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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the nonprofits again. For the third and final

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<v Speaker 1>segment this week, we set aside the active combat zone

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<v Speaker 1>that is the American educational system and look at something

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit more concrete, global population. There can't be

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<v Speaker 1>any disagreements on that, Ken there, Eli Slack, Please tell

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<v Speaker 1>me there are some things in this world we can

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<v Speaker 1>all agree on absolutely, And.

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<v Speaker 2>Now it's time for the song of My people. Science

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<v Speaker 2>Josiah Slang Ridder, a postdoc researcher from Alto University in Finland,

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<v Speaker 2>and some others are suggesting that the Earth might contain

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<v Speaker 2>significantly more humans than we think. Ridder's paper, published in

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<v Speaker 2>Nature Communications, took data from rural dam projects, where companies

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<v Speaker 2>know exactly how many people they displaced to build the

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<v Speaker 2>dams because they had to pay each of them for

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<v Speaker 2>displacing them, And then they compared that data to official

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<v Speaker 2>estimates of populations and found that official estimates undershot the

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<v Speaker 2>more precise damn project data by between fifty three to

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<v Speaker 2>eighty four percent, depending on the area. Now, on the surface,

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<v Speaker 2>this seems to me like solid reasoning, but experts are

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<v Speaker 2>cautiously skeptical, noting that wow, there's good reason to invest

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<v Speaker 2>more research. Into rural populations. Having a correction on the

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<v Speaker 2>order of a few billion people is a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>outside of the realm of reality for the first preliminary data.

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<v Speaker 2>This story is from Popular Mechanics by Darren Orf on

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<v Speaker 2>June twenty first, twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, and we're going to come right back to

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<v Speaker 1>you with the questioning beginning with Eli, the science guy,

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<v Speaker 1>Eli the Chris.

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<v Speaker 3>Where the hell is Eli's theme song Scott, Get out

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<v Speaker 3>of your dream World? You know we don't have the

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<v Speaker 3>budget for that kind of a thing.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, all right, well, Eli, anyway, as a fellow nerd,

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<v Speaker 1>what's your take on this?

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<v Speaker 3>It's interesting that that was a bad joke.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, continue, It's interesting to me. I like the method.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he knows or suspects at least that the

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<v Speaker 2>damn prod that the companies building the dams are going

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<v Speaker 2>to have more precise and verifiable, honestly records about how

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<v Speaker 2>many people were there because they had to pay them, so,

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<v Speaker 2>they needed bank accounts, they needed addresses, they needed to

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<v Speaker 2>know how many people were in each home, and all

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<v Speaker 2>things like that. So when you compare that to estimates

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<v Speaker 2>from organizations like World pop or GWP, grump, land Scan

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<v Speaker 2>and GHS pop which.

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<v Speaker 3>Sounds like international.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, grump sound like international like pop bands in a way.

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<v Speaker 2>But he found the discrepancy, he said, he said, hey, look,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was significant, and so it got published. And

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<v Speaker 2>it does matter because we allocate funds to rural areas

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<v Speaker 2>based on their population densities. So for underrepresenting them, we

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<v Speaker 2>are under serving them. But I think it is also

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<v Speaker 2>a good representation of a scientific method, because we saw

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<v Speaker 2>in the article. He had some criticism from Hong Kong

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<v Speaker 2>University of Science and Technology. A researcher named Stuart geigle

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<v Speaker 2>Baston said, essentially, I'm kind of, you know, extrapolating from

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<v Speaker 2>what he said, but just because it's compelling, that doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean that it's true. You know, it's something, it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's common for it's common to find something and

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<v Speaker 2>think like, oh, like this is you know, if this

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<v Speaker 2>is true, this changes everything. And the first step in

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<v Speaker 2>that is follow that data, see why you have that

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<v Speaker 2>discrepancy before you start making like grandiose claims.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, yeah, exactly, Stephen, what's what's your take on this?

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<v Speaker 1>I I think that you have a slightly less enthusiastic

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<v Speaker 1>perspective here than Eli.

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<v Speaker 3>So what can you add that as a counterpoint?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, No, I think this is really good science for

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<v Speaker 4>when you're sitting on the shitter. I think it's really

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<v Speaker 4>entertaining for.

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<v Speaker 1>It when the best science happens anyway, Right, isn't that kind.

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<v Speaker 2>Of where you guys read for the show?

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<v Speaker 4>No, like you know, like again like this isn't this

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<v Speaker 4>isn't my field of expertise. But it seems to me

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<v Speaker 4>that there are snags, there are unaccounted shortcomings in this approach,

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<v Speaker 4>whether you're looking at areas that are specifically affected by

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<v Speaker 4>dam so that isn't a fair representation of the global

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<v Speaker 4>rural population, right, areas where there's going to be dams

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<v Speaker 4>or areas where there is going to be water and

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<v Speaker 4>there's going to be already an abnormally large number of people.

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<v Speaker 4>So that kind of tracks with the data, it seems,

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<v Speaker 4>and like thirty five areas is really a niche area,

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<v Speaker 4>and especially when it's like yeah, like river based areas

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<v Speaker 4>thirty five across the global Like, that's that's not a

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<v Speaker 4>very in depth So you.

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<v Speaker 1>Want to bigger you like a big sample size, is

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<v Speaker 1>what you're saying. Steven Harder loves a big example.

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<v Speaker 3>Size.

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<v Speaker 4>The bigger the better. Absolutely, that's right, That's what I'm

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<v Speaker 4>all about here, right to know, Yeah, like and if

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<v Speaker 4>like and again like, I'm I can be an expert

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<v Speaker 4>in everything. I can be an expert in many things.

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<v Speaker 4>And if so, I rely on experts who actually have

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<v Speaker 4>dug into the material to know their shit. And if

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<v Speaker 4>the experts aren't convinced, then I find I'm like, I

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<v Speaker 4>trust them until they have when they when they have

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<v Speaker 4>good reason to, you know, draw a red flag around it,

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<v Speaker 4>then then that's I think is a great time to

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<v Speaker 4>draw more conclusions, not to start investigating, but to yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>let's let's get a more robust understanding.

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<v Speaker 3>Fair point, fair point. I have to have to hand

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<v Speaker 3>that to you.

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<v Speaker 1>So as a math teacher, of course, this article is

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<v Speaker 1>really like just gold for me.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>It was basically we're talking about people that messed up

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<v Speaker 1>the math because they were making incorrect assumptions. And I

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<v Speaker 1>love throwing those kind of problems out to my students

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<v Speaker 1>to not only show not only to practice the math

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<v Speaker 1>and then they have to use math to justify their arguments,

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<v Speaker 1>but then to realize that we all make assumptions in

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<v Speaker 1>all cases and so we need to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>we are aware of the assumptions that we're making, and

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<v Speaker 1>we need to test those assumptions. So here's a situation

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<v Speaker 1>where we had a lot of money and effort and

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<v Speaker 1>science has gone into things like predicting world population and

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<v Speaker 1>we discover a flaw in our system based off of

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<v Speaker 1>faulty assumptions. That is just the math teacher mother load

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<v Speaker 1>right there. It's just perfect learning opportunities. So I'll ask

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<v Speaker 1>Eli here first, So what lessons can we learn from this,

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<v Speaker 1>either generally about you know, being good scientists, or specifically

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<v Speaker 1>about this issue. What do you think we can learn here?

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<v Speaker 2>I think, in part, we can't always trust our measurements,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's either because you know, these international pop bands

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<v Speaker 2>are incorrect about the world population, or because language.

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<v Speaker 3>I can't trust an international pop band. Who can you trust?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm maybe maybe Josiah's lang Ritter. Maybe he's got the

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<v Speaker 2>right answer, but.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe he's got Grump backing him up.

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<v Speaker 2>Though well no, he he disagrees with Grump all right.

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<v Speaker 3>The discrepancy.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's what I think is when you find a

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<v Speaker 2>discrepancy between your data and other data, somebody got it wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't assume that it's not you. I think it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>just as it's just as plausible for it to be

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<v Speaker 2>you as it is for it to be the other guy.

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<v Speaker 2>And when it's you or everyone else for the past

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<v Speaker 2>several decades, you have to realize that it's more likely

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<v Speaker 2>for it to be you. That is wrong. But like

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<v Speaker 2>I said earlier, find why there's a discrepancy. Find like,

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<v Speaker 2>what what would I expect to see if there was

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<v Speaker 2>fifty percent more people on the earth? Then I think

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<v Speaker 2>that there are, And then go out and look for that.

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<v Speaker 2>And if you can't find that, you know, let's reconsider.

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<v Speaker 3>Right maybe or maybe ask me why we didn't find.

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<v Speaker 2>It exactly exactly? Why why wouldn't we find it? Is

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<v Speaker 2>there some reason we wouldn't have found that? Is there

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<v Speaker 2>something else that might that I might see in the result?

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<v Speaker 2>Like you, you can keep investigating it, but it's not

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<v Speaker 2>quite time yet to start making, you know, drawing conclusions

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<v Speaker 2>and like rerouting resources based on one stud.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Right, I think one of the themes that Eli

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<v Speaker 1>was just talking about is the idea of intellectual humility.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>We need to be open to the possibility that we've

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<v Speaker 1>made mistakes because our.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, human, we're human beings. We have egos, we

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<v Speaker 3>have predispositions, we have biases, and so forth. Steven, I

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<v Speaker 3>wonder if you could comment briefly on what what are

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<v Speaker 3>your thoughts on the role of intellectual humility and that

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<v Speaker 3>kind of thing in the scientific community and in just

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<v Speaker 3>in general as we as the human species learn about

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<v Speaker 3>our world and our universe. Yeah, just a tiny little

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<v Speaker 3>question there for you.

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<v Speaker 4>Great Like I one of the best parts about deconstructing

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<v Speaker 4>and stepping away from the faith is the humility that

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<v Speaker 4>I was able to tap into because when I was

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<v Speaker 4>a Christian, I didn't need to be too too, too

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<v Speaker 4>humble because I had all the motherfucking answers. Uh and yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>And that was and what was interesting about you know,

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<v Speaker 4>the looking at this article from a meta perspective is

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<v Speaker 4>how it reminded me of that that desire to be

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<v Speaker 4>to feel like, oh, yeah, I know something that other

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<v Speaker 4>people don't. I understand this world the way that the

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<v Speaker 4>world in a way that the rest of the world

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't understand. I'm a little bit special, right, And I

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<v Speaker 4>think that's what what makes an article heading like this

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<v Speaker 4>one extra alluring, extra appealing. It's just like I have

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<v Speaker 4>this information that what the rest of the world doesn't know,

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<v Speaker 4>like we've been doing this wrong the whole time. Like

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<v Speaker 4>I just as a sucker for that, And that was

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<v Speaker 4>a big draw for me, and and my spirituality was

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<v Speaker 4>just the fact that I had special wisdom. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>like humility and being able to understand why we're wrong

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<v Speaker 4>and is a huge thing. That's the only way that

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<v Speaker 4>we can move forward.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the way that you were phrasing that just

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<v Speaker 1>just triggered something in my brain. So I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>ask Eli this additional question here conspiracy theories, So how

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<v Speaker 1>can we link that We've been talking about intellectual humility.

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<v Speaker 1>Stephen was talking about having being privy to inside information

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<v Speaker 1>or having the inside scoop on the quote unquote real truth. DM,

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<v Speaker 1>how is this kind of thing do you think this

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<v Speaker 1>would be? Is this fuel for conspiracy theory or is

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<v Speaker 1>this going to maybe debunk a conspiracy theory or how

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<v Speaker 1>is that going to link in there?

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<v Speaker 2>I've already got one as soon as you said conspiracy theory.

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<v Speaker 2>Between then and now, I've got one, So yeah, absolutely,

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<v Speaker 2>like it could. I Mean I don't believe it, but

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<v Speaker 2>you can come up with one that easily the extra

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<v Speaker 2>four billion people are the ancient race of aliens that

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<v Speaker 2>built the pyramids and went underground to hide, and now

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<v Speaker 2>they're coming back up like humans naturally. That's why we

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<v Speaker 2>didn't find them over the past decades worth of data.

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<v Speaker 3>So yes, absolutely found to come up.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it seems like it takes very little excuse,

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<v Speaker 1>just a tiny little kernel of an idea and then

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<v Speaker 1>somebody's making conspiracy theory about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and archaeologists are like historians. Ten thousand years from now,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll find that I was the one that started that

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<v Speaker 2>because I'm the first one to say it on the internet.

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<v Speaker 2>All Right, I'm going to be responsible for I'm like.

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<v Speaker 3>Man, right, right, that's your legacy, Eli, right, there is.

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<v Speaker 2>Of all the things I've said. But you know, I think, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>it's absolutely it can be a breeding ground for conspiracy.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's just another reason people say, you know, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't trust scientists. Scientists have an agenda. Scientists are

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<v Speaker 2>controlled by their their benefactors. Donors is the word I

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<v Speaker 2>was looking for. I don't know how benefactors can to

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<v Speaker 2>me easier than donors, but it's this idea that the

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<v Speaker 2>scientific community is they or them or like the government

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<v Speaker 2>and whatever they are saying can't be trusted. So like

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<v Speaker 2>if if they are saying it's raining and you stick

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<v Speaker 2>your hand outside and you feel the rain, you're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be like, No, they're probably just you know, spraying water

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<v Speaker 2>on my house with a hose to make me think

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<v Speaker 2>it's raining, because I may believe anything except weather manipulation.

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<v Speaker 1>I think is the words you were looking for, their

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<v Speaker 1>weather manipulation. Yeah, because we know, of course that's a

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<v Speaker 1>thing now right.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they're changing my climate.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly as Okay, So Stephen, I wanted to Eli was

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<v Speaker 1>talking about how we might be undermining trust in in science,

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<v Speaker 1>or at the very least, giving ammunition to those who

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<v Speaker 1>want to foment that kind of distrust in science. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you think I mean, because because when I look at this,

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<v Speaker 1>I see that this as a as a strength of

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<v Speaker 1>the scientific process, the idea that we can correct ourselves.

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<v Speaker 1>And you were mentioning earlier about how you had this

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<v Speaker 1>unassailable you know, knowledge in your brain when when you

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<v Speaker 1>were religious, and I mean, how, how, how how does

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<v Speaker 1>that play into this? Is this going to be the

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<v Speaker 1>the crack in the in the dam that's going to

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<v Speaker 1>break and all science is going to come crumbling down.

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<v Speaker 1>Or is this just a reassurance and reaffirmation of the

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<v Speaker 1>strength of the scientific approach? Is this a Is this

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<v Speaker 1>a good or a bad thing for the scientific method

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<v Speaker 1>and for those of us that care about that.

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<v Speaker 4>I think any like the the system doesn't need to

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<v Speaker 4>be perfect. If there's if there are inconsistencies, if there's questions,

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<v Speaker 4>that signs that this system is working. It's when when

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<v Speaker 4>everything works out just accordingly, just right, just perfectly. That's

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<v Speaker 4>when flags need to be going up and saying like,

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<v Speaker 4>wait a minute, how do we falsify this? If everything

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<v Speaker 4>is going just right, something isn't right, that's a sign

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<v Speaker 4>of the matrix right there. Yeah, So I think no

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<v Speaker 4>like having being able to ask these questions. The only

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<v Speaker 4>way to the only way science gets better is through

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<v Speaker 4>more science, right right right, So yeah, bring on the

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<v Speaker 4>questions and no question is too hard, because that's like

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<v Speaker 4>we as a species are going to evolve and it's

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<v Speaker 4>going to be through these kind of processes.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I really like the way that they presented that in

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<v Speaker 1>the article itself. It wasn't a it wasn't a finger pointing,

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't a blame game. It was like here's what

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<v Speaker 1>we did, Here's what was wrong about it, Here's how

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<v Speaker 1>we can correct it. I mean, it was very practical

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<v Speaker 1>and very straightforward it. I didn't get the impression that

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<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of egos involved or anything like that.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it was just a straightforward problem solving approach,

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<v Speaker 1>which really appeals to to someone like me.

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<v Speaker 3>We have a little bit of time left.

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<v Speaker 1>I knew that this we were going to have a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit of time at the end of this segment here,

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<v Speaker 1>so I have an extra question prepared here. I want

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<v Speaker 1>us each to put some deep, deep thought into this.

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<v Speaker 3>This is very critical. So here's the question, from.

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<v Speaker 1>The standpoint of pure musicianship and skill with their instruments,

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<v Speaker 1>what is the greatest rock band of all time? Defend

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<v Speaker 1>your answer? Eli, the science guy.

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<v Speaker 4>Go done.

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<v Speaker 2>I already got it. I'm just going to go with

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<v Speaker 2>a scientific consensus, Queen, and I don't need because of

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<v Speaker 2>live aid, I don't need to justify that. But I

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<v Speaker 2>can justify it without live aid. So we have obviously, first,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, Freddie Mercury, if you're talking about mastery of

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<v Speaker 2>an instrument, this is a guy with a four octave

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<v Speaker 2>vocal range, which if he's not. I'm not confident enough

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<v Speaker 2>to say that he's the only singer in like the

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<v Speaker 2>last century or whatever that could do that. But if

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<v Speaker 2>he's not, he's like one of like five or something.

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<v Speaker 2>So that right there by itself, and not only he,

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<v Speaker 2>but the band itself has such a range of style

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<v Speaker 2>from like arena rock will rock you, to like opera

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<v Speaker 2>rock Bohemian rhapsody to like like proto Thrashers, and like, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Want Somebody to Love was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>disco or kind of like I don't really know. So

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<v Speaker 2>they have a range they have.

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<v Speaker 1>He did the Highlander a soundtrack, right, the Highlander soundtrack,

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<v Speaker 1>the whole thing all queen Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know. I haven't seen Highlanders, so uh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I am out of her. That's truth. There can be

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<v Speaker 2>only zero me. But additionally, sir uh Brian Howard May, Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>Sir Brian Howard May, PhD in astrophysics and Commander of

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<v Speaker 2>the British Empire. Uh is another title that he has

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<v Speaker 2>built his own guitar with his dad out of a

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<v Speaker 2>fireplace and a sewing needle. And that's like it's a simplification,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not like it's true, and uh then after

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<v Speaker 2>the band became famous, he then later was like, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna finish finish my PhD In astrophysics, which he put

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<v Speaker 2>on hold so that he could go be Brian May

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<v Speaker 2>of Queen. I don't know a lot about drums or

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<v Speaker 2>like rhythm.

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<v Speaker 1>Of Yah, and I noticed you're not a lot talking

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<v Speaker 1>a lot about the rhythm section here, so we gotta.

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<v Speaker 2>I I feel you know, I know that you know

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<v Speaker 2>each of the band members contributed to their songs. I

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<v Speaker 2>know that Roger Taylor wrote I'm in Love with My Car.

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<v Speaker 2>That was all him. He's got a pretty solid falsetto himself. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>powerful backing vocals for for Freddie Mercury, so that was

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<v Speaker 2>a good pairing. John Deacon wrote another one Bite Sadus

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<v Speaker 2>and I Want to Break Free. So two other fantastic

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<v Speaker 2>songs got tight bass lines. It's just they all they

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<v Speaker 2>they genre hopped they I think I think they were

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<v Speaker 2>masters of their instruments.

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<v Speaker 1>And the case strong case you make a very strong

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<v Speaker 1>casey lie you you got us out of the gate

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<v Speaker 1>with a big answer there, Steven, what are your thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>best rock band pure musicianship and skill with their instruments,

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<v Speaker 1>including vocals.

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<v Speaker 4>Like obviously the answer is the tragically Hip. But as

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<v Speaker 4>two Americans, you have no idea what I'm talking about,

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<v Speaker 4>So I'll try to speak in your language. The White Stripes,

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<v Speaker 4>Jack and Meg White, they're divorced and they're still in

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<v Speaker 4>a band together. That's huge. Meg she plays the drums

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<v Speaker 4>and she just focuses on like keeping a steady rhythm.

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<v Speaker 4>That's huge. And then Jack he plays guitar and other things,

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<v Speaker 4>and he also sings like.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm a big Jack White fan.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think the weak spot in the band,

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<v Speaker 1>if the if we would call it a weak spot,

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<v Speaker 1>I think is Meg. Of course, I think, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he's kind of the pulse there. Of course I could

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<v Speaker 1>be wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>I could be wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe the.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah right right right, Well, I'm gonna throw my answer

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<v Speaker 1>out there, and although I might, I'm on the verge

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<v Speaker 1>of changing my mind here after hearing you know, you can't.

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<v Speaker 1>It's hard to argue with Freddie Mercury. In fact, in

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<v Speaker 1>my book he has he is in the you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he has to be mentioned if you talk about best

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<v Speaker 1>musician on any instrument at all, I think if Freddie

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<v Speaker 1>Mercury is definitely in the discussion there, And of course

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<v Speaker 1>Brian Mays, no slouch, I would say rush, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>I think you know they're just you know, the holy,

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<v Speaker 1>the holy Trinity. Right, we got speaking of bodacious vocalists,

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<v Speaker 1>we got Geddy Lee with his very distinctive voice and

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<v Speaker 1>annoys the hell out of a lot of people. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know he's got he's got a lot of skill there.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, Freddie Mercury wasn't playing bass when he was singing,

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<v Speaker 1>although he would, you know, mess around with the piano

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit. But Geddy Lee's on vocals, on bass

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<v Speaker 1>and on keyboard, all at the same time.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And then of course al Alex Liifs is routinely brought

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<v Speaker 1>up when when discussing the top rock guitarists of all times.

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<v Speaker 1>He's got such a huge range and the master of

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<v Speaker 1>the of the lengthy solo. And so I love Alex Lifsen.

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<v Speaker 1>But of course you have your Freddie Mercury. I have

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<v Speaker 1>Neil Pert, and he is definitely a master musician, routinely

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<v Speaker 1>thrown out as possibly the best drummer of all time.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to hear about John Bonham today, but

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<v Speaker 1>Neil Pert was he just mastered. He you know, he

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<v Speaker 1>would learn different styles. He learned how to play jazz drums,

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<v Speaker 1>He learned how to play all different kinds of drums.

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<v Speaker 1>He would rehearse even on concert nights. He would rehearse

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<v Speaker 1>before concerts and so on. He would start working out

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<v Speaker 1>weeks and months before they went on tour, just so

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<v Speaker 1>he could have enough stamina. And my favorite Neil Pert

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<v Speaker 1>song ever was in it was I was during an

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<v Speaker 1>interview and they asked him, do you ever get sick

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<v Speaker 1>of playing Tom Sawyer? And he said, I never get

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<v Speaker 1>sick of playing Tom Sawyer because every once in a

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<v Speaker 1>while I play at per and I just love that.

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<v Speaker 1>It just totally summed up his attitude towards towards music

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<v Speaker 1>right there.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I love that. But you know, good effort,

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<v Speaker 3>good effort from Stevens.

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<v Speaker 1>The white stripes, you know, that's pretty damn good white

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<v Speaker 1>stripes there, Queen. Though you know you're you're definitely threatening

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<v Speaker 1>for that top seat. But I still think Rush might

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<v Speaker 1>might have pulled it out here. Let's hear it from

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<v Speaker 1>all of you out there. Leave a comment below with

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<v Speaker 1>what you think is the greatest band on pure musicianship

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<v Speaker 1>and skill with their instruments ever of all time