1 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,719 Speaker 1: Welcome to the gods Iye View podcast. I am your host, Trevor. 2 00:00:19,359 --> 00:00:24,079 How is everyone doing out there? You guys? This is crazy. 3 00:00:24,519 --> 00:00:29,839 I have like a series of legitimate interviews lined up 4 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,240 over the next couple of weeks. I don't know what's happening. 5 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:35,479 I'm not sure how I'm gonna do it. I might 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,799 need to just modify my entire personality because some of 7 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:45,399 these guys are some heavy hitters, and I'm living this 8 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,679 sort of secret double life where I'm semi anonymous on 9 00:00:49,759 --> 00:00:56,439 this show. So I'm comfortable just being myself. But I've 10 00:00:56,439 --> 00:01:01,840 been told many times that myself is not the best. Uh, 11 00:01:02,159 --> 00:01:04,920 the genuine version of myself is not the best, the 12 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,239 best version of myself, so to speak. No, I'm just 13 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:16,239 messing around. It's just people. Well, here's what's going on. 14 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,640 So we have a few interviews lined up with some uh, 15 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:25,400 some folks who have written some really just incredible research papers, 16 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:29,599 papers that, in my opinion, have really shaped the way 17 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:37,159 we look at consciousness. We also have a paleontologist coming on, 18 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,200 so I'm excited about that. But then we have some 19 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,040 real heavy hitters in the consciousness space and the orchestrated 20 00:01:45,079 --> 00:01:51,040 objective reduction space, which I'm casually fascinated by, as you know, 21 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:59,760 and the the neuronal microtubule as this like structure that's 22 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:07,200 so somehow scales its resonance. It it vibrates or it 23 00:02:07,239 --> 00:02:10,520 does it does a vibrator to the tubulent subunits oscillate. 24 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:14,439 I'm not sure, but let's just say it resonates and 25 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,919 it scales to this like mega sounds ridiculous. It's like 26 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:27,319 this large network of crystalline resonance structures inside your mind. 27 00:02:28,479 --> 00:02:30,639 And people suggest that there could be sort of a 28 00:02:30,759 --> 00:02:36,120 quantum basis to consciousness and that these structures are intimately involved. 29 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:43,000 It's really quite amazing. And I've seen some presentations and 30 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:46,840 I've read some papers and it's really it's way above 31 00:02:46,879 --> 00:02:49,960 my head. But it's fascinating. So we'll be we'll be 32 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,479 bringing some interesting folks on the next few weeks. Please 33 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,759 stay tuned. But yeah, I am just a little bit 34 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,879 nervous because we're kind of where getting operation over here. 35 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,520 You know, this is being ran out of my basement. 36 00:03:06,199 --> 00:03:09,240 So maybe we'll I might need a spruce to place up, 37 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,919 get some art on the wall, that kind of thing. Anyway, 38 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,919 So this will be our last our third and final 39 00:03:20,039 --> 00:03:24,840 installment for Deconstructing the Fall of Adam and Eve with 40 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,599 Alex O'Connor and Jonathan Pago Pago Pagot, I don't know. 41 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,960 Jonathan Pago is an Orthodox Christian. I believe in some 42 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:41,319 kind of academic Alex is a YouTuber, but he I 43 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,879 believe has a PhD in philosophy or something, I'm not sure, 44 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:50,400 from Oxford. A couple of real smart folks, Alex playing 45 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:57,000 the atheist or the agnostic, Jonathan playing the Christian. And 46 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,800 it's been interesting. It's been interesting watching John things take 47 00:04:01,879 --> 00:04:06,639 on this. I think I think Alex's criticisms are pretty 48 00:04:06,639 --> 00:04:11,120 difficult to contend with intellectually. You know, at some point 49 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:13,039 you do just kind of have to say, like, well, 50 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:17,839 I don't know, I just I kind of feel like 51 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,600 I can see what the message is and I just 52 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,720 believe it. You know. It's tough. It's tough to contend 53 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,759 with this intellectually. So we'll see, we'll see how this 54 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:34,160 part three goes. Interestingly, speaking of Orthodox Christianity, there is 55 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,480 a there's a there's a big Orthodox church about forty 56 00:04:38,519 --> 00:04:43,079 five minutes from my house and the the Father There 57 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,199 is a pretty well known media personality. He does a 58 00:04:48,199 --> 00:04:53,439 lot of does a lot of interviews promoting Orthodox Christianity 59 00:04:53,560 --> 00:05:00,199 and different you know, he has like a publishing company 60 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,560 and different things, and I really like him. He seems 61 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:08,160 very consistent. Everything he says, you know, more or less 62 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,079 seems to make sense, which is nice. Anyway, they're opening 63 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,079 up a church in my town. They're opening up a 64 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:17,839 second location, so I kind of want to check it out. 65 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,720 I'll check it out and report back to you guys. 66 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:24,079 Let you know. Anyway, So let's just jump right in. 67 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,399 So you know, we're going to start off with Alex 68 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,720 is going to be just criticizing this idea of like 69 00:05:29,879 --> 00:05:33,519 why is the serpent there? And why are Adam and 70 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,560 Eve and the serpent? Why are they intermingled? Why are 71 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:44,240 they accessible to the serpent? It is a reasonable question. 72 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,319 It sort of implies that the serpent, for whatever reason, 73 00:05:48,399 --> 00:05:51,399 had to be there, whatever the serpent represents, you know, 74 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,600 in this story. Otherwise you would have to propose that 75 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:03,199 God is limited, or that God is I don't know 76 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,199 what testing Adam and Eve I suppose, but that seems 77 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,959 odd in the context of them not having the knowledge 78 00:06:09,959 --> 00:06:12,759 of good and evil yet, So maybe it's why is 79 00:06:12,759 --> 00:06:17,600 he just testing their ability to listen these creatures that 80 00:06:17,639 --> 00:06:23,480 are just you know, not even self aware yet they're 81 00:06:23,519 --> 00:06:27,399 almost like animals, except they're made in God's image, so 82 00:06:27,439 --> 00:06:29,639 you almost you kind of are forced to conclude almost 83 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,800 that like, no, there's a reason why the serpent is there. 84 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,120 It has to be there for some reason, and so 85 00:06:35,759 --> 00:06:37,839 they'll briefly just explore that, and they're going to shift 86 00:06:37,959 --> 00:06:44,240 topics into the gnostic interpretation in Jesus's role in Eden, 87 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,160 and if we're still enjoying it, then in twenty minutes 88 00:06:50,199 --> 00:06:51,920 we may go further. Or he made us wrap up 89 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:53,079 the series. Here we go. 90 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, God, God creates the Garden of Eden, and even 91 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,720 if for some reason, the serpent needs to be in there, 92 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,439 like okay, you know, put this open, you know, a 93 00:07:01,519 --> 00:07:03,639 thousand miles away, so that by the time it finally, 94 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:06,319 you know, walks its way across the garden and finds 95 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,199 Adam and Eve, they've already been given that. It's already 96 00:07:08,199 --> 00:07:10,199 the Sabbath, they've already be given the tritonology and evil 97 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:12,040 and there's nothing they can do, right. It just seems 98 00:07:12,079 --> 00:07:14,839 it seems totally strange to me, Like I say, this 99 00:07:14,879 --> 00:07:16,240 is this is what I was getting out earlier when 100 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:17,800 I say that if you just say this is the 101 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,120 way the world is, and I'm offering a mythological, you know, 102 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,560 account of the world, fine, Yeah, the serpent, you know, 103 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,319 convinces Adam and Eve that's what happened. But if you believe, 104 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:29,879 as a Christian that God sort of designs this world. 105 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:33,000 God creates this world, and maybe he's limited in some 106 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,639 respect as to what he can do by the laws 107 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:41,040 of necessity. Maybe being itself requires order and chaos, so 108 00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:43,439 you need the chaos, right, It doesn't seem obvious to 109 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,680 me that it needed to be such that this sort 110 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,000 of horrible series of events is inaugurated by Adam and Eve. 111 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:51,560 In fact, it seems like it could have been relatively 112 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,120 easily avoided had the snake just been you know, just 113 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,360 put a wall between the snake and Adam and Eve, 114 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,000 or you know, like like some anything, even even God 115 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,199 could just warn them. God could say, oh, by the way, 116 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,120 there's this serpent in the garden. You should watch out 117 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,160 for him. You know, he's a crafty one. It just 118 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,680 seems to me like a like a very strange thing 119 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:14,519 to just say either, well, it had to be that 120 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,560 way or well it just was that way, and there's 121 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,600 sort of nothing more interesting to ask about. I guess 122 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,480 one I'm raising now is a moral object, which is 123 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,399 what I usually do with the Garden of Beaten But like, like, 124 00:08:24,959 --> 00:08:28,319 why on earth would would God sort of permit that 125 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,560 or allow that or create that, you know what I mean? 126 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,279 And this is why, by the way, I was so 127 00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:36,519 interested in this interpretation of Genesis that sees the serpent 128 00:08:36,519 --> 00:08:39,440 as the hero, because you know, I mentioned this, Sir 129 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:42,799 Jordan Peterson, This this apocryphal gospel, the Testimony of Truth, 130 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,720 And anytime I bring up the apocryphal Gospels, a lot 131 00:08:45,759 --> 00:08:47,960 of Christians get get angry at me because they seem 132 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,720 to think that I'm somehow endorsing it or thinking that 133 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:52,639 this is the true account. I don't even believe that 134 00:08:52,639 --> 00:08:55,799 the canonical accounts, the canonical Gospels a true account, though, 135 00:08:55,799 --> 00:08:57,639 would be very strange if I believe the apocryphal ones. 136 00:08:57,639 --> 00:09:01,320 But I found it interesting that early Christians, some early Christians, 137 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,799 did believe this, this Testimony of Truth. It reads the 138 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,759 story of Genesis and says, what kind of God is this? 139 00:09:07,039 --> 00:09:09,320 This jealous God who lies to Adam and Eve about 140 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,480 what's going to happen to them, and it identifies the 141 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:15,519 serpent not with Satan but with Christ and says that 142 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,720 what's happening here is you've got that. And in the 143 00:09:17,759 --> 00:09:21,320 Gnostic theology, the material world is created by this sort 144 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,519 of evil or incompetent demiurge. So you've got this material 145 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,159 world and it's got its grass and it's trees, and 146 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,960 it's it's it's you know, it's it's sort of evil whatever. 147 00:09:30,039 --> 00:09:33,159 And and human beings are sort of made out of 148 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,559 the dust. They're made out of the evil stuff. You know. 149 00:09:35,759 --> 00:09:37,919 The really good stuff is spirit. The really good stuff 150 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,039 is like soul and spirit and morality and that kind 151 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,559 of stuff. And so these these. 152 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,759 Speaker 1: Just a quick pause. This is a very long question. 153 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,279 If I if I invited guests on the show and 154 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,919 I speak for this long, please email me to shut up. 155 00:09:53,919 --> 00:09:57,080 Although I shouldn't say that, because I probably will. I'll 156 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,639 be geeking out anyway. It's just interesting, you know, I 157 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,799 think a lot of times we think of objections to 158 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,919 certain stories in the Bible as being like a very 159 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:20,960 modern phenomenon, and that's just not true. You know, these topics, 160 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,399 these questions have been debated and argued over forever and 161 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,080 quite you know, dramatically in the early Christian Church, very 162 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,279 early Christian Church. I mean a few of these texts 163 00:10:37,039 --> 00:10:39,360 from these groups of Christians that he's mentioning kind of 164 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,919 collectively called gnostic. The word means a lot of different things. 165 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,559 I mean, the word literally means knowledge, but in reference 166 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,960 to groups of people who we are referring to when 167 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,720 we say gnostic, it means many different things. But some 168 00:10:53,759 --> 00:10:56,240 of these texts that they would go on to adopt, 169 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,679 like the Gospel of Thomas, they're pretty much contemporary with 170 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,679 the Gospel of Mark and Luke. I think, I think 171 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:10,360 most scholars believe they're they're not written by the individuals 172 00:11:10,399 --> 00:11:14,759 whose name they bear. But a lot of you know, 173 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,159 New Testament scholars think the same thing about the actual Gospel. 174 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,120 So it's it's really tough to know. I mean, it's 175 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:24,000 tough to say. So this is not like a modern phenomenon. 176 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:29,039 I mean Marcianism, which was a type of gnosticism that 177 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,559 really only wanted to include the Gospel of Luke in 178 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:39,639 the Bible. This this was very early, very early, and 179 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,320 he had a lot of support the same is it 180 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:46,120 Valentine Valentinis or Valentinius, I forget his name, another one 181 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:51,159 of these guys. Really, you know, the only reason that 182 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:57,039 their popularity dwindled, as far as I know, is that Polycarp, 183 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,759 who's the last living person to John the Apostle, the 184 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:05,639 beloved Apostle, made a pilgrimage to Rome in his late 185 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,960 life and just explained to them that they were wrong. 186 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,360 And it was because I'm in a position to know, 187 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,879 you know, I've spent a lot of time speaking with 188 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,200 the actual disciples of Jesus, and so, you know, personally, 189 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,559 for me, I think that's a good thing that that happened. 190 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,200 But I know a lot of people feel differently. This 191 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:31,240 is a very like hot topic, particularly just I think 192 00:12:31,519 --> 00:12:33,399 a lot of it comes from a lot of anti 193 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:40,039 Catholic sentiment, especially you know, during that time, like the 194 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,759 time of Athenacius, and then much later, you know, all 195 00:12:44,759 --> 00:12:48,679 the way up into like the Roman Inquisition. You know, 196 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:54,039 the Catholic pr has been pretty thoroughly beat down. I 197 00:12:54,039 --> 00:12:56,559 think a lot of it's probably overblown. But I also 198 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,000 think they burned people alive, you know, So it's it's 199 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,879 a mixed bag, you know, like all institutions over that 200 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,320 have lasted thousands of years. I'm sure you can find 201 00:13:08,799 --> 00:13:11,600 lots of good and lots of bad. So let's see, 202 00:13:11,639 --> 00:13:16,000 let's see this modern rehashing of it of us, you know, 203 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:17,639 ancient terracy. 204 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,159 Speaker 2: These humans are there, but they don't have this knowledge 205 00:13:21,159 --> 00:13:23,200 of good and evil, which is which is what life's 206 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,600 really about. Man. And so the serpent sort of sneaks 207 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,320 into this garden. And because God is the creator God, 208 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,279 for the serpent to even be there in the first place, 209 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:35,960 the serpent must have some kind of like power, It 210 00:13:36,039 --> 00:13:38,080 must have some kind of intelligence, it must have some 211 00:13:38,159 --> 00:13:41,720 kind of like you know, awesome ability to put itself 212 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:43,559 in there, in the same way that like, you know, 213 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:48,519 Athena disguises herself as a slave to appear to Odysseus 214 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,759 or whatever it is that you know happens in the Odyssey. Yeah, 215 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,639 these gods sort of sort of, these these more intelligent 216 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,919 gods sort of sneaking the way around the evil and 217 00:13:57,159 --> 00:13:59,879 getting their message into the world. So so thisnostic gospel 218 00:13:59,879 --> 00:14:02,320 thing that it's it's Jesus who takes the form with 219 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,600 the snake, goes up to Eve and says, listen, like 220 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:07,799 you've you've been told all this all this stuff. But but no, no, no. 221 00:14:08,159 --> 00:14:10,759 If you want to be like God, if you want 222 00:14:10,759 --> 00:14:12,159 the knowledge of good and evil, if you want to 223 00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:15,000 be like what you're supposed to be, which is spiritual, 224 00:14:15,039 --> 00:14:17,240 knowledgeable beings, then you should eat the fruit. And then 225 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,159 God just gets really angry and banishes them like that 226 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:21,879 to me, given one I've just said about the fact 227 00:14:21,879 --> 00:14:24,200 that God, God didn't need to do this, He didn't 228 00:14:24,279 --> 00:14:28,840 need to to condemn Adam and Eve in this way. 229 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,679 Like look, I'm not saying that's a true account of Genesis, 230 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:33,480 but I'm saying make as much sense to me as the. 231 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 3: Other whole I hope that I'm saying. So let's let's 232 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,919 unpack that. It's unpacked. It's not that hard to unpack. 233 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,879 Speaker 2: So, but by the way, just before you do, it's 234 00:14:41,879 --> 00:14:44,919 important to say that that word you mentioned earlier, and 235 00:14:44,919 --> 00:14:50,840 and and emphasize this word shrewd or u or subtle 236 00:14:51,559 --> 00:14:54,720 or crafty, which the serpent is introduced as the serpent 237 00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:57,799 is more, you know, crafty or shrewd. If you look 238 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,679 at the Hebrew word aram, and you how it's used 239 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,120 elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible, all throughout Proverbs and Psalms. 240 00:15:04,159 --> 00:15:08,519 The same word is translated as sensible or prudent. And 241 00:15:08,559 --> 00:15:10,320 so there's a reading of this text which says that 242 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,279 the serpent is more sensible than any of the other 243 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,759 beasts that God has created. And it's this sensible serpent 244 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:18,600 who tells out of any of the truth, you know 245 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:18,960 what I mean? 246 00:15:19,399 --> 00:15:21,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, well it is that it is in some ways 247 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:24,039 you could say that in this case, the way he's 248 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:29,279 the serpent is described is something maybe the being in 249 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,480 the in the the animal that is the closest to man. Right, 250 00:15:32,559 --> 00:15:35,279 So Saint John Christ system says that it says something 251 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,879 like the serpent was like a dog in the garden, 252 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,000 like he was the closest being to man. He was 253 00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:44,759 the one that is the most the most akin to man. 254 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,639 And so that is why in some ways it would 255 00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:53,080 be the being that would more more easily influence from below, 256 00:15:53,279 --> 00:15:56,759 you know, the human. So if you take the Gnostic 257 00:15:57,039 --> 00:16:00,759 the Gnostic Gospels as as an example, you know, you 258 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:06,399 you have this problem, like again, which is the idea 259 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,919 that the source of the world is evil is a 260 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,559 big problem. Like it's that that's a huge metaphysical problem 261 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:18,080 if you take that on, if you take on the 262 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:22,240 fact that the very origin of reality is bad and 263 00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:29,440 that material. Yeah, all of all of created reality is bad. 264 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,679 Down the line from that are very dark things, you know, 265 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:36,519 and you know and the Gnostics embrace those very dark 266 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:40,799 things too, you know. They you you end up with 267 00:16:40,879 --> 00:16:43,159 this idea that you have to escape the world, right, 268 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,440 you constantly just have to escape it. You don't have to, 269 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,000 you're not supposed to like live live life. You have 270 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,039 to escape escape this reality. And then what what that 271 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,360 will lead to is something like caste system. Like a 272 00:16:55,399 --> 00:17:00,440 cast system is a good example of the contict of 273 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,400 gnosticism on the world, which is that you identify a 274 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:07,200 hierarchy and then you identify all that which is below 275 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,440 in the hierarchy is bad and all that which is 276 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,000 above in the hierarchy as good because it's the closest 277 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,759 to heaven. It's the one that gives order to all 278 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:18,240 the lower the lower aspects and that but the lower 279 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:20,960 you get, the more evil you are. And then you 280 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,519 so then you end up with these very dark, dark 281 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:29,640 implications of what of what gnostic type thinking does, like 282 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,319 this idea that that the world is maya that it's 283 00:17:32,319 --> 00:17:34,799 an illusion that we have to escape. That leads to 284 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,799 things like cast systems like it's one example. There are 285 00:17:37,839 --> 00:17:39,480 other examples of what it can lead to, not just 286 00:17:39,519 --> 00:17:41,720 that one can lead to other things. It can lead 287 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,279 to For example, in the Gospel of Thomas where at 288 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:47,440 the end, you know, Christ tells Mary Magdalene that in 289 00:17:47,519 --> 00:17:49,079 order for her to be safe, she has to become 290 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,799 like a man, because the man is better, because he's 291 00:17:54,559 --> 00:17:56,839 you know, he's above and the woman is below. And 292 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,960 therefore the woman has to become like a man in 293 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:02,839 order to get close. Should have it. Yeah, but that's 294 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,599 the world that isn't described in Genesis like it's God. 295 00:18:05,599 --> 00:18:09,000 When God, all things are good. 296 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,319 Speaker 1: So I think alex is probably not going to find 297 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:16,960 this type of argument compelling, and I kind of get that, 298 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,640 But I do think there is something to be said 299 00:18:20,839 --> 00:18:25,200 for the fruits of different beliefs. You know, this is 300 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,000 a biblical principle, of course, you know that you'll know 301 00:18:28,079 --> 00:18:32,720 them by their fruits. And yeah, there is something about 302 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:36,559 belief that the material world is evil or or you know, 303 00:18:37,079 --> 00:18:43,279 systems that aren't gnostic like Hinduism or Buddhism or let's 304 00:18:43,279 --> 00:18:46,160 just say Hinduism for now. With these belief in the 305 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:54,200 in in rebirth, you know, these cycles, it does lead 306 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:58,640 to pretty horrible cast systems. And this is not a 307 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:05,480 trivial thing. You know. My dad went to India once 308 00:19:05,599 --> 00:19:11,559 and there was this woman like bent over and half sweeping. 309 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,960 She had this short little broom that was like way 310 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,119 too short for her, like, and she was sweeping behind 311 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,599 them as they walked. He was like an honored guest, 312 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,960 you know. And she dropped her broom and she was 313 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,880 struggling to pick it up, and my dad leaned over 314 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,200 to pick it up for her, and he was kind 315 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,119 of like scolded, and he was like, no, she's she's untouchable. 316 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,559 You know. This was the cast she belonged to. It 317 00:19:36,599 --> 00:19:39,880 was the untouchables. And then there's like the Brahmin and 318 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,839 this and then that, and there's also there's just all 319 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,119 sorts of weird things that come out of these systems. 320 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:50,680 Like I don't know, I mean, people would probably say 321 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:57,079 the same thing about Christianity, like people who are skeptical 322 00:19:57,759 --> 00:20:03,160 of Christianity. But the problem is, like I I find 323 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:06,279 that often when people criticize Christianity, they tend to criticize 324 00:20:06,279 --> 00:20:11,839 the institution. And it's like, okay, fine, but let's just 325 00:20:12,079 --> 00:20:16,599 compare like what what do what does our what does 326 00:20:16,599 --> 00:20:22,559 it the base text or the you know, the church 327 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,680 that Jesus established on earth, Like what do they say, 328 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,519 like not like what does your uncle Tony say right 329 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,119 about Catholicism because he's a Catholic, Or what does your 330 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,039 aunt who's an Episcopalian or whatever a Lutheran say? Like 331 00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:42,400 what what do the actual those institute, like the the 332 00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:47,839 actual like at their best, what they're publicly saying that 333 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,920 they're aspiring to be their ideal, their foundational principles. What 334 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,680 are those? So I think it's kind of good to 335 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:01,119 prepare best to best, you know, and you know the 336 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,440 cast systems are not like this hidden thing that happens 337 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,240 in only back rooms without anyone knowing. This is like 338 00:21:08,319 --> 00:21:12,799 this is stated, this is open, and you know, the 339 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:17,039 burning of thousands and thousands of bodies so that it's 340 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,559 like ashy and the river is filled with ash and 341 00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:24,599 ancient practices of women be having to be burned alive 342 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,759 when their husbands died. Like yeah, I mean you could 343 00:21:28,799 --> 00:21:31,400 do kind of the same thing for Christianity. But you know, 344 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,880 if you say, what, okay, what does the book actually say? 345 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,160 Like it says, okay, love your neighbor, treat them like 346 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,640 as you would want to be treated and I get 347 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,000 there's stuff like that and other religions too, but I 348 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:46,799 don't know. I just I do think there is something 349 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,880 to this idea that everything we see is evil and 350 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,160 we must escape it. It's like, oh, I don't know. 351 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,799 It's hard for me to really wrap my head around, 352 00:21:57,839 --> 00:22:00,119 like I get, I get. You know that Satan is 353 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,039 the god of this world. There is evil, don't get 354 00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:07,720 me wrong, but it's all evil. Really, I don't know. 355 00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:14,119 It seems cynical. Although I will say gnostic ideas make 356 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,880 great movies. You know, the Truman Show, the Matrix great movies, 357 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,359 So I'll give them that. 358 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 3: And that's a different it's a whole different cosmology and 359 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,880 everything about it is different once you start with that 360 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,519 premise of the evil demiurge creator. 361 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:32,559 Speaker 2: I agree with that that it's definitely significant, but the 362 00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:35,920 idea that well, So if this. 363 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,599 Speaker 3: Then tells if a serpent comes and tells Adam and 364 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:45,359 Eve a better solution, where does that come from? Like 365 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,160 where does the better solution come from? If the origin 366 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,599 of the world is of the order, the created world 367 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,119 is evil, you know, where how can I say this? 368 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 1: It's like. 369 00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:01,839 Speaker 3: It's always about accounting for the gap between. It's always 370 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,680 about accounting for the gap between the sin and the purpose, right, 371 00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:08,400 and so you have something from below, the serpent that 372 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,960 comes and then proposes a solution to you, and so 373 00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:15,720 that solution will be a revolutionary solution. So we could 374 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,480 actually think about like there are two forms of mythology 375 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,960 in the world, like in terms of there are more, 376 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,359 but we could just for this purpose, we could say 377 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,920 that there are two types of mythologies. They're one which 378 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,359 establishes an orderly procession of being from above down below, 379 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,920 and that this is there's a there's an orderly procession, 380 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,759 and that things you know, fall down from their identities 381 00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:39,839 and that they all function together. Then you have a 382 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,839 revolutionary trope. You have the idea that that which is 383 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,400 below has to come up and take that which is above. 384 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,440 And you can see, like if you compare the cosmogony 385 00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:53,880 the theogony Hessian's theogony to the creation narrative in scripture, 386 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,440 you can actually see the difference between the two. Right, 387 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,319 where God creates the world with name with order within tation, 388 00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:05,240 and the world possesses orderly down from this heavenly influence. 389 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,519 And then you have another one which is basically castraight 390 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,279 my father, you know, and then and then having to 391 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:19,200 devour my children, and this revolutionary process of trying to 392 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,240 get from above like I'm gonna that Heaven is a tyrant. 393 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,359 Heaven is evil, that which comes all the order, all 394 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,599 the processes, all the patterns. They are forms of oppression. 395 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:32,880 And I have to free myself from that oppression. And 396 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,079 so I go up and I take the fire from 397 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,160 the gods. I castraight my father. I do all these 398 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,160 things that are there to take power on myself. And 399 00:24:42,599 --> 00:24:46,559 those two have to those two structures like of storytelling 400 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,279 or of understanding the world they have. They have they 401 00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:54,160 have consequences. So if you see one in a certain 402 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,400 way and you see it one in the other way, 403 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,039 they have they have different They have different worlds that 404 00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:00,960 they that they create and that they make happen. 405 00:25:02,079 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel I feel obliged to offer a sort 406 00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:09,440 of limp defense of the Gnostic theology, not because I 407 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,640 am myself a Gnostic, but because I think it's perhaps 408 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,480 a little unfair the treatment that you're giving to it. 409 00:25:13,519 --> 00:25:15,599 I mean, I understand what you mean. And Jordan Peterson 410 00:25:15,599 --> 00:25:17,559 said the same thing to me. He said, well, sort 411 00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:20,599 of alluded to it by saying, the problem with narcissism 412 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,880 is it condemns the material world, and that's a problem. 413 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,599 And we didn't really I didn't want to go down 414 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:27,920 the rabbit whole at the time. But what you just 415 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,880 said there you identify two things. You said, here are 416 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,160 two examples of what it can lead to believing. This 417 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:36,359 is the idea that the material world is somehow either 418 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:42,920 evil or bad, or incompetently or incompletely produced. The problem 419 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,240 with that is that it leads to something like a 420 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:46,640 caste system. And the problem with that is it leads. 421 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: Oh boy, I'm about to get torn up. Should have 422 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:51,200 just listened. 423 00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:53,839 Speaker 2: Things like in the Gospel of Thomas, you know, man 424 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,640 over the woman. I would say the opposite is true. 425 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,359 I would say that the idea that what you are 426 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,480 as fundamentally is a spiritual being who sort of trapped 427 00:26:05,599 --> 00:26:09,079 in this physical condition and you need to escape. For 428 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,759 someone who believes that, if you look at sort of 429 00:26:11,839 --> 00:26:15,160 different human beings being treated differently based on their physical characteristics, 430 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,960 the gnostics would say, well, of course they're sort of 431 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,319 battling it out over skin color because they're sort of 432 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,960 constrained by the material world. They think that those kinds 433 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,440 of things matter. If only they understood that the truth 434 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,920 of the world is in the things that you know 435 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,119 and your spiritual being and got nothing to do with 436 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,960 your physical characteristics, they'd abandon this, this whole caste system altogether. 437 00:26:34,279 --> 00:26:36,759 In other words, I mean, think about the racist myth 438 00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:39,799 that was pedaled that. I think it's something to do 439 00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:43,480 with different races being different descendants of Adam and Eve. 440 00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:45,799 The idea that you know, that non white people are 441 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:49,359 the descendants of Cain, That the idea that like sort 442 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,079 of this is where we get our racial divisions, and 443 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,119 because of their sort of origins were all sort of 444 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:59,920 separate like people. You know, American evangelicals used this physical 445 00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:06,759 delineation of races as a sort of theological way to 446 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,680 justify racism. Now, I don't think that's theologically literate. I 447 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,680 don't think that that's appropriate. What I'm saying is it 448 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,559 can clearly be done whether you're an ostic or not. 449 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,400 And arguably, to me, the gnostic who says the thing 450 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,319 that matters is that you are a spiritual being constrained 451 00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:22,720 in a physical creature is far more akin to the 452 00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:26,559 idea that actually all people are sort of spiritual beings 453 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:28,640 made in the image of the true God, that is Jesus, 454 00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:35,799 and all of this physical characteristic stuff is pogwash. Yeah versus. 455 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,799 Speaker 1: I mean, this is sort of but all Christians are 456 00:27:39,839 --> 00:27:44,160 supposed to believe, right, I mean, there is no Jew 457 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,039 or Greek. There is no Jew or gentile, slave or free. 458 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,920 This is you know, treat others how you want to 459 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,799 be treated. This is really this is what it says. So, 460 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,039 I mean, I don't know, I'm not sure if this 461 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,440 is really an interesting distinction. 462 00:27:56,559 --> 00:27:59,839 Speaker 2: But let's continue the orthodox Christiany who says no, no, 463 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:03,519 you are a physical creature. Those physical characteristics are part 464 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:05,680 of who you are. The other example that you gave 465 00:28:05,799 --> 00:28:08,039 was sort of the Gospel of Thomas and making Mary 466 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:10,200 Magdalen into a into a man, which is one of 467 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,319 the most bizarre parts of the Gnostic gospels. But that 468 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,720 the objection that this is a sort of ordering of 469 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,240 the man above the woman. I mean, I won't need 470 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:21,200 to point you to the to the myriad examples in 471 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,559 the Letters of Paul that do exactly the same thing, 472 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,559 making man sort of over the woman, telling women not 473 00:28:28,599 --> 00:28:30,640 to speak in church, saying it's disgraceful them to ask 474 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,480 questions and they should go home and ask their husbands. 475 00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:35,519 In other words, like everything you just said about the 476 00:28:35,559 --> 00:28:37,200 sort of Gnostic tradition, well look what it leads to. 477 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:38,960 I'm like, not only can it lead to that in 478 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,799 the Orthodox Christian tradition, but it has done as well. 479 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,319 And so it doesn't seem obvious to me that that's 480 00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:47,240 a good reason to reject noscissism. And even if it were, 481 00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:50,640 even if it were that this led to some moral problems, 482 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,319 that wouldn't be to say that it's untrue, and as 483 00:28:54,359 --> 00:28:57,279 well as that, it wouldn't make it a worse account 484 00:28:57,319 --> 00:29:00,200 specifically of this genesis story, of the Genesis story, that 485 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,400 that you've got the sort of creator of the material world, 486 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,240 seemingly inexplicably introducing this serpent, and the serpent is the 487 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,799 one who's who, like you said before, unlike all the 488 00:29:09,799 --> 00:29:12,279 other beasts, there's something specially about the serpent. The serpent 489 00:29:12,319 --> 00:29:15,559 can speak, The serpent has this thing has this sort 490 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:19,319 of you know, godlike propensity for sort of language and 491 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,960 understanding and probably knowledge of good and evil as well, 492 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,440 which which again for the Gnostics would say, yeah, that's 493 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,960 because it was a divine being who was also in 494 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,240 the guarden of the Veeden, the true, good, divine being 495 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,240 that was trying to sort of bring this wisdom to 496 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,920 to Adam and Eve. So again I want to emphasize 497 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,400 that I'm not saying that this is you know, true 498 00:29:36,759 --> 00:29:38,400 or even the best account of Genesis. But I don't 499 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,559 think it should just be sort of, you know, handwaved away, 500 00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:42,759 as so many often do. I'm not saying you're doing 501 00:29:42,759 --> 00:29:44,039 that there, but a lot of people. 502 00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I definitely don't want I take I take 503 00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:48,680 it very seriously. And okay, so let me go a 504 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,759 lot a little ways along with you to show you 505 00:29:50,799 --> 00:29:53,960 that I take it very seriously, which is there's a 506 00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:57,319 really I can understand why people would say something like 507 00:29:57,519 --> 00:30:01,720 that the serpent is Christ. Know, it's not even from 508 00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:05,440 the Gospel themselves. There is some things in there that 509 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,359 can make you understand that if you can see with 510 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,200 the structure of the story. Because because Jesus. 511 00:30:10,039 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: Actually quick quick interlude, you know, one interesting thing and 512 00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:16,720 one thing I do here kind of pointing to this 513 00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:19,200 idea might need to wrap up soon. I'm getting in 514 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,519 a bunch of emails at work, but one interesting thing 515 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:27,039 I hear is that Jesus is likened to a serpent. 516 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,759 At other points in the Bible. You know, there's there's 517 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,640 references to old things that to things that happen in 518 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,079 the Old Testament and the Gospel. You know, like Jesus says, 519 00:30:39,119 --> 00:30:43,519 just like he references the sign of Jonah, the idea 520 00:30:43,559 --> 00:30:46,240 that he will go down into the underworld for three 521 00:30:46,319 --> 00:30:48,680 days and then return like as Jonah did, you know 522 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:54,200 in a whale, And he also references, you know, just 523 00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:57,160 I forget the exact words in the book, but something 524 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,039 along the lines of just as you know, the Israelites 525 00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:07,920 hoisted the serpent on a staff, so too must the 526 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,839 son of Man be lifted up or whatever. And it's 527 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,960 a reference to this point in I think Exodus, I 528 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:22,920 guess where the the Israelites are being plagued by serpents 529 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:29,279 by snakes, and God instructs them to put the snake 530 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,039 up on a staff and stare at it, to confront it. 531 00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:39,039 And you know this is this is generally interpreted to 532 00:31:39,079 --> 00:31:45,039 be like you must face that which ails you. You know, 533 00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:48,680 you must confront it. And it's an interesting symbol for 534 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:53,039 Jesus because what Jesus faces and conquers when he's lifted 535 00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:55,160 up on the on the on the tree, on the 536 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:00,759 on the cross is death. You know. He is lifted 537 00:32:00,839 --> 00:32:05,400 up like that snake was, and everyone's looking at him. 538 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,000 Some people are happy it's happening to him. Some people 539 00:32:09,039 --> 00:32:17,319 are devastated. It's just tragedy. And by facing death, he 540 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,640 defeats it. This is sort of the symbolism, but that 541 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,640 this is sort of used as like a tool like 542 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,640 see look, he's being compared to a serpent. That that 543 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,440 does very little for me because he's referencing all sorts 544 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,880 of things that happened in the Old Testament. But I 545 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,440 only bring that up because I do find it funny. 546 00:32:36,759 --> 00:32:40,160 So that symbol, the staff with a serpent a snake 547 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:46,119 on it is a medical symbol. Should google what it's called, 548 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:53,400 uh raw rod of aeplis, I guess. But what's funny 549 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,440 is often hospitals and I've even seen it on an 550 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:06,200 ambulance is use the caducius, which is two snakes wrapped 551 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,279 around a staff with wings. And this is the symbol 552 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:17,599 of commerce and negotiation, which is so funny because that's 553 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,759 all healthcare is now, you know. And this was the 554 00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:25,240 staff of Hermes or Mercury. Some people even say even 555 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,640 say it has like a worse connotation, like it's about 556 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:36,599 like commerce crime, like like theft, which is kind of 557 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,680 hilarious given the context of modern medicine. But all right, 558 00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:44,559 let's continue. I got to say, you know, I like Jonathan, 559 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,880 but I just I don't think this is the right 560 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,640 environment for his kind of for his style. You know, 561 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:57,079 I can totally see why him and Jordan Peterson are friends. 562 00:33:57,079 --> 00:34:02,559 They love the symbolism, they love the abstraction. You know, 563 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:07,640 Alex O'Connor is taking a much more straightforward read of 564 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,719 the text and is I just don't think you're going 565 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,599 to be able to have a super productive argument. But 566 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:16,920 I still think it's interesting. Let's play another few minutes 567 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:18,719 and then we'll wrap up. 568 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,119 Speaker 3: He fines himself in that very position. So the text 569 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:26,199 in the gospel is allude to the fact that Jesus 570 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,480 eats the free fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, 571 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,239 and that because of that he knows good and evil. 572 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,280 And that's what happens on the cross. On the cross, 573 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,639 he has a good thief and a bad thief, and 574 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,480 he judges between them. He that he he sayds, he says, 575 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,559 you're the good thief, leaving the bad thief for the 576 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:48,039 say to to to fend for himself. And so in 577 00:34:48,079 --> 00:34:52,159 the in the crucifixion story, there is an intuition that 578 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,480 Christ eats the eats the fruit and knows good and evil, 579 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,159 and because of that enters into the into the whole place, right, 580 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,039 rips the veil, goes into the Holy Place, and then 581 00:35:04,159 --> 00:35:08,119 eats the tree of life. Right. So, the like I 582 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:11,039 told you, like, it's important to understand that the paradise 583 00:35:11,079 --> 00:35:14,159 as a temple structure right where you have these levels, 584 00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:15,920 and so there's a level beyond it, which is the 585 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,480 Holy of Holies, the place where God reveals himself. And 586 00:35:18,559 --> 00:35:23,400 Christ plays out that story. And so the difference again 587 00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:26,280 like for example, in the Gospel, the difference is that 588 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,119 God that Christ does that in an opposite way to Adam. 589 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,719 You know when when Christ goes into the garden, right, 590 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,400 so just before Christ is crucified, he goes into the garden. 591 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,079 He goes into the garden of getz semone and then 592 00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:42,880 he says to God, I don't want to eat this 593 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,280 I don't want to drink this cup. I don't want it. 594 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:46,920 Like if you can take it away from me, take 595 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,199 it away. And so the difference between him and Adam 596 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,119 and Eve is that God says, if you eat this fruit, 597 00:35:54,199 --> 00:35:58,719 you will die, and Jesus says yes. He says, okay, 598 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,280 I will eat the fruit, and I will die, and 599 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,559 I will know good and evil. And so there's a 600 00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:09,719 sense in which the crucifixion is in many ways a 601 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,840 way to answer the problem that is set up in Genesis, 602 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,960 which is the problem of identity, the problem of inside 603 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,840 and outside, the problem of purpose and breakdown. And the 604 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,159 way in which Christ seems to answer it is that 605 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,639 instead of blaming others, you take the blame on yourself, 606 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,199 because that's what happens in the garden. Right in the garden, 607 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,239 Adam blames Eve. Eve blames the serpent, and that brings 608 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,960 about the fall. It's not just the eating of the fruit. 609 00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:40,800 There are many of the fathers that say that God 610 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,440 gives Adam and Eve way a way out. At every 611 00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:46,800 part of the story. He said, if they had taken 612 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,559 the blame for eating the fruit, they would have gotten 613 00:36:48,599 --> 00:36:50,039 a way out, like etcetera, et cetera. 614 00:36:50,199 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: But they just. 615 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,039 Speaker 3: Keep doubling down into their division, and they break down 616 00:36:54,039 --> 00:36:58,559 into chaos. And then Jesus flips it. Jesus says, Okay, 617 00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:01,679 I'm willing to die. I'm willing, and then I will 618 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,440 eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, 619 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,840 out of obedience, not out of pride, not out of 620 00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:09,599 like self taking. And what that will do is it 621 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:12,559 will transform the very basis of the world. It will 622 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:17,639 transform reality. It will create a body right that is 623 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,960 cohesive and held together in love, instead of a body 624 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,079 that is divided and breaking, broken and fighting amongst each other. 625 00:37:26,519 --> 00:37:31,400 And so the relationship between Christ being crucified, eating the fruit, willing, 626 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:35,960 being willing to die, taking the blame is reversing that 627 00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:38,719 which happens in the garden. And what it does is 628 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:44,480 it creates a body, a body of people that are 629 00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:46,960 that are together in love. Now, obviously you know the 630 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,880 case that that's not always what happens like in the church. 631 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,480 There are obviously all kinds of all kinds of sad reversions. 632 00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:56,920 But that's the that's the way in which Jesus is 633 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,599 akin to what happens in the garden. Like there's a 634 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:04,719 relationship between the between the two. And so it's it's 635 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,639 not it's understandable that gnostics would have read or heard 636 00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:11,440 the gospel stories or no known the gospel stories and 637 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,880 would have come to similar conclusions. But I think they're 638 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,440 missing They're missing the die part, which is God was 639 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,519 telling the truth. If you eat the fruit of the 640 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:23,000 knowledge of good and evil, you will die. But when 641 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,119 Adam meets the fruit, he refuses to die. He blames like, 642 00:38:26,199 --> 00:38:29,400 he refuses to take death on himself. He starts he 643 00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:32,000 right away. He blames Eve, and he blames the serpent, 644 00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:34,679 and he blames everybody. And he's basically trying to cast 645 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:37,960 off the consequence of the of the of the eating 646 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,440 of the fruit. And so ultimately that's the that's the 647 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,360 the solution, and and in some ways it does become 648 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:49,079 the solution that we all live in. 649 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:49,559 Speaker 2: Right. 650 00:38:50,159 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: I gotta wrap up because I'm getting too many messages. 651 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,440 But I don't know, I kind of like that. It's 652 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,000 not an answer to Alex's question, admittedly, but I do. 653 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:02,599 I like it. It's just, uh just feel it just 654 00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:09,800 feels like more than a book, you know, And yeah, 655 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,519 it's just it's cool, it's beautiful. I mean, this is 656 00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:15,880 the feeling you're left with when you read the Gospels 657 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,360 is like this, you're kind of in awe of this 658 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:24,880 figure Jesus, who we know really lived and really died 659 00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:28,360 and was crucified. I mean, we know that as about 660 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,000 as well as we can know anything that happened in history, 661 00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:37,559 certainly ancient history. And uh, you know, we probably have 662 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:43,800 some eyewitness accounts written down Matthew John, maybe Mark, an 663 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,039 early investigation done by Luke, and they all paint this 664 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:56,599 figure of this just amazing individual. And it is the 665 00:39:56,639 --> 00:40:00,880 symbolism between him and Adam is very interesting. He is 666 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,840 sort of the antithesis of Adam. You know, I like that. 667 00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:08,599 I haven't heard that articulated quite like that. I'm going 668 00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:14,199 to use that. I enjoyed that. Anyway. Please join us 669 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:22,280 tomorrow evening. That's about what I expect to see to 670 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:28,440 have the interview posted. That will be with doctor David Campbell, palaeontologist, 671 00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:33,360 teaches a lot of interesting evolutionary biology classes, and he 672 00:40:33,559 --> 00:40:37,760 is a Presbyterian, so we'll have a good time exploring 673 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,719 how exactly that works. All right, everybody, thanks for listening. 674 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,159 Send me an email at God's I viewbook at gmail 675 00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:49,039 dot com. Talk soon. Stay safe, God bless