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<v Speaker 1>Ryan Walters has caused many headlines since becoming superintendent of

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<v Speaker 1>schools in Oklahoma. This time there are some consequences to

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<v Speaker 1>him tweaking the curriculum. Jonathan has the story.

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<v Speaker 2>Ryan Waters is the Oklahoma state Supervisor of Elections and

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<v Speaker 2>he's trying his best to lie about the performance of

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<v Speaker 2>the Oklahoma schools. First, he claimed he had nothing to

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<v Speaker 2>do with lowering the standards on state boosting scores by

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<v Speaker 2>thirty three percent, basically falsely. His underlings admitted that they

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<v Speaker 2>closely supervised the revision process and did not allow any

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<v Speaker 2>public comment, did not inform the school districts, and sought

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<v Speaker 2>no public input Sadly, the boost and proficiency was a lie.

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<v Speaker 2>When tested by the standards set to comply before the

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<v Speaker 2>change that were set to comply with the federal standards,

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<v Speaker 2>it is lower than ever. Oklahoma's forty ninth in education

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<v Speaker 2>in the United States. They're only better than New Mexico

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<v Speaker 2>and Alabama is actually better than them. It's like not

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<v Speaker 2>a good seat, not a good site, not a good

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<v Speaker 2>look for them. And this is an indirect attempt to

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<v Speaker 2>destroy public education in Oklahoma and do it without anybody noticing.

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<v Speaker 2>They're meeting their objective. As I said, they are forty

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<v Speaker 2>ninth and the K through twelve, and not just overall education,

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<v Speaker 2>but also in K through twelve. So a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>times the universities bring that number up but not but

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<v Speaker 2>not in the K through twelve here. So this story

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<v Speaker 2>is by Noria Martinez Kiel the Oklahoma Voice and printed

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<v Speaker 2>in the Oklahoma on eight twenty three, twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>I yield to the panel discussion.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, actually I was going to come to you, Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>at first, since you introduced the story. How does the

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<v Speaker 1>lack of transparency in the changes to the test scoring

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<v Speaker 1>effect public trust in educational assessments and government agents.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it obviously isn't good. But the problems, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the problem of lying this much about it, and this

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<v Speaker 2>on the heels of his story. We also already covered

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<v Speaker 2>about his putting a Bible in every classroom kind of

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<v Speaker 2>puts his and as we know, conservatives hate public education.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't serve their needs at all. It tends to

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<v Speaker 2>teach people how to think, and they don't want anybody

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<v Speaker 2>to think. They want them to just follow the propaganda

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<v Speaker 2>and not actually think for themselves. But this is that attempt.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's fraudulent, and it's going to end up really

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<v Speaker 2>irritating a lot of parents who now have to contend

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<v Speaker 2>with a school system that is not working for their

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<v Speaker 2>children because they're deliberately trying to sabotage it. They're in

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<v Speaker 2>a related move that we're not covering necessarily. But there's

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<v Speaker 2>another action that mister Walters did was to tie the

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<v Speaker 2>school's accreditation to the state to the test scores. So

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<v Speaker 2>though this will help them with their accreditation, there are

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of new rules underneath all these that well,

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<v Speaker 2>let's just say, is backed by churches but opposed by teachers.

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<v Speaker 2>So the checklist that they of these items is mandatory,

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<v Speaker 2>or the school gets a deficiency on their accreditation, many deficiencies,

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<v Speaker 2>and the school can be closed or taken over by

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<v Speaker 2>the state. So this is setting up local school districts

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<v Speaker 2>to fail, and they want them to fail because they'd

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<v Speaker 2>rather have them all going to religious schools privately. So

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<v Speaker 2>this is really a serious issue that we kind of

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<v Speaker 2>cover in a lot of our stories. But how long

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<v Speaker 2>are the parents of these kids going to tolerate this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of stuff. Eventually it's going to reach critical mass,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't think they're going to like the results

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<v Speaker 2>of that. Well, and that's kind of what I have

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<v Speaker 2>to say on it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, I'm always like a person that supports

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<v Speaker 1>a critical mass to make chain. But I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>if Oklahoma, or maybe the constituency there is really organizing

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<v Speaker 1>to do that. I but then again, you know, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just expressing my ignorance because I really don't know what

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<v Speaker 1>the advocacy and the activism on the ground to push

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<v Speaker 1>back against some of the policies that Ryan Walters is pushing.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, Scott, I'm coming to you because you're

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<v Speaker 1>an educator and you've been an educator for quite a time,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, I would like you just to, you know, answer,

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<v Speaker 1>what are the implications of loring performance standards on long

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<v Speaker 1>term educational outcomes for students that happen to be in Oklahoma?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I mean, if he had gotten away with it,

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<v Speaker 4>the short term impact would have been to artificially inflate

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<v Speaker 4>the effectiveness of their current policies.

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<v Speaker 3>Scott, I have to say it.

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<v Speaker 1>I do apologize he wi was gotten away with it

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<v Speaker 1>if it wasn't for those meddling kids, those kids, it's.

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<v Speaker 4>Old man Mahoney at the Haunted Good amusement park.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly, go ahead, continue.

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<v Speaker 4>So he's artificially I mean it's it's a misrepresentation, obviously,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's it's a deceit at the at the deepest level.

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<v Speaker 4>He's you know, Jonathan was talking about how he's deceiving

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<v Speaker 4>the public.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>They they lower the standard to make it look like

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<v Speaker 4>they're being more effective. And I think I'm presuming here,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know this for a fact, but I'm presuming

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<v Speaker 4>that it's too prop a up the other changes that

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<v Speaker 4>they're doing to say, Look how effective we are now.

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<v Speaker 4>Look how effective book banning is doing. Look how effective

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<v Speaker 4>it is now that we have the Ten Commandments in

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<v Speaker 4>the in the classrooms. Look how effective we are now

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<v Speaker 4>that we're incorporating Bible stories into our day to day

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<v Speaker 4>lessons and that kind of thing. And so it's just

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<v Speaker 4>artificial inflation. What does the effect that What effect does

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<v Speaker 4>that have on the education? It gives it. First of all,

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<v Speaker 4>it guts one of the main tools that educators have

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<v Speaker 4>to assess themselves and to assess how effective they are

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<v Speaker 4>with their students, and that is assessments rights, its responses

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<v Speaker 4>from testing, whether it be standardized testing, whether it be

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<v Speaker 4>testing in the classroom, whether it be written paper tests,

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<v Speaker 4>or whether it be activities or you know, it's just

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<v Speaker 4>totally invalidating all of those efforts to improve. I think

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think I'm going out on a limb here

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<v Speaker 4>when I say that educators generally go into the field

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<v Speaker 4>because they care, because they want to do well. They

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<v Speaker 4>want to do they want to help children, they want

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<v Speaker 4>to empower children, they want to you know, teach them things.

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<v Speaker 4>They want them to be in an enlightened and educated citizenry. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>it's good for the country, it's good for the individuals,

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<v Speaker 4>it's good for the neighborhoods, it's good for the local government,

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<v Speaker 4>it's good for it's good for everybody. And so so

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<v Speaker 4>what this is doing is it's just taking away the

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<v Speaker 4>effectiveness of those of those methods. As teachers, we like

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<v Speaker 4>to talk about critical reflection. We want we want to

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<v Speaker 4>look back at ourselves, we want to look back at

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<v Speaker 4>what we're doing, and if we can change things to

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<v Speaker 4>make them better then we can't, then we do that.

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<v Speaker 4>And so this is not only is this covering up

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<v Speaker 4>a problem that was there. I think Jonathan said they

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<v Speaker 4>were forty ninth in the state. Yeah, rah rah, right,

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<v Speaker 4>and so it's covering up a problem that was there,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's also making the problem look like it's a

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<v Speaker 4>good thing. And so it's kind of giving them a

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<v Speaker 4>free path, or it would have, if it had worked,

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<v Speaker 4>given him a pass to incorporate more of these changes

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<v Speaker 4>that will also undermine the educational system even further. And

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<v Speaker 4>like you both mentioned, I would have to assume that

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<v Speaker 4>part of the goal at least is to get rid

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<v Speaker 4>of public education. And so it's it's I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 4>very callous, and it's very devious, and you know, it's

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<v Speaker 4>almost almost too cruel to imagine to do something like

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<v Speaker 4>to to take away a child's ability to become a

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<v Speaker 4>better human being, to learn how to become a more

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<v Speaker 4>productive member of society, to take away their power to

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<v Speaker 4>make their lives better. And that's really what it's doing.

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<v Speaker 4>That's the ultimate cost that education can pay can pay

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<v Speaker 4>here is we will lose the effectiveness of the educational

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<v Speaker 4>system we have, and we will in fact even roll

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<v Speaker 4>back even further and make it even less effective.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Cindy, you are on the outside looking in, all

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<v Speaker 1>safe and tucked away in a different country, but I

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<v Speaker 1>know that you definitely pay attention to a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that are going on here in the good

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<v Speaker 1>old us of a American apple pie the four by four.

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<v Speaker 1>So anyway, forget the guns, Jesus, guns and babies, right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>gotta get that straight, my bad guys. But you know, Sindy,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just wondering because, like you know, since you like

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<v Speaker 1>pay attention to a lot of these things that's going on,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you really think I think that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Scott alluded to it a bit, but can you expand

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<v Speaker 1>on really what the motivation is behind the I call

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<v Speaker 1>the Shenanigans in Old Colahoma. I'm not going to sing

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of the song because I don't know the

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<v Speaker 1>rest of the words, so I'm just not going to

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<v Speaker 1>do it and embarrass myself.

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<v Speaker 3>But what is it?

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<v Speaker 1>What is the motivation behind, you know, doing the things

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<v Speaker 1>that they are doing when it's quite obvious that well,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess to us that happens to be on the

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<v Speaker 1>other side of the looking class. This is detrimental and

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<v Speaker 1>harmful to the kid.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, on top of everything that Scott said, and I

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<v Speaker 5>think was very very much on point, there's another side

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<v Speaker 5>of this. Let's say that this worked and nobody noticed

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<v Speaker 5>what happens to the students once they leave those schools

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<v Speaker 5>and go to a university, they will be behind everyone

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<v Speaker 5>else because they think they did very good and they

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<v Speaker 5>think they have the level to be in a university

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<v Speaker 5>and they don't. And what happens they feel like they

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<v Speaker 5>don't belong here, and they feel bad about themselves, and

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<v Speaker 5>then they feel like they're stupid and not deserving of

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<v Speaker 5>more education. And I'm wondering if it's an intended purpose

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<v Speaker 5>or if it's just a sad consequence. But I think

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<v Speaker 5>that's something we need to take a look at, because

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<v Speaker 5>if this keeps going in the future, whether it's this

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<v Speaker 5>specific action or any other that's the Republican r are taking,

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<v Speaker 5>the United States is going to be very very much

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<v Speaker 5>behind in terms of workforce. In terms of education, of course,

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<v Speaker 5>which is already the case, but yeah, workforce economics, because

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<v Speaker 5>economics are linked to the workforce, which is linked to

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<v Speaker 5>the education. And so I think it was a couple

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<v Speaker 5>of years ago that China to the first place in

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<v Speaker 5>terms of scientific commulications, and I don't see that specific

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<v Speaker 5>story helping in this situation. So yeah, I think, as

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<v Speaker 5>as Scott said, the Republicans survive on an uneducated base.

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<v Speaker 5>That's how they've been surviving in the last two years,

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<v Speaker 5>and so they do everything they can to keep that going.

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<v Speaker 4>Last fifty years.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I was very much. I would say that's even longer.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, guys, this is not in my notes,

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<v Speaker 1>but I did read this little document called Project twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 2>And one.

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<v Speaker 3>There are nine hundred and twenty five pages.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, well, I'm not going to say that I read

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<v Speaker 1>through all nine hundred twenty five pages, but I did

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<v Speaker 1>go through the contents, and I would go back and

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<v Speaker 1>forth and skip and skim and things of that nature.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know, one of the things that is in

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<v Speaker 1>Project twenty twenty five, and it's also on you know,

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<v Speaker 1>on the on the darket as far as like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>platform items for people who happen to be conservative on

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<v Speaker 1>the right is to get rid of the Department of Education.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm always like concerned because like one of the

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<v Speaker 1>talking points is let's get rid of the Department of

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<v Speaker 1>Education on the federal level and lead the decisions on

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<v Speaker 1>how to run schools to the state, including having parents

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<v Speaker 1>be able to utilize I guess text dollars to do

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<v Speaker 1>school choice. But you know, I'm curious and to know,

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<v Speaker 1>and especially since we're looking at stories like this from

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<v Speaker 1>a person, a superintendent that has clearly demonstrated and said

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<v Speaker 1>out of his mouth that he is a Christian national

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<v Speaker 1>what type of really horrible, horrendous implications could this have

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<v Speaker 1>if there is no oversight or regulatory body over education

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<v Speaker 1>on the federal level.

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<v Speaker 3>And do you all see.

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<v Speaker 1>His actions kind of fulfilling that that wishless that the

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<v Speaker 1>that the project has implicated. Jonathan, I'm going to start

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<v Speaker 1>with you, and then Scott and then Cindy. I would

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<v Speaker 1>like to hear your thoughts.

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<v Speaker 3>Well.

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<v Speaker 2>First off, this is this is a process that they've

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<v Speaker 2>been already implementing. As we see here the UH the

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<v Speaker 2>accredit accreditation changes I look through kind of indicate this.

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<v Speaker 2>So it would penalize districts that maintain active employment of

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<v Speaker 2>teachers under investigation for certificate or vocation. That's one thing.

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<v Speaker 2>There's quite a few. I'm going to skip some of them.

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<v Speaker 2>But the other thing it would do is districts would

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<v Speaker 2>not be able to receive state funding if they support

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<v Speaker 2>or maintain certain diversity you know, DEI programs.

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<v Speaker 3>UH.

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<v Speaker 2>And so that means that kind of tells you where

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<v Speaker 2>they're going with.

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<v Speaker 1>The moment, John, I just want to actually tell the

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<v Speaker 1>audience for those who do not know what de I means,

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<v Speaker 1>that needs diversity, equity and inclusion.

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<v Speaker 3>Continue.

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<v Speaker 2>Please, yes, my brain had a hole for that just

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<v Speaker 2>and would subject teachers to potential dismissal for sexual acts

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<v Speaker 2>and this is not in school. This is sexual acts

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<v Speaker 2>or acts that appeal to the period interest in sex

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<v Speaker 2>as found by the average person applying contemporary community standards,

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<v Speaker 2>or acts that excessively promote sexuality. They can be refused.

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<v Speaker 2>Employment critics say it could be used as grounds to

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<v Speaker 2>terminate teachers who engage in after hours activities like drag performances,

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<v Speaker 2>if those performances were recorded and put online. And there

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<v Speaker 2>are some people who say that that, you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>my comments, I said, you know, this could mean that

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<v Speaker 2>if somebody happens to catch you at home watching Rupe

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<v Speaker 2>Paul's drag race, they could fire, you know, if they

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<v Speaker 2>could twist this to make it firable New America.

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<v Speaker 4>Welcome to America. Freedom to do.

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<v Speaker 2>What you want in your own time, or they catch

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<v Speaker 2>you watching a porn channel or something. You know, none

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<v Speaker 2>of those things.

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<v Speaker 3>I lived in Oklahoma.

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<v Speaker 1>They would have fired me a long time ago, because

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<v Speaker 1>I love that damn show. But you know, Jonathan, can

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<v Speaker 1>you spend this a little bit, because it almost sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like that what you're saying is that they're trying to

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<v Speaker 1>penalize you for either being allied or being part of

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<v Speaker 1>the LGBTQ community and also living your troop out lot.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that what That's what I'm That's.

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<v Speaker 2>What I'm they want to they want to suppress that,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm quite sure because these rules are rather draconian if

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<v Speaker 2>you think about it, And if districts fail to comply

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<v Speaker 2>after receiving notice from the department, they will receive an

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<v Speaker 2>accreditation deficiency as well. So it's like, you know, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>it would strike from existing rules on local school boards

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<v Speaker 2>that board members shall refrain from involvement or interference with

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<v Speaker 2>the administrative functions of the school. That means the school

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<v Speaker 2>boards could come around and say, you can't do that, No,

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<v Speaker 2>we want it this way. Take the power out of

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<v Speaker 2>the principle and the teachers and start my managing what's

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<v Speaker 2>going on. And so yeah, yes, you want.

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<v Speaker 3>To well follow, do you want to follow what gets worth? Sure? Sure?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, okay, So let me give me a second here,

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<v Speaker 4>I gotta catch my breath. Okay, all right too. So

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<v Speaker 4>so you were asking about I'm sorry, could you repeat

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<v Speaker 4>the question.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, basically I was asking, you know, with Project twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five and the right basically allowing themselves to get

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<v Speaker 1>rid of the Department of Education on the federal level. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>what kind of implications could this have? Like detrimental implications

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<v Speaker 1>could this have, you know, on kids, you know, especially

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<v Speaker 1>who happened to attend public schools.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that attacking the indirectly attacking the Department of Education,

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<v Speaker 4>I think I'm not entirely convinced that that's either the

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<v Speaker 4>main goal or even one of the main goals here.

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<v Speaker 4>That might just be, you know, great, right, that's just

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<v Speaker 4>a fringe benefit. I think what's really happening here, and

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<v Speaker 4>again this is my opinion, but what I think is

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<v Speaker 4>happening is that Oklahoma lawmakers they just want to operate

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<v Speaker 4>in this fictional world, and and they want to they

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<v Speaker 4>want to dictate how things operate, and they want to

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<v Speaker 4>enforce that perception of that fictional world onto others as well. Gaslighting.

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<v Speaker 4>That's I mean, this is really just high stakes gaslighting.

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<v Speaker 4>And so the problem is the drawback to that is effectiveness.

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<v Speaker 4>Educational effectiveness be damned, right, I mean it's like, that's

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<v Speaker 4>not it's hard to imagine that that would be a

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<v Speaker 4>consideration at all. It's all about how do we look

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<v Speaker 4>and what can we do with it? And you know

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<v Speaker 4>that is just misguided leadership right there. You know, it's

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<v Speaker 4>it would be hard to make up something worse than that.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, it's just sacrificing the kid's futures in order

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<v Speaker 4>to enforce this story that you know, they they can't

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<v Speaker 4>back it up themselves, you know, their their religious stories.

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<v Speaker 4>They can't justify that kind of belief and so but

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<v Speaker 4>what they can do is they can kind of morph

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<v Speaker 4>the rest of the world back into their viewpoint. And

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<v Speaker 4>you know, like I said, education be damned, and it's

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<v Speaker 4>it's really infuriating and asinine.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm going to give the semi last word to Sindy. Cindy,

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<v Speaker 1>say what say you?

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<v Speaker 5>I remember in twenty sixteen, after Trump was elected, I

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<v Speaker 5>read this fascinating article explaining how and why Trump won

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<v Speaker 5>back then in red states and mostly rural areas. It's

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<v Speaker 5>because but by destroying the education system in these places,

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<v Speaker 5>the only source of information the public has is the

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<v Speaker 5>church and so if you don't have enough information about

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<v Speaker 5>why you are in a city cuation, then the only

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<v Speaker 5>source of information again comes becomes the church. And and

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<v Speaker 5>that's the point of christoph fascism. It's to give back

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<v Speaker 5>UH center place to to to the church, not in

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<v Speaker 5>terms of not only in terms of you know, society

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<v Speaker 5>and and and UH and and community and everything else,

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<v Speaker 5>but also information because when you countrol information, of course

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<v Speaker 5>you control uh the entire population. And I think it's

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<v Speaker 5>uh it's basically what's what's happening here again, it's just

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<v Speaker 5>more and more of the same stuff, just cultural information

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<v Speaker 5>from uh, from the people you want to uh to to,

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<v Speaker 5>not to lead, but to control. And so that's that's

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<v Speaker 5>the only way to do it. To destroy education.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I definitely adhere exactly what you guys are saying,

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<v Speaker 1>especially when it comes to if you want to control

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<v Speaker 1>the mind of the people who happen to be under

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<v Speaker 1>you destroy the institutions that educate them. And when test

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<v Speaker 1>scores suddenly improve, but it's due to altered benchmarks rather

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<v Speaker 1>than real student gains, it's a red flag.

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<v Speaker 4>Even covering up actual student losses. It's not just false gains,

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<v Speaker 4>it's covering up losses, and so it's even worse.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly, it's it's covering up the losses that happen to,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, come to those who are not getting the

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<v Speaker 1>proper education that there's that they're supposed to get, oftentimes

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<v Speaker 1>because the curricula and also the benchmarks for them for

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<v Speaker 1>their achievements are being altered. But schools, parents and lawmakers

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<v Speaker 1>deserve clear and upfront information because when it comes to education,

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<v Speaker 1>the only thing worse than Perer performance is a lack

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<v Speaker 1>of honesty about what the numbers really mean. So let's remember,

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<v Speaker 1>if something sounds too good to be true, it might

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<v Speaker 1>just be a change in the rules. Always ask what's

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<v Speaker 1>the real score?