WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:03.799 Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:05.719 and Lorenzo on this episode, what I want to do 3 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:10.320 is go over more of these actioms of zombie leadership 4 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:13.199 that we started discussing last Monday. You know, we had 5 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:16.760 a considerable amount of feedback from our listeners that liked 6 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:19.559 the discussion and asked for more of them. They you know, 7 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:21.719 there's there's a few of them on this this chart 8 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:23.879 that I found, and they wanted us to go over 9 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:26.760 more of them. And there are specific ones that we had, 10 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:30.480 you know, people mentioned more than others as ones that 11 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.039 they had a maybe a more difficult time wrapping their 12 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:35.479 heads around, and want us to go over what we 13 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:39.039 think about them or why we think that that these 14 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:40.880 are kind of these have been debunked, or these are 15 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:42.880 things that we should let go of and move forward 16 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:45.119 with a different way of thinking. And so I like this, 17 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:47.439 you know, we respond to our listeners and and you know, 18 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:49.600 want to want to meet people where they are. So 19 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:51.759 I want to go over a few more of these 20 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:53.640 axioms of zombie leadership. 21 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:56.799 Yeah, it sounds good. I'm at first when we went 22 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:58.439 through this and talked about it, I was like, this 23 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:00.399 is some good stuff in here, but I think you're like, 24 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:05.840 there's a lot of dialogue that is around. Again, what 25 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:09.319 are the things that we have maybe always subscribed to 26 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:11.719 that we need to second guess and really talk through 27 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:13.439 and figure out? And then what are the things that 28 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:15.000 we know for a fact are going to continue to 29 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.799 be real elements of leadership you know, always maybe or 30 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:20.480 at least much much longer term. 31 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.359 Right. And you know, because you know, this show isn't scripted, 32 00:01:23.719 --> 00:01:26.359 and we don't like kind of go over bullet points 33 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:27.879 in advance of like Okay, you're going to say this, 34 00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:29.480 and then I'm going to say this. We just kind 35 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:32.959 of discuss the topic based on our own thoughts about it, 36 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:36.000 you know. The this this was one of those episodes 37 00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:39.000 last Monday where in my mind what I thought the 38 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:41.400 conversation was going to be about or how engaging it 39 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:43.640 was going to be was like yet, you know, one level, 40 00:01:43.719 --> 00:01:45.719 but I think it was higher than what I thought 41 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:47.920 it was going to be. I think we there was 42 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:50.599 more to discuss than what I thought there was to 43 00:01:50.640 --> 00:01:53.599 discuss when I when I initially thought let's talk about 44 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:56.439 this thing, and so we never that happens and I 45 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:58.680 feel like I wish we had more time to talk 46 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:00.920 about this, that I think it's a good idea to 47 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.040 go back and revisit it again. The first one of 48 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.920 these axioms I want to talk about is this idea 49 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:11.360 that there are specific qualities that all great leaders have. 50 00:02:11.960 --> 00:02:13.400 And you know that if you can look back at 51 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:16.759 over time and and you know, take the leaders. I mean, 52 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:19.080 if if you're listening to the Hacking leadership a long time, 53 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:24.280 you'll remember from maybe twenty nineteen, we did our you know, 54 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:27.240 the list of the ten best leaders of all time 55 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:29.840 throughout the generations. Right, So going back all the way 56 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:34.360 in time to today and looking at how those leaders 57 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.840 have changed, Well, did they share some qualities with each other? Probably? 58 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.080 But does that mean that there are particular qualities that 59 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:46.159 all great leaders have? And the examples given by this 60 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:51.319 by this article are things like intelligence and charisma, And 61 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.439 on the surface, you know, I might think, yeah, I 62 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:57.400 think that's accurate. If I look at the leaders that 63 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:00.719 I think are good leaders that I've ported to over 64 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.400 the years, I can't say that any of them weren't intelligent, 65 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:09.080 weren't intelligent, and weren't charismatic, right, So like so to me, 66 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:11.919 the kind of knee jerk response would be to say, yes, 67 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.319 that sounds accurate. There are particular qualities that all great 68 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:18.560 leaders have, but that's not necessarily the case. What do 69 00:03:18.560 --> 00:03:19.120 you think about this? 70 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.919 Yeah, no, I agree. I think that there's like I 71 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.199 think there are elements that are really easy to overlap. 72 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:28.159 Like I really think that there are things that you 73 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:30.319 think about like leaders in your life, And I like 74 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.319 to ask this question of leaders around like, hey, who's 75 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:35.120 you know, who do you look at do you believes 76 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:37.039 like been the best mentor for you or one of 77 00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:39.159 the best leaders in your life? And then why? And 78 00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:40.800 then what you find out is there's a ton of 79 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.759 things that overlap. But I think for me, a lot 80 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.199 of that overlap is the true kind of pillars of 81 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:52.599 leadership and like kind of that you know that whether 82 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:57.039 not just integrity, not just honesty, a true passion and 83 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.000 care for the individual, but also someone who is willing 84 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:04.520 to challenge them, uh to set the bar higher or 85 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.919 to help them understand what they're capable of. But then 86 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:10.439 I also think though to your point, like you know, 87 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.919 we say things like intelligence, like myers they're they're super smart. Well, 88 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:17.600 how do you measure that what's subjective about that? Like 89 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.959 what is are they? Are they smart on a test? 90 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:24.000 Are they smart in IQ? Are they smart in EQ? 91 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:28.160 Are they smart because they're subject matter experts of the 92 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.560 thing that you're doing and they can help you and 93 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:33.279 you know, and and and show you the ways of 94 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:35.360 doing doing the things that you want to get done. 95 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:38.920 Like I just I think that there are again there 96 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:43.399 are pieces of this that are really really clear and 97 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:45.360 and I don't know that they change much. But then 98 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.480 there are things that we have to say, well, is 99 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.120 being the smartest person the best leader? And has that 100 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:54.800 changed over time? And have we learned from the fact that, 101 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:57.240 like you know, for a long time, you take your 102 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.639 best individual contributor, the person who knew the most about 103 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:02.800 the thing or the system or the process or whatever 104 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:05.480 it is, and then you make them the leader. And 105 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:07.360 then most of the time or some of the time, 106 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:09.759 they get really frustrated with people that don't do it 107 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:11.279 as well as they do, they don't do the way 108 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:13.480 that they did it right, like like they So again 109 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:20.160 we say that it's about intelligence or or understanding or knowledge, 110 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:23.560 and we say that that that world makes sense. Yes, leaders, Yeah, 111 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.759 that be knowledgeable, that's a good thing, But what's the context, 112 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:29.439 what's the element of this? Has have we seen it 113 00:05:29.480 --> 00:05:31.800 actually have a positive impact on leadership or do we 114 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.120 have a lot of examples where that has not worked 115 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:36.399 out in the way that you would expect it to 116 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:39.360 work out when we tie you know, a leader to 117 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.800 just you know, the the nomenclature or the word that 118 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:46.199 we think that they are not realizing that how they 119 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.519 apply what that is to people is a larger factor, right, 120 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:49.959 And I. 121 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:52.279 Look at it in the context of you know, you 122 00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.879 talk about your three pillars of leadership, right, vision, clarity, 123 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:56.879 and support, And you mentioned it briefly at the beginning 124 00:05:56.879 --> 00:05:59.800 here about the things that you look for from leaders 125 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:02.439 and and the things that you look for from leaders 126 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:07.120 they aren't they aren't character traits. They're actions like vision, 127 00:06:07.160 --> 00:06:10.839 clarity and support are actions not character traits. Right there there, 128 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.079 you could find two people, one that you might consider 129 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:18.360 incredibly intelligent and one that you might consider not as intelligent, 130 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:22.800 and and they both technically have the ability to provide 131 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:26.079 a vision, to provide clarity, and to provide support. That 132 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.120 that the things that you're looking for leaders to deliver on, 133 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.839 they they don't necessarily have to rely on a particular 134 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:37.680 trait they have to rely on a on an ability 135 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:42.519 to do certain actions and deliver certain things. But but 136 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:45.839 there are so many different traits that you could over 137 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:49.120 or under index on that to try to define this 138 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:52.279 as there are there's even one trait that you could 139 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:54.879 say in order to be a great leader, you have 140 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.160 to have this thing. I don't think there is. I 141 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.800 don't think there is. I think there's there's there's a 142 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:04.199 There are enough options out there that you could be 143 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:07.639 that you could have in terms of traits to where 144 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:11.240 there there's a the then diagram of it is huge. 145 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.759 And as long as you're able to deliver on certain things, 146 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:18.160 then that makes you a good leader, not you know 147 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.279 whether you have a specific trait, because I'll tell you 148 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:22.680 I know some pretty intelligent people who couldn't lead a 149 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:26.199 team to save their lives. Yeah, exactly. You know like that, 150 00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.439 you can't you can't make it a causal relationship, because 151 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:32.279 then that's when you start to fall into the trap 152 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:35.600 of promoting the wrong people, because you're promoting people based 153 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.839 on a character trait and not based on an ability 154 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.959 to deliver certain outcomes or do certain actions. And so 155 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:44.680 I think this, I like this idea of kind of 156 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:48.680 decoupling the two. That there are certain character traits that 157 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:52.519 I think think are desirable, they're desirable to have. But 158 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:55.160 but to to say to somebody that they can't be 159 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.000 a great leader because they don't over index on this, 160 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:00.639 or to assume they're going to be a great leader 161 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:03.279 because they do over index on it, that's when you 162 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:06.639 fall into a trap. As opposed to making the goal 163 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:10.879 or the focus on a particular set of outcomes and actions, 164 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:12.759 as opposed to as opposed to character traits. 165 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.480 Yeah, I'm I'm a fan too. Have we looked at 166 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:19.199 even like larger leadership assessments and kind of you know, 167 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:21.600 Myers Briggs and a lot of the ones where it's 168 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:23.959 like a whole lot of factor's, a whole lot of questions, 169 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.759 a whole lot of like how do you see who 170 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:28.920 you are and how you lead and what you do? 171 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:31.959 And then and then it kind of like accepting that 172 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:33.600 as who you are as a leader, and then what 173 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:35.320 are the things that you can do well and what 174 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:36.840 are the things that you have to be conscious of 175 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:40.360 or work on or surround yourself with other people who 176 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:42.000 have those types of strengths. Like I think to me 177 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.000 that that is the best way to allow people to 178 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.080 number one, be themselves, but the number two not subscribe 179 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.519 to kind of these terms or just you know, like 180 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:57.320 we have to like here's the five you know, to 181 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:59.480 your point, here's a five characteristics that we must have 182 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.000 in a leader. Well, okay, I mean I could probably 183 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:04.600 name those characteristics in a negative way, or I could 184 00:09:04.600 --> 00:09:07.320 say that those things might be like overused to a degree. 185 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.399 So if that's the case, and it's more about I 186 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:12.840 think the impact you want to have on the team. 187 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:15.559 We're looking for a leader who does these things. You 188 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.399 motivate people, you inspire people, you have a passion for development, 189 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:23.960 like things that you do as a leader to help 190 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:27.200 your team move forward and progress and get better, versus 191 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:30.840 simply saying these are things that must be in your leadership. 192 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:34.279 Like I think that I think the big ones will 193 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:38.799 always be there. But I think that like the true 194 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:44.080 thinking through and defining the impact you want to have 195 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:49.080 versus maybe the subjective opinion of how these things show 196 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.039 up in you. I think to me, that's a better 197 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.440 move looking forward when it comes to like thinking about 198 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:55.200 assessing and hiring leaders, right. 199 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:57.919 And it also goes back to what the team needs 200 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.519 also and so like, if I look at just the 201 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:03.720 examples given by this article of intelligence and charisma, If 202 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:08.080 I'm looking for a leader to lead a team of 203 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.399 engineers who who work you know, kind of really siloed 204 00:10:12.519 --> 00:10:13.799 or you know, they do a lot of work by 205 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:15.799 themselves and they have to get together and present, but 206 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:18.480 they but they do a lot of their work individually, 207 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:22.840 that group of people might value intelligence a lot more 208 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:25.440 than they value charisma out of a leader they they 209 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:28.840 might have, They might they might not be very charismatic themselves, 210 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.759 and based on the chosen profession they have, and therefore 211 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.679 a leader coming in who over indexes on the charisma 212 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:40.240 part might be seen as almost an outsider, like I'm 213 00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:41.919 I'm not sure if I trust this person to follow 214 00:10:41.919 --> 00:10:43.720 them like they don't. They don't remind me of me. 215 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:47.799 And and I think it's important for for for people, 216 00:10:47.960 --> 00:10:52.000 for company leaders, when making promoting and hiring decisions to 217 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:55.480 look at what the team needs in the moment, not 218 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:57.879 just you know, kind of trying to find to find 219 00:10:57.879 --> 00:11:00.440 something that's universal that you can say on paper good, 220 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:03.279 because that's a that's a way to potentially get the 221 00:11:03.559 --> 00:11:06.759 wrong person the next axium. I want to discuss is 222 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:08.720 this idea that we all know a great leader when 223 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.600 we see one, and that there's you know, consensus that 224 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:13.480 some leaders are better than others. Like if you could 225 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.679 look at two people both in leadership roles and say 226 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:18.679 which one of these people are better? You could watch them, 227 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:21.120 watch them interact with people for a few days or 228 00:11:21.159 --> 00:11:24.799 a week, and that everybody would would agree at the 229 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:27.440 end which one of these people was the better leader 230 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:32.279 than the other. And I think that that this is 231 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:35.159 one of those things that seems accurate to me, Like, like, 232 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.480 why wouldn't you be able to just watch somebody watch 233 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:39.960 two different people over the course of a week interacting 234 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:42.840 with their teams, trying to accomplish things, trying to get 235 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:44.840 things done, and be able to say at the end 236 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:47.159 of it, yeah, this person was clearly a better or 237 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.720 a more effective leader than this person. And the problem 238 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:55.159 with this is that there isn't consensus. They're like because 239 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.720 every every not every only is every person different in 240 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:01.639 terms of what they're looking for, but organizations look for 241 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:06.279 different things at different times, and so consensus is only 242 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:10.440 produced if you if you give privilege to one particular 243 00:12:10.519 --> 00:12:16.080 perspective over another. And in some organizations one perspective is 244 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.440 more valued and in another in other organizations, another perspective 245 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.200 is more valued. And those may change the following year 246 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:24.759 or the following quarter, and that might change what you 247 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:26.840 need in terms of the leader you're looking for. And 248 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:31.159 so this this idea that there's this universal consensus on 249 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.720 how to define this what a great leader is based 250 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.200 on you know, being able to just watch them act. 251 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:38.600 That's that's the problem. 252 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:40.840 Yeah, No, I I agree, and I think not only 253 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:43.600 just the problem, but it's it's to your points around 254 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:48.440 like the constant evolution of what's needed, right, you know, 255 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:51.159 there are I think in my career and I think, 256 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:52.879 what the leaders that I've had, the mentors that I've had, 257 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:56.879 and I've been very fortunate to have a vast majority 258 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:59.120 of them be really really good for me. And again 259 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:01.799 even the ones I would say is like, probably not 260 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:04.519 the greatest leader. I learned and they taught me lessons 261 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.200 about certain things, maybe not intentionally, but hey, that's how 262 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:07.480 it goes. 263 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.879 Sometimes you learned what you wouldn't tolerate out of a leader, 264 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:12.960 and when you start seeing the writing on the wall, 265 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:15.840 it's time to it's time to leave teams or leave companies. 266 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:16.879 Earlier rather than later. 267 00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:20.600 Exactly right, Yes, it's so. But I think that having 268 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:22.879 that over time, I could think of leaders that I 269 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.600 was like, you know, they were the absolute right leader 270 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:28.679 for that moment. They were they were exactly what was 271 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.000 needed in that moment for the work that had to 272 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.799 be done and the things we were looking to accomplish. 273 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:35.759 And then I would fast forward, maybe a couple of 274 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:38.399 years later, and it's like similar work, but things are 275 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:40.679 different now. There's there's a different level of priority. Maybe 276 00:13:40.679 --> 00:13:43.720 it's a different level of urgency. Maybe there's more complexity 277 00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:46.600 to the business that you know didn't exist the couple 278 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.440 of years before, and that now is requiring a different 279 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.519 type of leader. And again not that the other one, 280 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:54.519 the first one would be a bad leader all of 281 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:57.720 a sudden. They just may have had a hard time 282 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:01.519 evolving or changing to what was needed today or during 283 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:04.600 that time period. And I think that's that's where things 284 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.960 like learning, agility, and capability, like that's where those things 285 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.519 actually start to take on more of a need in 286 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:16.440 leadership than maybe what the old you know, you know, 287 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.080 things of that were of value were then, Like you 288 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:20.879 still need to be you still have integrity, you still 289 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:22.279 need to be honest with people. You need to have, 290 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:24.120 you know, a passion for the work. Still need to 291 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.159 be a compassionate person. But now the ability to scale 292 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:34.039 your self and to develop yourself and to be able 293 00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:37.559 to meet the moments is a very different thing as 294 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.399 a result of the ever evolving work and you know, 295 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:44.840 the different generations and the different workforce that is requiring 296 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:47.879 something different of leaders. And I think that's why it's 297 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.600 really hard to say, like, you know, just say this, 298 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:53.639 you know, this is a great leader subjectively, and then 299 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:55.759 now we move that leader to a different place, a 300 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:58.720 different company, different industry, or just fast forward into the future, 301 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.960 we might not have that same opinion because other things 302 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:05.679 around them have changed and adjusted, and maybe that's something 303 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:06.679 that they are struggling with. 304 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:08.960 Right, So I look at I'm not going to name 305 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:12.159 any companies here because I don't want to. I don't 306 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.919 want to have it sound make it potentially accidentally sound 307 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.039 like I'm thinking that one is better than the other. Right, 308 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:21.440 But but if everybody listening just kind of thinks about it, 309 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:25.200 I'm sure you could think of companies where where the 310 00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:30.000 culture of that organization is very top down hierarchical. Right, 311 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:32.039 there's a leader and then that person as a leader, 312 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:34.480 and that person as a leader, and there's a you know, 313 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:36.840 like you're not supposed to go above your leader's head 314 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:38.879 to somebody else. You're supposed to get the problem solved 315 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:41.559 on your team and then have it move up. And 316 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:44.480 and then there are other organizations where it's much more, 317 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.840 much more of a flattened organization, right where you have 318 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:53.159 where people where individual relationships are encouraged amongst all layers 319 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.399 or levels of the organization, where the CEO says I 320 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:58.399 have an open door policy and they actually mean it, 321 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.799 you know, like that those kind of things, and and 322 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.559 you know, one one isn't necessarily better than the other. 323 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:09.080 I might have one that I think is better than 324 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.279 the other for me, like what I would thrive in 325 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.000 versus what I wouldn't thrive in. But I promise you'll 326 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:17.120 find employees in both types of organizations who are thriving 327 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:20.480 and who like that particular way. And so to try 328 00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:22.639 to say that. But but if you took a leader 329 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:25.679 in one of those organizations and stuck them in the 330 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:29.279 other kind of organization, it's likely that leader would fail. 331 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.720 It's likely a leader who is used to a flattened 332 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.480 kind of spiderwebed organization where everybody talks to everybody that 333 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:39.120 if you put them in one that is hierarchical, they 334 00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:42.000 would not thrive. They would eventually leave because they would 335 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:43.559 if they're if they're a great leader, they try to 336 00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.799 change the system, right and if they and if they couldn't, 337 00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:48.720 they would leave. And then vice versa. Take a person 338 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.480 who's very top down hierarchical and put them in an 339 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:55.039 organization where they're expected to have a more democratic style 340 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:57.200 of leadership, right, a more you know kind of let's 341 00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:59.720 talk to everybody, Let's get everybody's consensus. Let's let's get 342 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:03.080 intoinion about somebody, not just prescribe something to them that 343 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:05.599 they might have a very difficult time kind of summoning 344 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:07.640 that in them if they've made a career for themselves 345 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:09.960 in the other way. And again it's not that one's 346 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:12.559 better than the other. It's that the organization has a 347 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:19.160 culture and that that that culture privileges certain perspectives over others. 348 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.839 But what's working for the organization is really objective. Right 349 00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:27.160 Are the is the is the turnover? Low? Is the engagement? High? 350 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.200 Are the are the results there? If if it's a 351 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.920 public organization, is the share price up, like those are 352 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:34.759 things that you look at and if those things are 353 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:38.000 all there, then it's really difficult to argue that the 354 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.839 type of leadership there is not good or is the 355 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:43.960 wrong type of leadership. Uh. And so again this idea 356 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.960 that you can look at a leader and say that's 357 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:48.720 a good leader or this is not a good leader. 358 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.359 I don't like that because you could, you could, you 359 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:54.279 could take the fish out of water, so to speak, 360 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:56.240 and they would they would no longer seem like a 361 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:56.680 good leader. 362 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.000 Absolutely, And with that and brings us to this episodes 363 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.799 one minute hack, but worse for our sponsors. 364 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:03.680 All right, for this episode is one minute hack. Heres 365 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:05.240 want you to do. Go to the link in the 366 00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.960 podcast description and click on it, and it will show 367 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.559 you a picture, a screenshot that I took of this chart, 368 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:13.920 this table of axioms of zombie leadership, and you can 369 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:15.480 read through them. There's there's seven or eight of them, 370 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.319 and and read through them from this from the from 371 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.200 the perspective of thinking about what what are kind of 372 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.279 things that you've brought with you that are leading you 373 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.400 to believe that these things are true? When an actuality 374 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:31.319 they aren't an actuality. There there's information out there that 375 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:33.839 should be able to tell you that this is not 376 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:35.599 true anymore, and you should let go of it. If 377 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:38.519 you're a leader, and especially if you're one that makes 378 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:42.880 hiring decisions, these are very very important to discard because 379 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:45.720 they will they will lead you to make poor hiring 380 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:49.039 decisions and promoting decisions if you are looking for the 381 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:51.640 wrong things in a person, or if you're kind of 382 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:55.359 boxing yourself into a certain thought process or or mental 383 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.519 model when making these decisions versus kind of, you know, 384 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:00.880 opening it up and broadening your respective a little bit 385 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:03.799 on what the potential is versus what the what the 386 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.200 potential isn't when when making these decisions. So go through them, 387 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:08.680 look at them, kind of look at yourself in the 388 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:10.720 mirror little bit, and think about the ones that you've 389 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:12.680 kind of brought with you, because we all do it. 390 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:16.720 We absolutely all have brought these things with us because 391 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:19.920 of our own lived experiences. And they're all different, and 392 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:21.720 some of them are far like there are some that 393 00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.759 I looked at and went, that's ridiculous, I don't think 394 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:25.759 that's a problem anymore. And there are somewhere I looked 395 00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.200 at and went, why do they think think this isn't true. 396 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.559 That's clearly still true, and then we discuss it and go, oh, yeah, 397 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.279 I can see why that isn't true anymore. So we 398 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:34.599 all have our own differences that lead us to believe 399 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:36.519 certain things. And some of these things are going to 400 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:38.640 be much easier to let go of than others, but 401 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:40.559