1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,719 Speaker 1: Already Folks has mentioned off of a light weekend. This weekend, 2 00:00:05,919 --> 00:00:09,359 it is the Fight Freaks Unite, well not really recap podcast. 3 00:00:09,439 --> 00:00:13,960 It's a special podcast edition and we are glad that 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,600 you are with us here on the pod feed as 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,760 we are about to discuss the fiftieth I cannot believe it, 6 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:23,879 the half century anniversary. 7 00:00:23,879 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: What is that? 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,199 Speaker 1: The golden anniversary? The golden anniversary of Muhammad Ali Joe 9 00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:32,880 Fraser three the Thrilla in Manila in October of nineteen 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,560 seventy five. I am merely the somewhat capable host TJ Reeves. 11 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,799 Our insider is Big Dan Rayfield. I don't have to 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,840 twist your arm to get nostalgic with me. You're all 13 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,000 about this coming up in a couple of moments, right, absolutely. 14 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we talk about old fights all 15 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:48,679 the time. I mean, as much as we love the 16 00:00:48,719 --> 00:00:51,399 new fights, they create the memories that become the old 17 00:00:51,399 --> 00:00:52,240 fights that we talk about. 18 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:52,759 Speaker 3: That's right. 19 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:54,679 Speaker 1: And guess what we hopefully are going to live for 20 00:00:54,679 --> 00:00:56,560 a while longer, and all the fights we've been talking 21 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,079 about for all these years in the recent they're going 22 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:02,320 to become the oldest algic fights. Uh sooner rather than later, 23 00:01:02,399 --> 00:01:04,879 five years from now, ten years from now, or dare 24 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,439 we even say if you get to fifty years beyond 25 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,359 like with this one. So again on the pod feed, thank. 26 00:01:10,239 --> 00:01:11,879 Speaker 2: You for again. I don't know if either one of 27 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,799 us agat to one hundredth anniversary of the thrown. 28 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,599 Speaker 1: I don't know that if we're in the home and 29 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,439 again we're both toothless and fighting and jousting us. I 30 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,319 like to say, with the plastic silverware, we might be 31 00:01:21,359 --> 00:01:21,799 breaking down. 32 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 3: We're gonna be on the on the Yeah, I mean, 33 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,599 who know, I don't think. I don't know. We'll see. 34 00:01:26,599 --> 00:01:28,599 Speaker 1: But anyway, thank you for finding us on the pod 35 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,000 feed on Apple, Spreaker, Spotify. Now we should also say 36 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,680 that the video where we're talking the nostalgia, the video 37 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:39,359 was up on the YouTube page and hopefully you found 38 00:01:39,439 --> 00:01:42,560 that earlier in the evening on Sunday for the thrilling 39 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:44,760 Manila and talking Ali and the greatness of Ali and 40 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,760 the final fight with Fraser in the end of his career. 41 00:01:47,239 --> 00:01:50,719 So go find the YouTube page as well. We love 42 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:52,439 it with all the content, and again there'll be some 43 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:54,959 better fights coming along, but we decided to be nostalgic 44 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:55,799 for tonight. 45 00:01:56,799 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 3: So let's get to it. 46 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:04,319 Speaker 1: Let's get to October one, nineteen seventy five. What was 47 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,919 actually a late morning fight in Manila in the Philippines, 48 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,199 back in the evening primetime in the United States closed 49 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:16,879 circuit days where they were using, as we've often talked about, 50 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,479 movie theaters that didn't have a lot of crowd in 51 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,360 them early in the week that would they would rent 52 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,479 out a bunch of movie theaters. They would have ballrooms 53 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,840 at hotels different locales to go watch the closed circuit 54 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:31,560 of this fight. And it's the third fight in the 55 00:02:31,599 --> 00:02:35,479 trilogy of Ali and Fraser. So Dan set it up 56 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,520 here because Fraser had won the first one, Ali had 57 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,280 won a non title rematch, and at the time here 58 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,319 this is Ali coming off the monumental upset of the 59 00:02:44,319 --> 00:02:48,319 seemingly unbeatable George Foreman in Zaire, Africa the year before. 60 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:50,879 All Right, set us up more on the trilogy fight 61 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:52,919 here that became the thriller in Manila. 62 00:02:53,599 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: Well, first thing you mentioned about the timing of the 63 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,039 fight that they did in the late morning in the Philippines. 64 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,759 Bob Aram from Top Rank was the motor of this fight, 65 00:03:01,039 --> 00:03:02,680 and I've talked to Bob about this in the past. 66 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,439 And the reason, as you mentioned, was because of the 67 00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:07,520 fact that they wanted it for the primary market, which 68 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,400 is where the money was, which was the United States 69 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:12,599 of America, for close circuit purposes. And so what I 70 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:14,400 guess they didn't realize is that the arena where they 71 00:03:14,439 --> 00:03:17,360 held this fight at the time, the Arenete Arena, which 72 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,479 is still in existence and they've still used for events 73 00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:23,000 and they've boxing and all that among other things, didn't 74 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:25,680 have air condition and it happened that it was at 75 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,400 the time of day where it was going to become 76 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,759 the hottest And so Bob has said to me about 77 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,919 just you know, how sweltering it was, and you could 78 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,080 tell by you know, the amount of exertion, and just 79 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,840 when you watch the fight and just it's a savage, 80 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,000 savage fight. Think about under any circumstances, how brutal it is. 81 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:46,520 But now think about it, if it's way above the 82 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,120 level of temperature that you'd be used to. It was 83 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,159 probably one hundred degrees in the ring because all over 84 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,400 that and the lighting from the TV. 85 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,599 Speaker 1: It was over a ninety degree day. As the story goes, 86 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,919 and again this facility seated over twenty five thousand people. 87 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,960 So now you pack all the people in breathing in 88 00:04:04,319 --> 00:04:07,719 all the air, you cut the hot TV lights on 89 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,840 and it was easily probably over one hundred and five 90 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:14,560 degrees and maybe closer to one hundred and fifteen degrees. 91 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,160 But Bob ring for these guys each other continue. 92 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:18,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, Bob talks about that when he says it as 93 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:21,759 far as setting up, Well, the reason why people say, well, 94 00:04:21,759 --> 00:04:24,600 all these fights, you know, thriller Manila's in the Philippines. 95 00:04:24,639 --> 00:04:26,720 You had obviously the Rumbolt and the jungle with Foreman 96 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,000 took place in Zaire. You know when George fought Fraser 97 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,399 and won the title took place in Jamaica. That's because 98 00:04:33,439 --> 00:04:36,120 these governments were paying big site fees to bring the 99 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,920 event there. That was no different in terms of Manila 100 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,800 with the Marcos government to try to bring a positive 101 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,519 light to the Philippines. It's not dissimilar to what we 102 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,279 see with what goes on with the Saudi Arabian events 103 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,759 these days. So aarm and Ali and Fraser went there 104 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,439 to do this fight. You mentioned that he had defeated 105 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,519 in a massive upset in October of nineteen seventy four 106 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,639 to win the Drumm Jungle to regain the heavyweight championship 107 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,399 against George Forman, a monumental upset. He defended the title. 108 00:05:04,439 --> 00:05:07,399 After that, he fought Chuck Webner in the famous fight 109 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,000 that became the basis for Sylvester Stallone's idea for the 110 00:05:11,079 --> 00:05:14,480 Rocky movie. He beat the noted puncher Ron Lyle, He 111 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,680 beat Joe Bugner, who was a longtime contender, and then 112 00:05:17,759 --> 00:05:21,439 in October of seventy six he fought this fight with 113 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,680 Joe Fraser. So he had all those fights over that 114 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:25,360 period of time. It was only one year basically a 115 00:05:25,439 --> 00:05:27,600 year where he had the three fights. I mean, that 116 00:05:27,759 --> 00:05:30,120 was the time when guys were active. In terms of 117 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,160 Joe Fraser, you mentioned he'd won the first fight, the 118 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,600 fight of the century, lost the second fight, which was 119 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,000 not for the world title, was like for the NABF title, 120 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,839 regional type title. But he had lost a second fight 121 00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:45,720 that ali. This was in January of seventy four. He 122 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,399 then had fought twice incend he had a knockout of 123 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,000 Jerry Quarry, a long time contender. He had a knockout 124 00:05:51,199 --> 00:05:53,319 of Jimmy Ellis, and that set him up for this 125 00:05:53,399 --> 00:05:58,079 third fight against Muhammad Ali. Ali fought for years after 126 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,000 this third fight, only fought two more times after this. 127 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,560 He had the rematch with George Foreman that he got 128 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:06,480 clobbered in once again, and then he was off for 129 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,600 five years, and then he came back and got a 130 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,879 draw against the legendary Jumbo Cummings, who you probably right, right. 131 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,279 But on the night that Ali and Fraser met for 132 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:17,959 the second for the third time in the ring, I mean, 133 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,439 it goes down is arguably one of the if not 134 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,160 the greatest fight of all time. I mean, you know, 135 00:06:23,319 --> 00:06:26,560 we can quarrel and discuss about, you know, certain action 136 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,000 fights if you're partial to some of the lighter weights 137 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,040 like a you know, a Chico Corrales against Jose Luis Castillo, 138 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,519 or you know, any number of the smaller weight fights. 139 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,959 There's plenty of them. But in terms of the historical 140 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,759 relevance because of the heavyweight championship being at stake in 141 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:43,959 this fight, the names associated because of the legendary status 142 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:47,480 of Ali and Fraser, sort of the unusual location where 143 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,519 the fight took place. For that, you know, he had 144 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,879 that all together, U And it was obviously a different 145 00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:54,480 time for boxing. It's still front page news at the time. 146 00:06:55,639 --> 00:06:56,639 Speaker 3: I was going right there. 147 00:06:56,639 --> 00:07:00,759 Speaker 1: You hat to understand how big a deal this was worldwide, 148 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,680 not just in the United States, that the heavyweight champion 149 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,079 of the world being Muhammad Ali. He had fought all 150 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,639 over the globe. He had fought in Africa. He had 151 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:12,360 also fought in Europe a couple of times, in England 152 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,560 and in Germany. He had fought, you know, he had 153 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,279 fought all over the place besides just the United States. 154 00:07:19,639 --> 00:07:20,279 Speaker 3: Globally. 155 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: It's arguable, but probably he was the most famous athlete 156 00:07:24,439 --> 00:07:26,680 in the world for the better part of about a decade. 157 00:07:26,879 --> 00:07:30,079 Speaker 3: During this time frame, everybody knew who he was. You know. 158 00:07:30,639 --> 00:07:32,519 Speaker 2: The first fight that they had was a great fight. 159 00:07:32,879 --> 00:07:35,199 These guys, you know, Joe Fraser was at his you know, 160 00:07:35,319 --> 00:07:38,000 I guess in his prime, had the knockdown, won the 161 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:42,319 title or or won millennial title, was already the champion. 162 00:07:42,399 --> 00:07:44,319 I was at a time where Ali was you know, 163 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:47,800 had been forced into his time off because he didn't 164 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:50,040 go into the Vietnam War and accept his induction into 165 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,480 the army, so he got suspended. Eventually worked his way 166 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:54,199 back to the fight. He became the mega event of 167 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,240 the twenty one of the mega sports events of the 168 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,959 twentieth century, and so it was the champion undefeated. Again, 169 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,000 it's the guy with the lineal title, the claims of 170 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,360 the title undefeated, and it was a massive event in 171 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,439 a great fight by the time they got to So 172 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,279 then the second fight happened, which I said, that's the 173 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,959 kind of the forgettable fight of the trilogy. Was not 174 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,560 a spectacular fight by any stretch of the imagination that 175 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:14,959 we get to the third fight when it. 176 00:08:14,879 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: Was only a twelve round fight too, by the way, 177 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,560 by schedule it only went twelve the distance, and then 178 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,920 you had this one, then you got to this one, right. 179 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: So the difference here is that by the time they 180 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,519 get to the third fight, both guys are still obviously 181 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,279 really good, but they're degraded at that point. They can't 182 00:08:31,319 --> 00:08:35,399 move as well. They didn't have the similar athleticism that 183 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:37,320 they still had when they fought for the first time 184 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,559 or even for the second time. And when that happens, 185 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,360 and I've seen this in other fights that I've covered, 186 00:08:42,279 --> 00:08:44,759 Guys to have big hearts that didn't change, and guys 187 00:08:44,759 --> 00:08:47,120 can still punch that didn't change. But when you can't 188 00:08:47,159 --> 00:08:49,440 move as well, you're kind of forced to stand in 189 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,320 front of the guy, and you can't get away from 190 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,120 the punches, and it makes it for a much more 191 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,159 sort of grinding, ruling, physical fight. So this third fight 192 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,759 was way more punishing and way more destructive and took 193 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,200 so much more out of these guys than the previous 194 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,480 two fights that it was just something to behold. I mean, 195 00:09:08,759 --> 00:09:11,639 the punishment that these two guys inflicted on each other 196 00:09:12,759 --> 00:09:15,840 is there. There are really not words to describe it, 197 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:17,720 and Ali did it the best he could. At some 198 00:09:17,799 --> 00:09:20,559 points he talked about it was the closest to death 199 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,879 he could ever have imagined, you know. And if you 200 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:26,279 want to talk about the accolades that the fight ranging up, 201 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:28,120 and it's obviously you can find it on YouTube area. 202 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,279 It's just an amazing fight to watch. This goes on 203 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:32,720 saying it was the fight of the year for nineteen 204 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,240 seventy five by pretty much everybody, ring magazine, you name it, 205 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,559 in the in the midnight, I went and looked this 206 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:39,960 up because then we're going to be talking about this 207 00:09:40,039 --> 00:09:43,360 in the In nineteen ninety six, the Ring magazine did 208 00:09:43,399 --> 00:09:45,759 its I guess Top fifty or top one hundred fights 209 00:09:45,799 --> 00:09:48,039 or whatever of all time. This was ranked as the 210 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,720 number one fight of all time. Now, do you remember 211 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:52,360 the Old Sports Century series. 212 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,639 Speaker 3: On ESI right in nineteen ninety nine, right, Yes. 213 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: So they were going right reviewing the twentieth century. This 214 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:02,879 was named not just for boxing, for all sports. This 215 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:05,480 was named as the fifth greatest sporting event of the 216 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:06,399 twentieth century. 217 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:06,799 Speaker 3: Wow. 218 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: So that just sort of explains to you the level 219 00:10:10,399 --> 00:10:13,399 of beyond just a boxing match that this was well. 220 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: And again the magnitude is massive, the fact that Ali 221 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:22,159 has beaten foreman who had destroyed Fraser. Now, interestingly, when 222 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:23,879 you go back and watch the fight, and I have 223 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,120 gone back and I've seen the fight a couple of times. Again, 224 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:28,000 I was a little TJ. You were a little Rayfield 225 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,240 when this was live. But when you go back and 226 00:10:29,279 --> 00:10:32,159 watch the fight, Ali was really in control at the 227 00:10:32,159 --> 00:10:35,440 beginning of the fight, the hand speed, the footwork. But 228 00:10:35,639 --> 00:10:38,360 like you mentioned, father time is catching up with both 229 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:39,879 of them. He was not going to be able to 230 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:43,559 sustain that, and it became more of a slugfest. 231 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,279 Speaker 3: It became more of a brawl. 232 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: And that's when Fraser in the fifth round rocks him 233 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,480 with the left hook, and the crowd is oooing and 234 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,039 eyeing and cheering, and it's like okay, now the fight 235 00:10:53,159 --> 00:10:55,759 is on and then Rayfield. They proceed to beat on 236 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,919 each other, oh, and beat on each other for another 237 00:10:59,039 --> 00:11:02,200 eight or nine round until the high drama comes in 238 00:11:02,279 --> 00:11:05,720 the twelfth, the thirteenth, and the fourteenth round, the championship rounds. 239 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:07,279 Of this fifteenth round fight. 240 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: It was just a battle of attrition. It was not 241 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:11,200 I mean, I guess that, you know, maybe it would 242 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,000 have gone the distance, but they had so little left 243 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,879 at the end. I mean, you know, if you, if you, 244 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:16,399 if you fast forward to the end of the fight 245 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,399 where it stopped at the end of the fourteenth round, 246 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,720 where Eddie Futch, you know, the the late great trainer, 247 00:11:21,799 --> 00:11:24,799 Hall of Fame trainer for Joe Frasier, matching up against 248 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:27,600 another all time great trainer in Angelo Dundee Fromhammad Ali. 249 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,200 He would not let Joe come off the stool for 250 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,399 a round number fifteen. And it was close where maybe 251 00:11:34,399 --> 00:11:36,039 they weren't in a lot. Ali maybe not come out 252 00:11:36,039 --> 00:11:38,600 for the fifteenth round. I mean, both these guys were spent, 253 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,080 and you know, Futch, you know, decided that was enough. 254 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,559 You know, Joe's eyes were messed up, and you know, 255 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,840 Ali obviously was feeling the pain. Also, this was. You know, 256 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,120 we always think about in a boxing match, and I 257 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,039 think about this all the time. You see the guy 258 00:11:54,039 --> 00:11:56,600 who wins, they raised their hand and he wins the fight, 259 00:11:56,639 --> 00:11:58,320 and obviously you see the loser. Obviously if it's a 260 00:11:58,399 --> 00:12:00,320 very hard, tough fight, you're like, oh, you know, he 261 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,440 took a real punishment in that fight. He lost the fight. 262 00:12:03,039 --> 00:12:06,240 The guy who won often takes just as much punishment 263 00:12:06,279 --> 00:12:08,240 as the guy that loses. Its just that he happens 264 00:12:08,279 --> 00:12:09,799 to get his hand raised. But what people, I think 265 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,960 a lot of times in this sport, forget fans and otherwise, 266 00:12:13,399 --> 00:12:15,480 is that the guy that wins often is just as 267 00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:17,639 damaged as the guy who loses. He just happened to 268 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,519 be the guy to get the victory, whether by points 269 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,080 or maybe gets a knockout in this particular case, a 270 00:12:22,159 --> 00:12:25,759 knockout that was maybe a moment away from it going 271 00:12:25,799 --> 00:12:28,279 the other way, you know, where where maybe neither one 272 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:29,519 of the guys would have been able to come out 273 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,639 and finish the fight. Then you get yourself a technical draw. 274 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:32,039 I guess. 275 00:12:32,279 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: So Ali in the thirteenth round, there's a famous you 276 00:12:34,879 --> 00:12:36,200 know exchange, and you've seen. 277 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:36,799 Speaker 3: Highlights of it. 278 00:12:36,799 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: He blasts forem him with a couple of big right 279 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,320 hands and knocks his mouth piece out, has him hurt. 280 00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:46,480 And that's the point in time because I saw an 281 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:48,240 interview with Eddie Futch where he was talking about it, 282 00:12:48,279 --> 00:12:50,600 where Eddie became very concerned. 283 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 2: But he was almost find Joe was almost and. 284 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 3: So this is what I was coming to. 285 00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: It was later revealed by Frasier in his book that 286 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,759 he was legally blind. I believe in the right at 287 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:03,600 this point in time. How they got this pass boxing 288 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,879 commissions and doctors or whatever whatever tactic they used the Philippines. 289 00:13:08,039 --> 00:13:12,120 Now his left eye is swelling shut with Ali blasting 290 00:13:12,159 --> 00:13:14,679 him in the thirteenth round, in the fourteenth round, and 291 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,840 in Futch's interview that I remember seeing somewhere he said, 292 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,559 I had a blind fighter that could not see, and 293 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,120 I was not sending him out there again to take 294 00:13:24,159 --> 00:13:27,639 more punishment and maybe get killed when he could not see. 295 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:32,000 So it's just amazing that Foreman was able. I'm sorry 296 00:13:32,039 --> 00:13:35,080 that Fraser was able to hang in in a twelfth round, 297 00:13:35,159 --> 00:13:39,039 a thirteenth round, in that sweltering situation without basically being 298 00:13:39,039 --> 00:13:40,600 able to see Ali. 299 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: As he's you know, I don't know if this was 300 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:48,480 part of Eddie Futch's reasoning for pulling Joe out of 301 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,960 the fight. But he was losing the fight going into 302 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,039 that fourteenth round, so I mean, obviously he probably had 303 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,159 an inkling that his guy was down. You know, if 304 00:13:57,159 --> 00:13:58,559 he had been up big, maybe he lets it go 305 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:00,480 because you know, if he can take three more minutes 306 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,279 of punishment, he's gonna win the fight. But you know 307 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:03,879 it was. 308 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 3: Not the case. 309 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: But I mean, they stopped the fight and they immediately 310 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,279 cut over to Ali and you hear the legendary play 311 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:13,600 by play man on the closed circuit Don Dumpy going, 312 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:16,039 I think they're stopping the fight, and they see Ali 313 00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:18,440 stand up, and he says Ali has won the fight. 314 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,440 And Ali puts his arms up for a second and 315 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,759 then walks to the middle of the ring and sits 316 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,440 down and then eventually lays down in the middle of 317 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,960 the ring, just exhausted and dehydrated. He reportedly lost like 318 00:14:31,159 --> 00:14:35,679 seven pounds during the fight in waterweight. It was it 319 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:38,080 was crazy what they put themselves through. 320 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,279 Speaker 2: It was, like they said, about being as near death 321 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,840 as one could imagine and remember going into the fight. 322 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,759 You know, what made it so important for the public, 323 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:50,080 for the fans is that they had the history of 324 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,120 the rivalry the first two fights, so obviously we're one 325 00:14:52,159 --> 00:14:55,240 and one. They were both superstar heavyweight champions, had been 326 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,639 you know, Fraser had been the champion. They had had 327 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,120 some harsh words with each other, and you know got 328 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,399 into the uh the physical altercation on Wide World of 329 00:15:04,399 --> 00:15:07,320 Sports for Eximp Howard. Yes, so they had had a 330 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,440 lot of well really not both. Then it was really 331 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,720 Ali that had the bad word to say about Joe Fraser, 332 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,440 which hurt him very deeply, even if Falley claims he 333 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,360 didn't really mean it that way. But you know it's 334 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,279 more of a promotional thing. But you know, they had 335 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,720 a very complicated relationship beyond the ring. 336 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: Very famously, Ali's at one of the press conferences and 337 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:27,919 pulls out a rubber toy gorilla and he starts doing 338 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,960 his riff of I'm gonna show you that it's going 339 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:34,120 to be a thriller when I pound the gorilla in Manila, 340 00:15:34,159 --> 00:15:36,720 and he starts hitting the rubber gorilla right next to 341 00:15:36,759 --> 00:15:39,960 Fraser at Fraser and Fraser's ready to fight him at 342 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,279 the press conference. 343 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: Exact quote TJ. It's it's going to be a thriller, 344 00:15:44,159 --> 00:15:46,559 and at Chilla and at Kila when I get the 345 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:47,960 gorilla in Manila. 346 00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:50,639 Speaker 1: And he's pounding on the rubber gorilla holding it in 347 00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:53,159 his hand, right next to Fraser who's ready to fight him. 348 00:15:53,159 --> 00:15:55,240 There again after they had fought in the New York 349 00:15:55,279 --> 00:15:59,840 studio for ABC on Howard Cosell's show, So there was 350 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:01,799 a blood And what. 351 00:16:01,799 --> 00:16:04,159 Speaker 2: Made it so amazing though, is that these are heavyweights 352 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,000 who had all time ability to take punishment, who had 353 00:16:09,279 --> 00:16:11,519 gargantua and hearts, who weren't going to give an inch, 354 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,639 and you had to impose yourself on each other. And 355 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:18,159 that's what they did for this fight. And again, because 356 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:20,679 they weren't what they were at their best, they kind 357 00:16:20,679 --> 00:16:22,600 of couldn't get out of the way and they just 358 00:16:22,639 --> 00:16:24,360 had to rely more on their heart than on their 359 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:25,720 skills at this point of their careers. 360 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,639 Speaker 1: And again, we can't say enough the magnitude that this 361 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,039 is front page news worldwide that Ali has won this fight. 362 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,799 It's the lead story on the national news. Remember there's 363 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,320 no Internet, there's no real there's no cable TV, the. 364 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 3: Cell phone doesn't exist. 365 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:44,039 Speaker 1: This was such a big deal that Ali had won 366 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,720 this fight on the heels of beating form in the 367 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:50,360 year before, for the legacy and for the all time. Now, 368 00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:52,960 the important thing in the nostalgia is this wasn't at 369 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,120 the end of the career of either guy, as you 370 00:16:55,159 --> 00:16:56,759 were making read Ali fought a bunch. 371 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, in a perfect world, both these guys 372 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,639 probably should have called it a day when this is over. 373 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,240 Obviously it's boxing that wasn't gonna happen. So this was, 374 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,359 like I said October seventy five, Joe has taking a 375 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,440 very bad meeting. In this fight, he retires or you know, 376 00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:12,119 Eddie Fudge pulls him out after round fourteen less than 377 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,119 you know. Seven eight months later June of two, June 378 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,160 of seventy six, he comes back and he has a rematch, 379 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,400 not for the world title, this is a regional title fight. 380 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,759 He has the rematch with George Foreman. Memory comes in 381 00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,480 with the with the you know, he's wearing the rope, 382 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,119 but he's got the hood up and when he pulls 383 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,240 the hood off, shows that he's shaved his head bald. 384 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,839 That was kind of a shock to everybody. And George 385 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:36,880 Foreman knocked him down a couple of times and stopped 386 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,799 him in the fifth round. So obviously got the two 387 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,640 knockout victories, and as I mentioned, then he was pretty 388 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,119 much done for that time. And then that was seventy six, 389 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,079 and then at the end of nineteen eighty one he 390 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,319 came out of retirement for a singular fight against Jumbo Cummings, 391 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:50,839 fought him to a draw in a ten rounder, and 392 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,680 then never fought again. Now so so in essence, the 393 00:17:54,759 --> 00:17:57,960 Ali third fight ended Joe's career, you know, with the 394 00:17:58,079 --> 00:17:59,640 let's call it the coda of. 395 00:17:59,559 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 3: The for all intents and purposes, that was the end 396 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:02,240 of it. 397 00:18:02,279 --> 00:18:05,079 Speaker 2: Now with Ali, totally different ballgames. So he's stilled the 398 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,240 champion because he retained the title because he you know 399 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:10,599 that he had won back from Foreman in seventy four. 400 00:18:11,079 --> 00:18:14,599 He fights Frasier in the third fight in h now 401 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,680 the amount of punishment takes in October of nineteen seventy five. 402 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,480 He was back in action in February of nineteen seventy six. 403 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:23,400 I mean he took off just a few months. He 404 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:25,279 fought in Puerto Rico when he had a fight against 405 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,440 Jean Pierre Coopan, who he knocked out. So he was 406 00:18:28,599 --> 00:18:31,039 very active after that. He went on and actually had 407 00:18:31,079 --> 00:18:33,640 some of his biggest fights, biggest wins and a lot 408 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,039 of you know, added a lot. 409 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,759 Speaker 3: Of Yankee Stadium in nineteen six. 410 00:18:37,839 --> 00:18:40,039 Speaker 2: Even before that, so after Coopman, he had the Jimmy 411 00:18:40,079 --> 00:18:42,839 Young fight, he fought Richard Dunn in Munich. You know 412 00:18:43,079 --> 00:18:44,640 you mentioned he fought all over the place. He went 413 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,960 to Europe for that fight. Then he had that's the 414 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,599 seventy six fight. This was at Yankee Stadium, the third 415 00:18:49,599 --> 00:18:52,559 fight with Kenny Norton. That was a controversial decision that 416 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:55,799 Ali won to retain the title. They had split two 417 00:18:55,799 --> 00:18:58,559 previous fights. Norton was always style wise of pain in 418 00:18:58,599 --> 00:19:00,440 the neck for Ali to deal with, and he had 419 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,759 another big problem with him on that night in September 420 00:19:03,799 --> 00:19:06,720 of seventy six and a third fight. And if you 421 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,559 talked to Bob Aram, who was the promoter for that 422 00:19:08,599 --> 00:19:11,319 fight also, he'll tell you that it was after the 423 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:15,319 as much punishment as Ali talk against Frasier in the 424 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:18,359 Manila fight. I've talked to Bob in the past and 425 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,079 he said to me, after the seventy six third fight 426 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,319 with Kenny Norton, that's when he felt that Ali should 427 00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:25,680 have retired because he could tell that was the night 428 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,400 where shruck Aram, who promoted by the way like twenty 429 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,359 seven of Muhammad Ali's fights. He knew him extremely well. 430 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,920 They were together for a long time and maintained the 431 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,759 relationship even long after his retirement, to the point where 432 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,920 now he promotes his grandson Nico Ali Walsh. In any event, 433 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,039 it was after the fight with Norton where Bob thought 434 00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:46,160 that should have been the end for Muhammad, but he 435 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,279 was still the heavyweight champion, and of course he continued 436 00:19:48,319 --> 00:19:52,599 to fight. He fought Alfredo Evangelista late in nineteen seventy seventy, 437 00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:55,680 he fought Ernie Shavers again for another time in nineteen 438 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,160 seventy seven, and then he matched up with Leon Spinks 439 00:19:58,519 --> 00:20:01,920 in February of nineteen seventy eight. Obviously, that became one 440 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,359 of the famous upsets of all time. Vally is the 441 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,319 long reigning champion. People maybe are blinded to think that 442 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,400 he's still got it because he's been on a run 443 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:14,119 of continual defenses. Spinx's uh six oh one had won 444 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,400 the Olympic gold medal but had a draw on his record, 445 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,400 And you know, if they made that kind of match today, 446 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,640 people would go absolutely Luna to right stunning. 447 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 3: It was stunning. It was stunning that he beat him. 448 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: And again that was an interesting time frame because I'll 449 00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,480 y another factor here. Ali was in need of money, 450 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,279 and that's well known. He talked about it, he wrote 451 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:35,240 about it in his book, and so he was still fighting 452 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,039 frequently because of the money, and there was some money 453 00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:40,640 because of the Spinks name of being an Olympic champion, 454 00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:44,960 et cetera. And it's people don't realize how regularly he 455 00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:47,200 fought after the Fraser fight before we had to Larry 456 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,160 Holmes coming up, but he did. 457 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: He fought a bunch, but. 458 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: He obviously lost that fight to Spinks, one of the 459 00:20:51,039 --> 00:20:53,440 greatest upsets in boxing history. And he's certainly in the 460 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,000 heavyweight division. And Leon Spinks became an a you know, 461 00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:59,680 as much fame and notoriety as the top amateurs had 462 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,240 back the time the nineteen seventy sixth ELEMIT team with 463 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,519 Leon Spinks, with his brother Michael Spinx, with Sugar Ray Leonard. 464 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,799 They became household names. But he became even bigger in 465 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,200 terms of what his profile was after he had the 466 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,680 split decision over Ali to win the title. And then, 467 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,839 of course, you know, later in nineteen seventy eight, eight 468 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,680 months later or whatever it was, he lost in the 469 00:21:19,839 --> 00:21:22,039 giant rematch in New Orleans. 470 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:25,039 Speaker 1: Breaking night in the Superdome. All right, So I'm going 471 00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:26,480 to hit you with a little fun trivia. 472 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 2: By the way, that was at that moment that seemed 473 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:29,640 to be the end of Valley, that he was going 474 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:30,279 to be done. 475 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,599 Speaker 1: Right right, But how about when he fought Spinks in 476 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,519 the first fight to give you an idea of the 477 00:21:35,559 --> 00:21:39,960 magnitude of the interest, that was a weak night in 478 00:21:40,039 --> 00:21:44,839 Las Vegas, and they televised it live on CBS, CBS 479 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,880 bid for the fight, CBS Television. Brent Musberger called the 480 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,319 fight that night. At that point, Forty Pacheco, the fight doctor, 481 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,640 had decided I'm not going to be involved with Ali anymore. 482 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:55,559 I think he should retire. 483 00:21:55,559 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 2: But he was on the broadcast, which is good because 484 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,000 Freddy Picheck was a horrible announcer. 485 00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 3: Well, okay, but the fight doctors there, all right. 486 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:10,559 Speaker 1: CBS had forty three million people watch that night, so again, 487 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,960 different era, fewer channels. You know, Ali was that big 488 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,599 of a deal. Rayfield, We've talked about this before. Do 489 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,920 you remember for the rematch later in September in New Orleans? 490 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,400 The TV audience, how many people watched the Ali Spinks 491 00:22:25,559 --> 00:22:26,799 was like seventy million or something. 492 00:22:26,799 --> 00:22:32,519 Speaker 3: That was why nine zero brother ninety million. 493 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 2: People because people have three channels and it was a 494 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,559 massive that's right. 495 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,319 Speaker 1: But the magnitude of Ali trying to get the heavyweight 496 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,240 title back once more avenged the loss to Sphinx. 497 00:22:42,599 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: It was on the level of a super Bowl. I mean, you. 498 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,559 Speaker 1: Can't fathom that five million people will watch a fight anymore. 499 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 2: In today's day. The super Bowl does like one hundred 500 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,799 million people, the one hundred three million, hundred forever. This 501 00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:58,480 was not quite that much. And obviously it's also you know, 502 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,119 decades ago, so there's people in the United States at 503 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:02,960 that point. But yeah, so it did like a super 504 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,880 Bowl level number. 505 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,279 Speaker 1: Like I mean in the present in the present day, 506 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,720 you would kill to get five million people to watch. 507 00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:10,759 Speaker 2: You look up and see what did the super Bowl 508 00:23:10,799 --> 00:23:13,279 broadcast in like nineteen seventy eight or nineteen. 509 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 3: Oh this was more than it. 510 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,839 Speaker 1: This was more than it on a Sunday afternoon by 511 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,599 by far, I'm sure then the Steelers and the Cowboys or. 512 00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 2: But there was the game was the super Bowl back 513 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:21,480 at night? 514 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,599 Speaker 3: Back then, the super Bowl was in the daytime. 515 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: Back in the they would play it in the afternoon, 516 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,000 in the late afternoon, and this this was just on 517 00:23:28,039 --> 00:23:31,599 a different level that win over Foreman in Africa, the 518 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,440 win and the Thriller Manila that we're talking about right now, 519 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,160 for this just launched Ali even more into the lore 520 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:41,799 and the fight fans and the magnitude of it. That 521 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:45,079 ninety million people watched the Sphinx fight and then just 522 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:49,359 one more time. He retired after that night, but then 523 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,000 came out of the retirement and the anniversary of that 524 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:54,960 fight is this week. Also right at the same time 525 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,200 as the Thriller in Manila, as he fought Larry Holmes 526 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,079 coming out of retirement. 527 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that should never have happened. I mean, Holmes was 528 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,839 in like a no win situation. He was always in 529 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,759 the shadow of Ali, even though he was becoming a 530 00:24:05,799 --> 00:24:08,200 great champion in his own right at that time. And 531 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,319 it's like in boxing, it happens on a regular basi. 532 00:24:10,319 --> 00:24:12,440 It's the right of passage, it's the passing of the baton. 533 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 3: Uh. 534 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,599 Speaker 2: You know, he had sparred with Muhammad Ali, he had 535 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,920 been on undercards of his and now he had to 536 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,240 fight him. I don't think he reveled in it. And 537 00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:22,839 he's talked about it, and if you go back, you 538 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,880 can find any number of comments from Larry Holmes for 539 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,519 the years that you know he didn't want to hurt 540 00:24:27,599 --> 00:24:29,680 Muhammad Ali or do any kind of damage to him, 541 00:24:29,799 --> 00:24:33,119 and uh, for whatever reason, Ali took that fight. He 542 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,880 got absolutely destroyed. 543 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,799 Speaker 1: Money again probably and it was obvious that night because 544 00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:40,839 you go back and watch that fight. Ali had nothing 545 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,000 like in the second round and the fight it went 546 00:24:44,079 --> 00:24:46,680 on and on with Holmes just beating on him and 547 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,839 beating on him, and finally they stopped the fight. 548 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,319 Speaker 2: Angela Dundee stopped it after the tenth round. And then 549 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,759 as sick as that beatdown was, a year later, you know, 550 00:24:56,839 --> 00:24:59,519 Ali fought again fourteen months later. That was the fight 551 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:03,400 against ever Berbick in Nasa the Bahamas, which was ultimately 552 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,119 the final fight of his career. But you know, he 553 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,440 could have walked away after the Minila fight and that 554 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,880 would have been good. He certainly could have walked away 555 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,359 after regaining the title against Spinks in the rematch, but 556 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:18,079 you know, like every fighter, you know, he wanted to 557 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,960 keep going and make the money, like you said, and 558 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,720 you know they took the beatings against Holmes. He didn't 559 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,559 really take a beating against Burbick. He actually didn't look 560 00:25:24,559 --> 00:25:27,680 that horrible against Burbick, as crazy as it sounds. But 561 00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:31,039 those two fights probably should never have happened. But the 562 00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:35,519 The Thriller in Manila, again, my opinion, took so much 563 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:39,759 out of Ali, took so much out of Frasier that 564 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,720 it probably that should have been. It was a great 565 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:44,960 I mean, it is an unbelievable fight. It's just mesmerizing 566 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:45,920 type of battle. 567 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: Especially when you take all the factors into account of 568 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,160 the scorching heat and the fact that Fraser basically could 569 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,160 not see in the rounds of the fight. Yeah, and 570 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,400 the and the hatred these two guys had for each 571 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,319 other all through out. 572 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,319 Speaker 3: Their careers and even post careers. 573 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,759 Speaker 1: So great nostalgia here for this sharing the time on it. 574 00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:10,240 It's wild that the anniversary of the two fights of 575 00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:13,279 the Thrilling Manila and then Holmes destroying Leir within what 576 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,720 a day of each other, So it's five years apart. 577 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,680 Crazy crazy on that listen, great stuff. Always always love 578 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:24,160 doing the nostalgic thing. 579 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,839 Speaker 2: By the way, I may say also it may be 580 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:29,440 a few days between those two fights, but Ali fought 581 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,519 in that same time frame because the Kenny Norton fight 582 00:26:31,599 --> 00:26:33,640 was on September twenty eighth, so a few days earlier. 583 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:36,000 That's the Yankee stad What's the date. 584 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,839 Speaker 3: On the Spinks revenge fight in September of seventy eight. 585 00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 2: It's September. That was September fifteenth. 586 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:42,759 Speaker 3: September fifteenth, so, and even. 587 00:26:42,599 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 2: September twenty ninth of nineteen seventy seven, that was the 588 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,000 Ernie Shavers fight that he had defending the title. So 589 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,000 he was keeping to that sort of I guess, I 590 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:51,960 don't know if it was on purpose. 591 00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:55,279 Speaker 1: The Greatest did not shy away from fighting anybody. He 592 00:26:55,319 --> 00:26:58,799 fought everybody seemingly in his era, including this epic fight 593 00:26:58,839 --> 00:26:59,480 with Joe Fraser. 594 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,599 Speaker 2: Ask you, I mean, is there a single heavyweight of 595 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,039 consequence in that time frame, from like say, the late 596 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,440 sixties through like till like nineteen eighty ish nineteen, like 597 00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:12,680 late seventies that he didn't fight. No, The answer is no. 598 00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:15,319 He fought everybody, Yes, and that's one of the reason. 599 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:16,720 And he beat them. 600 00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 3: He beat almost all of them, even if. 601 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 2: He lost to like, you know, Fraser, he certainly because. 602 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:24,319 Speaker 1: Berbick and Holmes, the last two are the only two 603 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,279 he didn't avenge. He obviously avenged the Fraser loss, he 604 00:27:27,319 --> 00:27:28,759 avenged the Norton loss. 605 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: Career, he fought Holmes and Burbick. I mean not the 606 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,960 Burbick became a great fighter, but I would consider them 607 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,240 to not even really be truly of his era. They 608 00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:40,720 were they were like of the next era. 609 00:27:40,839 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 3: Yes, I would agree with that. 610 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 2: And the interesting thing, and I wrote about this back 611 00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:46,559 in the day when I was at ESPN when Trevor 612 00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:51,000 Burke was killed, that he is the the bridge, if 613 00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:54,400 you will, between the two ears, because he retired Ali 614 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,400 and lost the title to Tyson. Yeah, so that's the 615 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,839 bridge between those two great eras, those two great fighters, 616 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:01,559 and those eras of boxing. 617 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: Great stuff on the Nostalgia Again, thank you to the 618 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,680 podcast audience for bearing with us on the Nostalgic podcast here, 619 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,799 and we pledge that as October rolls on and there's 620 00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:15,480 more important and significant fight cards going on, not just 621 00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:17,880 in the US but worldwide, we'll have more on that. 622 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:20,759 For now, Big Dan, thank you for the trip down 623 00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,200 memory lane about the thrilla in Manila and the end 624 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,640 of Muhammad Ali's career in the years after that and 625 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:27,519 the fights after that. 626 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 3: All good stuff with this have. 627 00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:31,599 Speaker 1: A good week, my friend. Thank you for this again. 628 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,599 Soon there we go, There goes Big Dan Rayhiel, I'm 629 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,000 merely TJ Reeves. So thank you for finding us here 630 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:41,759 as part of the Fight Preach Unit podcast here on 631 00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:43,519 this Big Fight Weekend podcast feed. 632 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:45,599 Speaker 3: We're back again soon enough. 633 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: But we've been talking Thrilla and Manila nostalgia. I don't 634 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,000 want to accept it's fifty years on, but it's fifty 635 00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:54,440 years later. It's great stuff tonight being nostalgic. Thank you 636 00:28:54,519 --> 00:28:55,559 for being with us.