's being retried now, but I really looks like the
Speaker 10: only reason it's being retried is that the mother of
Speaker 10: the victims, the two children, is a cardiologist. It's a doctor,
Speaker 10: and what his defense was insanity, temporary insanity based on depression.
Speaker 10: He murdered his two children, and he he did receive
Speaker 10: some time. He was held you know, of course murder trial.
Speaker 10: He was held in custody that would have went towards
Speaker 10: a sentence. They used the insanity defense and the depression.
Speaker 10: It worked. He was put in him in an institution
Speaker 10: for six months and released free.
Speaker 11: Wow in six months?
Speaker 10: Six months?
Speaker 11: Yeah, jeez, Well, you know there's that you could fix.
Speaker 10: That, you could fix someone that. That's the thing that
Speaker 10: I think is a dangerous and when I think Americans
Speaker 10: hear that, they know and I think I've got to
Speaker 10: warn people as well as that if it works in
Speaker 10: this jurisdiction, it can work in another liberal jurisdy. They're
Speaker 10: always pushing the boundaries as you know, what what a
Speaker 10: lawyer will do, what he believes his his role is,
Speaker 10: and what they're they believe their role is in pushing
Speaker 10: law again of course, to their client's advantage into their advantage.
Speaker 10: It lived a very interesting contrast between the two.
Speaker 11: I think. Yeah, I lived in Wisconsin and you know
Speaker 11: there's the Ed Keane story. You know about them, right?
Speaker 12: Oh?
Speaker 11: Yes, yeah, So so I had a lot of friends
Speaker 11: in Madison that were you know, very very into it
Speaker 11: because you know, they're proud of their cannibals there and
Speaker 11: Jeffrey Dahmer and so. But he was put away in
Speaker 11: prison or in a mental institution just outside of Madison
Speaker 11: called Mendota Hospital, and he lived out his life there.
Speaker 11: I think he'd lived to be eighty three years old.
Speaker 11: I had a professor, my psychology professor at school there.
Speaker 11: She told me that when she was working for a PhD.
Speaker 11: She was working at Mendota as part of her program,
Speaker 11: and Ed Deane was there, and she said he was
Speaker 11: just the nicest, sweetest guy. You'd never know that he
Speaker 11: had done the horrible things that he did. But he
Speaker 11: was locked up forever. Whereas Dahmer, they weren't so so
Speaker 11: generous with him. But it might have been because it
Speaker 11: was a different time. You know, Dahmer was what in
Speaker 11: the early nineties and Ed Keane was in the sixties
Speaker 11: or the fifties.
Speaker 10: Well, Dahmer, there's going to be a book called Dahmer Detective,
Speaker 10: And so I've got to say that already. There's just
Speaker 10: going to be something out that I'm involved with as
Speaker 10: an editor and always talk about that is that I
Speaker 10: had interviewed Robert K. Wrestler and interviewed Mark. Oh jeez,
Speaker 10: forgive me the one half of the team of John
Speaker 10: Douglas and the mind Hunter team.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 10: Anyway, I won't just try to freeform his last name. Anyway.
Speaker 10: There was the controversy at the Dahmer trial in that
Speaker 10: Robert K. Wrestler, a prominent profiler, again claiming he invented it,
Speaker 10: and John Douglas, of course claims he invented it, but
Speaker 10: they both were involved in the pioneering of criminal profiling
Speaker 10: at the FBI, And Robert K. Wrestler went against his
Speaker 10: partner and said that Dahmer was insane, and Douglas said no.
Speaker 10: And I looked at that case up and down, and
Speaker 10: I would say that I would agree with Douglas. And
Speaker 10: the only insane thing, the only insane thing that Dahmer did,
Speaker 10: is that he got unorganized. And unless you want to
Speaker 10: be super rigid with this unorganized, organized killer, he became unorganized.
Speaker 10: And the real traumatic event in Dahmer's life at that
Speaker 10: time that made him all squirrely and unorganized and careless.
Speaker 6: Was he was very.
Speaker 10: Trepidacious about moving out of his apartment. Wow, so for
Speaker 10: a psychopath, you would think, what, what's you know? Is
Speaker 10: it a head sitting in acid or in my my
Speaker 10: my fridge.
Speaker 11: No, Jesus worried that he had collected. He was worried
Speaker 11: about getting caught or moving his dead It was just moving.
Speaker 11: It wasn't.
Speaker 10: He wasn't he wasn't never worried about being caught up
Speaker 10: to that point. He you know, his nonchalance in the
Speaker 10: face of no normal person would ever respond the way
Speaker 10: he responded. That's how you can fool people. That's how
Speaker 10: you how you fool police. Yeah, because you're not You
Speaker 10: don't have normal responses. The police know about normal responsors
Speaker 10: and sort of normal. Most people they know something's not
Speaker 10: even as they don't know what's up right. So even
Speaker 10: in your book, you have cases where people you know
Speaker 10: would have been killed, but they listened to a couple
Speaker 10: of people arguing and said, hey, let's get out of here.
Speaker 10: So yeah, well, let's talk Let's talk about the lady killer.
Speaker 11: That's all fact.
Speaker 10: San Matteo Palo Alto, nineteen eighty five and nineteen forty two.
Speaker 10: So let's let's talk about the lady killer and the
Speaker 10: background before that. When you talk about December seventh, nineteen
Speaker 10: forty one.
Speaker 11: Yeah, Pearl Harbor. Yeah, California was and there. You know,
Speaker 11: there's another case about that. It's kind of a direct
Speaker 11: result of it. But when Kel, when the you know,
Speaker 11: Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, that just changed everything, especially in
Speaker 11: California where you know, these small little country you know,
Speaker 11: grain elevator towns were turned into giant air Force bases
Speaker 11: or army bases, and you know the amount of people
Speaker 11: they had to come to California in order to work
Speaker 11: at the shipyards and the rail yards and everything that
Speaker 11: they needed just exploded, especially in San Francisco. They had
Speaker 11: just a population explosion where overnight everything stayed open all
Speaker 11: night long, movie theaters, stores, because they were running ships
Speaker 11: twenty four to seven knocking out ships, especially not too
Speaker 11: far from where I live here, like in Malajo and
Speaker 11: all that area. Mare Island was there. The ships would
Speaker 11: come back to get fixed from battle damaged right in
Speaker 11: San Francisco, so they would go right through the city
Speaker 11: and people would see it. Just all these African Americans
Speaker 11: from the South came up to work in the factories,
Speaker 11: and so all of a sudden they had this big
Speaker 11: influx of people of a very different culture, and you know,
Speaker 11: it's it was a big mixing bowl, big toss salad
Speaker 11: of different races and cultures and religions that was just
Speaker 11: thrown at California. It was like a big custard pie
Speaker 11: just thrown in the face of California. And the pretty
Speaker 11: much the government was pretty much you deal with it,
Speaker 11: you know. So yeah, these these little tiny towns has
Speaker 11: turned into like, you know, rough and tumble cities. They
Speaker 11: still are too. Some of the roughest towns in California
Speaker 11: were built during the war for for housing and for
Speaker 11: all these people that came in of Lajoe, it's it's
Speaker 11: it's still pretty you know, it's like Northeast Bay and
Speaker 11: it's still pretty violent and poverty ridden. And what they
Speaker 11: did is they built like a hundred thousand houses in
Speaker 11: one year. And those houses are still there. There's still
Speaker 11: they were built temporary in the first place, and they
Speaker 11: never tore them down and built proper structures. So very
Speaker 11: big slum and there's there's actually in Vallejo, people are
Speaker 11: told Matt to get off the freeway like to skik
Speaker 11: gas or anything like that. It's like you just drive
Speaker 11: straight through. I know, a bunch of stories about people
Speaker 11: that you know, stopped in Vallejo and the guy at
Speaker 11: the gas station said, what the hell are you doing here?
Speaker 11: Get out of here, you die. You know, it was
Speaker 11: just a very tough place. And now it's when San
Speaker 11: Francisco had its big housing boom, like it's still going
Speaker 11: through now. All the poor people that lived in San Francisco,
Speaker 11: which basically was on Fillmore Fillmore Street in that area,
Speaker 11: they got priced right out of their homes and they
Speaker 11: all moved to the East Bay and mostly Vallejo. And
Speaker 11: you know, that's never a good situation when you have
Speaker 11: that many, you know, poor people moving to a place
Speaker 11: that's already poor.
Speaker 10: Now let's talk about you introduced thirty one year old
Speaker 10: Bernice Curtis, and you say, she's a very good looking woman.
Speaker 10: She had moved from Chicago. She was recently divorced. Our
Speaker 10: married sister lived in San Francisco and she shared an
Speaker 10: apartment with a woman named Elsa Martin, and she worked
Speaker 10: as a clerk at a cigar store. And November twenty third,
Speaker 10: nineteen forty two, Santa Clair Sheriff's deputies discovered her fully
Speaker 10: clothed body beaten to death and her fingers and her
Speaker 10: jaw were broken and the back of her skull cracked
Speaker 10: and her face shoved in the mud of a plowed
Speaker 10: field near an intersection.
Speaker 11: South of Palo Alto.
Speaker 10: So it looks like she pa put up a struggle,
Speaker 10: but it didn't look like it was robbery was the motive.
Speaker 10: So tell us about what proceeds with the sheriff's detectives
Speaker 10: and how they start learning about Bernice Curtis.
Speaker 11: Well, they did an investigation about her, and they found
Speaker 11: out that she was a very attractive person who was
Speaker 11: very very nice, and everyone liked her. She worked in
Speaker 11: the cigar store and there'd be thousands of people all
Speaker 11: day come in there just buy a cigar, a lot
Speaker 11: of them just coming in just to see her. I mean,
Speaker 11: we all have that place. I know, I go to
Speaker 11: one coffee shop is because somebody is so beautiful and
Speaker 11: it just makes my day. They found her in this
Speaker 11: in this freshly cloud field, and now that area is
Speaker 11: very expensive subdivision area. That whole area is not even
Speaker 11: close to being a muddy field. They checked her background
Speaker 11: and you know, everything kind of came out fine. She
Speaker 11: was just a you know, person living on around. Her
Speaker 11: ex husband was in the Army and he was out
Speaker 11: in the South Pacific, so they knew that he didn't
Speaker 11: do it, and her brother in law said that he was.
Speaker 11: She was dating a tall, dark and handsome lit Latino
Speaker 11: man named Frank.
Speaker 7: And.
Speaker 11: They did some more investigation. They were going out for
Speaker 11: about three weeks and he would always buy her a
Speaker 11: corsage of lavender, sweet peas and gardenia, and it was
Speaker 11: always from the same flower shop that was near where
Speaker 11: she lived, like he would stop there before he went
Speaker 11: over to her house and they'd gone a date. He
Speaker 11: worked in a shipyard in South San Francisco and he
Speaker 11: was divorced, had a daughter, had a I loved it,
Speaker 11: and they say he had like a pencil mustache, you know,
Speaker 11: so he was kind of a hipster guy. They were
Speaker 11: out clubbing at some nightclub in San Jose, and I
Speaker 11: thought that was kind of odd because that's quite a distance.
Speaker 11: You know. They have that song do you know the
Speaker 11: way San Jose? And that's because it's it's hard to
Speaker 11: get to that town because there's like fifteen different freeways
Speaker 11: you have to change on and there's like no easy
Speaker 11: way to get to San Jose. But they went there
Speaker 11: that night to this nightclub called the Hawaiian Gardens, and
Speaker 11: after she was murdered, her photo was in the newspaper
Speaker 11: and people at work there soday she was here with
Speaker 11: another couple and this guy they knew was Frank. Frank
Speaker 11: turned out to be a Filipino American from San Bruno
Speaker 11: and you know, worked as a pipe vetter, ship vetter
Speaker 11: or something like that.
Speaker 6: The cops.
Speaker 11: Had it, kind of had their eye on him for
Speaker 11: a long time because of a murder that happened in
Speaker 11: nineteen thirty five. And they found her underneath a railroad
Speaker 11: pass over, our railroad overpass on East Poplar Avenue in
Speaker 11: San Matero. And again San Matto is like a very
Speaker 11: nice town these days, and the overpass is still there,
Speaker 11: which I found really amazing in a way. I guess
Speaker 11: they don't go away, but it's kind of odd when
Speaker 11: it's like, wow, it's it's still there. But they found
Speaker 11: this woman there that was murder and they had they
Speaker 11: had thought, the police had thought that he was the
Speaker 11: guy that did it, but they could never prove it,
Speaker 11: and he'd always lawyer up. But it was to the
Speaker 11: point where he used a really unusual gun. It was
Speaker 11: made from Germany, and it was some strange caliber and
Speaker 11: there was only six of them registered in the entire
Speaker 11: state of California, and one of the owners of the
Speaker 11: gun was his father, and his father reported at stolen
Speaker 11: a couple of months before that murder happened. His father
Speaker 11: ran like a pool haul tavern or something, so he
Speaker 11: always hired, you know, his father would hire a hot
Speaker 11: shot attorney and he'd get him out. He would he
Speaker 11: got him out of it, and the cops are still like,
Speaker 11: I'm watching you, you know, for if you mess up,
Speaker 11: we're going to come back at you about it. So
Speaker 11: he had already murdered in nineteen thirty five, and here
Speaker 11: it was like to to seven years later he did
Speaker 11: it again.
Speaker 10: Now the thing is with they have him on He
Speaker 10: was that main suspect in that other murder. So then
Speaker 10: they they questioned him and he is real nonchalant. But
Speaker 10: then when he sees the body, he breaks down and
Speaker 10: he starts crying, that's me.
Speaker 11: The body of uh of Robinson, of Robinson. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 11: he's uh, he's he uh yeah, it's hard to he's
Speaker 11: it's the hard guy to pin down. He was uh,
Speaker 11: he was a bad guy.
Speaker 10: Now there's enough evidence at for Bernice Curtis, there's bloody
Speaker 10: clothing at his home. Uh had his hotel room in
Speaker 10: San Bruno. So at the trial he he's represented, and
Speaker 10: there's enough evidence at this crime scene. Like I say,
Speaker 10: there's even a green feather is found at the crime
Speaker 10: scene which matched perfectly a feather stub of a hat
Speaker 10: that was owned by Alkalaide, and and some other evidence.
Speaker 11: So yeah, they found So there's a bunch of yes.
Speaker 10: Absolutely. So what happens at this trial as a result
Speaker 10: with all this compelling evidence and how does he respond?
Speaker 11: Well, he he denied that he did such a thing,
Speaker 11: and they had a bus driver went by and saw
Speaker 11: the car with the door open. And in the early
Speaker 11: morning hours when that happened, a hat check girl from
Speaker 11: that Hawaiian club came out and he had some coworkers
Speaker 11: asked he was always dragging about his dating life and stuff,
Speaker 11: and he told them that he wanted to go back
Speaker 11: to his wife, but Bernice was the marrying kind. He'd
Speaker 11: have to get rid of her. His father also set
Speaker 11: up a line of somebody else making an excuse for
Speaker 11: his alibi, and his wife came in during the resets
Speaker 11: and she grabbed his attorney and just walked out. She
Speaker 11: didn't say a thing to him. He claimed that he
Speaker 11: had that she had a date with another guy the
Speaker 11: day died, and no one believed him he was his
Speaker 11: alibi was torn to shreds. He a fifteen day trial too,
Speaker 11: which is actually pretty long for in those days. Yeah,
Speaker 11: he was ended up being sentenced to death and his
Speaker 11: wife died like just a few years later from pneumoniae
Speaker 11: or something, and he went to the guest chamber.
Speaker 10: And yeah, now that that does lead us to head
Speaker 10: and hands another very very bizarre story that happens in
Speaker 10: Temple City, Los Angeles County. And this is December thirtieth,
Speaker 10: nineteen forty five, so we're around the same time. And
Speaker 10: you introduce some characters here, fred Frederick Eggers, and he's
Speaker 10: the sheriff of San Francisco from nineteen twelve to nineteen fifteen. Yeah,
Speaker 10: and so tell us a little bit about this, this
Speaker 10: Eggers and what happens in uh in this little community.
Speaker 11: Yeah, his father came over from Germany and was on
Speaker 11: the Bord of Supervisors in San Francisco, which is, you know,
Speaker 11: the board of Supervisors elect the mayor in San Francisco.
Speaker 11: That's it's kind of done differently than other cities. And uh,
Speaker 11: you know, ambitious guy and uh uh you know, new
Speaker 11: immigrants and stuff. They he ended up his son, Arthur,
Speaker 11: ended up moving to southern California lived in Temple City,
Speaker 11: which was it's like another town east of uh San Francisco,
Speaker 11: and he oh, jeez, you know that it was pretty
Speaker 11: close to where the Ape Boy was. And you know
Speaker 11: that the town that that the Ape Boy was living
Speaker 11: in is called Wineville and they ended up changing the
Speaker 11: name of the city because it was so it was
Speaker 11: the murder was so bad, they changed it to Mira Loma.
Speaker 11: So let's get back on that one. It's like the
Speaker 11: criminal was so bad that the town where he lived
Speaker 11: changed the name of the town. But Edgar's was he
Speaker 11: was just a working, stiff guy and living in Temple
Speaker 11: City and there was all the you know that was
Speaker 11: going base. I think that's where they had tanks training
Speaker 11: and stuff out there. And now of course it's like golf,
Speaker 11: you know, pretty pretty much all houses and stuff. So
Speaker 11: during the war, you know, people their their lives were
Speaker 11: tossed out, you know there there, you know, little towns
Speaker 11: are full of men and women that weren't from there,
Speaker 11: and you know everyone had anxiety from the war, my
Speaker 11: own parents.
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Speaker 4: We're just necess every dad wherever I lost et terms
Speaker 4: conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 11: It's got married after only meeting each other once. And
Speaker 11: you know, my dad was a dashing Air Force lieutenant
Speaker 11: and you know, and my mom was a nice Polish
Speaker 11: girl from each Chicago, Indiana, and they met at her
Speaker 11: brother's house and they ended up getting married. And I
Speaker 11: didn't know about this until I was in my thirties,
Speaker 11: that they had only seen each other twice before they
Speaker 11: had gotten married. And it happened a lot there. People
Speaker 11: became very promiscuous and everyone was drinking a lot and
Speaker 11: was saying, like, you know, why not. You know, there
Speaker 11: were having a world war. You know, let's just break
Speaker 11: out the booze and have a ball. As the song
Speaker 11: goes the the edgar's his wife, what was her name there?
Speaker 11: Is Dorothy? Dorothy Dorothy Dorothy, Yeah, Dorothy, Okay, because I
Speaker 11: wrote this book like seven years ago too, so it's
Speaker 11: been a while. But Dorothy, she'd hang out at the
Speaker 11: bars and she'd have her little flings and things like that,
Speaker 11: and it cause tension in the household. But you know,
Speaker 11: they argued and things like that, but you know, they
Speaker 11: stayed together. Who's to judge anyone's marriage. But on just
Speaker 11: January second, nineteen forty six, and by this time, you know,
Speaker 11: the war was over, but you know, things had to
Speaker 11: wind down. There were thousands and thousands of soldiers and
Speaker 11: sailors and airmen waiting at like in Oakland, at their
Speaker 11: train station. There were sixteen thousand people a day couldn't
Speaker 11: get a train to leave town. So, you know, nineteen
Speaker 11: forty six was a pretty rough time. If you look
Speaker 11: at the headlines during that time too, there was lots
Speaker 11: of crime. There was lots of murders and rapes, and
Speaker 11: you know, you got all these these guys that just
Speaker 11: came back from risking their lives and were used to
Speaker 11: killing people and used to you know, they became semi animals.
Speaker 11: Well they're out there. But January second wasn't a good
Speaker 11: day for Dorothy. And they found her headless and handless,
Speaker 11: torso in a canion. She was ramped in a blanket
Speaker 11: and tied with rope. And I was off the room
Speaker 11: of the World Highway, which is one of the greatest
Speaker 11: roads you can ever take. It's a western San Bernardino County,
Speaker 11: not far from Los Angeles. She had two bowl holes
Speaker 11: in her and she wasn't there for longer than forty
Speaker 11: eight hours. So her husband, Arthur, worked at the police department,
Speaker 11: the Sheriff's department in western Los Angeles County, and he
Speaker 11: went over to San Bernardino County to view the body.
Speaker 11: And they didn't, you know, let him. It didn't matter
Speaker 11: that he had, you know, credentials from Los Angeles County.
Speaker 11: It didn't matter. So he called his brother in law
Speaker 11: start pretending that she was missing, and you know, just
Speaker 11: played that part like, hey, where'd my wife go? You know,
Speaker 11: I better file missing person's report. And you know, he
Speaker 11: worked for the police department. I was just some kind
Speaker 11: of clerk or something like that at a substation. But
Speaker 11: on December thirtieth, he had returned from his job as
Speaker 11: he worked the evening shift, and he found his wife
Speaker 11: with another man. The guy ran out of the house,
Speaker 11: ran down the street, and that's when they figured that's
Speaker 11: when he killed her. And he shot her with a
Speaker 11: three eighty and then proceeded to cut up her body
Speaker 11: in the bathtub, thought off her head and hands and feet,
Speaker 11: and they were married for eighteen years. Too, wrapped her
Speaker 11: up and put her in the car and went up
Speaker 11: on the rim of the World Highway and dumped her
Speaker 11: in a canyon. And because he did it at night,
Speaker 11: he didn't realize that the body, you know, basically fell
Speaker 11: to where it landed on the side of the road.
Speaker 11: It wasn't that far off, So you know, it's almost
Speaker 11: in a way, it's almost cartoonist where he's like, okay,
Speaker 11: I'll just toss her up off this cliff. They'll never
Speaker 11: find her. And then you know, she lands like on
Speaker 11: a road down farther down the cliff.
Speaker 10: Now in January, he gets the police are onto him,
Speaker 10: so he gets charged for this grand theft auto and
Speaker 10: he this is the most fascinating thing, especially when in
Speaker 10: light of how much stock people make in light detector tests.
Speaker 10: This Aggers submits to light detector tests. Tell us what happens.
Speaker 10: He's confident what happens.
Speaker 11: They him up and there's a great picture of him
Speaker 11: tied up to the light detector machine and he remained
Speaker 11: cool and calm, and he passed it with flying colors.
Speaker 11: And then as soon as the test was done, he
Speaker 11: admitted to killing his wife and drew a map. And
Speaker 11: you know they had they had looked around and they
Speaker 11: were very suspicious of him. He had sold his wife's car,
Speaker 11: he'd forged her name, and he sold it to another
Speaker 11: He sold it to a cop that worked at the
Speaker 11: that worked with him, and he had cleaned up the
Speaker 11: trunk and things. And yeah, he but once he once
Speaker 11: he passed it for some reason. He he admitted to
Speaker 11: the crime. He could have been could have been let
Speaker 11: go scott free for all we know, or it would
Speaker 11: have been very hard to convict him. But he said
Speaker 11: that he burned her head and hands in their incinerator,
Speaker 11: and they they didn't find anything, you know, any residue
Speaker 11: of her. And he had said that he had buried
Speaker 11: the ashes and stuff like that. So he said it
Speaker 11: was against the law to burn anything after noon in
Speaker 11: the town that he lived in, in Temple. You know,
Speaker 11: like always, they always change their mind about the confession
Speaker 11: and stuff. But you know, there was blood in the
Speaker 11: car trunk that the police officer owned. They found blood
Speaker 11: in the trains. The three eighty bullet matched his gun. Yeah,
Speaker 11: they found a bone fragment in his gun, like between
Speaker 11: the magazine and the gun, like somehow it must have
Speaker 11: fell out. He's cunning or up or something. But he
Speaker 11: got the gas Teamber two and in a matter of
Speaker 11: two years he was put to death or his grime.
Speaker 10: Wow, well, let's change course a little bit. We just
Speaker 10: have a little bit more time. But I'd like to
Speaker 10: get to one of these stories because this was a very,
Speaker 10: very very unusual. What strikes me the most about historical
Speaker 10: crime is how similar it is to modern crime. You know,
Speaker 10: it's just different characters, different circumstances. But the behavior this narcissistic,
Speaker 10: the psychopathic, They existed a long time ago. So it's
Speaker 10: very fascinating to me because I guess I'm like a
Speaker 10: lot of people that think that it's a fairly newer phenomena,
Speaker 10: the serial killers and this type of violence, but from
Speaker 10: this book not so. So let's talk about Penny for
Speaker 10: her thoughts. And this is Daily Daily City, February first,
Speaker 10: nineteen fifty nine, a little bit more recent and twenty
Speaker 10: one year old gardner August Nori and tell us a
Speaker 10: little bit about August Nori and who he meets up with.
Speaker 10: Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 11: Well, this chapter is always blurred me because I had
Speaker 11: read about it before in various books, and they always
Speaker 11: wrote that August Nori was this man slut Tom kat.
Speaker 11: You know, he was going after women all the time
Speaker 11: and he was married and all less. And I found
Speaker 11: exactly the opposite when I started researching this story, and
Speaker 11: it even got weirder towards the end. But August was
Speaker 11: like twenty year old guy. He a former marine sharpshooter,
Speaker 11: was wounded in Korea, got education in gi Bill to
Speaker 11: study landscape architecture, and he worked at the Lake Meers
Speaker 11: Country Club, which is a very very fine place. So
Speaker 11: he had a job and all that. And he was
Speaker 11: married just for e only eighteen months, baby on the way,
Speaker 11: and you know, he was just a family guy. All
Speaker 11: these other stories written about all say that he was
Speaker 11: a man about town and nightcluber and all this stuff.
Speaker 11: I even when I was doing the research and going
Speaker 11: through the paper, I really followed it through the San
Speaker 11: material Times, which was their local newspaper. They didn't say
Speaker 11: anything like that in the paper. I don't know how
Speaker 11: these other writers came up with that, but it's totally
Speaker 11: not true. And they found him just shot to pieces
Speaker 11: in the hills and San Bruno, just outside San Bruno
Speaker 11: is like you cross the street near in San Francisco.
Speaker 11: It's just one of those older suburbs there and they
Speaker 11: found his body near Lover's Lane type area. But what
Speaker 11: had happened is that he was driving is Chrysler New Yorker,
Speaker 11: very nice car, especially during those days as well as
Speaker 11: cards can have expensive cards, like on the level of
Speaker 11: a Cadillac or something. And he saw this this girl,
Speaker 11: Penny board One, walking and they say that they had
Speaker 11: they were familiar with each other, and that's where all
Speaker 11: these like, uh, tomcat things come up. But his his
Speaker 11: widow says that he did that know her. He saw
Speaker 11: her us walk in. He asked her if she wanted
Speaker 11: to ride, and she jumped in the car and start
Speaker 11: shooting this gun out the window, and uh, he was
Speaker 11: kind of like, hey, uh, you know what you're doing.
Speaker 11: You know, it's kind of dangerous. And back then, you know,
Speaker 11: people could just shoot guns out of the car windows.
Speaker 11: And they stopped and he was up there because he
Speaker 11: had a weekend job doing some guard landscaping work and
Speaker 11: he had a bunch of he had his trunk full
Speaker 11: of a bunch of just you know, recycle green waste
Speaker 11: and then they just dumped it up there. So they drove.
Speaker 11: He drove with her and the hill was just above
Speaker 11: her house. I mean, it wasn't that far away from
Speaker 11: her either, And they stopped and she pulled out the
Speaker 11: gun and shot him eight times or yeah, six times.
Speaker 11: It was a revolver, and she reloaded three more times.
Speaker 11: She shot him eighteen times, and fourteen of the bullets
Speaker 11: went right completely through his body. And he was shot
Speaker 11: like three times in the head, three times in the neck, chest, stomach.
Speaker 11: She shot him in each of his limbs too. So
Speaker 11: the cops when they found them, they were like, what
Speaker 11: the hell. You know, this must have been a crime
Speaker 11: of passion. Nobody shoots in that many people, you know,
Speaker 11: that many times, unless it's like a real vendetta. They
Speaker 11: found a kid who almost got hit by a nos
Speaker 11: car and he said there was like a blondhaired girl,
Speaker 11: young girl driving it, and it's like, what what the
Speaker 11: hell happened? You know? So they go over to Darlene,
Speaker 11: his wife. They go over to his house and they
Speaker 11: questioned her like crazy. They questioned her family like crazy.
Speaker 11: Turns out that like her brother was San Francisco police officer.
Speaker 11: You know, they're his best friend. August Nory's best friend
Speaker 11: was his brother in law too, and you know, his
Speaker 11: idea of a fun night was to go to his
Speaker 11: inlaws house and watch the TV, you know, which was
Speaker 11: pretty rare back then, you know, and watch TV shows
Speaker 11: and stuff. And so the police found that, you know,
Speaker 11: there's the guy was charming and handsome and stuff like that,
Speaker 11: and uh but you know, he there was no reason
Speaker 11: for anybody to kill him, especially to shoot him so
Speaker 11: many times. And the police, this whole case was just
Speaker 11: solved on just just detective footwork, you know. That's that's
Speaker 11: how they found anything, because they had no idea who
Speaker 11: would kill this guy. And after two and a half months,
Speaker 11: you know, the case started getting quiet and and Darlene
Speaker 11: was getting hassled by the police a lot. And the
Speaker 11: cops found out that the bullets were like a target
Speaker 11: bullet and they were made in molds, and this company
Speaker 11: in New Jersey made them and sold them. And they
Speaker 11: narrowed it down to who bought them in San Francisco,
Speaker 11: you know, what store had in wholesale, and who sold
Speaker 11: them and who they were sold to. So these guys,
Speaker 11: you know, after like ten weeks, finally traced it down
Speaker 11: to this kid, this twenty three year old guy, and
Speaker 11: they you know, squeezed them a bed I guess and
Speaker 11: found out that the gun or the bullets that he
Speaker 11: had given some to Penny Boordlin. Now Penny had stolen
Speaker 11: the gun from a friend's house. She knew that her
Speaker 11: friend's father had a gun in some you know, china
Speaker 11: cabinet or something, and she managed to steal it and
Speaker 11: she went out and shot it a few times with
Speaker 11: a friend before that. So when the cops came to
Speaker 11: Borgland's house and her family home and she only lived
Speaker 11: they were three blocks from the city limits of San Francisco,
Speaker 11: and she just premun said, you know, they got there
Speaker 11: before she got home from work, and they you know,
Speaker 11: she was She's cute, you know, full figure girl, wore
Speaker 11: the pudo's skirts and freckles, and she had strawberry blond
Speaker 11: hair and a ponytail and just you know, in nineteen
Speaker 11: fifty nine girl city girl. And they found she let
Speaker 11: them search a room and they found, like use paper
Speaker 11: clippings of the murders and things like that, and they
Speaker 11: brought her in for questioning and she ended up admitting
Speaker 11: what she did, and she said that she had always
Speaker 11: wanted to kill somebody and she just had this urge
Speaker 11: for about a year and a half. She said, it
Speaker 11: was almost a sexual urge to kill somebody for several years.
Speaker 11: And you know, this is just a normal girl. You know,
Speaker 11: she worked, She graduatedrom high school and got a job
Speaker 11: as a clerk in some business in San Francisco and stuff.
Speaker 11: And I found weird is that I would have been
Speaker 11: interested if they found any existentialist books in her collection
Speaker 11: or anything, because you know, this sounds like it's right
Speaker 11: out of Elbert Komun's The Stranger, you know, where she
Speaker 11: just kills somebody to see what it does. But these
Speaker 11: things that she said is that it's just shocking. She said,
Speaker 11: I felt better her mentally after she shot him. I
Speaker 11: felt like a great burden was lifted off me. I
Speaker 11: have no bad memories about it. I always wanted to
Speaker 11: see if I could do something like this and not
Speaker 11: have it bothered me. And you know, the police, you know,
Speaker 11: these these career police detectives were just stugged.
Speaker 10: And with this as well, that the expert witnesses that
Speaker 10: you would normally think would be trotted into court to
Speaker 10: try to, you know, try to explain her behavior, even
Speaker 10: though she is adamant that she's not insane. They were
Speaker 10: in agreement there was nothing wrong with her right ecologically.
Speaker 11: Yeah, nothing wrong with the psychologically. She uh just had
Speaker 11: an overpowering urge to kill someone, and uh, you know
Speaker 11: she had to reload. That's that's the amazing thing. And
Speaker 11: you know that's just it's like, oh, what should I do?
Speaker 11: I reload and shoot him some more. And she stuck
Speaker 11: to her story and never cried, showed the emotions. She
Speaker 11: was incarcerated, she told the police matron that she hated
Speaker 11: their parents because they made her go to church. But
Speaker 11: net she had like no no family problems. She wasn't
Speaker 11: like a bad kid. Some people say that she had
Speaker 11: once brought a knife to school to show everybody, and personally,
Speaker 11: I didn't think that was that big of a deal
Speaker 11: because you know, I'm an older person and stuff.
Speaker 5: I was.
Speaker 11: It's like a family tradition in my family that when
Speaker 11: you have your first Holy Communion when you're about eight
Speaker 11: years old, the gift you get is a pocket knife.
Speaker 11: And you know, I've carried a pocket knife since I
Speaker 11: was eight years old. I used to go to school
Speaker 11: with it and ane of that stuff, and so I
Speaker 11: didn't think that it would be that unusual for somebody to,
Speaker 11: you know, do a little show and tell with their
Speaker 11: personal friends on their lunch break, like saying, hey, look
Speaker 11: what I got. You know, at least in those days
Speaker 11: or up to my time in the mid seventies, you know,
Speaker 11: that wasn't unusual for somebody to do. Kenny didn't. She
Speaker 11: said she knew that her parents were upset, and she said,
Speaker 11: that's really too bad. It's not really her concern. They
Speaker 11: had all the others come in.
Speaker 10: Yeah. What interesting too is that it again it seems
Speaker 10: to be very very liberal law here is that she's
Speaker 10: sentenced eventually to life in prison, but it made her
Speaker 10: eligible for parole in seven years. And you say that
Speaker 10: it's not really sure of the record, but it looks
Speaker 10: like it was believed that she was paroled in the
Speaker 10: mid sixties.
Speaker 11: Yes, she was. And so after this book came out,
Speaker 11: I was on the TV show Deadly Women, right, I
Speaker 11: was on two episodes of that, both from this book,
Speaker 11: and because of that, I was getting calls from the
Speaker 11: producer and they're like, well, we're as darling Nori and
Speaker 11: her daughter, and I don't know, I must have better
Speaker 11: investigative skills than most people, because they found both of
Speaker 11: them within an hour. I found their daughter who, she
Speaker 11: told me, and she actually she lives like in maybe
Speaker 11: seventy eighty miles from here, not too far away, north
Speaker 11: of the Bay Area. And I just called her out
Speaker 11: of blue and she answered, and she said that she
Speaker 11: was almost thirty years old before she found out that
Speaker 11: her stepfather wasn't her father and that and she didn't
Speaker 11: even know about what happened to her real father, so
Speaker 11: it was a big shock to her. And and not
Speaker 11: long after that, I said, well, here's my number if
Speaker 11: your mother would like to talk for this deadly woman thing,
Speaker 11: you know, it'd be nice. You know, I certainly didn't
Speaker 11: want to bother her. She you know, her horrible memories
Speaker 11: to bring up. And out of the blue she called
Speaker 11: me a couple of days later, and I'd never broke
Speaker 11: out in a cold sweat faster in my life. Yeah,
Speaker 11: I mean, I answered her with yes, ma'am and no ma'am's.
Speaker 11: And she told me the story how it was for her,
Speaker 11: and Peggy was let go. She wasn't even told, she
Speaker 11: wasn't even told when when she was sentenced and things
Speaker 11: like that. They just they just ignored her. You know,
Speaker 11: you think she's the widow of this, And yeah, she's
Speaker 11: she's a grandmother now and probably great girl mother, and
Speaker 11: uh yeah, she lived. She never talked about it for
Speaker 11: thirty years or so until that happened, and she told
Speaker 11: me that I was the only person that ever got
Speaker 11: it right. I still had some mistakes, but she said
Speaker 11: that I'm the only person that actually, you know, got
Speaker 11: most of it right. So that made me feel really good. Yeah,
Speaker 11: it was. It was really stunning, say the least. When
Speaker 11: I was don't to call my wife looked at me,
Speaker 11: she was like, what happened? It was like that bad.
Speaker 11: She thought some family member died or something. While I
Speaker 11: was a flight and covered with that. I was like
Speaker 11: because I just did not expect her to even not
Speaker 11: only call me, but she did take part of that
Speaker 11: that episode. Not too long ago, I found Penny boardin
Speaker 11: and she didn't return any of my inquiries, but I
Speaker 11: found it was like a Ventura County newspaper clipping and
Speaker 11: she was helping out at a senior citizens' home and
Speaker 11: she was dancing with somebody in this picture and it
Speaker 11: said Penny Borglin, volunteer at Ventura whatever blah blah blah
Speaker 11: dances with a patient. I was like, what, But she
Speaker 11: obviously doesn't want to talk about it, and I thought
Speaker 11: it'd be weird that she didn't change your name.
Speaker 10: So we have just enough time for one more. And
Speaker 10: I think it's inappropriate because this is one of the
Speaker 10: more shocking stories I've ever read, and this is especially
Speaker 10: for the time, and I think I would have been
Speaker 10: aware of this. I would think April eleventh, nineteen eighty
Speaker 10: one in Plumus County and the Kenny murders, and so
Speaker 10: tell us about the Sharp family and what they were
Speaker 10: doing and how they got in this position. Introduced this
Speaker 10: story for us. This is an incredibly wild story.
Speaker 11: Yeah it is. It is a truly troubling story, and
Speaker 11: it is still a mystery of Yeah, the Sharp family,
Speaker 11: her husband Jeans, he took a job out of state
Speaker 11: and they were down in their luck. You know, it's
Speaker 11: the eighties. Things weren't that great, and so her and
Speaker 11: her family stayed in a cabin at this resort called
Speaker 11: the Ketty Resort. It's it would be I don't know,
Speaker 11: maybe one hundred and fifty miles north of Sacramento, right
Speaker 11: in the mountains. So it used to be a resort
Speaker 11: where train would take people from San Francisco and they
Speaker 11: would stop there, and you know, it got run down
Speaker 11: after a while because of cars and people were able
Speaker 11: to go on their own without the trade. And it
Speaker 11: is way out there. I still haven't even been out
Speaker 11: in that area. I've lived in California for fifteen years.
Speaker 11: I've been all over it, sty haven't been out there.
Speaker 11: It's it's in the in kind of the foothills of
Speaker 11: the Sierra Nevadas. So you know, they were renting out
Speaker 11: the cabins the people to live there because you know,
Speaker 11: the tourist season, the tourists just didn't come out there anymore,
Speaker 11: so they were living there. And this is just so strange.
Speaker 11: Her son and a friend of his and they're just teenagers,
Speaker 11: and they were goofing around at the end of a
Speaker 11: Friday night and then they thought, we'll go to this
Speaker 11: other town, see if there's a party, a town called Quincy,
Speaker 11: which actually another very horrible crime happened there. Later, they
Speaker 11: hitchhiked down there and went to you know, a cagger
Speaker 11: party out in the woods, and you know, had a
Speaker 11: couple of beers and so they smoked some weed and
Speaker 11: then they hitchhiked back. They're to uh Keddy and you
Speaker 11: know in that area. The cops. The cops know everybody,
Speaker 11: you know, that's it's not many people live there, and
Speaker 11: so they go to uh they come back home, and
Speaker 11: then the next day the police find this horrible crime scene.
Speaker 11: The entire family was butchered and beaten to death and
Speaker 11: tied with electrical cord and duct tape. They were all
Speaker 11: beaten to a pulp, multiple stab wounds. They used. Whoever
Speaker 11: did this used you know, household articles that were just
Speaker 11: there already, a steak knife, butcher knives, you know, hammers
Speaker 11: and stuff like that. Blades were broken in them and stuff,
Speaker 11: and they killed their mother. They was having these kids
Speaker 11: were having to sleep over there too, and so she
Speaker 11: had some neighbor kids there. They didn't hear anything. Her
Speaker 11: daughter was out of sleepover and she came back home
Speaker 11: and she found her mom. She found the two friends,
Speaker 11: John and Dana, beaten to death. The kids that were
Speaker 11: the younger kids that were staying over were fine near
Speaker 11: in the back room, but one of their daughters was missing,
Speaker 11: thirteen year old Tina. So this house is just covered
Speaker 11: in blood. This is a you know, tranquil place. And
Speaker 11: the cops came and I don't know if the cops
Speaker 11: did a bad job, you know, had they should have
Speaker 11: called the state police in to help, but you know
Speaker 11: it was a horrible crime. And you know, these two
Speaker 11: kids slipped food at a toddler and two adolescent kids
Speaker 11: and see anything that happened. It's never been solved. There's
Speaker 11: been over four thousand hours of investigation. There's been a
Speaker 11: lot of speculation. They have no idea what had happened.
Speaker 11: They eventually found Tina's body by a out in the
Speaker 11: Mountain's feather Falls in Butte County, which would be another
Speaker 11: couple hundred miles away. They found her body in nineteen
Speaker 11: eighty four. Does their scoutler means sixty miles north of Ketty.
Speaker 11: It's never been solved. A few years ago they tore
Speaker 11: down the cabin because there are so many sightseers and
Speaker 11: lookie loose going over there. I personally have a friend
Speaker 11: of mine who has this website, the Countess Despair, and
Speaker 11: it's always about all things murder, and she went there
Speaker 11: and did a whole photo thing on it. They've never caught.
Speaker 11: They don't know. They said it could have been a
Speaker 11: hobo jumping out the train, but it also could have
Speaker 11: been the kids. The boys might have been hitchhiking and
Speaker 11: person that picked them up the kid said, Hey, come
Speaker 11: on over at our house or something like that, and
Speaker 11: that's what he happened. But somebody just totally went berserk
Speaker 11: in this small town. There's a guy who's been making
Speaker 11: videos about it for quite a few years, and when
Speaker 11: I had a website, he used to comment on it
Speaker 11: quite often. I've talked to other people and they said
Speaker 11: that he had become so obsessed about it that, you know,
Speaker 11: a lot of people don't even talk to him anymore
Speaker 11: because it's like the only thing you can talk about
Speaker 11: is trying to solve this case. Never solved it.
Speaker 10: Yeah, it does seem to dominate some people's lives in
Speaker 10: some of these cases. They gets so interested and the
Speaker 10: amateur spleuth comes out of them. And I and had
Speaker 10: that phenomenon with Hunting a psychopath, Easter, AIA rapist, original Nightstock,
Speaker 10: again a California case. It captivated Californians and Americans and
Speaker 10: everyone else for years, but especially people in that area.
Speaker 10: And again, unsolved really really does drive people mental. If
Speaker 10: it's never mind, we never understand the psychopathic, the killer's mind,
Speaker 10: but we really don't understand when we don't even apprehend
Speaker 10: the person's or persons. So very incredible tale. And I
Speaker 10: and yeah, incredible unsolved case. You did mention in that
Speaker 10: story as well that there was all kinds of finger pointing,
Speaker 10: and but there also was talk of satanism. Was there
Speaker 10: any ritualistic evidence? Was there any evidence of ritualistic murder
Speaker 10: or that was there anything like that that you found?
Speaker 11: No, the you know, in rural areas, people tend to
Speaker 11: believe more in Satanism and things like that, and it's
Speaker 11: always an easy, easy thing to point out. But once
Speaker 11: I'm wrong. I don't believe that there was any kind
Speaker 11: of Satanism involved in it. It was I personally, I
Speaker 11: think that the murderers were done by an opportunist thought
Speaker 11: that there might be money or something, and these people
Speaker 11: were poor, and he took the thirteen year old to
Speaker 11: probably torture and murder. I don't know if I'll ever
Speaker 11: find this case. They tore down the house.
Speaker 10: No, it doesn't again, it doesn't it. You know, I
Speaker 10: hate to say, it doesn't make that much logical sense
Speaker 10: for somebody to be picking someone up, but then that
Speaker 10: it lends themselves to be again an opportunity for maybe robbery,
Speaker 10: unlikely people to be robbed, and then this you do
Speaker 10: talk about this incredible overkill, which seems.
Speaker 11: To not.
Speaker 10: Again if it was robbery or opportunity, still there was
Speaker 10: just it seems to be a real slaughter house this place,
Speaker 10: wasn't it.
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's it's o explainable why or how it even happened. Also,
Speaker 11: the Cappins were all very close together, like less than
Speaker 11: six feet from each other, you know, because it was
Speaker 11: like a summer resort place, and no one heard anything,
Speaker 11: which I think that maybe the neighbors should have been
Speaker 11: looked at a little more. You know, it's been thirty
Speaker 11: years now, who know, its a thirty been alive. But
Speaker 11: if I was a police detective, I would have definitely
Speaker 11: really pressured the closest neighbors.
Speaker 10: But it does seem that a combination of things, the time,
Speaker 10: the small town resources from a county sheriff's department, and
Speaker 10: also just that there really wasn't Again we didn't have
Speaker 10: the benefit of the blood typing. Was just that they
Speaker 10: could see that it was the family's blood all over
Speaker 10: the walls, and they couldn't see any other blood types.
Speaker 10: It was blood type.
Speaker 12: Oh.
Speaker 10: But again, if it they found another blood type that
Speaker 10: wouldn't tell him much really, but it would tell him.
Speaker 10: It would give him a little bit more of an indication.
Speaker 10: But again, it seemed like there was a stark, a
Speaker 10: dramatic lack of evidence, even for that time, because we
Speaker 10: talk about historical crimes, so it seemed like an incredible
Speaker 10: lack of any kind of evidence that would lead to
Speaker 10: anything else.
Speaker 11: You know, it could have just been dumb luck for
Speaker 11: the killer or killers that they didn't leave any evidence
Speaker 11: in such a violent scene. Yeah, you know, because they
Speaker 11: all fought too for the most part, especially the mother.
Speaker 11: And you know, you would think out in the quiet
Speaker 11: mountains that the neighbors would have heard. That's I mean,
Speaker 11: the guy had left the place through the back door,
Speaker 11: which was on a hill, so there were stairs going down,
Speaker 11: and they found a bloodprint there or something, but they
Speaker 11: couldn't come up with anything. Yeah.
Speaker 10: Well, you say that there was no evidence of Satanism,
Speaker 10: But what I got to say is that, you know,
Speaker 10: the evil that these people perpetrate, and this person or
Speaker 10: person's perpetrated is certainly ranks right up there anyway, that
Speaker 10: even if it's don't believe in the mythological satan at
Speaker 10: least that entity and theory. You know, if we were
Speaker 10: to look at it, they'd be awfully proud of that
Speaker 10: kind of murder and mayhem and mystery and horror in
Speaker 10: a little small town. That's certain.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 10: And the poor girl, Sheila fourteen, and she discovers the
Speaker 10: carnage of her family.
Speaker 11: Yeah, you know, I wonder what it's like for her now.
Speaker 11: I'm working on a story right now, writing my new book.
Speaker 11: And the children were involved. They weren't involved, but they
Speaker 11: were there afterwards, And I found some things that she
Speaker 11: had written on some old old websites for like two
Speaker 11: thousand and six, and I felt bad for her just
Speaker 11: with that because it was like a crime thing. And
Speaker 11: she was like, hey, I'd really like to talk to
Speaker 11: some other people that experienced having their parents murdered or
Speaker 11: their you know, especially by their own mother. And I
Speaker 11: just thought, oh, being that just you know what a
Speaker 11: horrible thing, especially if your mother killed your father or something.
Speaker 11: You know, how could you deal with that? You're like
Speaker 11: an instant orphan.
Speaker 10: Well, absolutely. And it's discouraging to me is when, especially
Speaker 10: in this country, but when the murderer, perpetrator of hainus
Speaker 10: crimes is in court and then trots out the sob
Speaker 10: story of the abuse or the verbal abuse or the
Speaker 10: neglect or they didn't know their parents. And yet these
Speaker 10: other people seemed to have to in this again in
Speaker 10: bizarro world, where they have to adapt, they have to
Speaker 10: rehabilitate themselves, and they have to you know, continue basically
Speaker 10: despite this PTSD, this trauma, this depression. You know, yet
Speaker 10: somehow us I think by a lot of people don't
Speaker 10: shed a tear for killers and rapists and pedophile They
Speaker 10: just don't because too much time has to be spent.
Speaker 10: I think just makes sense that you would shed a
Speaker 10: tear or less perverbably you would be more concerned about
Speaker 10: the victim and the victims' families and those impacted by
Speaker 10: these perpetrators.
Speaker 11: Yeah, and you know, we all know people that grew
Speaker 11: up with a very you know, violent home life and stuff.
Speaker 11: I didn't grow up in exactly, you know, leave it
Speaker 11: to beaver world. You know, my parents were first and
Speaker 11: second immigrace a grands to America. They u still had
Speaker 11: a lot of old world thoughts, and you know, my
Speaker 11: mom used to hit us with a belt and all
Speaker 11: that stuff, and I thought it was normal until I
Speaker 11: became an adult. And was talking to other people and
Speaker 11: I'm like, yeah, my mom would come out with a
Speaker 11: belt and beat me. And they were like, oh my god.
Speaker 12: You know.
Speaker 11: My brother said once that, you know, it's like we
Speaker 11: could all grown up to be serial killers, but we didn't.
Speaker 10: You know, I don't buy into that. That's another thing
Speaker 10: I just don't buy into. I really don't think that
Speaker 10: the normalization of these uber deviant personalities is constructive at all,
Speaker 10: thinking that we have something most people, vast majority of
Speaker 10: people have anything in common with a person has a
Speaker 10: capacity to kill, torture, rape, dismember, and then go for lunch.
Speaker 10: There's no way anybody's going to convince me, and certainly
Speaker 10: not a team of self serving psychiatrists or want to
Speaker 10: be psychologists that somehow we have something in common with
Speaker 10: these people. Oh, we all have the capacity to kill.
Speaker 11: Under the right circumstances. No, we don't.
Speaker 10: I don't believe that. I don't see any proof of
Speaker 10: that whatsoever. Ever, we likely have a hard time defending
Speaker 10: ourselves even when we should be righteous about that. And
Speaker 10: so what do we do? I mean, vigilante we always
Speaker 10: talk about, well, there would be a risk of the
Speaker 10: vigilante justice, but it doesn't happen anymore. There's outrage, but
Speaker 10: there's there's not that. So I don't think I think
Speaker 10: people have to rethink this, despite I don't have degrees
Speaker 10: behind my name, but I think that there I could
Speaker 10: assemble a lot of evidence to prove my case in
Speaker 10: that we don't all have the capacity to kill. And
Speaker 10: what's unique about killers and rapists and pedophiles is their
Speaker 10: capacity to do crimes that are clearly outlawed by society,
Speaker 10: not frowned upon, outlawed. Everyone knows the line, yep, and
Speaker 10: everyone knows what it is. And these people, these losers,
Speaker 10: want to transgress for whatever reason. I can't figure them out.
Speaker 10: I'm sure they couldn't figure them out, and I'm sure
Speaker 10: a psychiatrist in an hour or two or two years
Speaker 10: can't figure them out either. But that capacity to kill,
Speaker 10: that capacity to go over that line over and over
Speaker 10: and over again, is not a mental illness that we
Speaker 10: should excuse or we should think that we have something
Speaker 10: in common with These people are I think any true
Speaker 10: crime writer would agree these people are unique. These killers
Speaker 10: are unique and should not be I mean, certainly there's
Speaker 10: murders that seem more understandable, regardless I don't think the
Speaker 10: vast majority of people have the ability to kill impulsively,
Speaker 10: kill as a product of rage, but then sit down
Speaker 10: and calculate the dismostmer and disposal of that body and
Speaker 10: then their cover story. That is unique, and I think
Speaker 10: that should be reserved for these kinds of people. And
Speaker 10: there's nothing that reading hundreds of true crime books has
Speaker 10: told me otherwise that these people are truly unique. And
Speaker 10: there's just degrees of evil, as Michael Stone has said
Speaker 10: on his program, you know, just different degrees. That's my
Speaker 10: idea anyway.
Speaker 11: Yeah, and you know, sure there are some people who
Speaker 11: you know, maybe their father or you know, their parents
Speaker 11: or somebody was completely evil and that's their their template
Speaker 11: for life. But to use that as a template, you know,
Speaker 11: for how you are is you know, that's no excuse
Speaker 11: because there's just so many people out there in the
Speaker 11: world that had the worst life imaginable, and they don't
Speaker 11: go around killing people either. Dozens of friends. I have
Speaker 11: one friend right now, he's like getting his PhD at
Speaker 11: like age fifty seven, and he was like kicked out
Speaker 11: of his house when he was like fourteen, lived down
Speaker 11: the streets an arbor. You know, it was an alcoholic
Speaker 11: and drug addict and all this stuff, you know, and
Speaker 11: now he's you know, getting like a medical degree. You know,
Speaker 11: when well this that China logic was it would be, oh,
Speaker 11: well he should have been like a serial killer.
Speaker 10: No, I don't. I think there's no correlation. I think
Speaker 10: that given my understanding of what a lawyer will say,
Speaker 10: can say, and believes he should say, is that those
Speaker 10: mitigating factors are provided by his client without doing any
Speaker 10: research as as to whether those claims are true or not.
Speaker 10: In my particular case I was involved in, it just
Speaker 10: made claims of abuse for the against allegations against the
Speaker 10: step brother that was still alive. There was never any
Speaker 10: investigation whatsoever. And the mother so and yet the mother
Speaker 10: was the person that adopted him into his family, and
Speaker 10: from the person that couldn't take care of him, these
Speaker 10: people took care of him. So what I say is
Speaker 10: that I think that the mitigating factors, the talk, the
Speaker 10: allegations of abuse, at least in the cases that I
Speaker 10: know of, they don't have to be substantiated whatsoever. So
Speaker 10: are they real evidence of anything? And so what would
Speaker 10: I say If I was charged and alleged to have
Speaker 10: done something, then I would give the most viable excuse
Speaker 10: I could possibly give to my lawyer, and he would
Speaker 10: trot it out in that courtroom. Yet it doesn't seem
Speaker 10: to make any sense. There's a correlation between sexual abuse
Speaker 10: and then that person becoming an abuser a rapist, when
Speaker 10: if you looked at the thousands and millions of women
Speaker 10: who are raped, there is not one scintilla of evidence
Speaker 10: that those women, even a small minority, go on to
Speaker 10: be rapists or sexual abusers. So again again, then what
Speaker 10: you what can you conclude? Well, it's only men, And
Speaker 10: then it becomes now we all get included, all men
Speaker 10: because we have some testosterone or genetic So it's genetic,
Speaker 10: but so so Hitler. So so now we wall up
Speaker 10: Germany because it's genetic. Right, Gazism is genetic, you know,
Speaker 10: so organic brain disease. After the fact, they go, yeah,
Speaker 10: well he did fall in his head. I you know,
Speaker 10: I'm fifty six years old. I know all my friends
Speaker 10: fell on their heads too.
Speaker 11: Yeah.
Speaker 10: You play hockey, you play football, you hit your kid. Yeah,
Speaker 10: so GI give a lawyer a chance, And there's a
Speaker 10: myriad of excuses and defenses after the fact. That's what
Speaker 10: psychiatrists can do. And psychologists after the fact assemble this
Speaker 10: odd behavior, something that looks like and again, it's a
Speaker 10: dangerous slippery slope because in the end, someone's dead, someone's responsible.
Speaker 10: There is that carnage, and as your books point out,
Speaker 10: once upon a time, how we dealt with this was
Speaker 10: just a rope a rope and a quick trial, and
Speaker 10: that was how justice was done. So we've come a
Speaker 10: long way. I don't believe in the death penalty, but
Speaker 10: I do believe in people taking responsibility, and I don't
Speaker 10: I do not appreciate the move towards the normalization of murder.
Speaker 10: It is never normal and should not be treated as well.
Speaker 10: They're likely not to reoffend. If we base that in
Speaker 10: every bit of law, then no one would ever go
Speaker 10: and no one would ever stay because that would that's
Speaker 10: not the barometer it is. It should be at least
Speaker 10: safety and ensuring safety.
Speaker 11: So yeah, I totally agree. It's you know, do we
Speaker 11: have time for the death house and Davis, because that's
Speaker 11: the case where we're just out of the blue, you know,
Speaker 11: like I killed his entire family.
Speaker 10: Let's talk about death house and Davis. That's one of
Speaker 10: the cases I wanted to talk about and we've handled
Speaker 10: everything else. So let's talk about death house.
Speaker 11: So pretty short when it happened in nineteen seventy two,
Speaker 11: and Davis. Davis is the home of the University of California, Davis.
Speaker 11: It's one of the most outstanding agricultural science veterinarian schools
Speaker 11: in the world. People come from all over the world
Speaker 11: to go to school there. And you know, Davis has
Speaker 11: always been They were like the first town to have
Speaker 11: bicycle paths, like in the nineteen fifties or something. They've
Speaker 11: always been this forward thinking place. So this professor at
Speaker 11: you see Davis, and he worked his way up. He
Speaker 11: was in his forties. Me had worked as way up,
Speaker 11: mopping floors and working his way to getting his PhD.
Speaker 11: And he ended up becoming a professor. He worked on on.
Speaker 7: DDT.
Speaker 11: He was the guy that put together that DDT was
Speaker 11: making egg shells of predator birds. Uh right, too fragile, right,
Speaker 11: So he's the guy that figured this out. And he
Speaker 11: had this old beautiful farm on horses and stables and
Speaker 11: all these outbuildings and stuff, and just on the outside
Speaker 11: of Davis right now, it's in the middle of Davis,
Speaker 11: and him and his wife separated and he just moved
Speaker 11: to an apartment down the street not too far and
Speaker 11: he went back to his house and killed his entire family,
Speaker 11: all of his kids. And yeah, it was just just horrible,
Speaker 11: you know. He h. He killed his three children, and
Speaker 11: one of them was a young teenage boy who was
Speaker 11: coming home from a dance. And you know, that's just like,
Speaker 11: I'm the same age as that kid was. I remember,
Speaker 11: you know, going to those school dances in nineteen seventy
Speaker 11: two and stuff. And he came home about eleven thirty
Speaker 11: and he bashed his head and when he came in,
Speaker 11: he dragged all the bodies upstairs and master bedroom, laid
Speaker 11: him faith up, and then poured gasoline all over the
Speaker 11: house and burned it up. And I went to that place.
Speaker 11: It still exists. It was just sold about maybe five
Speaker 11: years ago. And when I was writing this book, I
Speaker 11: came across that story. First, I stopped in my car
Speaker 11: and went out there to take a look. The house
Speaker 11: was completely burnt down in big oak trees around it
Speaker 11: were still burnt and scorched, and the stables, the barns
Speaker 11: that were all there. I found evidence of some graduates,
Speaker 11: students who had squatted there there with their books and
Speaker 11: notes and other stuff. They thought that was kind of funny,
Speaker 11: But yeah, it was this beautiful place. And now they're
Speaker 11: going to they're going to keep the barn and a
Speaker 11: couple other of the outbuildings that were in good shape,
Speaker 11: and they're going to build like a green community subdivision there.
Speaker 11: But the owners, it was his wife's mother, and her
Speaker 11: family ended up getting the title to the estate and
Speaker 11: they just left it as it was for all those years,
Speaker 11: and they ended up once the mother died, her surviving
Speaker 11: kids sold the place for a lot of money, actually
Speaker 11: five million dollars. But when I went there, there was
Speaker 11: still you know, post hitched the horse up to, you know,
Speaker 11: and just like there was still evidence of like their
Speaker 11: family that lived there old twice, you know, in sheds
Speaker 11: and things like that. And it was just one of
Speaker 11: the most eerie places I've ever been. And then while
Speaker 11: I was going through all these like buildings that were
Speaker 11: falling down, I realized I didn't tell anybody I was
Speaker 11: going here. I didn't even I didn't even tell my
Speaker 11: wife because it was just like, oh, I gotta go
Speaker 11: check it out. You Davis is twenty miles away, and
Speaker 11: I was like, oh god, I could like fall through
Speaker 11: on of these floors here and they'll find me like
Speaker 11: six years from now, you know. But I think that
Speaker 11: possibly the reason why the professor just wigged out was
Speaker 11: that he was around DDT and all these other chemicals
Speaker 11: that he did with his experiments interesting could have poisoned
Speaker 11: poisoned him or just made them nuts.
Speaker 10: There was no other evidence. There's no other evidence. Like today,
Speaker 10: this familia side would be lots of times it's the again,
Speaker 10: the patriarch is having problems financially or something is going
Speaker 10: to hit his legacy or his health, and so in
Speaker 10: a weird, you know, weird thought process, they'd say, well,
Speaker 10: I want to take the whole family with me. So
Speaker 10: there was no evidence of anything that we would associate
Speaker 10: with these more recent murders of the last twenty years
Speaker 10: where somebody destroys their whole family.
Speaker 11: Yeah, no, he was. Actually they had a pretty good
Speaker 11: separation and that he was there and you know it
Speaker 11: was with the kids and cleaning the barns and you know,
Speaker 11: helping out there all the time. It's just they were
Speaker 11: just taking a break and the students didn't see anything
Speaker 11: different with them, and it just came we had completely
Speaker 11: out of the Blue.
Speaker 10: Yeah. I guess again, this book reinforces that murder doesn't
Speaker 10: change too much. It's just the characters and the places
Speaker 10: and the victims, but very much the same motivations. I
Speaker 10: guess people don't change that much. I guess over the decades,
Speaker 10: over the centuries, but very very interesting. I want to
Speaker 10: thank you very much for coming on and talking about
Speaker 10: death in California. For those people that would like to
Speaker 10: look for other work. Do you have a website and
Speaker 10: if they want to contact you.
Speaker 11: Yeah, by webside I took down. And if they want
Speaker 11: to contact me, I'm probably the easiest guy in the
Speaker 11: world to find on the internet. I have a Facebook page,
Speaker 11: I have a Facebook author page. Yeah, I'm a very
Speaker 11: easy person to find. And I always enjoy hearing from
Speaker 11: people who either have an opinion about something, or they
Speaker 11: tell me straight out I'm wrong, or they share a
Speaker 11: story with me. I always appreciate that I had in
Speaker 11: in the California Justice Book, I wrote about the break
Speaker 11: brothers who had shot a bunch of police officers and
Speaker 11: were underrun and uh, I've had relatives of his write
Speaker 11: me and and say you know, yeah, they were they
Speaker 11: were bad guys. And other ones would say not. And
Speaker 11: and one guy accused me the saying that they were
Speaker 11: actually innocent and blah blah blah. And I wrote back
Speaker 11: the guy, I said, if they were actually innocent, I
Speaker 11: would have written about it. It would have made a
Speaker 11: better story, you know. I mean, it's not my job
Speaker 11: to to to make history the way I wanted to.
Speaker 11: That's not I don't know if any historian that would
Speaker 11: ever uh not put in information that he found why
Speaker 11: or she found while they were ready. You know, after
Speaker 11: it's done sometimes you find out things. But when you're
Speaker 11: when you're rating it, you look for you know, you
Speaker 11: want to find out, could these guys been innocent? You know,
Speaker 11: that's a better story, you know, the way of setting
Speaker 11: history straight. There There was nothing I saw that made
Speaker 11: those guys seem menicent at all.
Speaker 10: But well, just people people involved hate to think that
Speaker 10: their loved one is a killer.
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's going to drive it.
Speaker 12: I Mean.
Speaker 10: The saddest cases that I see are the bum that
Speaker 10: can't you know, he can't admit that he's even though
Speaker 10: he's been convicted, his appeals are finished, and yet he's
Speaker 10: still got to drag his family to the prison on
Speaker 10: this thing that he's innocent, you know, and and what
Speaker 10: is the family supposed to do? Yeah, you know, what
Speaker 10: are they going to They're they're doomed either way. They
Speaker 10: know the truth, they're doomed. They they lived a lie,
Speaker 10: They're doomed. It's it's such a sad these losers. And
Speaker 10: that's what these people. And you have an inner book
Speaker 10: as well. Some of these guys are so brave, but
Speaker 10: then they're crying and at when they're going into the
Speaker 10: gas you know, they're reluctantly being dragged into the gas
Speaker 10: chamber after they were people torturing kids. So it's incredible
Speaker 10: ever changes that the cowardice of some of these people,
Speaker 10: uh so very it's fascinating. So I want to thank
Speaker 10: you very much for coming on and talking about your
Speaker 10: equally interesting and fascinating book, Death in California. I want
Speaker 10: to thank you very much, David Kolchik for coming on
Speaker 10: once again. Thank you, have a great evening.
Speaker 11: Thank you very much, thank you.
Speaker 10: Good night,