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Board 14 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:50.640 Gosh Energy Know your Power. 15 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:52.679 Estimated ANUEL bill of twenty six hundred and twenty nine 16 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:55.159 euro new customers only thursch of centis kentof smart all 17 00:00:55.200 --> 00:00:57.280 day electricity unit rates in twenty nine percent of gas 18 00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:57.799 unit rates. 19 00:00:57.880 --> 00:00:59.920 See Porcosh Energy dot E for fulties and cis. 20 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.600 Oh hey, it's your friend's nice dad who always pronounces 21 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:05.760 your name wrong. Oops, Ali Ward and welcome to the 22 00:01:05.799 --> 00:01:09.680 thrilling conclusion of spooktober here it is let's turn our 23 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:13.920 brains right over to zombies, shall we? But actual natural zombies. 24 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:17.680 So this guest who someone I met interviewing for a 25 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:20.920 panel at the beloved Natural History Museum of Allie County. 26 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:25.000 I was immediately thrilled to meet another high caliber dork, 27 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:29.079 big dork who spent his spare time researching our weird world. 28 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.159 You're gonna love him. He's a longtime science writer. You've 29 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:35.560 likely already read his work in Wired magazines Absurd Creature 30 00:01:35.599 --> 00:01:38.519 of the Weak column. Perhaps you've enjoyed one of his 31 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:41.879 many books, such as The Wasp That Brainwashed the Caterpillar, 32 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:45.680 or Plight of the Living Dead, What real life Zombies 33 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:49.079 reveal about our world and ourselves? Or a Poison Like 34 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:51.280 no Other, which is his latest book. His books are 35 00:01:51.280 --> 00:01:54.680 really deeply researched. They're also hilarious. They're such a joy 36 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:57.200 to read. I'm a really big fan of his, and 37 00:01:57.280 --> 00:01:58.959 his Plight of a Living Dead came out a few 38 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.599 years ago, so he was not expecting me in his inbox. 39 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:03.120 But I reached out to him and was like, hey, 40 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:05.599 oh buddy, Hi, Hi remember me? And I was like, 41 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.319 since you spent years writing a book about zombie creatures 42 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:10.840 and traveling all over the world to interview the best 43 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.199 scientists across this wide range of species, may I beg 44 00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:17.280 you to talk about it onologies, since an ologist is 45 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:21.120 anyone studying something. And he was like, sure, dude, so my. 46 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:22.719 Dream has come alive. 47 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:25.840 And he joined me from his recording studio slash closet 48 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:28.960 in San Francisco, and it was just a joy to 49 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:32.240 delight in his encyclopedic brain and his very dry wit. 50 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:33.879 We're going to get right to the episode, but first, 51 00:02:33.919 --> 00:02:36.199 thank you to everyone who submitted questions ahead of time 52 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.800 via patroon dot com slash ologies it costs a book 53 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:42.039 a month to join. Thank you to everyone posting pictures 54 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:45.000 of yourself in ology smirch that you got from ologiesmirch 55 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.919 dot com. And thanks to the folks who leave reviews 56 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:50.280 that you know I read on purpose, such as this 57 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:53.680 one from Ked ninety eight, who wrote five stars. Hi, Ali, 58 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.479 I know you're reading this. I love every episode more 59 00:02:56.520 --> 00:02:59.080 than I expect to. Every time I hit play. Your 60 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:01.960 asides remind me of how my brain likes to be too. 61 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.039 kN ninety eight we probably have the same fungus. And 62 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:08.240 with that, let's get into the business of neuroparasitology, the 63 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.639 science and study of organisms who have been fiddled with 64 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:15.120 in their domes. Again, this author studied this study with 65 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:18.800 various people who study it from different angles and species, 66 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:21.960 and thus, in the totally legit sense of the terminology 67 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.280 ologists belongs on ologies. So hunker down and get ready 68 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.400 for snake headed club fungus, bellies of worms, brains of zombies, 69 00:03:29.599 --> 00:03:35.000 wasp stings, hapless cockroaches, the attraction of light, moonlit skinny dipping, 70 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:40.240 the philosophy of where I stop and you begin, decapitated ants, 71 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:42.879 and the two of us discussing the last of us 72 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:47.560 with author and gatherer of all facts neuroparasitology, Matt Simon. 73 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.479 These are bad, uh, at least terrible. 74 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:11.360 Yeah, but we can at least talk about ants. 75 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.319 It's not as terrible as it is for ants. 76 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:21.360 Fuck. Bugs are fucked, Yeah, so fucked. First thing I'll 77 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:22.680 have you do if you could say your first and 78 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:24.800 last name in the pronouns use absolutely. 79 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:26.959 My name is Matt Simon. I go by he him. 80 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:33.000 So you are a science writer. You're very, very accomplished 81 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:36.120 in this field. Several books under your belt when you 82 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:41.000 wrote your first book, did that spark the idea for 83 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:42.079 your next book? 84 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:45.839 Sure? Yeah, it certainly did. The first book was kind 85 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.920 of a roundup of weird stuff happening in the animal kingdom, 86 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:53.040 and in that reporting and kind of gathering up those 87 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:58.040 different creatures, I had come across several instances of parasites 88 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:01.959 that have evolved to mind control their hosts, and I 89 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.519 decide it deserves a full length book treatment, which is 90 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:08.040 what this is. It is a kind of a deep 91 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:12.920 dive into the science as to this weirdly pervasive phenomenon 92 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:17.639 that has evolved many, many separate times across the tree 93 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:22.240 of life. Parasites are more often than we think, actually 94 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:24.360 mind controlling the hosts that they. 95 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:27.759 Inhabit, coming from inside the house the. 96 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:33.720 Min So more parasites than we realize. It's more than 97 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:36.639 just Courtyceps fung guess. 98 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:39.800 Much more than cordyceps. There are worms that do this, 99 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.399 there are wasps that do this, bacteria. So this is 100 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.680 when I say that it's more common than we realize. 101 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:50.040 This is more common than scientists realize. So this science 102 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:54.639 of zombification isn't all that old. It's really the past 103 00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:57.680 couple of decades, it's really gotten going. So they're finding 104 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.959 more and more of these interactions between pairs site and host, 105 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:03.839 and there's actually a lot of these that we are 106 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:05.439 just totally unaware of. 107 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.800 Matt says that these universes are called umwaltz. 108 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:11.040 What It's a German. 109 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:16.399 Word that means environment or surroundings as experienced by an organism. Now, 110 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.120 umwaltz is a fun word, but not as fun as 111 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:23.680 the companion term ungebung, which is an umwaldt as seen 112 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.759 or experienced by a different observer. So socially, your neighbor Tim, 113 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:32.680 who works at an insurance firm, might exist in a 114 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:37.560 different umwalt than Cardi b, but her Instagram stories provide 115 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:39.040 an entertaining umgebung. 116 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:43.360 The parasites are playing with senses of taste and with 117 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.879 sight and with hearing and smell. We don't inhabit the 118 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:49.480 same universe that an aunt does, right, so there might 119 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:53.879 be much more subtle and complex manipulations by these parasites 120 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:54.680 that we just don't even know. 121 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.720 Is that in terms of like chemosensory cues that we 122 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:02.000 just can't even detect. 123 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.000 Can't even wrap our heads around. And it wasn't that 124 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:08.839 long ago that, like, people didn't understand how bats moved 125 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:12.199 the world until fairly recently in human history. There was 126 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:14.560 a theory for a while, think it was like one 127 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:18.560 hundred and fifty years that bats were actually feeling through 128 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:22.720 the air with their wings or feeling by touch, and 129 00:07:22.800 --> 00:07:24.800 that was the wisdom for one hundred and fifty years, 130 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:26.959 And then they finally did good experiments to show that 131 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:31.319 there's this thing called sonar, these bats sensing the world, 132 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:35.040 moving through their world in this completely alien way to 133 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:38.319 humans at least. So it's like we are naturally self 134 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.959 centered as people, some of us more than others. But 135 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.879 I think as a species, we just don't fully comprehend 136 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:49.360 these sensory worlds, these umvelts that these other creatures have. 137 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:53.160 I feel like as soon as science does figure out 138 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:54.959 how something works in the animal kingdom, they're like, how 139 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:55.959 can we weaponize this? 140 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:58.680 Yes, turn it against somebody? 141 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:01.480 Yeah, how can we figure out to duplicate this in 142 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:03.240 some sort of militarized fashion. 143 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:05.600 Gee, I wish we had one of the boomsday machines. 144 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:08.480 Let's go back to you a little bit. Had you 145 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:12.160 been taking notes in a nature journal since you were 146 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:16.319 a child, did you want to be a field biologist? 147 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:19.160 And then there were too many shots you had to 148 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.399 get what's your origin story? 149 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:25.879 It was mostly too much school, you know, kind of 150 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.680 go get your bachelor's and on and on and on 151 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.279 to eventually get a PhD. Now, I've always been totally 152 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:34.399 fascinated by the natural world. I spent a good amount 153 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:37.080 of time of it as a kid, rambling through forrest. 154 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.600 My grandparents lived in the country, rattlesnakes and such. I 155 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:45.080 was not bitten by arald snakes, but fascinated by them. 156 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:47.799 So those sorts of things kind of set the stage 157 00:08:47.799 --> 00:08:50.159 for me. And I kind of spent my twenties just 158 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:53.559 wandering around aimlessly as a freelance writer, not really having 159 00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:56.519 much direction, because a lot of people do in their twenties. 160 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.120 But Matt loved science and is excellent at studying and 161 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:00.919 communicating it. 162 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:03.600 I got to wired in my late twenties and I 163 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:06.960 just started writing more about science and focused in on 164 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.759 animals and did this column called Absurd Creature of the 165 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:11.919 Week that ran for a couple of years where I 166 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:16.519 profiled these weird evolutionary tricks in the natural world. That 167 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:18.720 turned into the first book. The second book and then 168 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:21.519 I just wrote a third book about microplastics, which is 169 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:24.960 entirely different and entirely more depressing, and we don't even 170 00:09:25.159 --> 00:09:28.039 talk about it here. I just forget I mentioned it, so. 171 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.240 Ignore, completely ignorish his new and lauded book, A Poison 172 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.559 Like no Other, How Microplastics Corrupted Our Planet and Our bodies. 173 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:36.720 Forget we even linked in the show notes along with 174 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.080 his other books about weird animal stuff. I feel like 175 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:42.440 zombification of cockroaches is somehow going to be more uplifting 176 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:44.840 than that book about microplastics, right. 177 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.039 Weirdly, Yes, yeah, I can guarantee you I'd rather think 178 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:50.519 about you know, an's getting zombified. 179 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:56.679 Well, then we'll move away from the true horrors microplastics 180 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:00.519 for spooptober and go into lighter horrors, such as zombies 181 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:04.200 in the real world. Okay, so when you started to 182 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:06.600 tackle this subject, you already had some notes and some 183 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:10.320 ideas from writing your first book. So did you have 184 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:17.919 to figure out a list of how many neuroparasites or perisitoids? 185 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:20.960 I guess let's start there. The difference between something being 186 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:23.480 a parasite and being peristaitoid. 187 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:24.879 Is there a difference? 188 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:30.399 So a parasite is an organism some sort that can 189 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:34.360 be like a virus or we're talking about ants getting 190 00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:37.919 zomba fid, we're talking about a fungus that invades their 191 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:40.360 body and feeds on their energy and eventually kills them 192 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:44.440 in these really really elaborate ways. Then a parasitoid is 193 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:49.000 one of these parasites that ends up killing its posts 194 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:50.840 in the end. So in the case of the ant, 195 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.320 obviously the most famous example, but we have lots of 196 00:10:54.360 --> 00:10:58.639 examples of wasps that do this in really horrific ways, 197 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:03.399 to cockroaches and caterpillars. Vis parasite a general kind of 198 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:09.039 energy exploiter, parasitoid, one that actually ends up killing its Oh. 199 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:11.320 So one is lethal and one just keeps you alive 200 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.240 for as long as it can to drain off of you. 201 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:17.279 Yeah, so I think of a tick as a parasite, 202 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.000 right feeds off of your blood. Hopefully it doesn't give 203 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:22.799 you limes disease, but drops off and goes about it's 204 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:24.039 mery way without killing you. 205 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:25.440 M M, it's merry way. 206 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:27.279 It's like, yeah, but it was so good, it was 207 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:28.480 so nice. 208 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.519 Great meeting, exchanging fluids. See you later. 209 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:34.720 And if you're thirsty for more on ticks, lime disease, 210 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:38.080 and other achroologically born illnesses. We have this great mega 211 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:41.720 episode linked in the show notes below about ticks that 212 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:45.519 will just have you check in your crevices forever. But 213 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.000 back to Matt. So he had been researching and writing 214 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:50.679 a column for Wired called the Absurd Creature of the Week, 215 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:55.039 but had this giant spreadsheet of horrifying critters that many 216 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:58.480 people would call assholes but others would say are just 217 00:11:58.519 --> 00:11:59.799 behavioral manipulators. 218 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:03.919 You get into conversations with scientists and just reading through 219 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:07.600 the literature, and you find really like classes of these 220 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:11.039 behavioral manipulators different kinds of worms, but there might be 221 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:15.320 hundreds of different species of a particular worm that manipulate 222 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:19.600 different hosts in you know, subtly different ways, these extremely 223 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.279 interestingly evolved behaviors and manipulations. So yes, it was a 224 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.840 matter of finding a list of scientists who would bother 225 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.200 talking to me, and some of which I actually was 226 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:33.879 able to visit in the field, but a whole lot 227 00:12:33.919 --> 00:12:38.360 of reading literature. So much literature like this is fun 228 00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:41.720 to read, though it's not like organic chemistry. Sorry to 229 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:43.200 organic chemistry. 230 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:45.799 All right, don't tell Matt but the debut novel of 231 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.120 Bonnie Garmus, Lessons in Chemistry, has been a New York 232 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.320 Times bestseller since it's released in twenty twenty two, and 233 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.519 it's about a woman who studies abiogenesis, the origins of 234 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:59.679 life via carbon containing compounds, which is organic chemistry, and 235 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:02.440 it was instantly snapped up into a TV show for Apple, 236 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:06.399 for which doctor Tiagen Wall of the WGA Strike episode 237 00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:09.080 was a supervising producer if you remember that. And I 238 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:12.720 think organic chemistry are doing fine at the library. But 239 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.799 from the stacks and the journals and the notebooks and 240 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:19.159 the interviews to tucking his pants in his socks and 241 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:23.080 hopefully crimes checking, at some point Matt got sunburnt and 242 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:25.159 dusty alongside the researchers. 243 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.679 So we all know about the Afio Cortceps fungus that manipulates, 244 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:32.159 and that's what The Last of Us is based on. 245 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:35.480 But there are all sorts of scientists all over the 246 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.080 world working on these less well known interactions between parasite 247 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:42.519 and hosts. So I was able to visit a scientist 248 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:45.440 who took Man a hike through New Mexico looking for 249 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:49.720 horsehair worms that do crazy things to crickets. I was 250 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:53.759 able to bother these people for their time and energy, 251 00:13:53.879 --> 00:13:56.519 not unlike a parasite, actually inaction. 252 00:13:58.159 --> 00:13:59.879 Can you talk to me about horsehair worms as long 253 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:02.799 as were there? Wow, you've never seen anything come out 254 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.399 of a butt like a horse hair worm, have you? 255 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.840 It's an experience. And I was lucky enough to see 256 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:11.679 them both in the wild on that hike in New 257 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:13.480 Mexico and in the lab that I went back to 258 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:16.360 with this researcher. So this guy was nice enough to 259 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.399 take me out into the wild and we were looking 260 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:21.639 for bodies of water, which is not a place that 261 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:26.080 you typically find crickets, right, But we eventually came upon 262 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:30.600 this cattle bucket trough. Wasn't only trout, was more circular. 263 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:34.080 I don't know anything about farming. It was where cows drink. 264 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:36.320 I think it's a stock tank, just in case you're 265 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.279 listening while operating a tractor and screaming as a stock tank. 266 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:42.720 And we looked into here and we through the water, 267 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:47.759 and we found these wiggling, pale colored worms horse hair worms. 268 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.080 They're like I think I'm described in the book, is 269 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:55.240 like Ali Dente angel hair pasta. So where did these 270 00:14:55.320 --> 00:15:02.519 worms come from? It is a very interest and horrifying story, 271 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:05.440 especially if you are the cricket. So what happens is 272 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.360 a cricket's doing its thing. It's hopping along eating basically 273 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.080 whatever it can on the ground. They are not picky eaters, 274 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:16.000 so they will typically eat something like a mosquito, and 275 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:20.919 the mosquito has these larvae, these eggs of this parasite 276 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.720 called the horsehair worm in that body. 277 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.120 So the cricket snacks on this mosquito, not knowing that 278 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:30.440 it is stuffed with parasite eggs like cheese in a 279 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:32.960 crab rangoon. Yum, yum, Yummy'm worth it. 280 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:36.559 And then once the cricket consumes that those eggs hatched 281 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:40.320 into larvae work their way through the tissues of the cricket, 282 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.720 which I can't imagine it feels particularly good, and grow. 283 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:47.159 Sometimes many of these can actually grow in the abdomen 284 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:51.159 of a single cricket. One of them is actually quite interesting. 285 00:15:51.159 --> 00:15:54.519 One of them will actually snake its tail through the 286 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.559 cricket's body and around its brain. And the thinking there 287 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.960 is that it is releasing some sort of chemical to 288 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:06.240 then mind control the cricket. That my control entails jumping 289 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:09.440 into a body of water, where again, a cricket is 290 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:12.559 not meant to be on a kind of drown So 291 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:17.240 once that cricket hits the water, the worm knows to 292 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:20.519 escape because it's actually poking part of its body out 293 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:23.679 of the exoskeleton of the cricket. It can taste that water, 294 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.600 and once it is in that water, that's when it 295 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.919 makes its break and it wiggles out of the cricket, 296 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.120 this very very long worm. And we were actually able 297 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:36.919 in the lab to he just like you do. He 298 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:38.399 just went and grabbed a couple crickets that had a 299 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:41.440 bunch of horsehair worms in their bodies, toss them in 300 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:45.559 a little pan of water, and very quickly these worms, 301 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:49.360 several of them, would just squirm out and the cricket. 302 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:51.960 You would think, well, that's it for the cricket, right, like, 303 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:54.000 what's what's the point of living anymore? 304 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:56.240 Embarrassing too, You don't need to see this. 305 00:16:56.519 --> 00:16:58.080 You think that would be the death of the cricket. 306 00:16:58.080 --> 00:16:58.360 It is not. 307 00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:02.279 Actually, the vast majority of them survive. Sometimes again several 308 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.720 of these worms coming out of their bodies in this 309 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:09.960 really horrific fashion. So where this gets extra interesting is 310 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:13.119 around this idea that the scientist was telling me about 311 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:18.839 called the mafia hypothesis. So we know, like the old shakedown, 312 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.640 like if you don't pay us money, something bad could 313 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:25.559 happen to your shop. We would hate for that sort 314 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:29.920 of thing to happen by our hand or otherwise. So 315 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.119 there's this theory actually that the cricket wants to get 316 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.440 rid of those worms. So as the parasite is in 317 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.200 its body, it is sucking up energy and nutrients from 318 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:43.680 that cricket. It's quite a burden. There might be a 319 00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:48.319 component here that the cricket actually is maybe partly behaviorally 320 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.480 modified into jumping into water, but also to a certain degree, 321 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:55.799 would want to to relieve itself of the burden of 322 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:58.799 these worms, especially given that it can go on to 323 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:03.160 survive perfectly fine. It is not I can imagine a 324 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:05.960 fun experience for the cricket to go through. 325 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:09.839 Please just sleep, okay, bye bye. 326 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.480 But it hops along only to probably eat another mosquito, 327 00:18:13.960 --> 00:18:16.000 ingest more worms and then do it all over again. 328 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.680 And well, I know that you want all the answers 329 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.160 buttoned up tidally. A twenty twenty one article titled new 330 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:27.079 definitive host record for Nomtamorpha in Nebraska shrugs. The life 331 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:31.160 cycle and ecology of the horsehair worm in Nebraska remain unknown, 332 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.279 but don't let that deter you from finishing the article, 333 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.279 which includes tasty tidbits such as the male chloacle opening 334 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.519 is surrounded inside and outside by bristles that buy for 335 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:46.359 kate deeply, and adhesive worts are lacking. Do scientists know 336 00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:50.440 what part of the brain the worm is wrapping around 337 00:18:50.599 --> 00:18:54.640 to poke at to make it say water or I mean, 338 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:56.640 obviously if it's like, you know, what might help get 339 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:57.480 these things out of my butt? 340 00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:58.039 Of some water? 341 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:03.400 But any idea what's happening in the brain with the worms. 342 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.359 It's not necessarily like poking into the brain. I think 343 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.640 it's getting in the proximity of the brain. They're still 344 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:11.759 trying to work out what the chemicals are involved here, 345 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.759 But generally speaking, across these parasites, we're looking at things 346 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:20.640 like very reasonable, well known steps like dopamine, GABA, serotonin, 347 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.359 and these sorts of things that serve very different functions 348 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.599 and these different creatures across the tree of life, and 349 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:28.960 they do of course in the human brain. 350 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.599 And in the case of the crickets and the horse 351 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:35.839 hair worms. Studies like the twenty eleven Behavioral Ecology Journal 352 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:40.720 article water seeking behavior in worm infected crickets and Reversibility 353 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.720 of parasitic manipulation found that it wasn't necessarily a great 354 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:48.359 thirst for water that got the crickets to soak their butts, 355 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:53.200 but rather a modification of phototaxis or an attraction to light. 356 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.279 And given that these horse hair worms tend to taste 357 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:01.880 water and unfurl out of their hosts nocturnally, they think 358 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.559 the glimmering light of the moon on water maybe what 359 00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:09.279 gets the poor souls to just finally rid themselves of 360 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.400 their squirmy burdens via a moonlit skinny dip. 361 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:18.440 But it is a wildly complex manipulation that has evolved 362 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:22.880 again so many times independently. That's what's so fascinating to 363 00:20:22.960 --> 00:20:26.119 me about this is that, like it seems that this 364 00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:29.480 is just a tendency for biology to mind control, and 365 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.720 it actually makes a lot of sense because it's actually 366 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.519 an excellent strategy if you're trying to reproduce and pastor 367 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:36.920 genes along to the next generation. 368 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:39.440 Do they find that it occurs in all kinds of 369 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:43.559 biomes and environments, Like you talk to me about new Mexico, 370 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.759 and I think of a very arid place and looking 371 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:51.279 for water must be difficult for horsehair worms. But does 372 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:56.319 it happen more in extreme environments where resources are certain, 373 00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:58.920 habitats are scarce, or is this everywhere? 374 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:02.920 As far as I can tell, it's mostly everywhere. It's 375 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.200 so again because the science is so new, and because 376 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:09.640 these interactions are so complex, so I justn't really just 377 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:13.240 beginning to work their way through how much of this 378 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:16.559 is out there? Where it is, but so you know 379 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:20.039 it's in New Mexico. There are actually species of Affio 380 00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:24.640 Cordyceps that do this sort of manipulation in North Carolina, 381 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:26.720 in addition to the famous ones that we know of 382 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:30.880 around the tropics. This is very common among worms that 383 00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:35.079 infect crustaceans in lakes around the world. Doesn't matter where 384 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:40.400 those lakes are, it is so so pervasive. And again, 385 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.079 we're just the tip of the iceberg because we're stuck 386 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.799 in our own oom veldt here. We're kind of flailing 387 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:50.319 in a sense that we only really know our spectrum 388 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:53.319 of visible light right or the sounds that we can hear, 389 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:56.079 tastes that we can taste, and smells that we can smell. 390 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:58.720 There's a much more out there, I can guarantee you well. 391 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:03.720 Speaking of light, what other ways are the brains controlled? 392 00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.119 Is it through electrical impulses, Is it through the amount 393 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.119 of light they're getting, Is it neurochemicals, any idea other 394 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:14.359 ways that they're telling the brain to do different things. 395 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.599 I think a really good example here is these worms 396 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:23.680 called canthocephalins. These go after crustaceans known as amphipods in 397 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:25.079 freshwater lakes. 398 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:25.960 Amphipods. 399 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:28.799 There are over nine thousand species on the books, and 400 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:32.359 I did not know they existed until now rude, but 401 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.440