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<v Speaker 1>Oh hey, it's your mom's neighbor who dresses up that

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<v Speaker 1>ceramic goose on our porch. Ali Ward, I'm back with

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<v Speaker 1>another episode fiery, one of ologies. This is one of

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<v Speaker 1>those very very many years in the making episodes where

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<v Speaker 1>as soon as I decided to make this podcast ology,

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<v Speaker 1>so I was like, I got a hit up this

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<v Speaker 1>expert and I put them on a list. This interview

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<v Speaker 1>it's electric, okay, So fulmonology, let's get into it. Very

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<v Speaker 1>much a thing. It's the science of those streaks in

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<v Speaker 1>the sky and it comes from the Latin word fulgaa,

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<v Speaker 1>which means to shine or to flash. Also, if you

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<v Speaker 1>have a fear of thunder and lightning, you're not alone.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm looking straight at you, my dog Remy, and also

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<v Speaker 1>my dear sister friend Shannon Feltis you have something that

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<v Speaker 1>is called coronophobia. It's also inexplicably named astrophobia, brontophobia, and pnotrophobia.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's learn a little bit more about it. So

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<v Speaker 1>kick your boots up, lean back on your porch chair,

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<v Speaker 1>and enjoy some facts about thunder and lightning and storms

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<v Speaker 1>and volcanoes and of course wildfires with lightning scientists and

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<v Speaker 1>your favorite folmonologist Chris Gizzigi.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is Chris Gigi pronounce he He.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you grow up with with fires and lightning really

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<v Speaker 1>on your radar on your doppler since you were a kid,

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<v Speaker 1>or where did you start getting into this?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's you know, it's funny because California in general,

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of people think, oh, yeah, California's kind of boring.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe they got some earthquakes here and there too.

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<v Speaker 3>So growing up in Sonoma County, I really don't remember

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of fire activity. We don't really get too

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<v Speaker 3>much thunder, and it was one of those things where

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<v Speaker 3>we're just like, oh, you know, at the time, being

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<v Speaker 3>a firefighter would be cool. Maybe I'll be able to

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<v Speaker 3>do that, you know, kind of macho and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>let's get out there. Yeah, bro, firefighting. It really wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>until maybe later years of high school or I started thinking, ah,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, that'd be kind of cool, and then you

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<v Speaker 3>go to college and I'm like, wow, Actually, the science

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<v Speaker 3>of this stuff is a lot more fascinating to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Ah. And so how much of your work deals with

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<v Speaker 1>fire science and how much deals with lightning or is

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<v Speaker 1>it kind of an equal amount.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of an equal amount.

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<v Speaker 3>My research in particular is more lightning and we look

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<v Speaker 3>more at the electrical magnetic properties of it. Let's say

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<v Speaker 3>we're trying to figure out a way to build more

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<v Speaker 3>confidence in our lightning models for prediction, more projections, and

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<v Speaker 3>then we relate that mostly to to a typical quote

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<v Speaker 3>unquote would be fire season, which is usually your late

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<v Speaker 3>spring or summer months through fall. We come up with

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<v Speaker 3>some sort of projection system to say, all right, these

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<v Speaker 3>areas have high risk of lightning, and because during these

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<v Speaker 3>months when these certain conditions are met, lightning caused fires

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<v Speaker 3>could be issues here.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, this is a huge issue, but we're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>put a pin in it for a second and get

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<v Speaker 1>to the basics of lightning. What does it look like,

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<v Speaker 1>how does it work? And is the sky mad?

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<v Speaker 2>Bro?

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<v Speaker 1>What exactly is lightning? Where is it going?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? So the story of lightning?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yes, okay, So to kind of set a tone here,

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<v Speaker 3>the way I think of the process of lightning happening

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<v Speaker 3>is I think about all these little molecules and particles

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<v Speaker 3>that are happening within the cloud and happening.

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<v Speaker 2>Within the atmosphere, and.

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<v Speaker 3>Are you know, flowing in the earth, And I always

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<v Speaker 3>like to think of them as an emoji, where as

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<v Speaker 3>little emojis running around with different smiley faces or positive

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<v Speaker 3>charge and negative charges, and you know, and they have

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<v Speaker 3>this goal in life, and that's to find find something

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<v Speaker 3>of the opposite charge and connect with it and do

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<v Speaker 3>this little dance, and then they go into the great

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<v Speaker 3>beyond afterwards wherever that is, whatever they're doing, whatever they're

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<v Speaker 3>doing there. So lightning is it's a development of a

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<v Speaker 3>certain cloud type called cumulatim miss clouds. And what happens

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<v Speaker 3>is within these clouds, the clouds formed because we typically

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<v Speaker 3>have updrafts of air. Warm air rises, so we get updrafts,

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<v Speaker 3>and as it rises, it runs into the altitude, so

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<v Speaker 3>you get higher up and higher up it gets a

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<v Speaker 3>little colder, and so as that air rises, it kind

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<v Speaker 3>of cools and condenses and a little droplets form around, particulates,

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<v Speaker 3>little ice crystals can form, and they're banging around in there,

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<v Speaker 3>having a good old time, hitting each other, bumping, doing whatever.

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<v Speaker 3>And and at that point you kind of you start

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<v Speaker 3>to build up like this static charge. It's electrostatic charge.

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<v Speaker 3>It's in the clouds. As electrons start to get stripped

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<v Speaker 3>or transferred from one to the other. And so during

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<v Speaker 3>this process, eventually what happens is these clouds when they're

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<v Speaker 3>starting to get ready, when they're priming themselves for a

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<v Speaker 3>lightning event, they separate themselves. So the negative charges go

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<v Speaker 3>down towards the bottom of the cloud and the positive

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<v Speaker 3>charges go towards the middle of the top of the cloud.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is because what weather is, it's a neutralization process.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're trying to get these electrons that are up

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<v Speaker 3>in the cloud down to Earth and want to neutralize

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<v Speaker 3>themselves at Earth, bring them back to where they belong,

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<v Speaker 3>so they separate themselves up there, and then at the

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<v Speaker 3>same time they're separating themselves in other clouds, or they're

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<v Speaker 3>separating themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>At the ground.

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<v Speaker 3>So on the ground level you might have the electrons

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<v Speaker 3>will actually get pushed down further to further lowers of

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<v Speaker 3>the ground, which leaves nothing but a positive charge stuck

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<v Speaker 3>at the surface. Just opposites attract like charges repel each other.

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<v Speaker 3>So the electrons in the cloud are going to help

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<v Speaker 3>push those down, those electrons in the ground down even

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<v Speaker 3>further into the ground, and that leaves a nice positive

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<v Speaker 3>charge on the surface. So what happens then is once

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<v Speaker 3>everything gets kind of built up, then those charges are

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<v Speaker 3>gonna look to connect somewhere, and so sometimes they're gonna

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<v Speaker 3>interconnect within the cloud. Sometimes they're gonna connect between one

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<v Speaker 3>cloud and another, which is cloud to cloud, or sometimes

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<v Speaker 3>they're going to try and connect with the charges that

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<v Speaker 3>are on the ground, and that would be cloud to

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<v Speaker 3>ground lighting.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, So these ice particles are just having an

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<v Speaker 1>airborne mashpit. Some are losing electrons, some are gaining them,

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<v Speaker 1>and this tension builds and then the moshpit divides with

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<v Speaker 1>the negative charges heading to the bottom. Now, as for

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<v Speaker 1>cloud to ground lightning, electrons on the Earth's surface get

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<v Speaker 1>pushed further into the ground. So positive charge are kind

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<v Speaker 1>of simmering on the ground and they have to meet

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<v Speaker 1>each other and then boom, lightning strikes to neutralize it,

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<v Speaker 1>and the mash pit goes wild. They love it, and

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<v Speaker 1>then they're like, you know.

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<v Speaker 3>The ones coming from the cloud to the ground. What

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<v Speaker 3>I picture is is after enough electrostatic charges has built

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<v Speaker 3>up in the clouds, they're not ready to go, and

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<v Speaker 3>you have something called step leaders and streamers, and these

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<v Speaker 3>are kind of the leading molecule, the leading chargers that

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<v Speaker 3>are getting out there and ready to go.

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<v Speaker 1>So these are step leaders that reach down toward the

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<v Speaker 1>ground and streamers down below that reach up.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I picture these these little charges strapping on

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<v Speaker 3>a helmet, putting on their goggles, and the step leaders

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<v Speaker 3>are up in the cloud and they're shouting out at

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<v Speaker 3>the streamers down in the ground, you know, step leader

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<v Speaker 3>to streamer leader, step leader to streamer leader over streamer,

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<v Speaker 3>two step leader, streamer two step leader, coffee dot, bring

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<v Speaker 3>to engage, all right. When they turn around and they

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<v Speaker 3>get all the other electrons riled up, Yeah, let's go.

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<v Speaker 3>So then they throw on some heavy metal music and

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<v Speaker 3>start They gets for that. Yeah yeah, so they you know,

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<v Speaker 3>and they take off and they the step leaders kind

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<v Speaker 3>of the initiator of these lightning strikes, and so they

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<v Speaker 3>take off towards the ground, and they have no idea

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<v Speaker 3>where they're going. They have no idea where these other

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<v Speaker 3>charges are on the ground because there's such a distance

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<v Speaker 3>between them. They can only really communicate about fifty meters

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<v Speaker 3>or so. So that's why you start to see lightning

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<v Speaker 3>in jagged forms, because it's these uh, these electrons trying

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<v Speaker 3>to reach the ground that are trying to find the

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<v Speaker 3>opposite charge.

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<v Speaker 2>But really can't.

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<v Speaker 3>So they shoot out intervals and they take this jagged

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<v Speaker 3>path until eventually they connect with it and then they

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<v Speaker 3>meet together and the streamers, so the charges on the

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<v Speaker 3>ground will actually reach up sometime and try and meet

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<v Speaker 3>them at a certain point.

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<v Speaker 2>Cool.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Now, what about like dry lightning or heat lightning,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of lightning that we've had in California lately

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<v Speaker 1>that has been sparking fires.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, dry lightning is it's basically just lightning with very

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<v Speaker 3>very minimal.

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<v Speaker 2>To no precipitation.

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<v Speaker 3>So what happens is you get your typical thunderstorm build up,

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<v Speaker 3>but the precipitation evaporates before it gets to the ground,

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<v Speaker 3>and that's when you see clouds that are called virga,

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<v Speaker 3>and virga is just just a formation, so it looks

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<v Speaker 3>like stuff's coming out of the cloud, but then it

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<v Speaker 3>evaporates and you still get lightning at the same time

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<v Speaker 3>because there's such a build up of charge going on

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<v Speaker 3>up there in the atmosphere.

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<v Speaker 1>Any How, hot is a lightning strike. I've read that

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<v Speaker 1>it's potentially hotter than the sun.

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<v Speaker 3>Hotter than the surface of the Sun. So yeah, so

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<v Speaker 3>it can reach up to like fifty to sixty thousand

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<v Speaker 3>degrees fahrenheit. Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know that's nuts. And so you've got that

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<v Speaker 1>striking a dry hillside and it's just like a like

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<v Speaker 1>tinder box.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, So those are one of the things I look

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<v Speaker 3>for in fire weather under certain types of red flag

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<v Speaker 3>conditions is the possibility of dry lightning.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, we're going to get back to fires in a bit,

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<v Speaker 1>but first, what about counting lightning and thunder? We've seen

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<v Speaker 1>it in a million movies. You count, you can do

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<v Speaker 1>a calculation. You can know how far away the storm is,

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<v Speaker 1>if it's coming or going. Is that flim flam or

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<v Speaker 1>is that real deal?

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<v Speaker 2>No? Typically, you actually kind of can.

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<v Speaker 3>So the general rule is that you see a lightning

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<v Speaker 3>strike and you count, and every five seconds is about

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<v Speaker 3>a mile okay, yeah, And so if you're outside or

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<v Speaker 3>whatever you want to know if it's safe to go

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<v Speaker 3>out side, then you generally try and get to a

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<v Speaker 3>point where you see lightning but don't hear any thunder.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh good to know. So it's far enough away where

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<v Speaker 1>it's not going to come and get you. Yeah, does

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<v Speaker 1>it usually want to discharge or connect with a charge

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<v Speaker 1>that's higher up? Like, is that why there's lightning rods,

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<v Speaker 1>or do trees get zapped a lot?

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<v Speaker 3>So the reason we have lightning rods or the reason

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<v Speaker 3>that a very tall tree might be one of the

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<v Speaker 3>worst spots to stand under or isolated tall trees is

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<v Speaker 3>they're providing a path.

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<v Speaker 2>Of least resistance.

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<v Speaker 3>So when these storms come, these charges from the ground

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<v Speaker 3>are able to kind of flow up into those places

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<v Speaker 3>and connect with the lightning that's coming out of the atmosphere.

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<v Speaker 3>Because they happen to be tall, the charges are able

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<v Speaker 3>to meet a little bit earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>There.

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<v Speaker 1>We are about to get to listener questions, but before

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<v Speaker 1>we do, we're going to hear about sponsors of the

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<v Speaker 1>show who have some deals for you. Those deals make

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<v Speaker 1>it possible for us to throw some cash at worthwhile

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<v Speaker 1>nonprofits each other episode, and this week Chris asked that

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<v Speaker 1>it goes to international relief teams whose mission is to

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<v Speaker 1>alleviate the suffering caused by poverty and disaster around the globe.

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<v Speaker 1>So Jichang, keep doing good stuff, y'all. Now you may

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<v Speaker 1>hear about some sponsors who enable us to not freak

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<v Speaker 1>out about giving away money every week. All right, Questions

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<v Speaker 1>from our loyal Patreon folks Okay, I'm going to dive

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<v Speaker 1>in to the lightning round if he will correct and

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<v Speaker 1>just whatever answers strike, you go for it the worst, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Emily A wants to know is it true that thunder

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<v Speaker 1>is the sound of lightning? And a few other people

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to know first time question askers and boot quakers

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<v Speaker 1>Luna Lowry and Kate h why it's so scary? Why

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<v Speaker 1>is thunder scary? Any idea? Is it a certain like

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<v Speaker 1>frequency or is it just because it's so loud?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'd be right. Some might find it scary.

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<v Speaker 3>I would find it extremely fascinating and joyous, somewhat of

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<v Speaker 3>an adrenaline Russia at certain moments. Yeah, but yeah, thunder

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<v Speaker 3>is the sound of lightning because without lightning you don't

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<v Speaker 3>have thunder, kind of.

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<v Speaker 2>Like we talked about.

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<v Speaker 3>And because lightning there's so much energy and so much

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<v Speaker 3>heat that is created by lightning that energy, the air

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<v Speaker 3>around it cannot expand fast enough, so pressure is shot

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<v Speaker 3>out around these areas where lightning strike has just gone

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<v Speaker 3>down and produces a shock wave, and that shockwave becomes

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<v Speaker 3>a sound wave, and so that's what we hears thunder.

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<v Speaker 3>It can be really scary because the ground is shaking,

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<v Speaker 3>the airs rumbling, So yeah, I guess it could be scary.

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<v Speaker 1>A bunch of people. Sam Healey first time question asker

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<v Speaker 1>JJ Pierce Chris Moore for some question Asker Rachel Dashiel

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<v Speaker 1>and Asia Jaeger wanted to know about hair standing up

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<v Speaker 1>during a thunderstorm, and Sam says, my shoulder length hair

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<v Speaker 1>was standing completely on end once when I was standing

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<v Speaker 1>in a field during a thunderstorm, and I found out

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<v Speaker 1>later that was not a good sign. I was fourteen,

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<v Speaker 1>and so O forgive my ignorance, But if you're around

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<v Speaker 1>something dangerous like a lightning storm, or does your hair

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<v Speaker 1>just statically kind of do that.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's a reaction to the static that's in the atmosphere.

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<v Speaker 3>So what's happening during a lightning event is you're producing

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<v Speaker 3>something that's electric and magnetic, and there's electrostatic that's happening

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<v Speaker 3>before these lightning strikes are coming, or as a storm

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<v Speaker 3>is approaching. So if there's a storm approaching, especially if

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<v Speaker 3>there's that much build up of an electrical charge the

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<v Speaker 3>static in the atmosphere, yeah, your hairs are gonna rise

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<v Speaker 3>right on up, just like the old you know, rub

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<v Speaker 3>a balloon on the carpet, put on your head and

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<v Speaker 3>watch your hair go all over the place.

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<v Speaker 1>Does that mean you should run for cover somewhere, preferably

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<v Speaker 1>not under a big tree that's by itself.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, unless those are just your spidy senses

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<v Speaker 3>tingling a little bit, i'd probably, you know, move because

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<v Speaker 3>it's definitely a sign that there's something electrically going on

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<v Speaker 3>in the atmosphere, and you don't want to be around

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<v Speaker 3>when those when those lightning strikes come down.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, a few people Metal and Lewis and Markshavaz, Metal

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<v Speaker 1>and Lewis. Personal question asker want to know about volcanic

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<v Speaker 1>lightning or wildfire smoke inducing lightning? Does that happen?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Yeah, absolutely so.

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<v Speaker 3>What you have is during a fire, especially, is fire's

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<v Speaker 3>burning and it's releasing a lot of energy through heat

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<v Speaker 3>and moisture. So much energy and so much heat. And

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<v Speaker 3>you see this more often on really really hot fires

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<v Speaker 3>that are burning really really hot. We get something called pyroconvection,

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<v Speaker 3>which is eventually that heat and that moisture starts to

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<v Speaker 3>rise because hot air rises with the cooler air and

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<v Speaker 3>kind of like a typical thunderstorm, as it arises, it

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<v Speaker 3>starts to condense and it starts to form cumulus clouds

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<v Speaker 3>or pyrocumulus clouds. And the crazy thing is that the

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<v Speaker 3>updrafts of this hot air rising, the updrafts of these

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<v Speaker 3>suckers can reach like up to one hundred miles per hour.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So there's just there's so much going in there.

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<v Speaker 3>So if the fire continuously pumping that heat and that

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<v Speaker 3>moisture into these cumulus clouds, they keep growing and growing

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<v Speaker 3>and growing, and you get more vertical movement until eventually

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<v Speaker 3>pyrocumulanimous cloud is formed, and then you start to get

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<v Speaker 3>kind of that charge the charge separation. You get the

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<v Speaker 3>banging around of those those particles up there produced from

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<v Speaker 3>the ash and from the smoke that allow the moisture

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<v Speaker 3>to kind of condense on them, which then helps create

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<v Speaker 3>the passing of charges. Like we talked about, you'll get

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<v Speaker 3>lightning from that, or you can get lightning from that,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's very similar kind of with volcano. It was

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<v Speaker 3>because volcanoes so much heat and they're releasing all that

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<v Speaker 3>gas and the ash material creating these really dense smoke plumes. Ooh,

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<v Speaker 3>so it's really cool. Yeah, pictures of volcanic lightning are

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<v Speaker 3>actually really sick. I don't know if you or anybody

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<v Speaker 3>out there listening has ever seen pictures of volcanic lightning

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<v Speaker 3>if you haven't looked it up, because.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I looked it up and it's true. Volcanic lightning

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<v Speaker 1>pictures are hella suite and they look like if a

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<v Speaker 1>mountain had a midlife crisis and decided to become a

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<v Speaker 1>heavy metal disco like smoke machine, strobe lights danger like

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<v Speaker 1>if you looked through the plumes of ash, there has

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<v Speaker 1>got to be a yetty in there doing a guitar solo.

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<v Speaker 1>I have just a couple more questions from listeners because

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<v Speaker 1>I know I'm just I literally we could go on

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<v Speaker 1>for hours, okay. Elizabeth Edwards and Rachel and Maria Joora

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<v Speaker 1>Vivillah Elizabeth Rachel, both first time question askers, wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>know a little bit more about like what percentage of

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<v Speaker 1>wildfires are caused by lightning strikes globally and also are

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<v Speaker 1>these wildfires changing because of climate change? And should we

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<v Speaker 1>be using more indigenous land management to kind of prevent

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<v Speaker 1>the big burns.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been waiting for a question like this, ha ha, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>we know climate's going to come into it. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not quite sure exactly what the global statistics are.

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<v Speaker 2>In the US. I know.

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<v Speaker 3>Roughly eighty to ninety percent of fires are caused by

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<v Speaker 3>humans and then the other percent caused by lightning, so

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<v Speaker 3>ten to twenty percent. And we actually don't mind lightning

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<v Speaker 3>cause fires unless they're during events such as the one

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<v Speaker 3>that we just had here in California, or unless it's

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<v Speaker 3>a fire itself producing some sort of lightning activity, because

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the light cause fires that happens tend

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<v Speaker 3>to happen in remote areas where we're trying to get

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<v Speaker 3>around to this. Okay, if it's happening in an area

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<v Speaker 3>far off somewhere in the mountains, let it burn, let it,

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<v Speaker 3>let it ravage the fuel and take over.

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<v Speaker 1>So Chris says that lightning caused fires really become an

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<v Speaker 1>issue when they're related to an event like the one

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<v Speaker 1>we had recently here in California, where there were hundreds

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<v Speaker 1>of them at once, which with new weather patterns and

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<v Speaker 1>droughts and warmer, drier weather, may happen more often. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>questions I always ask at the end, what is your

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<v Speaker 1>favorite thing about your work or about lightning, or what

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<v Speaker 1>keeps you just gives you butterflies.

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<v Speaker 3>I would have to say just the fascination of it

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<v Speaker 3>and seeing how things are constantly changing and seeing how

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<v Speaker 3>it's impacting society is a big motivational factor because we

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<v Speaker 3>know what's at risk, we know what changes might be

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<v Speaker 3>coming about, we know that they may not be good,

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<v Speaker 3>and so we have a real opportunity to do something.

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<v Speaker 3>We have a real opportunity to help an industry seek

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<v Speaker 3>some sort of answers. Get out there and look at fire,

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<v Speaker 3>tornadoes and fire a world. We get to see lightning

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<v Speaker 3>storms shoot down from the sky. We get to go

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<v Speaker 3>out there during some of these storm events, which I

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<v Speaker 3>know told people you shouldn't do. It's those little bits

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<v Speaker 3>in that field work that's extremely extremely exciting.

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<v Speaker 2>Ugh.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, what is more exciting than something that is

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<v Speaker 1>hotter than the sun? Seemingly random, but science can explain it.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's like, what's more exciting than like bolts

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<v Speaker 1>of electricity coming from the heavens?

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<v Speaker 3>That's rat oh I know, right, yeah, it's super.

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<v Speaker 1>Rat nom jeez, So ask lightning quick people, thundering questions,

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<v Speaker 1>because otherwise the facts will always just be a kind

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<v Speaker 1>of a little cloudy. Now to find out more about Chris.

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<v Speaker 1>You can see the links in the show notes, also

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<v Speaker 1>linked as aliward dot com slash Smologies, which has dozens

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<v Speaker 1>more free kids Safe shorter episodes to blaze through. Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you Mercedes Maitland of Mainland Audio and Zeke Rodriguez, Thomas

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<v Speaker 1>and Jarrett Sleeper of mind Gem Media for editing those.

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<v Speaker 1>And since we like to keep things kind of small

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<v Speaker 1>around here, the rest of the credits are in the

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<v Speaker 1>show notes. But before I go, I like to give

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<v Speaker 1>just a small piece of advice, and this week it's

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<v Speaker 1>that I had to skip a birthday party because I

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<v Speaker 1>was really sick and that was not fun. But the

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<v Speaker 1>good news is is that there's going to be another

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<v Speaker 1>birthday party next year, plenty more of other people's birthday

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<v Speaker 1>parties before that. But remember, you only get one body,

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<v Speaker 1>so you gotta let it rest when the doctor tells

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<v Speaker 1>you to, So don't worry.

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<v Speaker 3>Healing.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just part of living. And I got to do

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<v Speaker 1>it too, Okay, I'll gotta go to it right now.

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<v Speaker 1>Bye Bye.

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<v Speaker 3>A Knowledge.

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<v Speaker 1>Spology Alogy apology Boogie A Knowledge