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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're diving right back in

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<v Speaker 1>to the Kathy Rumler interview with Congress mister Lynch. I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to understand are we going to see

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<v Speaker 1>the exhibits? Miss Crockett. I was just going to ask,

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<v Speaker 1>do you mind speaking up just a little bit? Miss Rumler?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh sure, Crockett. You kind of faded off towards the

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<v Speaker 1>end of your last statement. Rumler, okay, no problem, absolutely redacted.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll go back on the record, Miss Rumler. Okay. So,

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<v Speaker 1>as I was saying, I was certainly aware that he

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<v Speaker 1>had pled guilty to prostitution related offenses that involved sexualized massages.

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<v Speaker 1>I knew that he was open to me with me

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<v Speaker 1>about it, or so I believed about the nature of

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<v Speaker 1>his conduct, as I discussed at some length this morning.

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<v Speaker 1>So what I was making here was an offhanded joke. Certainly,

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<v Speaker 1>sitting here in twenty twenty six is in extraordinarily poor taste.

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<v Speaker 1>But it was a joke about his prior criminal history.

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<v Speaker 1>Redacted question. So when you wrote best Massage Ever, but

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<v Speaker 1>not your kind of massage, you were referring to how

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<v Speaker 1>he used massage to entice his victims. Answer, No, that's

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<v Speaker 1>not what I'm saying at all. Again, as we discussed

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<v Speaker 1>at length this morning, I understood that the conduct that

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<v Speaker 1>mister Abstein had engaged in, as stated by miss Backer

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<v Speaker 1>in the letter to the Deputy Attorney General, was that

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<v Speaker 1>mister Abstein was, in essence a customer or a john. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>taking a step back for a second. I had been

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<v Speaker 1>a prosecutor in the DCUs Attorney's office, and as a

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<v Speaker 1>young you know, prosecutor in that office. She gets cut off.

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<v Speaker 1>Question before we take a step back, let's take a

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<v Speaker 1>step forward. Answer, okay, question, what kind of massage were

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<v Speaker 1>you referring to? Answer for me question when you wrote

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<v Speaker 1>best Massage Ever, but not your kind of massage to

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Epstein? What was his kind of massage? Answer? Let

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<v Speaker 1>me explain the context of this email. Epstein had, I believed,

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<v Speaker 1>as a holiday Christmas gift, had given me a half

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<v Speaker 1>day spa at the Peninsula Hotel. Okay, and that's what

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<v Speaker 1>he's referring when he's saying we all set for a

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<v Speaker 1>day of joy. He's saying, are you going to have

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<v Speaker 1>a nice day at the Peninsula Spa? Where I was

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<v Speaker 1>able to, you know, pick up again, it was a gift.

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<v Speaker 1>I was able to pick up or pick whatever I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to do at the Peninsula Spa, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>lovely place in New York. Question that's right. Your emails,

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<v Speaker 1>the emails between mister Epstein and his assistant Leslie Groff,

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<v Speaker 1>they call it Kathy Rumler's Pampered Weekend. And then mims

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<v Speaker 1>Groff and you email, and you told miss Groff quote

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<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey's so thoughtful as always. So yes, answer okay, so yes.

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<v Speaker 1>And so he then asked me basically, you know, are

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<v Speaker 1>you all set to go have a you know, nice

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<v Speaker 1>day at the spa? Essentially, question a day of joy?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer a day. And so then after I go to

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<v Speaker 1>the spa. So it's the following day. I'd gone on

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<v Speaker 1>a Saturday. I believe I went on a Saturday morning.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I wrote back and said, you know, best

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<v Speaker 1>massage ever, meaning I had a very nice massage at

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<v Speaker 1>the spa. And I said, but not your kind of massage. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that was a joke to him about the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>he had engaged in the crime of prostitution. Where the

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<v Speaker 1>act again, as I understood it, was that he paid

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<v Speaker 1>women to give them sexualized massages. Now what I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to say, taking a step back, So again, as I stated,

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<v Speaker 1>I wish I had never met Jeffrey Epstein. I wish

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<v Speaker 1>I'd never dealt with the guy. It was a mistake

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with him. I wish I certainly wish I'd

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<v Speaker 1>never emailed with him. And sitting here, you know, ten

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<v Speaker 1>years later, in light of everything we know, now this

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<v Speaker 1>is a joke where I'm using humor to basically again

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<v Speaker 1>sort of call him out on the fact that he

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<v Speaker 1>had this conviction. And it's in poor taste. But when

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<v Speaker 1>I was, when I was a prosecutor, and I was

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<v Speaker 1>doing prostitution cases at this in this period of time,

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<v Speaker 1>so this when I was doing prostitution cases, it would

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<v Speaker 1>have been, you know, two thousand and one, two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and two. In the District of Columbia, the crime of

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<v Speaker 1>prostitution is the agreement between an individual who is seeking

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<v Speaker 1>sex and someone who is willing to provide sex for money.

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<v Speaker 1>The crime is the agreement, okay, And we were instructed

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<v Speaker 1>it was, you know, the policy of the office at

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<v Speaker 1>the time that because the crime was the agreement that

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<v Speaker 1>both the John and I'm using the law enforcement terms.

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<v Speaker 1>The john and the prostitute were both prosecuted. They were

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<v Speaker 1>prosecuted equally. Question can a minor be a prostitute? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely not. Question you told Jeffrey Epstein that answer absolutely not.

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<v Speaker 1>Question at least on one occasion. Is that right? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Under the law a minor United States law, a miner

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<v Speaker 1>cannot consent to prostitution. Yes, I agree with you entirely.

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<v Speaker 1>Question you mentioned this letter from a lawyer Thacker that

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<v Speaker 1>you refer to a lot. Answer yes. Question, Well, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that later. But the letter references massages on

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know eighteen times. It recounts allegation after allegation

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<v Speaker 1>of how mister Epstein used massage to entice victims. Answer yes, question,

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<v Speaker 1>so that's more than just Jeffrey Epstein paying for sex

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<v Speaker 1>one time in two thousand and seven. Right answer, Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>I have never suggested that I believed he had to

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<v Speaker 1>pay for sex for one time. Question So then, were

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<v Speaker 1>you so what were you referring to? Were you referring

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<v Speaker 1>to the full range of his alleged conduct that you

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<v Speaker 1>were aware of? Answer? This was an offhand remark. I

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<v Speaker 1>certainly wasn't referring to the full range of conduct. You

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<v Speaker 1>know in a one sentence, offhand joke that, as I've

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<v Speaker 1>said to you, sitting here today was in very poor taste.

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<v Speaker 1>Question did you think one of the issues here he

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<v Speaker 1>bought you this massage? This was not the first or

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<v Speaker 1>the last massage that he had bought you, nor was

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<v Speaker 1>it the only time you discussed massages with them. So

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<v Speaker 1>given what you knew, then why did you accept any

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<v Speaker 1>massages from Jeffrey Epstein? Answer? Okay, wait, wait wait wait

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<v Speaker 1>wait wait wait. Question she gets cut off. And why

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<v Speaker 1>were you joking about it and what you did with him? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>He gave me a gift. Okay, so he gave me

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<v Speaker 1>a gift, a half day at the spa at the

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<v Speaker 1>Peninsula Hotel in New York City. I think I also

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<v Speaker 1>got a facial that day. I don't remember. But in

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<v Speaker 1>any event, when I go to the spa, which I

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<v Speaker 1>have gone to many many times over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>my life, and I've gone to spa resorts, a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of women go to spas, and in ninety nine percent

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<v Speaker 1>of those cases, I've paid for my own massage as

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<v Speaker 1>a gift. He gave me a half day at Peninsula Spa,

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<v Speaker 1>and I got a massage, That is what this is.

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<v Speaker 1>Question you knew he was a registered sex offender at

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<v Speaker 1>the time? Right answer yes. Question so why were you

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<v Speaker 1>accepting gifts of massages from a registered sex offender whose

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<v Speaker 1>offenses including getting massages? Answer? I can't even follow the

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<v Speaker 1>logic of your question, mister addacted? What part don't you understand? Ms? Rumler,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand. I don't understand the question, mister adacted?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you want me to repeat the question differently? Question?

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<v Speaker 1>Did you ever think of his underage victims at any point? Think, Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not going to accept a massage from Jeffrey Epstein,

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<v Speaker 1>or I'm not going to joke about Jeffrey Epstein's history

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<v Speaker 1>of massage and I'm not even going to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>massages with Jeffrey Epstein. Answer As I said, I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>accept a massage from Jeffrey Epstein. He bought me as

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<v Speaker 1>a gift a day at a very well established hotel

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<v Speaker 1>SPA in New York City, and I accepted it because,

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<v Speaker 1>as I stated, he was a primary advisor to a

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<v Speaker 1>client of mine. There was no reason not to accept it.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a nice gesture and I accepted it. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>let's move on answer, it's not more complicated than that question.

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<v Speaker 1>So the twenty nineteen indictment at the arraignment, the government

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<v Speaker 1>said that mister Epstein engaged in a year's long scheme

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<v Speaker 1>to sexually abuse underage girls, paying minor girls to themselves

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<v Speaker 1>be abused, and also paying certain victims to recruit other

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<v Speaker 1>girls to be subject to the defendant sexual abuse rumler

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<v Speaker 1>minority Exhibit B. Let's introduce his minority Exhibit B an

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<v Speaker 1>email exchange between you and mister Ebstein from September nineteenth,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty fourteen. In it, mister Epstein wrote, quote, girls careful,

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<v Speaker 1>I will renew an old habit. Answer. Yes, I see

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<v Speaker 1>that question. We've already established that you were aware of

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<v Speaker 1>the allegations against mister Ebstein because you had read the

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<v Speaker 1>Thacker Letter. At this point. Did you consider whether mister

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<v Speaker 1>Ebstein was referring to his past crimes involving young girls

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<v Speaker 1>when he said, girls careful, I will renew an old

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<v Speaker 1>habit answer? Okay, First of all, I don't know whether

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<v Speaker 1>I had read the Thacker letter in September of twenty fourteen.

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<v Speaker 1>I had, you know, I'd only met with mister Ebstein

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<v Speaker 1>I think twice at that point so just to put

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<v Speaker 1>that into characterization in proper context. But I remember this

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<v Speaker 1>email very notwithstanding it was twelve years ago. I remember

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<v Speaker 1>this email very specifically, and during either the first or

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<v Speaker 1>second meeting that I had with Epstein. In the course

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<v Speaker 1>of the conversation, and it may have actually been in

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<v Speaker 1>reference to reference to me, he referred to women as girls, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>and I said to him, don't refer to women as girls. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm now fifty five years old, and I've been, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a practicing lawyer for a long time, and I've been

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<v Speaker 1>referred to as a girl by many men in many context.

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<v Speaker 1>And I said, don't do that. And so I write,

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<v Speaker 1>most girls do not have to worry about that crab.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm basically in my email referring back to that conversation. Okay, like, hey, knucklehead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm referring to myself here, most girls don't have to

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<v Speaker 1>worry about this crab. Then he responds, girls, question, Mark careful,

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<v Speaker 1>I will renew an old habit question. So it was

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<v Speaker 1>something of an inside joke between the two of you.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer about language question, got it question? All right, Let's

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<v Speaker 1>move on to minority exhibit CEE. This bates number e

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<v Speaker 1>f TA zero two five one zero eight zero three.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a March fourth, twenty fifteen email exchange, and

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<v Speaker 1>the portion I'd like to talk to you about's on

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<v Speaker 1>page one. Miss mister Fishman, can you give us a minute,

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<v Speaker 1>take us while to get down to the table redacted?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you see what you wrote to him? Darling? I

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<v Speaker 1>am not one of your young things, Miss Rumler, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I do. Question. What were you referring to, mister Fishman.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you mind if she looks at the whole document first? Redacted? Absolutely, Rumler.

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<v Speaker 1>So the context here is that I was doing a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of international travel in the course of my law practice,

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<v Speaker 1>and I can tell you I can tell you from

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<v Speaker 1>the context here that I had just landed in China,

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<v Speaker 1>because I say, I had a loner BlackBerry that makes

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<v Speaker 1>out going calls. So, as any member of the room

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<v Speaker 1>who has traveled to China knows, that's typically the protocol

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<v Speaker 1>that you would use when traveling to China. And he again,

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<v Speaker 1>in very typical fashion, I'm complaining about the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm hired from all the travel, and he patronizingly tells

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<v Speaker 1>me that I can figure out a way to travel better.

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<v Speaker 1>Question by redacted and then and then you reply answer,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I reply again in sort of a snarky way.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm not one of your young things. Remember

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<v Speaker 1>he had his girlfriend was probably fifteen years younger than

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<v Speaker 1>me and at that time, and said, I've been doing

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<v Speaker 1>this for twenty years and despite well honed skills, it

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<v Speaker 1>still sucks. Question. So there was his girlfriend, but you

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<v Speaker 1>said you're young things. So answer, well, he also had

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<v Speaker 1>he also had staff, you know, several women in their

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<v Speaker 1>you know, late twenties, early thirties who were on his staff,

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<v Speaker 1>who traveled with him. And so basically saying, don't again,

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<v Speaker 1>don't man explain me. I'm cranky again. He's asking for something,

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<v Speaker 1>he wants me to call him or something, and I

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<v Speaker 1>just landed in China, where I probably didn't want to be. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you remember about those staff? Answer? Pardon question

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<v Speaker 1>the staff you just mentioned, what do you remember about them? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I remember that he had quite a large staff, and

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<v Speaker 1>he had, you know, women and men on his staff,

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<v Speaker 1>and he had some assistance, personal assistance. Question do you

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<v Speaker 1>know if all the women on his staff were American?

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<v Speaker 1>Were any of them foreign? Answer? Some of them were

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<v Speaker 1>Russian and Eastern European yes, all right, folks, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to wrap up right here, and in the next episode,

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<v Speaker 1>we're going to pick up where we left off. All

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<v Speaker 1>the information that goes with this episode can be found

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<v Speaker 1>in the description box.