WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.520 Before we dive in, here's another show you can enjoy 2 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.120 in the True Story FM Family of Entertainment podcasts. 3 00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:08.800 Ever wondered what happens when a Zoomer who grew up 4 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:09.560 on the Clone. 5 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:11.800 Wars, millennial, Anakin Defender. 6 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:13.880 And a grumpy old gen Xer walking to a canteen 7 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:14.960 and at talk Star Wars. 8 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:16.679 Then we've got the podcast for you. 9 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:19.399 Star Wars Generations is a place for fans of all 10 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:22.440 backgrounds to come together talk about what we love the franchise 11 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:24.039 and what we can learn from each other. 12 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.839 With so much new Star Wars content coming out, we 13 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:28.960 take a deep dive into all of it. We talk 14 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:31.359 stories and characters, what we learned about the Force and 15 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:34.759 the Empire, Republics old and new, and how each story 16 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:36.359 adds to the larger picture. 17 00:00:37.200 --> 00:00:40.359 Besides episode by episode coverage of the new shows, we've 18 00:00:40.399 --> 00:00:41.159 been going. 19 00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:42.759 Back to watch the movies and release order. 20 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.479 We talk about Star Wars novels and video games, along 21 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.079 with fam content and cosplay. 22 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:51.640 And with each episode, we're just starting the conversation and 23 00:00:51.679 --> 00:00:54.399 we hope you jump in. We'll read your feedback, answer 24 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.640 your questions. We've had full episodes dedicated to questions and 25 00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.119 raised by listeners. 26 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:02.079 Like you find us under Star Wars Generations on your 27 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:04.719 favorite podcast app or by going to the Ethical Pana 28 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:05.359 dot com. 29 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:06.519 May the Force be with. 30 00:01:06.519 --> 00:01:10.120 You now, this is podcasting. 31 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.400 Meet Zinnia. You are being very polite to someone who 32 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:16.920 is attempting to kill us her wife's saffron. 33 00:01:17.159 --> 00:01:21.120 You know, I'm wildly, madly in love with you and 34 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:24.120 their best friend, Goldie Glad we didn't miss all the fun. 35 00:01:24.439 --> 00:01:27.400 Swords in hand, they defend their city from the worst 36 00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:31.319 of humanity. I am Lord Buxton Blue. What are the 37 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:32.239 Electric hair? 38 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:32.680 Hag? 39 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:36.599 Virgil Walcot Vicious Suad. 40 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:40.680 Follow their adventures on the Swashbuckling Ladies Debate Society audio 41 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:46.000 drama podcast available now at True story dot Fm. Slash Swashbuckling. 42 00:01:57.400 --> 00:01:59.920 Hello and welcome back to this episode of Superhero FA. 43 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:03.040 Today we're going to be discussing the topic of fridging, 44 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.159 and we have special guests Jessica Plumber joining us. Fridging, 45 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:08.680 as many of you may know, as a concept that 46 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:11.639 comes to us out of comic books, but really we 47 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:14.120 can see it across a lot of different media. And 48 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:16.639 Rieky and I have had a couple different conversations about 49 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.680 this recently, both this topic as well as. 50 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:21.639 Related ones, and it just made me want to really 51 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:22.080 made me. 52 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:24.479 Realize that we've we've touched on it a couple of times, 53 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:27.039 we've never really had the chance to dive in and 54 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:29.919 really get into it. So let me just start by Jessica, 55 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:32.479 introduce yourself to people who haven't heard you on this 56 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:34.719 podcast before. Although it's pretty difficult, you're one of our 57 00:02:34.840 --> 00:02:37.520 best returning guests, and tell us what is fridging? 58 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:43.199 All right? Hi, I'm Jessica Plummer. I am a huge 59 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:49.560 comic book nerd with a particular interest in comic book 60 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:55.520 history and gender and sexuality as depicted in comic books. 61 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:01.400 And fridging is short for or the verb form for 62 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:04.919 women in refrigerators, which is a term that was coined 63 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:09.520 by Gail Simone in nineteen ninety nine. Gal Simone is 64 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.039 a very well known and successful comic book writer, but 65 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:15.639 this was a couple of years before her first professional 66 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:18.479 comic book writing, so she was a comic book fan 67 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:24.560 who noticed that it was very difficult to find a 68 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:31.400 female character in comics who had not been killed, raped, assaulted, maimed, 69 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:37.800 psychically or magically violated, or otherwise harmed. And the term 70 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:40.319 so she had she had a list of these women, 71 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:45.840 and the term has now evolved to specifically refer to 72 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:50.080 when those things happened to a female character for the 73 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:54.280 purposes of forwarding a male character storyline. 74 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:54.680 Right. 75 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:57.560 I think that's a great Yeah. 76 00:03:57.599 --> 00:03:59.879 Thanks, I think that's a great uh to think that 77 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.800 definition of it. And I like that you really capture 78 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:04.199 a number of different things that it has now come 79 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:07.879 to me, mostly the idea of the woman character having 80 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:10.000 these things happen as a way of advancing the male 81 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:12.639 character's storyline, you know, so that it can be the 82 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:14.560 thing that inspires him to get back in the fight, 83 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:16.639 or the thing that inspires him to stop fighting, or 84 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.399 the thing that motivates him to go after someone and 85 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:22.040 go on a revenge plot or whatever it is. But 86 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:25.439 also that it's not just about women dying. It's that 87 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:29.759 about horrible things being done to women's bodies, and that 88 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.519 particularly that in a visual format where it's depicted in 89 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:38.639 ways that are sometimes eroticized or sometimes just incredibly gruesome. 90 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:42.040 But it's hard to kind of divorce the idea of 91 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:45.680 violence done to women's bodies in a culture where that's 92 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:48.879 already you know, such an issue Rieky, what's been your 93 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:51.680 experience with this term. 94 00:04:52.079 --> 00:04:55.199 Yeah, well, I'm very familiar with the discussion that was 95 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:58.399 presented by Gail, and of course I'm a huge Green 96 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:03.680 Lantern fan, so I'm also familiar with the original incident 97 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:05.439 that this gets its name. 98 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:07.920 From, which was So what is that original incident? 99 00:05:08.439 --> 00:05:12.199 It was a nineteen ninety four issue of Green Lantern. 100 00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:16.360 At this point, Kyle Rayner has become the new Green 101 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:20.560 Lantern from Earth because hal Jordan went insane and became 102 00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:25.319 a supervillain Parallax, and Kyle becomes the new Green Lantern, 103 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:32.600 and his girlfriend Alexandra de Witt helps him like she's 104 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.519 there to support him and suggests that he changes costume, 105 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:41.519 et cetera. And then a villain named Major Force discovers 106 00:05:41.720 --> 00:05:46.920 that Kyle is Green Lantern and attacks Alexandra in her 107 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.720 home over their home, I guess their apartment, and then 108 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:53.959 leaves a note for Kyle saying there's a surprise for 109 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:54.839 you in the fridge. 110 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:55.519 Love a. 111 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:58.480 So he assumes it's from his girlfriend and looks in 112 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:02.439 the fridge and sees her body stuffed in the fridge. 113 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:06.240 And that's where this name comes from. Fridging women and refrigerators, 114 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:12.639 because this incident was so blatantly just like for Kyle's benefit, right, 115 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:16.839 Like the character herself, I mean, was not a prominent 116 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:21.000 character and was just kind of introduced to be this 117 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.839 vehicle for his for his trauma and for his revenge 118 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:28.560 against Major Force. And the writer actually even admitted that 119 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.639 he was like, yeah, I like she was the throwaway 120 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:34.600 character that I wrote so that Kyle could experience this. 121 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:38.399 And that's like the dissatisfaction with this trope. It's like 122 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:43.199 you are not even writing real characters for you know, 123 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:47.480 these women. They are just there to service the storyline 124 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:49.360 of the male superhero protagonist. 125 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:53.360 Right, And so let's get you what are some other 126 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:55.279 examples you all can think of to help ground our 127 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:57.079 listeners and like what we're talking about here? 128 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:02.560 Oh boy, how many hours do we have for this podcast? 129 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.519 I mean, I think that the most famous example in 130 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:10.639 comics is probably Gwen Stacy in Spider Man comics, which 131 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:16.600 of course they adapted into the movies, the Andrew Garfield movies. 132 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:23.639 There's uh, Barry Allen's Mom, which we have now had 133 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:30.439 to see across like five different mediums. There's what's her face? 134 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:37.160 Maggie Chillen Hall in The Dark Night, perfect example, Rachel. 135 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:40.959 Thank you, Rachel. I have not seen that movie and 136 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:43.480 since it was in theaters, because it made me so mad. 137 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:47.519 Well you said Maggie Jill, I was thinking Katie Holmes 138 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:49.160 when she died. 139 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:56.399 She died as Maggie Chill in Hall, I mean Gomora 140 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:03.079 in whichever Adventures movie that was. And Black Widow yep, 141 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:08.279 which is really telling because you know, you hear the 142 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:12.560 argument of well, this it's just something that happens to 143 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:15.920 supporting characters. Black Widow is not a supporting character in 144 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.399 the Avengers. She is a member of the Avengers. And 145 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.920 out of that lineup, the original six, how many of 146 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.120 them are women and how many of them died? Right, 147 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:29.319 same with the Guardians. 148 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:31.399 And I think this is one of those times where 149 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.519 like you can look at individual instances and some of 150 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:37.679 them seem completely ridiculous like that. I think the original 151 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.799 friging idea that we talked about some like Black Widow, Like, 152 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:42.679 I think there's a argans you made of like it 153 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:44.679 makes sense that this is what her character would want 154 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:48.039 to do, that sacrifice, but it's that the a as 155 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:51.279 you said, she's the only woman character, and then b 156 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:55.080 that her death. You know, we get a whole literal 157 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:58.799 funeral scene for Tony Stark, and we get very little 158 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.000 of Black Widow's death and Natasha's death except for the 159 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:06.039 fact that she then winds up being her death is 160 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:08.799 the motivation for a villain in her sister, Elena, which 161 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.399 we later get. And I think, just as you said, like, 162 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:13.879 it's that this is such a pattern, you know, that 163 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:16.559 the fact that it keeps happening again and again and again. 164 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:18.519 And I think, you know, I've seen some great pieces. 165 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:21.000 I'm like, there's some examples of it that like, yeah, 166 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.039 really sin to make sense for the story, and others 167 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:25.879 that are just completely ludicrous, but any of them like 168 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:27.919 the fact that we're just doing it again and again 169 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:32.279 and again without being thoughtful of it, you know, talk 170 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:34.879 about like why is that important? Why is it significant 171 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:37.639 that this is what keeps happening to women characters? 172 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:40.720 Yeah, I mean, it's it's about the volume of it, right, 173 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:44.919 It's about when you look at a few numbers, there's 174 00:09:45.080 --> 00:09:54.639 the the fact that female characters are disproportionately underrepresented in 175 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:59.320 really most media. I was gonna say comics and superhero media, 176 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.919 but it's it's most media. Like if you look at studies, 177 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:06.080 I mean children's books and television. Even in like crowd scenes, 178 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:12.759 like extras, women female characters are extremely underrepresented. It's particularly 179 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:17.519 egregious and superhero media. Again, six Avengers, only one of 180 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:21.480 them is a woman, So you already have a much 181 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:25.720 smaller group that you're working with, and then the amount 182 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.159 of times that this sort of thing happens to them, 183 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.679 because it's not just killing, it's also as I said 184 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:37.720 in the original definition, assaults, rapes, being nimed, paralyzed. Barbara 185 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:43.039 Gordon's a famous example of that. Those happen at a 186 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:48.279 disproportionately high rate to female characters compared to male characters. 187 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.639 So you already have fewer to work with. Because you know, 188 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:55.799 people who argue that this trope is not a real thing, 189 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:59.320 We'll say, well, bad things happen to men and to 190 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:03.120 male character and they do, but they happen to a 191 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:09.440 much smaller percentage of a much larger pool. And when 192 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:12.480 they do happen, and this is kind of going off 193 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:14.120 of what you asked me, but when they do happen, 194 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:17.080 those things tend to be about the men that they're 195 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:21.960 happening to and not about some like a woman in 196 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.080 their life and how that woman feels about that. 197 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.799 I mean, as I'm thinking about it, Like, there's a 198 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:31.639 couple of instances where the death of women characters is 199 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:36.440 a primary motivation for another woman character, Elena and. 200 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:40.279 Her being Natasha's sister. 201 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:45.720 But I'm trying to think of any female characters where 202 00:11:45.720 --> 00:11:47.679 the death of a man in her life is a 203 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.279 major motivator and we don't really know that male character 204 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:53.639 except in terms of as her partner, as her as 205 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:54.159 her person. 206 00:11:55.279 --> 00:11:58.279 The closest example I can think of is Wonder Woman 207 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:02.960 nineteen eighty four. He has its own problems. But that's 208 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.440 That's the other thing. Not only are there fewer female characters, 209 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:09.039 fewer of them are the main. 210 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:10.399 Character, right. 211 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:15.200 Mostly we get introduced to them already as the sidekick, 212 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.080 as the love interest, as the mother. As they are, 213 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.000 they are defined by the relationship to someone else. 214 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.000 Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the Wonder Woman movies 215 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:31.799 because that, to me highlights a big difference between men 216 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:38.759 and women when they die. In in the Wonder Woman movie, 217 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:46.000 Chris Pine's character with Steve Trevor, right, he sacrifices himself 218 00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.879 like it's a noble sacrifice in that final battle and yes, 219 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.879 like she is motivated by it, but he he isn't 220 00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.399 nimed or you know, raped, as you said in regards 221 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.240 to these the women who suffer these terrible fates. In 222 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:04.039 the midst of the battle, he sacrifices himself and it 223 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:06.799 also advances like stopping the villain. 224 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:07.840 Right. 225 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.759 And then in Wonder Woman nineteen eighty four, the very 226 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:15.559 next movie, they bring him back in a weird way, 227 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:19.080 but they bring the character back. And that's the other 228 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.480 thing with this trope, like when men die, they come 229 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:23.200 back and the women don't. 230 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:27.720 Right, Yeah, it's called dead men defrosting. That's the name 231 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:30.519 of the sub trope. 232 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.279 And this is true even when it's like the male 233 00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:39.720 main character suffers some some harm, right, Like Batman had 234 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:44.840 his back broken by Baine in Nightfall, but he came 235 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:48.399 back and was like even stronger than ever. Superman famously 236 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.840 died and has come back both in comics and in 237 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.399 the movies, and it's like almost immediate. 238 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:57.039 And actually Batman is a great example because you know, 239 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:01.320 he has this injury that would be completely debilitating for 240 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:03.960 a lot of people, and he manages to pretty much 241 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:08.720 completely heal. Barbara Gordon bat Girl also has a very 242 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.399 bad back injury, but it leaves her permanently paralyzed. There 243 00:14:12.440 --> 00:14:15.159 is no healing that comes to her character. Her character 244 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:19.000 is just you know, and and and and even then, 245 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:22.480 it's not even like, you know, I think one of 246 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:25.039 the kind of a greedious things in that original Green 247 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:28.399 Lantern thing, and that happens a lot in Fridging is 248 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.559 it's not even that someone wants to kill the female 249 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.080 character because of who she is, you know, it is 250 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:36.080 just a you know, it's a different like when someone 251 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:37.200 goes after Lois Lane. 252 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:40.080 Generally, it's not because they know she's Superman's girlfriend. 253 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.080 It's because she's a badass reporter and they need to 254 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:45.559 kill off the bad ass reporter, Like it's about what 255 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:50.399 she is doing. Whereas you know, in those cases like 256 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:55.440 you know, his girlfriend, or when Joker goes after Barbara Gordon, 257 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.039 it's not because Barbara Gordon is a thorn in his side. 258 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.720 It's that he wants to prove some point to Commissioner 259 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.399 Gordon and to Batman. So even the villain is seeing 260 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:08.399 the woman character just as a plot device to have 261 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:10.919 an effect on the male character that they want to 262 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:11.679 have that effect on. 263 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:17.519 Yeah, I mean that I have so many thoughts about 264 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:23.240 everything you both said. And yeah, like with Batman being 265 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:27.759 breaking Batman's back in Nightfall, that story is not about 266 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.679 a female character. That's not like Batman doesn't get his 267 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:34.559 back broken because of how any female character in the 268 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.440 story will feel about it. There's only one female character 269 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:43.320 in that story, and it's Robin's dad's doctor who Bruce 270 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.919 Wayne is being really inappropriate with. But it's not about 271 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:51.919 her feelings, doctor Seandrakin solving very obscure character. The point 272 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:54.279 is it's about Batman. It's about what happens to Batman 273 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:57.759 and how he feels about it. When Superman dies, obviously 274 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.000 he's dead, so it's not about how he feels about it. 275 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.720 But it's not it's not Lois's story, Like, that's not 276 00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:08.120 a story. That's not her narrative. It's maybe a collective 277 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:10.600 narrative about how everybody feels about it, but it's not. 278 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:14.559 He does not die to motivate Lois to like learn 279 00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:19.519 I think it's called Kuklar or something that Kryptonian jiu 280 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:25.159 jitsu and become a superhero. Like that's not what that's for. Whereas, yeah, 281 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:30.519 like you said, when Barbara Gordon is shot by the Joker. 282 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.200 Not only is she at least for the span of 283 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:39.000 that particular universe until it was rebooted. You know what, 284 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:43.759 thirty years later, she was paralyzed from the waist down. 285 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:47.840 She could not walk. There was no magical cure, but 286 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:53.320 it was like you said to drive Commissioner Gordon insaying 287 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.919 to prove a point to Batman. And what One of 288 00:16:57.960 --> 00:16:59.720 the things that gets me about a lot of these 289 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:06.720 incidents is that they become iconic, right, And so Matthew's 290 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:10.400 you mentioned before that, like these are visual mediums, So 291 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:14.240 these images of violence get repeated over and over again, 292 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.039 and every artist has to take their stab at drawing. 293 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:21.200 Barbara Gordon getting shot through the spine, Electra getting stabbed 294 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:25.440 by Bullseye, Supergirl lying dead in Superman's arms, Like we 295 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.839 see these moments of trauma and violence that women are 296 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.880 subjected to over and over again. But also Barbara Gordon 297 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:39.559 in particular, like somehow her getting shot also manages to 298 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.279 be a point of motivation for Booster Gold, Like twenty 299 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:46.720 years later, there's a storyline where like he's trying to 300 00:17:46.759 --> 00:17:50.319 prove you can change the past. So he's trying to 301 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:53.400 stop her from getting shot, and he's unable to do it. 302 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.960 So he keeps traveling back in time and she keeps 303 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.519 getting shot over and over and over again, and so 304 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:01.720 they like remember that. 305 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.880 Yeah, so they somehow managed to dig up this story 306 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.599 of this woman being frigged who, despite all the odds, 307 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.079 went on to like become Oracle and establish her own 308 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:12.960 identity and like. 309 00:18:13.079 --> 00:18:17.039 Very much move past this really crappy piece of writing. 310 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:18.799 And like even Alan Moore will say it was a 311 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.720 crappy piece of writing, and they went right back to 312 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:25.599 it and just like rubbed our faces in it like 313 00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:27.359 a dog in its own mess. 314 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:28.279 Yeah. 315 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:32.680 And that's the same for the flash I mean, Flashy 316 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.480 tried to time travel and save as a mother. He 317 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.039 caused flashpoints and it's like you can't actually do that. Sorry, 318 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:40.160 she's got to stay dead. 319 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:45.119 Jeff john seems to really really love stories about how 320 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:47.759 everything would be bad if a woman didn't die or 321 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:51.400 get hurt. Like he's done it a few times. 322 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:57.599 I wasn't going to name names, but since you did, oh. 323 00:18:58.160 --> 00:18:59.119 He knows what I think. 324 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.279 Yeah. Well, okay, so Jeff Jahns is like a very 325 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:06.240 prominent writer and now I'm sure like some upper management 326 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:11.000 with DC Comics, and he has in some way like 327 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:15.279 overseen a lot of this era that we're talking about, 328 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.960 like nineties to two thousands, because the original Fridging was 329 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.359 in ninety four, and then there was just like a 330 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:25.240 series even after Gail Simone called it out, there was 331 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.200 just a series of these that kept happening. And then like, 332 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:33.160 while I was doing research for this, do you recall 333 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:36.559 Blackest Night the Green Lantern crossover? 334 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:37.480 Tragically? 335 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.079 Yes, this was like one of his big things. In 336 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:44.960 Blackest Night, the Black Lanterns, who are essentially just DC 337 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:49.799 zombies invade the entire universe. Is a huge crossover, and 338 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.799 they bring back a bunch of these friged women as 339 00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:00.920 Black Lanterns, including the original one, Alexandra de Wit, who 340 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:06.960 uses her black ring to create a refrigerator construct to 341 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:12.079 re torment Kyle in this fight. It is ridiculous. 342 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.160 I mean, they like they love going back into these wells. 343 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:19.000 This is way back in the nineties, well before Black 344 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:21.640 As Night. There's a storyline where Kyle is teamed up 345 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:25.480 with Guy Gardner and Kyle is still a pretty new 346 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:28.119 hero at this point, and they go to Guy's mom's 347 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.720 house and they realize the fridge is open and they're 348 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.279 both like, oh god, oh no, because they're fighting major force. 349 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:36.559 They're tracking down the villain who killed Alice, and they're 350 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:39.799 freaking out and Kyle is like having a panic attack. 351 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:41.400 He can't go near it. And so Guy is the 352 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:43.799 one who opens the fridge and he realizes it's not 353 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:45.759 his mom because she wasn't home at the time. It 354 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:47.680 was the neighbor who came over to like feed the 355 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.200 cat or something, and it's so it's a woman who's 356 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.920 like never even named. But again, it's like, hey, remember 357 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:55.599 when we did this, We're gonna do it again. We're 358 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:57.880 going to keep doing it. We think it's really cool. 359 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:00.440 And it's so interesting to me how not only is 360 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:06.440 that happening, but now like let's back it up, yeah, 361 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:08.839 and you can really see how it makes sense to me. 362 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:11.240 And it's horrible, but like that a lot of people 363 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.160 keep doing it, even after the term fridging really became popular. 364 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.599 You mentioned that Gael Simone has created a website called 365 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.799 Women and Refrigerators. It's still there and she has as 366 00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:24.400 to keep it as a historical artifact, not updated the 367 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:26.880 HTML in any way since nineteen ninety nine, which is 368 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:29.559 very apparent in the website, but among other things. 369 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:31.720 It has some of the responses she's. 370 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:33.599 Gotten, and some of them I think are like interesting 371 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.559 conversations and push back, and some are just you know, 372 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.359 like anytime guys in a guy's world or called out 373 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:41.640 for doing something and they push back. But it definitely 374 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:43.240 seems like there are some who are like, all right, well, 375 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:47.440 you think we've done enough fridging, bet And I think 376 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:49.680 it also become significant that some of the stories that 377 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:51.839 I think gain a lot of the most sort of 378 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:55.319 public traction are often ones where they don't do fridging, 379 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:59.960 like John Wick, one of the first John Wick move, 380 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:02.160 which I think was a big part of kind of 381 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.119 launching Keanu Reeves into like the social position he has 382 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:06.599 now is kind of like one of the most beloved 383 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:08.960 you know, action stars and things like that, and he's 384 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:11.240 also just a fantastic guy in eight million ways. 385 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:12.000 But like. 386 00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:15.480 The movie, the whole point of the movie is that 387 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:18.480 his dog gets killed, and like the dog is connected 388 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:19.960 to his wife. It's one of the last things he 389 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:23.839 has from his wife. But like, it's not it's if 390 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:25.559 you want to say anything with it gets freached, it's 391 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.720 the dog. And I remember that being a real thing 392 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:29.559 that people were commenting on of like how nice it 393 00:22:29.720 --> 00:22:32.079 was that it wasn't about the death of a woman, 394 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:34.640 you know. And then he does have this like relationship 395 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:37.880 with her memory, but it's not that And and to 396 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:41.039 give one other example of the good Daredevil, I mean, 397 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:44.000 you know, the original Netflix MCU Daredevil. 398 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:47.279 No commentary on the newer one. 399 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:49.400 You can find me in Jessica having many commentaries on 400 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.400 that in a previous episode. But I remember one thing 401 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:55.799