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<v Speaker 1>So quantum computer is what's known. They have certain algorithms

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<v Speaker 1>that allow to break these cryptographic methods right, and people

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<v Speaker 1>are word to your point. You know, would this chain

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<v Speaker 1>be affected? Would this mechanism be affected.

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<v Speaker 2>and if you'd like to learn more, please visit the

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<v Speaker 2>link in the description. Welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>your home for cryptocurrency news and interviews. I'm your host,

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<v Speaker 2>Tony Edward and my guest today is Sergei Gorbanoff, who

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<v Speaker 2>is the co founder of axlr Protocol and the CEO

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<v Speaker 2>of interrop Labs. Sergey is also an associate professor at

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<v Speaker 2>the University of Waterloo. Sergei, great to have you on.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 2>Sergei, you have an extensive background with crypto and blockchains.

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<v Speaker 2>You are on the founding team of Algoran and I

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<v Speaker 2>have a lot of questions for you. I want to

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<v Speaker 2>get your perspective on many of the things happening in

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<v Speaker 2>the crypto market. But before we get there, tell us

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<v Speaker 2>a bit about yourself, where you're from and what's your

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<v Speaker 2>professional background.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my professional background is distributed systems and cryptography. The

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<v Speaker 1>PGM T. Afterwards, spend a little bit of time at

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<v Speaker 1>Universal Waterloo kind of doing a lot of research and

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<v Speaker 1>pryptography at Blockchain, you know, distributed Systems, worked on the

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<v Speaker 1>Outground project, as you mentioned, kind of helped to design

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<v Speaker 1>that and take that to the market, and then afterwards

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<v Speaker 1>been focusing on the interoperability problem in the in the

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<v Speaker 1>blockchain space.

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<v Speaker 2>And what was your first encounter with crypto or blockchain

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<v Speaker 2>or what was your AHA moment?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my first and Congress were at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>grad school, so I was doing work in kind of

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<v Speaker 1>more advanced cryptography. I had my I set on sort

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<v Speaker 1>of graduation and had everything up for the thesis, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it's pretty much done with it, so it's

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<v Speaker 1>looking around for new challenges, new problems too to solve.

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<v Speaker 1>There was a small bitcoin club that Ron Rivest, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>one of the founders of ours a protocol Brandt mit

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<v Speaker 1>So I joined that were reading some white papers and

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<v Speaker 1>the topic became very very interesting. Of course, kind of

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<v Speaker 1>quickly realized some of the technical you know, limitations of

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<v Speaker 1>bitcoin and ethereum like protocols, and so we started to

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<v Speaker 1>think about how do we do how do we do

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<v Speaker 1>better right, and how do we design something that could

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<v Speaker 1>scale further along And that's where you know, some of

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<v Speaker 1>the early ideas behind the out Ground protocol with you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Sylvia mcali were originated and yeah, kind of took it

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<v Speaker 1>from there.

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<v Speaker 2>And how long were you at Algoran? Obviously that's one

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<v Speaker 2>of the bigger projects in the crypto industry, and Sylvia

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<v Speaker 2>I've heard him speak over the years and al Grand

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<v Speaker 2>certainly is doing things differently. You know, how did you

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<v Speaker 2>end up working there and what we were some of

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<v Speaker 2>your contribute contributions.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean we did a lot of work there, so,

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<v Speaker 1>like originally it was a sort of research type of

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<v Speaker 1>a project, right, we wrote like very first white paper

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<v Speaker 1>with Silvia. You know, it wasn't kind of a called

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<v Speaker 1>out Grand at the time it was live twenty fourteen

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<v Speaker 1>or twenty fifteen. You know, for a few years after that,

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<v Speaker 1>the blockchain crypto space was still you know, not as developed, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and people were still thinking what to do. I remember

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<v Speaker 1>actually like some first emails from Metallic at the time

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<v Speaker 1>when they read like our manuscript war Oh, it's great

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<v Speaker 1>to see like you guys thinking about some of the

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<v Speaker 1>similar ideas that was thinking, you know, at the theory,

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<v Speaker 1>like they already realized that the theorem would have to

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<v Speaker 1>migrate to proof of steak from proof of work and

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, he's on us some kind of nice

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<v Speaker 1>notes on like you know, highlighting similarities in the thought

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<v Speaker 1>process and you know what needs to evolve for those

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<v Speaker 1>proof of steake systems too, you know, to become reality. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>the concept of proof of say, didn't exispect the right

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<v Speaker 1>it was. It was all being being originated. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>so I think after I finished school, I think Silva

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<v Speaker 1>tried to get kind of funding for the outground project.

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<v Speaker 1>It took a little bit of time until the markets

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<v Speaker 1>kind of picked up, until like twenty twenty seventeen is

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<v Speaker 1>when I believe kind of the ico boom came again. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>you had good funding that was that was available, So

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<v Speaker 1>we'll get some funding for the out ground protocol. And

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<v Speaker 1>like a few of us, you know, from MIT and

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<v Speaker 1>Sylvia kind of came together in Boston and started to

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<v Speaker 1>you know, continue to design, right, continue to figure out

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<v Speaker 1>what it actually looks like as a product, the blockchain stack,

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<v Speaker 1>whether smare contracts, look around it. Yeah, and then you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I think beyond like the al ground itself, we've done

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<v Speaker 1>some nice contributions to the broader ecosystem. So as an example,

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<v Speaker 1>that led centriization of kind of a BLS signatures with

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<v Speaker 1>a team that was you know, at our Grand and

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<v Speaker 1>the few other places you know, like Dan Bone and

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<v Speaker 1>Stanford and some of his students at the time. So

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<v Speaker 1>and BLS signatures, if you know, is what ends up

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<v Speaker 1>being used in the theory at the proof at a

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<v Speaker 1>proof of state consensus and many other blockchain networks today.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think it was a very good project to

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<v Speaker 1>try to align everybody to the new you know, to

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<v Speaker 1>the new foundations of cryptography that it needed for those

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<v Speaker 1>systems to be efficient. And so yeah, I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a bunch of other work along the way.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, obviously you spend time at MIT and you were

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<v Speaker 2>in that those circles. But were you by any chance

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<v Speaker 2>there when current SEC chair Gary Genser who's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be former SEC chair Gary Genser soon was was there

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<v Speaker 2>I think teaching at some point, and I remember him

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<v Speaker 2>making statements about Algoran over the years that you could

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<v Speaker 2>put uber on Algoran. Were you around at the same time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was around at the same time. I believe

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<v Speaker 1>I actually gave a couple of guest lectures of the

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<v Speaker 1>Business School of Management that might see at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>So they had a good group, right, you know, Christian

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<v Speaker 1>Catalina was there. He ended up working at you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Facebook Libra and now now they have a new project

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<v Speaker 1>around bitcoin l two's. Yeah, there was quite a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of talent at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. Now talk to us about Axelar and what

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<v Speaker 2>was the goal behind starting this and what's the mission?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean the goal was really try to figure

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<v Speaker 1>out how do you help innovation at the blockchain layer

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<v Speaker 1>to continue while preserving kind of composibility across different blockchain layers, right,

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<v Speaker 1>so as to be more concrete. You know, when we

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<v Speaker 1>launched all Grand, it was very new stack right, new consensus,

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<v Speaker 1>new way to approach more contracts, transactions, kind of security.

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<v Speaker 1>As soon as we launched it, problem number one was

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<v Speaker 1>how do we connected to everything else so we can

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<v Speaker 1>bootstrap both developer activity and liquidity right, bring new assets

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<v Speaker 1>to the ecosystem, allow developers to easier migrate their users

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<v Speaker 1>or interact with applications that are built on our Grand. Ideally,

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<v Speaker 1>from our view, we would have loved to see a

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<v Speaker 1>protocol that we could just plug and play into the

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<v Speaker 1>out ground right, to be connected to like ethereum, Bitcoin,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, Ripple and like you know XRP laver and

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<v Speaker 1>like other other chains, but we couldn't find anything right,

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<v Speaker 1>there's nothing really available, and so we thought that you know, look,

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<v Speaker 1>the blockchain ecosystem is still young. We're going to continue

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<v Speaker 1>to see many other layer ones being developed and innovated

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<v Speaker 1>on right in parallel, like Solana was being built, Avalanche

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<v Speaker 1>was being built, near was being built, Polka Dot was

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<v Speaker 1>being built. You know, we didn't even talk about layer twos.

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<v Speaker 1>That all came later at the time, and so we thought,

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<v Speaker 1>look like all of those innovations are going to continue

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<v Speaker 1>to happen. People will keep on figuring out how do

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<v Speaker 1>you optimize consensus, how do you optimize smart contract language,

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<v Speaker 1>how do you maybe have your own unique kind of

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<v Speaker 1>go to market or use case that you want to

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<v Speaker 1>target and have your own you know, chain or application

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<v Speaker 1>around it. And they will need connectivity. Otherwise we just

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<v Speaker 1>continue to build siloed ecosystems right that don't talk to

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<v Speaker 1>one another. And yeah, we thought this is going to

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<v Speaker 1>be a very major problem for the ecosystem to solve.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, first year, we have to do a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of education. In the first few years, we have

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<v Speaker 1>to do a lot of education in the market around it.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, now it's a very well established, of course, problem,

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<v Speaker 1>very well established domain, and I think we still keep

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<v Speaker 1>on seeing introperability almost like one step behind innovation that

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<v Speaker 1>happens at the layer once. Right, I think there's still

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<v Speaker 1>so much work that needs to happen and the interoperability

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<v Speaker 1>layer to keep unifying the ecosystem enable simple developer, simple

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<v Speaker 1>user experiences and very exciting times.

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<v Speaker 2>I had Yeah, absolutely, And I was looking at the

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<v Speaker 2>Xlar network website and I noticed the different categories of

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<v Speaker 2>folks that are working with you guys. Enterprise wise, you

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<v Speaker 2>have Microsoft, Deutsche Bank, MasterCard, Wallet's Ledger, MetaMask and so forth, RWA,

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<v Speaker 2>Circle Ondo. So you're trying to help enterprises, wallet services

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<v Speaker 2>in different facts actions of the digital asset space be

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<v Speaker 2>able to connect with each other obviously have interoperability. And

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<v Speaker 2>would the interoperability be the movement of certain tokenized assets

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<v Speaker 2>or NFT stable coins? Is it that? Or is there

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<v Speaker 2>other use cases as well?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's kind of the use cases span dependent on

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<v Speaker 1>the application, but it's essentially unification of developer and user experiences. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So you brought up you know, token token, so as

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<v Speaker 1>an example, as a token holder, if I have a

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<v Speaker 1>stable coin like UCC. I want to and if I

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<v Speaker 1>have it on multiple chains, I don't have to think.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to have to think about it, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to see it as one token. Sure, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>it has a place on you know, different chains, incentiated

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<v Speaker 1>depend on what applications I use on those chains, but

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to have to think about it. So

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<v Speaker 1>from a wallet perspective, as a user, I want to

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<v Speaker 1>see it all abstracted. I have my tokens, I have applications.

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<v Speaker 1>No matter where that locations are, I should be able

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<v Speaker 1>to go and use them, right, and then interoperability under

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<v Speaker 1>the hood is responsible for yeah, token transfer if there

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<v Speaker 1>needs to be information transfer, if there needs to be right. So,

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<v Speaker 1>as an example, you want to deposit you're token from

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<v Speaker 1>one chain into an application on another chain, but you

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to have to just like move the token,

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<v Speaker 1>then switch a wallet, then deposit to the application and

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<v Speaker 1>have like twenty clicks in the process. Right, you want

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<v Speaker 1>to have seamless as one transaction, one click from the wallet,

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<v Speaker 1>and so you know general message passing types of primitives

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<v Speaker 1>that the interroperability allow you to do that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a streamlined the process of you interacting from the wallet

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<v Speaker 1>to multiple applications across different chains in very unified experience

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<v Speaker 1>as you were interact in on a single chain.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, I want to make sure I break this down

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<v Speaker 2>for those who are new to blockchains and crypto. So

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<v Speaker 2>does axel R have its own blockchain? Does it serve

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<v Speaker 2>as a layer two or layer three? And if axl

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<v Speaker 2>are for whatever reason and not saying will goes down,

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<v Speaker 2>does that break any of the bridges?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so great question. So first of all, actually itself,

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<v Speaker 1>you can think of it as a it is a

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<v Speaker 1>blockchain that connects out the blockchains, right, so you can

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<v Speaker 1>think of it as like you know, the mega highway

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<v Speaker 1>of highways, right, So it's a it's a transportation network.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's designed is to route messages, route tokens from

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<v Speaker 1>one chain to another in an efficient way. It is

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<v Speaker 1>powered by blockchain technology, so everything that the protocol is

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<v Speaker 1>fully decentralized, open, you know, permission less, so you can see,

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<v Speaker 1>you can audit it, you can contribute to it and

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<v Speaker 1>build connections and keep on extended this highway, right, and

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<v Speaker 1>then you know to your point what happens if acceller

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<v Speaker 1>you know, goes down. So first of all, I think

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<v Speaker 1>decentralization in the blockchain systems is what we have seen

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<v Speaker 1>to be the most robust way to make sure the

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<v Speaker 1>systems don't go down, right, and actually is the only

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<v Speaker 1>introperability product that has, like I said, fully proof of

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<v Speaker 1>state based, open consensus, open decentralized network. So we've never

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<v Speaker 1>actually had the protocol or the network itself kind of

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<v Speaker 1>go down, you know, and it has one hundred percent

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<v Speaker 1>up time. Maybe individual like transactions sometimes don't go through

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<v Speaker 1>because there are gas issues, but the network itself has

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<v Speaker 1>a full one hundred percent up time, and that's thanks

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<v Speaker 1>to the just decentralization of the network itself, right, And yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>if it starts, if something happens, you don't have enough notes,

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<v Speaker 1>because again the protocol is open, you know, you can

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<v Speaker 1>go and run your own notes and continue to operating

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<v Speaker 1>the network.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>The inclusion in the network and participation is just as

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<v Speaker 1>open as like on bitcoin and the theoryum where anybody

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<v Speaker 1>can help network make progress, and so same properties, very

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<v Speaker 1>strong liveness properties are then inherited by the actual network.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm assuming the vision is as we get the

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<v Speaker 2>next billion and people to come into crypto and making

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<v Speaker 2>it as easy as possible for them to onboard. And

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<v Speaker 2>you mentioned the interoperability. So if whether they're using JP

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<v Speaker 2>Morgan or deutstr Bank or match the card, you're running

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<v Speaker 2>behind the scenes and they don't necessarily even need to

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<v Speaker 2>know about xceller network or what's happening behind, just that

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<v Speaker 2>it works, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, I think you know. To your point. So,

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, a lot of these enterprises that you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 1>they're all looking to launch assets either on you know,

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<v Speaker 1>their own chains and then connect them to everything else outside, right,

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<v Speaker 1>or they go and they partner with existing chains like

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like x or p Ledger, like Stellar, like Suite.

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<v Speaker 1>They'll launch the assets there and they still want to

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<v Speaker 1>interoperate with either other bank chains right or enterprise chains

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<v Speaker 1>or other public chains. So they all need interoperability. But

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<v Speaker 1>to your point, for the end user, once you're beyond

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<v Speaker 1>you know, technical analysis and developer analysis that developers need

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<v Speaker 1>to validate security and robustness of all these building blocks

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<v Speaker 1>that they're using, and user just wants to be able

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<v Speaker 1>to use these new efficient rail systems right, be able

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<v Speaker 1>to be the beneficiary of it, have global settlement, cheap transactions,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, global reach, to be able to transact with

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<v Speaker 1>anybody across the world. They don't necessarily care so much

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<v Speaker 1>where the assets are, how they interact with one another,

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<v Speaker 1>how you move from one chain to another. So those

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<v Speaker 1>things are abstracted away. And I think, you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>analogies that you can make are similar to the intranet

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<v Speaker 1>right right now we have in this you know zoom call.

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<v Speaker 1>The information travels across probably over a dozen different networks

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<v Speaker 1>to allow us to do this podcast live in a

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<v Speaker 1>very seamless way, right And so it's the magnitude of

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<v Speaker 1>the of all of these networks and interconnection between all

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<v Speaker 1>of them that enables these experiences. And I think when

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<v Speaker 1>it comes to blockchain and financial assets, it's inevitable that

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to be in a very very multi chain

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<v Speaker 1>world too, and that scale is needed to support all

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<v Speaker 1>the new primitives and assets that are that are entering

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<v Speaker 1>the space. But for average user, the experience needs to

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<v Speaker 1>be a lot simpler. It's again all the way from

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<v Speaker 1>your wallet or application to the apps and the underlying

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure rails uh you know, need to be hidden.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, Does Axeler have a token and what's the

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<v Speaker 2>protocol that it's based on? You know, you mentioned proof

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<v Speaker 2>of stake earlier. What is it used with typic mechanism.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so actually has a utility governance token, right that

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<v Speaker 1>powers taken on the Excel network. It powers governance on

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<v Speaker 1>the Excel network. And yeah, the actual protocol has been

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<v Speaker 1>designed originally from the Cosmos and Tenderment consensus and then

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<v Speaker 1>we had to like customize it and modify everything from

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<v Speaker 1>the incentives you know how validators propagate information to facilitate

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<v Speaker 1>this introperability use case. And so it's been quite a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of work to design the stack to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>it is robust in the way that is. But you know,

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a COSMOS framework is actually pretty flexible. That

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<v Speaker 1>allowed us to do a lot of those changes.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you guys have some amazing partnerships and just

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<v Speaker 2>once again looking at the website and maybe you can

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<v Speaker 2>tell us a bit about, you know, your roadmap for

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five and can we expect to see more

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<v Speaker 2>enterprises of the caliber of JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank and

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<v Speaker 2>so forth coming on board.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So we recently launched a very new framework, it's

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<v Speaker 1>called the Amplifier framework that effectively changes i would say

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<v Speaker 1>interoperability landscape and takes it to the new level. And

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<v Speaker 1>what that means is that introoperability now with it becomes

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<v Speaker 1>completely permissionless, meaning that you don't necessarily have to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>talk to us as a as the builder or anybody

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<v Speaker 1>else to get connectivity of your chain to all the

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<v Speaker 1>other chains. It's fully permission less framework. It's full of

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<v Speaker 1>permission less model. And so we have an array of

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<v Speaker 1>very big partners that are building around this framework to

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<v Speaker 1>connect their stacks, right, everything from enterprises to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>some of the big public chains like Xo, b Ledger,

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<v Speaker 1>Solona Suite. There's a connection to Bitcoin being made, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a connection to stacks ecosystem being made. So I'm super

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<v Speaker 1>excited for all of those connections to go live, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>through this Amplifier framework. And I think it would essentially

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<v Speaker 1>interconnect everything everything that matters in the in the crypto space.

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<v Speaker 1>And yeah, to your point, there's there's quite a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of ongoing work with enterprises initiatives, a lot of them

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<v Speaker 1>around to organization verticals, right, So we essentially want to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that tokenization becomes as chain agnostic as possible, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And towards that end, we have just recently a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of months ago launched a product called Interchain Token Service

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<v Speaker 1>that allows you to you know, launch it token on

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<v Speaker 1>many chains at the click at one transaction. And so

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's going to be the default mode of

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<v Speaker 1>operation where people go and launch it token on all

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<v Speaker 1>the chains without having to you know, launch it at

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<v Speaker 1>one and then bringe it back and forth, which is

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<v Speaker 1>a very very old process of doing things.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, for sure, I love it. This is certainly the

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<v Speaker 2>infrastructure for the future of blockchain and a multichain world,

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<v Speaker 2>no question for you. Let's say, for whatever reason, a

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain goes away. We know not every chain will stick

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<v Speaker 2>around for the next ten to fifteen twenty years. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>say one goes away, what are the mechanisms in place

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<v Speaker 2>to then have those maybe tokenize assets then be either

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<v Speaker 2>burned or pulled out from that system and moved to

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<v Speaker 2>other blockchains.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's a great question. So you could actually use

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<v Speaker 1>products like the Interchaine Token Service that I mentioned to

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<v Speaker 1>do that, right. So it allows you to you know,

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<v Speaker 1>map either an existing token that you have and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>replicate or clone into all the other chains, right, or

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<v Speaker 1>you can mirror it across across multiple chains, or you

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<v Speaker 1>can simply you know, relaunch it with the same with

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<v Speaker 1>the same state. So yeah, once you have this interconnectivity

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a fabric, do you do you point this

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<v Speaker 1>sort of token migration, right or token clone, it becomes

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<v Speaker 1>you know, a function on top of this infrastructure, which

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<v Speaker 1>projects like interchange token service support.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm, okay, god, so that mechanisms in place. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's just a question I thought of because you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I know, not every like I said, every blockchain is

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<v Speaker 2>going to exist. There's probably going to be a handful

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<v Speaker 2>of winners, you know, right now, there's so many, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's a yeah, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Mean, I think there's like two lines of thought, right, like,

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<v Speaker 1>which is a you consolidate to a few you know,

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<v Speaker 1>big chains and like that's that's more than sufficient. And

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<v Speaker 1>then there's everything is like an app chain, right, kind

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<v Speaker 1>of l two type of type of stuff. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think the reality is that we're going to be probably

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<v Speaker 1>in a hybrid, right where we're going to have big, monolithic,

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<v Speaker 1>efficient stacks that have the best kind of composibility and

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<v Speaker 1>the best equidity that you can go and launch, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and and leverage very efficient you know, new new iterations

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<v Speaker 1>of chains like swite, you know, like stellar like, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know x RPL support thousands of transactions you know,

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<v Speaker 1>per second and things like that. But there is a

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<v Speaker 1>world where we're see more and more applications that do

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<v Speaker 1>have a product market fit launching their own chains so

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<v Speaker 1>they can customize the entire stat right, So we've seen

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<v Speaker 1>this from dy d X, We're now seeing it from

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<v Speaker 1>Uni swap. You know, we've been seeing it from you

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<v Speaker 1>know previously before that kind of a couple of years

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<v Speaker 1>ago Compound, right. Uh so so so yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 1>applications that do have a product market fit that you

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<v Speaker 1>want to customize more of the you know, rewards mechanism,

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<v Speaker 1>security mechanisms, maybe you know, liquidity mechanisms of the underlying

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<v Speaker 1>validation layer will go and launch app chains that will

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<v Speaker 1>still be interconnected to you know, these bigger, bigger chains

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<v Speaker 1>and bigger, more monolithic designs. So I'm pretty confident that

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to be in a hybrid world between those,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, I think that we're ready seeing that

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<v Speaker 1>trend where applications that have found the product market fit

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<v Speaker 1>then migrate from these monolithic chains into their own like

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<v Speaker 1>app chains and then customize more logic around those.

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<v Speaker 2>Hm. Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. So, Serge, I want

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<v Speaker 2>to get your perspective and thoughts on quantum computing. This

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<v Speaker 2>has been a big topic lately and it's impact on

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<v Speaker 2>Bigcoe and other blockchains. Given your expertise in cryptography, kind

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<v Speaker 2>of give us the lay of the land, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>do you feel there's going to be a threat here

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<v Speaker 2>too many blockchains from quantum computing?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I think quantum is still very early, right.

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<v Speaker 1>I think if you look at some of the news

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<v Speaker 1>from the last a few months from from Google of

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<v Speaker 1>the world and some of the folks like, there are

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<v Speaker 1>definitely problems and there are definitely in the right direction,

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<v Speaker 1>but thereby no by no means kind of close to

419
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:50.160
<v Speaker 1>being able to break cryptographer, right, that's used in the blockchain. So,

420
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.039
<v Speaker 1>and for those that are not aware, one of the

421
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.000
<v Speaker 1>reasons people talk so much about quantum is that all

422
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.640
<v Speaker 1>the blockchain systems rely on cryptography. Right. Cryptography is what's

423
00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:02.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, used to generate your accounts on the blockchain,

424
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:08.839
<v Speaker 1>used to sign transactions so that nobody else can can uh,

425
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:13.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, maliciously sign on your behalf right or fake transactions.

426
00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:18.079
<v Speaker 1>So cryptography is fundamental. It's used by the validation of

427
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.960
<v Speaker 1>all the of all the activity that happens. So quantum computers,

428
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.839
<v Speaker 1>what's known. They have certain algorithms that allow to break

429
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:31.759
<v Speaker 1>these cryptographic methods, right, and people are worried right to

430
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:35.359
<v Speaker 1>you to your point, you know, would this chain be

431
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:41.319
<v Speaker 1>affected with this mechanism be affected? And the reality is,

432
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:43.319
<v Speaker 1>like I said, you know, we're still quite far from

433
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:48.359
<v Speaker 1>those attacks being practical. At the same time, there by,

434
00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:54.839
<v Speaker 1>cryptographers and researchers have been ongoing efforts to design cryptography

435
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:58.960
<v Speaker 1>that's resilient to quantum algorithms. Actually, a lot of cryptography

436
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.680
<v Speaker 1>that I worked on in my graduate school is resilient

437
00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:06.839
<v Speaker 1>against quantum cryptography. There is now a NIST, which is

438
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:11.920
<v Speaker 1>a National Institute of Standardization Technology effort to standardize primitives

439
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:15.839
<v Speaker 1>that are used that will be used in this post

440
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:20.119
<v Speaker 1>quantum you know, signature and encryption algorithms. So those efforts

441
00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:23.559
<v Speaker 1>are well underway. I think we know quite well what

442
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.400
<v Speaker 1>we're doing and what those algorithms are. And I would

443
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:31.240
<v Speaker 1>see essentially a migration over the next ten years by

444
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.759
<v Speaker 1>the blockchain, and not only blockchain systems, like all the

445
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.119
<v Speaker 1>financial systems would be affected when the quantum computers come

446
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:41.599
<v Speaker 1>to reality. So I do think those threats you know,

447
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.920
<v Speaker 1>need to be everybody needs to be mindful of them.

448
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.359
<v Speaker 1>There's no reason to panic or do anything, you know, overnight,

449
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.640
<v Speaker 1>but you should think about, you know, how would my algorth,

450
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.640
<v Speaker 1>how would my system blockchain or traditional financial system migrate

451
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:58.480
<v Speaker 1>to those algorithms, and what the effects of them would

452
00:26:58.519 --> 00:27:02.680
<v Speaker 1>be on my overall security, and you know, have a

453
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:05.480
<v Speaker 1>plan in place to over the next I would say

454
00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:07.880
<v Speaker 1>a decade migrate. I don't know where it's going to be,

455
00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, a little bit less or more on the timeframe,

456
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.680
<v Speaker 1>but you know, it's it's it's a multi year project

457
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.039
<v Speaker 1>and we're definitely make at least you know, I would

458
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.200
<v Speaker 1>say ten years. This is a guess right now. I

459
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:25.480
<v Speaker 1>think it's a little big guess on everyone's part. But

460
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 1>there's quite a lot of stuff that has to happen

461
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:31.000
<v Speaker 1>for those two to actually affect you know, blockchain systems

462
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:31.960
<v Speaker 1>that we use today.

463
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh for sure. And and I'm assuming the logical step

464
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:39.519
<v Speaker 2>for many of these folks with nodes or whene it's

465
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:43.880
<v Speaker 2>mining equipment that they would upgrade with the same technology.

466
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:46.480
<v Speaker 2>Right maybe there's a bit of a lag, but if

467
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:49.319
<v Speaker 2>you have this respective chip from the video or whoever,

468
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:52.319
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to build mining equipment around there, or I'm

469
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:55.200
<v Speaker 2>going to build computers that can run proper nodes with

470
00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:57.880
<v Speaker 2>that with that chip, right.

471
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, exactly right. And you know, to your point,

472
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:07.200
<v Speaker 1>I think the security threads of these quantum computers really

473
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:11.400
<v Speaker 1>come in like two folds. You have to analyze the

474
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.720
<v Speaker 1>consensus itself and you know, ask yourself, am I vulnerable

475
00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:18.160
<v Speaker 1>or does anything have to change with it? So, as

476
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.000
<v Speaker 1>an example, Bitcoin uses you know, of course proof of

477
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.960
<v Speaker 1>work consensus, but it's mostly using hash functions, and these

478
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:30.559
<v Speaker 1>hash functions are not vulnerable to quantum attacks to the

479
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:35.160
<v Speaker 1>same extent as signature schemes. Okay, so you will need

480
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.200
<v Speaker 1>to adjust parameters of bitcoin to make sure it keeps

481
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:42.319
<v Speaker 1>on minding efficiently, you know, and nobody can can kind

482
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:45.640
<v Speaker 1>of create forks at a fraction of a cost, but

483
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.319
<v Speaker 1>that's a privator change at the consensus algorithm. Nothing changes

484
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.759
<v Speaker 1>to the Bitcoin consensus algorithm itself. And then there are

485
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:57.279
<v Speaker 1>signatures used by the bitcoin community right to sign transaction

486
00:28:57.359 --> 00:28:59.640
<v Speaker 1>that actually sends the funds from you know, from you

487
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.480
<v Speaker 1>to me, right, and those things will be vulnerable to

488
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:06.839
<v Speaker 1>those quantum attacks. And then the bitcoin community and the

489
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:09.160
<v Speaker 1>communities will have to migrate to a new type of

490
00:29:09.319 --> 00:29:12.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, cryptography used to make sure that those individual

491
00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:16.720
<v Speaker 1>transactions are then not affected to the same extent. Right now,

492
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.559
<v Speaker 1>for other blockchains, you might be vulnerable at both with

493
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.960
<v Speaker 1>the consensus and individual transaction player and so then yes,

494
00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:27.720
<v Speaker 1>you would have to migrate to the right algorithms you know,

495
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:33.640
<v Speaker 1>along the way. But some of them already protected right

496
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.240
<v Speaker 1>at the consensus, like Bitcoin, and you know they will

497
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:39.680
<v Speaker 1>only need to address in the digital transactions.

498
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:42.799
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm, Okay, that that definitely makes sense. I appreciate

499
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:46.039
<v Speaker 2>that perspective because to your point, there's just you know

500
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.720
<v Speaker 2>a lot of headlines, Oh, no, quantitum computing is going

501
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:52.359
<v Speaker 2>to take down Bitcoin and this blockchain, but you know

502
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.680
<v Speaker 2>they we're not close to that yet, and folks will

503
00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:58.880
<v Speaker 2>evolve and iterate and make them dates.

504
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And like the last point that I'll make on that,

505
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:06.920
<v Speaker 1>I actually think blockchains are best suited right now to

506
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:12.200
<v Speaker 1>embrace the upgrades as transparently as possible compared to sorry,

507
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:18.079
<v Speaker 1>like I said, traditional systems, right, most blockchains do they

508
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.440
<v Speaker 1>have upgrade mechanisms, right, you know, we have seen upgrades

509
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.200
<v Speaker 1>on Bitcoin, we have seen upgrades and ethereum and many

510
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:28.480
<v Speaker 1>many chains have those kind of on chain governance based,

511
00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:32.400
<v Speaker 1>consensus driven upgrades where the whole ecosystem switches to a

512
00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:37.559
<v Speaker 1>new mode of operation. Traditional financial systems don't have those, right,

513
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.759
<v Speaker 1>It's a lot of bespoke systems and pieces of information

514
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.279
<v Speaker 1>and APIs that are sort of stitched and glued together

515
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.839
<v Speaker 1>communicating her bespoke way. It would be much harder to

516
00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:53.480
<v Speaker 1>upgrade those than it would be to upgrade any blockchain

517
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:54.559
<v Speaker 1>system in my view.

518
00:30:55.319 --> 00:31:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because many of those systems are so antiquated in try. Yeah,

519
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:02.279
<v Speaker 2>just the old systems, and we're trying to get them

520
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:05.960
<v Speaker 2>to move to blockchains and right now. So that's a

521
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:06.319
<v Speaker 2>great point.

522
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.240
<v Speaker 1>Maybe that would be the you know, a way to

523
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:11.480
<v Speaker 1>push them into blockchain system that's your way to be

524
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:12.720
<v Speaker 1>quantum secure.

525
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:17.160
<v Speaker 2>Right. I didn't want to get your thoughts on AI

526
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.759
<v Speaker 2>and crypto. We're seeing kind of a symbiotic relationship where

527
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:24.680
<v Speaker 2>AI is being used to enhance blockchain attributes and then

528
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.720
<v Speaker 2>blockchain is being used to police AI from a deep

529
00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:31.119
<v Speaker 2>fake perspective. You know, how do you see this relationship

530
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.319
<v Speaker 2>and this intersection growing as we head into the future.

531
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:40.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think the way that I like to summarize

532
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:46.119
<v Speaker 1>is that AI creates AI makes the cost of generation

533
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:53.920
<v Speaker 1>to be almost zero, but it requires verification to be useful. Right, So,

534
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:59.240
<v Speaker 1>anything you know that's AI generated today people asking questions

535
00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:02.839
<v Speaker 1>that how do you differentiated from real Right? How do

536
00:32:02.839 --> 00:32:06.960
<v Speaker 1>you differentiate what's AI generated, what's not AI generated? How

537
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:13.440
<v Speaker 1>do you differentiate what's generated by malicious AI versus versus

538
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:19.160
<v Speaker 1>you know, non malicious AI. Right, And so blockchains systems

539
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:23.119
<v Speaker 1>are very good at given the ground truth of information,

540
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:29.960
<v Speaker 1>and I think that relationship today is very you know,

541
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:34.480
<v Speaker 1>it's very early. I think there's a lot of you know, buzz,

542
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:37.200
<v Speaker 1>and there's a lot of hype. You know, it needs

543
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:39.640
<v Speaker 1>to be developed more. I think it needs to be

544
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:43.599
<v Speaker 1>explored more. But I do think it's there are real intersections,

545
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:46.400
<v Speaker 1>there are real use cases because of these very two

546
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:50.920
<v Speaker 1>conflicting properties. Right. One is let me generate things as

547
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:56.480
<v Speaker 1>fast as possible, as much as possible, and that information,

548
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, ends up being very hard to validate, to verify,

549
00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:06.960
<v Speaker 1>to communicate, to authenticate. And then we have blockchains that

550
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:13.279
<v Speaker 1>are very good at you know, validating, distributing, rewarding, you know,

551
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:16.279
<v Speaker 1>verifying all of that. And I think for the AI

552
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.599
<v Speaker 1>to go to the level that it needs to be at.

553
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.519
<v Speaker 1>It will need to be combined with a sort of

554
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:24.559
<v Speaker 1>verification layer in some sense, and I think blockchain is

555
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.359
<v Speaker 1>very good at doing that in addition to have and

556
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:31.400
<v Speaker 1>of course, you know financial rails embedded in the in

557
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.839
<v Speaker 1>the AI systems, which I think are necessary as well.

558
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and do you think this is something I've been

559
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:40.960
<v Speaker 2>noodling on that social platforms where many of us get

560
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:44.000
<v Speaker 2>our information from, right, we see what our friends, family

561
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:47.920
<v Speaker 2>are doing. That when we upload an image or a video,

562
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.119
<v Speaker 2>there's going to have to be some sort of blockchain

563
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.319
<v Speaker 2>encryption tag to it, so that if someone comes with

564
00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.799
<v Speaker 2>a different version that's AI manipulated, we can say, no,

565
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.160
<v Speaker 2>that's that's that was not from Surgey or not from Tony.

566
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:06.640
<v Speaker 1>I think we need to get there right Otherwise, again,

567
00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:09.360
<v Speaker 1>like we live in the world of you know, made

568
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.960
<v Speaker 1>up facts and made up information, right, Like, I really

569
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:15.400
<v Speaker 1>hope we can get to the world where information is validated,

570
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:20.159
<v Speaker 1>can be authenticated with full providence. If it's been modified

571
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.840
<v Speaker 1>along the way, we know what the modifications are and

572
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:25.880
<v Speaker 1>you can like you know, go down the roots because

573
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:29.199
<v Speaker 1>because yeah, again I think the cost of information is

574
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:33.599
<v Speaker 1>going to be negligible unless it's verifiable information going forward.

575
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:38.519
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. And do you foresee that in the future

576
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:41.519
<v Speaker 2>we may have I don't know if this makes sense

577
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:45.559
<v Speaker 2>AI to police a the world of AI, right, you

578
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:49.480
<v Speaker 2>have these AI agents from the government or law enforcement

579
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.760
<v Speaker 2>or from companies that are just monitoring what's happening overall,

580
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:57.119
<v Speaker 2>what people are doing and what rogue AI agents may

581
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.840
<v Speaker 2>be doing. Do you see something like that?

582
00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Definitely? I mean like a new AIS like no other.

583
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:06.519
<v Speaker 1>There's no different as like other software system right, Like, yes,

584
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.800
<v Speaker 1>we have software today that you know, does certain things

585
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:15.519
<v Speaker 1>used by you know, good actors, bad actors, educational institutions,

586
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:17.840
<v Speaker 1>medical institutions, and of course we have a lot of

587
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:21.880
<v Speaker 1>software that you know polices today software right monitor and

588
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:25.199
<v Speaker 1>for vulnerabilities, for attacks and everything else. So if you're

589
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:28.480
<v Speaker 1>in the AI world and if that's a better way

590
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.000
<v Speaker 1>to build software and systems and propagate information, of course

591
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:35.079
<v Speaker 1>you're going to need to you know, uh, the the

592
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:38.199
<v Speaker 1>A itself to to police one another. Right, then the

593
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:41.519
<v Speaker 1>software systems will need to leverage it to to kind

594
00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:46.320
<v Speaker 1>of keep up right with the with threats, with attacks,

595
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:50.719
<v Speaker 1>with the you know, information explosion that that happens in

596
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.280
<v Speaker 1>other AI systems. So yeah, I mean I view it

597
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:56.920
<v Speaker 1>as the as the better, more efficient way to both

598
00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:01.000
<v Speaker 1>build systems, to search systems, to analyze information across the world.

599
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.880
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I think blockchain it plays a critical

600
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.280
<v Speaker 1>role by providing some of the properties need it, you know,

601
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:10.760
<v Speaker 1>around authenticity of the data.

602
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:16.800
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. This is a very far out question, but

603
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm just thinking about what the future may look like.

604
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:25.320
<v Speaker 2>What if we have an AI it creates its own blockchain,

605
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:29.960
<v Speaker 2>its own token, and no human can control it. What

606
00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:32.639
<v Speaker 2>do you think that that may be possible in like

607
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:33.920
<v Speaker 2>forty years or something.

608
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:38.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't see why you need to do it, you know,

609
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.559
<v Speaker 1>forty years. I'm sure you can. You're doing employ the

610
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:45.559
<v Speaker 1>days right for a g I. So yeah, I mean,

611
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:48.719
<v Speaker 1>like you know, you've seen projects of a kind of

612
00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:51.760
<v Speaker 1>a launch in tokens right, generated some keys these days,

613
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:55.519
<v Speaker 1>and like applications, there's no there's no reason why it

614
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:58.639
<v Speaker 1>cannot launch. You know, the blockchain system decide how the

615
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.480
<v Speaker 1>validation logic is have and you know, under the hood.

616
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:06.360
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I mean, like I think, what it is

617
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:07.199
<v Speaker 1>not forty years?

618
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:12.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and maybe that's like you know what we saw

619
00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:15.480
<v Speaker 2>in the movies with sky Neet right, and it's doing

620
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:19.880
<v Speaker 2>its own thing you can't control anymore. But hopefully there's

621
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:20.559
<v Speaker 2>no I don't know what.

622
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:23.119
<v Speaker 1>Not being able to control like that sort of a

623
00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:25.280
<v Speaker 1>you know, too far out there. I think all systems

624
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:27.800
<v Speaker 1>can be controlled, you know, like, hey, I systems are

625
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.480
<v Speaker 1>systems that you can isolate them. You can you know,

626
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:33.519
<v Speaker 1>restrict their scope of run time and things like that.

627
00:37:33.719 --> 00:37:38.559
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I'm not I'm not afraid of you know,

628
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:43.320
<v Speaker 1>uncontrollable sky Night takeover of things. I'm more afraid of

629
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:47.920
<v Speaker 1>just abundance of these systems and the result of abundance

630
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:50.880
<v Speaker 1>of these systems, you know, lots of errors coming up,

631
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:56.360
<v Speaker 1>lots of misinformation, lots of you know, bad you know,

632
00:37:56.519 --> 00:38:00.519
<v Speaker 1>just bad decisions being made potentially by other system is right,

633
00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:05.199
<v Speaker 1>And you know, if you want to call the sky

634
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:10.719
<v Speaker 1>net type of drama, maybe it will lead to that.

635
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:13.880
<v Speaker 1>But you know, I think we're pretty pretty far from that.

636
00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:17.559
<v Speaker 1>But but there are real, I think challenges that we're

637
00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:20.039
<v Speaker 1>going to have to address, right with just the just

638
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:23.320
<v Speaker 1>the abundance of information the AI systems, and they have

639
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.719
<v Speaker 1>bundands of actions these AI systems can take.

640
00:38:26.159 --> 00:38:31.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, It's it's a brave new world, exciting but also,

641
00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:33.599
<v Speaker 2>like you said, some things we got to be cautious about.

642
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:37.800
<v Speaker 2>I did want to get your thoughts on the maturity

643
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:39.960
<v Speaker 2>of the crypto market. Obviously you've been in this space

644
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:42.679
<v Speaker 2>for a while. What are your thoughts on how the

645
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:47.199
<v Speaker 2>industry has grown, the change of the environment for crypto

646
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:49.920
<v Speaker 2>starting this year with the new president of New Congress

647
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:54.119
<v Speaker 2>and TRADFI is here looking to build tokenizing and much more.

648
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:57.760
<v Speaker 1>I definitely think it's become more and more mature and

649
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.320
<v Speaker 1>more and more ready for war, you know, a kind

650
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:04.360
<v Speaker 1>of a mass adoption, right and like real, real distribution.

651
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:08.400
<v Speaker 1>So you know, as an example, when we're even working

652
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 1>at out ground, we had a lot of conversations but

653
00:39:10.679 --> 00:39:12.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, some of the same institutions as we're you know,

654
00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:18.719
<v Speaker 1>talking to today, and in many cases a lot of

655
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:23.000
<v Speaker 1>the conversations were around doing pilots in the you know,

656
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.800
<v Speaker 1>R and D departments in some sense, right, and that's

657
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:31.039
<v Speaker 1>where the conversations remained. And that's where the conversations were left.

658
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:35.199
<v Speaker 1>Today we'll find it outselves in conversations with product teams

659
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:38.000
<v Speaker 1>right at these institutions, So product teams that are looking

660
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:43.000
<v Speaker 1>at tokenization, product teams that understand that you know, blockchain

661
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.400
<v Speaker 1>systems can provide more efficient settlement of their transactions, more

662
00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:51.519
<v Speaker 1>efficient accounting of their transactions. Right, if you're operating costs

663
00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:54.519
<v Speaker 1>and those product teams are figuring out what the products are,

664
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:57.760
<v Speaker 1>how do you launch behind them? Right? So, I think

665
00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:03.400
<v Speaker 1>we're definitely in a new aram for adoption amongst the

666
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:06.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, institutions and enterprises. I think the technology is there,

667
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:10.320
<v Speaker 1>technology is already. We know how to build good experiences.

668
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:14.480
<v Speaker 1>We know how to build you know, chain abstracted interfaces

669
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:18.320
<v Speaker 1>and tokens. We know how to scale underlying consensus as well.

670
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:20.599
<v Speaker 1>So all I think, you know, a lot of the

671
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:24.639
<v Speaker 1>infrastructure problems that we've been working on over the last decade,

672
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:29.880
<v Speaker 1>I think are solved, and you know, we need to

673
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:35.360
<v Speaker 1>enter the world of usability, you know, clear value proposition

674
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:40.440
<v Speaker 1>for around the use cases. And yeah, I think these

675
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.840
<v Speaker 1>conversations are very very exciting, very very real, and I'm

676
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:45.719
<v Speaker 1>kind of looking forward to what's going to happen over

677
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:48.719
<v Speaker 1>the next few years with you know, new new administration

678
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:52.679
<v Speaker 1>on board as well as the technology being at the

679
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:53.559
<v Speaker 1>phase that it's at.

680
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. And one of the things I've been

681
00:40:56.880 --> 00:40:59.440
<v Speaker 2>thinking about, and this is a conversation out of people

682
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:03.440
<v Speaker 2>are been having as well. Is getting the wallet right

683
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.239
<v Speaker 2>so that my mom and dad, the average Joe and

684
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:08.679
<v Speaker 2>Jane walking down the street can just they have the

685
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:11.440
<v Speaker 2>Web two feel to it right, the interface, but it's

686
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:15.920
<v Speaker 2>powered by blockchains. It's powered by Web three. And while

687
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:18.800
<v Speaker 2>they may know, okay, this is a crypto blockchain related app,

688
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:20.599
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't feel like it doesn't. I don't have to

689
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:24.639
<v Speaker 2>worry about a twenty four phrase password and all that.

690
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:27.960
<v Speaker 2>Are there any wallets that call out to you or

691
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:30.000
<v Speaker 2>that you think might be leaning to charge here?

692
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:35.800
<v Speaker 1>So there're actually kind of a quite a few wallets

693
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:40.960
<v Speaker 1>that are embracing kind of a traditional sign on mechanism

694
00:41:41.039 --> 00:41:44.119
<v Speaker 1>to generate cryptographic keys. So as an example, you know,

695
00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:46.880
<v Speaker 1>we're working with Slee Blockchain quite a lot, and they

696
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:51.320
<v Speaker 1>have this project called gk log Game, which I'm really

697
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.199
<v Speaker 1>which I really love. The basic ideas to be able

698
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.480
<v Speaker 1>to generate all the cryptographic materials that you need using

699
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:02.039
<v Speaker 1>your standards credentials from more additional like online platforms that

700
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:04.800
<v Speaker 1>you use. Right, so you can like go to Google,

701
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:08.800
<v Speaker 1>authenticate to your email from Google, and that would serve

702
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:12.599
<v Speaker 1>as a credential to generate U you know, a cryptographic

703
00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:15.280
<v Speaker 1>key on a blockchain, right, You'll never have to think

704
00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:17.679
<v Speaker 1>about this cryptographic key. You'll never have to think about

705
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:22.719
<v Speaker 1>recovery beyond recovering your you know, Google credential, but it

706
00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:26.159
<v Speaker 1>is going to be sufficient to establish your identity in

707
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:29.800
<v Speaker 1>the blockchain system and then use that for all the transactions.

708
00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:34.199
<v Speaker 1>So I'm a big fan of these new projects that

709
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:40.039
<v Speaker 1>leverage you know, zke type of technology to establish traditional

710
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:44.119
<v Speaker 1>credentials that a lot of people are familiar with and

711
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:47.599
<v Speaker 1>then take those for them into the blockchain, establish an

712
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:50.719
<v Speaker 1>identity for the user and use that then throughout the blockchain.

713
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:54.559
<v Speaker 2>M hm, yeah, And I love that idea as well,

714
00:42:54.599 --> 00:42:57.480
<v Speaker 2>where it just makes it simple. There's not necessarily anything

715
00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:01.199
<v Speaker 2>new to the end user per se, but on the

716
00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:05.000
<v Speaker 2>back end the cryptography, all the respective items are there.

717
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Do you think it also needs the buy in from

718
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:12.599
<v Speaker 2>the Googles and the facebooks that they may need to

719
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:16.159
<v Speaker 2>agree their infrastructure with using blockchain to help make sure

720
00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:17.760
<v Speaker 2>this is all sealed tight?

721
00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:21.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the beauty of actually these cryptographic methods is

722
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:24.800
<v Speaker 1>know that they do not need any buy in from Google, right,

723
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:28.239
<v Speaker 1>they do not need anybody from traditional vendor. You applying

724
00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:33.039
<v Speaker 1>kind of cryptography on top of these authentication methods and

725
00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:34.920
<v Speaker 1>they won't have to change at all.

726
00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:40.719
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. That's good to know. Okay, Serge, great information man,

727
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:45.000
<v Speaker 2>very insightful. I got some wrap up questions here for you. First,

728
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:47.400
<v Speaker 2>if you could create your own metaverse, would the theme be?

729
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.280
<v Speaker 1>What would the theme be? That's a good question. Clarity

730
00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:55.920
<v Speaker 1>of thought hmm.

731
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:07.360
<v Speaker 2>Rapid fire questions, favorite food, fish, favorite musician or band Metallica,

732
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:09.440
<v Speaker 2>favorite movie.

733
00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:18.199
<v Speaker 1>Uh Matrix, favorite book, thinking fast and slow?

734
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.960
<v Speaker 2>And when you're not working at Axelar, what are you

735
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:22.599
<v Speaker 2>doing for fun?

736
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:27.239
<v Speaker 1>I try to exercise as much as I can, you know,

737
00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:32.440
<v Speaker 1>spending time with family, but exercises, uh one of my

738
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:34.719
<v Speaker 1>ways to you know, relax myself in the brain.

739
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:38.880
<v Speaker 2>SERGEI absolute pleasure chatting with you. Appreciate your knowledge and

740
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:41.000
<v Speaker 2>your experience. Thank you so much for joining me.

741
00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:43.159
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having me. This is awesome.

742
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:44.440
<v Speaker 2>M