WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:04.320 Oh no, Wandre, looks like the Reds are pallouting the 2 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:10.800 city lake we do. We call the Watchman, Strong together, 3 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.160 united forever. They're the best of friends. 4 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:17.000 But when troubles them out, you would best watch out 5 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:25.760 for the Watchman. And he loves to Russia expends to 6 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:29.920 the animalssage. Yeah, when he's not clowning around, he beat 7 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.719 up some thugs say no to drugs being bed by Tan. 8 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:37.399 But it troubles about, you would best watch out for 9 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:44.119 the Watchman. It's brittany bitch and said Iraq. 10 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.719 Everywhere like I supposed to be the franchise player. 11 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.840 And we in here talking about practice. 12 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:57.840 Ladies and gentlemen, we got them. 13 00:00:58.039 --> 00:00:59.920 Our next door neighbors are foreign countries. 14 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:03.280 I call upon all nations to do everything they can 15 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:05.879 to stop these terrors killing me. 16 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:09.120 Thank you. 17 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:13.519 Now watch this drive, Hey everybody, and welcome to Remember Shuffle. 18 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:15.599 My name is Ben, with me as always my co 19 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.359 host Tornano. I heard a joke. 20 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:21.280 Once man goes to the doctor, says he's depressed. Doctor says, 21 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.719 treatment is simple. Listener, remember Shuffle. That should pick you up. 22 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:28.040 Man burst into tears, says but doctor. 23 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:33.480 I'm Ben. Yes, if you couldn't have guessed from Tornado's impression. 24 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:36.439 Today we are discussing the two thousand and nine Zack 25 00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:41.000 Snyder adaptation of Watchmen, and to do so, we are 26 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:46.640 joined by Discourse stew of Marvelous or the Death of Cinema. 27 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:48.760 Neither first time, long time. It's a pleasure to be here. 28 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:51.239 Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I listen 29 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:54.519 to your episode on Watchman in preparation, and I think 30 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:56.760 we're gonna relign on a lot of what makes this 31 00:01:56.879 --> 00:02:00.400 film mediocre and forgettable. To be generous, i'd. 32 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:03.439 Say mediocre, yes, not totally forgettable, but that is in 33 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:05.480 part I think because of the benefit of the source 34 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:07.000 material is drawing off of Yes. 35 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:09.039 Yeah, I've been listening to your show for the past 36 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:13.039 year or so ever since we started getting into marvel topics. 37 00:02:13.080 --> 00:02:16.159 I had found myself not as well versed as you guys, 38 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:18.759 and I always found that your criticism and our criticism 39 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.199 were very much aligned, and so I thought it'd be 40 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:23.080 a good match, and we'll be going on your show 41 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:25.479 to talk about a two thousands topic shortly. 42 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.080 Oh yeah, yeah, in a couple two or three weeks. 43 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:31.199 So go subscribe to Marvelous and hopefully you'll hear us 44 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:33.159 talk about BlackBerry in the coming months. 45 00:02:33.319 --> 00:02:34.919 I'm super looking forward to that one. 46 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:37.400 It's great. We're both big fans of that film. So 47 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:41.400 why talk about Watchman if you're tuning in hoping for 48 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:46.000 another episode from our ongoing series on the Great Recession? 49 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:49.199 We apologize, but in a similar way to how we 50 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:52.080 took small breaks during the Iraq War series to talk 51 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:56.360 about Ironman or Robin Williams or V for Vendetta. Appropriately, 52 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:59.960 we're also taking a quick side quest to talk about 53 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:03.439 the two thousands reception of the work of Alan Moore. Again. 54 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:06.240 Yeah, comeing your break. I've been in Ethiopia for three weeks. 55 00:03:06.680 --> 00:03:09.759 I haven't been able to get to more Recession stuff. 56 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.599 But let's do this nice, fun intlude on I would 57 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:15.800 say the two thousands superhero work, which is maybe the 58 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:18.360 highest brow superhero movie that came out. 59 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:20.599 Yeah, we wanted to give you something for your biweekly 60 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:24.000 release rather than Leava Hanging. And the main reason to 61 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:28.199 discuss Watchman is that the graphic novel fucking rocks. If 62 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:30.280 you've ever heard anything about it, you know the fans 63 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:32.280 will say it's one of the only graphic novels that 64 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.879 Time put in its list of one hundred best novels 65 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:38.719 since nineteen twenty something, as printed on every single paperback 66 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:42.400 copy of Watchmen. And I think the movie itself is 67 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:46.639 fascinating in that it is reverent. It is Zack Snyder 68 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:50.960 treating the source material like scripture, even down to individual 69 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.960 shots being framed for frame comic panels, and yet through 70 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:59.319 what are relatively minor and modest tweaks, he manages to 71 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.199 completely undermine the source material and not get it at all. 72 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:05.319 Thank you, Zack Snyder. 73 00:04:05.479 --> 00:04:08.520 Yeah, and I honestly think that this movie is under discussed. 74 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:11.879 I tried to look up Watchmen podcasts out there, and 75 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.639 like ninety five percent of content surrounds the TV show, 76 00:04:15.719 --> 00:04:17.959 which we will not be discussing today. Maybe we'll get 77 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.120 to on the Patreon hopefully, but marvelous and discourse Stu, 78 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:24.759 you guys have done an episode on Watchmen. But I 79 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.399 think that people are not really sure what to make 80 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.560 of this movie. You know, it's both good and bad 81 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:32.839 in many ways, and so it's tough to sort of 82 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.480 pin down. But that's why we're hoping to talk about 83 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:36.279 it at length today. 84 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:38.920 Part do I think makes it interesting, like Ben said, 85 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.160 is it's like if i'd gotten to make a Watchman 86 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.959 movie at like age fifteen, it probably would have come 87 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.839 out kind of like this, Like like, I think it's 88 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.240 Snyder making the version of Watchman as he understood it 89 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:52.519 when he read it as a teenager, but without the 90 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:55.800 more nuanced understanding you'd get from it if you go 91 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:58.439 back and read it as an adult a little more critically. 92 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:02.120 Yes, absolutely, Tredia says, simultaneously both good and bad. It 93 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.480 is simultaneously both attempting to be highbrow, grasping at the 94 00:05:05.560 --> 00:05:10.519 high brow deconstruction of the superhero, and simultaneously very pubescent, lowbrow. 95 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.759 These guys are fucking awesome, yeah, as we will see. 96 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.639 So to begin, we're going to start by just doing 97 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:21.399 a little character analysis because it's an assemble cast movie 98 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:25.759 and it has really memorable characters that stick out in 99 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:28.160 your mind. And then we'll do a quick plot summary 100 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:29.879 if you haven't read it or haven't seen the film 101 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.199 in a while. And then, as always, we'll talk about style, 102 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:34.879 we'll talk about deviations from the source material, and then 103 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:38.160 we'll talk about our themes and big ideas. So let's 104 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:42.199 begin with everyone's favorite rorshak Or. I don't know if 105 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:46.160 he's everyone's favorite, but he's clearly Zack Snyder's favorite. If 106 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.240 I'm going to grasp for adjectives for Rorshack. He is 107 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:54.639 anti social and misanthropic, right despite his crusade for some 108 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:57.079 sense of justice. You get the sense from his journal 109 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:00.319 entries that he hates humanity. You may remember some of 110 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.160 the quotes from his journals that are often quoted or 111 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.040 clipped form means, you know, the city's dying of rabies 112 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:08.879 is the best I can do to wipe random flex 113 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:13.120 of foam from its lips. He's reactionary. He's frequently calling 114 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:17.639 women horrors. He hates people with liberal sensibilities. I reread 115 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.680 Watchman in preparation for this episode, and there's a scene 116 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:24.199 where they're going through drops that I believe Rorschach has 117 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:27.279 left at the New Frontiersman in the crank folder, and 118 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.319 one of them says, this one is addressed to the 119 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:34.399 je United States of America. Not a comrade. And he 120 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.839 is this filthy, anti social guy who walks around with 121 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.439 a sign that says the end is nigh when he's 122 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.600 not crime fighting. He is not Captain America. He is 123 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:47.600 not Bruce Wayne. I have to make this abundantly clear. 124 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.839 And he, like many of the characters, we're gonna get 125 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:52.399 this is a thing that we're going to keep coming 126 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:56.639 back to. He represents one of the possible logical end 127 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.759 points of being a vigilante, to take law or justice 128 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:03.600 into your own individualistic hands as opposed to something that's 129 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:07.480 collectively administered by society and by institutions that are set 130 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.600 up for society. It turns you into someone who actually 131 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.879 hates humanity, who thinks they are superior to does that 132 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.519 simple choice of saying that only I can do this 133 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:19.360 puts yourself at a higher level than everyone else. 134 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:23.720 Rorshak is in part modeled on a couple of Steve 135 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:28.000 Ditko characters, the co creator Spider Man, mister A and 136 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.720 the Question, who are both at least in Ditko's hands 137 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.519 tools to articulate his literal randy and objectivism. 138 00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:38.959 Mm hmmm, yeah, And I found this take on Reddit, 139 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:41.000 of all places, so take it with a grain of salt. 140 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:43.639 But this person says that each of these heroes is 141 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:48.199 meant to represent a different ethical school, and Rorshak is deontology. 142 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:51.079 It's from a Greek word meaning obligation, so there's an 143 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:55.199 absolute moral obligation to do what is right regardless of 144 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:59.480 outcomes or consequences. There is a strong moral code, and 145 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:02.079 I think you can definitely read the character that way. 146 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:04.160 But I find it so fascinating that I think there's 147 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:06.480 another reading of this character you could do where he 148 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:10.160 is motivated by a kind of primal violent id. I mean, 149 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.519 what is his mask. It's the block test to check 150 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:16.079 your subconscious Like, is it really all a code or 151 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.319 is it just living out violent power fantasies. 152 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:22.879 His mask represents. It's like he has a constant moral binary. 153 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.920 There's him and what's right, there's everybody else, But how 154 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:29.240 that binary is constructed is always shifting. He has a 155 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.440 code against compromising his binary, but how that binary is 156 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:35.120 constructed as amorphous to the needs of a psyche at 157 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:35.480 the moment. 158 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:38.279 That's a great reading and can you tell me? Admittedly 159 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:40.759 I'm sort of the Rolf Wigan on this episode here, 160 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:44.279 having asked what does the Warshack tests have to do 161 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:47.480 with his identity as a superhero? Like Peter Parker is 162 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:49.559 a spider Man because he was bitten by a spider. 163 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:53.200 Batman is the Batman because he got scared by bats 164 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:54.879 and now he wants to turn that fear onto others. 165 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:57.039 What does the Warshack test have to do with his 166 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:00.799 own personal sort of story or crime findings. I was 167 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:02.120 never able to piece that together. 168 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:06.159 That's what it is. There's no person under there. There's 169 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:10.399 this drive, this sense of never wanting to compromise, this 170 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:14.159 sort of absolutism in his personality. But it's not built 171 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:17.799 around a core of anything, just this amorphous collection of 172 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:21.279 memes he inherited from his absent abusive father that disappeared 173 00:09:21.279 --> 00:09:23.519 early in his life, which is what his reactionary politics 174 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.440 are built around, which is just a bunch of notions 175 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:29.600 that don't really add up to a coherent worldview. There's 176 00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:31.279 just him and something to fight. 177 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:36.720 So he's sort of intentionally hypocritical or like, not ideologically congruous, 178 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:37.320 you think. 179 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:40.840 I don't know if it's intentional, but it's reflective of 180 00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:44.080 the lack of anything there. He is kind of like 181 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:46.480 one of those guys that gets on Internet and yells 182 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.919 and screams about all these different things because they hate themselves. 183 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:53.039 You know, they're just blackpilled nihilists. But it doesn't add 184 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:56.480 up to anything really coherent other than there's me and 185 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:58.519 whatever I think is my stuff in the moment, and 186 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:02.039 then the everything else. I'm against the degeneracy. 187 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:02.639 I see. 188 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:05.600 I mean he calls the mask his face at several 189 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:08.840 points to this extent that there is no human underneath, 190 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:11.200 there is only this I see. 191 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:14.360 I've heard people say that, oh, well, the black and 192 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:17.799 white shapes represent his black and white view of the 193 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:19.879 world or whatever. But I'm like, well, that just describes 194 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:22.440 the color. It doesn't really describe the essence of what 195 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:25.960 a Rorshackt test is, which is to turn your projections 196 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.519 into reality. And so it seems like there isn't like 197 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:33.919 a great explanation maybe for why he specifically is tied 198 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:35.799 to this rorshach test. 199 00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.519 It's because the black and white is a projection. His 200 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:42.279 morality's always black and white, but what's in the black 201 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:44.360 and what's in the white is always changing moment to moment. 202 00:10:44.519 --> 00:10:44.799 Mmm. 203 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:45.720 I see. 204 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.480 Let's move on to character number two to discuss. And 205 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:51.120 this is kind of order of appearance in the comics. 206 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:56.759 As I was reading Osmandias or Adrian Vite the smartest 207 00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:59.759 man in the world, and he is the cynical sellout 208 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.159 very much works within the system. He's one of the 209 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.840 first capes to go work with the government. In the backstory, 210 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:08.639 this is the guy that Rorschak says of him rather 211 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.080 despairingly when comparing him to the comedian. The comedian never 212 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:15.000 let anyone retire him, never cash in on his reputation, 213 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:17.919 never set up a company selling posters and diet books 214 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:22.080 and toy soldiers based on himself, never became a prostitute. 215 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.720 It's so great, quoting Rorschak, he has a very strong 216 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:27.159 point of view in improv terms. 217 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.679 You know, yeah, he seems to be the most on 218 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:37.159 the nose criticism of superhero consumerism and like marketing, almost 219 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:38.279 like Russell Brand, being like. 220 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:42.200 You see, he sold himself. He understands that he is 221 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:43.679 a product to be sold. 222 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:47.600 He is eventually revealed to be the architect, mastermind, villain 223 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:51.279 of our sprawling conspiracy that drives the plot of the story. 224 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:55.600 And he's contemptuous of humanity because he thinks that he's 225 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:59.840 just that much better than them, mostly in the intellectual sphere. 226 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.159 He's got a god complex, hence the name. If you remember, 227 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:06.080 the poem is about the god king whose statue is 228 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:07.759 in the desert and the traveler comes on. 229 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:11.279 Did Osi Mandius finish that poem? He based his superhero 230 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:13.039 name off of it. I feel like maybe he didn't 231 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:14.000 get to the end of it. 232 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.080 Oh, he's so smart. He got four lines and he 233 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:18.240 was like, oh, I see where this is going. 234 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:20.320 Yeah, this is a poem, but a guy who rocks. 235 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.080 Not a poem, but like the meaninglessness of the works 236 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:25.799 of man on a large enough cosmic scale. But yes, 237 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.679 he's got this God complex. And if we return to 238 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.600 this view where all these guys represent different philosophical schools, 239 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.080 Ozymandias is the easiest to place. He represents a kind 240 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:38.279 of utilitarianism, do the thing that will do the most 241 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:41.039 good for the most number of people, even if the 242 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:43.639 decision that you need to make to get there might 243 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:47.360 not in itself be ethical. Oh yeah, our next character, 244 00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:50.200 honestly maybe my favorite. I think I've grown out of 245 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.840 Rorschak being my favorite. It's Doctor Manhattan aka doctor John Osterman. 246 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:59.240 Speaking of God complexes, this guy is quite literally basically 247 00:12:59.320 --> 00:12:59.759 a god. 248 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.720 You see, at the time I was misquoted, I never 249 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.559 said the Superman exists and he is American. 250 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:12.279 What I said was God exists and he's American. He's 251 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:14.840 the big blue guy. He's called the walking h Bomb 252 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.399 by a couple of characters to describe his powers. Is 253 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:20.399 he can do anything. He can turn any matter into 254 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.679 any other matter. He can teleport, he can make usself big, 255 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:26.320 he can make usself small. He perceives time simultaneously. The 256 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:29.720 work does some really fun stuff with predestination and free 257 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:33.159 will with him and He's the comics take on what 258 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:37.600 happens when someone gets Superman level powers, and the answer 259 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.360 is that once you become that powerful, you become aloof 260 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:44.600 and disinterested. I'm starting to notice a pattern. Yeah, so 261 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:47.559 far all of our characters basically hate humanity in some way, 262 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:50.480 shape or form. He doesn't hate it, he just doesn't care. 263 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:53.600 He can't bring himself to care. A live body and 264 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:57.679 dead body contain the same number of particles, he says, structurally, 265 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:02.200 there's no discernible difference. Life and death are unquantifiable abstracts. 266 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:06.679 Why should I be concerned? More like Captain existentialism? Am 267 00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:07.080 I right? 268 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.519 How familiar are you, guys with Alan Moore's work in general? 269 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.480 I've read this, I've read v for Vendetta. I think 270 00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:18.320 that might be it. I never read League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. 271 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:20.240 I think I read from Hell back in the day 272 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:20.720 as well. 273 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.279 There's a recurring theme in his work and in his worldview, 274 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.080 which is this idea of sort of like favor read 275 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.519 Slaughterhouse five, of all of time existing at once in 276 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.080 a kind of like four dy crystal structure, where everything's 277 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:36.720 happening at once and has already happened and is happening. 278 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:39.879 And Doctor Manhattan is in part just a vehicle to 279 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.519 explore that idea with his sort of experiencing all of 280 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:43.759 time simultaneously. 281 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:46.600 Yes, you've almost certainly seen the famous meme of him 282 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:49.799 sitting on Mars, used to poke fun at the fact 283 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:52.320 that nothing ever changes in our world. You know, it's 284 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.120 nineteen ninety four, the president is a baby boomer. It's 285 00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:57.480 two thousand and eight. The president is a baby boomer. 286 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:00.440 Is twenty sixteen, the president is a baby boomer, and 287 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:04.360 so on and so forth. He drops some just banger lines. 288 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:06.519 One of my favorite all time lines is I'm tired 289 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:09.200 of earth these people. I'm tired of being caught in 290 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:11.559 the tangle of their lives. I'm going to use that 291 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:13.480 next time I need to get out of plans I 292 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:15.759 don't want to go to. I'm sorry, gag, I just 293 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:18.080 I'm tired of being involved in the tangle of your lives. 294 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.919 That's part of what makes him so interesting is to 295 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.159 explore that sense of distance. I think even as a 296 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.000 kid when I first read the book, I kind of 297 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:29.759 related to it because I'm a god naturally, but because 298 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:31.320 I was one of those kids I just had like 299 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:33.720 a slightly different perspective and way of thinking from a 300 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:35.919 lot of my peers, and so I sort of related 301 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:37.360 to that sense of alienation. 302 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:38.000 Yeah. 303 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:39.399 I mean, I think he's supposed to be like an 304 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:42.720 analog for Superman, right, and the sense of Superman is 305 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.039 like a god. And then to what extent can he 306 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:49.879 empathize with a regular person enough to have the same 307 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.320 perspective as them, Like Peter Parker has a good sense 308 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.679 of what's right and wrong because he is a regular 309 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:56.679 guy and like lived his life as a regular guy. 310 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:58.919 But it's like, once you're a god, you could see 311 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:01.559 how you might start to have problems with determining what's 312 00:16:01.639 --> 00:16:03.759 right and wrong if you are a perspective of the 313 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:08.159 universe has made the earth like a tiny speck of dust, right, Yeah, 314 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:10.799 imagine you had like an ant farm, and like you 315 00:16:10.879 --> 00:16:13.200 kind of cared about these ants, and then you're helping 316 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.440 them with when one ant is getting mugged by another 317 00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:18.559 aunt but then you have an ant farm for like 318 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.960 eight years, and you're familiar with the rest of the world, 319 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.039 you can kind of start to see that these ants 320 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.440 their problems. You don't really have the same perspective. 321 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:27.360 That they do. 322 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:31.840 He's played by Billy Krutdup a stute Remember Shuffle listeners 323 00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:35.879 will remember him from Each Prey Love. He's Julia Roberts's 324 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:38.600 ex husband who wants to go to grad school and 325 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.759 so she gets a divorce. Much like Doctor Manhattan running 326 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.720 from the relationship by going to Mars, he was running 327 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:46.879 from the relationship to go to grad school in that movie. 328 00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.240 This is to remember Shuffle co host did not remember that. 329 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:54.000 But you remember his song He writes on the guitar. 330 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.639 I do It's all coming back to me now, okay. 331 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:01.200 Our next character is the second Silk specter, Laurie Polish 332 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:04.039 last name. I won't try and mangle Juice pet chick. 333 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:07.640 Here's a fun twist. Instead of hating all of humanity, 334 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:10.599 she just hates her mother and her partner. The first 335 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.680 character we're introduced to in the book, who is a 336 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:16.480 second generation Cape. There's a rich backstory to the Watchman. 337 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:19.000 Her mom was the first Silk specter, and a lot 338 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:21.920 of her plot wine has to do with nostalgia, living 339 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:26.759 in the past. She's bitter against the comedian or attempting 340 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.599 to sexually assault her mother, against her mother for making 341 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.319 her a superhero, against John for his aloofness and disinterestedness, 342 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:37.240 and especially in the movie. She is kind of the 343 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:40.000 flattest character in the work, but she's also given the 344 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:43.319 least to do in the story. She's kind of like 345 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:46.319 a plot device in that her birth, as we will 346 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:50.599 eventually see, is the miraculous thing that is so chaotic 347 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:54.519 and random that led to someone so beautiful that doctor 348 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:58.119 Manhattan can see the value in life again towards the 349 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.200 climax of the thing. Yeah, not a lot to do 350 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:01.920 in this film. 351 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:05.319 I think she's maybe one of the weakest cast. Maelan 352 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:07.759 Akerman really looks the part. With a character that has 353 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.200 less screen time and dialogue to clarify their character, you 354 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.799 kind of need someone who can use the performance to 355 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.119 find more there, and she doesn't unfortunately. 356 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:17.640 Yeah. 357 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.720 Second last character to discuss is the second night Owl, 358 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:25.799 Daniel Dreiberg. He's kind of like this universe's kid Gloves Batman, 359 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.319 even down to the animal themes and vehicles and gadgets. 360 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:34.160 He's the Adam West Batman. Rorshock is the well shit, 361 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:37.119 I mean Zack snyderbad I guess, and that he kills people. 362 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:42.839 He's an intellectual nerd. He went to Harvard to study ornithology, history, 363 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:46.400 and mythology. He just decided to double down on birds 364 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.519 as a major hence the unified theme of all this stuff. 365 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:54.200 He's TMU Batman birdman, if you will. And he's driven 366 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.240 by nostalgia, one of these key themes of the text. Right. 367 00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.799 He's his flabby middle aged man with nothing to do. 368 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:04.000 He's bored. He needs the thrill of adventurism, even if 369 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:07.559 it's bad for himself and society. He's living in the past. 370 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:10.079 And if he has any kind of moral ethical system 371 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.839 is a kind of basic pragmatism. Do what will be 372 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:17.400 most effective in a particular moment for problem solving. Mostly, 373 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:19.599 and that Reddit user that I crib that take from 374 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:23.799 was named gumby pants. Shout out gumby pants. Yeah. 375 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:25.960 You point out here that he comes around to Ozzi 376 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:29.119 Mandios's side in the end He's like, well, I guess, 377 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:30.599 I mean, if you already did. 378 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:32.599 It, yeah, then we can't have all these people die 379 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.000 for nothing. And finally, the last character is the comedian 380 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.400 Edward Blake. He's the superhero whose murder is the instigating 381 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:46.559 event of the entire work. His philosophical school is, of course, nihilism. 382 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.400 He's witnessed the worst of humanity, especially in Vietnam. He's 383 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.920 done war crimes. He's seen humanity at his absolute worse 384 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:57.640 and has decided that that is our innate, unchangeable nature, 385 00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:01.799 which turns him into this violent, wanta be cop psychopath 386 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.680 who just thinks that it's all a joke. It's all 387 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.519 a big joke. 388 00:20:05.799 --> 00:20:06.640 He's a black built. 389 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.880 Yeah, he decides to go with the state, right, He's like, well, 390 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:11.519 I guess I'll just work for you and I'll be 391 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.599 your instrument. We see him killing protesters in this movie. 392 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:18.359 He's very much on the side of institutional power. 393 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.759 Yeah, he's the fucking tip of the spear of the 394 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.759 US Empire. They say he's knocking over Marxist republics in 395 00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:24.920 Latin America. 396 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:26.079 In the movie, at least to make it explicit that 397 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:26.839 he killed JFK. 398 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:30.960 Yeah, only gestured two in the comic, but we see 399 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:34.519 him on the Grassy Knoll and yeah, I mean I'm 400 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.640 sure somewhere deep in the lore he kills Salvador Allende 401 00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.440