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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the nonprofits.

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<v Speaker 2>Shakespeare famously wrote, neither a borrower nor a lender be

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<v Speaker 2>for loan OFT loses both itself and friend. Can money

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<v Speaker 2>drive a wedge between organizations that are otherwise friendly? A

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<v Speaker 2>legal dispute between the Freedom from Religion Foundation and American

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<v Speaker 2>Atheists over a deceased donor's estate has finally been resolved.

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<v Speaker 2>The conflict began when Ronald Pelly's twenty twelve notarized trust

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<v Speaker 2>allocated forty five percent of his estate to FFRF, but

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<v Speaker 2>a twenty eighteen handwritten, unnotorized memo introduces changes that reduced

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<v Speaker 2>FFRF's share and added American Atheists and Planned Parenthood as beneficiaries.

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<v Speaker 2>Pelly's son, acting as trustee, used the twenty eighteen memo

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<v Speaker 2>to redistribute funds, which led FFRF to sue for an

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<v Speaker 2>accounting and to ensure the original donor's wishes were followed.

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<v Speaker 2>Despite tensions, all parties eventually settled, and each organization ended

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<v Speaker 2>up receiving more money then expected due to a larger

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<v Speaker 2>estate pool. FFRF stated their intent was never to harm

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<v Speaker 2>fellow secular groups, but to uphold the donor's intent. Both

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<v Speaker 2>organizations expressed relief and are now refocusing on their missions.

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<v Speaker 2>The story is from The Friendly Atheist by haimont Meta,

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<v Speaker 2>published on April eighth, twenty twenty five. So, Jonathan, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>like to start with you today. This mess seems worse

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<v Speaker 2>than trying to untangle a spider web. Can you hash

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<v Speaker 2>out some of the details for us?

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<v Speaker 3>Sure? And what occurred to me when I first read

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<v Speaker 3>this article was that it was framed as a conflict

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<v Speaker 3>when it was it was just a legal move to

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<v Speaker 3>force the executor to disclose all the assets that were

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<v Speaker 3>in the trust and in some other accounts that were

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to be dispersed. And the reason for accepting and

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<v Speaker 3>what the reason was for the executor accepting assigned memo

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<v Speaker 3>that had not been notarized or officially entered into the

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<v Speaker 3>trust you will trust. And so since they hadn't gotten

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<v Speaker 3>that information, they'd asked for it, they hadn't gotten it,

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<v Speaker 3>they had to sue the And when you sue when

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<v Speaker 3>there's a disbursement like this, when you sue the executor

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<v Speaker 3>for information, you have to sue all the other participants

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<v Speaker 3>in that trust and in that so that they are

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<v Speaker 3>aware of what's going on. Otherwise, the legal proceedings are

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<v Speaker 3>excluding them, and that's not since they're part of it,

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<v Speaker 3>they shouldn't be. So that's why they had the name

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<v Speaker 3>American Atheists and Planned Parenthood and the Triple A, which

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<v Speaker 3>is the Atheist Alliance of America, which was disenfranchised by

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<v Speaker 3>that note, you know, and the so.

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<v Speaker 1>They were in the original will, but not.

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<v Speaker 3>In the origin not in the updated one, so and

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<v Speaker 3>so that's you know, that was bad for them. But

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<v Speaker 3>the slight of hand coming out of the executor produced

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<v Speaker 3>that memo showing him and getting ten percent more of

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<v Speaker 3>the estate and others significantly less, and the Triple A

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<v Speaker 3>nothing at all, and Planned Parenthood gets forty percent and

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<v Speaker 3>Robert the executor gets twenty percent and thus adding about

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<v Speaker 3>eighty one thousand dollars to his pockets. To me, always

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<v Speaker 3>seemed a little fishy. But they didn't. They didn't accuse

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<v Speaker 3>him of anything. They just said that the information was

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<v Speaker 3>incomplete and that he had to give an accounting of

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<v Speaker 3>all the accounts. And when he did do that, basically

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<v Speaker 3>turned out that everybody mentioned in both documents made out,

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<v Speaker 3>so they all got more than they would have if

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<v Speaker 3>either one of them was just singlely done or together done.

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<v Speaker 2>That's because there was a larger pool of money than

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<v Speaker 2>they were expecting.

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<v Speaker 3>There was more in the trust, and there was more

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<v Speaker 3>in the fidelity account than the executor led on. So

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<v Speaker 3>you know when they audited it. I guess when the

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<v Speaker 3>court got hold of the actual bank statements, they figured

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<v Speaker 3>it all out. And these things are very nuanced, they're

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<v Speaker 3>very very hard to do. It's it's not an easy thing.

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<v Speaker 3>I just want to say one last thing and then

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<v Speaker 3>I'll bow out of this. And an a state lawyer

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<v Speaker 3>had the most telling quote. I spoke to one nonprofit

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<v Speaker 3>lawyer who was shocked that the American Atheists believed that

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<v Speaker 3>the money was already theirs when they were distributed. There

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<v Speaker 3>was an initial distribution based on the memo, right, and

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<v Speaker 3>based on the first The first one was from the

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<v Speaker 3>trust and the second one was for the memo and

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<v Speaker 3>the American Atheists who were in the second part, the

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<v Speaker 3>memo part. He said, I can't believe they groups don't

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<v Speaker 3>touch legacy donations like that, no matter the amount, until

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<v Speaker 3>all the legal concerns have been definitively taken care of,

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<v Speaker 3>that's what and that takes time to settle. So rather

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<v Speaker 3>than wait for all this to get out now. I

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<v Speaker 3>guess they already spent some of it. But as it

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<v Speaker 3>turned out, it was all good.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, they sound like this kind thing is fairly

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<v Speaker 2>common and that in that, like you said, at the

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<v Speaker 2>beginning there it was cast as if it were some

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<v Speaker 2>kind of confrontational lawsuit, you know, with arguments in the

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<v Speaker 2>court and so forth. But really it was mostly or

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<v Speaker 2>at least the way that they're presenting it now. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we're not privy to all of the details

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<v Speaker 2>of what was going on behind closed doors, but they're

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<v Speaker 2>kind of making it seem like it was. Really it's

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<v Speaker 2>just a normal step in the normal process of adjudicating

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<v Speaker 2>and making sure we have all of the information and

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<v Speaker 2>and and if the executor wasn't being as forthcoming as

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<v Speaker 2>as necessary, then you have to kind of compel them

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<v Speaker 2>to share the information and so on. So it sounds

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<v Speaker 2>like it was like a like just a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just a hoop that that had to be jump jumped

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<v Speaker 2>through to kind of named.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, since they named the other atheist groups, right, one

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<v Speaker 3>of them got a little butt hurt about it, But

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<v Speaker 3>we couldn't do it otherwise. And I think once they

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<v Speaker 3>understood that, they probably would have joined in the suit,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, so it's like rain. But you know, so

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<v Speaker 3>this was just I think the communication was off, right, right,

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<v Speaker 3>And both sides said that the communication of the other

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<v Speaker 3>person was off. So it did look like a little

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<v Speaker 3>spat was going on, But I don't think it was

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<v Speaker 3>really serious. I think that they they eventually knew what happened,

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<v Speaker 3>and we're happy with the settlement.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, Eli even very patient, And so I want

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<v Speaker 2>to jump over to you here. So the groups involved

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<v Speaker 2>have have said publicly that their biggest worry about this

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<v Speaker 2>whole thing is that it might send the wrong message

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<v Speaker 2>to the public about these organizations, about how they interact

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<v Speaker 2>with each other, and also about their commitment to their

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<v Speaker 2>common objectives. And so how do you think the religious

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<v Speaker 2>community is going to present this to their members if

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<v Speaker 2>at all?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And I think it was a concern I had

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<v Speaker 4>as well, because on the surface, it looks like, oh,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, the.

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<v Speaker 1>F FRF is suing.

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<v Speaker 4>Suing this this dead person for more money that they

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<v Speaker 4>didn't get her, you know, suing other atheist groups for more.

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<v Speaker 4>And you can if you don't explain anything about the

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<v Speaker 4>reality of the situation, you can frame it as if

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<v Speaker 4>it's just kind of this petty, ugly, messy sort of

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<v Speaker 4>back and forth. But as Jonathan pointed out, like it

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<v Speaker 4>just it wasn't really that way. It was just sort

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<v Speaker 4>of a legal necessity. And you know, through no fault

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<v Speaker 4>of their own, a couple of groups received more money

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<v Speaker 4>than they were supposed to. And the one of the

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<v Speaker 4>groups that got shorted was like, hey, something not right.

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<v Speaker 4>That's not what that guy wanted his money to do

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<v Speaker 4>after he died, and you're not respecting his wishes. So

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<v Speaker 4>let's just do that and just kind of get this

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<v Speaker 4>all worked out. The fact that justs like Jonathan said,

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<v Speaker 4>the brother the deceased's brother was the executive of the estate,

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<v Speaker 4>and he produced this unnotorized memo, which I think in

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<v Speaker 4>this context unnotorized should be synonymous with completely irrelevent. And

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<v Speaker 4>this is this memo that says like, oh, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>give you know, change all of this at the last minute,

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<v Speaker 4>and by the way, give the executor more money. Right.

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<v Speaker 4>I think I think it was kind of poorly. Uh,

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<v Speaker 4>the court system I think that was supposed to handle this,

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<v Speaker 4>I think should have flagged that. So I think it was.

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<v Speaker 2>Poorly Yeah, I mean, they didn't say in the in

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<v Speaker 2>the article, whether or not anybody was actually accusing the

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<v Speaker 2>executor of of doing anything, you know, on on toward

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<v Speaker 2>or anything like that, or cheat, Yeah, cheating, I supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to put it bluntly, but you know, we got to admit,

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<v Speaker 2>there's plenty of room for a fishy smell to come

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<v Speaker 2>out of that. I mean, that's yeah, there's definitely some

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<v Speaker 2>you know, some things that were not not necessarily above

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<v Speaker 2>board happening there, whether it was intentional or not, right.

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<v Speaker 4>And I'm certainly speculating. I appreciate you, right, but yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>it does it seems like it could be something strange

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<v Speaker 4>afoot at the circle K.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, right, yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's just back to Jonathan for for a second here, So,

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<v Speaker 2>so do you think that this was a I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>we've been talking about this already, so you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>may have already answered this, but I was just curious

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<v Speaker 2>what your thoughts are. You know, do you think that

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<v Speaker 2>the conflict was between the organizations themselves or was it

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<v Speaker 2>between the organizations the executor or and this will add

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<v Speaker 2>a new little twist, is it really kind of a

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<v Speaker 2>problem with all of the groups involved, the organizations and

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<v Speaker 2>the executor and maybe even the deceased, a conflict between

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<v Speaker 2>that them as a as a as a single group

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<v Speaker 2>and the way the government, you know, adjudicates this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing. I mean, there's there's a certain amount of

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<v Speaker 2>legal procedures that need to be followed, and are we

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<v Speaker 2>highlighting a flaw there or where do you think the

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<v Speaker 2>real cause?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean is it?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it really just a breakdown in communication or was

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<v Speaker 2>it a faulty system or what do you think is

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<v Speaker 2>happening with that?

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<v Speaker 3>I think what caused it ultimately was the lack of

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<v Speaker 3>discovery and the lack of getting the information on the

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<v Speaker 3>trust fund and the Fidelity account and the other accounts,

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<v Speaker 3>a detailed description of them, and with the balances and

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<v Speaker 3>things like that, and what the balances were in that

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<v Speaker 3>sort of thing, and for all the stuff that was

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to be distributed. And I think his son was

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<v Speaker 3>involved in the trust but part of that. But it

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't it doesn't matter because the executor had a fiduciary

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<v Speaker 3>responsibility to produce that to the people who were getting

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<v Speaker 3>the things, and if he just didn't know he was

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to do it, they asked for it, he didn't

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<v Speaker 3>give it to him. Then they felt like they had

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<v Speaker 3>to go to court and put it in an official

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<v Speaker 3>mandatory situation, and as a result, everybody got happy. But

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<v Speaker 3>I think in the process they got a little disgruntled

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<v Speaker 3>about how it happened. But that's true because it wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>a smooth process. But I could I can just say

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<v Speaker 3>that I don't think they ever are a smooth process. So,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I think that everybody has that problem, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>with but not everybody. Some of these things go smoothly.

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<v Speaker 3>They still cost money and lawyers. They still still have

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<v Speaker 3>to have a lawyer, you still have to go to probate,

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<v Speaker 3>you still have to do all this stuff. It's going

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<v Speaker 3>to be you know, and it's complicated. It's not an

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<v Speaker 3>easy process. It could be streamlined, especially if there's no

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<v Speaker 3>contesting in anything, you know, you know, just if the

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<v Speaker 3>executor can just give people what they need and there's

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<v Speaker 3>said and done with, right, then there's.

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<v Speaker 1>Like that's what happened. That's what happened in the end.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, they they the lawsuit didn't go through, it

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<v Speaker 2>was not proceeded, and it was not you know, judged

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<v Speaker 2>by a judge. It was just they came to an

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<v Speaker 2>agreement and everybody was happy with it. And and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>everyone went their separate ways.

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<v Speaker 4>I suppose it's possible that, like perhaps the executor was just,

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<v Speaker 4>through no fault of their own, ill equipped to handle

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<v Speaker 4>something like this, just made the wrong call. I was

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<v Speaker 4>a little bit more like skeptical and malicious in my

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<v Speaker 4>notes about it, But now that we talk about it, yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's definitely a possibility.

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<v Speaker 1>That we saw.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been the executor.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm change right here live on the nonprofits. I do

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<v Speaker 1>that all the time.

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<v Speaker 3>On the show, I was saying that, yeah, yeah, if

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<v Speaker 3>you made me the executor of a complex uh million

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<v Speaker 3>and a half or two million dollars, I would probably

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<v Speaker 3>screw it up to.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, me too.

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<v Speaker 2>Even though I'm a math guy, I'm definitely not you know,

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<v Speaker 2>figuring out all the jump through all the hoops kind

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<v Speaker 2>of guy. And so yeah, I would definitely mess that

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<v Speaker 2>up too, Eli, I want to stick with you for

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<v Speaker 2>a second here. Jonathan was talking about all all of

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<v Speaker 2>the expense that's involved in this. These organizations had to

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<v Speaker 2>pay tens of thousands of dollars for their legal representation.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean we are talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you know from the that's being awarded from

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<v Speaker 2>the trust, and so clearly there was a one could

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<v Speaker 2>strike an attitude of investment towards that too. But do

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<v Speaker 2>you think that, uh, this was a worthy battle, not

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<v Speaker 2>just by a matter of dollars, but for you know,

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<v Speaker 2>they taught the organization's release statements saying that they were

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<v Speaker 2>concerned about the uh, the reputation of their organizations as

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<v Speaker 2>an individual, as a as an individual organization or and

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<v Speaker 2>also as part of a larger group of secular and

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<v Speaker 2>atheist organizations throughout the US. Do you think that they're

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<v Speaker 2>that this kind of thing was was damaging to that

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<v Speaker 2>to that reputation or could it have been avoided somehow

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<v Speaker 2>or or or what?

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<v Speaker 1>What are your thoughts with that?

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<v Speaker 4>I think it certainly can be damaging because if you

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<v Speaker 4>think about like, oh, like you know how many churches

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<v Speaker 4>are like not even churches, villagies, like people do you

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<v Speaker 4>see speaking out against planned parenthood? Right, and then when

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<v Speaker 4>they want to if they're speaking to the right, like

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<v Speaker 4>maybe not aware like the audience, and they're trying to

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<v Speaker 4>garner the opposite of support for planned parent opposition to

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<v Speaker 4>planned parenthood, they're like, well, even the Freedom from Religion

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<v Speaker 4>Foundation is suing planned parenthoods. So even secular people have

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<v Speaker 4>reasons to hate planned parenthood, and they can twist it

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<v Speaker 4>that way without explaining like, well, no, here's the reason

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<v Speaker 4>Planned parent or Freedom of Religion named plant parenthood in

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<v Speaker 4>a lawsuit. It hasn't nothing to do with anything that

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<v Speaker 4>they did wrong. So I think it definitely it can

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<v Speaker 4>be damaging. I think not to the actual relationships, but

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<v Speaker 4>to the perception of the relationships. And now all of

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<v Speaker 4>a sudden, all they're turmoil in the atheist community because

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<v Speaker 4>they're godless, because they sin, because they have orgies.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait, we do, no matter, where's my invitation.

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<v Speaker 4>I haven't been involved, but it certainly sounded like gentlemen,

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<v Speaker 4>really really sounded like I wasn't telling the truth. And

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<v Speaker 4>I said that that's really fun.

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<v Speaker 3>But you had all those signs lying right there. You know.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know why that happened.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just.

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<v Speaker 2>Boy Eli slack with the with the admissions and the nonprofits.

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<v Speaker 2>He's changing his mind and now he's revealing more than

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<v Speaker 2>he means to you.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, it's that typical tell is looking down like this.

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<v Speaker 1>That's it, right, That's what they say, That's what the

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<v Speaker 1>experts say.

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<v Speaker 3>Your pupils go.

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<v Speaker 4>A popular movie where a character talks about not knowing

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<v Speaker 4>what to do with their hands. That's me with my

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<v Speaker 4>eyeballs basically all.

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<v Speaker 1>The time, right, right, let's go with that. We'll go

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<v Speaker 1>with that answer.

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<v Speaker 2>I think, Yeah, Jonathan, I wanted to ask you, is

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<v Speaker 2>there anything that we can learn from this? I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>and not just uh, lessons about how we should you know,

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<v Speaker 2>portray ourselves or how we can protect ourselves from from

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<v Speaker 2>this type of thing happening.

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<v Speaker 1>But what about we We we mentioned that.

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<v Speaker 2>Religious groups or or whomever might use this as an

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to bash the the atheist groups there, and we think,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think we would agree that that would be

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<v Speaker 2>an unfair bashing happening at this point?

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<v Speaker 1>Does it?

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<v Speaker 2>But does it give us warning as as atheists to

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<v Speaker 2>be careful about how we characterize clashes between religious organizations?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, can we can we use this to make

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves you know, better citizens and better uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>people that are in a better position to judge the

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<v Speaker 2>actions of others.

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<v Speaker 1>And that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Is there is there a word of warning in this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of in this story somewhere?

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<v Speaker 3>I think so, I think the way you deal with

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<v Speaker 3>these sorts of situations is with a dose of skepticism.

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<v Speaker 3>When somebody says two people are fighting, uh, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>if you really want to know if they are, you

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<v Speaker 3>look into the details of it, and they will you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the devils in the details if if the details of

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<v Speaker 3>it say they're not really fighting. There's just a disagreement,

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<v Speaker 3>a minor disagreement about some sort of fact. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>it's not it's not like a knockdown, drag out fight,

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<v Speaker 3>or it is a knockdown, drag out fight, and these

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<v Speaker 3>people are going tooth and nail. But you find out,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, you use several sources, dig a little bit

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<v Speaker 3>into it, get some there are people probably doing a

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<v Speaker 3>pretty good job of reporting what's going on. There'll be

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<v Speaker 3>quotes and things like that. Don't trust them, but you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I have a lot of advice for that sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>But the idea is that in this case, we found

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<v Speaker 3>out by two articles. I read two articles on this

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<v Speaker 3>and uh, and from different sources, and we found out

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<v Speaker 3>that this was amicably done and amicably settled. So it

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<v Speaker 3>wasn't a big you know, it's not the big headline.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, you'll always get the you know, f RFF

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<v Speaker 3>sues the world. Well no, they you know they you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they weren't actually suing most of them. They were only

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<v Speaker 3>suing the executor to disclose ship, you know, so they

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<v Speaker 3>had to do it. Get over yourselves. Now, when two

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<v Speaker 3>religious groups get going, we just have to be careful

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<v Speaker 3>that we're not biasing our analysis of the situation because

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<v Speaker 3>we want to see them fight, right right, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>just don't do that. Take a look, you know, dig

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<v Speaker 3>a little deeper, dig a little bit beyond the surface

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<v Speaker 3>of what you're seeing and the sensational headlines, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>because that's how they sell papers, as we used to say,

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<v Speaker 3>but that's how they get clicks, you.

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<v Speaker 1>Know, yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And and you know, we're atheists are human too, where

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<v Speaker 2>we can jump on the bandwagon. You know, we see

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<v Speaker 2>groups that we are opposed to seemingly doing things that.

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<v Speaker 1>Are bad or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's very easy to start pointing the finger.

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<v Speaker 2>And so maybe this would be a you know, a

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<v Speaker 2>dose of what it's like to experience that from from

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<v Speaker 2>the other side. And you know, so it could be

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<v Speaker 2>just a you know, a warning for us to just

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<v Speaker 2>be wary and be be attentive and as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>be a little bit skeptical, dig a little deeper. Uh, Eli,

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<v Speaker 2>do you have anything to add to that?

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<v Speaker 3>Well?

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<v Speaker 4>I had the thought while John was saying it that

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<v Speaker 4>you kind of helped me connect something. If the devil

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<v Speaker 4>is in the details, Christians aren't going to go there.

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<v Speaker 3>They're going to stay away.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, I think something there. I don't bother the right.

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<v Speaker 3>We have to we have to remember that the Christians

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<v Speaker 3>are people.

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<v Speaker 1>Too, exactly.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, so we got to find a way to get

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<v Speaker 4>the devil somewhere else? Can we put it in? Like,

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<v Speaker 4>can we put them in the big in Georgia or

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<v Speaker 4>the devil.

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<v Speaker 3>Put them beneath the keel of the boat and we're good.

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<v Speaker 4>Details in Georgia.

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<v Speaker 1>I have no comment on that.

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<v Speaker 3>Just be kind people, Just be kind, you know, in

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<v Speaker 3>your dealings with people.

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<v Speaker 1>For sure.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's a perfect spot for us to wrap

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<v Speaker 2>this one up there, nice nice little cherry on top

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<v Speaker 2>of that one.

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<v Speaker 1>Jonathan and I want to thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Both for hanging in there with me this week, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've had I think we've had some really good discussions.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh.

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<v Speaker 2>Those of you watching, if you like what you see,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, click like and do all this stuff, share

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<v Speaker 2>it and add a comment. If you'd like to, or

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<v Speaker 2>if you have any feedback for us