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<v Speaker 1>Josh Pauling, thank you for joining me on a commitment

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<v Speaker 1>to reality.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, Dave, great to be with you. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>I'd like to begin the podcast the same way that

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<v Speaker 1>you began the book. You quote Wendell Berry, you say,

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<v Speaker 1>it is easy for me to imagine that the next

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<v Speaker 1>great division of the world will be between people who

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<v Speaker 1>wish to live as creatures and people who wish to

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<v Speaker 1>live as machines. I think about that a lot. I

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<v Speaker 1>think that we are at an inflection point in human history.

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the reasons I think about it a

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<v Speaker 1>lot is I wonder am I being alarmist or am

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<v Speaker 1>I living in reality? And that's one of the reasons

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<v Speaker 1>that I became convinced that the need for a podcast

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<v Speaker 1>like this where we consistently talk about making a commitment

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<v Speaker 1>to reality is important. And as I was thinking about it,

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<v Speaker 1>I started to think about the old joke about a

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<v Speaker 1>man at a party and he's talking to a woman

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<v Speaker 1>and he says, hey, would you sleep with me for

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<v Speaker 1>a million dollars? And the woman says, you know, for

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<v Speaker 1>a million dollars, I think I would, And he says, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>what about fifty? It said fifty dollars? What kind of

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<v Speaker 1>a woman, do you think I am? He says, well,

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<v Speaker 1>we've already established that. Now we're just haggling over the price.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's a joke, but it could also

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<v Speaker 1>act as a parable, a parable for our principles. And

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<v Speaker 1>when we cease being committed to something, it's almost as

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<v Speaker 1>though we become commodified when it comes to the practices

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<v Speaker 1>that we really commit ourselves to. And I wonder if

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<v Speaker 1>for the sake of efficiency, for the sake of progress money,

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<v Speaker 1>have we done that when it comes to reality and

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<v Speaker 1>our humanity? I mean, your book is called are we

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<v Speaker 1>all cyborgs now? Reclaiming our humanity from the machine? Have

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<v Speaker 1>we done that to reality?

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<v Speaker 2>That's a great, great opener. I really like that, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think in some ways we have already made that bargain.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's not a coincidence that many of the philosophers

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<v Speaker 2>of technology have referred to technological trade offs as a

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<v Speaker 2>Faustian bargain, as a deal where we sort of sell

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<v Speaker 2>our soul to the devil in exchange for efficiency, productivity, measurability, quantification,

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<v Speaker 2>things like that. Right, I think that's really the question

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<v Speaker 2>we need to be asking. Have we already crossed that

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<v Speaker 2>threshold into viewing ourselves as machines and treating others as

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<v Speaker 2>machines or objects. As you said, we tend to commodify ourselves.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I really like that as a starting point

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<v Speaker 2>to a launching off point, and that's really where we

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<v Speaker 2>start the book. Like I said, have we already sort

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<v Speaker 2>of crept into a cyborg existence? We call it the

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<v Speaker 2>cyborg creep right, where it just sort of little by little,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, haggling over now right in the joke

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<v Speaker 2>you gave, that creep has already sort of started, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's underway, whether we have a chip in our brain, right,

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<v Speaker 2>whether we've actually literally merged with technology or not. Living

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<v Speaker 2>in the digital age, it's so easy just to creep

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<v Speaker 2>into that cyborg mindset and to really live through our

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<v Speaker 2>machines in a way that in prior eras wasn't possible.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's also a part where you talk about how

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<v Speaker 1>AI sentience. You know, we're all so fascinated or concerned

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<v Speaker 1>or intrigued, whatever word you want to use with Let's say,

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<v Speaker 1>let's take chat, GBT and all of these large language models.

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<v Speaker 1>Do they pass the Turing test? Like are they conscious?

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<v Speaker 1>Do they have sentience, and I think that you made

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<v Speaker 1>a really important distinction, that that's a distraction. The real

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<v Speaker 1>question is that whether machines can think? But what about

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<v Speaker 1>when humans start living like machines?

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<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. Yeah, And this is not a new question.

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<v Speaker 2>This is one that we draw on a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>philosophers of technology in the book. And one of the

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<v Speaker 2>stories I love the best is from Joseph Weisenbaum in

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<v Speaker 2>the sixties, the MIT professor who was on the front

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<v Speaker 2>edge of computer science and artificial intelligence as that was

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<v Speaker 2>really emerging as a movement in the fifties and sixties,

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<v Speaker 2>and he created what many have called the first chatbot,

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<v Speaker 2>a program called Eliza, which could simulate human conversation in

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<v Speaker 2>sort of a psychiatrist type setting, and he had people

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<v Speaker 2>testing it at MIT and including his secretary, and at

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<v Speaker 2>one point a secretary asked him to leave the room

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<v Speaker 2>so that she could continue her conversation with Eliza, and

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<v Speaker 2>Weisenbaum really just became so distraught over what was happening

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<v Speaker 2>with this very basic chatbot program. People were humanizing it, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he really became a canary in the coal mine.

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<v Speaker 2>Wrote a great book called a Computer Power and Human Reason,

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<v Speaker 2>in which he lays out his argument that we need

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<v Speaker 2>to stop using this machine template to think about ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>because just as you said, we end up humanizing our

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<v Speaker 2>machines and mechanizing our elves. Right, And so he really

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the key figures we use in the book,

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<v Speaker 2>and he has a lot to offer in his way

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<v Speaker 2>of thinking about this from being on the front lines

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<v Speaker 2>of this AI movement, if we could call it that,

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<v Speaker 2>as it emerged to becoming one of the profits of

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<v Speaker 2>warning about what would happen as we continually sort of

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<v Speaker 2>think of ourselves through the machine template. And you got

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<v Speaker 2>to remember he's doing this in the sixties, long before

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<v Speaker 2>we all carried around a supercomputer in our pocket, right,

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<v Speaker 2>long before these large language models had the capabilities they

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<v Speaker 2>have today. But the same basic problems problem remains.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I mean even since you wrote this book,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean when was it officially published August of twenty four,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's old news by this point. I mean, just

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<v Speaker 1>think about everything that you discussed in the book and

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<v Speaker 1>how much the technological world has already changed in less

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<v Speaker 1>than two years. And is this something that you're keeping

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<v Speaker 1>up with or sure? Obviously for the book.

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<v Speaker 2>Robin, my co author, Robin Phillips and I were very

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<v Speaker 2>much keeping up with this day to day, all the

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<v Speaker 2>new articles that are coming out. We've continued to stay

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<v Speaker 2>up as much as we can, but it's also important

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<v Speaker 2>to take a little break from that type of intense research.

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<v Speaker 2>And really it's easy to get consumed by these topics

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<v Speaker 2>and something that we want to try to avoid, especially

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<v Speaker 2>with the themes we're writing about. So yeah, we've kept

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<v Speaker 2>up with them closely, and it's been interesting to see

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<v Speaker 2>what's happened since the book. For sure. When we wrote

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<v Speaker 2>the book, the latest model was chat GPT four O

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<v Speaker 2>that had just been released, and that O stands for omni,

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<v Speaker 2>which I think is a pretty telling thing. Especially within

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<v Speaker 2>the book, we refer to digital devices as omni tools,

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<v Speaker 2>as things that can do way more than prior technologies

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<v Speaker 2>and tools could which were tended to be single use tools, right,

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<v Speaker 2>static things, whereas digital devices tend to be much more dynamic,

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<v Speaker 2>which also has effects on how they impact us. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>lots has changed since the book, But the way we

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<v Speaker 2>frame the book is that, look, we want to provide

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<v Speaker 2>a framework for thinking about these things that will stand

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<v Speaker 2>the test of time, and I think the framework is

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<v Speaker 2>holding up well, and a lot of the things that

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<v Speaker 2>we were sort of warning about and wagering on are

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<v Speaker 2>coming to the fore I think, and coming to fruition.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, we'll be wrong on some matters, but the

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<v Speaker 2>overriding thing is the framework, Right, how do we think

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<v Speaker 2>about these technological questions, because what's not going to change

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<v Speaker 2>is our humanity, our understanding of what it means to

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<v Speaker 2>be a human, our understanding of God and the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And if we can ground the discussions there, then you

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<v Speaker 2>know a book will be durable and be able to

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<v Speaker 2>handle whatever comes in the tech future.

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<v Speaker 1>The book is incredible. It's like a field guide to

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<v Speaker 1>working through these issues because in a lot of ways

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<v Speaker 1>you point to the past, right, and we'll get to

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<v Speaker 1>that as we go forward. But you talk about this

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<v Speaker 1>technology and how it's changing, and how it's an omni tool,

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<v Speaker 1>how it's so much different than prior versions of technology

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<v Speaker 1>that our world came into contact with. How is this

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<v Speaker 1>digitization and on the tool? How is it different? How

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<v Speaker 1>is it a reality mediating mechanism as you call it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, great question. People will say, well, we've had technological

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<v Speaker 2>changes before, isn't this just you know, the same thing basically,

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<v Speaker 2>And I understand the point, but I really think it's

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<v Speaker 2>a fairly shallow perspective and one that we can push

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<v Speaker 2>back on in several areas. For one, as I've already

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<v Speaker 2>sort of hinted at, prior technologies tended to be static

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<v Speaker 2>in their use and tended to be very mechanical and observable,

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<v Speaker 2>intuitive right by nature. Think of technologies of the Industrial revolution.

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<v Speaker 2>You have gears and pulleys and levers, and you can

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<v Speaker 2>sort of see how those things work. Digital technologies are hidden,

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<v Speaker 2>they're obscured, and zeros and ones. They're almost like magic.

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<v Speaker 2>And many philosophers of technology have pointed this out that

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<v Speaker 2>when technology gets sufficiently complex, it's really indistinguishable from magic.

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<v Speaker 2>Very few of us know how our smokephone works. We

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<v Speaker 2>can't really peel back the layers in a way that's

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<v Speaker 2>easy to understand. Prior technologies you could do that in

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<v Speaker 2>an easier way. Also, prior technologies tended to still involve

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<v Speaker 2>the body in a more central way. I think of

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<v Speaker 2>tools in a workshop, or even a car. You still

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<v Speaker 2>traditionally have had to engage your body with the car,

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<v Speaker 2>use your feet for the brakes, and use your hand

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<v Speaker 2>with the steering wheel and so forth right. Digital technologies

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<v Speaker 2>are disembodying by their very nature. They are by sort

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<v Speaker 2>of default, separating you from your body or allowing your ideas,

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<v Speaker 2>your voice, your image to transport itself beyond your bodily presence.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's different. And then perhaps the biggest difference, they

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<v Speaker 2>go with us everywhere. They're ubiquitous. When I'm done using

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<v Speaker 2>a hammer in my workshop to make furniture, a saw

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<v Speaker 2>or chisel or even a table saw, right, an electricified tool,

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<v Speaker 2>it stays there and I put the tool down or

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<v Speaker 2>I leave the tool. The digital goes with us and

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<v Speaker 2>it talks back in a way that prior technologies don't.

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<v Speaker 2>And those types of things have huge effects on our attention,

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<v Speaker 2>our desires, and are really designed purposefully. Right. This is

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<v Speaker 2>called persuasive design by Silicon Valley. I call it attention hacking.

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<v Speaker 2>My hammer isn't designed with persuasive design to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>hack my attention. It's designed for a specific task and

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<v Speaker 2>then I put it down and I'm done. Digital devices

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<v Speaker 2>are not that way. So we need to really recognize

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<v Speaker 2>that to start with that these things are different. Whether

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<v Speaker 2>they're categorically different or not. We could have an argument

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<v Speaker 2>about but certainly they're significantly different and have many more

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<v Speaker 2>effects on our human capacities and abilities.

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<v Speaker 1>So you just hinted at something, and I think, if

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<v Speaker 1>it's not the first chapter in the book that you wrote,

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<v Speaker 1>it's very near to it. And I have to be

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<v Speaker 1>honest with you. When I got to it, I pick

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<v Speaker 1>up this book. I was so excited when I got

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<v Speaker 1>when Robin sent it over, I was like, Oh, I

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<v Speaker 1>can't wait to dive into this. And I open the

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<v Speaker 1>book and it starts with a chapter by you on woodworking,

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<v Speaker 1>and I thought, I feel like I have to read

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<v Speaker 1>it because it's the first chapter, but I don't want to.

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<v Speaker 1>This doesn't sound interesting, this doesn't sound relevant. And yet,

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<v Speaker 1>if you couldn't have set the stage for the issue

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<v Speaker 1>in a better way, what has woodworking taught you about

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<v Speaker 1>reality and the importance of being embodied?

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<v Speaker 2>We use that chapter as a launching off point just

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<v Speaker 2>to reconnect us to what it means to be embodied beings, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and to bump up against the limits of reality through

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<v Speaker 2>a trade. You know, for me it's woodworking, for other

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<v Speaker 2>people it might be exercise. Right, There's all sorts of

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<v Speaker 2>ways that we bump up against the limits of reality,

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<v Speaker 2>and if we don't do that, we start to have

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<v Speaker 2>a false idea of ourselves and our autonomy and our

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<v Speaker 2>control and what I already said, sort of the disembodied

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<v Speaker 2>way we think about ourselves in the digital world. So

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<v Speaker 2>woodworking also bumps up against technological questions like I can

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<v Speaker 2>choose to use hand tools or I can choose to

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<v Speaker 2>use power tools. When I use hand tools, I'm oriented

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<v Speaker 2>to the work differently than I am want to use

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<v Speaker 2>power tools. If I'm using handplanes to flatten stock, then

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<v Speaker 2>I need to pay attention to the grain. I need

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<v Speaker 2>to almost get in a state of flow, as many

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<v Speaker 2>people call it, when I'm planing the wood and sort

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<v Speaker 2>of getting into a rhythm with my body and listening

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<v Speaker 2>with my ears to the handplane and the noise it's

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<v Speaker 2>making over the wood, and I'm feeling with my hands

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<v Speaker 2>any rough spots sort of chatter it's called where the

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<v Speaker 2>plane gets stuck. That creates a whole sense of engagement

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<v Speaker 2>with my process, sort of a relationship to the wood

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<v Speaker 2>that we might even say is intimate to a certain degree.

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<v Speaker 2>When I use a power tool like a planer to

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<v Speaker 2>surface wood, I plug it in, I hit the button,

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<v Speaker 2>and I set the depth and I run it through

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<v Speaker 2>and that's amazing. It's an amazing technology and I use it.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'd be lying if I said it didn't orient

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<v Speaker 2>me differently to the work. I don't have to pay

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<v Speaker 2>attention to the grain. I just push it on through.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I'm making big woodworking projects, I'm very glad

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<v Speaker 2>I have the planer because it speeds up my ability

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<v Speaker 2>to actually turn a profit. But that type of technological

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<v Speaker 2>dilemma we have all over our lives. Right, Maybe another

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<v Speaker 2>good way to think about it would be a guy

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<v Speaker 2>who goes to the forest with an axe to cut

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<v Speaker 2>down trees and clear the forest, versus a guy who

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<v Speaker 2>goes with a bulldozer in a logging truck. Right, that

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<v Speaker 2>different tool, that different technology that bringing with him is

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<v Speaker 2>going to orient him to the forest differently. It's going

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<v Speaker 2>to be much easier to clear cut the forest with

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<v Speaker 2>a bulldozer and a logging truck. He might be a

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<v Speaker 2>little more careful with the acts because it takes much

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<v Speaker 2>more sweat and labor physical labor in the process of

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<v Speaker 2>chopping down trees. So with that then in mind, then

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<v Speaker 2>we can launch off into the digital world. Right, what

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<v Speaker 2>are the trade offs? How are digital technologies orienting me

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<v Speaker 2>to the world and even to my perception of myself. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>the amount of power I have over nature and over

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<v Speaker 2>reality things like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, as as you say, I mean it leads us

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<v Speaker 1>into a gnostic like disembodied state. And when we're constantly

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<v Speaker 1>we just were stuck between our ears. Everything is James K.

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<v Speaker 1>Smith says. I quote him all the time when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to this, We've we've become heads on sticks, and

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<v Speaker 1>this is in every realm. I mean, unfortunately it creeps

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<v Speaker 1>into theology.

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<v Speaker 2>And worship practices. Yep, it's all related.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh we're getting there later, trust me. But how did

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<v Speaker 1>our body become the enemy of the story? I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it really feels like in our modern era we're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to supersede our physical nature. I mean, how did our

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<v Speaker 1>physical body become the antagonist of our tail?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's a great question, and we could give a

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<v Speaker 2>long answer for this, for sure, but I'll try to

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<v Speaker 2>hit on some highlights. I think it's going to include

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<v Speaker 2>the history of ideas and philosophy, right, sort of an

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<v Speaker 2>intellectual history, but it's also going to be a history

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<v Speaker 2>of our material environments, our inventions, our habits, our technologies,

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<v Speaker 2>and those two things interplay and interrelate to create what

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<v Speaker 2>Charles Taylor calls a social imaginary or Peter Berger calls

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<v Speaker 2>plausibility structures. So our ideas and our material culture together

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<v Speaker 2>make things seem right, make things seem possible, make things

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<v Speaker 2>seem desirable. So if we just highlight a few things

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<v Speaker 2>along the way in the realm of ideas, we do

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<v Speaker 2>have some antipathy to the body in ancient philosophy, certain

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<v Speaker 2>strains of Greek thoughts or gnosticism and things like that,

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<v Speaker 2>where the body is seen as really the anim me,

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<v Speaker 2>something to transcend and get out of, sort of the

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<v Speaker 2>prison house of the soul. And of course that's not

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<v Speaker 2>in all Greek philosophy. I don't want to simplify things there,

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<v Speaker 2>but there are some strains where the body there's an

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<v Speaker 2>antipathy to the body. So that would be one aspect.

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<v Speaker 2>Then we could speed up to the enlightenment and see

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<v Speaker 2>a thinker like Descartes. I think therefore I am where

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<v Speaker 2>again sort of that brain on a stick mentality really

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<v Speaker 2>creeps in. Further, those would again just be a few

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<v Speaker 2>highlights along the way in the realm of ideas. Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>let's take a minute and talk about the material side though,

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to material environments and inventions, If we

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<v Speaker 2>think about the development of technologies over time, in many

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<v Speaker 2>ways they have increased our power over nature and in

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<v Speaker 2>some ways made physical strength less important to survival, and

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<v Speaker 2>by doing that that changes the way you think about

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<v Speaker 2>your relationship to the world. The classic examples to compare

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<v Speaker 2>a medieval person to a modern person, the medieval person's

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<v Speaker 2>experience of nature and bumping up against the limits of reality,

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<v Speaker 2>and then comparing to a modern person. So medieval person's

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<v Speaker 2>experience of the weather is going to be much more primal,

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<v Speaker 2>if I could put it that way. You're going to

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<v Speaker 2>experience the ups and downs of temperature in ways that

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<v Speaker 2>we don't today. So we've insulated ourselves from that in

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<v Speaker 2>homes and in cars and all sorts of things. And

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<v Speaker 2>that weather is not only going to be physically felt,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's going to have a huge impact on your livelihood.

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<v Speaker 2>As a medieval person, if there's a famine, will then

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<v Speaker 2>there go your crops. So you were much more dependent

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<v Speaker 2>on natural rhythms and natural forces, and that oriented you

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<v Speaker 2>to the world as a creature, as a creature of God.

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<v Speaker 2>Now just fast forward to today, modern person, we insulate

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves from the weather, as we already said, in highly

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<v Speaker 2>insulated homes, and when we want to get warm or

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<v Speaker 2>stay cool, we just push a button on the AC unit,

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<v Speaker 2>or maybe on our phone. We just slide or tap

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<v Speaker 2>and change the temperature in our home to stay warm.

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<v Speaker 2>In medieval times, you had a lot more labor to do, right,

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<v Speaker 2>You had to chop the wood, you had to light

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<v Speaker 2>the fire and deal with the consequences of that in

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<v Speaker 2>your home or your small shed, basically whatever you were

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<v Speaker 2>living in. Now we could go on transportation. The medieval

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<v Speaker 2>person was bound to his local community. We have cars

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<v Speaker 2>and planes, right, things that allow us to transcend our

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<v Speaker 2>location of ways that prior generations didn't. And again that

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<v Speaker 2>changes the way we think about ourselves, the world, and

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<v Speaker 2>even God. The medieval person it was easier for them

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<v Speaker 2>to view themselves as a creature that was embedded in

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<v Speaker 2>a community, that was bound to other people in ways

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<v Speaker 2>that we don't. Right. We think of ourselves as autonomous

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<v Speaker 2>in control and not as creatures, right, but as really

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<v Speaker 2>self creators. So that would be a short answer to

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<v Speaker 2>your question. I know we could go on and on there,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't know if you have any rabbit trails

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<v Speaker 2>you want to run down there.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, there's so many. Preparing for this conversation was difficult

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<v Speaker 1>because the book it's just so rich and so deep,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's so many tributaries that you could go down.

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<v Speaker 2>That's sort of the point of the book is to

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<v Speaker 2>bring an interdisciplinary approach and to show how all these

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<v Speaker 2>things are connected. That's where a lot of books on

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<v Speaker 2>these topics sort of focus on one aspect. We wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to show how this really relates to everything that.

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<v Speaker 1>Really functions as a field guide to reality and how

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<v Speaker 1>you can commit to it in a sense, not not

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<v Speaker 1>to just go back to the theme of the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>over and over. I mean, there's so much in here,

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<v Speaker 1>and one of the things that really caught me was

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<v Speaker 1>your personal practices and how they create freedom for you

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<v Speaker 1>to live an embodied life. One you say, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>have internet at home.

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<v Speaker 2>So this has been really a long term commitment for

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<v Speaker 2>me and my family. So right now I'm not at home.

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<v Speaker 2>We're doing this from church where I work, and when

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<v Speaker 2>I was a teacher for many years that was our

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<v Speaker 2>practice as well to not have internet at home. So

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<v Speaker 2>when we need to do things on the internet for

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<v Speaker 2>many years while I still had my wife and I

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<v Speaker 2>still had flip phones. Is we basically jot down a

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<v Speaker 2>list of things that we want to do on the internet.

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<v Speaker 2>We'd go to the library or I'd do it at

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<v Speaker 2>school and then pronounce things to do at home or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's been our approach for a long time. We

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<v Speaker 2>do have smartphones now. I admit I've had a smartphone

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<v Speaker 2>since COVID. I guess it was maybe a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>before my wife and I did get smartphones at that point.

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<v Speaker 2>But I will say, man, you can see its effects

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<v Speaker 2>even when you know what it does. It's just so

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<v Speaker 2>hard at tension spans and things. It just becomes the

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<v Speaker 2>default thing to do. We're actually thinking about purchasing one

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<v Speaker 2>of these newer options that have emerged where trying to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of return to sort of a dumb phone. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of good options out there for folks in

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<v Speaker 2>this realm. The light phone, the yse phone, punked. There's

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<v Speaker 2>a whole bunch of companies that are trying to provide

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<v Speaker 2>a product that allows you to return the phone to

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<v Speaker 2>the tool lane right rather than the omni toool lane.

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<v Speaker 2>But that could be a hold on the rabbit trail there.

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<v Speaker 2>So now when we need the Internet, we can hotspot

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<v Speaker 2>our phones, but even that is a barrier to entry,

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<v Speaker 2>a small barrier. The computer's default setting is that it's

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<v Speaker 2>off in our home and it's not connected to the internet.

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<v Speaker 2>So if we need to do something with the computer,

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<v Speaker 2>but then we open the computer and turn it on.

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<v Speaker 2>If we need to use the Internet, then we would

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<v Speaker 2>hotspot our phone and connect our laptop to the phone.

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<v Speaker 2>So I do have access to the Internet at home

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<v Speaker 2>now when I need it, But again I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>important to have some barriers to entry for people. This

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<v Speaker 2>is just a classic strategy of habits and habit formation.

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<v Speaker 2>James Clear talks about this and atomic habits. The things

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<v Speaker 2>you want to create for good habits, you want to

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<v Speaker 2>lower the barrier of entry towards and things that you

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<v Speaker 2>want to avoid or eliminate. You raise the barrier to

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<v Speaker 2>entry to So that's the way we do that with

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<v Speaker 2>the relation to the Internet. We just raise the barrier

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit. We make it harder to enter that realm,

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<v Speaker 2>and we make things that we want to do, write

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<v Speaker 2>better things easier to enter. And that principle just translates

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<v Speaker 2>all over the place. In the home where do you

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<v Speaker 2>keep your devices? Are there parts of your home that

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<v Speaker 2>you don't allow them to go? What default activities do

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<v Speaker 2>you want you and your children to do? What should

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<v Speaker 2>it be easier to turn on right? Should it be

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<v Speaker 2>easier to turn on the TV or a device? Or

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<v Speaker 2>should be easier to play board games right? Or read

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<v Speaker 2>books or play the piano, those types of things.

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<v Speaker 1>The word that keeps coming through my mind as you're

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<v Speaker 1>talking is just intentionality. That's really like being intentional with

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<v Speaker 1>your lives. Because with the phone, I mean, how many

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<v Speaker 1>times have you heard somebody say, oh, I picked up

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<v Speaker 1>my phone and an hour later I was still just

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<v Speaker 1>sitting there scrolling through.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's we just get steamrolled. It's not a

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<v Speaker 2>matter of willpower. Right. These things are designed purposely to

419
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.119
<v Speaker 2>hacker attention. Right, they're dopamine dispensers and all of that.

420
00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:21.119
<v Speaker 2>Then it's a poll. Peter Limberger talks about it as

421
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:23.720
<v Speaker 2>a gravitational poll. To fight that. The first thing is

422
00:21:23.759 --> 00:21:25.920
<v Speaker 2>again to be intentional, to realize that it's a battle,

423
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:28.119
<v Speaker 2>and then to structure your life in such a way

424
00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.599
<v Speaker 2>that you can nudge yourself to better things right and

425
00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:35.279
<v Speaker 2>resist the nudges of the device. Yeah, intentionality is so

426
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.240
<v Speaker 2>key here, and the way we mostly orient to technology

427
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:39.680
<v Speaker 2>is we just go along with it. That's sort of

428
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.599
<v Speaker 2>our default set. The progress. You know, Newest is the greatest,

429
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:47.079
<v Speaker 2>Latest is greatest. If this, if we can do something technologically,

430
00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:49.799
<v Speaker 2>we should, It's called the technological imperative. We totally need

431
00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.400
<v Speaker 2>to push back on that and really develop a personal

432
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.119
<v Speaker 2>philosophy of technology. Newcour talks about this in digital minimalism.

433
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.039
<v Speaker 2>That's the first step to realize the problem and develop

434
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.079
<v Speaker 2>a personal philosophy of technology and intentional relationship to your

435
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.720
<v Speaker 2>devices that then allows you to have freedom.

436
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's so interesting because when I, I mean, you

437
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.319
<v Speaker 1>talked about how your students when you used to teach

438
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:11.759
<v Speaker 1>would find out that you didn't have Internet and they think, oh,

439
00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:15.640
<v Speaker 1>you're like prehistoric. But even as I read it, I

440
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:19.079
<v Speaker 1>had that reaction like, oh, man, that would be so difficult.

441
00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:23.680
<v Speaker 1>And before I got married, I was a vagabond. I

442
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:25.440
<v Speaker 1>mean people use that to I was a real I

443
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.680
<v Speaker 1>mean I had lived all over the world. I would

444
00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:31.200
<v Speaker 1>just find work, and up until I got married, I

445
00:22:31.279 --> 00:22:34.000
<v Speaker 1>never had a TV in the home. I was like you,

446
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.599
<v Speaker 1>I was a very late adopter to the smartphone world.

447
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:40.519
<v Speaker 1>At one point I didn't even have a phone. I

448
00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.400
<v Speaker 1>don't even I think about it. I constantly think about this,

449
00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:45.720
<v Speaker 1>even just getting from point A to point a B.

450
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.480
<v Speaker 1>How did we do that before we had GPS? I mean,

451
00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.319
<v Speaker 1>we clearly did, but I don't remember. And it's it's

452
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:58.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking about my own life. And historically I was

453
00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:01.799
<v Speaker 1>able to do this because I was very intentional about

454
00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.039
<v Speaker 1>what I wanted out of life. I didn't want to

455
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:06.799
<v Speaker 1>sit at home and watch TV. If I was at home,

456
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.200
<v Speaker 1>I would read. But a lot of the time I

457
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.799
<v Speaker 1>was just traveling and I was out there experiencing the world.

458
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:17.720
<v Speaker 1>And so if I have a hard time grasping you know,

459
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:20.640
<v Speaker 1>the idea of being intentional, because we think, man, that's

460
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:23.720
<v Speaker 1>going to be really hard. Just think about how inconvenient

461
00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:26.039
<v Speaker 1>that's going to be. Just think about the lack of

462
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:28.119
<v Speaker 1>efficiency that we're going to have in our household if

463
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.279
<v Speaker 1>we don't have these things. And I told you the

464
00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:35.119
<v Speaker 1>woodworking chapter had happened again. You just had this penchant

465
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:37.279
<v Speaker 1>for writing these chapters that I got there and I thought,

466
00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:40.599
<v Speaker 1>all right, this is a book on technology. Why do

467
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:43.480
<v Speaker 1>I want to learn about the Amish or the lad Heights?

468
00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:47.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, lut Heights. They're the fools, right, And yet

469
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:50.519
<v Speaker 1>I was captivating. I mean I told my wife, I

470
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:51.920
<v Speaker 1>was like, I kind of just want to talk to

471
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:58.920
<v Speaker 1>him about the Amish because we as technology keeps coming out,

472
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:01.079
<v Speaker 1>like you think, you call it the time technological imperative,

473
00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:03.559
<v Speaker 1>Like if we just have to go along with progress.

474
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we're in this rapidly flowing river and we

475
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:09.160
<v Speaker 1>don't know what to do, and we feel like if

476
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:12.079
<v Speaker 1>we don't go along. Now there's the macro. If we

477
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.000
<v Speaker 1>don't go along, I mean, everybody's scared of AI and

478
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:17.640
<v Speaker 1>feels like we should put limits on this. But if

479
00:24:17.640 --> 00:24:21.000
<v Speaker 1>we don't, they will. That's the macro if you're talking

480
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.920
<v Speaker 1>about countries. But then there's even just the issue of businesses.

481
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:28.759
<v Speaker 1>If we don't adapt, we're going to get left behind.

482
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:34.559
<v Speaker 1>And then it goes down to families, communities, individuals. If

483
00:24:34.599 --> 00:24:37.079
<v Speaker 1>I don't, I'm going to get left behind. And I

484
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.680
<v Speaker 1>always over over the past several years, we're going to

485
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:43.640
<v Speaker 1>become Amish if we don't do this. And I said

486
00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:48.279
<v Speaker 1>that as a negative, But I mean, is there a

487
00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:51.519
<v Speaker 1>sense that the Amish have this right?

488
00:24:53.599 --> 00:24:56.359
<v Speaker 2>That's a great question. Yes, and no, I think there

489
00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:00.359
<v Speaker 2>are aspects of the Amish that are very admirable and

490
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.319
<v Speaker 2>that we should learn from, for sure. And that's the

491
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:05.519
<v Speaker 2>point of the chapter when it comes to the Amish

492
00:25:05.559 --> 00:25:08.759
<v Speaker 2>in the Latites, and just sort of as a side note,

493
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.119
<v Speaker 2>Amish communities are actually growing and exploding at rates that

494
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:14.680
<v Speaker 2>our pretty at dounding. They're spreading into New States and

495
00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:16.880
<v Speaker 2>all sorts of things. Twenty first century might be the

496
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:19.200
<v Speaker 2>revenge of the Amish. Who knows you heard it here first?

497
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:22.480
<v Speaker 2>Now the things that I love about the Amish. I

498
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:25.640
<v Speaker 2>went to a college in a portion of Pennsylvania that

499
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:29.359
<v Speaker 2>had some sort of Amish roots and Mennonite Brethren roots,

500
00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:32.000
<v Speaker 2>and some of the professors really did a ton of

501
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.000
<v Speaker 2>research in this area and published books, and that was

502
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:36.559
<v Speaker 2>sort of my first exposure as a sort of a

503
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:40.319
<v Speaker 2>teen to this world and their way of thinking. And

504
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:42.119
<v Speaker 2>then when I went to grad school, I had another

505
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.200
<v Speaker 2>professor who would go and visit Amish communities and do

506
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of research that way. So that was sort

507
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:50.000
<v Speaker 2>of my gateway into thinking about this, and I've continued

508
00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 2>to be fascinated by these communities and especially their approach

509
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:57.240
<v Speaker 2>to technology. Now it's easy to think that, oh, they're

510
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:01.279
<v Speaker 2>anti tech, right, but it's a much more nuanced position. Really.

511
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:05.359
<v Speaker 2>They embrace certain technologies, and they're even willing to use

512
00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:10.279
<v Speaker 2>certain mechanized things just that aren't necessarily connect to electrical grid. Right.

513
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:13.079
<v Speaker 2>A lot of times they'll, for example, the woodworking world

514
00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:17.160
<v Speaker 2>that I live in, they'll use mechanized woodworking tools, they

515
00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.720
<v Speaker 2>just won't use them in their electric form, right, They'll

516
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:22.640
<v Speaker 2>run them on compressed air or something like that. There's

517
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>actually folks that convert woodworking equipment to be Amish friendly,

518
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.799
<v Speaker 2>from running on electric motors to running on compressed air

519
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.839
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. So they use technologies, but the

520
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:36.640
<v Speaker 2>questions they ask about technologies are ones we should ask,

521
00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:38.960
<v Speaker 2>what is this going to do to the community, what

522
00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:40.799
<v Speaker 2>is this going to do to the sacred precincts of

523
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.000
<v Speaker 2>the home, and what is this going to do to me?

524
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.920
<v Speaker 2>And those types of basic questions are just common sense

525
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:49.920
<v Speaker 2>questions for a great sort of diagnostic set of questions

526
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:51.680
<v Speaker 2>to ask. In one of the books I read for

527
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:54.319
<v Speaker 2>that chapter and preparing, there was a bunch of people

528
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:55.880
<v Speaker 2>that were visiting, like I can't remember if it was

529
00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:58.920
<v Speaker 2>an Amish like furniture factory or something, but some type

530
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.039
<v Speaker 2>of tour setting and the guide said, how many of

531
00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:04.759
<v Speaker 2>you watch too much TV? And how many of you

532
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:07.200
<v Speaker 2>use your phone too much? And everybody's hand went up, right,

533
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:09.200
<v Speaker 2>how many of you would like to do something about that,

534
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:12.720
<v Speaker 2>right and change your relationship to all these devices? Everybody's hands,

535
00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:14.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's a great idea. And then the guy said,

536
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:19.039
<v Speaker 2>we actually do something about it. I think that's just

537
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>a great way to think about it. They don't just

538
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:26.200
<v Speaker 2>complain or bemoan the situation. They've made decisions, very intentional

539
00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:29.599
<v Speaker 2>decisions to craft a different relationship to technology for the

540
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.480
<v Speaker 2>sake of their community, for their family, and the passing

541
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.920
<v Speaker 2>down of a tradition right that they value. And in

542
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:37.960
<v Speaker 2>large part it works. Their retention rates are much higher

543
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.319
<v Speaker 2>than other Christian denominations. Of course, we always hear stories

544
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.000
<v Speaker 2>of people that leave aumage communities, right, but that the

545
00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:46.839
<v Speaker 2>norm is that they say. What's interesting though, some of

546
00:27:46.880 --> 00:27:49.240
<v Speaker 2>the books that have been written more recently in this

547
00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:53.279
<v Speaker 2>field are talking about the impact of the smartphone on

548
00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:57.039
<v Speaker 2>amash communities because it's much harder to police because it

549
00:27:57.079 --> 00:27:58.960
<v Speaker 2>goes with you in your pocket in a way that

550
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:02.200
<v Speaker 2>these prior technologies that they had questions about did not.

551
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.359
<v Speaker 2>So that's that's going to be interesting to see how

552
00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:08.359
<v Speaker 2>even the smartphone might affect Amish communities and is affecting

553
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Amish communities. There's a place in Amish communities for communal discernment, right,

554
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:13.920
<v Speaker 2>and that's really important.

555
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:17.480
<v Speaker 1>There's an interesting distinction, but as with everything, sometimes the

556
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:22.279
<v Speaker 1>smallest distinction makes the biggest difference. The Amish have access

557
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.839
<v Speaker 1>without ownership, so they use cars, but they don't own cars.

558
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:29.319
<v Speaker 1>They'll use phones, let's say, in their business, but they

559
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:31.920
<v Speaker 1>won't bring them into their home. And that discernment, that

560
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:35.359
<v Speaker 1>distinguishing factor. How important is that? And what can we

561
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:38.279
<v Speaker 1>learn and almost bring in if we're trying to become

562
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:41.799
<v Speaker 1>somewhat Amish in our own world in terms of trying

563
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.400
<v Speaker 1>to embrace the embodiment of our day to day life,

564
00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:49.200
<v Speaker 1>how can we do that by practicing that discernment Because

565
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.720
<v Speaker 1>on some level, it's almost what you're doing when you

566
00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:57.559
<v Speaker 1>choose to have internet in your home via the hotspot. Yeah, yeah,

567
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:01.319
<v Speaker 1>you have the access, but it's not all encompassing ownership.

568
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:02.480
<v Speaker 1>It's not all the time.

569
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. I think it shows there's a place

570
00:29:06.359 --> 00:29:08.519
<v Speaker 2>for nuanced thinking here. It's not like an all or

571
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:11.640
<v Speaker 2>nothing deal in the Amish model that and we can too.

572
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.839
<v Speaker 2>I can choose to have access to certain technologies, maybe

573
00:29:14.839 --> 00:29:16.920
<v Speaker 2>at work or at the library, and maybe not in

574
00:29:17.000 --> 00:29:20.240
<v Speaker 2>my home. Those types of things are good creative solutions

575
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.880
<v Speaker 2>that allow us to benefit from the goods of these

576
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:27.799
<v Speaker 2>technologies and also minimize their detrimental effects on me as

577
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:30.200
<v Speaker 2>an individual, or for me and my family, or on

578
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.359
<v Speaker 2>the communal level. I think that's a really good way

579
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.559
<v Speaker 2>to think about this. None of us are saying that

580
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.920
<v Speaker 2>there's no goods that come from these potential technologies. It's

581
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:44.319
<v Speaker 2>just that we need to recognize the potential detriments and

582
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:47.519
<v Speaker 2>situate them in our lives in ways that allow us

583
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:50.759
<v Speaker 2>hopefully to benefit from the goods and not to be

584
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.960
<v Speaker 2>impacted negatively by their detriments.

585
00:29:53.240 --> 00:29:56.519
<v Speaker 1>I have to admit I only ever use the word

586
00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:59.240
<v Speaker 1>Luddite as a slur, and that's the only context that

587
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.119
<v Speaker 1>I understood it from. That's somebody who's kind of like

588
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:05.039
<v Speaker 1>dull or anti technology or whatever, doesn't want to get

589
00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:08.839
<v Speaker 1>with the program when it comes to progress. And it

590
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:10.640
<v Speaker 1>wasn't until I read your book that I realized that

591
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:13.519
<v Speaker 1>Luod Heights were actual people in a place in time

592
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:16.160
<v Speaker 1>who were the lud Heightes and what can we learn

593
00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:17.519
<v Speaker 1>from them?

594
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:21.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this was a group in England in the

595
00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.559
<v Speaker 2>Industrial Revolution that were very familiar with technologies. They were

596
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:31.440
<v Speaker 2>using machines and factories. But as certain new industrial technologies emerged,

597
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:34.559
<v Speaker 2>they became concerned about what it was doing to their labor,

598
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:38.079
<v Speaker 2>to their agency right, to their ability to have control

599
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.039
<v Speaker 2>in a certain sense over the product they were making,

600
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:43.920
<v Speaker 2>over their livelihood, and what that was going to do

601
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.279
<v Speaker 2>then and impact on their community and on their family.

602
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.480
<v Speaker 2>And so what they ended up doing is really resisting

603
00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.799
<v Speaker 2>the latest technology that was emerging in the factories at

604
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:59.240
<v Speaker 2>the time, and they did become known for smashing some machines,

605
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:03.599
<v Speaker 2>and that's the origin of sort of the Luodite straw

606
00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:06.319
<v Speaker 2>man is, oh, these are just people the smash machines

607
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.039
<v Speaker 2>and hate technology. But they actually knew how to use

608
00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:11.039
<v Speaker 2>many of the machines in the factories. They were very

609
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.079
<v Speaker 2>technologically adept. But they also realized where these new technologies

610
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.400
<v Speaker 2>were going and what it was going to do to

611
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.720
<v Speaker 2>the economy, to the nature of labor, was going to

612
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:25.079
<v Speaker 2>essentially reduce them to cogs in a machine in the factory,

613
00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:27.759
<v Speaker 2>and they were concerned about that that then they would

614
00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 2>become replaceable, that this would have an impact on their

615
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:34.079
<v Speaker 2>income and on their families, and those things drove them

616
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:37.759
<v Speaker 2>to raise serious questions about technological developments. So it wasn't

617
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:40.039
<v Speaker 2>again just like the Amish, it's it's not an anti

618
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:43.319
<v Speaker 2>tech approach. It's asking questions, what is this going to

619
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:45.319
<v Speaker 2>do to the meaning of my labor, the meaning of

620
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:47.359
<v Speaker 2>my life, the way I provide for my family, and

621
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:47.920
<v Speaker 2>things like that.

622
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:50.920
<v Speaker 1>You didn't say this in the book, but as I

623
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:54.480
<v Speaker 1>was thinking about the line of Okay, you've got the Amish,

624
00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:00.759
<v Speaker 1>you've got the Bloodites, what about monastics because practice a

625
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:03.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of the same principles they you know, they kind

626
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.160
<v Speaker 1>of assess and they bring some or they don't depending

627
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.640
<v Speaker 1>on the circumstance, and even probably more so than the Amish,

628
00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:13.119
<v Speaker 1>because it's not as they have some sort of ban

629
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:17.000
<v Speaker 1>on the electrical grid. But do you see a connection

630
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:20.519
<v Speaker 1>with the monastics and is there something as Christians that

631
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:26.599
<v Speaker 1>we could really take and absorb from the monastic influence

632
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:28.559
<v Speaker 1>of that has kind of been dormant for a lot

633
00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:29.880
<v Speaker 1>of Western Christianity.

634
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:35.279
<v Speaker 2>Great connection, Absolutely, there's a lot of connections we can

635
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:38.400
<v Speaker 2>make to monasticism here in monastic wisdom. Yeah, right, on

636
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:40.319
<v Speaker 2>the money very good. There are a few points in

637
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:43.480
<v Speaker 2>the book where we refer to it as technological asceticism,

638
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.440
<v Speaker 2>that the decisions we make are a form of asceticism.

639
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:51.119
<v Speaker 2>We're denying ourselves certain things intentionally. Paul King's Norses North

640
00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:53.119
<v Speaker 2>has talked about this in the terms of being a

641
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:56.880
<v Speaker 2>technological ascetic. So, yes, we want to draw on that tradition.

642
00:32:57.039 --> 00:32:59.480
<v Speaker 2>We can reclaim the wisdom of the fathers here, the

643
00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Desert Fire monastic fathers. There's so much here, and we

644
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:05.240
<v Speaker 2>do have some quotes sort of sprinkled throughout the book

645
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:07.319
<v Speaker 2>from some of these folks, especially when they're talking about

646
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:11.839
<v Speaker 2>Acedia and sloth right and some of the seven Deadly sins,

647
00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:15.319
<v Speaker 2>subduing the passions. We need to train ourselves to do so,

648
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.039
<v Speaker 2>and the wisdom of the monastics here is something we

649
00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:22.240
<v Speaker 2>can definitely tap and should continue to tap in this age.

650
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:25.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, the West, as you said, has especially you know,

651
00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.839
<v Speaker 2>since the prosent Reformation, there's been sort of a looking

652
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.559
<v Speaker 2>down upon monasticism, and maybe there were some extremes that

653
00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:34.519
<v Speaker 2>needed to be addressed. We could have a discussion about that, perhaps,

654
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.240
<v Speaker 2>but there's wisdom there in the intentional living and in

655
00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:42.240
<v Speaker 2>the seriousness with which the disciplines are approached and the

656
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:46.880
<v Speaker 2>importance of reordering our desires right, retraining our desires towards higher,

657
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:50.599
<v Speaker 2>higher ends and permanent things. And that's the type of

658
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:54.599
<v Speaker 2>wisdom we need today. And I think the monastic language

659
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:57.079
<v Speaker 2>also is helpful when we think about the relationship to

660
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:03.359
<v Speaker 2>digital devices that we have. Ian Harbor of Mere Orthodoxy

661
00:34:03.519 --> 00:34:06.920
<v Speaker 2>wrote a recent article about this. Recently, he said we

662
00:34:06.920 --> 00:34:09.320
<v Speaker 2>should have a monk's and a missionaries approach to the

663
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.360
<v Speaker 2>digital age, and I love the way he fleshed us out.

664
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.639
<v Speaker 2>And what he said is that most people should be

665
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:18.239
<v Speaker 2>monks when it comes to the digital age. In other words,

666
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.880
<v Speaker 2>we should be very intentional about our relationship to the Internet,

667
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.559
<v Speaker 2>especially social media, and most of us probably don't need

668
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:26.440
<v Speaker 2>to spend a lot of time there, maybe none when

669
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:28.639
<v Speaker 2>it comes to social media. But then he also said

670
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.119
<v Speaker 2>there's going to be a missionaries approach too. There are

671
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.400
<v Speaker 2>going to be people that devote time and effort to

672
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:38.800
<v Speaker 2>having an intentional relationship to social media, YouTube things like that,

673
00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:42.639
<v Speaker 2>and producing good content and trying to bend this towards

674
00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.920
<v Speaker 2>better ends. I think that monks and missionaries framework isn't

675
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.280
<v Speaker 2>a bad one to think about, right, that we need

676
00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:52.280
<v Speaker 2>to have almost a monastic approach to these things, just

677
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:55.039
<v Speaker 2>because they're so alluring and so tempting and designed to

678
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.840
<v Speaker 2>be such. But then there's also a place in which

679
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:00.760
<v Speaker 2>we need to be putting good con tent into this

680
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.079
<v Speaker 2>space to bring people out of that space, to show

681
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:06.679
<v Speaker 2>them that there's a better world, a deeper world, another

682
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.400
<v Speaker 2>world in which they can they can sort of learn

683
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.800
<v Speaker 2>to grow into. And for many you know that we're

684
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:17.519
<v Speaker 2>seeing this unfold and sort of the internet pipeline into Christianity.

685
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.239
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of folks that discover, let's say, at

686
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Jordan Peterson or some somebody in the manosphere, right, and

687
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:27.599
<v Speaker 2>then they start learning a little bit more about Christianity,

688
00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:29.400
<v Speaker 2>and then all of a sudden they show up at

689
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:31.599
<v Speaker 2>a church. We just had a guy this Sunday show up, right,

690
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:34.159
<v Speaker 2>a young man who had been online, right, who had

691
00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:36.880
<v Speaker 2>been doing going down that pathway, that pipeline, and then

692
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:38.360
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden he's here. So that there is

693
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:40.719
<v Speaker 2>a place for sort of missional, a missional approach to

694
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:41.639
<v Speaker 2>these things as well.

695
00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:44.199
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if it's relevant, but you know, this

696
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:48.679
<v Speaker 1>is the point of a conversation when you talk about missionary.

697
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 1>I think about when I was younger and I would

698
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:57.360
<v Speaker 1>bring somebody home and I'd talked to my dad afterwards,

699
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.199
<v Speaker 1>and he'd be like, how's her? Is she a Christians?

700
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:03.840
<v Speaker 1>Her faith? So, oh, she's not, but she's interested. And

701
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:08.000
<v Speaker 1>it's the term missionary dating. I'm gonna win her over,

702
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:12.960
<v Speaker 1>not her worldview, winning mine over. And my dad and

703
00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:17.840
<v Speaker 1>his paternal wisdom would always say that rarely works out

704
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:22.320
<v Speaker 1>in the direction that you're intending. It actually almost always

705
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:27.559
<v Speaker 1>brings the other person down. And I think that's relevant

706
00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:33.159
<v Speaker 1>when discussing how intentional and careful we have to be,

707
00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:34.960
<v Speaker 1>because I sit there and I think I'll have to admit,

708
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.880
<v Speaker 1>even with this podcast, I thought, do we need more noise?

709
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:44.519
<v Speaker 1>Isn't the answer to remove ourselves? But at the same time,

710
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:47.920
<v Speaker 1>I see people coming in the front door of our

711
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:52.280
<v Speaker 1>church every Sunday, and I know that the vast majority

712
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:56.440
<v Speaker 1>of them are finding the church online, right, and so

713
00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:01.480
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of walking that narrow path and being extremely

714
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:06.679
<v Speaker 1>careful and discerning, and it's just prayerful the whole time.

715
00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:08.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, maybe you're a monk animissionary. At the same time,

716
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:16.920
<v Speaker 1>that's possible because man, the mediums are so insidious. I mean,

717
00:37:17.440 --> 00:37:20.639
<v Speaker 1>the way that they can grab you. Even as I'm

718
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.719
<v Speaker 1>working on this podcast, I'm finding myself on social media

719
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:26.639
<v Speaker 1>more and on the internet more.

720
00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

721
00:37:28.039 --> 00:37:31.880
<v Speaker 1>I've told my wife I love the conversations. I think

722
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:34.760
<v Speaker 1>they're rich and I think they will help people. But man,

723
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:38.000
<v Speaker 1>do I hate the aspect that encompasses social media and

724
00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:41.000
<v Speaker 1>you get stuck in it, even just deploying the things,

725
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:42.559
<v Speaker 1>sending them out into the universe.

726
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:46.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you'll have to develop intentional practices and boundaries

727
00:37:46.639 --> 00:37:48.920
<v Speaker 2>right to make sure that you don't get swallowed up

728
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:51.639
<v Speaker 2>by the machine here either. It's so easy, right to

729
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.599
<v Speaker 2>sort of get sucked up into that influencer mentality or

730
00:37:56.760 --> 00:38:00.239
<v Speaker 2>performative mentality, right, because as we know, the medium is

731
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:03.079
<v Speaker 2>the message. It nudges us, it forms us, and shapes

732
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:05.000
<v Speaker 2>us in a certain direction. So, yeah, there's a fine

733
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:08.280
<v Speaker 2>line here that individuals need to navigate. Also, churches need

734
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:10.880
<v Speaker 2>to navigate. And I think you know the way our

735
00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:14.679
<v Speaker 2>churches has dealt with this is the internet can be

736
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.920
<v Speaker 2>a place sort of like the vestibule to the church,

737
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:19.679
<v Speaker 2>perhaps the narthex to the church. We want to have

738
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.679
<v Speaker 2>a footprint online, we want to have good material online,

739
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:24.719
<v Speaker 2>but We certainly don't want to give the impression that

740
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:28.239
<v Speaker 2>one can worship online, that one can have that sense

741
00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:30.760
<v Speaker 2>of what happens on Sunday morning and in the embodied

742
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:33.239
<v Speaker 2>community of the church. You can't replicate that online, and

743
00:38:33.239 --> 00:38:35.880
<v Speaker 2>we shouldn't give the impression that we can. Right. So,

744
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:37.760
<v Speaker 2>for example, I know this is a bit of a rabbitrail,

745
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:40.880
<v Speaker 2>but we don't live stream our worship services. We record

746
00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:45.199
<v Speaker 2>the sermon, the service of the word, portion of the service,

747
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:47.599
<v Speaker 2>but we do not record the Eucharist. We don't want

748
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:49.920
<v Speaker 2>to give the impression that one could attempt even to

749
00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:54.400
<v Speaker 2>commune from home. We want them to come to partake

750
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:57.320
<v Speaker 2>of these things with us and become part of our community.

751
00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:59.480
<v Speaker 2>And with each video we post, we also have like

752
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:02.039
<v Speaker 2>a one minute explanation of that ahead of time. Hey,

753
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:04.199
<v Speaker 2>I hope this is a good thing for you to receive,

754
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:06.639
<v Speaker 2>but remember this isn't the real deal. This is not

755
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:09.719
<v Speaker 2>the embodied community where you're really hearing the living word

756
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:12.000
<v Speaker 2>of Jesus and receiving his living body that needs to

757
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.880
<v Speaker 2>take place in community in the flesh.

758
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:18.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I mean church is the embodied alternative.

759
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:19.039
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

760
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.920
<v Speaker 1>There's so many circumstances where we can sit here and

761
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:27.559
<v Speaker 1>lament the darkness that that's approaching as opposed to building

762
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:31.559
<v Speaker 1>a lighthouse. And Yeah, on a podcast that we did

763
00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:35.559
<v Speaker 1>years ago, I remember somebody we kind of teed it

764
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:39.679
<v Speaker 1>up for this, Hey, aren't things terrible? And the guests

765
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.920
<v Speaker 1>basically said, yes, things are terrible, but we're made for

766
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.440
<v Speaker 1>this moment. I mean, there's no better opportunity for us

767
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:49.760
<v Speaker 1>as Christians as the world goes in this direction. We

768
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.280
<v Speaker 1>have to be ready to receive people who are going

769
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.400
<v Speaker 1>to be hurt by those the ramifications of that. And

770
00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:59.840
<v Speaker 1>in just the same way, the church is the embodied

771
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:03.920
<v Speaker 1>all alternative to a digitized world, and we have to

772
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.159
<v Speaker 1>be intentional about how we approach that. As you said,

773
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you felt like you were going to ruffle

774
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:12.000
<v Speaker 1>feathers when you said, we don't do church online here,

775
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:16.119
<v Speaker 1>and there are some circumstances where somebody might be unable

776
00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:21.000
<v Speaker 1>to come, but those are rare, right, And you can't mean,

777
00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:25.840
<v Speaker 1>you can't allow that option to become the main thing

778
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:31.480
<v Speaker 1>because the church is embodied. And I wondered, I wanted

779
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:35.679
<v Speaker 1>to ask you, how do you think treating church's education

780
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.079
<v Speaker 1>has left us vulnerable to this ideology?

781
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:40.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that whole brain's on a stick thing. Right. It

782
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.719
<v Speaker 2>comes back to that, if church is just about putting

783
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:46.760
<v Speaker 2>information in your head, essentially a data download, well you

784
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:49.760
<v Speaker 2>can you can sort of do that online and probably

785
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:53.199
<v Speaker 2>with better preachers and educators on YouTube. But if Christianity

786
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.920
<v Speaker 2>is about much more than information, right, But if it's

787
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:59.480
<v Speaker 2>about the formation of a person and a living encounter

788
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:03.159
<v Speaker 2>with Risen Christ in word and sacrament, well you cannot

789
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:07.159
<v Speaker 2>replicate that online, right, So I think, yeah, part of

790
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:10.440
<v Speaker 2>the problem is we've really had such a shallow view

791
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:14.000
<v Speaker 2>of what Christian worship is and also what Christianity is,

792
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:16.440
<v Speaker 2>and it really goes two directions. The one direction is

793
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:18.960
<v Speaker 2>brain on a stick, right, that Christianity is just sort

794
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:22.519
<v Speaker 2>of an intellectual exercise, and this sermon is basically a lecture,

795
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:24.519
<v Speaker 2>and that's what you get at church. You get new

796
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.880
<v Speaker 2>information that then you like deploy in your life to

797
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:32.960
<v Speaker 2>be more productive and more efficient. That's one trajectory that's wrong, right,

798
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.159
<v Speaker 2>or not complete, I should say. Then there's also a

799
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:38.480
<v Speaker 2>trajectory where you're like a heart on a stick, right,

800
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:41.760
<v Speaker 2>You're just a bundle of emotions, and what Christianity is

801
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:45.639
<v Speaker 2>is like an emotional high. It's experiential worship. You have

802
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:49.440
<v Speaker 2>these certain feelings about God, and that's incomplete too, right,

803
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:51.599
<v Speaker 2>So what we need is the full thing. We need

804
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.599
<v Speaker 2>the embodied worship, which, yes, there's information involved, but it's

805
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:57.840
<v Speaker 2>much more than information. It's formation. And there are emotions involved,

806
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:00.440
<v Speaker 2>but there's more than emotions. It's emotions based on truth

807
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:03.559
<v Speaker 2>and goodness and beauty, and that you know, I would

808
00:42:03.639 --> 00:42:06.440
<v Speaker 2>argue this would be a different argument, but that that

809
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:10.239
<v Speaker 2>historically the church has done in its worship service, which

810
00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:16.840
<v Speaker 2>has historically been a pretty liturgical affair with embodied practices, kneeling, bowing,

811
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:20.280
<v Speaker 2>crossing yourself, right, you're using your body and worship, eating right,

812
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:23.960
<v Speaker 2>the Lord's Supper, talking about an embodied thing, hearing with

813
00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:27.599
<v Speaker 2>your ears, right, all of your senses are enveloped in

814
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:31.320
<v Speaker 2>in the divine service in the Sunday worship service.

815
00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:31.360
<v Speaker 1>And.

816
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:35.679
<v Speaker 2>Talk about a multimedia experience from God. You don't need

817
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:38.880
<v Speaker 2>PowerPoint projectors, you don't need screens. He's already designed this

818
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:41.159
<v Speaker 2>thing to hit your senses with all the things that

819
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:44.320
<v Speaker 2>occur in a historic Christian worship worship service.

820
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I mean you talk about the dangers of

821
00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:51.880
<v Speaker 1>missionary dating, Well, that's really what the secret sensitive movement

822
00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:55.960
<v Speaker 1>is and you're you're trying to adapt the practices of

823
00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:59.679
<v Speaker 1>the world to make your church service feel more in

824
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.760
<v Speaker 1>to really reach people where they're at. And as I said,

825
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:08.360
<v Speaker 1>with missionary dating, the missionary is usually the one.

826
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:09.400
<v Speaker 2>That falls right.

827
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:15.239
<v Speaker 1>They lose what made them then. And I remember I

828
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:19.320
<v Speaker 1>went to a church here in Charlotte and you'd walk

829
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:22.719
<v Speaker 1>in and there's just a really hip art gallery and

830
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:24.840
<v Speaker 1>it's very well intentioned. I want to be careful when

831
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying this. I'm not saying this as to denigrate

832
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.880
<v Speaker 1>them or anything, because everybody, I mean they're well intentioned,

833
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:35.519
<v Speaker 1>of course, and clearly doing good work. In the example

834
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:37.519
<v Speaker 1>that I'm giving, where you walk in this art gallery

835
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:40.880
<v Speaker 1>and it's just these beautiful pictures of work that they're

836
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:44.559
<v Speaker 1>doing in the mission field, and then tugs on your

837
00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:47.199
<v Speaker 1>heart strings and you donate there, and then you pour

838
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:50.159
<v Speaker 1>your coffee and you go in and you sit and

839
00:43:50.199 --> 00:43:53.920
<v Speaker 1>it feels like you're in a hip coffee shop. Then

840
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:56.519
<v Speaker 1>you got a couple of songs, and I remember one

841
00:43:56.559 --> 00:44:00.639
<v Speaker 1>of them was a pop song that they were baptizing

842
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:04.760
<v Speaker 1>for use in worship. I mean it's it was relevant.

843
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:08.079
<v Speaker 1>I mean thematically, you could see, okay, that fits, But

844
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:10.599
<v Speaker 1>it was also hey, you like this song, We're gonna

845
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:13.280
<v Speaker 1>play this here. And then the pastor came out with

846
00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:17.239
<v Speaker 1>the wire mic and I remember sitting there thinking, this

847
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:20.159
<v Speaker 1>is just a Ted talk. That's right, I mean, this

848
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:25.239
<v Speaker 1>is And I eventually left church and then started to

849
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:28.639
<v Speaker 1>go more and more sacramental liturgical in my leanings. And

850
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:31.119
<v Speaker 1>that's when I started to see the purpose in church

851
00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:33.920
<v Speaker 1>a little bit more, because otherwise, like you said, I

852
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:36.519
<v Speaker 1>can get a better Ted talk online. If all this

853
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:40.800
<v Speaker 1>is about hacking my personhood and becoming efficient and better,

854
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:43.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, I can do that somewhere else. I don't

855
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:44.960
<v Speaker 1>need to go to the church for that. They're going

856
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.320
<v Speaker 1>to do a worse job than the world at being

857
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:47.800
<v Speaker 1>the world.

858
00:44:48.239 --> 00:44:52.679
<v Speaker 2>It's like a party without the beer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

859
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:54.800
<v Speaker 2>And this again relates to I think some of the

860
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:57.440
<v Speaker 2>insights of the philosophers of technology that for a long

861
00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:01.880
<v Speaker 2>time have been saying the medium is the message influences content.

862
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:05.000
<v Speaker 2>As Christians, we usually think of content. It's either got

863
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:06.679
<v Speaker 2>to be good content or bad content. We don't think

864
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.840
<v Speaker 2>about how the form influences what's being communicated and actually

865
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:12.480
<v Speaker 2>might be more influential in what we take away from things,

866
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.800
<v Speaker 2>and that relates to worship. Form communicates something right. Everything

867
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:19.679
<v Speaker 2>we do in worship communicates a theological truth or a

868
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:22.639
<v Speaker 2>theological falsehood, and we want to make sure that the

869
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:24.679
<v Speaker 2>medium and the message line up right, the form and

870
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:27.599
<v Speaker 2>the content align and are saying the same thing about

871
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:29.440
<v Speaker 2>who we are, about who God is, and how God

872
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:30.199
<v Speaker 2>comes to man.

873
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:34.920
<v Speaker 1>Respectfully. Do you think a memorial view of the sacraments

874
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:38.239
<v Speaker 1>has unintentionally made light of our embodiment.

875
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:46.039
<v Speaker 2>I do think that a lot of Evangelicalism and Protestantism

876
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:49.599
<v Speaker 2>at large ends up in a pretty gnostic place, a

877
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:54.119
<v Speaker 2>pretty disembodied place. I grew up Baptist and then became Reformed,

878
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:57.280
<v Speaker 2>and now I'm in a more sacramental and liturgical tradition,

879
00:45:57.800 --> 00:46:00.800
<v Speaker 2>and so I have much respect for those different traditions

880
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:03.239
<v Speaker 2>and think that we can learn a lot from each other.

881
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:07.840
<v Speaker 2>But I do think there's a tendency in sort of

882
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:10.960
<v Speaker 2>low church traditions to end up denigrating the body. And

883
00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:13.559
<v Speaker 2>there's been a lot of research on this. Philip Lee

884
00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:16.480
<v Speaker 2>has a great book called Against the Protestant Gnostics from

885
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:19.079
<v Speaker 2>like the nineties. I think Michael Horton wrote one called

886
00:46:19.440 --> 00:46:22.559
<v Speaker 2>in the Face of God talking about the gnostic tendencies

887
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.760
<v Speaker 2>within evangelicalism. So I do think there's something there. I

888
00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:29.519
<v Speaker 2>don't want to overplay that hand and you know, be uncharitable,

889
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:35.920
<v Speaker 2>but I do think that we should be willing to

890
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Speaker 2>consider how those a memorialist view of the sacrament or

891
00:46:39.559 --> 00:46:43.320
<v Speaker 2>some of the other teachings of evangelicalism can can nudge

892
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:47.599
<v Speaker 2>us towards disembodiment and really a false view of the body. Yeah.

893
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:50.039
<v Speaker 1>And I kept thinking about how you know, we're made

894
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:55.280
<v Speaker 1>for to be deified, deification union with God. Yeah, And

895
00:46:55.400 --> 00:47:01.719
<v Speaker 1>when we make ourselves nothing more than data processors, we

896
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:06.800
<v Speaker 1>become datified and that's end goal. Can you name that shift?

897
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean the importance of that where we become just

898
00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:15.159
<v Speaker 1>pure exchange of information as opposed to union with God.

899
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:17.360
<v Speaker 1>Because it's something that I talk about a lot with

900
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:22.239
<v Speaker 1>friends where I talk about my own church life. Orthodoxy

901
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:29.480
<v Speaker 1>smallow only exists for orthopraxy. It's only to guide right worship.

902
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:34.280
<v Speaker 1>It's not an end to itself. And I think that

903
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:40.960
<v Speaker 1>we've lost our humanity for the sake of greater data processing,

904
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.599
<v Speaker 1>because that's what we've become. It's all just how much

905
00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:48.360
<v Speaker 1>information can I accumulate, and you compared it almost to

906
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:54.159
<v Speaker 1>like microplastics or pfas, and how we aren't made to

907
00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:58.360
<v Speaker 1>process this amount of information and we're all experiencing almost

908
00:47:58.400 --> 00:47:59.639
<v Speaker 1>like toxic shock.

909
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:02.519
<v Speaker 2>The speed at which we can access information. The amount

910
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.760
<v Speaker 2>of information we're accessing is just inhuman in its scale,

911
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:07.199
<v Speaker 2>and we don't know what to do with it all.

912
00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:10.039
<v Speaker 2>And the comparison was then made to the way that

913
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:13.840
<v Speaker 2>plastics are sort of in the environment everywhere, right and

914
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:17.119
<v Speaker 2>are part of our bodies now in ways that probably

915
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:19.239
<v Speaker 2>will end up being pretty toxic to us. That's sort

916
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:22.320
<v Speaker 2>of our information environment that we live in. It sort

917
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:26.039
<v Speaker 2>of permeates everything, and then that impacts how we think

918
00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:30.599
<v Speaker 2>about everything. We want to quantify everything, even ourselves. Everything

919
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:33.400
<v Speaker 2>is measurable, and think about the technologies that allowed us.

920
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:36.559
<v Speaker 2>We have apple watches that can keep our heart rate

921
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:38.639
<v Speaker 2>and steps and all of those things. There's actually a

922
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:43.079
<v Speaker 2>movement called the quantified self movement, which desires to quantify

923
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:46.719
<v Speaker 2>every aspect of human life right to basically become more

924
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:50.679
<v Speaker 2>productive and efficient. And there may be some place for

925
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:54.280
<v Speaker 2>thinking about quantifying some aspects or measuring some aspects of

926
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:57.119
<v Speaker 2>our humanity, but when that becomes the default setting. We

927
00:48:57.239 --> 00:49:02.119
<v Speaker 2>really are short circuiting what it means to be human

928
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:05.360
<v Speaker 2>to use an electrical analogy. And if we think about

929
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:08.800
<v Speaker 2>the way that God comes to man, it's very inefficient.

930
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:12.280
<v Speaker 2>God took on human flesh in one place at one time,

931
00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:16.039
<v Speaker 2>in Jesus Christ, and to spread his message, she had

932
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:18.960
<v Speaker 2>to walk around and talk to people. He you know,

933
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:23.159
<v Speaker 2>used spit and mud and touch and words and all

934
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:27.239
<v Speaker 2>of those things to heal. He couldn't simulcast his sermons, right,

935
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:30.079
<v Speaker 2>He couldn't livestream the resurrection, He couldn't use any of

936
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:33.039
<v Speaker 2>the modern communication technologies we have. And that wasn't an

937
00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:35.960
<v Speaker 2>accident that God came at that moment. The scriptures talk

938
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.079
<v Speaker 2>about this as the Chiros moment, the moment, the perfect

939
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:42.760
<v Speaker 2>moment for him to come was a time before he

940
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:47.360
<v Speaker 2>could be videotaped, a time before he could post on YouTube.

941
00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:48.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you could just go on and on with

942
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:51.719
<v Speaker 2>the things that we would think would be efficient or

943
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:57.360
<v Speaker 2>effective in getting the message out. And instead it's this embodied, slow,

944
00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:01.880
<v Speaker 2>incarnational way of spreading his man message, and that is intentional.

945
00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:04.519
<v Speaker 2>That's the pattern in the paradigm. The incarnation is the

946
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:07.360
<v Speaker 2>pattern in paradigm for for everything, And as you said,

947
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:10.679
<v Speaker 2>that that is our ultimate destiny. God became man so

948
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:15.719
<v Speaker 2>that man may become God in properly understood and that

949
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:18.159
<v Speaker 2>that is where we're headed. We're not headed to some

950
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:22.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, mechanized reality or some reality separate from our bodies,

951
00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:27.679
<v Speaker 2>or some you know data world that that somebody like

952
00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:30.239
<v Speaker 2>you've all Noah Harari wants or something like that. We

953
00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:34.880
<v Speaker 2>are destined for an embodied existence in union with God

954
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:38.039
<v Speaker 2>and one another, in a new heavens and new Earth. Yeah,

955
00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:40.400
<v Speaker 2>very embodied, real destiny.

956
00:50:41.159 --> 00:50:44.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but there's no butt. I don't want I don't

957
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:46.800
<v Speaker 1>want to put a butt on that. As I said earlier,

958
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:51.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm constantly trying to understand what reality is right now

959
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:55.840
<v Speaker 1>because we are experiencing, I think, an extreme state of disorientation.

960
00:50:56.039 --> 00:50:59.000
<v Speaker 1>And I wonder am I being alarmist or am I

961
00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:03.920
<v Speaker 1>being a realist? Right? When you think about technologies like neuralink,

962
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:08.199
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, there can be really good implementation of that

963
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:10.800
<v Speaker 1>technology where you get somebody who's locked in and all

964
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:14.000
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden they're engaging the world. Right, that's the

965
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:19.599
<v Speaker 1>best case scenario. But there's a lot of slippery slopes there,

966
00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:22.880
<v Speaker 1>and I just can't help but I mean this is

967
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:25.599
<v Speaker 1>where you think about the Amish and you say, hey,

968
00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:27.840
<v Speaker 1>if you don't do this, we're going to become Amish

969
00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:31.840
<v Speaker 1>intentionally or otherwise. And yet it just can't help but

970
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:36.039
<v Speaker 1>to ponder constantly, in this moment that we're living through,

971
00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:40.400
<v Speaker 1>where do we draw the line? Right? I mean, you

972
00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:42.920
<v Speaker 1>talk about are we all cyborgs now? And as we

973
00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:45.599
<v Speaker 1>all exist with this smartphone in our hand, and it's

974
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:47.320
<v Speaker 1>the first thing we grab and we wake up, and

975
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:49.159
<v Speaker 1>the first thing or the last thing we look at

976
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:51.639
<v Speaker 1>before we go to bed, I mean, what's the difference

977
00:51:51.639 --> 00:51:55.519
<v Speaker 1>between that and it being implanted? And yet there is

978
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:59.119
<v Speaker 1>a very real thing. And I know maybe I'm just

979
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:01.920
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that I'm living in this science fiction

980
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:04.440
<v Speaker 1>world where I think that's going to be a real thing.

981
00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:06.320
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's why you started the book the

982
00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:09.159
<v Speaker 1>way that you did with the Wendell Berry quote. It's

983
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:11.519
<v Speaker 1>a decision that we're going to have to make. Do

984
00:52:11.559 --> 00:52:14.239
<v Speaker 1>you see that? Do you feel that as strongly as

985
00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:14.480
<v Speaker 1>I do?

986
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh? For sure? Yeah. And I will just say with

987
00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:20.239
<v Speaker 2>the decisions you said, well, we pick up the smartphone

988
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:21.559
<v Speaker 2>first at the beginning of the day, and last thing

989
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:23.360
<v Speaker 2>we put we don't have to do that. We can

990
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:25.599
<v Speaker 2>make decisions not to do that, and I think we

991
00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:29.159
<v Speaker 2>need to. You know, lots of books have proposed like

992
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:32.320
<v Speaker 2>practical steps each day. Justin Whitmill Early has a great

993
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:34.239
<v Speaker 2>book called The Common Rule, and one of his rules

994
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:38.880
<v Speaker 2>is scripture before phone each day, recripture before screen, prayer

995
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:42.119
<v Speaker 2>before phone. We shouldn't pick it up first each day,

996
00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:43.519
<v Speaker 2>and we shouldn't have it in a room at night.

997
00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:46.360
<v Speaker 2>So we can make decisions to resist these things. So

998
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:48.400
<v Speaker 2>we could talk about some rs here. One We need

999
00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:50.679
<v Speaker 2>to recognize, we need to recognize what the problems are

1000
00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:54.800
<v Speaker 2>and develop a intentional philosophy of technology. Then we can resist.

1001
00:52:54.840 --> 00:52:56.840
<v Speaker 2>We can intentionally make decisions that are hard. We can

1002
00:52:56.840 --> 00:53:00.199
<v Speaker 2>be weird and known it, and Christians always have, and

1003
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:03.159
<v Speaker 2>there's something attractive about being weird. Actually, my high school

1004
00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:06.400
<v Speaker 2>students loved it that I was weird. It actually gave

1005
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:08.079
<v Speaker 2>me a sense of like credibility with them that I

1006
00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:10.079
<v Speaker 2>wasn't trying to be cool because I'm not cool. So

1007
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:13.039
<v Speaker 2>just own it, right, own the weirdness. There's a sense

1008
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:18.599
<v Speaker 2>in which that actually becomes attractive and almost anticipates the

1009
00:53:18.639 --> 00:53:23.320
<v Speaker 2>pendulum swing in some ways. That's happening on these technological questions.

1010
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:26.760
<v Speaker 2>I collected phones long before in my classroom, long before

1011
00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:29.199
<v Speaker 2>the anxious generation was suggesting this. Right, and now it's

1012
00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:31.960
<v Speaker 2>like in twenty states. But by being weird, I was

1013
00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:34.159
<v Speaker 2>already sort of thinking about some of these things. So, yeah,

1014
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:36.119
<v Speaker 2>be weird to own it. We need to resist. Then

1015
00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:39.239
<v Speaker 2>we also need to replace and reclaim and recover what's good,

1016
00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:42.119
<v Speaker 2>true and beautiful. So there's a no aspect of this. Yes,

1017
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:43.800
<v Speaker 2>we do need to say no to some things, but

1018
00:53:43.880 --> 00:53:46.159
<v Speaker 2>even more important, it's because there's better things we can

1019
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:48.920
<v Speaker 2>say yes to. Yes, And that's you know, like you

1020
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:51.800
<v Speaker 2>were saying, the Christian response to this moment, We're just

1021
00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:54.039
<v Speaker 2>made for this moment in so many ways. Right, It's

1022
00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:56.519
<v Speaker 2>not about saying no, it's about we have a better yes.

1023
00:53:56.679 --> 00:53:58.800
<v Speaker 2>And by saying no to certain things, you give room

1024
00:53:58.840 --> 00:53:59.119
<v Speaker 2>for that.

1025
00:53:59.239 --> 00:53:59.480
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

1026
00:53:59.599 --> 00:54:03.280
<v Speaker 2>You can reclaim those practices in your home of time together,

1027
00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:07.000
<v Speaker 2>of true leisure, of reading and playing games and music together.

1028
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:10.400
<v Speaker 2>As communities, you can host dances and picnics and hikes.

1029
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:13.480
<v Speaker 2>As churches, you can embrace the tables of the Lord.

1030
00:54:13.559 --> 00:54:16.199
<v Speaker 2>First off, the eucharistic table, and from that table, then

1031
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:20.519
<v Speaker 2>community and fellowship flows over into the parish table, and

1032
00:54:20.559 --> 00:54:22.480
<v Speaker 2>then from the parish table it flows over into our

1033
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:25.519
<v Speaker 2>familial tables in our homes. There's just so much Christianity

1034
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:28.519
<v Speaker 2>has to offer this moment, and that's the vision that

1035
00:54:28.519 --> 00:54:31.119
<v Speaker 2>we need to cast. Not that we're negative nancies, but

1036
00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:34.559
<v Speaker 2>we have something better. I think that's really where we

1037
00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:36.480
<v Speaker 2>need to end up on these things.

1038
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:39.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, next to your better, yes, that you talk about,

1039
00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:44.119
<v Speaker 1>I wrote the word hope, and I mean, there are

1040
00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:48.159
<v Speaker 1>moments when you really think about the extension of how

1041
00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:51.000
<v Speaker 1>everything could go technologically over the next couple of years,

1042
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:54.800
<v Speaker 1>you can start to feel hopeless and yet your better

1043
00:54:54.840 --> 00:54:56.840
<v Speaker 1>And that's something that I really appreciate that you guys

1044
00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:00.039
<v Speaker 1>laid out in the book is the Better Yes. I

1045
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:02.719
<v Speaker 1>really want to drill down on this hopelessness for a second,

1046
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:06.159
<v Speaker 1>because these are real decisions that I think we're going

1047
00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:07.800
<v Speaker 1>to have to make. And it's kind of like the

1048
00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:12.760
<v Speaker 1>proverbial lobster in a pop We're all so inundated with

1049
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:15.360
<v Speaker 1>this technology and it's such a large part of our

1050
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:19.119
<v Speaker 1>lives and our work lives, and it's coming into our churches.

1051
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:23.400
<v Speaker 1>How do we do this? I mean, for example, if

1052
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:27.639
<v Speaker 1>they start wiring models into human beings into our actual bodies.

1053
00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:29.559
<v Speaker 1>So like the neuralink type of thing. I mean this

1054
00:55:29.679 --> 00:55:32.440
<v Speaker 1>is there's almost going to be the temptation to become

1055
00:55:32.519 --> 00:55:36.239
<v Speaker 1>two different species in a sense. And how do we

1056
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:39.360
<v Speaker 1>resist that? Where do we draw the line? Because I

1057
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:43.800
<v Speaker 1>gave the example of neuralink. If somebody's locked in, that's

1058
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:48.519
<v Speaker 1>a very attractive technology. If you can create an artificial organ.

1059
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:54.360
<v Speaker 1>All right, my son needed an artificial organ. I'm getting

1060
00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:56.599
<v Speaker 1>it right, I mean, I love my son, I want

1061
00:55:56.920 --> 00:55:59.920
<v Speaker 1>but where do we draw the line? How many organs?

1062
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Assuming that it's possible, I'm sure. Do you get where

1063
00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:04.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm going with this?

1064
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Of course? Yeah. The realm of bioethics in relation to

1065
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:11.440
<v Speaker 2>technological questions is very challenging. And this is where I

1066
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:15.400
<v Speaker 2>think we need to really combine the insights of our theologians,

1067
00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:18.639
<v Speaker 2>our ethicists, our technologists, engineers, and so forth. Is we

1068
00:56:18.679 --> 00:56:20.679
<v Speaker 2>need all hands on deck on these questions. But just

1069
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:23.440
<v Speaker 2>a couple guiding principles, if I may. One, We need

1070
00:56:23.480 --> 00:56:26.360
<v Speaker 2>to start from a clear understanding of Christian anthropology. What

1071
00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:29.239
<v Speaker 2>is a human being? An embodied soul? The unity of

1072
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:32.519
<v Speaker 2>body and soul is a human person and that grounding

1073
00:56:32.599 --> 00:56:34.840
<v Speaker 2>needs to be right there in the forefront when we're

1074
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:37.719
<v Speaker 2>thinking about all these questions. Second off, you know, we

1075
00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:41.599
<v Speaker 2>want to think about technologies in relation to restoration of

1076
00:56:41.679 --> 00:56:46.920
<v Speaker 2>human capacities, right. So there's definitely restorative uses of technology,

1077
00:56:47.320 --> 00:56:50.880
<v Speaker 2>knowlogy and medicine that I think we can embrace as Christians. Right,

1078
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:54.119
<v Speaker 2>because of the Fall, things are broken, right, and medicine

1079
00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:56.400
<v Speaker 2>plays a role in restoring some of those things that

1080
00:56:56.440 --> 00:56:59.400
<v Speaker 2>are broken because of the Fall, because of disease and

1081
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:04.400
<v Speaker 2>sickness forth. But when we start to cross over into enhancement, right,

1082
00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:07.679
<v Speaker 2>that's I think where we need to be very careful.

1083
00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:10.679
<v Speaker 2>We will have to draw some hard lines, right, just

1084
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:12.800
<v Speaker 2>like we do on abortion and other matters, right, which

1085
00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:14.920
<v Speaker 2>are related to technological questions.

1086
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:15.159
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1087
00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:18.280
<v Speaker 2>This is another thing people don't think about medicine is technology.

1088
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:20.880
<v Speaker 2>The same types of thinking that we have about smartphones,

1089
00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:23.599
<v Speaker 2>we should be having about medical procedures. And that's going

1090
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:27.119
<v Speaker 2>to get more complex to navigate, and that's going to

1091
00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:31.000
<v Speaker 2>require communal discernment. That's going to require pastoral care. And

1092
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:34.199
<v Speaker 2>would I would not on a podcast talking to strangers

1093
00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:37.119
<v Speaker 2>try to offer you know, specific advice because that's there's

1094
00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:39.599
<v Speaker 2>going to be so much individuality on these types of things.

1095
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:41.360
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, those would be guiding principles what is a

1096
00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:44.119
<v Speaker 2>human being? And then thinking about this in relation to

1097
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:48.639
<v Speaker 2>restorative technologies that can probably have a place, but not

1098
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:52.840
<v Speaker 2>in the realm of enhancement or body modification or things

1099
00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:56.400
<v Speaker 2>like that which which we're already seeing in realms that

1100
00:57:56.639 --> 00:57:59.679
<v Speaker 2>Christians say no to, right like transgenderism is body modification.

1101
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:03.719
<v Speaker 2>It's a technological attempt to change the body to align

1102
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.159
<v Speaker 2>to who I think I am inside, to talk about narcissism,

1103
00:58:06.679 --> 00:58:09.639
<v Speaker 2>and we say no to that, We say no to transhumanism,

1104
00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:12.960
<v Speaker 2>we say no to attempts to sort of transcend our

1105
00:58:13.000 --> 00:58:16.400
<v Speaker 2>bodies digitally or technologically. And in a certain sense, you

1106
00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:19.800
<v Speaker 2>could even say that transgenderism is a subset of transhumanism.

1107
00:58:19.880 --> 00:58:22.880
<v Speaker 2>So we already in certain areas, are willing to place

1108
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:26.000
<v Speaker 2>some boundaries around things will continue. We will need to

1109
00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:29.519
<v Speaker 2>continue to do that as these medical dilemmas intensify.

1110
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:33.199
<v Speaker 1>Do you see where I'm going with this?

1111
00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:33.519
<v Speaker 2>Though?

1112
00:58:33.559 --> 00:58:36.679
<v Speaker 1>That, especially in connection to the Amish, and that's the

1113
00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:41.800
<v Speaker 1>reason that I led the whole conversation with that joke

1114
00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:44.599
<v Speaker 1>or parable, depending on how you want to view it,

1115
00:58:45.719 --> 00:58:50.159
<v Speaker 1>because there are going to potentially be real stakes. There

1116
00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:54.320
<v Speaker 1>is going to be a situation where, I mean, we

1117
00:58:54.320 --> 00:58:56.840
<v Speaker 1>look at the Amish and they live such different lives

1118
00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:01.639
<v Speaker 1>than we do, where we may, hey, if we're going

1119
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:05.119
<v Speaker 1>to truly make a commitment to the reality as we

1120
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:09.760
<v Speaker 1>understand it, to an embodied reality, that we're going to

1121
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:15.280
<v Speaker 1>be cost if you're left behind. But there will be cost,

1122
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:17.960
<v Speaker 1>there will be sacrifices. I mean, do you do am

1123
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:20.440
<v Speaker 1>I being alarmist or do you see that on the forefront?

1124
00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:24.440
<v Speaker 2>I think it's possible. I do. I don't want to

1125
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:28.039
<v Speaker 2>get apocalyptic or too pessimistic. I try to be a

1126
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:30.679
<v Speaker 2>tech realist, not a tech optimist or a tech pessimist.

1127
00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:34.039
<v Speaker 2>But I do think that we need to be talking

1128
00:59:34.119 --> 00:59:37.639
<v Speaker 2>honestly with people about the hard choices that we need

1129
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:39.719
<v Speaker 2>to be making for the good of ourselves and the

1130
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:41.800
<v Speaker 2>good of our children and the good of our communities.

1131
00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:44.119
<v Speaker 2>What that exactly looks like, I'm not going to attempt

1132
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:47.679
<v Speaker 2>to predict, because things change so quickly. I mean, even

1133
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:49.840
<v Speaker 2>in the realm of LMS, there's been a huge cooling

1134
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:52.079
<v Speaker 2>on that the last few months. Investment is starting to

1135
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:55.119
<v Speaker 2>dry up. Some people are carling in a bubble. GBT

1136
00:59:55.239 --> 00:59:58.039
<v Speaker 2>was five was a huge disappointment as far as capabilities.

1137
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:01.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, we can't predict exactly what the future is

1138
01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:04.440
<v Speaker 2>going to look like, but yes, difficult decisions need to

1139
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:07.880
<v Speaker 2>be made now and we'll continue to need to be made.

1140
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:11.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you talk about for your children, and I think

1141
01:00:11.880 --> 01:00:15.360
<v Speaker 1>that so many people view the doing what's right for

1142
01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:18.800
<v Speaker 1>your children as an economic investment to set them up

1143
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:22.840
<v Speaker 1>for economic success. And I do think that we are

1144
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:28.559
<v Speaker 1>going to have to make a real intentional distinction between

1145
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:34.679
<v Speaker 1>the success of their soul and and how that might

1146
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:38.239
<v Speaker 1>look different if there is you know, and my let's

1147
01:00:38.360 --> 01:00:42.599
<v Speaker 1>call it apocalyptic worldview, and it's not a worldview, it's

1148
01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:46.400
<v Speaker 1>more just a pondering. I think, could things go this direction?

1149
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:50.360
<v Speaker 1>And if they do, what do we do? And as

1150
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.920
<v Speaker 1>we talked about before, I mean, what do we do?

1151
01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:55.159
<v Speaker 1>Every time I go into church and I and I

1152
01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:58.320
<v Speaker 1>touch the physical walls. I kind of joke, but I

1153
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:01.400
<v Speaker 1>mean it. This is like when we played tag as

1154
01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:04.320
<v Speaker 1>kids and you had a home base. And whenever I

1155
01:01:04.440 --> 01:01:08.000
<v Speaker 1>enter into the church and touch those walls, the physical

1156
01:01:08.079 --> 01:01:11.679
<v Speaker 1>walls of the temple, say you can't hurt me here.

1157
01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:15.800
<v Speaker 1>This is home base. And I think, to answer my

1158
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:17.880
<v Speaker 1>own question, in a sense, I mean, that's what we

1159
01:01:17.920 --> 01:01:20.440
<v Speaker 1>need to do, is that we need to retreat not

1160
01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:24.199
<v Speaker 1>from the world but into the temple, into the home base,

1161
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:32.639
<v Speaker 1>and just really commit ourselves to that reality of the incarnation.

1162
01:01:33.320 --> 01:01:36.920
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, that's right, and then that empowers us and

1163
01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:40.320
<v Speaker 2>enables us and sustains us to face whatever comes. So, yeah,

1164
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:43.159
<v Speaker 2>there's going to need to be more intentional communal decisions.

1165
01:01:43.199 --> 01:01:45.840
<v Speaker 2>There's going to need to be coming together of churches

1166
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:48.639
<v Speaker 2>and families to support each other on these things. It's

1167
01:01:48.679 --> 01:01:51.280
<v Speaker 2>really a collective action problem in some ways, because if

1168
01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:53.960
<v Speaker 2>just one person makes a change on these things, it's

1169
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:56.079
<v Speaker 2>it's very hard to see the benefits. But if a

1170
01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:58.159
<v Speaker 2>group of people come together, say in a church or

1171
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:01.280
<v Speaker 2>a community or a school, and agree to make certain

1172
01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:04.159
<v Speaker 2>decisions about technologies, then you start to really see the benefits.

1173
01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:06.440
<v Speaker 2>It's sort of like a synergy that occurs between the people.

1174
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:08.360
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I'm right there with you that the place

1175
01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:11.320
<v Speaker 2>to really resist this is in the church, and then

1176
01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:13.639
<v Speaker 2>that flows out into the home and then into sort

1177
01:02:13.679 --> 01:02:16.400
<v Speaker 2>of small little platoons as Edwin Burgh called them. This

1178
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:21.079
<v Speaker 2>is what the church knows how to do and has

1179
01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:23.159
<v Speaker 2>been doing for a long time. And I think in

1180
01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:27.400
<v Speaker 2>some ways. Honestly, that type of intentional raising of children

1181
01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:30.480
<v Speaker 2>or raising of the next generation in the human things

1182
01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:34.039
<v Speaker 2>and in the permanent things actually ends up being best

1183
01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:36.559
<v Speaker 2>preparation for service to the world as well. It actually

1184
01:02:36.599 --> 01:02:39.000
<v Speaker 2>might have some economic benefits in the long run. I know,

1185
01:02:39.079 --> 01:02:43.159
<v Speaker 2>we don't make decisions based on pragmatic calculations or utilitarianism,

1186
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:45.840
<v Speaker 2>but ironically, it turns out that what's going to be

1187
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:48.079
<v Speaker 2>most relevant in the workplace is people that actually know

1188
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:50.400
<v Speaker 2>how to think and know how to write and communicate

1189
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:54.079
<v Speaker 2>without outsourcing everything to AI. So I think in the

1190
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:56.480
<v Speaker 2>long run we're actually going to be doing everybody a

1191
01:02:56.599 --> 01:03:01.480
<v Speaker 2>service by resisting the sort of infiltration of the machine

1192
01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:02.039
<v Speaker 2>into everything.

1193
01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:05.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's hope and you talk about like the straight

1194
01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:07.559
<v Speaker 1>stick versus the crooked stick, and the straight stick actually

1195
01:03:07.599 --> 01:03:11.559
<v Speaker 1>helps you see where the imperfections lie. It's the same

1196
01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:15.239
<v Speaker 1>thing that I think has been happening with a lot

1197
01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:19.000
<v Speaker 1>of traditional churches, let's say call them high churches. Sacramento

1198
01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:23.199
<v Speaker 1>liturgical churches are experiencing an influx, and I think a

1199
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:29.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of that stems from when anything goes in the world,

1200
01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:32.400
<v Speaker 1>the last true rebellion, as they call it, is to

1201
01:03:32.519 --> 01:03:36.719
<v Speaker 1>limit yourself and to actually embrace some sort of asceticism

1202
01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:41.719
<v Speaker 1>to really free yourself from the passions. And I think

1203
01:03:42.760 --> 01:03:46.320
<v Speaker 1>I think it took the world going to an extreme

1204
01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:50.000
<v Speaker 1>for people to come back to the church to see

1205
01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:56.239
<v Speaker 1>that as the more attractive thing. And so you are

1206
01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:59.400
<v Speaker 1>providing hope in that sense, and that we just have

1207
01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:01.119
<v Speaker 1>to keep doing what we do. And like I said,

1208
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:04.079
<v Speaker 1>we're made for the moment. The church is the best

1209
01:04:04.119 --> 01:04:07.239
<v Speaker 1>alternative here. We just have to be ready when they come.

1210
01:04:08.039 --> 01:04:11.239
<v Speaker 1>You provide a lot of invitations to hope when you

1211
01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:13.800
<v Speaker 1>say you have the better Yes. One of them is

1212
01:04:13.840 --> 01:04:16.280
<v Speaker 1>the joy of thingness? What is the joy of thingness?

1213
01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:21.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? This is the fact that there's something really cool

1214
01:04:21.559 --> 01:04:24.559
<v Speaker 2>about physical things, and we're we're made to enjoy those

1215
01:04:24.599 --> 01:04:27.840
<v Speaker 2>physical things, whether it's natural things or whether it's even

1216
01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:31.800
<v Speaker 2>man made things, things that we do as sort of subcreators,

1217
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:35.000
<v Speaker 2>as Tolkien called us. We are creators by nature. We're

1218
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:37.239
<v Speaker 2>in the image of the divine creator. So to be

1219
01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:41.719
<v Speaker 2>able to enjoy a guitar and the thingness of a

1220
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:45.119
<v Speaker 2>guitar it's wooden body and its metal strings and the frets,

1221
01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:47.760
<v Speaker 2>and how all those things work together with you and

1222
01:04:47.800 --> 01:04:50.800
<v Speaker 2>your body to create music. That's the joy of thingness.

1223
01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:53.199
<v Speaker 2>Using a hand plane is the joy of thingness. Going

1224
01:04:53.239 --> 01:04:56.599
<v Speaker 2>out in nature and tuning yourself to the environment and

1225
01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:59.559
<v Speaker 2>watching birds is the joy of thingness. Taking in the sunshine.

1226
01:04:59.559 --> 01:05:01.559
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we could just go on and on. Anything

1227
01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:05.000
<v Speaker 2>that involves our bodily senses in real time and real

1228
01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:07.960
<v Speaker 2>space are ways that we can sort of reconnect to

1229
01:05:08.039 --> 01:05:10.039
<v Speaker 2>that joy of what it means to be human and

1230
01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:13.239
<v Speaker 2>the joy of enjoying objects and jests that are made

1231
01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:16.639
<v Speaker 2>by God and subcreated by us. You said to hear

1232
01:05:16.679 --> 01:05:19.480
<v Speaker 2>the birds, And this morning I went for a run.

1233
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:25.119
<v Speaker 2>And usually when I go for a run, I changed

1234
01:05:25.119 --> 01:05:28.079
<v Speaker 2>one thing. So before you want to talk about like

1235
01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:29.599
<v Speaker 2>quantification and the problem that.

1236
01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:33.519
<v Speaker 1>It pertains to. I used to not run. If I

1237
01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:38.159
<v Speaker 1>couldn't find a like my headphones and everything all of

1238
01:05:38.199 --> 01:05:41.920
<v Speaker 1>the kutuma, I wouldn't go for a run. Or I

1239
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:45.760
<v Speaker 1>remember one time I couldn't get my Strava or Nike

1240
01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Run Club or whatever app to work, and I didn't

1241
01:05:49.039 --> 01:05:51.320
<v Speaker 1>go for the run because in my mind, if I

1242
01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:54.599
<v Speaker 1>can't quantify it, it's not worth doing. If I can't

1243
01:05:54.679 --> 01:05:58.079
<v Speaker 1>track it, it's not worth doing. And I would get

1244
01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:01.039
<v Speaker 1>done with running. I'm a big runner, and oh man,

1245
01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:02.960
<v Speaker 1>I thought I did a way better run than that.

1246
01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:05.800
<v Speaker 1>It's the same thing with the sleep trackers. I thought,

1247
01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:09.440
<v Speaker 1>I slept all this as I didn't, and how much

1248
01:06:09.440 --> 01:06:12.239
<v Speaker 1>of a creep that can become. But even this morning,

1249
01:06:12.760 --> 01:06:15.840
<v Speaker 1>because I wanted to prepare for our conversation, I said,

1250
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:20.239
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to run without headphones. Love it. And a

1251
01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:23.400
<v Speaker 1>midway through the run, I could hear all of the

1252
01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:27.000
<v Speaker 1>birds and I was so much more in tune with

1253
01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:31.239
<v Speaker 1>the physical environment around me, and I almost got emotional.

1254
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:35.039
<v Speaker 1>I thought, am I missing this? This feels new? This

1255
01:06:35.159 --> 01:06:39.440
<v Speaker 1>probably isn't new. I'm just numb to it, or I'm

1256
01:06:39.519 --> 01:06:43.480
<v Speaker 1>not hearing it because I'm hearing some people like us talk.

1257
01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:47.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we need to retrain ourselves to

1258
01:06:48.280 --> 01:06:51.480
<v Speaker 2>become attuned to the natural world, and it's a training

1259
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.039
<v Speaker 2>you need to practice that develop the practice of it

1260
01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:54.519
<v Speaker 2>we all do.

1261
01:06:54.599 --> 01:06:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's great. I love that story. No, it was beautiful,

1262
01:06:57.440 --> 01:07:01.039
<v Speaker 1>So thank you. You talk about true leisure. How can

1263
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:03.519
<v Speaker 1>true leisure save us? I mean, it sounds like you

1264
01:07:03.559 --> 01:07:04.719
<v Speaker 1>just want people to be lazy.

1265
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:08.719
<v Speaker 2>Here, we'd have to do a little Lastodian into the

1266
01:07:08.760 --> 01:07:11.000
<v Speaker 2>history of the word leisure and This comes from skul

1267
01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:12.920
<v Speaker 2>A and Greek and Latin, which is where we get

1268
01:07:12.920 --> 01:07:15.239
<v Speaker 2>the word school, which is sort of funny. When people

1269
01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:16.880
<v Speaker 2>think of school, they don't think of leisure. They think

1270
01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:20.599
<v Speaker 2>of like work and quantification, grades, measurement, all that. But

1271
01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:23.800
<v Speaker 2>historically leisure was much more about what you did with

1272
01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:26.920
<v Speaker 2>your time to develop as a person, to meditate and

1273
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:30.320
<v Speaker 2>ponder and reflect on what was true, good and beautiful,

1274
01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:35.000
<v Speaker 2>and a free person had leisure time. The person who

1275
01:07:36.280 --> 01:07:42.679
<v Speaker 2>was liberated free could do such things with their leisure.

1276
01:07:42.760 --> 01:07:46.679
<v Speaker 2>Today we think of leisure as like entertainment, right, watching TV, Internet,

1277
01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:50.159
<v Speaker 2>amusement parks, things like that, leisure time activities. But that's

1278
01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:52.559
<v Speaker 2>such a shallow view of leisure. So yeah, the recovery

1279
01:07:52.559 --> 01:07:56.199
<v Speaker 2>of true leisure, the developments of human capacities, and the

1280
01:07:56.599 --> 01:07:59.840
<v Speaker 2>sort of enjoyment of reality as it is not for

1281
01:07:59.840 --> 01:08:02.760
<v Speaker 2>the sake of quantification or pragmatism or something like that.

1282
01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:07.239
<v Speaker 2>That actually is vital to recovering and reclaiming our culture.

1283
01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:10.960
<v Speaker 2>And as as Joseph Peeper says in Leisure the basis

1284
01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:14.519
<v Speaker 2>of culture, leisure actually is what made our culture what

1285
01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:20.119
<v Speaker 2>it is because we took seriously the permanent things and

1286
01:08:20.159 --> 01:08:24.840
<v Speaker 2>the importance of developing those human capacities that aren't utilitarian,

1287
01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:26.359
<v Speaker 2>that aren't economic.

1288
01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:30.079
<v Speaker 1>Hey, you talk about I think about this all the time,

1289
01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:35.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, entertaining ourselves to death, that we're almost because

1290
01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:41.000
<v Speaker 1>we have such consistent access to these distractions. I really

1291
01:08:41.039 --> 01:08:43.479
<v Speaker 1>do feel like we are one of the first few

1292
01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:49.000
<v Speaker 1>generations that it's not like just outright imperative that you

1293
01:08:49.119 --> 01:08:55.039
<v Speaker 1>ponder existential questions, Right, is there a God? Why am

1294
01:08:55.039 --> 01:08:59.279
<v Speaker 1>I here? I mean I think that there are actually

1295
01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:03.720
<v Speaker 1>people that have never thought those questions, They've never attuned

1296
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:08.600
<v Speaker 1>themselves to thinking like that. And yeah, and it's it.

1297
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:11.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because our devices can constantly distract us. Right, we

1298
01:09:11.640 --> 01:09:14.520
<v Speaker 2>never have to hear the skeletons in our closet or

1299
01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:16.520
<v Speaker 2>the voices inside our head because we can always be

1300
01:09:16.560 --> 01:09:19.199
<v Speaker 2>hearing other voices and have other music on and just

1301
01:09:19.479 --> 01:09:24.399
<v Speaker 2>constantly distract ourselves in all the while never confront those,

1302
01:09:24.760 --> 01:09:29.680
<v Speaker 2>as you said, existential existential questions that we need to. Yeah.

1303
01:09:29.800 --> 01:09:32.720
<v Speaker 1>I remember Clear's Day. It was probably six years old,

1304
01:09:33.399 --> 01:09:36.920
<v Speaker 1>sitting in the back of my parents' minivan, staring out

1305
01:09:36.920 --> 01:09:40.880
<v Speaker 1>the window and really just thinking, what is this? How

1306
01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:43.439
<v Speaker 1>am I here? What does all this mean? And I

1307
01:09:44.680 --> 01:09:48.520
<v Speaker 1>worry that there's a large portion of the population that

1308
01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:53.319
<v Speaker 1>hasn't pondered the questions that were just you had to before.

1309
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:56.680
<v Speaker 1>There are two words that I really, really really loved

1310
01:09:56.680 --> 01:09:58.359
<v Speaker 1>in your book, and I don't know that they would

1311
01:09:58.399 --> 01:10:02.479
<v Speaker 1>have stuck out to everybody, but it's that that thing

1312
01:10:02.640 --> 01:10:05.560
<v Speaker 1>where two people find something in common and oh wow,

1313
01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:10.800
<v Speaker 1>you talk about no agenda togetherness, no agenda, And those

1314
01:10:10.840 --> 01:10:13.560
<v Speaker 1>are two words that have been so near and dear

1315
01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:16.800
<v Speaker 1>to me for the past couple of years. As I've

1316
01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:22.800
<v Speaker 1>gotten more involved in my church community. They're constantly trying

1317
01:10:22.840 --> 01:10:26.600
<v Speaker 1>to put a label on everything. This is a bunch

1318
01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:28.720
<v Speaker 1>of men. Get this is men's group, you know, we

1319
01:10:28.720 --> 01:10:30.920
<v Speaker 1>we need These are a bunch of old people. They're

1320
01:10:30.960 --> 01:10:34.159
<v Speaker 1>the old they the young at Heart group and all

1321
01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:38.239
<v Speaker 1>of these different groups. And I keep thinking to myself, now,

1322
01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:43.159
<v Speaker 1>you know what we need. We need no agenda togetherness,

1323
01:10:43.479 --> 01:10:46.800
<v Speaker 1>just to be together without Well, what's the end goal?

1324
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:48.560
<v Speaker 1>What are we going to get out of this? What's

1325
01:10:48.680 --> 01:10:51.479
<v Speaker 1>what's there to just? I mean, is that something that

1326
01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:55.119
<v Speaker 1>you think about? Clearly it was in your book of course.

1327
01:10:55.199 --> 01:10:58.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. This again gets back to that efficiency and productivity

1328
01:10:58.239 --> 01:11:01.239
<v Speaker 2>mindset that we've We've just so absorbed. Right, we want

1329
01:11:01.279 --> 01:11:06.119
<v Speaker 2>to be able to turn everything into a quantifiable, measurable thing.

1330
01:11:06.199 --> 01:11:08.760
<v Speaker 2>We want to put it in these nice little categories

1331
01:11:08.760 --> 01:11:12.239
<v Speaker 2>that fit with metrics and things like that. But if

1332
01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:15.720
<v Speaker 2>we're not comfortable with just being, then the new Kingdom

1333
01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:19.079
<v Speaker 2>might be boring to us, right, I mean there's going

1334
01:11:19.119 --> 01:11:20.640
<v Speaker 2>to obviously there's going to be things to do, but

1335
01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:22.920
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to be like things to do for

1336
01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the sake of productivity or efficiency or quantification. It's going

1337
01:11:25.960 --> 01:11:28.760
<v Speaker 2>to be things to do that are of permanent value

1338
01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:31.279
<v Speaker 2>and whatnot. So, yeah, that's a great, a great thing

1339
01:11:31.319 --> 01:11:33.560
<v Speaker 2>to think about. Right, How are we in our lives

1340
01:11:35.079 --> 01:11:39.640
<v Speaker 2>finding ways to practice togetherness that doesn't have an agenda.

1341
01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:41.880
<v Speaker 2>It isn't about what we're going to get out of

1342
01:11:41.880 --> 01:11:46.199
<v Speaker 2>this little time here or in some productivity sense, but

1343
01:11:46.279 --> 01:11:49.039
<v Speaker 2>more for the cultivation of who we are and cultivation

1344
01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:52.039
<v Speaker 2>of relationships with each other, which is something that transcends

1345
01:11:52.119 --> 01:11:55.840
<v Speaker 2>quantification and many times is very inefficient. Think about walking

1346
01:11:56.399 --> 01:11:59.399
<v Speaker 2>with somebody through depression or being at the bedside as

1347
01:11:59.399 --> 01:12:02.840
<v Speaker 2>somebody's near death. Those are very inefficient things. Those take

1348
01:12:03.319 --> 01:12:06.439
<v Speaker 2>time and hand to hand human care. But that's love.

1349
01:12:06.600 --> 01:12:10.079
<v Speaker 2>That's who we are. Relational beings designed for love and

1350
01:12:10.119 --> 01:12:11.960
<v Speaker 2>communion with one another and with God.

1351
01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:17.159
<v Speaker 1>Unhurried was another word that really stuck with me as

1352
01:12:17.159 --> 01:12:20.199
<v Speaker 1>I was pondering those words in your book, No Agenda,

1353
01:12:20.479 --> 01:12:25.439
<v Speaker 1>unhurried togetherness, just getting lost in conversation. I mean, I

1354
01:12:25.439 --> 01:12:31.039
<v Speaker 1>think that's when you really experience Chiro's time. Yeah.

1355
01:12:31.159 --> 01:12:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And our society's driven by Chronos time, right, the

1356
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:38.359
<v Speaker 2>clock rains. Chronos is a jealous god and he wasn't

1357
01:12:38.399 --> 01:12:40.560
<v Speaker 2>the Greek pantheon, by the way too, And so yeah,

1358
01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:44.199
<v Speaker 2>the ways we can recapture moments of Chiros are so

1359
01:12:44.399 --> 01:12:46.960
<v Speaker 2>vital today to sort of step out of that Chronos

1360
01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:50.319
<v Speaker 2>clock time and into these eternal moments. The church is

1361
01:12:50.359 --> 01:12:52.920
<v Speaker 2>a great place for that to occur, where we literally

1362
01:12:52.960 --> 01:12:56.560
<v Speaker 2>experience a Chiros moment as Christ comes to us in

1363
01:12:56.600 --> 01:12:59.239
<v Speaker 2>his word and in his gifts in our homes. Great

1364
01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:01.439
<v Speaker 2>times for Chiro moments where we don't have to be

1365
01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:04.760
<v Speaker 2>driven by the clock. And ideally there can be times

1366
01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:06.720
<v Speaker 2>we're not driven by the clock at work and at

1367
01:13:06.720 --> 01:13:10.000
<v Speaker 2>school too, where we're not driven by shifts or bells,

1368
01:13:10.079 --> 01:13:13.439
<v Speaker 2>but by the actual engagement that we're having with other

1369
01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:16.760
<v Speaker 2>people and the things that we're doing and.

1370
01:13:16.840 --> 01:13:22.319
<v Speaker 1>They say that beauty can save the world. I hate

1371
01:13:22.319 --> 01:13:25.560
<v Speaker 1>to make a false distinction here, because there's beauty and hospitality,

1372
01:13:26.479 --> 01:13:29.079
<v Speaker 1>but I really started to think, I mean, you talk

1373
01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:32.960
<v Speaker 1>about bringing people into your homes and how hospitality can

1374
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:35.680
<v Speaker 1>save the world. Do you believe that?

1375
01:13:36.840 --> 01:13:39.800
<v Speaker 2>I do. I think that really is present in the

1376
01:13:39.800 --> 01:13:42.560
<v Speaker 2>scriptures and in the way that God saves the world.

1377
01:13:42.760 --> 01:13:47.159
<v Speaker 2>He welcomes us to his table. Jesus was all about hospitality,

1378
01:13:47.199 --> 01:13:51.600
<v Speaker 2>eating with sinners, tax collectors, and prostitutes, bringing people around

1379
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:55.239
<v Speaker 2>the table. And that paradigm obviously has all sorts of

1380
01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:58.279
<v Speaker 2>connections to the table of the Lord and the parish table,

1381
01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:01.239
<v Speaker 2>and our tables and our homes, and it's very powerful.

1382
01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:05.239
<v Speaker 2>It's countercultural to welcome people into your homes and into

1383
01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:08.159
<v Speaker 2>that act of eating. Last weekend, I was at a

1384
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:11.680
<v Speaker 2>conference in New Jersey speaking on education and technology, and

1385
01:14:12.079 --> 01:14:14.239
<v Speaker 2>in the airport when I was waiting for my flight

1386
01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:16.880
<v Speaker 2>to get home to Charlotte, a guy sat across from me,

1387
01:14:16.920 --> 01:14:20.119
<v Speaker 2>and he had a pizza. And you know what happens

1388
01:14:20.119 --> 01:14:23.640
<v Speaker 2>at the airports nowadays, everybody's just like this, right, nobody

1389
01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:26.239
<v Speaker 2>is interacting with each other. But he saw what I

1390
01:14:26.359 --> 01:14:30.359
<v Speaker 2>was reading, and he said Hey, brother, let's share some pizza.

1391
01:14:31.640 --> 01:14:33.840
<v Speaker 2>And so we sat This was just this was just

1392
01:14:33.880 --> 01:14:36.039
<v Speaker 2>such an amazing moment to me. We sat there for

1393
01:14:36.079 --> 01:14:39.520
<v Speaker 2>a half hour waiting for our flight, sharing a pizza together, right,

1394
01:14:40.119 --> 01:14:43.079
<v Speaker 2>and talking about wonderful things. We had a wonderful conversation

1395
01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:46.239
<v Speaker 2>and just made a human connection because he was willing

1396
01:14:46.279 --> 01:14:48.399
<v Speaker 2>to say, Hey, do you want to have some of

1397
01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:52.319
<v Speaker 2>my pizza? You know, there's something about eating together that

1398
01:14:52.359 --> 01:14:55.239
<v Speaker 2>can do that. Right. It opens up avenues of conversation

1399
01:14:55.359 --> 01:15:00.079
<v Speaker 2>that don't happen otherwise. There was a Cairo's moment for

1400
01:15:00.319 --> 01:15:04.680
<v Speaker 2>right right in the middle of a mechanized, quantified metric

1401
01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:08.359
<v Speaker 2>driven place like an airport, right where everything runs by Kronos.

1402
01:15:09.960 --> 01:15:13.840
<v Speaker 2>Thanks thanks to that guy for for embracing Cairos and

1403
01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:14.960
<v Speaker 2>sharing his pizza.

1404
01:15:14.680 --> 01:15:19.079
<v Speaker 1>With me and humanity, right, I mean totally, you're a

1405
01:15:19.119 --> 01:15:22.039
<v Speaker 1>person right in front of him, and we've lost the

1406
01:15:22.079 --> 01:15:24.760
<v Speaker 1>ability to I mean, you're a weirdo if you do that.

1407
01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:27.600
<v Speaker 1>And yes, thank god he asked you, because there's so

1408
01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:30.199
<v Speaker 1>many people who be like, what is this creep trying

1409
01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:33.600
<v Speaker 1>to do? There's there's got to be a and you know.

1410
01:15:34.600 --> 01:15:37.239
<v Speaker 2>Because I hadn't, I had skipped dinner that night to

1411
01:15:37.640 --> 01:15:40.800
<v Speaker 2>get to the airport, and I was hungry, and so

1412
01:15:40.840 --> 01:15:42.720
<v Speaker 2>it actually met a need too. It was just such

1413
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:46.159
<v Speaker 2>a wonderful confluence of things. And again he was open

1414
01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:49.479
<v Speaker 2>to that. Right, he was looking around and it saw

1415
01:15:49.520 --> 01:15:51.680
<v Speaker 2>that I was there and looked at what I was

1416
01:15:51.680 --> 01:15:53.279
<v Speaker 2>reading and was like, hey, we could we could have

1417
01:15:53.319 --> 01:15:55.960
<v Speaker 2>a conversation and need some pizza, And it was those

1418
01:15:56.000 --> 01:15:59.239
<v Speaker 2>are the types of things that that give you hope.

1419
01:15:59.439 --> 01:16:02.319
<v Speaker 1>I really, I mean, my wife and I wanted we

1420
01:16:02.359 --> 01:16:04.640
<v Speaker 1>worked really hard to try and find a home that's

1421
01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:07.000
<v Speaker 1>close to our church, that's close to the community that

1422
01:16:07.039 --> 01:16:11.560
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to develop and be really becoming rooted to,

1423
01:16:12.560 --> 01:16:16.000
<v Speaker 1>because we wanted to say, hey, come over our house

1424
01:16:16.039 --> 01:16:19.319
<v Speaker 1>before we live forty minutes away. Yeah, that's an investment

1425
01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:22.760
<v Speaker 1>for people. Now we're ten minutes away. Come And it's

1426
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:27.800
<v Speaker 1>really that hospitality driven not for ourselves, but for the

1427
01:16:27.800 --> 01:16:30.319
<v Speaker 1>sake of our community. I mean, we really do believe

1428
01:16:30.359 --> 01:16:32.720
<v Speaker 1>that that's such an important thing to break bread together

1429
01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:35.840
<v Speaker 1>and just right, yeah, well.

1430
01:16:35.680 --> 01:16:38.920
<v Speaker 2>And around the table to connect back to the beauty state.

1431
01:16:38.960 --> 01:16:41.119
<v Speaker 2>We'll save the world quote, I mean, you can engage

1432
01:16:41.159 --> 01:16:44.119
<v Speaker 2>in beautiful things. A meal can be a beautiful thing

1433
01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:47.640
<v Speaker 2>when it's well prepared around your table. You can have

1434
01:16:47.720 --> 01:16:51.119
<v Speaker 2>beautiful artwork, you can have beautiful discussions. You could listen

1435
01:16:51.119 --> 01:16:54.000
<v Speaker 2>to beautiful music or make beautiful music together in your home.

1436
01:16:54.079 --> 01:16:57.720
<v Speaker 2>So it's not disconnected. Hospitality and beauty aren't disconnected, that's

1437
01:16:57.760 --> 01:16:59.279
<v Speaker 2>for sure, Josh.

1438
01:16:59.319 --> 01:17:01.720
<v Speaker 1>What happens to a culture they can't name what it sees?

1439
01:17:05.239 --> 01:17:07.920
<v Speaker 2>You just get blindsided by whatever's coming because you're not

1440
01:17:08.039 --> 01:17:10.840
<v Speaker 2>thinking intentionally about it. And I think we're seeing that today.

1441
01:17:11.000 --> 01:17:15.680
<v Speaker 2>People just don't have the categories and the frameworks to

1442
01:17:15.760 --> 01:17:18.960
<v Speaker 2>think about what they're getting steamrolled by. And if you

1443
01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:20.720
<v Speaker 2>can't name something, then you're certainly not going to be

1444
01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:21.479
<v Speaker 2>able to resist it.

1445
01:17:23.359 --> 01:17:25.680
<v Speaker 1>Where are we most eager to look away from reality?

1446
01:17:27.720 --> 01:17:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Probably when it would force us to change something about ourselves,

1447
01:17:31.039 --> 01:17:35.000
<v Speaker 2>that it would cause us to confront our weaknesses and failures.

1448
01:17:35.079 --> 01:17:37.880
<v Speaker 2>I think those are probably the the areas that we

1449
01:17:38.560 --> 01:17:39.239
<v Speaker 2>are blind to.

1450
01:17:41.800 --> 01:17:45.800
<v Speaker 1>And in a world that feels increasingly unreal, what feels

1451
01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:46.560
<v Speaker 1>most real to you?

1452
01:17:49.439 --> 01:17:52.960
<v Speaker 2>What feels most real to me? As I'll give a

1453
01:17:52.960 --> 01:17:55.520
<v Speaker 2>couple things, maybe in different categories, like as a pastor,

1454
01:17:55.680 --> 01:17:59.439
<v Speaker 2>as a parent, and as a husband. Maybe as a pastor,

1455
01:17:59.479 --> 01:18:02.199
<v Speaker 2>what feels most real to me is when I have

1456
01:18:02.279 --> 01:18:05.520
<v Speaker 2>the honor and privilege of distributing the sacrament to people

1457
01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and literally in my hands in the chalice. I'm able

1458
01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:14.359
<v Speaker 2>to distribute the blood of Christ intimately to that person

1459
01:18:14.479 --> 01:18:18.800
<v Speaker 2>and have in a way share that experience with them,

1460
01:18:18.920 --> 01:18:22.199
<v Speaker 2>person by person by person. That is most real to me.

1461
01:18:22.479 --> 01:18:25.279
<v Speaker 2>That's the deepest reality of the universe right there, the living,

1462
01:18:25.439 --> 01:18:28.159
<v Speaker 2>resurrected body of Christ. As a parent and as a husband,

1463
01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:31.760
<v Speaker 2>what makes me feel most real is embracing my children

1464
01:18:31.840 --> 01:18:32.399
<v Speaker 2>and my wife.

1465
01:18:34.079 --> 01:18:40.880
<v Speaker 1>Hey man, I'm with you on all front. Sign it's reality, right,

1466
01:18:40.920 --> 01:18:44.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it all comes back to the incarnate Christ.

1467
01:18:44.079 --> 01:18:50.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's if that story is true. It's everything.

1468
01:18:51.800 --> 01:18:57.600
<v Speaker 1>It's right and clearly you and I believe that. One

1469
01:18:57.600 --> 01:19:00.520
<v Speaker 1>more thing. When you heard commitment to reality, what does

1470
01:19:00.560 --> 01:19:01.039
<v Speaker 1>that mean to you?

1471
01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:04.439
<v Speaker 2>I love it. I think it's a great title. I

1472
01:19:04.439 --> 01:19:06.840
<v Speaker 2>think it's exactly what we need, and to me, it

1473
01:19:06.960 --> 01:19:10.359
<v Speaker 2>means commitment to being embodied beings uh the unity of

1474
01:19:10.399 --> 01:19:13.479
<v Speaker 2>body and soul together and that we're going to have

1475
01:19:13.600 --> 01:19:16.279
<v Speaker 2>practices and habits that help us live this out in

1476
01:19:16.319 --> 01:19:18.119
<v Speaker 2>our lives and in community with each other.

1477
01:19:20.920 --> 01:19:23.520
<v Speaker 1>Josh Pauling we both live in Charlotte.

1478
01:19:23.920 --> 01:19:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sombodied meal together, Let's do it.

1479
01:19:29.880 --> 01:19:32.359
<v Speaker 1>I want to end by thanking you for joining me

1480
01:19:32.399 --> 01:19:35.840
<v Speaker 1>on a commitment to reality and putting a public proclamation

1481
01:19:35.920 --> 01:19:38.199
<v Speaker 1>out there that we've got to do this in person.

1482
01:19:38.920 --> 01:19:40.760
<v Speaker 2>Let's just break bread, all right, man.

1483
01:19:41.920 --> 01:19:43.359
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Josh. I appreciate it.