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Speaker 1: Well, hi everybody, and welcome to a special bonus episode

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of the Ricochet Podcast. It's Steve Hayward sitting in James

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Lonny's host chair, joined today by Peter Robinson with a

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very special guest that we are delighted to have with us.

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Ken Kachigian, is joining us for the whole hour of

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the show. Can has a wonderful new memoir out I

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highly recommend called Behind Closed Doors in the Room with

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Reagan and Nixon, and Ken started in politics way back

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in the nineteen sixties. I'll get a couple of questions

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from him about how that went worked for Richard Nixon

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and the Nixon White House, and then followed Nixon out

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to California after his resignation in nineteen seventy four, whereupon

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Ken went on to develop his own very successful law practice,

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which he kept going while being called back into service

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at crucial moments by President Reagan. And therein lies a

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great story. Can, I want to say, welcome to the

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Ricochet Podcast. And I guess my opening question is this.

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One of the things I love about your memoir is that,

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after all this time, it gives us some press perspective

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on some old questions and in light of some recent events,

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it makes us think differently about some aspects of the

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Nixon years and the Reagan years. But I guess the

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first question is what took you so long? I would

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have loved to have seen this from you a long

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time ago. What made you finally decide that the time

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was now for your memoir of things?

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Speaker 2: Steve?

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Speaker 3: I get asked that a lot, and it's a really

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easy answer, and that is I had to make a

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living in the meantime, all right.

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Speaker 2: I had my law practice, and people forget that.

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Speaker 3: Besides my law practice and writing speeches. In the interim

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for the president's I ran campaigns out here in California

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for Governor Duke Magin and Wilson and Dan Lungren, and

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I did two school choice campaigns out here in California

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and Carly Farina and Bob Dole's presidential campaign. So I

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was really busy with a lot of other things. I

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just didn't have time, and plus trying to put food

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on the table. And it was interesting in my mind.

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I had I knew I had to write this book

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at some point because I had so much to talk about.

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And as you've both written books, so you know, you

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know what you have to do. You have to start

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with the first word to that blank page. Is that

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daunting thing sits in front of you that drives you crazy?

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Speaker 2: What's that first word going to be?

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Speaker 3: And how are you going to open it up? And

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we were on a cruise off the coast of Italy

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and I got bored going into these villages or listen

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to somebody patter away about some ancient thing. And I said,

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I'm going to stay on the boat and have a

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cappuccino and smoke a cigar, and I opened up a

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legal pad and I started writing. But basically it made

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sense to wait. First of all, my memoir is rare

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because I wrote it. I didn't ghostwrite it. So many

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of my colleagues, Mike Deaber, Larry Speaks, Linn Nozinger, Ed Meese,

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and so many others, Jim Baker, they are ghost written,

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and mine is I wrote it byself, and so took

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four and a half years of research. And one of

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the benefits of waiting is that I had all the

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other books and all the other years of passage, plus

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I had the oral histories that were done, So the

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passage of time was a great benefit for this memoir,

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and I had the Reagan archives were much more organized,

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so it's a much better book having waited.

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Speaker 1: Right, Oh, I agree with that entirely. I think we

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want to go. I'll toss to Peter in a minute.

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I think I want to open and keep us in

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rough chronological order and ask a couple of questions about

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the Nixon years. I was, I'll put it this way,

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pleasantly surprised to read in your book you were one

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of the I guess the phrase that most people would

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use is one of the diehards defending Nixon to the

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last and actually counseling him, like our friend Bruce Hurrchison

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and some others, to resist resigning. And you know, lately

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I have taken to the work. I think you signed him,

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of Jeff Shepherd and a few others. We now look

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back on Watergate, especially in the light of the little

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affair we've seen recently against President Trump, with a whole

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new perspective about Watergate. And what's your summation now of

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how we should think about Watergate. We had large parts

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of that story wrong all this time.

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Speaker 3: For sure, And you cite Jeff Shepherd, and Jeff has

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done some extraordinary deep legal and academic research in the

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last fifteen years and more is going to come into

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a documentary he's done. But he has uncovered the corruption,

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and that is not a loose word, how corrupt Judge

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Sirica was, and how corrupt the special prosecutor Archibald Cox

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and Leon Georski were violating the fifth and sixth Amendments

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of the Constitution doing ex parte meetings with the prosecutors,

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that is that the judge met separately with the prosecutors

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without defense counsel being president, and rigging the appeals so

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that they went to the Special Course of Appeals so

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that Nano Sirica's dudgeons would be overturned. And so a

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lot of the Special Prostitution was rigged in favor of

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the prosecution all through the process. So what's being uncovered

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is just extraordinary, Steve. And then one thing that's interesting

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that I want to write about here somewhere in the

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next month, and if I don't do it, somebody else should,

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is that the so called Watergate cover up is minuscule

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compared to the cover up that was taking place over

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the last two or three years of a president whose

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mind was diminished. You had the Speaker of the House,

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the majority of leader the Senate. You had the Press

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secretary of the President of the United States, you had

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the Secretary of the State, you have this National Security advisor,

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all these people covering for a president with condon and

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deficiency holding a nuclear football in his hand, and he

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couldn't think straight. And that was a cover up of

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Mantra's capacity that dwarfed Watergate by huge degrees.

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Speaker 4: Ken, I just have to come in here because there's

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a question that our viewers are going to want to

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have asked, and I'm going to ask it. Peggy Noonan

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put in her column two three weeks ago that she

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realized how the Democrats were justifying covering up for Biden,

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and it was because they all had it in their

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minds that we had done it first, covering up for

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Ronald Reagan. Addressed that, Ken, if you would.

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Speaker 3: That's insane. It is owing capacity. There was no cognitive

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restriction on President Reagular. Look, I worked with him exactly.

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Speaker 4: This is the point. You're an eyewitness. This is why

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it's important to hear from you.

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Speaker 3: I am an eyewitness, and even though I wasn't there

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full time, I came in at critical moments in eighty

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five and eighty six and eighty seven and eighty eight.

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I was with him in eighty eight working on the

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convention speech that he delivered in New Orleans and worked

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with him intensely. He was on point throughout that whole process,

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and I write about it extensively in the penultimate chapter

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of my book about how he and Missus Reagan went

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back and forth about how the speech should look.

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Speaker 2: Like and then how he edited it.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't see any deficiency in his mind until

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four years later in nineteen ninety two. Was the first

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time I ever saw him lag. And that's when the

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first time I bumped into him at a front and

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the first time he didn't instantly recognize my face. But

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that was four years after he left the presidency, in

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two years before he recognized that he had Alzheimer's.

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Speaker 1: Well and right, and after he'd taken a serious fall

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from horse with I gave him a concussion.

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Speaker 4: I just want I just wanted to bring this out

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because it's on people's mind, sure, and it is a

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matter of record eye witness testimony that Ronald Reagan had

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full cognitive.

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Speaker 5: Capacity absotely throughout.

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Speaker 4: His presidency to the last day. I just wanted to

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get that on the record from Ken.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely. Now, look, I had personal interaction with him. Peggy

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did not have the same kind of interaction with him

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that I did. That's one of the great myths is

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that Peggy had a bond with him, that she had

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a lot of interaction, that she had a special relationship

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with him. And look, she's a creative and good writer,

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but she did not have the same kind of relationship

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that I did.

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Speaker 2: And I had.

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Speaker 3: The times that I worked with him, I had very

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strong personal interaction with him. He and I had a

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special relationship, and that means that we worked closely together.

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We interacted closely together, and that means I saw him

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close up and we edited back and forth.

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Speaker 2: So I can attest to that personally.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think, well, I want to hold that point

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for the elaboration. I want to ask one more revisionist

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question from the next that this stems back the Nixon

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years and then turned Peter loose on you and YouTube

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speech writers.

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Speaker 5: Draw them things out. So it's important.

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Speaker 1: I think you got your start with Nixon through Pat

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Buchanan and working for Pat Buchanan, and like the Watergate story,

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I look back now on Pat Buchanan and say, boy,

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hasn't he been vindicated in a lot of ways and

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the way American politics has gone, what people think about

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national identity questions, immigration, foreign policy to a very large extent,

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And whether or not you say that you think that

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Trump is an epigon of Buchanan nder Buchananism, Say a

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little bit about Pat Buchanan, whether you think my proposition

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that he's been vindicated here in recent years is correct.

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Speaker 3: Pat recognized the new majority before there was a new majority.

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He wrote about this going back into the seventies and eighties.

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If you look at if you get into the archives

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and read Pat's memos from the Nixon administration written in

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the late sixties and early seventies, he recognized the rising

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Republican majority. Of course, this goes back to ancient political

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history that some of us remember when Vick Scammon and

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Ben Wattenberg wrote the book The Real Majority of recognizing

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how the working men and women in America who were

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Democrats had risen up against the elitism of the Democratic Party.

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And Pat recognized this immediately and was writing memos to

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President Nixon about this, and then later on, as we

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were approaching the seventy two campaign was urging President Nixon

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to recognize this as well, and then later on he

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started publishing books about this, and then of course he

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ran his campaign for president on these premises when he

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challenged George Bush for the presidency. So Pat has indeed

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been vindicated. Pat was, as I recognized in my book,

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Pat was my mentor in politics and at the White House,

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and I still recognize that to this day. The man

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is absolutely brilliant, by the way, He's one of the

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most prolific writers. And if you want to be edited

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by Pat. Anytime I put anything in front of him,

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the minute he saw it, he started editing it.

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Speaker 6: Sort of scary, Ken, I'm trying to I'm trying to

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give think how we can give a flavor for the book,

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which is a large piece of work, some sort of

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slight memoir.

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Speaker 4: It's a large, serious piece of work. You quote from diaries,

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contemporaneous documents again and again. So how do we give

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a flavor of that to our listeners in a conversation.

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And here's a question that might be a way of

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getting into it. I think of my own experience where

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I worked for George H. W. Bush, first when he

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was vice president and then for President Nixon. So in

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my mind, I have this contrast between the two men

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that in some ways helped me to understand both of

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them better. How do you think of Richard Nixon? What

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are the ways in which Nixon and Reagan, the substantive

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ways in which they differed, and what did those two

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men nevertheless have in common? They respected each other although

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they were such different kinds of men.

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Speaker 3: Why well, they differed in the sense that Nixon was

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every waking moment he thought politically had a political equation

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to it, and I don't think Reagan thought that way.

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Reagan his political mind was more philosophical and there was

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focused on the philosophy of politics and more as a

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political crusader, and Nixon thought more about the tactics and

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the strategy of politics. And because Nixon began as a

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congressional candidate and then as a Senate candidate and then

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had to defend himself against the establishment, the elite establishment,

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he had to fight and scrap his way through the

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political world, and then he campaigned across the country for

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more candidates, And so I think Nixon really engaged himself

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a day to day more in that kind of political thinking,

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whereas Reagan didn't wake up in the morning thinking, you know,

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what some congressional district in Ohio would look like in

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the next campaign. Or let me put it in another way,

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if you sat down with Nixon and started chatting about politics,

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he started telling you a story about Charlie Hallick in

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Indiana and some good story about him, or about what

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carl Mont would do in South Dakota about treating some issue,

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or what Milton Young how he campaigned in North Dakota,

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or what Tom Dewey told him about some mistake he

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made the campaign, or then he'd start reflecting about it.

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You know, Ken, if I had put Thruston Morton in

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my ticket in nineteen sixty, I might have won the presidency.

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I don't think Reagan would ever think that way. You'd

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sit down with him and he'd say, you know, I

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really got bothered by the way they taxed me back

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in when I was an actor in nineteen fifties, and

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they got me those ninety percent taxes, and I worked

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so hard and they took those taxes away from me.

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And then you know, when I went on that speaking circuit,

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I was an MC at a program where they were

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giving awards at a bakeoff is the Pillsbury Bakeoff, and

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who could provide the best recipe And this lady won

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this award and they had her or a check for

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it was like something like ten thousand dollars. And you know,

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right off stage there was an IRS agent waiting to

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collect the tax.

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Speaker 2: Money from her.

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Speaker 3: They and he viewed it as somebody as I'm taking

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away that all are incentive for having done something creative.

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So I don't know, it's just minds thinking so differently.

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And yet they were both great communicators, but they communicated

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in different ways as well.

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Speaker 4: The two of you will be very brief here. This

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is Ken's show, not mine, but I'll tell a story

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that gets to your point about Reagan that I think

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the two of you will get a kick out of.

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I went to visit him down in the Fox Tower

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the year after he left office, and I knew I

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was going to see him that day, so I s

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paid special attention to the newspaper The La Times had

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three anti Reagan stories on the front page Saw Risk

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of Impeachment, Meese says, star wars Oversould. Cheney says there

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was a third anti Reagan headline. I get in there,

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mister and Ronald Reagan. The first thing he says was

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did you see the paper this morning? And I said, yes, sir,

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I did. I thought, braced myself, and he said, well,

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I just don't understand how the judge can decide the

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outcome of a sporting event. And I thought, what the

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hell is he talking? And he kept talking. I realized

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he wasn't talking about the front page. He was talking

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about the sporting page because a judge had just overruled,

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had just awarded the America's Cup to They ruled the

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New Zealand entry was illegal because it was a catamor

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as something like that. He hadn't even looked at the

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front page. He didn't care, and he said, well, at

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least it wasn't a judge I appointed. That was Reagan.

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That was Reagan. He'd when he when he quit, he quit.

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So Ken's here's what strikes me. Old speech writer. Nixon

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and Reagan were both writers. Nixon was more obviously intellectual.

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This is one of the things that people don't know

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about Reagan, but that comes through in your book. So well,

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he cared about the text. He worked hard on it,

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and I don't quite know how to put it, but

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I've always felt that no human being really knows what

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he thinks until he's put it in words himself. And

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both of these men, all their lives they had they

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approached politics differently, but all their lives they submitted themselves

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to the discipline of writing. They used us writers, of course,

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but they used us as extensions in some ways of

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their own minds. And so I always had the feeling

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you would know this. I never even met Richard Nixon,

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and you knew Ronald Reagan far better than a junior

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guy like I ever would. But I all had the

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feeling that they respected each other as men who were

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standing on the ground, who had reached firm conclusions, and

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that always struck me. Then the other thing that always

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struck me was that although they both moved in elite worlds,

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and the Republican Party in those days still had an

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Eastern establishment wing, which of course you know in detail

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that tortured Richard Nixon, they both came from working backgrounds

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and they understood that about each other too. I felt,

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does that sound right to you?

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Speaker 3: You know, they if people don't understand how similar to

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their backgrounds were by the way. They both were rooted

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in the Midwest. Originally, Nixon's family originally came out from

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the Midwest, and of course Reagan was came out from

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the Midwest. And they both came out from very sort

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of impoverished roots, and both made their way.

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Speaker 2: Out on their own.

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Speaker 3: And and Nixon, as he said, you know, they they

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in law school, they called him Nixon had an iron butt.

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He studied very hard and worked very hard, and it

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was very intellectual in that sense. And you're right, both

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of them used their writers as extensions of themselves. Nixon

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liked to work on his own speeches and edit. He

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edited heavily his own memoirs. He liked the nuance and words.

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He admired Reagan a lot for his ability to tell stories,

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and that's I mentioned that in the book quite a bit,

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and he told me that all the time. He says,

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Reagan is so good at telling stories. Kenny says, look

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at Reagan. I was always observing about colors and about scenes,

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and he's always looking at at things and graphically that

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makes him such a good communicator. And that's what how

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I learned about when I worked for Reagan. I learned

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a lot of about how Nixon observed Reagan. And I

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think Nixon admired that of Reagan, and he wished he

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could do it as well as Reagan, and he tried

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to do it.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: And what's what's interesting about both of them, by the way,

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they both neither one of them used teleprompters when they spoke.

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Speaker 2: I hope you noticed that in campaigns.

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Speaker 3: Nixon has spoke extemporaneously all the time, never used teleprompters

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at all in his campaign. He didn't even speak from notes. Now,

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Reagan used notes, but he never views teleprompters. If you

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go back and look at Reagan's inaugural address in nineteen

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eighty one, he didn't use a teleprompter.

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Speaker 2: Mike Neaber talked him out of it.

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Speaker 5: Oh really, yeah, Well, what was Diver getting at there?

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Speaker 4: What?

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Speaker 5: Diver just knew he would be better at doing it?

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Speaker 3: Dever, I mentioned it in the book, and I said,

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I don't even know what Deer was talking about. But

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Deaver said to him, said, Governor, I think you lose

359
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yourself and the teleprompter. Now, I don't know what the

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hell he meant by that, but Deaver seemed to know Reagan, yes,

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and whatever he meant by you seem to lose yourself

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and the teleprompter. So Reagan agreed with that, and so

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he decided just to speak from his half sheets, his

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famous half sheetes. Yes, if you watch his inaugural address,

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he doesn't use the teleprompter and as a result, he

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doesn't have that phony. You look about himself where his

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head and bobbing and bobbing and bobbing back and forth

368
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like all the other presidents do nowadays, if you watch

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Obama give a speech, his head goes, Bob's backing like crazy.

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Speaker 2: It's it's weird, like you're.

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Speaker 5: Watching a tennis match practically.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're watching a tennis match.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They use these teleprompters and it's so obvious. And then

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you see the glass reflection and if they if it's

376
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a bad day, the sun, the sun reflects off the teleprompter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, Ken, I think you're being too modest in a

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couple of ways, or Peter hasn't done you full justice

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I can make.

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Speaker 5: I can criticize Peter instead.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, first of all, I mean you've already hinted

383
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at the fact that, well you mentioned most everybody else,

384
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cabinet members, they they have their memoirs ghost written. I

385
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think that's firstly true of everybody that yours is not.

386
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,240
It's obviously an original work and quoting from your diary

387
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and so forth, and so it has a style that's

388
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so engaging.

389
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Speaker 5: But the second point is it makes some real news,

390
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I mean.

391
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Speaker 1: New news, as you might say these days, and especially

392
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on this question to Nixon. Now, I know that you

393
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,079
know Nixon and Reagan knew each other. Reagan mentions in

394
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his diary several places, Oh, Dick, Nixon had a great idea.

395
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He told me about arms control or some other thing,

396
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,079
and so you knew they communicate with each other. What

397
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,720
I did not know until your memoir is that you were,

398
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,480
especially the campaign in nineteen eighty the go between between

399
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,799
the two of them quite extensively. And of course you

400
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:26,559
do mention very candidly that needed to be concealed a

401
00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:29,680
little bit because of all the political baggage of Nixon,

402
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,799
and it would be used to attack Reagan and so forth.

403
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:34,079
But I think you should say a little more about

404
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,000
that for listeners, because you don't find this. I don't

405
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,720
think in any other accounts that I've read, how extensive

406
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,039
was Nixon following it day by day and communicating with you,

407
00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:47,200
communicating through you to Reagan and vice versa.

408
00:23:47,599 --> 00:23:49,319
Speaker 5: And how did that begin? Maybe that's a good way

409
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:50,279
to start. How did that?

410
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Speaker 2: You know what's Steve, You know what's fascinating about this.

411
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Speaker 3: Nixon went nuts in nineteen seventy six when Reagan was

412
00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:08,319
running for president, because he was He and I sat

413
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,519
down in San Clementy, and he would we would watch

414
00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:14,799
the camp. I was his political izing ears. So I

415
00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:17,799
would go in every day with all the clips in

416
00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:21,200
the background and watching television and tell him what was

417
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,559
going on with the Reagan campaign. And I was in

418
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,559
touch with David Keenan, Marty Anderson, and Linn Offsinger. They

419
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:31,559
would tell me stories from the campaign. And Nixon would

420
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:36,440
look at Reagan and say this was going right, this

421
00:24:36,599 --> 00:24:40,319
was going well, or this or he's making this mistake.

422
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,680
But it was driving him nuts that he couldn't pick

423
00:24:42,759 --> 00:24:46,480
up the phone and call Reagan, he couldn't give him advice.

424
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And Nixon would have been was such a great strategist,

425
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,400
and that he was dying to give Reagan direct advice

426
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,559
in that seventy six campaign. Now not necessarily that he

427
00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:03,279
wanted to to beat Ford or anything else, but he

428
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,920
was he saw that Reagan has says raw talent. He

429
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,000
wanted to mold him like a piece of clay, and

430
00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:15,200
he and he was frustrated. And then when Reagan put

431
00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:20,799
Schweiker on the ticket, it just nixon brain exploded at

432
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:24,000
what a stupid mistake that was. So I'm going back

433
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,480
only to say that. So now nineteen eight year rolls

434
00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:35,279
around and here it is Nixon's protege Me ends up

435
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,880
on the campaign plane with Reagan. And Nixon's not stupid. He's, oh,

436
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,559
here's a rare opportunity. I've got a mole in the

437
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:51,119
rege and I can now give advice. And so he's

438
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:55,799
he starts with phone calls and then next thing you know,

439
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,400
he's got Nick Ruey, who former Nixon an advanced man

440
00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:03,480
and now chief of staffed to Nixon. Nick calls me

441
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,119
up and he says, look, I've got some memo. He says,

442
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,119
the old man or the boss those days call him

443
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,400
the Boss. He says, can you meet with me? We

444
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,720
have this secret meeting. It's like a KGB agent meeting

445
00:26:19,759 --> 00:26:22,680
with the CIA in Kansas City. And I gave him

446
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,440
a code name, mister Hudson. And we meet two blocks

447
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,119
away from the hotel, because we're still there's a Watergate

448
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,640
baggage with Nixon that we're worried about. And Nixon writes

449
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,599
this long memo that for the first time I revealin

450
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,119
the book. So we're going back from seventy six to eighty.

451
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:48,200
Now Nixon can finally advise Reagan. And you know what

452
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:52,720
he's advising him, and it's stick to the economy and

453
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,440
don't talk about foreign policy. And then he's giving me

454
00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:58,880
advice about that, and then then does a second memo.

455
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,519
Speaker 2: How to do the debate with Jimmy Carter.

456
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,839
Speaker 3: And in the meantime he's calling me in different places

457
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,960
on the road. And this is so gratifying to Nixon

458
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,079
at the time. Now I don't know the extent to

459
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:18,599
which Reagan took all the advice, but this this gave

460
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,880
Nixon such gratification that he was for now he was

461
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,079
back engaged in politics. And I did think at the

462
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,039
end of the day, because the advice was going through

463
00:27:29,079 --> 00:27:33,079
Stu Spencer and Stu just to give you another little

464
00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:37,119
twist of history, Stu Spencer's dad was on the original

465
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,000
committee of one hundred that recruited Nixon to run for

466
00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:42,839
Congress in nineteen forty six.

467
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 5: I never hurt. Oh, I had no idea.

468
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 2: That was Ken Spence.

469
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,319
Speaker 5: H yeah, yeah. My dad knew Ken Spencer pretty well from.

470
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,559
Speaker 3: Ken Spencer was on the committee of one hundred that recruited.

471
00:27:56,039 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 2: So Peter.

472
00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:07,519
Speaker 3: Stu respected Nixon a lot. And uh, and so Stu

473
00:28:07,559 --> 00:28:10,039
would take these mamals and then give and give them

474
00:28:10,039 --> 00:28:12,920
the Reagan. So I would give the memos to Stu.

475
00:28:13,039 --> 00:28:14,160
Stull would give them the Reagan.

476
00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 1: So there's one other aspect where you're being too modest

477
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,839
ken and and and Peter also kind of picked up

478
00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:24,519
on it, but I really want to make this explicit

479
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:25,680
for listeners.

480
00:28:26,039 --> 00:28:26,279
Speaker 2: Uh.

481
00:28:26,599 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: It struck me as I was reading the book and

482
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,880
also remembering from the history of the time and my

483
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,480
own research over the years, how often you were brought

484
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,039
in by Reagan a key moments of crisis, like after

485
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,480
the First Debate in eighty four when he performed badly

486
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,559
for certain other key speeches.

487
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,599
Speaker 5: I'm not aware of many.

488
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: Other presidents that had an outside advisor with their own

489
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,200
private life and own life going on the.

490
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 5: Way you did.

491
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,319
Speaker 1: And one of the things that becomes clear in the book,

492
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:54,440
and as I say, you're too modest to boast about it,

493
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,599
and I totally get that and respect it, but that

494
00:28:57,119 --> 00:28:59,880
you immediately had a bond and a great trust with

495
00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:03,119
Reagan and Nancy Reagan in particular. You know, you do

496
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,400
mention it in there. You're very candid about how time

497
00:29:05,519 --> 00:29:07,119
she was sharp with you, as she could be with

498
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,240
everybody when she was mad about something going wrong or

499
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:15,160
she thought. But the subtext is very clear there that

500
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,599
that Reagan had you maybe not a Pedestal's exactly right,

501
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,359
But how do you explain that? I mean, did you

502
00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:23,839
did you was this? Were you conscious of this at

503
00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:27,160
the time, how unusual this was? And what's your explanation

504
00:29:27,279 --> 00:29:27,519
for that?

505
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: I think my explanation for that is that it started

506
00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:38,559
with the eighty campaign, and it took a while for

507
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,839
us to sort of create a relationship together. But I

508
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,480
think he liked that by the end of the campaign,

509
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,119
I was giving him good I gave him some good lines.

510
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:53,160
I was a good script writer, and he appreciated good

511
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,279
script writers, and so by the end of the campaign

512
00:29:56,319 --> 00:30:01,279
I had given him some good zingers, and so he said, here,

513
00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:03,559
I've got a pretty good guy that knows how to

514
00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:07,960
give me some singers. And then I had edited helped

515
00:30:08,119 --> 00:30:12,680
edit his last thirty minute speeches and gave him some

516
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,799
good lines there. And so I was one I was

517
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:19,480
one person who was familiar with I was a face

518
00:30:19,599 --> 00:30:23,400
that he knew, he was comfortable. So I had created

519
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,000
a comfort zone. And then I worked with him, of

520
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,559
course on the inaugural address and the and then then

521
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:30,279
then the.

522
00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 2: First few days.

523
00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:37,039
Speaker 3: Then then what I would ascribe it to Steve is

524
00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:40,079
that I didn't fight with him. I didn't argue with

525
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,079
him about uh, mister president, No, no, I don't. I

526
00:30:44,119 --> 00:30:47,400
don't like the way you're phrasing this. Here's here's what

527
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,319
you should say, or you know, this is what the

528
00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:55,200
way you should do it. I think there are a

529
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,480
lot of people, and I know later in the presidency

530
00:30:58,519 --> 00:31:00,720
a lot of his writers which try to tell him

531
00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:03,079
what to say or put policy in his head.

532
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to name names.

533
00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:07,839
Speaker 5: But Peter would be one of them.

534
00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: But not kidding well, I think Tony Dolan was one

535
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,480
always trying to make policy with his or would meet

536
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,799
with him and try to you know, and certainly Darman

537
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:26,640
and Baker, yeah, sort of implicitly or explicitly try to

538
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:27,680
make policy.

539
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,519
Speaker 2: But I didn't argue with him. I did what he wanted.

540
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:35,319
Speaker 3: I never thought nobody elected me to anything, So I

541
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,799
worked with him. And if I thought there was a

542
00:31:39,839 --> 00:31:43,079
way to make a phrase better, I would suggest, maybe

543
00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:45,079
we can do it this way. But I didn't fight

544
00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:46,720
with him because I thought he was a good writer.

545
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:50,000
So he felt comfortable. That made him comfortable, right.

546
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,079
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, one of the lines in the book

547
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:54,559
that really jumps out of me was you're quoting Nancy

548
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,839
saying Ronnie Ken's idea is good. You should listen to him.

549
00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:00,640
I don't know how often she I have said that,

550
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:01,920
but that's.

551
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:05,039
Speaker 3: You know where that came from. It came from my

552
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,799
education with Nixon. And I tell people I got my

553
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,640
graduate I got my PhD at the University of Reagan,

554
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,119
but I got my bachelors and masters at the College

555
00:32:16,119 --> 00:32:19,680
of Richard Nixon. And you can't spend four and a

556
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,160
half years in the Nixon White House and four years

557
00:32:23,759 --> 00:32:27,759
and sant commentated with Nixon without learning good politics and

558
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:30,279
good phraseology and good communications.

559
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: And so.

560
00:32:33,799 --> 00:32:36,559
Speaker 3: What we were talking about in that particular occasion was

561
00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:42,240
an interview with Barbara Walters and how to shape a

562
00:32:42,279 --> 00:32:48,079
message and during Watergate and dealing with the Vietnam War

563
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:52,359
and dealing with all the controversies that we had during

564
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,000
the Nixon administration. You learned how to shape a message.

565
00:32:57,279 --> 00:33:01,440
And so when we got into any situation where Reagan

566
00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:05,160
had to give an answer to a question, I think

567
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,799
I was in a better position than most people on

568
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,160
his staff because I had already had about six, seven,

569
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,920
eight years of experience dealing with a lot of high level,

570
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,240
troublesome situations in any of his other staff people.

571
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: And that was that came from Nixon.

572
00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 4: How did you get? I was about to ask. I

573
00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:26,960
was about to say, how did you handle Nancy Reagan?

574
00:33:27,039 --> 00:33:30,200
That is the wrong way to find that question, That

575
00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:32,519
is the wrong way to phrase that question.

576
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,079
Speaker 5: But how did you get? Did she make up her

577
00:33:37,119 --> 00:33:39,440
mind about you quickly? You're all right.

578
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,559
Speaker 3: As long as he was happy with me, She was

579
00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:48,440
happy with me. God, it was always reflective of his

580
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,480
relationship with me. There were some exceptions. She was not

581
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,839
happy with me when I wouldn't come back full time.

582
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,319
That was we were at Camp David and June of

583
00:34:00,319 --> 00:34:02,799
of nineteen eighty one when I was called back on

584
00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:06,200
a special situation after I had left the White House,

585
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:09,480
and I refused to leave my family to come back

586
00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:13,280
full time, and she was angry because Ronnie wanted me

587
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,519
back and Ronnie needed him, needed me, and.

588
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,079
Speaker 2: He was unhappy with me.

589
00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 3: But generally, if the President was happy with me, she

590
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,039
was happy with me. But if she thought that I

591
00:34:26,119 --> 00:34:29,320
wasn't serving him well, she would get unhappy. And there

592
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,639
was that confrontation on Air Force one after the first debate,

593
00:34:33,119 --> 00:34:35,559
or just prior to the first debate, where she thought

594
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,480
I wasn't serving him well and she thought I was

595
00:34:38,519 --> 00:34:42,840
the blame. She went after me even though it wasn't

596
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,960
my fault. So we had a little tiff. The blame

597
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,559
was on Jim Baker, not me, So it depended on

598
00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:50,360
this situation.

599
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,159
Speaker 4: But this is also this is also very important for

600
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,360
the record that an eyewitness, a man who knew them

601
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,599
both well, and there are not many left and there

602
00:34:58,599 --> 00:35:03,199
were never many who knew both. Mister knew both, the

603
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,320
government knew both the president and Missus Reagan well. That

604
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,920
Missus Reagan's concern was her husband right, not policy right,

605
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:17,320
not her own fame. We're not talking about a Hillary

606
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,639
Clinton who wanted her own career right. If you were

607
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:28,679
serving her husband, you were all right with her exactly. Yeah, correct, right, Yeah.

608
00:35:27,559 --> 00:35:32,199
Speaker 3: Except there was there was one exception, and that was

609
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:38,719
in that I think I sort of diplomatically deal with

610
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,320
with regard to at the end of the nineteen eighty

611
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:47,199
eight convention speech, and she wanted it a different way

612
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,639
than he wanted it, and I got caught in the

613
00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:57,639
middle at the very end, and to reflected in the

614
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:03,280
lunch we had at the rant and if you read

615
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,039
between the lines and the conversation that I kept my notes.

616
00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:09,440
I always kept my notes very It was hard to

617
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,559
eat shrimp tallad and take notes and listen to the

618
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:20,840
president first lady not getting along with each other on

619
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,559
how a speech should be written. She wanted it one

620
00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:30,199
way and he wanted it another way. And I felt

621
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,119
that if the President wanted it his way, that he

622
00:36:33,159 --> 00:36:36,320
should get it his way, and she wanted it a

623
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,000
different way. And in the end, because he got it

624
00:36:40,039 --> 00:36:41,960
his way and not her way, I think she was

625
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:42,840
unhappy with me.

626
00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:50,119
Speaker 4: Linn Navsiger told me the story that you may Lynna,

627
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,320
you probably know this.

628
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:53,119
Speaker 5: Excuse me.

629
00:36:53,519 --> 00:36:55,559
Speaker 4: The question here is what happened when the two of

630
00:36:55,639 --> 00:36:58,960
them disagreed, And Lynn told me the story that she

631
00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:03,079
called him this seventy six Reagan's been losing. They're now

632
00:37:03,079 --> 00:37:07,400
in North Carolina. Missus Reagan calls Lynn up to the suite.

633
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,159
The president or the then former governor is not there.

634
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,239
It's just the two of them, and it becomes clear

635
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,280
she starts in on Lynn. It becomes clear that it

636
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,559
is her idea that it's up to Lynn to talk

637
00:37:18,639 --> 00:37:25,480
Reagan into dropping out of the presidential race. And Lynn said,

638
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,960
as we know, she was a force of nature. And

639
00:37:29,079 --> 00:37:31,840
all of a sudden, the door opens and Reagan walks

640
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,960
into the suite unexpectedly, whereupon Lynn and Missus Reagan both

641
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,360
fall silent and just look at them look at him,

642
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,800
and Lynn said, somehow Reagan knew immediately what they had

643
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,719
been talking about. And Reagan looked at both of them

644
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,480
and said, I don't care what she says. I'm staying

645
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,880
in the race. So when it came to it, he

646
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:53,960
tended to get his way.

647
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,559
Speaker 3: Well, there is one other scene in the book that

648
00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:03,360
I describe where I was extraxtremely uncomfortable, where in the

649
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,599
nineteen eighty seven State of the Union, we're looking at

650
00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:09,280
the very final draft.

651
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 4: Nineteen eighty seven. Okay, right, this is when Don Reagan

652
00:38:13,559 --> 00:38:15,559
lost control, right.

653
00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 3: Right, and I've delivered the final draft.

654
00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 2: I guess we're in the residence.

655
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,039
Speaker 3: And I don't have the book in front of me,

656
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,159
but I've described it in the book where he distinctly

657
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:33,559
and he says, Okay, it looks like we're pretty much

658
00:38:33,639 --> 00:38:37,039
done here. He said, but Ken, we don't have a

659
00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:43,840
reference here to the right to life. And I'm a

660
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,679
little troubled by that. And don't you think we ought

661
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:52,320
to insert something in here about protecting the life of

662
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:57,800
the unborn? And missus Reagan is standing behind him, and

663
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:03,559
I'm looking at her over his shoulder, and she's shaking

664
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:08,840
her head furiously. No, no, no, no, and mouthing the

665
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,400
words no, I'm and I say to him, and I

666
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:23,079
sort of stutter, going, well, mister President. Then I say, well,

667
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:26,679
I think you've said it, and there, well, but our friends,

668
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,960
our friends, you know, they're upset when I don't put

669
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,480
that in speeches. And she's still shaking her head furiously. Okay,

670
00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:37,320
So he's arguing to put it back in, and if

671
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,599
I go with him, she's gonna put a stiletto in

672
00:39:41,679 --> 00:39:46,400
me that goes from stomach to back, and you know,

673
00:39:46,639 --> 00:39:51,400
I will never be seen again. And so I finally

674
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,880
come up with this line where I sort of a

675
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,360
gutless line where I said, well, you know you've you've

676
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,639
made your point so many times as president. I think

677
00:40:00,679 --> 00:40:03,039
they'll forgive you this one time for not putting it in.

678
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,639
And it was sort of a cowardly exit on my part.

679
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,039
Speaker 5: But in the facing certain death.

680
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it would have meant probably not serving him again.

681
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,760
So I don't know, but.

682
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:21,639
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's such a bad moment for you, Ken.

683
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,760
I mean remember that, I'm sure you do. Remember that

684
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,199
Reagan was the first sitting president to publish a book

685
00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:29,599
while in office, and it was his book some months

686
00:40:29,639 --> 00:40:32,280
before the campaign, on Abortion and The Conscience of a Nation.

687
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,800
And as you probably know, there was a huge fight

688
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,880
among Reagan's political staff about him publishing that book.

689
00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:40,679
Speaker 5: At the end of the day, he said, I want

690
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,199
to do it. So anyway, I think you were right.

691
00:40:43,519 --> 00:40:45,079
Speaker 1: In other words, I think the line you made was

692
00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:48,519
substantively correct, even if it was an awkward and difficult moment.

693
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 5: Anyway, Peter, You've got a couple more. No, No, I'm

694
00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:51,880
just I got it.

695
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 4: I had a pro life passage in a speech that

696
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,000
we got into a meeting in the Oval office. Endarment

697
00:40:57,079 --> 00:40:59,400
and Baker were there, and they both tried to talk

698
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,280
him out of it, and Reagan just listened and smiled,

699
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,159
and then he's the President stood up and went to

700
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:06,719
his desk and said, by the way, I have I

701
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,800
just received a letter from some medical doctors telling me

702
00:41:11,199 --> 00:41:16,039
about the that fetuses can feel pain earlier and what

703
00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:19,559
he understood, and this is ray. He just he read

704
00:41:19,639 --> 00:41:22,760
this passage signed by six medical doctors as if it

705
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,079
was just interesting to him, and then he walked back

706
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:26,519
to his chair, and on the way to his chair,

707
00:41:26,559 --> 00:41:30,039
he dropped the letter in Darman's lap and said, I

708
00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:34,559
think we should put that in this speech too. Oh

709
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,760
my goodness. Baker and Darman went white as sheets with fury,

710
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,360
but of course they controlled themselves. It was it was

711
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,039
he did he was He felt strongly on that one.

712
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:50,039
So Ken, here's the question of the hour. Richard Nixon

713
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:57,559
gets dealt a very bad hand Vietnam, the erosion of

714
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:04,159
our position in the Cold War, stagnant economy, an establishment

715
00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:08,360
that was against him. But by the end of the administration,

716
00:42:08,519 --> 00:42:11,320
the economy is beginning to turn around. We're finally out

717
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,199
of Vietnam. Reagan comes in and the seventies are put

718
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:22,199
behind us and we get a national renewal. I mean,

719
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,039
I've just so struck. I think about this often that

720
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,480
seventy nine we're in such a weak position that the

721
00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:32,199
Soviets feel free to go into Afghanistan and the Iranians

722
00:42:32,199 --> 00:42:36,159
feel free to take Americans hostage. And eighty nine, this

723
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,159
is just ten years later, there's been such an American

724
00:42:39,199 --> 00:42:42,400
renewal that it spills over into the rest of the

725
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,719
world and the Berlin Wall comes down. There are a

726
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:51,920
lot of Americans who have their hopes up this time.

727
00:42:53,679 --> 00:43:02,119
Are we in a position for another national renewal? Is

728
00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:05,719
the are the predicates, the political predicates, the will of

729
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,559
the people, the political system, or is this more likely

730
00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:13,559
to be Donald Trump just holding the line as best

731
00:43:13,599 --> 00:43:17,000
he can, holding things together, which I take to have

732
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,000
been Richard nixon gifts. Richard Nixon's gift to the nation.

733
00:43:20,119 --> 00:43:25,000
He held things together in a very difficult time. What's

734
00:43:25,039 --> 00:43:26,840
the correct parallel, what do you expect?

735
00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 3: Well, the benefit Reagan had was he had an adversarial press,

736
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:39,880
but not an enormously adversarial press. He entered the presidency

737
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,719
with a pretty pretty balanced media, and it got tougher

738
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,239
as he went, and it got tougher, especially during the

739
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,280
Bitburgh controversy. They went after him, and then during the

740
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,840
Iran contra. But when he started with the economic recovery

741
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:04,239
in eighty one and the defense build up, he didn't.

742
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,239
He wasn't confronted with the massive adversarial press that Nixon

743
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,000
had in nineteen sixty nine when Nixon was dealing with

744
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:18,239
the Vietnam War. Trump's issue is that he's going to

745
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,840
have an adversarial press from January twenty first day one.

746
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,559
So Trump's going to be faced with a lot of

747
00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:30,559
the same problems Nixon had. Now he has what Trump

748
00:44:30,599 --> 00:44:33,559
has going for his favor that Nixon did not have,

749
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,360
And I mentioned this in all my presentations, is that

750
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,360
Nixon never had a Congress going for him. Nixon had

751
00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:43,679
the Congress in the hands of the Democrats for the

752
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,880
entire five and a half years of his presidency. When

753
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,880
you see what Nixon accomplished during his presidency with Democrats

754
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,000
in charge of the Senate in the House the entire

755
00:44:54,679 --> 00:44:59,159
the absolute entire time Nixon was in office, and He's

756
00:44:59,199 --> 00:45:02,559
still got a lot of things done. Trump has the

757
00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:05,840
advantage of having the Senate in the House for at

758
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,000
least first two years of his presidency. If he's very

759
00:45:09,039 --> 00:45:13,599
clever and very careful, then I think he can what

760
00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:18,639
you're saying is potentially possible, and he has to he

761
00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:24,599
can't squander that advantage. If he squanders that advantage by

762
00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:31,280
behavior that goes overboard, or by not being presidential, by

763
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,119
not using his powers wisely, then he'll he'll lose the

764
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:36,480
ability that he has.

765
00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 2: But he has that.

766
00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:42,599
Speaker 3: Potential going for him because that's that's an ability that

767
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,559
he has to take and regularly had a Senate going

768
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:50,480
for him in the first part of his presidency. So

769
00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:54,079
and Trump, I will say this about Trump. He knows

770
00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:57,719
how to use the bully pulpit. He really does. I

771
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,480
think he needs to be a bully. But you're right right,

772
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,719
he doesn't. He does, he does know how to use it.

773
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,000
And but if he uses it, but he can, he

774
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:10,239
has he also has the ability to squander it away,

775
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,119
and he has to be very careful. And I do

776
00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:16,559
think when he's one thing he's doing wisely is he's

777
00:46:16,599 --> 00:46:21,599
bringing loyalty into the into the equation on his staffing.

778
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:26,440
And I don't I'm not quite sure he's everything he's

779
00:46:26,519 --> 00:46:29,280
doing in terms of his appointments is is wise, But

780
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,000
within his internal staffing, I think he's making wise decisions.

781
00:46:35,079 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 5: You know, there's the Peter's question.

782
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,599
Speaker 1: Your answer reminds me of the apocryphal Mark Twain line

783
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:42,920
that history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. And so

784
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:44,559
in the last couple of weeks, when Trump has been

785
00:46:44,599 --> 00:46:46,800
going on about the Panama Canal and maybe we ought

786
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,760
to get it back, I kind of wish his next

787
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,880
sentence would be because Ronald Reagan.

788
00:46:50,679 --> 00:46:52,199
Speaker 5: Was right about it after all.

789
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: But beyond that, I mean some of his things now

790
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,119
that are you know, either outrageous or amusing, or some

791
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,280
deliberate combination, like the goal of America instead of Gulf

792
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,400
of Mexico, and you know, we want Greenland. Never mind

793
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,920
of those are may really be about or not. But

794
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:10,639
underneath that, the subtext to me is very reagan Esque,

795
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,400
but in Trumpian bombast. In other words, he's really trying

796
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,880
to turn the page and reverse this what you might

797
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,400
call a little America again. It's an echo, distorted echo

798
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,840
of Jimmy Carter's Age of decline in Malais that we've

799
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,599
been having the last several years. And so in that respect,

800
00:47:26,599 --> 00:47:29,599
all of the personalities are so different and rhetorical styles.

801
00:47:29,679 --> 00:47:33,079
And you know, as you say, his own character, which

802
00:47:33,119 --> 00:47:37,800
is erratic, I do see some Reaganesque parallels there. You know,

803
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,840
is that reasonable or is that Peter thinks it's reasonable.

804
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 5: I think go ahead, Peter.

805
00:47:44,519 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 4: Going through the last question, Ken, this is this is

806
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,840
just occurring to me, but it's almost mandatory in light

807
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,400
of what's happened the last few days. So if the

808
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,280
rest of the country would like to tune out, Ken

809
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,760
and Steve and I have something in common with both

810
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,880
Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, and that is, we can't

811
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:10,519
help ourselves. We love California. So California meant an enormous

812
00:48:10,559 --> 00:48:14,199
amount to both of those men. It's Nixon grew up here.

813
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,920
He couldn't help himself from returning to California. He was

814
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,719
always felt drawn like a moth to a flame, to

815
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,000
New York and to the power structures in the Eastern establishment.

816
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,320
But he was always most at home out here in California.

817
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,280
And of course Reagan loved the place. It was where

818
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,440
everything good happened to him. I once heard him say

819
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:37,519
you may have heard him say it a dozen times.

820
00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:39,360
I think I only caught it once as he said,

821
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,079
if the pilgrims had landed in California instead of back east,

822
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,679
nobody would have bothered to discover the rest of the country.

823
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:53,159
Speaker 5: All right, So Pete Wilson. I can't remember the year

824
00:48:53,159 --> 00:48:55,639
in which Pete left office. But Pete was the last

825
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,679
of two things. He was the last real Republican.

826
00:48:59,119 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 4: Governor, which means I'm not counting Arnold Schwarzenegger. We can

827
00:49:02,559 --> 00:49:04,519
argue about that if anybody wants to argue, but that

828
00:49:04,639 --> 00:49:07,039
man was no Republican when it came to it. And

829
00:49:07,079 --> 00:49:11,639
he was also the last competent governor. He was competent

830
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,039
in politics, he had that Nixon element in him, but

831
00:49:17,119 --> 00:49:20,960
he was competent as a governor. He got the state

832
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:24,039
government to do what it ought to do, to treat

833
00:49:24,079 --> 00:49:27,119
citizens well, to permit economic growth to take and recover

834
00:49:27,199 --> 00:49:29,679
from big disasters. Let's keep that right now, and recover

835
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,800
from big disasters. So what I'm wondering is is their

836
00:49:33,119 --> 00:49:40,239
hope for California. Can these unbelievable catastrophe As we record this,

837
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,679
these fires are still raging, and as far as I can,

838
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,840
I just checked the news. They think they have the

839
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:50,000
Pacific Palisades fire controlled by two percent. These things are

840
00:49:50,039 --> 00:49:54,000
still out of control. Are California is going to finally

841
00:49:54,039 --> 00:49:58,360
demand competent governance again? Is there even an opening for

842
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,280
some rebirth of the Republican? How can it be that

843
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:07,519
the most beautiful, talented, magnificent state in the country can

844
00:50:07,559 --> 00:50:10,000
be so messed up for so long?

845
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 3: I've been thinking about this all day, And of course

846
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:19,000
it's not. It's not just the governor, it's it's I

847
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:23,000
watched the speaker responding the question I was watching on

848
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,800
X today, responding to questions, I mean, the man is

849
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:28,400
an idiot revs.

850
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:29,159
Speaker 2: Is that his name?

851
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 5: The Speaker of the Assembly.

852
00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, he couldn't get a declarative sentence out. And so

853
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:42,000
the entire legislature is an autocracy that doesn't know what

854
00:50:42,039 --> 00:50:48,679
it's doing. And so the entire state is being governed irresponsibly.

855
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,519
But it's but who is voting them in? It's it's

856
00:50:52,559 --> 00:50:56,480
the people whose houses, the five the six thousand houses

857
00:50:56,519 --> 00:50:59,880
that have been raised, my guess has voted two thirds

858
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,000
of them voted for these people in office.

859
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 4: Of them gave a lot of money. These are rich,

860
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:08,880
this is these are the rich California right, You're talking about.

861
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,159
Speaker 3: Here, exactly concerned about the fire hydrants that didn't have

862
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:16,280
water and probably have given the money to the Environmental

863
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,199
Defense Fund. So it's it's and and by the way,

864
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:24,159
a lot of these problems don't just rest on Gavin Newsom.

865
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,480
They go back to Jerry Brown. People forget this all

866
00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:33,719
began with Jerry Brown. And somebody was talking or writing

867
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,000
about the train to nowhere this Oh, it was John

868
00:51:38,079 --> 00:51:41,480
Hi Bush and his substack this morning that I read

869
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:43,639
I was talking about the train to nowhere that that

870
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,760
began with Jerry Brown. It didn't begin with Governor Newsom.

871
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:52,880
And and the the high tax rate of thirteen plus percent,

872
00:51:53,159 --> 00:51:56,320
that was a proposal by Jerry Brown, not by the

873
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,960
legislature or by Gavin Newsom. That began with Jerry Brown.

874
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,119
Jerry Brown is the progenitor of all these problems, and

875
00:52:04,159 --> 00:52:08,800
nobody's pointing the finger at him. So, yes, there's hope

876
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,039
if the people look within themselves.

877
00:52:12,519 --> 00:52:13,039
Speaker 2: But it.

878
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:17,559
Speaker 3: Has to do with the leadership in the state. The

879
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:21,840
business community has to has to turn its back against

880
00:52:23,039 --> 00:52:27,960
funding a lot of this. And and but do you

881
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,280
think the editorialists at the La Times, I'm glad that

882
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,000
this man who bought the is Patrick is his name?

883
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:38,679
Speaker 5: I can't pronounce the name doctor.

884
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't get around the last name. But who's

885
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,519
bought the La Times. Maybe he'll turn it around. But

886
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,079
I don't think they're writers or anybody else is going

887
00:52:49,159 --> 00:52:52,559
to change. And maybe some of their houses have burned down,

888
00:52:52,599 --> 00:52:54,960
but they they don't even.

889
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,039
Speaker 2: Think about these things.

890
00:52:56,119 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 3: It's it's unless that changes, nothing's going to change.

891
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:04,840
Speaker 2: But it really is sad that the state that I

892
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:05,400
grew up.

893
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 3: In, and the wonderful, beautiful state that it is unless people.

894
00:53:12,079 --> 00:53:14,519
Speaker 5: I don't understand how the Armenians could have let this happen.

895
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,760
Speaker 3: Well, George, I can guarantee that none of this would

896
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,519
have happened, of course, not of course, not great right,

897
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,960
great government. By the way, you talked about an era

898
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,440
of national renewal. That was that was one of the

899
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,519
themes of I don't know if you actually did that

900
00:53:33,599 --> 00:53:36,840
on purpose. That was the theme of President Reagan's nineteen

901
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:38,599
eighty one in honorable address.

902
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: Right right, that you you were the first draft writer

903
00:53:41,559 --> 00:53:43,800
to organize his thoughts and then handed off.

904
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 3: We called for an air national renewal. I would just

905
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,559
say one last thing about Trump's chances here in the

906
00:53:53,599 --> 00:53:57,320
first two years, whether it's Greenland and Pantamountact, all those

907
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,360
other things. Unless he focuses on the economy, he'll be

908
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,440
making a big mistake.

909
00:54:02,519 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: He's got to get the economy back on track.

910
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,039
Speaker 5: So Nixon was right again. Ken, We have barely scratched

911
00:54:08,079 --> 00:54:08,880
the surface.

912
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:11,119
Speaker 1: Of what you revealed and Behind closed Doors, but thank

913
00:54:11,159 --> 00:54:13,559
you for opening some of those doors. I think we

914
00:54:13,639 --> 00:54:15,440
want to have you back when you do some more

915
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,440
work on Watergate and and you know the revisions going

916
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,480
on with that. But in the meantime, thanks for spending

917
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,880
an hour with us. Congratulations on Behind Closed Doors. Peter,

918
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,159
glad you could surface once in a while to join Ricochet.

919
00:54:29,119 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 3: Listen. That's the only thing I ever get asked on.

920
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:39,320
I've made one hundred and two radio interviews, podcasts, TV interviews,

921
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:43,960
and twenty book presentations. You know the question I always

922
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,719
get asked, did you right tear down this wall?

923
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 2: One of these days I'm going to take credit for

924
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:58,280
that damn speech. Peter doesn't deserve it well get asked.

925
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,119
Speaker 3: But I do where credit is.

926
00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 2: Now, you know?

927
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 4: Okay, So Steve, we're getting we're getting notes here from

928
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,079
our producer who wants to break for launcher, but I do.

929
00:55:10,519 --> 00:55:12,280
So you touch on that. I'm not going to go

930
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,800
through this whole story, but it's important. I think you're

931
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,079
gonna agree with me. I know what you're gonna say, Peter,

932
00:55:17,119 --> 00:55:20,639
go ahead. I wrote that speech. I would not have

933
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:24,760
written that speech for anybody else than Ronald Reagan. And

934
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,280
by that stage, I've been in Washington long enough to

935
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,320
get to know George H. W. Bush, Howard Baker, a

936
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,960
number of men who might have been president instead of

937
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,039
Reagan would only have written that for Reagan, and only

938
00:55:36,079 --> 00:55:39,039
Reagan would have delivered that. And so yeah, I don't

939
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:42,599
it feels to me as though we're speech writers. But

940
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,400
I'm sure you agree Ken that over and over again

941
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,480
in your work. It's it's it's you can hear Reagan

942
00:55:49,519 --> 00:55:51,480
in your own mind as you're writing for him.

943
00:55:51,679 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 5: Somehow or other.

944
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:55,679
Speaker 4: The speeches that we wrote for that man belonged to him.

945
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 2: There was a man who's stagecraft, Yes he did. Yeah, right,

946
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:01,320
that's very important.

947
00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:04,639
Speaker 5: All right, listeners, thanks for joining us.

948
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,079
Speaker 1: As we always like to say, or James Lydix likes

949
00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:11,000
to say, please go to Apple's iTunes and other venues

950
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:13,159
and give us a five star review. Join us in

951
00:56:13,199 --> 00:56:16,039
the comments on Ricochet four point zero. I guess we're

952
00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:18,360
calling it and we will see you back here next

953
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week after you have gone to the bookstore and ordered

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Behind Closed Doors by Kenn Kachikian.

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Speaker 5: Ken, thanks for joining us, Ken, thank.

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Speaker 2: You, thank you very much. See you both.

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Speaker 4: Ricochete join the conversation.