1 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: And we are back with another edition of the Federalist 2 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,239 Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at The 3 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,000 Federalist and your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. 4 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,439 As always, you can email the show at radio at 5 00:00:32,439 --> 00:00:36,600 the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fbr LST, 6 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,039 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,840 of course to the premium version of our website as well. 8 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,479 Our guest today is Ivan Eland, historian and author of 9 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,320 several books, including his latest Domestic Causes of American Wars, 10 00:00:53,759 --> 00:00:58,240 Economic and political Triggers. Given what is taking place in 11 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,320 the world today and what has taken place for a 12 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:04,480 very long time in the world, it's a good time 13 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:07,439 to have this conversation. Ivan. Thank you so much for 14 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:09,159 joining us in the Federalist Radio Hour. 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on. 16 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: Man you Ben, Well, let's look at the underlying theme 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,640 of your book, and I think this is a critical 18 00:01:17,239 --> 00:01:22,200 conversation to have as we try to remain out of 19 00:01:22,239 --> 00:01:26,560 the major conflicts around the world. President Donald Trump has 20 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,920 done his level best to do that so far in 21 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,400 his second term, as he did in his first term, 22 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,640 but there are a lot of voices out there. You 23 00:01:35,719 --> 00:01:40,959 contend that many US wars over our two hundred and 24 00:01:41,159 --> 00:01:46,799 fifty year history were unnecessary for national security, nor were 25 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:51,959 they as heroic in upholding American values as commonly concluded. 26 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:56,159 And in a lot of this a lot of motivating factors, 27 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,359 of course, and you really stress in your book the 28 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,319 domestic and political factors involved, if you would take us 29 00:02:03,359 --> 00:02:04,120 through all of that. 30 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: Right, Well, we don't think of this. We don't think 31 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,719 of domestic factors or domestic effects as being that important. 32 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:19,159 You know. We see on TV, particularly you know, during 33 00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:24,120 the Afghan and Rock Wars, and even before that in Vietnam, 34 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,840 we saw what was happening over over in those places, 35 00:02:28,199 --> 00:02:33,240 but we didn't really see the domestic you know, causes 36 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,759 or implications of the wars. And this is very important, 37 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,400 because the domestic effects of wars are very probably the 38 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:45,319 most serious that most people don't pay attention to the 39 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,039 erosion of the republic at home because it almost always happens. 40 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,719 And I think that the problems that we have with 41 00:02:51,759 --> 00:02:55,439 the checks and balances now in the system have not 42 00:02:56,199 --> 00:03:01,159 been created by Donald Trump, but you're seeing them more 43 00:03:01,319 --> 00:03:04,599 prominently while he's president, because he is taking a lot 44 00:03:04,599 --> 00:03:08,199 of executive actions, but they go back, I would say, 45 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,840 to the Spanish American War. Those are the roots of 46 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,120 the imperial presidency. And of course the presidency has become 47 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:19,479 much stronger than the founders wanted it to be. The 48 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,199 Article one of the Constitution, they were worried about Congress 49 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,120 being becoming too powerful, and they made an independent executive 50 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,159 and judiciary branches to constrain in Congress. Now where we 51 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,759 have the Congress and the Supreme Court, you know, constrained 52 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,560 the executive. And as I said, this has been going 53 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:40,960 on since. So the Spanish American wars nothing new, It's 54 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,680 just it's been sort of incremental. And this is most 55 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,800 of this is happening. This key problem has happened because 56 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,879 of the wars from the Spanish American War on and 57 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:59,120 so these are very important to pay attention, even to 58 00:03:59,159 --> 00:04:02,520 the worst foreign And we've only had a few instances 59 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,960 of domestic wars, the Civil War and the war against 60 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,639 the Indians, or that you should say, the wars against 61 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,360 the Indians very different tribes. But those are the only 62 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,120 two domestic wars that we've had, really, and the rest 63 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,279 of the foreign wars really and so this is we 64 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,879 pay attention to the foreign aspects of it, but not 65 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:28,240 on the aspects at home and also the politics. It's 66 00:04:28,199 --> 00:04:32,480 it's very strange. You see, the wars are affected by 67 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:39,800 US elections, either getting into them or prosecuting them as 68 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,800 they're going on, and then of course in the aftermath. 69 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,240 And the same is true with the economy. The economy 70 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,399 has a lot to do with the wars as well 71 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,319 that we don't pay attention to the Well. 72 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: There's a fashion of the economy, of course, and I 73 00:04:53,319 --> 00:04:56,360 know you've delved into this in your book that shapes 74 00:04:56,439 --> 00:05:00,199 wars as well. And that is what President I and 75 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,879 how were warned us of so long ago as he 76 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,920 was stepping away from the executive branch. It's the military 77 00:05:06,959 --> 00:05:12,160 industrial complex. It is very real. It was real before 78 00:05:12,519 --> 00:05:20,800 Eisenhower warned of that. It was arguably necessary in a 79 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,120 wartime economy in World War Two. But there are a 80 00:05:24,199 --> 00:05:27,680 lot of industries that said, we can make a lot 81 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,279 of money off of wars, and that certainly has been 82 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,079 the case. We have seen it play out, we're watching 83 00:05:34,079 --> 00:05:36,199 it play out in real time. How much of that 84 00:05:37,199 --> 00:05:39,720 is put into the mix. 85 00:05:41,199 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think, particularly after World War Two, when the 86 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:51,600 military industrial complex really was born during the war, and 87 00:05:51,639 --> 00:05:54,759 the reason for that was that the war was so 88 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,600 big that required for the GDP to go to defense 89 00:05:59,639 --> 00:06:03,879 product that's almost half, and that would never even approach 90 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,839 that before or since. But what happened was the defense 91 00:06:08,879 --> 00:06:14,279 industry was mainly in cities on the coasts and the 92 00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:18,519 Great Lakes. Well, there was so much production needed that 93 00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:24,800 the industry crept up out to suburban ex surban even 94 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:30,959 in rural areas and previous wars before World War Two, 95 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:37,480 what happened was we had commercial industries would Europe for 96 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,519 war production during the war, and then afterwards they would 97 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,360 just go back to whatever they were producing in peace time. 98 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:51,120 But in World War Two, the economy got so militarized, 99 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,600 and of course it did shrink somewhat after World War Two, 100 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,920 but there were a lot of areas outside the cities 101 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,240 which weren't as resilient economic and so they began to 102 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,879 a lot of their members of Congress to you know, 103 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:13,519 keep production high. And then we had so the industry 104 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,000 scaled back a little bit after World War Two, but 105 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,279 didn't go completely back to commercial. And then five years 106 00:07:19,319 --> 00:07:22,560 after World War two, we had the Korean War, and 107 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,800 that's really what nailed down that we were going to 108 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:31,279 have a dedicated defense industry. You say, well, what's wrong 109 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:34,839 with that. The problem that we have now is the 110 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:39,240 defense industry doesn't produce anything commercially, or not much, and 111 00:07:39,279 --> 00:07:41,519 so it's a sort of a ward of the state 112 00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:46,439 and the Pentagon. When Donald Rumsoll was president, even excuse me, 113 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,040 the secretary of Defense, he said, very. 114 00:07:48,879 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: Tellingly, no, no, I think you had it right. 115 00:07:53,639 --> 00:07:56,639 Speaker 2: Well, it seemed like it. Yeah, he and Change were 116 00:07:56,639 --> 00:08:01,360 certainly driving the I Rock work forward. But so Rumsfeld said, 117 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,000 he compared, in fact, on the day before nine to 118 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:11,879 eleven happened, he compared the US defense budget and budgeting 119 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,680 process to the five year plan of the communist world. 120 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,519 They always had five year plans, and he said, we 121 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,120 have a five year plan here at the Pentagony. And 122 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,079 he wasn't being complementary. He was actually trying to reform 123 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,680 that at the time. But he didn't, you know, he 124 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,399 didn't really do that. And so a lot of these 125 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,559 industries don't have much competition and they don't have much 126 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,279 commercial technology. So what you get a taxpayer get is 127 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,960 most weapons systems are way behind schedule. They gradually reduce 128 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,960 what they're going to produce that is the specifications of 129 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,240 what the taxpayer is going to get. And then of 130 00:08:51,279 --> 00:08:55,159 course they did. It's much delayed and over cost cost 131 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,519 overruns our war, so that the industry does not operate 132 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,639 in a very efficient manner. So there's a lot of 133 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:08,159 waste in it. And they are also they build weapons 134 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:13,480 that are either unneeded or overspecified so that they can't 135 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,879 use cheaper commercial technology in there, and and that sort 136 00:09:17,879 --> 00:09:21,320 of thing. So the military industrial complex is a problem, 137 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,279 and it also tends to drive up defense budgets and 138 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:31,080 it also tends to you know, these manufacturers need a 139 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:35,919 war to to to get more production. And so I'm 140 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:39,759 not saying that directly direct warmers, but it just incentive 141 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,720 is there for us to have a more expansive foreign 142 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,360 policy than we probably should, you know, And what are 143 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:49,639 the recent successes that we've had in Afghanistan and rock 144 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,360 O Libya, And to look back in the sixties and 145 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:55,399 seventies the Vietnam, not much success at all in any 146 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,639 of those places. 147 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: Indeed, five year plans and new wrapped in golden chains, 148 00:10:02,159 --> 00:10:06,519 as the Sages Creden's Clearwater Revival told this. Of course, 149 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:11,120 back in the late sixties early seventies. We mentioned the 150 00:10:11,159 --> 00:10:15,840 politics driving a lot of this stuff, and particularly executive 151 00:10:15,879 --> 00:10:20,200 branch politics. I think about they're all kinds of cases, 152 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:21,600 and you lay them out in your book, but I 153 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,279 think about Woodrow Wilson, you know, who campaigned for reelection 154 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,159 to nineteen sixteen. The theme was he kept us out 155 00:10:29,159 --> 00:10:33,080 of war, and then immediately, almost immediately after he became 156 00:10:33,159 --> 00:10:34,720 president of the United States, he got us into the 157 00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:41,039 war or soon thereafter. Wars can be very popular things 158 00:10:41,279 --> 00:10:45,159 for presidents in their polling and in sentiment in general. 159 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,279 So there's another inducement. How much of that has played 160 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,559 out over the history of war making and war fighting 161 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:55,559 in the United States. 162 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:02,519 Speaker 2: Yes, well, sometimes president's wannall boyd war to get reelected, 163 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,919 as Woodrow Wilson did, as FDR did, because if you 164 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:12,279 remember that he FDR said we're not going to get 165 00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:14,600 into War two. It was a similar type of thing. 166 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,559 And there were certainly you say, well, the Japanese attacks 167 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,120 at Pearl Harbor, but there's a lot more to that story. 168 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,159 And also the German start. The war started with Germany 169 00:11:25,519 --> 00:11:32,960 before before December forty one, So sometimes presidents delay the 170 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,679 war start until after they get reelected some but sometimes 171 00:11:38,039 --> 00:11:41,000 presidents get pushed into war, and I would argue that 172 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,399 that's the case of bypolitics. And then that's the case 173 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,879 with the War of eighteen twelve. A Madison, who was 174 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,639 really a Republican in the small our sense, meaning the 175 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:56,440 Republican ideology at that time was to avoid wars because 176 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,879 they led to big government, which of course is a 177 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,840 is one of the biggest cause of big government in 178 00:12:02,879 --> 00:12:06,039 human history and in US history is wars. And we 179 00:12:06,159 --> 00:12:10,240 even you know, even things that we don't think were 180 00:12:10,279 --> 00:12:14,000 related to wars happened during wars. And our current health 181 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,240 system as a result of World War two. Daylight saving 182 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,360 time is a ridiculous thing that was invented during World 183 00:12:21,399 --> 00:12:25,120 War One. Those are just examples. But back in eighteen twelve, 184 00:12:25,919 --> 00:12:29,000 he was reluctant to war initially, but then he discovered 185 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:34,720 that the presidents the parties nominated their presidential candidates at 186 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:43,120 the time in the congressional party caucus. And this impressment 187 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:47,799 of US sailors by the British and the orders in Council, 188 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:53,960 which were trade restrictions that Britain was fighting Napoleon at 189 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:58,240 the time. And this has been going on even before 190 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,360 Napoleon when they were fighting the French Revolutionary Wars. So 191 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:08,480 Britain had had this impressment and orders and council, these 192 00:13:08,519 --> 00:13:14,320 trade researches long before Madison ever became president. But in 193 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,720 eighteen ten there was a very telling development. The warhawks 194 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:25,399 were in their Republican Party or the Democratic Republican Party 195 00:13:25,399 --> 00:13:29,799 as it was called. Then they took power in Congress 196 00:13:30,039 --> 00:13:33,360 and they really pushed Madison. They said, you know, you 197 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:37,039 don't support this going to the war with British, We're 198 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:43,600 going to not renominate for president. So he actually went 199 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:47,120 to war because of that reason. The other example of 200 00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:51,240 that going to war for political reasons is William McKinley. 201 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,080 Same thing happened. He was reluctant to war. He had 202 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,919 been in the Civil War and this was an eighteen 203 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,960 ninety eight with the Spanish American War, and he was 204 00:14:00,159 --> 00:14:03,120 very reluctant to do that, but he was pushed into 205 00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:08,000 it because the Democrats. He was a Republican. The Democrats started, 206 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,600 you know, war mongering, and his Republicans started to get 207 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,879 it very scared because there was a lot of public 208 00:14:15,879 --> 00:14:19,600 support for the war. So he went to war in 209 00:14:19,639 --> 00:14:24,159 eighteen ninety eight. So that he wouldn't get loose Congress 210 00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:27,879 because it was a congressional by election that year. So 211 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,759 you can actually sometimes presidents want to avoid the war 212 00:14:32,879 --> 00:14:35,919 fel after the election, and sometimes they want to do 213 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,039 it before the election, like eighteen twelve and eighteen ninety eight, 214 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,960 so they can, you know, for electoral purposes. It's a 215 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,600 good politics. War, it's a good politics. So it just 216 00:14:44,639 --> 00:14:45,440 depends on the war. 217 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: Are more people learning how to game the system? 218 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 4: The Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. 219 00:14:53,399 --> 00:14:56,240 Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and 220 00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:58,120 the economy and how it affects your wallet. 221 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: The Bureau of Labor Statistics reveal one point one million 222 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,960 Americans have become disabled in the last three months, over 223 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,440 two hundred thousand alone in July. Is America really as 224 00:15:08,559 --> 00:15:10,120 disabled as the data shows? 225 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 4: Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, 226 00:15:12,279 --> 00:15:14,960 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdout 227 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,840 on Wall Street podcast with Chris mccowski on Apple, Spotify, 228 00:15:17,919 --> 00:15:19,200 or wherever you get your podcast. 229 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, the antecedents of the Spanish American are tubious, to 230 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,080 say the very least. If you've read anything on that, 231 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:34,600 and clearly, over history we know that the cause of 232 00:15:35,159 --> 00:15:39,799 what is supposedly the direct cause of the war was 233 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,679 not as it was presented, and we had interesting to note. 234 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,559 The kind of journalism that was going on then in 235 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,919 many regards hasn't changed over the last one hundred and 236 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,480 twenty years or so. But McKinley really was pushed into it. 237 00:15:55,519 --> 00:16:00,440 He really did see the horrors of war firsthand, one 238 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,759 of the most terrific wars, the Civil War. Having thought 239 00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:08,960 in that, but you know, that's the thing. It's it's 240 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:13,279 politics so much of the time, the fear of losing 241 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:19,200 power and position that drives these decisions. But so do 242 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,879 land grabs, and that was a big part of the 243 00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:26,559 Spanish American War and others as well. 244 00:16:26,639 --> 00:16:33,639 Speaker 2: Correct, Yes, yes it was, and it was We got Cuba, 245 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:43,080 Puerto Rico, the Philippines, and we were able to annex Hawaii, 246 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,720 which was defeated before that, the annexation of Hawaii. They 247 00:16:46,879 --> 00:16:51,320 were able to use the war to uh annex Hawaii. 248 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,919 Hawaii wasn't involved in the war, and of course, Q 249 00:16:54,159 --> 00:16:56,440 you say, well, Cuba's not in the US. Well, Cuba 250 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:01,480 became a protect protective protector excuse me of the United States, 251 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,400 so we ran Cuba for decades after that war, so 252 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,039 it never came into the United States. Like Puerto Rico 253 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:11,720 and the Philippines, was an official column, but Cuba was 254 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,359 where the war started really, and the Cuban rebels were 255 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:23,640 able to condense the American public through their public relations 256 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:28,240 people that there was all these atrocities committed by the Spanish. Well, 257 00:17:28,279 --> 00:17:31,119 the Cubans were also committing on a lot of atrocities. 258 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:37,039 And then Spanish fired the general who was supposedly creating 259 00:17:37,039 --> 00:17:40,319 these concentration camps, and they were certainly there were no 260 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,519 picnic to be in them. But the reason they called 261 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:46,079 them concentration camps, not like the ones in Germany, was 262 00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:50,880 because they were trying to concentrate the people in these 263 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:54,480 camps so they could open fire on the rebels and 264 00:17:54,519 --> 00:17:58,640 the people wouldn't be killed, the civilians. But of course 265 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,960 the conditions in the campandpoint very good, so people were dying. 266 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:05,680 But it wasn't because the Spanish were committing all these 267 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,279 atrocities on the civilians. It was because they put them 268 00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:12,759 in this camp to keep them out of the fire 269 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,039 firing against the guerrilla fighters. So this was the same. 270 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,880 This was the same policy that the US newsed in Vietnam, 271 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,440 but they called it strategic hamlet programs instead of concentration camps, 272 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,720 which of course by then have been this term had 273 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,599 been discredited by the Nazis world War two. So this 274 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:38,000 is where it started. And the American press, Pulitzer and 275 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,920 Hearst chains where it was the first national press. Really, 276 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,039 they had these networks of newspapers and they were competing 277 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:55,160 for readers, and they made all these accusations about the 278 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,319 Spanish that weren't They were either partially true or were 279 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,160 just totally made up. They paid people to make up these, 280 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:07,119 you know, hilacious stories that really didn't really weren't true, 281 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,079 and that's how they proceeded. You know, it was a 282 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,839 lying to war. It wasn't the case in the government 283 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,319 was lying this time. But the press called it yellow journalism. 284 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,200 But oftentimes a lot of lives are told in the 285 00:19:23,279 --> 00:19:27,559 world to war. The famous saying, uh, truth is the 286 00:19:27,559 --> 00:19:28,839 first casualty of war. 287 00:19:29,319 --> 00:19:32,599 Speaker 1: It's really true, and it was particularly true then. Yellow 288 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,720 journalism was a great way of putting it. And like 289 00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:39,480 I said, the more things change, the more they stay 290 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:45,519 the same. Remember Pulitzer is the guy, uh, the namesake 291 00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:50,720 of the prize given to all kinds of journalists who 292 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,559 have you know, had some problems with facts, to say 293 00:19:55,599 --> 00:19:58,359 the least, if not the truth in general. They still 294 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:04,799 have been awarded those Pulitzers based on a guy whose 295 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:09,279 publications made up things to help bring the United States 296 00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:13,960 into a war that you could argue was unnecessary. You 297 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,319 can make that argument for a lot of wars, and 298 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,759 you do in your book, of course. Our guest today 299 00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:24,400 is Ivan Eland, historian and author of several books, including 300 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:30,400 his latest Domestic Causes of American Wars, Economic and political Triggers. 301 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,160 One thing you address in one thing that has certainly 302 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,400 been a theme throughout war fighting in the United States 303 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,759 of America is wars often lead to the erosion of 304 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,880 the American founders Constitution and of the civil liberties and 305 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,839 constitutional checks and balances therein while enabling the rise of 306 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,000 an imperial presidency. I think there are myriad examples of that. 307 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,759 There are some tests of that constitution, I think, not 308 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:04,480 necessarily in recent memory, but more recent memory. When I 309 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,880 think of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and the tests 310 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,400 of the power of the executive over the war making 311 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,119 authority of the first branch. If we could, let's delve 312 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,440 into those areas. 313 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the Golf of Tonkin resolution was a very 314 00:21:22,559 --> 00:21:25,799 broad resolution that was passed after there was a minor 315 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:31,079 well there alleged to be two minor incidents where North 316 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:36,839 via these patrol boats attack US destroyers and the second 317 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:44,720 one is very dubious. And LBJ ran with this to 318 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:54,440 get a congressional approval and he famously said, well, the 319 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:59,119 resolution is just like my grandmother's night, and it covers everything. 320 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: Uh he had away with words, didn't they Yes, it 321 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:08,000 certainly did, and some of them were even worse than that. Yes, yes, 322 00:22:08,319 --> 00:22:11,480 so anyway, so anyway, he and one thing he did 323 00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:16,480 was he retaliated even before that with bombing of the 324 00:22:16,519 --> 00:22:18,640 North vietnamees. 325 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,599 Speaker 2: For these little incidents and which no one was killed 326 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:24,759 on and they finally found a bullet hole in one 327 00:22:24,759 --> 00:22:30,240 of the destroyers. But the second one was based on radar. Uh, 328 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,279 a storm came up or something in the radar went 329 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:36,759 uh uh, you know, showed that there was an pack 330 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,799 coming when there wasn't one. But anyway, he got he 331 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,799 was so anxious to get on primetime TV that he 332 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,920 he he sort of did what we've said similar to 333 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,240 what we've seen recently, and that is he went to 334 00:22:54,319 --> 00:22:57,400 the press and said or to the media and went 335 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,599 on national television and said, well, our race, these bombing 336 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,160 raids are on North Vietnamese, on North Vietnam. Are you know, 337 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,640 have you know really you know, bank wrist the enemy 338 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,519 or whatever he said, you know, And unfortunately the planes 339 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:17,920 hadn't got there yet. He was selling a rush to 340 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,960 get on TV bad. The a lot of people got 341 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:24,039 killed because the North Vietnamese were watching the TV two 342 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,440 and they have great they had great Soviet air defenses 343 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,920 back there, and so they shot down some of the 344 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,519 aircraft US aircraft because the president told them that the 345 00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:37,440 attack was coming. So it's this type of thing that 346 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,680 but the resolution. 347 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,079 Speaker 1: And he wanted it in prime time, right, I mean 348 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,000 he wanted because you know, there was not so much 349 00:23:46,079 --> 00:23:48,319 today because we have all these streaming devices, but there 350 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,359 was a prime time when everybody was across the country 351 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,839 was tuned in. So we wanted to make that announcement 352 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,359 when the most people would see it. Unfortunately, the Vietnamese 353 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,519 saw it too. For the Northern Vietnacs, I should say, yes. 354 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: Right, and they said the enemy has a vote. But 355 00:24:03,039 --> 00:24:06,960 the enemy also has a TV set, so that's right. 356 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,000 So anyway, but these are the types of things that happened. 357 00:24:10,319 --> 00:24:13,880 I mean, there's some equally appalling things happened during the 358 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,279 Keupan missile crisis. It wasn't a war, but I had 359 00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:18,960 that as a chapter in the book too. But so 360 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:26,200 we had this really broad resolution. Well, of course, they 361 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:28,720 some of the senators were saying, well, this is kind 362 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,240 of broad. I mean, couldn't this be we escalated the 363 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,559 ground ground forces in Vietnam. And Olbright, who was managing 364 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:39,759 the war at the time he later became an opponent 365 00:24:39,839 --> 00:24:44,039 of the war for Johnson, who's managing the war resolution, 366 00:24:44,559 --> 00:24:48,680 he said, well, yes, that could happen, but they kind 367 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:56,240 of sold it overall. Olbright would say yes, individual questions, 368 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,559 but then they were selling it us. Oh no, there's 369 00:24:58,599 --> 00:25:02,400 going to be no escalation. And he secretly LDJ in 370 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,799 nineteen sixty five, after he won a landslide election in 371 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,119 nineteen sixty four, he escalated the wars pretty much secretly 372 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,400 so that people wouldn't so the Congress. He still was 373 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,000 trying to get his Great Society program through the Congress, 374 00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:23,599 and he didn't want to be shut down before it 375 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,920 was all passed, and he knew that he couldn't have 376 00:25:27,519 --> 00:25:30,920 guns and butter at the same time, so he escalated 377 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,240 secretly and put up half a million American troops in Vietnam. 378 00:25:36,599 --> 00:25:38,480 And you know, of course, then it went downhill from 379 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:40,480 there with Nixon and that sort of thing. 380 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,519 Speaker 1: Yes, it certainly did, and it went downhill precipitously. Now, 381 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,799 I mean, there is a I think some revisionist history 382 00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:54,680 on that front that you know, the protests that were 383 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,759 occurring that started to spark in you know, sixty six, 384 00:25:58,839 --> 00:26:05,279 sixty seven and exploded after the Tet offensive, that Johnson 385 00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:08,480 and his war were lost to the American public. That 386 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:14,799 was not the case. Public opinion still remained in fairly 387 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,559 full support or at least majority support of the war 388 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:21,720 in Vietnam. The conflict, however you want to describe it. 389 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,079 But it's proof positive, of course, or negative, as the 390 00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:31,839 case may be, that wars can be costly for presidencies. 391 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,759 And we learned that in nineteen sixty eight when Johnson 392 00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:38,759 came out with his famous speech saying that he would 393 00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:45,160 not accept the nomination of his party for president. And 394 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,559 some of the communications from that time are just amazing 395 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,640 to see a man who is devoured by really his 396 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,160 own demons over this war. He wanted to get out, 397 00:26:58,279 --> 00:27:02,960 but he just couldn't get out. And I think it's 398 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:08,839 remarkable the toll that wars can have on the presidents 399 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:14,039 who you know, originally benefited from them, but in Johnson's case, 400 00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:16,440 of course consumed him. 401 00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:21,319 Speaker 2: Yes, well, it's even worse than that, because when he 402 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,240 was escalating war, he was desponding that there was no 403 00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:27,799 way out of doing it, and he had just want 404 00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:31,039 to In November of sixty four, he had just want 405 00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:36,480 a landslide victory over Goldwater, just a crushing victory victory, 406 00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:39,640 one of the most one sided elections we've had in 407 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,759 the United States ever. And so there was really no 408 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,319 need to go to war in Vietnam because most people 409 00:27:46,319 --> 00:27:49,359 couldn't at that point, could couldn't tell you where it 410 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,000 was on a map. They knew we had some advisors 411 00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:56,000 and stuff in southern Stasi or maybe, but they didn't 412 00:27:56,079 --> 00:27:59,519 really know why we were there, what we were doing, 413 00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:02,720 and they've oh, he never even heard of Vietnam itself. 414 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,440 So but so there's no public pressure for him to 415 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:10,559 escalate the war, but he did it for purely political reasons. 416 00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:15,160 He thought, well, you know, uh, the Goldwater Republicans are 417 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,519 still around and they want to they'll criticize me. And 418 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,640 also Robert F. Kennedy, he was a political rival in 419 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,519 the Democratic Party of LBJ. He figured, well, he's going 420 00:28:26,559 --> 00:28:30,920 to attack me for losing Vietnam because that was Kennedy's 421 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,640 ramped up the number of advisors in Vietnam, and so 422 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,519 it's kind of kind of a Kennedy War before becoming 423 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:42,359 became LBJ and RK. He figured RFK would you know, 424 00:28:42,559 --> 00:28:48,519 run against him in sixty eight, but by saying, well, 425 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,279 you ruined my my brother's legacy. You know, he took 426 00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:56,279 over from my brother and you ruined it. And but 427 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:01,759 ironically in sixty eight RFK ran for the presidency, but 428 00:29:01,799 --> 00:29:04,680 he ran as a peace candidate to get out of war. 429 00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:08,599 So Johnson, even when he was escalating the war, he 430 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:11,920 just saw no way out of it. But he also 431 00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:16,279 believed in the domino theory, where was it one communist 432 00:29:16,279 --> 00:29:20,680 country when communist it would cause this domino effect that 433 00:29:20,799 --> 00:29:23,880 communism is in the entire region, And that happened in 434 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,440 Laos and Cambodi, but that's where it stopped in the end. 435 00:29:27,599 --> 00:29:31,359 So the Domino would be was sort of discredited during 436 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,839 the Cold War, but Johnson believed in it as well. 437 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,759 Speaker 1: We know that successful prosecution of wars can be very, 438 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:45,839 very good to ratings for presidents. I think of George H. W. 439 00:29:46,119 --> 00:29:50,880 Bush and the Gulf War, and he was riding high 440 00:29:51,519 --> 00:29:56,119 until something else domestically took place, and that was the 441 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:01,599 recession going into the early nineteen nineties. We've learned over 442 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,160 time that it truly is the economy stupid, as James 443 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:13,279 Carvill put it back in the run for Clinton's presidency 444 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,079 the campaign of nineteen ninety two. I guess the question 445 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:26,359 here is how long can presidents expect to have higher 446 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:32,880 popularity ratings even with successful wars? And I think of 447 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:35,160 not just the United States States, but I think of 448 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,880 Winston Churchill is a perfect example of this as well. 449 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,720 The economy trumps everything else, does it? 450 00:30:42,799 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 3: Not? 451 00:30:43,119 --> 00:30:45,759 Speaker 1: Even wars? And even in times of war. 452 00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 2: Yes, that's exactly right. I mean people in the United States, 453 00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:53,680 the voters here usually vote on domestic issues, and I 454 00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:56,119 think they did probably in other countries as well, now, 455 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,640 although that's not my area of expertise, simply because of 456 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,680 their daily lives, they know that the prices are going up, 457 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,799 whether they lost their job or whatever. But they don't 458 00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:09,400 know how many tanks or how many missiles you need 459 00:31:09,599 --> 00:31:13,640 to fight this or that war, and so all they 460 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,599 see is people dying on the screen. The war is 461 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,200 not perceived as being necessary for US security, and it's 462 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,839 dragging on, killing a lot of people. That's when the 463 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,720 bottom drops out of the war. I mean, the bottom 464 00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:35,160 dropped out of the Korean War before LBJ even you know, 465 00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:39,319 was president under Truman and he didn't get real he 466 00:31:39,359 --> 00:31:41,839 didn't get he dropped out of the race as well. 467 00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:44,480 People forget that it's the same. The same thing happened 468 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,440 in the Vietnam Wars happened in the Korean War. And 469 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,240 you know this is so you don't get too much 470 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,599 credit for mean, first of all, even if you do 471 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:01,079 have a smashing battlefield victory like Since Churchill did in 472 00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:03,759 World War Two, or George H. W Brush as you 473 00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:08,240 just mentioned in the first goal for it's short lived 474 00:32:08,319 --> 00:32:13,119 because they both got voted out. And it is the economy. 475 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,920 And I think that it really is the economy stupid, 476 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,359 and people vote for domestic reasons, primarily the economy. 477 00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: I'm not a pacifist by any means, I believe that 478 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,359 there are justifications for war. National security, of course, is 479 00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:33,079 vital to the continuation of a republic or any country really, 480 00:32:33,759 --> 00:32:37,400 But I'm not naive. I know that even in the 481 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,640 best cause wars as they have been explained over the years, 482 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,279 explained in contemporary their contemporary times, and explained through history, 483 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:52,039 I know that there are people involved and power involved, 484 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:56,039 and when people in power get together, that can be 485 00:32:56,079 --> 00:33:02,440 a dangerous combination. Do you argue that World War II, 486 00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:07,720 with the just the atrocities that were going on in 487 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,000 that war before leading up to that war and through 488 00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:16,920 that war, do you assess that as a justifiable war? 489 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,240 What about World War One? It was certainly described as 490 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,359 a justifiable war, at least justifiable that the Americans got 491 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,559 involved in that war at the time. What do you 492 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,319 see as a justifiable war? Are there such things as 493 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:35,559 justifiable war? 494 00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think you can argue that World War II 495 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,519 is justifiable because the US was attacked. Now, of course, 496 00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:47,559 US was attacked because we were trying to strangle Japanese 497 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,640 to oil sanctions. And it's very interesting because FDR apparently 498 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,880 didn't want to put full oil sanctions of the Japanese, 499 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,480 but Dean Atchison, who later became Secretary of State and 500 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:03,200 had an instrumental in getting US involved in the Korean War. 501 00:34:04,319 --> 00:34:05,960 He was kind of kind of a hawk, so he 502 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:11,760 put complete oil sanctions on and FDR didn't countermand them 503 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,159 for whatever reason. And so World War two, you know, 504 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:22,880 certainly the enemies were vile and really beyond the pale, 505 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:26,760 especially the Nazis, and they're killing of twelve million people, 506 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,239 six million of which were Jewish, for no reason other 507 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:38,679 than racial or religious animosity. And so but we had 508 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,079 the stress that that wasn't why the US got into them. 509 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:48,000 The US got into them because of the great power reasons. 510 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,920 And in fact, during the war the United States turned 511 00:34:53,960 --> 00:35:01,239 away Jewish Jewish ship, the Saint Louis, Carryingjewish immigrants. And 512 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:08,159 also terrible, terrible moment rabbis. Several rabbis visited FDR during 513 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:11,079 the war and say, hey, can you bomb Auschwitz. That's 514 00:35:11,159 --> 00:35:15,320 the worst extermination camp the Nazis have in Poland? Can 515 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,400 you vomit me? He goes, well, because we have to 516 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,199 win this war, We've got other targets, so we can't 517 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,400 say the effect of the war was to liberate those camps. 518 00:35:25,639 --> 00:35:31,280 And to uh, you know, uh save saved some Jews 519 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,360 from the Holocaust, but that was not the purpose of 520 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,880 the war. And just like the Civil War didn't start 521 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,280 out to free the slaves, but it exactly did. So 522 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,119 I think we have to I think we have to 523 00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:48,440 put that. And also even before Pearl Harbor, FDR was 524 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,719 secretly trying to go to war with the Nazis by 525 00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:57,000 teaming up with the British to hunt the U boats 526 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,519 in the Atlantic, but Hitler wouldn't take the Bay. Then 527 00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:04,719 later took Thebate after Pearl Harbor. He felt he had 528 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,360 to support his nominal ally, the Japanese. So there's lots 529 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,280 of strange things about World War Two. I think you 530 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,119 can make an argument that you have that you probably 531 00:36:15,119 --> 00:36:17,760 had to do it sooner or later anyone. But FBR 532 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,199 was very secretive and one of the reasons. And now 533 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,760 I'm going to get into World War one question. After 534 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,719 World War One, Americans didn't want to go to war 535 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,719 in World War two, even you know, as late as 536 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,480 you know four nineteen forty and forty one. They knew 537 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,599 what was happening in Europe, but they just didn't want 538 00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:41,800 to get into it. Because the World War one had 539 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,719 been so traumatizing for Americans. Now the ate of the 540 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,880 rate of casualties in World War One was so high. 541 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,760 We only had there were fewer casualties in World War 542 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,440 one US casualties than World War Two. But the US 543 00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:00,800 was only in there were probably about six months with 544 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,360 their with their troops. Uh, it took a while the 545 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,000 trained troops up and in six months it was just 546 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:10,159 a meat grinder, and so people and then after the 547 00:37:10,199 --> 00:37:14,280 war it came out that that the British our allies 548 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,639 were just trying to gobble up and expand their empires. 549 00:37:17,679 --> 00:37:25,000 When Woodwill Wilson was saying, well, this is you know, uh, 550 00:37:25,519 --> 00:37:29,119 you know, make the world safe for democracy, and then 551 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,760 his ally Lillly George said this is the war to 552 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,480 end all wars, right, And so they were saying stuff 553 00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:41,480 like this. But really after the war, uh, you know, 554 00:37:41,519 --> 00:37:46,079 the British and frenchhips gobbled up in the East and 555 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:49,519 so people were really disillusioned. And that is why this 556 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,159 fact always gets dropped. Why people were so resistant. They 557 00:37:54,199 --> 00:37:57,159 were saying, well, the people are isolationists, and ftrsts had 558 00:37:57,159 --> 00:37:59,920 to kind of trick them in, you know, dealing with 559 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:04,639 Teddler and the Japanese and that that's true. But the 560 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,320 reason that they were reluctant to wars is because World 561 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,159 War One was just a total disappointment for everybody concerned. 562 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,679 Speaker 1: Since we're around this time the anniversary of the end 563 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,800 of World War two and how the world, how World 564 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,960 War two ended in Japan with the bombing of two 565 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:33,000 cities in Japan, and we're talking about justification. Everybody has 566 00:38:33,199 --> 00:38:36,840 a different point of view on this. History has informed 567 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,599 us a great deal. But at the end of the day, 568 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:46,599 the question remains, was it justifiable to bomb, to unleash 569 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,639 the nuclear age on these two cities in Japan to 570 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:52,840 stop World War Two? 571 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think that the question should not be should 572 00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:04,599 Truman have dropped the bombs? The US and the British 573 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,039 were engaged in bombing civilians on purpose. The British even 574 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:11,360 said they were doing it by saying they were terror 575 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,199 bombing of Germany and Germany, but they also the US 576 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,920 was fire bombing in Japan. I was using fire bombs 577 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,440 because a lot of the houses were made out of 578 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:26,039 wood and paper, and they wanted to incinerate whole cities, 579 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,719 and FDR started that. Not Truman. The only thing the 580 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,199 atomic bomb did well. First of all, it opened the 581 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,960 atomic agent, which was the main thing. But as far 582 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,679 as the war went on, it was just a more 583 00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,400 efficient way to kill large numbers of the civilians because 584 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,280 it only took two bombs to kill over one hundred 585 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,320 thousand people, whereas you know, the Tokyo raids actually killed 586 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,039 more people. But of course there were waves of bombers 587 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:01,320 to ventual bombers, and tons and tons and tons of bombs, 588 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,039 so it was a more efficient way of killing. The 589 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:11,320 question comes, I think that's almost never explored in the 590 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:16,599 popular press, was that the many, many of the military 591 00:40:16,639 --> 00:40:20,559 people were against it, included colluding Curtis LeMay, who was 592 00:40:20,599 --> 00:40:23,480 in charge of Air Wing and he was a super 593 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,440 hawk and he just thought he just thought, you know 594 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,320 that they thought that this was a barbaric weapon because 595 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,760 it was so powerful and you can kill even more civilians, 596 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,519 and so they were all against. Eisenhower was against dropping it. 597 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,559 But you know, there there's there's a debate about whether 598 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,920 the Japanese really surrendered because of that. A lot of 599 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,360 people say it was because the Soviets entered the war 600 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,679 and they knew because there were the Japanese were already 601 00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:57,280 trying to surrender through the Soviets, but then when the 602 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,639 Soviets joined the war, it was uh, you know, as 603 00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:04,320 the writing was on the wall. But I always said, 604 00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:07,599 you know, if you didn't want to, they were. One 605 00:41:07,599 --> 00:41:11,920 of the justifications was that well, a million people, a 606 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,199 million US soldiers would have died. And then this was Trueman. 607 00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:18,559 I don't know if you use a million, because it's 608 00:41:18,559 --> 00:41:22,280 a very soft it's a very soft estimate, but he said, well, 609 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,280 you know, we had to do this because we would 610 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,880 have the Japanese would buy from the death and any invasion. 611 00:41:28,159 --> 00:41:32,000 But of course the Navy basically had, according to ok 612 00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:38,079 Japan because of a completely defeated Japanese fleet. So you know, 613 00:41:38,199 --> 00:41:42,199 one alternative might have been just to allow enough food 614 00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:47,480 medicine in so that people could have basic uh you know, 615 00:41:47,639 --> 00:41:53,400 living living uh and not subject of famine, and say listen, 616 00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:55,840 we're not going to take this off until you surrender. 617 00:41:56,119 --> 00:42:00,800 I mean, we really need to to bomb sit or whatever, 618 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,880 when uh, we didn't really need to invade, is what 619 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,840 I'm saying. And that's one alternative, So I think you 620 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,119 can I think there's some good arguments on the other 621 00:42:10,199 --> 00:42:12,880 side of not dropping it, and some people say that 622 00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:16,559 Truman did it because they waited until for the atomic test. 623 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,400 They kept postputing the summit until the atomic test happened 624 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,039 because it was delayed, and then when they when the 625 00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:28,760 test was scheduled, they had the Potsdam summit of the 626 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,280 Stalin and uh, I think it was Atchison who said 627 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:38,400 that Truman swaggered around with the atomic weapon on his hip. 628 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,199 But of course Stalin already knew about the Manhattan Project 629 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,599 by the spies that he had there, and so you know, 630 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,920 he just kind of didn't say much at all of 631 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,920 it when Truman told him that he had the bomb 632 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:57,599 and then so so it's very uh, it could have 633 00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:00,159 been you know, that may be some indication that they 634 00:43:00,199 --> 00:43:05,559 also had in mind pressing the Soviets with this new superwomen. 635 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,039 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that isn't discussed enough 636 00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:11,159 as we take a look at that moment in time 637 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:16,440 in those critical decisions was the culture of Japan, the 638 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:21,159 culture of the warrior of Japan. These were people who 639 00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:24,320 simply did not surrender. They were taught not to surrender. 640 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,960 We've seen battles where you know, in entire armies have 641 00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:35,239 been destroyed in Japan and just refusing to surrender because 642 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:41,400 they had this belief in a godlike emperor. And obviously 643 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,480 that changed throughout the course of the war. But you 644 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:49,280 don't have Khama Kazis without some sense of just absolute 645 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,239 loyalty to a cause that I don't think a lot 646 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,639 of Americans can fully understand. Final question for you as 647 00:43:55,679 --> 00:43:58,760 we look at these contemporary times, and that is we 648 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,320 have seen over the last several decades a couple of 649 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,679 generations in this country, liberals democrats positioning themselves as anti war. 650 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,079 Suddenly in this day and age they have become pro 651 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,920 war complete in that effect when it comes to Ukraine 652 00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:22,599 and Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Are you amazed at the 653 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,159 turn of events that we've seen in Congress and in 654 00:44:26,199 --> 00:44:30,519 the American left in general becoming quite hawkish when it involves, 655 00:44:31,559 --> 00:44:36,360 you know, this particular battle going on in Europe. 656 00:44:36,639 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think this has happened before. There's always usually 657 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:45,159 a historical analog, and in the Spanish and the lead 658 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,960 up to the Spanish American War before William McKinley, who 659 00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,320 was a Republican and who we were, as we said, 660 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,000 you know, I was reluctant to go to war, but 661 00:44:56,159 --> 00:45:00,199 was pressured by his own party because the Democrats were hot, 662 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,079 and there were the Democrats were forcing the Republicans to 663 00:45:04,079 --> 00:45:08,360 be hawks, you know, because of the eighteen ninety eight elections, 664 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,800 and McKinley was afraid that he was going to lose. 665 00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:13,679 He didn't go to war, he was going to lose 666 00:45:13,679 --> 00:45:18,400 the election. The Democrats before that, under Grover Cleveland, Grover 667 00:45:18,599 --> 00:45:25,000 Cleveland had avoided war during his second term. The rebellion 668 00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:28,679 was going on in Cuba, and there been starts and 669 00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,199 stops at the Cuban rebellion for a long time. But 670 00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:35,239 so the Democrats were anti war and then they converted 671 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:39,320 to they converted to grow war, and that dragged Republicans 672 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,480 with them, and then you know, the same is true. 673 00:45:41,519 --> 00:45:48,800 I think, you know, people are politically shall we say, opportunistic, 674 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,519 and I think it's very interesting because yes, in this 675 00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:57,280 particular war, they were all out for support for Ukraine 676 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,519 and the Republicans were less so. And although there have 677 00:46:01,639 --> 00:46:04,800 been some Republican hawks from the old days. 678 00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:05,559 Speaker 1: Oh sure, no doubt. 679 00:46:05,679 --> 00:46:10,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so yes, I was surprised. It's not really surprising, 680 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:17,039 I don't think, because these parties adopted a position and 681 00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:20,360 then it's in their interest to oppose it, Like the 682 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,599 Democrats used to be really pro tariffs too, and they're 683 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:28,280 not as pro tariffs and war because Trump is pro tariffs. 684 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,760 So and and you know, the Republicans were free traders 685 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:38,559 before that, but they were pro tariffs since the Civil 686 00:46:38,599 --> 00:46:42,199 War up until nineteen twenties at least, so you know, 687 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,639 after World War Two they became free traders. But now 688 00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:47,400 the back of tariff so it's it kind of runs 689 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,000 in cycles with some of these, uh, these positions that 690 00:46:51,079 --> 00:46:51,679 people take. 691 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,679 Speaker 1: Lincoln was a tariff's guy. McKinley was a tariff's guy, 692 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:56,960 and that was the main. 693 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,159 Speaker 2: That was the main. Actually, Trump has just taken you 694 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,920 probably can party back to where it was because the 695 00:47:03,039 --> 00:47:05,960 terror was the issue for the Republicans for years and 696 00:47:06,079 --> 00:47:07,920 years and years exactly. 697 00:47:08,039 --> 00:47:13,559 Speaker 1: And on that final point, Trump is walking a tightrope. 698 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,079 There's no doubt about it. It's clear. I think his 699 00:47:16,679 --> 00:47:19,679 I think his motives are clear. He wants to end 700 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:24,679 this war, this bloody war between Russia and Ukraine. You 701 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,760 have two players, the two principal players there, who have 702 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,119 caused a great deal of heartburn for everybody involved, particularly 703 00:47:32,519 --> 00:47:38,119 you know, putin the President of Russia. But he has 704 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,239 interest in motivations as well. He's not going to give 705 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:47,519 up territory, certainly that he has sent hundreds of thousands 706 00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:52,159 of Russian soldiers in to die for. So there is 707 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:57,599 the reality of peace negotiations. There is the reality of 708 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:04,000 what can be done and what will ultimately happen. Where 709 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,119 do you see all of this going with President Trump, 710 00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:12,199 in my estimation, earnestly trying to broker a peace deal 711 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,360 between these two warring countries. 712 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 2: Yes, well, one of Trump's pluses is I think he 713 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,119 does have an aversion to war. I think you would 714 00:48:21,119 --> 00:48:25,920 also like to soul the Israeli Gaza war. I mean, 715 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,760 excuse me, the Israeli a moss war over Gaza. It's 716 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,880 very interesting. In both of those conflicts you see domestic 717 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,239 factors really playing a big role. And the one that 718 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:43,719 you just mentioned Ukraine Russia. Yes, Putin made a big mistake, 719 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,519 but I think you just take Ukraine and Ukraine won 720 00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:52,280 that war very start by, you know, by renaming a 721 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,159 country after Putin was going to try to take it over. 722 00:48:55,559 --> 00:49:01,360 But you know it's since gone into stalemate. But you're right, 723 00:49:01,559 --> 00:49:05,920 Putin has to come up with some reason to justify 724 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,840 all this killing of his own people, his own soldiers 725 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,280 in a massive amounts, and so he wants to get 726 00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:17,840 He is demanding the rest of Luhansk, and don't ask 727 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,920 Dawn Boss to do that because he wants to say, well, 728 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,480 you know, I took over the Russian the Ukrainians, or 729 00:49:26,599 --> 00:49:30,079 of using the Russian speaking peoples, and I at least 730 00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:34,880 took over this this entire area, so the Russian speakers 731 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:40,119 are saved. Zelenski on the other hand, he has, you know, 732 00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:43,599 the people fighting and dying in his country to keep 733 00:49:43,639 --> 00:49:46,840 the Russians up. So if he gives up territory that 734 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:51,039 the Russians haven't earned on the battlefield, that's just a 735 00:49:51,159 --> 00:49:53,360 no go for him. So I think it's late to 736 00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:58,159 this differences of domestic politics that actually led to the 737 00:49:58,199 --> 00:50:01,039 war's stalemate up to this point, and it seems that 738 00:50:01,079 --> 00:50:05,039 Trump is trying to battle that to solve it. But 739 00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,599 he has this problem where during the Biden administration, US 740 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,960 was on clearly on the side of Ukraine in a 741 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,880 big way, and Trump is coming in and trying to 742 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,480 be more of a mediator between the two sides, so 743 00:50:18,519 --> 00:50:23,599 that that's kind of a difficult transition to make in 744 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:29,599 any negotiation. Teddy Roosevelt solved the Russia Japanese War in 745 00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:33,639 nineteen oh five. But he hadn't. The US hadn't. Really 746 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:40,320 there were pro pro Japanese, but only in you know, 747 00:50:41,199 --> 00:50:44,400 name only. He wasn't on either side when he tried 748 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:49,679 to solve that. But Trump has a very difficult mission here. 749 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,559 Speaker 1: Well, I think he's got one of the biggest incentives 750 00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:58,320 in play of any president to end this war, and 751 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,760 that is Hiller. Clinton has pledged that she would nominate 752 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,280 Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize if he is 753 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:10,480 able to end that war, under of course, her certain conditions, 754 00:51:10,559 --> 00:51:15,559 of course, and we know that Trump would certainly love 755 00:51:15,679 --> 00:51:21,599 to stick it to his former opponent in twenty sixteen. 756 00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:26,599 Speaker 2: Sounds like those embarrassing beats of your team on the 757 00:51:26,679 --> 00:51:29,559 Super Bowl. If my team wins, yeah, I'll shave my head. 758 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,079 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, Maybe that should be the deal. If 759 00:51:34,159 --> 00:51:36,400 Trump gets peace, not only does he get the Nobel 760 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,760 Peace Prize, but Hillary Clinton has to shave her head 761 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:39,199 as well. 762 00:51:39,679 --> 00:51:40,199 Speaker 2: There you go. 763 00:51:40,639 --> 00:51:42,840 Speaker 1: I think it would make politics more interesting. One thing 764 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,760 we do know, though, is we've had this conversation, and 765 00:51:46,079 --> 00:51:49,400 your book tells the story over and over again. It's 766 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:53,960 all just a little bit of history repeating thanks to 767 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,840 my guest today. I've an Eland historian and author of 768 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:02,920 several books, including his lateststic Causes of American Wars, Economic 769 00:52:03,079 --> 00:52:06,760 and political Triggers. You've been listening to another edition of 770 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,559 The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent 771 00:52:10,599 --> 00:52:14,079 at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, 772 00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,320 stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray.